EPTUK Politics Mega-thread - Page 85
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RvB
Netherlands6294 Posts
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KwarK
United States44195 Posts
On June 12 2016 05:53 kollin wrote: You can use the power of words yes, but you can't invite the prime minister over for afternoon tea. To say that Prince Charles has no more ability to influence the government as you or I pretty clearly isn't true, and he certainly wasn't elected into the position he holds. The fact our head of state is chosen by accident of birth is inherently undemocratic, and while it's hard to imagine the current queen using any of the powers that she does theoretically hold, but the fact she holds them in the first time just underlines my point. Some people have more friends, money and influence than others. Prince Charles doesn't send these letters in his capacity as a royal, nor should he, but as a private individual I have absolutely no issue with him voicing opinions. That said I fully expect that when he takes the throne he will follow his mother's example and be silent on all matters. Honestly I think you really have no idea how any of these institutions work. The fact that you attack the monarchy as being undemocratic because the 5th in line for the throne wore a Nazi outfit at a fancy dress party or because Charles wrote a letter that anyone could have written is really baffling to me. Democracy means the will of the people. Undemocratic would be perverting the will of the people. Fancy dress costumes cannot really be undemocratic. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
The UK is a great democracy tho. That's why they need to leave the europe, please do it. Make me happy. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
But I prefer the french way, and I hate when they talk about the queen, the king and the heir of the throne of england in France : we cut their head off and we're better this way. | ||
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KwarK
United States44195 Posts
On June 12 2016 06:24 kollin wrote: I attack the democracy as undemocratic because the head of the British state is the Queen, and she is not elected but born into her position. I pointed out the Nazi costume and particularly the letters as examples of the royals misusing their position. Another example could be the queen choosing Macmillan as the Prime Minister over Rab Butler in 1957. I'm not saying the monarchy is a dictatorship, but it's definitely not truly democratic either. Misusing their position? How is wearing a Nazi costume at a private fancy dress party misusing the position of being, at the time, 3rd in line for the throne? If you put your arguments in the form "How can you say we live in a democracy when [monarch/X in line for the throne] can [act] with nothing more than the privileges of their birth?" they look really, really silly. For example "How can you say we live in a democracy when the 5th in line for the throne can go to a fancy dress party dressed as a Nazi with nothing more than the privileges of the birth?" The response being "that's dumb as fuck m8" or "How can you say we live in a democracy when the 1st in line for the throne can write letters to public officials with nothing more than the privileges of birth?" The response being "in a democracy all people can do that". Not only is it not a dictatorship, it's not even an issue. Let me know when they actually use the privileges of their birth to undermine the will of the people. Fancy dress parties don't count. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
I gave you an example of where the Queen exerted her own will, rather than the will of the people. What I said before was stupid, but the head of state being decided by birth is undemocratic by definition. The issue isn't that the Queen at the moment is misusing her position, but to suggest a future monarch would never do that or couldn't do that is untrue. Furthermore, if a taxpayer would disagree with the X in line to the throne exerting their political will not just as a private citizen but as a representative of that taxpayer, or the X in line to the throne dressing as a Nazi there is nothing that taxpayer can do but continue to fund their existence simply due to an accident of birth. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On June 12 2016 06:30 kollin wrote: I'll pass on the historic values of inbreeding and colonialism I gave you an example of where the Queen exerted her own will, rather than the will of the people. What I said before was stupid, but the head of state being decided by birth is undemocratic by definition. The issue isn't that the Queen at the moment is misusing her position, but to suggest a future monarch would never do that or couldn't do that is untrue. Furthermore, if a taxpayer would disagree with the X in line to the throne exerting their political will not just as a private citizen but as a representative of that taxpayer, or the X in line to the throne dressing as a Nazi there is nothing that taxpayer can do but continue to fund their existence simply due to an accident of birth. That's your leftist vision : it's about stability, conservatism, roots. It's important for many people and for all societies, altho most prefer not incarnating those value through the face of an old woman. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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KwarK
United States44195 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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KwarK
United States44195 Posts
You could call them obsolete or pointless or just plain ugly (if you wanted to be mean) but they're not especially undemocratic. They're the democratic remnant of an undemocratic institution. Far more democratic than the Lords which actually has a role in the legislative process. They're a long way down the list of democratic reforms which starts with fixing constituency first past the post. The royals are essentially architecture at this point. We have all these cool old buildings and funny hats and so forth and we need them to keep it all running because who the fuck else are we going to have a funeral for in Westminster Abbey? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9950 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10154 Posts
On June 12 2016 08:09 Nyxisto wrote: I also wouldn't underestimate the usefulness of these monarchic institutions. Juan Carlos played a very important role in helping Spain transition from the Franco regime to the democracy. Don't get me started ... But if backing out of a coupe d'etat is helping, sure, we could call it that way. And corruption runs rampart on the spanish royal family, so it's not really an example that i would make as usefulness. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On June 12 2016 08:47 Godwrath wrote: Don't get me started ... But if backing out of a coupe d'etat is helping, sure, we could call it that way. And corruption runs rampart on the spanish royal family, so it's not really an example that i would make as usefulness. All the nasty stuff is a comparatively small ill compared to the outcome of Spain's pretty successful transition. It's not like smoothly going from dictatorship to democracy has a terribly high success rate. It's easy to blame all of the old institutions but they have their place. The regions in East Germany that had no religious institutions left have not adopted well after the reunification. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
http://www.polity.co.uk/book.asp?ref=9780745646213 Wow just found out Bauman actually likes Michéa. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4429 Posts
On June 12 2016 02:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You seem very emotionallycharged for someone purporting to give a prediction on the referendum. You should calm down a little. You also seem rather fixated on the word "flakiest". Those who will vote will vote. Also who exactly is this "you" which you keep refering to? "You" is of course, the guy i am quoting? I think many here are underestimating the significance of the vote, but if you can explain to me how net migration of 300,000+ per year does anything other than suppress wages and increase rents and house prices via supply/demand then explain it to me.From what i see those are two of the biggest reasons why the rich want to remain and also why many on the left are now backing leave. | ||
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