EPTNot only that, he's doing so with a complete lack of any charisma, or allies with charisma.
I would say he's pretty brave.
UK Politics Mega-thread - Page 84
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9847 Posts
Not only that, he's doing so with a complete lack of any charisma, or allies with charisma. I would say he's pretty brave. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On June 11 2016 09:26 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The point is remain is relying far more on the flakiest voters.The youth vote and the ethnic minority vote will always have far lower turnout than those 65+. Like you said look at the scottish result, decided by 65+ worried about losing their pension. Questions Who has the momentum? Which side appears more enthusiastic? What direction are those 65+ leaning? What is your point? That the vote is determined by white 65+ therefore leave will be the result? But lets indulge you by answering your questions as related to the Scottish referendum. 1) Momentum is a meaningless metric for reality of voting on the day. It's only a buzzword for describing changes recorded by innacurate voting polls. Momentum was overwhelmingly described with being for "Yes". 2 )"Yes" was overwhelmingly more enthusiastic. To the point that in these forums, they were already celebrating, until the result came in. 3) The majority of 65+ voted "No". Actual outcome was "No". What can you learn from this? Pointless metrics will always be pointless. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8081 Posts
On June 11 2016 20:28 Jockmcplop wrote: Corbyn is an outsider taking on a massively funded, well trained and entrenched political machine. Not only that, he's doing so with a complete lack of any charisma, or allies with charisma. I would say he's pretty brave. I think the main problem is that the media somewhat decided to sabotage his leadership. I really like Corbyn. He is rerouting the labour to the left, where it belongs. You don't need to be left yourself to recognize the need for a left and a right party in a functioning democracy, and since the New Labour, English people have the choice between right, centre right, a liberal right and now a far right party. Also if Corbyn doesn't have the charisma a Johnson displays, he has a phenomenal integrity (maybe that's the problem?) which is really refreshing. He is principled, and says what he thinks. I am quite pessimistic on the outcome, because when you have the tabloids, the Murdoch press and the BBC firing at you constantly with newspapers of your side such as the Guardian being for the least ambivalent, you are a bit fucked. Like in most places, I think the media is not independent enough in the UK, and that it is an actual threat to a healthy political life. Now maybe you are right, and the party is simply not ready to shift further to the left at the moment. Corbyn does seem isolated, and it also has to do with the fact that many in the Labour simply reject his leadership. In any case, the rebirth of a left wing voice in English politics will be a long road it seems, if it ever happens. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9847 Posts
I just think he needs allies who are able to captivate an audience when they speak. Someone who can sway undecideds. Someone young, intelligent and brilliant. These people are out there, but instead we're stuck with the likes of Diane Abbott, who might as well be constantly taking a massive shit on Corbyn's prospects with her reactionary, insane left wing shouting. He needs a Mhairi Black, basically. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Like in most places, I think the media is not independent enough in the UK, and that it is an actual threat to a healthy political life. Yes and no. I think that the problem is that far too many people read (and believe) bullshitpapers like Daily Mail, Sun etc. Like, they're literally cancerous. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9847 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4416 Posts
On June 11 2016 20:53 Dangermousecatdog wrote: What is your point? That the vote is determined by white 65+ therefore leave will be the result? But lets indulge you by answering your questions as related to the Scottish referendum. 1) Momentum is a meaningless metric for reality of voting on the day. It's only a buzzword for describing changes recorded by innacurate voting polls. Momentum was overwhelmingly described with being for "Yes". 2 )"Yes" was overwhelmingly more enthusiastic. To the point that in these forums, they were already celebrating, until the result came in. 3) The majority of 65+ voted "No". Actual outcome was "No". What can you learn from this? Pointless metrics will always be pointless. My point is, if you're relying on the flakiest voters to win you a referendum you're in for disappointment.I wouldn't be calling the 53% turnout for 18-24s in the scottish poll enthusiasm, compared to the 92% turnout for over 85s? Good luck getting the youth energised enough to vote because we all know the old timers will be out in numbers. | ||
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
