In order to ensure that this thread meets TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we ask that everyone please adhere to this mod note.
Posts containing only Tweets or articles adds nothing to the discussions. Therefore, when providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments will be actioned upon.
All in all, please continue to enjoy posting in TL General and partake in discussions as much as you want! But please be respectful when posting or replying to someone. There is a clear difference between constructive criticism/discussion and just plain being rude and insulting.
On May 21 2016 03:34 Shield wrote: Almost a month until the referendum. Then, Farage and Boris Johnson may finally shut up.
Well, I'm not that sure.
Amazing display of cynicism by Cameron for setting up this shit in the first place, knowing himself very well that a Brexit would be an utter disaster for everyone.
They say he wanted to save his party, which is a bit dumb when you think of party more than country itself. On the other hand, some people wanted to vote... so they got what they asked for. There's nothing wrong with referendum because it's democracy, but provided that you have intelligent voters. I'm not sure Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are intelligent though.
On May 21 2016 03:34 Shield wrote: Almost a month until the referendum. Then, Farage and Boris Johnson may finally shut up.
Well, I'm not that sure.
Amazing display of cynicism by Cameron for setting up this shit in the first place, knowing himself very well that a Brexit would be an utter disaster for everyone.
They say he wanted to save his party, which is a bit dumb when you think of party more than country itself. On the other hand, some people wanted to vote... so they got what they asked for. There's nothing wrong with referendum because it's democracy, but provided that you have intelligent voters. I'm not sure Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are intelligent though.
On May 21 2016 03:34 Shield wrote: Almost a month until the referendum. Then, Farage and Boris Johnson may finally shut up.
Well, I'm not that sure.
Amazing display of cynicism by Cameron for setting up this shit in the first place, knowing himself very well that a Brexit would be an utter disaster for everyone.
They say he wanted to save his party, which is a bit dumb when you think of party more than country itself. On the other hand, some people wanted to vote... so they got what they asked for. There's nothing wrong with referendum because it's democracy, but provided that you have intelligent voters. I'm not sure Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage are intelligent though.
He certainly wants to save himself. It's a gambit: he saw it as a way to get reelected, hoping that people would say no anyway. He succeded the first half. Pity that what he is putting in line for his and his party's personal gain is the future of the country, and Europe incidentally...
Funny thing is you're unable to assess the real matter which is that people are willing to vote against europe in a country that does not even have the euro, and that the only argument against the brexit is the economic trouble it would create. Is it that grave that Cameron ask citizens to give their point of view on europe ? Democracy is really the new ennemy of europeanist... ha the desire to be part of an empire is strong.
The first 20 minutes seems especially strange to me. The faceless bureaucrats that you have no power over seems pretty strange. Mostly focuses on trade and then compares it to Switzerland later.
On May 21 2016 07:22 WhiteDog wrote: Funny thing is you're unable to assess the real matter which is that people are willing to vote against europe in a country that does not even have the euro, and that the only argument against the brexit is the economic trouble it would create. Is it that grave that Cameron ask citizens to give their point of view on europe ? Democracy is really the new ennemy of europeanist... ha the desire to be part of an empire is strong.
You talk a lot of bullshit in my opinion. There are multiple benefits of EU which aren't economical only. For example, paid maternity leave, food quality, etc. Why don't you read http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#wjb6z7qRwwcpvQvV.97 ? I'm not into this kind of arguments, but they have given some reasons to support EU. And no, democracy isn't an enemy and it will never be.
On May 21 2016 07:22 WhiteDog wrote: Funny thing is you're unable to assess the real matter which is that people are willing to vote against europe in a country that does not even have the euro, and that the only argument against the brexit is the economic trouble it would create. Is it that grave that Cameron ask citizens to give their point of view on europe ? Democracy is really the new ennemy of europeanist... ha the desire to be part of an empire is strong.
You talk a lot of bullshit in my opinion. There are multiple benefits of EU which aren't economic. For example, paid maternity leave, food quality, etc. Why don't you read http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#wjb6z7qRwwcpvQvV.97 ? I'm not into this kind of arguments, but they have given some reasons to support EU. And no, democracy isn't an enemy and it will never be.
You read weirdly, congratulation in responding to things I did not say, and arguing against points I did not made. I was responding to previous comments. Funny ass propaganda by the way.
