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On September 17 2012 01:41 Ventris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:38 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? Goldman Sachs screwing the EU? The EU has been screwing themselves by giving new stimulus packages to Greece/Spain/Italy every other day. We gave nothing to Italy. And i would rather bail out Greece than the Deutsche Bank which would be 10 times more expensive.
Governments should grow a spine and not bend over backwards to corporations.
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On September 17 2012 01:43 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:39 Ventris wrote:Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. I agree, but it will depend on how the unification process continues. The current nation states are to small to finance an efficient military able to operate on a global scale and don't really need it for their political agenda. Their political agenda will be forced ot change when America loses it's seat on the main stage. Step up now. Military 101 Lesson PPPPP Prior Preperation Prevents Piss Poor Performace
Hey, don't tell me. I'm a federalist and would love to integrate the poor excuse the Bundeswehr is into something efficient which isn't in the press every 3 weeks. 
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On September 17 2012 01:42 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:36 Vandrad wrote:
Probably start of Chinas plan to take over the world ? It's not the start, early game yes- but not the start. Show nested quote +Why does EU have to step up? China will eventually take on the USA altogether and then the table have to switch.
You are sounding rather pessimistic that a non white nation will be the leader of the world. That's bias on your part which makes you prefering one race over another, AKA racism. Who said anything about white.... you are aware that libel is a crime. China's record on human rights it's nearly as good as Americas. EU also has a decent record on human rights- and that decent record DWARFS Chinas. Please take your racist remarks somewhere else, they have no place here at TL.
And yet you were the one insinuating it in the first place. Talk about being inconsistent with your initial stance. Now you are just spewing random facts to hinder China's growth. Face it man, human right is not mutually exclusive with being dominant.
Next time you type something, make sure that it doesn't express your own insecurity.
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On September 17 2012 01:46 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:41 Ventris wrote:On September 17 2012 01:38 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? Goldman Sachs screwing the EU? The EU has been screwing themselves by giving new stimulus packages to Greece/Spain/Italy every other day. We gave nothing to Italy. And i would rather bail out Greece than the Deutsche Bank which would be 10 times more expensive. Governments should grow a spine and not bend over backwards to corporations.
That would be lovely. But the world is cruel and this option is sadly not on the table in the forseeable future.
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These kinds of protests are pointless.
Condemn the people who perform terrible acts, not their children or grandchildren. Hating a country and it's citizens, is a horrible form of generalizing. I could understand if one hates a current government, if that government has done or is currently doing something terrible, but it's still pointless unless you take real action against the people who are actually responsible.
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On September 17 2012 01:39 Ventris wrote:I agree, but it will depend on how the unification process continues. The current nation states are to small to finance an efficient military able to operate on a global scale and don't really need it for their political agenda.
thats plain wrong.
If germany would stop pumping money into israel's military or into the infamous 'kampf gegen rechts'
the economic strength of germany and a few other key states (UK and France) would enable the EU to build an incredibly strong army. The problem ist that the german population tends to think that military strength is bad. the prestige of being in the army is extremly low. soldiers are mostly regarded as primitive thugs (not my opinion, just what I observed)
Without giving up freedom to the EU (which, if done, will in the end give birth to widespread discontent. You cant just break nation states. Sooner or later they will re-emerge)
I also think EUstates need to step up and side with Japan and US to balance out the rising power of China.
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I'm pretty tired of people talking about China as if its our enemy. It's not. Yeah, they have a pretty bad human rights record, but so do tons of countries.
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On September 17 2012 01:51 sephiria wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:39 Ventris wrote:Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. I agree, but it will depend on how the unification process continues. The current nation states are to small to finance an efficient military able to operate on a global scale and don't really need it for their political agenda. thats plain wrong. If germany would stop pumping money into israel's military or into the infamous 'kampf gegen rechts' the economic strength of germany and a few other key states (UK and France) would enable the EU to build an incredibly strong army. The problem ist that the german population tends to think that military strength is bad. the prestige of being in the army is extremly low. soldiers are mostly regarded as primitive thugs (not my opinion, just what I observed) Without giving up freedom to the EU (which, if done, will in the end give birth to widespread discontent. You cant just break nation states. Sooner or later they will re-emerge) I also think EUstates need to step up and side with Japan and US to balance out the rising power of China.
