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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment.
There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way .
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On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth.
The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem.
Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder.
Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car.
The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain?
On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way .
you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another.
That argument doesn't support itself.
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And yes, I don't feel like I have any attachments to my gender or sex. Obviously, if someone questions my gender indentity, saying that I'm trying to be a girl, for instance because of my hair, I get offended, not because I couldn't stand the thought of me being female, but because it's a insult at my intellect. It's a bit like calling someone stupid. Someone claims that you have a mental problem or confusion that you know don't exist.
Well, I feel like we're really starting to communicate here. This paragraph here is exactly why we don't like to be referred to as having a disorder.
Tell me to define a mental disorder for you (for no reason), then proceed to tell me I can't use the closest science that deals with mental disorders as proof. Boy are you a reasonable person.
I am pretty reasonable. It's just that if you haven't studied the history of psychology, you probably don't realize how unempirical psychology really is. Even today, with all our advanced knowledge, psychologists still have a very limited understanding of how many drugs work and interact with the brain. The DSM-IV has been revised many times. There is a great amount of dispute about even seemingly obvious personality disorders (borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, and antisocial - all cluster B personality disorders, once considered to be completely different disorders, now some theorize that they are all the same disorder but different responses to the same underlying symptom). Many disorders had (and still have) overly broad symptom lists, which means that your average kid on the internet that looks at them will be able to identify with most symptoms.
So, no, I don't think that psychology gets to label what's mentally orderly and disorderly, because the distinction has always been very blurry and non-empirical. It's based on frameworks of what it means to be normal not by some objective standard of normalcy but rather presuppositions about what is sane and insane. Frameworks that were constructed, not "discovered". If that makes me unreasonable, okay.
The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain?
Maybe it is the brain that is the issue. But again, the thing is, most transgender people don't want to change who they are. Transgender people like their brains and do not consider the brain to be the part with the disorder. Can we prove this to you? No. But since it's our problem, and not yours, could you maybe give us the benefit of the doubt? I cannot help but feel like every time someone suggests that it might be a brain issue, it's primarily for their own benefit rather than for the transgender person. We do not feel like there is anything wrong with our brains, but because transgenderism is strange and body modification appears to most as offensive, it seems like you want it to be a problem with the brain.
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On December 05 2012 11:23 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +And yes, I don't feel like I have any attachments to my gender or sex. Obviously, if someone questions my gender indentity, saying that I'm trying to be a girl, for instance because of my hair, I get offended, not because I couldn't stand the thought of me being female, but because it's a insult at my intellect. It's a bit like calling someone stupid. Someone claims that you have a mental problem or confusion that you know don't exist. Well, I feel like we're really starting to communicate here. This paragraph here is exactly why we don't like to be referred to as having a disorder. Show nested quote +Tell me to define a mental disorder for you (for no reason), then proceed to tell me I can't use the closest science that deals with mental disorders as proof. Boy are you a reasonable person. I am pretty reasonable. It's just that if you haven't studied the history of psychology, you probably don't realize how unempirical psychology really is. Even today, with all our advanced knowledge, psychologists still have a very limited understanding of how many drugs work and interact with the brain. The DSM-IV has been revised many times. There is a great amount of dispute about even seemingly obvious personality disorders (borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, and antisocial - all cluster B personality disorders, once considered to be completely different disorders, now some theorize that they are all the same disorder but different responses to the same underlying symptom). Many disorders had (and still have) overly broad symptom lists, which means that your average kid on the internet that looks at them will be able to identify with most symptoms. So, no, I don't think that psychology gets to label what's mentally orderly and disorderly, because the distinction has always been very blurry and non-empirical. It's based on frameworks of what it means to be normal not by some objective standard of normalcy but rather presuppositions about what is sane and insane. Frameworks that were constructed, not "discovered". If that makes me unreasonable, okay.
I will have to agree here. Psychology is the most fluid and changing of "sciences", mostly because it relies on pinning down personality and behaviors, which are built on such complicated mechanisms, that it's like trying to solve a calculus equation with most of the numbers as unknown variables.
