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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
China would roll over Japan, Japan can't fight back unless we (USA) interfene. And we arn't looking for war with China. I think it would be a good move, to allow Japan (who has shown ZERO hostility toward us) to rebuild their army and recovery the USA forces back to our West coast/ Hawaii. | ||
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Ventris
Germany1226 Posts
On September 16 2012 23:26 SayGen wrote: I feel sorry for Japan. They have no real standing army (Thanks to America's occupation of their country since WWII). I was actually stationed in Okinawa (lower Japanese island, consisting of a large Chinese population) for 2 years as part of my military service. China would roll over Japan, Japan can't fight back unless we (USA) interfene. And we arn't looking for war with China. I think it would be a good move, to allow Japan (who has shown ZERO hostility toward us) to rebuild their army and recovery the USA forces back to our West coast/ Hawaii. Japan has the 6th largest military budget in the world and 250k soldiers in active duty, about as many as France, Germany or the UK. Enough if you don't have to show significant military presence across the globe. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 16 2012 23:26 SayGen wrote: I feel sorry for Japan. They have no real standing army (Thanks to America's occupation of their country since WWII). I was actually stationed in Okinawa (lower Japanese island, consisting of a large Chinese population) for 2 years as part of my military service. China would roll over Japan, Japan can't fight back unless we (USA) interfene. And we arn't looking for war with China. I think it would be a good move, to allow Japan (who has shown ZERO hostility toward us) to rebuild their army and recovery the USA forces back to our West coast/ Hawaii. And let the rest of the world hate on USA. Yeah I'm totally in for that. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On September 16 2012 23:26 SayGen wrote: I feel sorry for Japan. They have no real standing army (Thanks to America's occupation of their country since WWII). I was actually stationed in Okinawa (lower Japanese island, consisting of a large Chinese population) for 2 years as part of my military service. China would roll over Japan, Japan can't fight back unless we (USA) interfene. And we arn't looking for war with China. I think it would be a good move, to allow Japan (who has shown ZERO hostility toward us) to rebuild their army and recovery the USA forces back to our West coast/ Hawaii. Japan's SDF is a standing army. Just because they don't call it a military, doesn't make it not a military. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:16 KwarK wrote: Since when was the "they're doing it too" argument valid outside of the playground. That one is refuted when your mother teaches you about peer pressure at an early age. Also the "totalitarian China does it too" is not a valid excuse unless your aspirations as a nation are to be as bad as China. At no point did I present China as a model state, nor was my criticism of Japan in any way involving them being worse than China, I have no idea what point you think you're making but I can assure you that you've missed the mark by some distance. As for acknowledging the past, they rewrite text books, honour war criminals, attempt to revise factual records of their crimes and still persist in the same frankly disturbing nationalism that caused the conflict in the first place. You don't get to be nationalistic for a few generations with a history like theirs. My point was not that the Chinese dont have a right to have some resentment for the past, nor was I trying to argue that Chinese history makes Japanese history okay. I was merely pointing out that you are extremely critical of Japanese nationalism when China has an equally bad if not worse history, and is one of the most nationalistic countries in the world. I agree that they shouldn't be trying to re-write the history books, but frankly i see that as more of a sense of shame than anything else. Your point about "You dont get to be nationalistic for a few generations with a history like theirs" is bizarre. By your argument China cant be proud of their heritage because of their past. China Honors Mao like a hero, he was a mass murderer, how is that any different?. China restricts more information than any just about any other country in the world. There are dozens of countries around the world that celebrate their own nationalism when they have done some extremely disturbing things (Britain, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany etc). Maybe Im missing your point, but your argument seems to be overly critical of Japan for what China (and alot of others) itself does. Again, I dont think that your criticism is completely unjustified, but I think there is a lot more going on here on both sides than just saying "Japan is at fault forever". You seem to suggest Japan should live in shame for the rest of its existence because of what happened 70 years ago. Just seems a little hypocritical to me, unless you plan on judging every other country with a dark past the same way. | ||
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Haze.884
New Zealand192 Posts
On September 16 2012 22:38 Sickkiee wrote: So then Poland has to hate Germany for what they did? So then everybody has to hate Stalin forever? Mate, people move on. I am not even Japanese but half Polish. My father does not resent the Germans for what they did to his father nor his grand father. How can you? Either they are all dead, alive and resent the fact or are in jail. It's people like you that spin the hate that is in our world. (Trying my hardest not to sound like a hippy is quite hard). People would have been more than willing to move on, if Japan actually did what Germany did and own up to their own doings. It is really hard for people to forgive a country when they say what they did never actually happened. One of my double major is Japanese, and I meet a lot of Japanese people, and they are the nicest people in the planet. I don't project my hate towards Japanese people, but their (government's) non-chalant response to their own mistakes does make me a bit mad towards them. It is quite selfish to say (esp. for a Japanese) to tell us (E.Asians) to move on.... | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