On May 21 2016 07:22 WhiteDog wrote: Funny thing is you're unable to assess the real matter which is that people are willing to vote against europe in a country that does not even have the euro, and that the only argument against the brexit is the economic trouble it would create. Is it that grave that Cameron ask citizens to give their point of view on europe ? Democracy is really the new ennemy of europeanist... ha the desire to be part of an empire is strong.
You talk a lot of bullshit in my opinion. There are multiple benefits of EU which aren't economic. For example, paid maternity leave, food quality, etc. Why don't you read http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#wjb6z7qRwwcpvQvV.97 ? I'm not into this kind of arguments, but they have given some reasons to support EU. And no, democracy isn't an enemy and it will never be.
You read weirdly, congratulation in responding to things I did not say, and arguing against points I did not made. I was responding to previous comments. Funny ass propaganda by the way.
You either have amnesia or you can't read your own post. Your own post is:
A. against EU (you compare it to an empire) B. implying there isn't much point for the UK to stay in EU other than economical gain C. making fun of democracy or you're trying to be funny
I've definitely addressed A and B. Let's see how others read your post.
On May 21 2016 07:22 WhiteDog wrote: Funny thing is you're unable to assess the real matter which is that people are willing to vote against europe in a country that does not even have the euro, and that the only argument against the brexit is the economic trouble it would create. Is it that grave that Cameron ask citizens to give their point of view on europe ? Democracy is really the new ennemy of europeanist... ha the desire to be part of an empire is strong.
You talk a lot of bullshit in my opinion. There are multiple benefits of EU which aren't economic. For example, paid maternity leave, food quality, etc. Why don't you read http://www.strongerin.co.uk/get_the_facts#wjb6z7qRwwcpvQvV.97 ? I'm not into this kind of arguments, but they have given some reasons to support EU. And no, democracy isn't an enemy and it will never be.
You read weirdly, congratulation in responding to things I did not say, and arguing against points I did not made. I was responding to previous comments. Funny ass propaganda by the way.
You either have amnesia or you can't read your own post. Your own post is:
A. against EU (you compare it to an empire) B. implying there isn't much point for the UK to stay in EU other than economical gain C. making fun of democracy or you're trying to be funny
I've definitely addressed A and B. Let's see how others read your post.
A. No, I was talking to previous poster ("you're unable to assess the real matter") ; I was openly questionning the reason why people are willing to vote against the EU (even when they don't have the euro). The idea of an "empire" was referring to the fact that people, much like you it seem, who are for europe, have basically one argument and that is that bigger is better (more trade, more x, more y); B. I never implied that, you don't know how to read. I was responding to few prior comments that basically argue that leaving europe is "bad for everyone", like fear mongering is sufficient. If a certain portion of the population is willing to leave the EU, then you have to understand why and adress that, not just satisfy yourself into thinking that people who are against are just either ill informed or stupid ; that's called democracy. C. ????? you drunk ? My comment about "democracy" was clearly a response to the people that criticize Cameron for his decision to propose a referendum on europe, like democracy (asking the people) is a problem.
I don't think there is a problem with how I read, but rather how you've expressed your opinion. It's definitely not written in a clear way. Same for your post about islam. It's absolutely unclear what you mean. It can be understood in more than one way.
On May 21 2016 08:10 Shield wrote: I don't think there is a problem with how I read, but rather how you've expressed your opinion. It's definitely not written in a clear way. Same for your post about islam. It's absolutely unclear what you mean. It can be understood in more than one way.
There is only way to understand it, and that is that there is too much hypocrisy when people talk about islam. That's it, stop trying to find more than there is in a comment, if I wanted to argue in length about the topic, I would have. I am just pointing out what I find amusing the other's comment, which is the hypocrisy (that push people to compare the bikini to the burqa for exemple, like the two are alike).
Both sides of the EU referendum debate have completely cancelled each other out using the modern political PR paradigm of appealing to the most extreme elements with transparently deliberate 'controversial' statements while trying to confuse everyone else with a whole barrel load of meaningless statistics, endorsements and the like. The British public aren't that stupid though so the same thing will happen as usual, where everyone who already had a side will vote for that side and most of everyone else will think fuck it its too hard to get proper facts and either vote with their gut instinct or just fuck the whole thing off and not bother. Politics the last couple of years seems to be completely geared up to keep intelligent people from making an informed decision, and just shouting horrible shit for the extremists.