Add to that how we go through periods of "this is good, that's bad, okay now lets reverse this!" again with even factual medical sciences (see: eggs), and a more subjective "science" like psychology is going to be even more prone to shifting views, usually laboring to please the majority or loud minority's views.
The problem with many sciences like these is that in order to actually go anywhere in the field you have to publish a paper that tries to tear apart earlier studies, even if your paper is total bullshit.
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On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself.
Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary .
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Idea: it is our upbringing that leads to the formation of our identity, and our society's current role models are sorely lacking.
+ Show Spoiler [We are shaped by our upbringing.] +I can have a propensity to addictive substance abuse, but its my upbringing and how my parents raise me, that determine if I succumb to substance abuse. While I can't really do all that much to make myself taller, I can most certainly choose my body composition through lifestyle modification (fitness initiative woohoo). Or my grandparents may have very short tempers, but if my parents raise me with firm discipline, but also grace and patience, I can learn remarkable self-control.
In all these ways, we are shaped by our upbringing, we grow down the path we are lead along. Sometimes our parent's efforts can be ineffective to change us (e.g. I don't like showering too regularly as I'd always, incessantly get shit for not doing it enough = bad association, even if I wanna change), lol but actually there, their efforts shaped me, but in precisely the opposite way to what was desired.
Now, we've grown up with certain beliefs, but its also so critical to examine and test them, to clarify and verify what we truly believe. By that point, we're most likely out there independent of the environment we grew up in, and we have to seek our own answers.
I propose that our 'upbringing and the way we are lead' while we mature into our adult identity, is the defining mold of our identity. Now we can step out of what our parents taught, or neglected to teach, us, but that involves changing or expanding our beliefs with lots of soul searching, which I don't think people do enough of these days.
Ugh, I'm all over the place (that's what a week of exam stress does to my brain). Basically I'm making the claim gender identity/belief (sorry, I don't know enough politically correct [gender neutral] terminology, this is always a minefield for me), like other aspects of our identity/belief are very guided by our upbringing. For a long time, I didn't have an example of 'a real man' as a role model I could identify with (to model myself after, when learning 'what it is to be a man'), as I was only exposed to an overly egotistic macho stereotype, or effeminately homosexual. I'm glad I was able to find myself an alternative, walking alongside firm but caring and kind older guys.
The contentious bit: When young people are developing their identity/beliefs, they look to role models to teach them how to live and build their identities. I disprove of parents not taking that responsibility seriously enough, and don't adequately 'set the example'. Falling on either side of the spectrum, either not help them develop their sexual identity (not setting an adequate attainable example, not sparing thought to their child's needs/issues etc.), or having a 'yes honey, anything you say honey' attitude of letting the kid decide completely for themself without any guidance (when they most need guidance). [basically I'm annoyed how people are so quick to be liberal and paint norm-defying-kids as an hero, when IMO they haven't yet sufficiently grown into a sexual identity though are already making claims of ''I am a girl'' I'm still not quite there enough to say for myself 'I am a man', at x2.5 their age]
Yes there are notable flaws in my arguments, mainly that I'm expecting a universal perfect standard of role models, which is clearly impossible (fuck it I'm tired), and I haven't really dug into where our beliefs come from, should they change, and the line between guiding and projecting beliefs..
But what I'm getting at is: sexuality identity/belief is intrinsically linked with identity. Identity takes a very gradual time to build up, so with watchful and engaged rearing we can guide our kids' development. Completely free choice as to which beliefs to hold, comes once they're adult. I believe that the things I believe are true (obviously) and lead to a fulfilled and life-giving existence, and so how dare I not do my utmost to impart these values on my offspring.
In blunt form: what do you say to the idea "Well my kids certainly won't turn out like that, because their sexual identity is a rearing thing, and to the best of my ability I am determined to raise them in what I see as a proper understanding of social/sexual identity."
~but it's their choice, not mine!~ its not very conceivable to embark upon a transition that contradicts your core values. "What it means to me [kid] to be a man?" teach 'em right!