Rough History 1403 The name "Diaoyu" first appears in a Ming Dynasty book. 1644 Qing Dynasty takes over Ming Dynasty 1743 Map made by order of a Qing Dynasty king does not include Diaoyu Islands as a part of Taiwan. 1872 Ryukyu (now Okinawa) becomes a part of Japan 1885 Islands are confirmed uninhabited. No sign of control by any country. Around 1885 (exact year not confirmed), some Japanese started to inhabit the islands and made fish factories. 1894 First Sino-Japanese War breaks out. 1895 (January) Japan incorporates Senkaku islands into their territory. 1895 (April) First Sino-Japanese War ends. Peace treaty did not include cession of Senkaku Islands unlike Taiwan. 1912 Republic of China takes over Qing Dynasty 1920 Consul of the Republic of China sends letters of appreciation to Japan when some shipwrecked Chinese fishermen arrived and saved by Japanese on the islands. Letters specifically say "at Senkaku Islands, Okinawa, Imperial Japan." 1945 WWII ends. 1946 Allied Nations take over the sovereignty of the islands. 1951 Treaty of San Francisco is signed. 1952 Treaty of San Francisco is implemented. U.S. takes over the sovereignty of Okinawa. 1953 CPC's People's Daily introduces Senkaku Islands as a part of Okinawa 1968 Taiwanese salvage operation ship on one of the islands is expelled for illegal trespass without Okinawa government. No claim/condemnation is made by neither PRC nor ROC. 1968 A study points out the possibility of oil reserve around the area. 1971 (June 11th) ROC claims the territorial sovereignty of the islands. 1971 (June 17th) Okinawa Reversion Agreement is signed. 1971 (December 30th) PRC claims the territorial sovereignty of the islands. 1972 Okinawa, which includes Senkaku Islands in Japanese government's point of view, is returned to Japan from the U.S. 1972 Zhou Enlai admits twice that oil is the problem with the islands. 1972 Normalization of diplomatic relations between Japan and People's republic of China. Some conflicts here and there up until now. I am no expert in terrestrial dispute, but I am sure 99.9% of these protesters don't get the facts right. Discussion with evidence is welcome. No thanks to discussion with emotions. Edit: Although true, this includes mostly Japanese view, so following wikipedia is more fair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute | ||
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
One of my double major is Japanese, and I meet a lot of Japanese people, and they are the nicest people in the planet. I don't project my hate towards Japanese people, but their (government's) non-chalant response to their own mistakes does make me a bit mad towards them. I was actually unaware that Japan denies their wrongdoings. I do know that Germany has owned up for it's mistakes but Japan is a new one to me. That's interesting, I wonder why that is. However, even if the government is doing so, hatred towards the people as a whole isn't right, In my opinion. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:11 Orek wrote: Diaoyu Islands (Chinese Name)/ Senkaku Islands (Japanese Name) claimed by Japan, PRC, and ROC Rough History 1403 The name "Diaoyu" first appears in a Ming Dynasty book. 1644 Qing Dynasty takes over Ming Dynasty 1743 Map made by order of a Qing Dynasty king does not include Diaoyu Islands as a part of Taiwan. 1872 Ryukyu (now Okinawa) becomes a part of Japan 1885 Islands are confirmed uninhabited. No sign of control by any country. Around 1885 (exact year not confirmed), some Japanese started to inhabit the islands and made fish factories. 1894 First Sino-Japanese War breaks out. 1895 (January) Japan incorporates Senkaku islands into their territory. 1895 (April) First Sino-Japanese War ends. Peace treaty did not include cession of Senkaku Islands unlike Taiwan. 1912 Republic of China takes over Qing Dynasty 1920 Consul of the Republic of China sends letters of appreciation to Japan when some shipwrecked Chinese fishermen arrived and saved by Japanese on the islands. Letters specifically say "at Senkaku Islands, Okinawa, Imperial Japan." 1945 WWII ends. 1946 Allied Nations take over the sovereignty of the islands. 1951 Treaty of San Francisco is signed. 1952 Treaty of San Francisco is implemented. U.S. takes over the sovereignty of Okinawa. 1953 CPC's People's Daily introduces Senkaku Islands as a part of Okinawa 1968 Taiwanese salvage operation ship on one of the islands is expelled for illegal trespass without Okinawa government. No claim/condemnation is made by neither PRC nor ROC. 1968 A study points out the possibility of oil reserve around the area. 1971 (June 11th) ROC claims the territorial sovereignty of the islands. 1971 (June 17th) Okinawa Reversion Agreement is signed. 1971 (December 30th) PRC claims the territorial sovereignty of the islands. 1972 Okinawa, which includes Senkaku Islands in Japanese government's point of view, is returned to Japan from the U.S. 1972 Zhou Enlai admits twice that oil is the problem with the islands. 1972 Normalization of diplomatic relations between Japan and People's republic of China. Some conflicts here and there up until now. I am no expert in terrestrial dispute, but I am sure 99.9% of these protesters don't get the facts right. Discussion with evidence is welcome. No thanks to discussion with emotions. From what I'm able to tell, this is a rather one sided presentation in favor of the Japanese side. I think even the Wikipedia article is better than this. | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:14 Coppermantis wrote: I heard on NPR Today that some people are chanting for nuclear war against Japan. Obviously (I really, really hope) this doesn't reflect the Chinese Government's opinion but It makes me wonder how these rioters are so, for lack of a better word, foolish. I understand the animosity between the two nations, but war, especially nuclear war, would be silly. I was actually unaware that Japan denies their wrongdoings. I do know that Germany has owned up for it's mistakes but Japan is a new one to me. That's interesting, I wonder why that is. However, even if the government is doing so, hatred towards the people as a whole isn't right, In my opinion. People always deny wrong doings. Iran denied the holocaust, and continues to chant DEATH TO ISRAEL. I'm not against Nationalism, I am against rewriting history. If we so foolish push history aside, we will repeat it so much sooner than we inevitably always do. Also back to the size of Japans defense force. Korea has a larger army, Japan needs a little something to at least stall a N Korea invasion. If Korea ever attacks S Korea, they would have to fight Japan as well. I trained extensively to launch my F15 for a fast response time for when N Koreans entered Neutral/Japanese airspace. | ||