I'm to much german to think you could build a central state in the french modell and centralize all power in Brussels. But some kind of federation could manage/coordinate the military far more efficient than it is currently done.
I agree that the attitude towards serving in the armed forces needs to be changed. Germans tend to think of their country as some kind of big, neutral Switzerland without the need for armed forces. Wer are obviously not.
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On September 17 2012 01:49 Ejohrik wrote:
These kinds of protests are pointless.
Condemn the people who perform terrible acts, not their children or grandchildren. Hating a country and it's citizens, is a horrible form of generalizing. I could understand if one hates a current government, if that government has done or is currently doing something terrible, but it's still pointless unless you take real action against the people who are actually responsible.
The way the world works, the people who make the decisions hide behind the people who carry out those decisions. Thus, you're not able to actually 'get at' the people who are responsible without going through the people who are not. Idealists do not understand this.
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On September 17 2012 01:58 Ventris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:51 sephiria wrote:On September 17 2012 01:39 Ventris wrote:Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. I agree, but it will depend on how the unification process continues. The current nation states are to small to finance an efficient military able to operate on a global scale and don't really need it for their political agenda. thats plain wrong. If germany would stop pumping money into israel's military or into the infamous 'kampf gegen rechts' the economic strength of germany and a few other key states (UK and France) would enable the EU to build an incredibly strong army. The problem ist that the german population tends to think that military strength is bad. the prestige of being in the army is extremly low. soldiers are mostly regarded as primitive thugs (not my opinion, just what I observed) Without giving up freedom to the EU (which, if done, will in the end give birth to widespread discontent. You cant just break nation states. Sooner or later they will re-emerge) I also think EUstates need to step up and side with Japan and US to balance out the rising power of China. I'm to much german to think you could build a central state in the french modell and centralize all power in Brussels. But some kind of federation could manage the military far more efficient than it is currently done.
ok, I guess I misunderstood you.
a unified joint chief of staffs board for joined operations (not joined armys) would be a good idea.
efficiency during the syrian crisis was quite low. The whole matter was extremley embarrassing for europe I feel.
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On September 17 2012 01:38 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? Goldman Sachs screwing the EU? The EU has been screwing themselves by giving new stimulus packages to Greece/Spain/Italy every other day.
The crisis was created by Goldman Sachs. Also, countries like Germany are forced to bail them out. Moody's takes care of that.
But like SayGen said:
On September 17 2012 01:35 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? We need to do something about GSachs- but that's a topic for a later day.
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On September 17 2012 01:51 sephiria wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:39 Ventris wrote:Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. I agree, but it will depend on how the unification process continues. The current nation states are to small to finance an efficient military able to operate on a global scale and don't really need it for their political agenda. thats plain wrong. If germany would stop pumping money into israel's military or into the infamous 'kampf gegen rechts' the economic strength of germany and a few other key states (UK and France) would enable the EU to build an incredibly strong army. The problem ist that the german population tends to think that military strength is bad. the prestige of being in the army is extremly low. soldiers are mostly regarded as primitive thugs (not my opinion, just what I observed) Without giving up freedom to the EU (which, if done, will in the end give birth to widespread discontent. You cant just break nation states. Sooner or later they will re-emerge) I also think EUstates need to step up and side with Japan and US to balance out the rising power of China.
Eh Germany protecting Israel is good for Germany, Eu, and America.
The ME has never forgiven the EU for the crusades. Keep in mind, the ME has expanded into Europe before (Spain)
That natural expansion of the ME is into Europe- not Afrcia or Middle Asia.
Plus you gotta ask yourself, do you want Germans fighting the ME unified armies, or German soldiers?
Better to fund Israel who has been on good terms dispite the events in WWII.
EU can build an army now. Their combined GDP is AMAZING, a true POWERHOUSE if there ever was one.
It's just a matter of getting the European powers to see the greater good of allyship.
You'd think EU would know the price of appeasement by now.
I agree EU+USA would maintain the 'world peace' that we are living in now.
On September 17 2012 01:54 Voltaire wrote:
I'm pretty tired of people talking about China as if its our enemy. It's not. Yeah, they have a pretty bad human rights record, but so do tons of countries.