But we can change our identities, though its really hard, and often we don't see it as 'worth it'. Let's say I want to get along better with people, but I'm snappy. I may never realize or recognize it, and even if I do, it may sit well with my current values/identity. But if I believe that ultimately I should change that about the way I interact with people, I can work at it, and possibly succeed. See this last bit is, I don't know, I don't know what this is doing here. Whatever, now, bed.
Also, please understand that the way I express my opinions is sharpened over the internet. I'm socially aware enough, that if this were a real-life discussion with relevant parties (people with the same level of personal exposure to transgerderism as you guys), and direct social implications (gossip, people's opinion of me) on the line, I would tread so softly I wouldn't even say anything to talk about. That's why discussion on the internet is nice, because you can have a bit of distance, so you can present things in a more provocative way, to elicit a better and more pointed response [: Not knowing or seeing me IRL means you can't test what I say versus how I live, nor can you asses if I'm speaking harsher or milder than my actual beliefs, and so for what it's worth, you have to take what I say at face value as personal judgements are meaningless. And I get to write massive fucking walls of text, which people on FaceBook or IRL would NEVER have the care or attention span to deal with, but you're stuck with it cause I can't simplify my ideas any clearer.
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On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary .
Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define a binary situation. When I stated this, you took issue with the fact that I talked about computers, which behave in a binary way too, avoiding supporting your argument.
Don't you have proof your argument is real?
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On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument.
I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around .
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On December 05 2012 10:49 thisisstupid1 wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorderI can't help but wonder at the people who claim those opposed to it are uninformed and ignorant. These people usually have very little to NO working knowledge in psychiatry at all, as well as little to no knowledge about the brain.
Except that it is the psychologists, ie: the most informed and knowledgeable people, who decided to make this change. The DSM V is a psychology manual.
So your claim seems to be rather wrong.
On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake.
Aside from the alive/dead dichotomy (and it's difficult in some cases to tell the difference), that's complete nonsense. People are born with indeterminate genitalia, so no, you are not "either male, physically, or female". Sleep vs. awake is also not a strict dichotomy.
On December 05 2012 11:09 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
I just don't want to be assaulted for calling someone "sir" or "ma'am" just because I guessed wrong on their gender. My brain sees a man, I call them sir. It's not something we think about, and it's certainly not something I want to ask every person I talk to just to make sure I am guessing correctly.
"Excuse me, would you like to be referred to as a man or a woman?"
This is a spurious argument. Nobody is claiming that you should have to ask everyone their gender before calling them "sir" or "ma'am". What they're saying is that, if they correct you on it, you respect their answer.
That's all.
On December 05 2012 11:10 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 09:21 WoodLeagueAllStar wrote:
I bet if it could be 'fixed' with drugs the APA would be fine with it being labeled a disorder. /cynical
I have read that some peoples brains are just female or male because of strange hormonal imbalances in the mothers womb. Though their body is male they think of things from a feminine point of view. Where that can sometimes take the manifestation of homosexuality or wanting to go fully fledged sex change is an interesting scientific discovery for the next generation to tackle most likely, though we are close.
This would be my point: Men who think more like a women, or behave in more feminine ways, are socially castigated and treated like crap by people. Thus, there is shame and guilt and hatred of their own body, so they seek to actually BECOME female in appearance, so that they can behave in those ways without being socially outcast.
Do you have any facts to back this notion up, or is it just an interesting idea you have? Because gender dysphoria has actual psychological research on it, supporting the idea that it's not merely someone wanting to change gender because of outside pressure. Do you have anything to support your position?
On December 05 2012 11:10 thisisstupid1 wrote:
How about this for cynicism: As it is not labelled a disorder, it reduces the roadblocks to going into expensive plastic surgery to change their bodies.
Um, not really. The requirements necessary to determine gender dysphoria and thus decide whether SRS is necessary are not lowered simply because it's not a disorder anymore. Those requirements still remain; they're not even part of the DSM.
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On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define a binary situation. When I stated this, you took issue with the fact that I talked about computers, which behave in a binary way too, avoiding supporting your argument. Don't you have proof your argument is real?
I took issue with the fact that you took computers which are binary to compare them with humans who are not .
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On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define a binary situation. When I stated this, you took issue with the fact that I talked about computers, which behave in a binary way too, avoiding supporting your argument. Don't you have proof your argument is real?