Admittedly my only real life experience is when a vote leave person said I should vote leave because they don't want immigrants in the UK to me (who happens to be ethnically Chinese) because then more Brits wouldn't have to compete for jobs, terrorists would have a harder time getting in, and houses would get cheaper. And my only media exposure has been snippets of various televised debates, which judging by Jeremy Hunt's "interpretation" of evidence means they are on the "make anything up to suit my own agenda" tier of evidence. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On June 12 2016 01:43 MoonfireSpam wrote: Haven't really seen a convincing argument to vote either way. Seems to be standard PR from two sides of the same turd with a garnish of random anti immigration / terrorism. Colour me a member of the disenfranchised youth and mostly still too pissed off at the whole Hunt vs All Doctor shit that has been swept back under the carpet. Admittedly my only real life experience is when a vote leave person said I should vote leave because they don't want immigrants in the UK to me (who happens to be ethnically Chinese) because then more Brits wouldn't have to compete for jobs, terrorists would have a harder time getting in, and houses would get cheaper. And my only media exposure has been snippets of various televised debates, which judging by Jeremy Hunt's "interpretation" of evidence means they are on the "make anything up to suit my own agenda" tier of evidence. Plenty of arguments for both sides. Remain has an edge on short term economics, Leave on immigration and democracy. But surely you have some instinct as to your political stance on the EU? As far as I'm concerned it's either a vote to encourage an undemocratic institution with aims of creating a superstate regardless of the cost, or a vote to topple it, assuming, or at least hoping, that other EU countries follow us out. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On June 11 2016 22:30 Jockmcplop wrote: Literally? Yes, literally. Read up what cancerous means. Hint: there's more to that word than a pathological condition. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On June 11 2016 23:21 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: You seem very emotionallycharged for someone purporting to give a prediction on the referendum. You should calm down a little. You also seem rather fixated on the word "flakiest". Those who will vote will vote. Also who exactly is this "you" which you keep refering to?My point is, if you're relying on the flakiest voters to win you a referendum you're in for disappointment.I wouldn't be calling the 53% turnout for 18-24s in the scottish poll enthusiasm, compared to the 92% turnout for over 85s? Good luck getting the youth energised enough to vote because we all know the old timers will be out in numbers. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On June 12 2016 02:46 m4ini wrote: Yes, literally. Read up what cancerous means. Hint: there's more to that word than a pathological condition. No, not when use "literally cancerous". It doesn't mean what you think it means, no matter what linguistical hurdles you leap through. Otherwise you would use "cancerous" alone. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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KwarK
United States43989 Posts
On June 12 2016 03:30 kollin wrote: I wonder if all the people arguing that the EU is I democratic will be so passionate about removing both the House of Lords and the monarchy after the referendum - especially as they both give us far fewer benefits than the EU The monarchy has been a democratic institution for over a hundred years at this point. As for the House of Lords, reform is already on the table and has been being implemented for decades. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
Also while House of Lords reform is being put in place, I was more highlighting the wilful ignorance of a lot of Leave supporters to the problems in our own democracy as well as to the extent that the EU is democratic. | ||
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KwarK
United States43989 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2015/may/13/read-the-prince-charles-black-spider-memos-in-full | ||
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KwarK
United States43989 Posts
On June 12 2016 05:07 kollin wrote: What about Prince Charles using his position of power to lobby the cabinet? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2015/may/13/read-the-prince-charles-black-spider-memos-in-full And which powers did he use to lobby them? Out of curiousity, which powers do you think Prince Charles has? It looks to me a lot like he used the power of words to lobby them. I have that power too. Did he offer them perks at his disposal as prince? Or to use his influence to damage them or help them? You seem to be intent on attacking the monarchy as undemocratic but writing letters as a private citizen or wearing fancy dress costumes just aren't ammunition for the case you're making. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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