China is really bad though. I'd worry about China being oppressive- they'd see themselves as rulers- not leaders.
Russia is pretty bad, as well- and doesn't have a very charitiable record of donations for world wide crisis.
Though even a Russian domination (which i'm not sure is actually possible, but tha'ts a different discussion) would be more tolerable than China.
China, N Korea, MEast would all more likly than not- be oppressive as world leaders.
this is of course my opinion.
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On September 17 2012 02:02 sephiria wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:58 Ventris wrote:On September 17 2012 01:51 sephiria wrote:On September 17 2012 01:39 Ventris wrote:Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. I agree, but it will depend on how the unification process continues. The current nation states are to small to finance an efficient military able to operate on a global scale and don't really need it for their political agenda. thats plain wrong. If germany would stop pumping money into israel's military or into the infamous 'kampf gegen rechts' the economic strength of germany and a few other key states (UK and France) would enable the EU to build an incredibly strong army. The problem ist that the german population tends to think that military strength is bad. the prestige of being in the army is extremly low. soldiers are mostly regarded as primitive thugs (not my opinion, just what I observed) Without giving up freedom to the EU (which, if done, will in the end give birth to widespread discontent. You cant just break nation states. Sooner or later they will re-emerge) I also think EUstates need to step up and side with Japan and US to balance out the rising power of China. I'm to much german to think you could build a central state in the french modell and centralize all power in Brussels. But some kind of federation could manage the military far more efficient than it is currently done. ok, I guess I misunderstood you. a unified joint chief of staffs board for joined operations (not joined armys) would be a good idea. efficiency during the syrian crisis was quite low. The whole matter was extremley embarrassing for europe I feel.
It's been like this since Yugoslavia collapsed and the EU was unable to stop the massacres in the civil war. I'm proud on Europe in many ways, but military affairs are always a shameful thing to watch <.<
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Woooooah thread went way offtopic since I went to bed. Anyways, I wonder if the US is going to try to meddle in this, they'll probably drop some hints behind the scenes but probably nothing like moving a carrier group in or anything.
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On September 17 2012 01:46 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:41 Ventris wrote:On September 17 2012 01:38 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? Goldman Sachs screwing the EU? The EU has been screwing themselves by giving new stimulus packages to Greece/Spain/Italy every other day. We gave nothing to Italy. And i would rather bail out Greece than the Deutsche Bank which would be 10 times more expensive. Governments should grow a spine and not bend over backwards to corporations.
It is governments which have POWER (read: force, violence, law). Corporations only have MONEY. Corporations use their money to bribe the people who have power. This gives you the false perception that corporations are the ones with power and the government is the one bending over backwards, but actually it's the other way around. Of course this is a common misperception among people who lean towards an anti-capitalist ideology.
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On September 17 2012 02:10 Taku wrote:
Woooooah thread went way offtopic since I went to bed. Anyways, I wonder if the US is going to try to meddle in this, they'll probably drop some hints behind the scenes but probably nothing like moving a carrier group in or anything.
USA doesn't need to do anything Overt.
We already have forces on China's East border
We have the majoirty of our Pacific fleet in/around the China Sphere of Infliuence.
USA's standing remark to China: "Your move"
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On September 17 2012 02:11 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:46 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:41 Ventris wrote:On September 17 2012 01:38 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? Goldman Sachs screwing the EU? The EU has been screwing themselves by giving new stimulus packages to Greece/Spain/Italy every other day. We gave nothing to Italy. And i would rather bail out Greece than the Deutsche Bank which would be 10 times more expensive. Governments should grow a spine and not bend over backwards to corporations. It is governments which have POWER (read: force, violence, law). Corporations only have MONEY. Corporations use their money to bribe the people who have power. This gives you the false perception that corporations are the ones with power and the government is the one bending over backwards, but actually it's the other way around. Of course this is a common misperception among people who lean towards an anti-capitalist ideology.
Corp+Government can both be guilty/innocent and imho should be taken on a case by case basis. Both sides of ther argument have VERY valid arguements that can be justified through countless examples.
There are many in America who think we let Big Business run our Government.
There are just as many in America who think Government is just corrupt.