You are the one arguing with the majority view of the psychological community. Therefore you are the one who needs to prove that your argument is real.
Oh, and besides the whole intersex thing, here's an entire article about how sex is not binary in sexual organisms.
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On December 05 2012 11:36 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument. I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around .
You used an ad hominem . "you have a comprehension problem, I didn't explain it poorly". You just stated that they move from ONE to ANOTHER state. That is black and white.
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How'd we go from transgender issues to non-binary and intersex issues?
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On December 05 2012 11:43 thisisstupid1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:36 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument. I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around . You used an ad hominem . "you have a comprehension problem, I didn't explain it poorly". You just stated that they move from ONE to ANOTHER state. That is black and white.
Regardless of how i am stating it which could be poorly , your the one avoiding the things im saying , it isnt black and white for them cause just cause they are physically male or female doesnt mean they biologically are  thats the point.
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On December 05 2012 11:44 Crawdad wrote:
How'd we go from transgender issues to non-binary and intersex issues?
Because `thisisstupid1` claimed that sex is binary when it clearly isn't. The discussion does play into his notion that sex and gender are the same.
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On December 05 2012 11:23 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +Tell me to define a mental disorder for you (for no reason), then proceed to tell me I can't use the closest science that deals with mental disorders as proof. Boy are you a reasonable person. I am pretty reasonable. It's just that if you haven't studied the history of psychology, you probably don't realize how unempirical psychology really is. Even today, with all our advanced knowledge, psychologists still have a very limited understanding of how many drugs work and interact with the brain. The DSM-IV has been revised many times. There is a great amount of dispute about even seemingly obvious personality disorders (borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, and antisocial - all cluster B personality disorders, once considered to be completely different disorders, now some theorize that they are all the same disorder but different responses to the same underlying symptom). Many disorders had (and still have) overly broad symptom lists, which means that your average kid on the internet that looks at them will be able to identify with most symptoms. So, no, I don't think that psychology gets to label what's mentally orderly and disorderly, because the distinction has always been very blurry and non-empirical. It's based on frameworks of what it means to be normal not by some objective standard of normalcy but rather presuppositions about what is sane and insane. Frameworks that were constructed, not "discovered". If that makes me unreasonable, okay.
I said right after that I never claimed it was a mental disorder to begin with. Apparently you just decided to use my argument as a base to jump off on your own tangent.
On December 05 2012 11:36 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument. I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around .
The binary is still that the person is either "Male" or "Female". Even if they change from one to the other, they are still one or the other, and not inbetween. If you're biological male yet you look female, you're still male. I can dress up as a dog, it doesn't make me some inbetween dog-man because I now look like a dog. I'm still a male in the end.
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On December 05 2012 11:44 Crawdad wrote:
How'd we go from transgender issues to non-binary and intersex issues?
I agree its a digression , but saying humans are binary causes alot of harm to anyone who isnt part of the main train of societies thinking such as transexuals transgenders or anyone who doesnt fall into the male or female category .
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On December 05 2012 11:48 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:23 shinosai wrote:Tell me to define a mental disorder for you (for no reason), then proceed to tell me I can't use the closest science that deals with mental disorders as proof. Boy are you a reasonable person. I am pretty reasonable. It's just that if you haven't studied the history of psychology, you probably don't realize how unempirical psychology really is. Even today, with all our advanced knowledge, psychologists still have a very limited understanding of how many drugs work and interact with the brain. The DSM-IV has been revised many times. There is a great amount of dispute about even seemingly obvious personality disorders (borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, and antisocial - all cluster B personality disorders, once considered to be completely different disorders, now some theorize that they are all the same disorder but different responses to the same underlying symptom). Many disorders had (and still have) overly broad symptom lists, which means that your average kid on the internet that looks at them will be able to identify with most symptoms. So, no, I don't think that psychology gets to label what's mentally orderly and disorderly, because the distinction has always been very blurry and non-empirical. It's based on frameworks of what it means to be normal not by some objective standard of normalcy but rather presuppositions about what is sane and insane. Frameworks that were constructed, not "discovered". If that makes me unreasonable, okay. I said right after that I never claimed it was a mental disorder to begin with. Apparently you just decided to use my argument as a base to jump off on your own tangent. Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:36 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument. I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around . The binary is still that the person is either "Male" or "Female". Even if they change from one to the other, they are still one or the other, and not inbetween. If you're biological male yet you look female, you're still male. I can dress up as a dog, it doesn't make me some inbetween dog-man because I now look like a dog.
