EPTAPA: Transgender Is No Longer A Mental Disorder - Page 18
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Keep discussion objective and civil. Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. | ||
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XeliN
United Kingdom1755 Posts
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Vivax
21972 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:07 NicolBolas wrote: Um... what? One of these is a purely environmental factor. The other of these is people being dicks. One of these can be solved by stopping people from being dicks; the other cannot. And no; generally speaking, psychological disorders are defined by social consequences. Yeah, what you call people being dicks is what I call socially constructed disease. I didn't make the point clear there. See my earlier post :> . We actually have the same opinion. On December 05 2012 08:07 NicolBolas wrote: In general, when someone says that what they're about to say won't be "politically correct", I find that such statements are no less true if you drop "politically" from that sentence. The "biological explanation" for racism is nothing more than the basic human instinct towards "us vs. them"; nothing more. Race is simply another way of classifying "us" and "them", much like religion, nationality, sports team, etc. I was thinking of possible benefits for a gene pool in case that it removed (murdered) deviances.But thinking about it, there might be thousands of pro and cons, also depending on the organism you look at, so yeah, remove the politically. In essence though, I believe that the gender that matters for individuals is the one given to them by their mind, not their genitals. I just wonder about one thing: Are trans rather attracted to the sex of their opposite gender or of their same (=men feeling like women attracted to men or to women?) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:30 XeliN wrote: I'd be interested to see people read the wikipedia definition of transgender, because from the line of argument of alot of this thread (at least what i've skim read!) it seems to be wildly misunderstood, or understood only in the extreme. For what it's worth, this is a difficult subject for many people to understand. I've added some quotations from posts in this thread I've thought were particularly good to the OP. I think people are honestly trying to learn and there are some really great people here with lots of patience explaining things. TL Mods have kept out the bad actors and this is a great discussion imo. | ||
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Lynda
649 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:31 Vivax wrote: I just wonder about one thing: Are trans rather attracted to the sex of their opposite gender or of their same (=men feeling like women attracted to men or to women?) There are straight, lesbian, bisexual, asexual and other/queer trans women. Same goes for trans men (FtM). Some statistics done before on that: A survey of roughly 3000 trans women showed that only 23% of them identified as heterosexual, with 31% as bisexual, 29% as lesbian, 7% as asexual, 7% as queer and 2% as "other". | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:16 shinosai wrote: I feel like I'm repeating myself, but that's okay - I know that everyone can't be expected to read every post. The point of the comparison is not to teach you what it's like to be transsexual. You can't know, you will never know. The point is to make you aware of the fact that no one ever questions the fact that you are who you say you are. And this is a privilege that not everyone has. You know, despite saying that, I actually got along with your comparison. So how come you didn't answer to that, or answered my main question, instead of repeating yourself? Because you can't answer my questions? | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
I just wonder about one thing: Are trans rather attracted to the sex of their opposite gender or of their same (=men feeling like women attracted to men or to women?) No. Our sexuality has nothing to do with our gender identity. There are both lesbian and heterosexual trans females. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:38 ninini wrote: You know, despite saying that, I actually got along with your comparison. So how come you didn't answer to that, or answered my main question, instead of repeating yourself? Because you can't answer my questions? No, I can't answer your question. But I can't tell you what it's like to experience the color red, either, so I don't think that it's a very pressing point. Edit: I feel this is probably important to answer, though, and I can answer this: Either way, I personally actually don't think it would be that traumatizing for me, and I think I would be ok with having a female body. I am male, but I don't really identify to a gender in a mental sense, so to me, my body defines what gender I am. I can't imagine being attracted to men though, and I don't think I would drastically change my wardrobe. So I don't think I would really change, or act different. The major difference would be in how I was treated by others, but that's irrelevant, because this is about my gender, not about how I want to be treated. If you want to be treated like the other gender, then become involved in politics and try to bring forth more equality in the world. The way you are treated is actually highly related to actualizing your identity. One cannot identify themselves as a woman while simultaneously being treated and looking like a man. Your identity requires social confirmation AND internal confirmation. Hence why trans people experience "dysphoria." You cannot separate your gender identity from social