On May 21 2016 20:03 Jockmcplop wrote: Both sides of the EU referendum debate have completely cancelled each other out using the modern political PR paradigm of appealing to the most extreme elements with transparently deliberate 'controversial' statements while trying to confuse everyone else with a whole barrel load of meaningless statistics, endorsements and the like. The British public aren't that stupid though so the same thing will happen as usual, where everyone who already had a side will vote for that side and most of everyone else will think fuck it its too hard to get proper facts and either vote with their gut instinct or just fuck the whole thing off and not bother. Politics the last couple of years seems to be completely geared up to keep intelligent people from making an informed decision, and just shouting horrible shit for the extremists.
I used to think the public aren't that stupid but the referendum on adopting the 'alternative vote' system made me question that. The public voted against it, and from what I can tell it was mostly because of hatred of Nick Clegg (who supported the alternative vote system) and arguments about how complicated the alternative vote is. The public voted against something when the main argument was 'you are too stupid to understand this new system, and it must be bad because Nick Clegg supports it', so now I don't assume the public are too stupid for anything in politics.
I agree that everyone who already had a side will vote for that side, and most of everyone else will not bother to vote or find it too hard to properly educate themselves and hence will vote with their gut instinct. The two campaigns are targeting that "gut instinct" crowd.
You will have to wait till the referendum occurs. Assuming the leave vote wins, I would assume that what occurs for current immigrants very much depends on the will and ability of the conservative party and the MP's inclinations. A significant amount of the Conservatives would most likely want to tighten immigration and visa rules, whilst the vast majority will just follow the party line. Most likely, current immigrants will be given an exemption from new laws, but it is unlikely Bulgaria will get easier visa's into UK, just the opposite. It will probably become a case of only "skilled workers" will be allowed into UK.
____
I too don't understand the majority voted against "alternative vote." I can only presume that it was a combination of that it wasn't truly representative voting, and that voting against it was seen as a way to cement labour and conservative interests and to prevent the rise of BNP.
On a drizzly spring day in rural East Anglia, north of London, Will Dickinson ducks into his centuries-old farmhouse to file some paperwork.
"The wet day has driven me inside to the office — where I hate to be!" says Dickinson. His home, Cross Farm, in Hertfordshire, has been in operation since at least the year 1086, when it was listed in the Doomsday Book, a land survey of England and Wales written that year in medieval Latin.
"I am just filling in the form for my subsidies. I just pressed the 'submit' button," he says. "The subsidies are a vital part of my business income at the moment."
Those are farm subsidies from the European Union — government payments to support farmers, ensure the food supply and regulate the cost of commodities. They make up about a third of Dickinson's income. The other two-thirds comes from the sale of his crops — wheat, barley and canola — and rental of his livery stables to horse owners in the area.
He's more diversified than most British farmers. On average, 60 percent of U.K. farmers' income comes from EU subsidies. About 40 percent of the entire EU budget goes to farmers.
That's one of the reasons this 55-year-old farmer says he'll vote next month to stay in the EU. Britain holds a national referendum June 23 on whether to stay in the EU or pull out and go it alone, an option dubbed "Brexit."
It's what everybody has been talking about for months, Dickinson says, when he gets together with fellow farmers in his local branch of the National Farmers Union. The NFU has said it prefers to remain in the EU, but won't tell its members how to vote either way. It's prohibited from campaigning ahead of the June vote.
"Most of the people I've spoken to at NFU meetings are in favor of remaining within the EU," Dickinson says. "I think that comes from insecurity."
Insecurity about losing those farm subsidies, and possibly also losing access to foreign labor. Up to three-quarters of Britain's seasonal farmworkers come from other EU member countries, according to Pamela Robinson, a food supply chain economist at the University of Birmingham.
OK, but do you have any useful input? Farmers divided over issue EU referendum isn't really news. Nor is that British farming is dependent on EU labour and subsidies. Or that they hate paperwork in general, even though it gives them 60% of their income.
On May 25 2016 00:09 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
"The wet day has driven me inside to the office (... )" says Dickinson.
EPT