You are right it doesn't but their whole body changes except for genes , if their body changes to that of a female how does that not make them female? It was a natural change not surgery. There is a spectrum humans are notorious for the wide range of diversity we exhibit , so why is it so hard for you guys to grasp that sex and gender are also on a spectrum.
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On December 05 2012 11:48 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:23 shinosai wrote:Tell me to define a mental disorder for you (for no reason), then proceed to tell me I can't use the closest science that deals with mental disorders as proof. Boy are you a reasonable person. I am pretty reasonable. It's just that if you haven't studied the history of psychology, you probably don't realize how unempirical psychology really is. Even today, with all our advanced knowledge, psychologists still have a very limited understanding of how many drugs work and interact with the brain. The DSM-IV has been revised many times. There is a great amount of dispute about even seemingly obvious personality disorders (borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, and antisocial - all cluster B personality disorders, once considered to be completely different disorders, now some theorize that they are all the same disorder but different responses to the same underlying symptom). Many disorders had (and still have) overly broad symptom lists, which means that your average kid on the internet that looks at them will be able to identify with most symptoms. So, no, I don't think that psychology gets to label what's mentally orderly and disorderly, because the distinction has always been very blurry and non-empirical. It's based on frameworks of what it means to be normal not by some objective standard of normalcy but rather presuppositions about what is sane and insane. Frameworks that were constructed, not "discovered". If that makes me unreasonable, okay. I said right after that I never claimed it was a mental disorder to begin with. Apparently you just decided to use my argument as a base to jump off on your own tangent. Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:36 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:04 Shakattak wrote:
Infact alot of the issues are derived from the fact that we are stuck in a binary way of thinking , good , bad , male female we should start changing our perceptions of other people so these problems such as guilt and other issues that society causes to trans people . Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument. I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around . The binary is still that the person is either "Male" or "Female". Even if they change from one to the other, they are still one or the other, and not inbetween. If you're biological male yet you look female, you're still male. I can dress up as a dog, it doesn't make me some inbetween dog-man because I now look like a dog. I'm still a male in the end.
Your argument also doesnt explain hermaphrodites are they strictly one or the other ?
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On December 05 2012 11:53 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 11:48 killa_robot wrote:On December 05 2012 11:23 shinosai wrote:Tell me to define a mental disorder for you (for no reason), then proceed to tell me I can't use the closest science that deals with mental disorders as proof. Boy are you a reasonable person. I am pretty reasonable. It's just that if you haven't studied the history of psychology, you probably don't realize how unempirical psychology really is. Even today, with all our advanced knowledge, psychologists still have a very limited understanding of how many drugs work and interact with the brain. The DSM-IV has been revised many times. There is a great amount of dispute about even seemingly obvious personality disorders (borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, histrionic, and antisocial - all cluster B personality disorders, once considered to be completely different disorders, now some theorize that they are all the same disorder but different responses to the same underlying symptom). Many disorders had (and still have) overly broad symptom lists, which means that your average kid on the internet that looks at them will be able to identify with most symptoms. So, no, I don't think that psychology gets to label what's mentally orderly and disorderly, because the distinction has always been very blurry and non-empirical. It's based on frameworks of what it means to be normal not by some objective standard of normalcy but rather presuppositions about what is sane and insane. Frameworks that were constructed, not "discovered". If that makes me unreasonable, okay. I said right after that I never claimed it was a mental disorder to begin with. Apparently you just decided to use my argument as a base to jump off on your own tangent. On December 05 2012 11:36 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:32 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 11:29 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:20 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:55 packrat386 wrote:On December 05 2012 04:07 Hren wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but could the title of this thread be misleading? From what I understand, transgenderism will still be considered a mental disorder, the difference being it won't be grouped with other sexual