interactions, because social interactions can undermine your gender identity. Hence why we're having this discussion in the first place. We have many people in the world that accuse trans people of being "fake" and not "really" their gender, and this is extremely harmful to our gender identity. In the trans community perhaps nothing is discussed quite as much as "passing." It is, of course, no coincidence, that we are all obsessed with passing. It's extremely painful every time someone tells us that we are not who we say we are. Something that cissexuals have the privilege of never experiencing. edit: Also, I really do have to question whether or not you really believe that you have no feelings of attachment to your gender. But perhaps as an experiment, go to the store and shop around for some really girly panties and perhaps some tampons and tell me if you felt neutral towards people's reactions? I mean, I don't know many guys that could do it, myself. Because they identify as male and it would piss them off for someone to question their masculinity. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On December 05 2012 07:13 starfries wrote: I haven't gotten an answer to some of my questions so I'll repost while there's still people around: Is there a difference between a trans female and a man with the delusion of being female? The brain structure of a trans female has identifiably female characteristics, but is it that way from birth or is it an effect of seeing yourself as a woman? The man with the delusion believes that his body is female. He may either be happy with that situation, or he may be depressed that his male mind has a female body. Either way, he is mentally ill because he is unable to perceive physical reality correctly. The trans female has a female mindset inside of a male body. She is able to perceive reality just fine, therefore she is not mentally ill. And I'd still like an answer to the cat issue if anyone wants to take a crack at it. The "cat issue" is a ridiculous and irrelevant distraction. It can, and provably does, happen that most human beings are born with mindsets that self-identify as male or female, and that sometimes a male body is born with a female mindset (and vice versa). No human is born with the feeling that they were supposed to be a different animal. If such a thing was even possible, they wouldn't be able to verbalize their feelings (yes, yes, "unless they're a parrot"). But this discussion is just silly and irrelevant, like people arguing "I could maybe feel ok about allowing gay marriage... but what if they start allowing people to marry toasters next?" edit: the way I see it, it's only a psychological issue if the best way of treating it is psychological. Once physical treatments are viable and commonplace, then it's no longer a mental disorder. If you had a disorder where you believed you were an alien cyborg from the year 3000, and this disorder could somehow be cured using brain surgery... it's still a mental disorder regardless of what form the treatment comes in. Your view also implies that a transgender person in today's society is mentally fine, but if he could travel through a portal back in time, he would suddenly become a mentally ill person. Hop back through the portal and he's normal again! | ||
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Nightops
United States66 Posts
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:09 Nightops wrote: How's that not a mental disorder, a guy wanting to be a girl or vice versa? what a joke The framework in which you pose the question is inherently incorrect. The case is actually that there is a girl who wants to be a girl, and actually is a girl, and is taking steps to align her body with her mind. But yea, if you assume from the outset that the person is incorrect or delusional about who they are (an assumption that has no trouble repeating itself many times in this thread) then sure, it seems like an obvious mental disorder. A guy who wants to be a girl implies that the person isn't really a girl. The frame deliberately undermines their psyche before you even ask the question. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:31 Vivax wrote: I just wonder about one thing: Are trans rather attracted to the sex of their opposite gender or of their same (=men feeling like women attracted to men or to women?) I think many (but of course not all) transgendered people are "straight" once they have completed their sex change surgeries. For instance, with someone born with a female body but a male mindset... typically someone with a male mindset will be attracted to women. So this person will eventually become a male who dates women. But this isn't a fixed rule. Being a male trapped in a female's body could happen to a person who has the mindset of a gay male, for instance. | ||
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Nightops
United States66 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:13 shinosai wrote: The framework in which you pose the question is inherently incorrect. The case is actually that there is a girl who wants to be a girl, and actually is a girl, and is taking steps to align her body with her mind. But yea, if you assume from the outset that the person is incorrect or delusional about who they are (an assumption that has no trouble repeating itself many times in this thread) then sure, it seems like an obvious mental disorder. A guy who wants to be a girl implies that the person isn't really a girl. The frame deliberately undermines their psyche before you even ask the question. So you're basing their gender off of their mental state rather than their physical body? That makes a lot of sense, not. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:37 Lynda wrote: There are straight, lesbian, bisexual, asexual and other/queer trans women. Same goes for trans men (FtM). Some statistics done before on that: A survey of roughly 3000 trans women showed that only 23% of them identified as heterosexual, with 31% as bisexual, 29% as lesbian, 7% as asexual, 7% as queer and 2% as "other". I am surprised that so few of them identify as heterosexual. It's understandable that the heterosexuality rate would be lower than normal, but not that much lower. | ||