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On September 17 2012 02:12 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:10 Taku wrote:
Woooooah thread went way offtopic since I went to bed. Anyways, I wonder if the US is going to try to meddle in this, they'll probably drop some hints behind the scenes but probably nothing like moving a carrier group in or anything. USA doesn't need to do anything Overt. We already have forces on China's East border We have the majoirty of our Pacific fleet in/around the China Sphere of Infliuence. USA's standing remark to China: "Your move"
Yeah ok.. you guys probably shouldn't piss China off too much.
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On September 17 2012 02:11 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 01:46 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:41 Ventris wrote:On September 17 2012 01:38 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 01:34 Lucumo wrote:On September 17 2012 01:28 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 01:21 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 01:16 SayGen wrote:I think something that needs to be said- that Orek sort of mentioned indirectly is "Diplomacy is saying nice doggy while reaching for a big stick." Balance of power = peace When the cost of war outways it's profit there will be peace (unless your not of sound mind of course, there are always extremist). Think I'm wrong. Consider this. Once USA took over the world (Post Cold War) There has never been a World War, and until a major power goes for a large scale power grab there won't be one again. Though USA is being undermined, and likly won't be the big dog for much longer, maybe not even for the remainer of my lifetime--but for now I am enjoying the relative peace. All armed conflicts are being carried out through proxy. All large scale 'War' is economic. The real trick is. How can American slowly back off it's power seat without leaving a massive vaccum. Europe won't pick up the mantle, we've tried again and again but why would they spend money on a military when they got us to do everything for them? I think we should bail on Europe with 90% of our troops, and force Europe to defend it's AoR and take a greater intrest in the ME with the aide of Austrilia (who for whatever reason is sadly overlooked in forgein affairs). Don't get me wrong, I know why the EU won't step up, but would you perfer an Eastern power as lead puppet master or China? China is poised to take over, with more spending in Stealth fighters. https://www.google.com/search?q=China's new stealth plane&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=svpVUNm4B86tygHkoYDQBw&biw=1376&bih=690&sei=tfpVUNexNOOEygHH9YCIAgThey already took the American F22 design and modifed it to their liking, giving them a split tie in Air Supremecy- the 1st since since the cold war America has not held completly world air supremacy. One weapons system doth not air dominance make. China's PLAAF still has a long way to go in operational expertise and air "infrastructure" (refuelers, AWACS, electronic warfare). Europe, esp the EU needs to step up soon. America can't hold forever. How are they supposed to do that with Goldman Sachs screwing with them? Goldman Sachs screwing the EU? The EU has been screwing themselves by giving new stimulus packages to Greece/Spain/Italy every other day. We gave nothing to Italy. And i would rather bail out Greece than the Deutsche Bank which would be 10 times more expensive. Governments should grow a spine and not bend over backwards to corporations. It is governments which have POWER (read: force, violence, law). Corporations only have MONEY. Corporations use their money to bribe the people who have power. This gives you the false perception that corporations are the ones with power and the government is the one bending over backwards, but actually it's the other way around. Of course this is a common misperception among people who lean towards an anti-capitalist ideology.
I'm well aware of the problems regarding corporate influence over politicians. That's much more of a problem in the US than in the EU, though. Also, I don't lean towards an anti-capitalist ideology.
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On September 17 2012 02:16 AgniKai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:12 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:10 Taku wrote:
Woooooah thread went way offtopic since I went to bed. Anyways, I wonder if the US is going to try to meddle in this, they'll probably drop some hints behind the scenes but probably nothing like moving a carrier group in or anything. USA doesn't need to do anything Overt. We already have forces on China's East border We have the majoirty of our Pacific fleet in/around the China Sphere of Infliuence. USA's standing remark to China: "Your move" Yeah ok.. you guys probably shouldn't piss China off too much.
We still got at least 5 years to do whatever we can when it comes to China.
Slowing China down will by time for the EU. A rising EU+a Falling US > Rising China
another great question is- Where will Russia come into play- will they favor China or EU?
Russian China relations have been on the rise as of late- but they also have a history of disagreement, and nations that have borders based off lines on a map typically don't like eachother very much. Hard borders- Mountains, Rivers, Oceans are usually better.
We could sit by and let China get #1 even sooner, and catch the world off guard, or we can start lighting the warning fires.
What would you have us do?
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EPT