disorders anymore and it's name changed (to oppose the discrimination that is occuring on a daily basis to a certain number of people). I believe that you are incorrect. Before this change there was a disorder in the APA handbook called Gender Identity Disorder (GID) which could be described as someone who identifies with a gender other than the one that they were assigned at birth. The issue with this is that it treats the persons self identified gender as the problem, and not the fact that their body doesn't match their identity. After this change, transgendered individuals would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, i.e. your body does not match match you self-identified gender. In this case treatment would focus on helping these people live comfortably as a member of the gender they identify with, and not trying to convince them to live as the gender that they were assigned at birth. The problem with this is that in neither case do we have a clear cut reasoning to explain which one is really the problem. Without knowledge of the brain or hormones, people believed it was a mental disorder. Now that we are examining the brain, people believe the entire rest of the physical body is the one at odds, and not the brain, despite describing it as an issue within the brain that believes the gender is wrong. Its like changing the whole body of a car around an engine, instead of an engine around the car. The idea is that we discover that the brain is in fact causing an issue, but then we say it's the rest of the body that has the issue, not the brain. How do we know that for certain? On December 05 2012 11:20 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 11:01 thisisstupid1 wrote:On December 05 2012 10:47 Shakattak wrote:On December 05 2012 10:42 ayaz2810 wrote:
[quote]
Our binary way of thinking is something I would hate to live without. I can't explain why exactly, but the idea of a bunch of men wearing baggy jeans with women's blouses along with lipstick, a backwards ball cap, a purse, and various other accessories from both genders just creeps me the fuck out. I picture a big homogenous mass of people who lack any identity. I honestly cannot figure out why that prospect bugs me to no end. Maybe it's something evolutionary. I dunno. Its cultural you were socialized go think like that your whole life , if you werent taught that men and women should wear the clothes that they do and there was no social stigma about wearing what you wanted be that lipstick blouses etc then you would not care . Life is binary, in all senses. You are either alive or dead. You are either male, physically, or female. You are either asleep or awake. That isn't to say we can't allow people to choose their preference in what they want to do. A boy wants to play with dolls? Fine. He might not even be gay, just a sensitive guy, who enjoys interpersonal relationships more than dominating. Where it happens to go wrong is the point on which we assume that a sensitive guy must be gay. Have you guys even looked into the feminist agenda, the male hate complex, etc? http://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011/03/where-have-all-the-nice-guys-gone-why-you-girls-are-stuck-dating-players-and-losers/It's really unpleasant to see, but the nicest males never get what they want, and females complain even after choosing the "manlier" men, the egoistic and self centered ones who think they deserve it all without having to give any in return. This isnt new at all. This is ages old. In our post feminist society, however, the feeling of being a man is so closely tied to success with females, and to behaving in very stereotypical ways. edit: Nicol's post echos my thoughts so much more coherently than I can say it at the moment. There are tribes that the kid is born as a male or female cant remember but when they hit puberty there body undergoes natural changes that change their gender , life is anything but binary there are alot of differences and things that cause life to be not binary , its just easier to think that way . you're exhibiting binary behavior to show that life isn't binary. if their "gender" can "Change", that means it's going from one state to another. Binary is the change from 0 state to 1, in computer terms, or rather from one state to another. That argument doesn't support itself. Neither does talking about computer language , my argument is stating that sex and gender are on a spectrum and is definately not binary . Prove it's a spectrum. Your argument didn't support that at all, because you used binary language to define your argument. I did but you were not comprehending instead you used a binary argument to explain humans which makes no sense , there are people born biologically male or female and undergo changes when in puberty that causes them to change to physically male or female , how is that black and white ? They are biologically male still but look female or the other way around . The binary is still that the person is either "Male" or "Female". Even if they change from one to the other, they are still one or the other, and not inbetween. If you're biological male yet you look female, you're still male. I can dress up as a dog, it doesn't make me some inbetween dog-man because I now look like a dog. I'm still a male in the end. Your argument also doesnt explain hermaphrodites are they strictly one or the other ?
Well obviously gender must therefore be trinary. lol...
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EPT