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WoodLeagueAllStar
United States806 Posts
I have read that some peoples brains are just female or male because of strange hormonal imbalances in the mothers womb. Though their body is male they think of things from a feminine point of view. Where that can sometimes take the manifestation of homosexuality or wanting to go fully fledged sex change is an interesting scientific discovery for the next generation to tackle most likely, though we are close. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:19 Chocobo wrote: I am surprised that so few of them identify as heterosexual. It's understandable that the heterosexuality rate would be lower than normal, but not that much lower. I tend not to think of it as particularly surprising. People who already identify as queer are probably more open to alternate sexualities. I suspect that the heterosexual population isn't nearly as large a majority as they think they are - it's highly influenced by social stigma. Hence why bisexuality in women is waaaay more prominent than in men. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:18 Nightops wrote: So you're basing their gender off of their mental state rather than their physical body? That makes a lot of sense, not. And your argument for why people ought to base their gender off of their physical body is? Because that's what you were taught? Ah, well, I'm convinced, then. Zing. | ||
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Nightops
United States66 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:22 shinosai wrote: And your argument for why people ought to base their gender off of their physical body is? Because that's what you were taught? Ah, well, I'm convinced, then. Zing. And your argument for why people ought to base their gender off their mental state is? Well if that's the case, then I believe that I am actually some wolf so I should go have surgery to look as close to them as possible. | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:21 shinosai wrote: I tend not to think of it as particularly surprising. People who already identify as queer are probably more open to alternate sexualities. I suspect that the heterosexual population isn't nearly as large a majority as they think they are - it's highly influenced by social stigma. Hence why bisexuality in women is waaaay more prominent than in men. More open, yes. But to the point where only 23% are straight? That's a huge difference. | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 05 2012 09:25 Nightops wrote: And your argument for why people ought to base their gender off their mental state is? Well if that's the case, then I believe that I am actually some wolf so I should go have surgery to look as close to them as possible. False analogy. No one actually believes they are a wolf. Again, you frame the question in such a way that you cannot be wrong. You assume that the person is wrong about their identity, and therefore offer a "solution" that seems correct based on this assumption. Belief, of course, is insufficient to be transgender. Cissexuals often like to mischaracterize transsexuals as believing they are the opposite sex because of some sort of whimsical thought or fantasy, rather than the intense feelings and self analysis that they go through, not to mention subjecting themselves to serious medical professionals who specialize in dealing with these issues. You can believe you are transsexual and not actually be transsexual. The easiest way to find out is to go get hormone therapy and find that the treatment made your condition much worse instead of better. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On December 05 2012 08:18 dcemuser wrote: This is classic cissexual thinking. You can't tell the difference between sex and gender because yours are in alignment. Calling that lack of understanding a "theory" (it hasn't been for a long time) is basically like saying you don't believe in transgender people because you can't feel the gender dissonance that they feel. How convenient to say that I just will never be able to understand, because of who I am. Just tell me what the difference between the sex and gender is, and I might understand. If you can't even explain roughly how it feels like to be the male or female gender, how do you expect me to take the concepts seriously? I believe that the placebo effect (and similar concepts) is very relevant here. On December 05 2012 08:29 starfries wrote: I can buy (an extension of) shinosai's argument that if modifying their body won't fix these issues then it's a mental disorder, and if it will, then it isn't. I'm no psychologist so I have no idea whether it's possible to distinguish the two beforehand or whether the second type of person (who will be happy as a cat) even exists, but practical issues aside it seems reasonable. So if a woman hates her boobs, and gets implants, and she's still depressed afterwards, it was a failed attempt at making herself happier, pointing towards some form of mental issue that needs fixing, but if it makes her happier, it was not a mental issue that made her unhappy, rather it was something wrong with her body that she had to fix. | ||
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