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:22 SayGen wrote: People always deny wrong doings. Iran denied the holocaust, and continues to chant DEATH TO ISRAEL. I'm not against Nationalism, I am against rewriting history. If we so foolish push history aside, we will repeat it so much sooner than we inevitably always do. Also back to the size of Japans defense force. Korea has a larger army, Japan needs a little something to at least stall a N Korea invasion. If Korea ever attacks S Korea, they would have to fight Japan as well. I trained extensively to launch my F15 for a fast response time for when N Koreans entered Neutral/Japanese airspace. Pardon my ignorance, but what did Iran have to do with the Holocaust? | ||
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Ventris
Germany1226 Posts
Also back to the size of Japans defense force. Korea has a larger army, Japan needs a little something to at least stall a N Korea invasion. If Korea ever attacks S Korea, they would have to fight Japan as well. I trained extensively to launch my F15 for a fast response time for when N Koreans entered Neutral/Japanese airspace. Korea only has such a large army because they share a land border with the north and have to cope every day with a potential attack. It is impossible to justify such high military spending without an obvious thread in a democracy. (Well, at least outside of the US. Idk how they do it) And i highly doubt the junk North Korea calls their armed forces will ever be potentially able to launch a succesfull invasion of Japan. | ||
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
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Ventris
Germany1226 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:34 Coppermantis wrote: If North Korea mobilizes against South Korea or Japan the US will be there on the spot. The only thing that might hold us back would be diplomatic costs with China and Iran, which as far as I know support NK. But I'm pretty sure that an active attack by North Korea would be worth getting involved in from our government's perspective. You have a mutual defense treaty with both of them. Your government does't really have a choice  | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:27 Coppermantis wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what did Iran have to do with the Holocaust? It was an example of rewriting history. Iran hates Israel. They want to make Jews/Israel out to be an aggressor. The Holocaust proves they are victims. This is inconvienent for Iran. | ||
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SayGen
United States1209 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:34 Coppermantis wrote: If North Korea mobilizes against South Korea or Japan the US will be there on the spot. The only thing that might hold us back would be diplomatic costs with China and Iran, which as far as I know support NK. But I'm pretty sure that an active attack by North Korea would be worth getting involved in from our government's perspective. China supplies both Iran and N korea. Russia supples Iran. N korea, thanks to China, gave Iran Nuclear technology after they successfully tested a bomb undergound. There is a power trio in the East. US, China, Russia. We are all intertwinded and use other coutnries as proxys. IE: Cuba missile crisis. | ||
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Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:36 Ventris wrote: You have a mutual defense treaty with both of them. Your government does't really have a choice There's always a choice. International law for powers like the US and China is only relevant as long as it suits them. That said I'm sure the US would step in as they've already got a ton of troops stationed in Seoul that would be immediately caught up in any invasion from the North. | ||
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Ventris
Germany1226 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:46 Scarecrow wrote: There's always a choice. International law for powers like the US and China is only relevant as long as it suits them. That said I'm sure the US would step in as they've already got a ton of troops stationed in Seoul that would be immediately caught up in any invasion from the North. S-Korea and Japan are far too useful for the US to abandon them. And such a move would be near impossible to justify to their own electorate. It would be like abandoning europe to the soviets during the cold war. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On September 17 2012 00:46 Scarecrow wrote: There's always a choice. International law for powers like the US and China is only relevant as long as it suits them. That said I'm sure the US would step in as they've already got a ton of troops stationed in Seoul that would be immediately caught up in any invasion from the North. US would step in as long as it is not Japan vs South Korea. If US doesn't protect both countries vs another country, then it is inevitable both countries seek nuclear weapons by themselves because US power cannot be relied on. There is no way Japan and South Korea accept the power of balance in the region wiithout US AND nuke when all other surrounding countries=China,North Korea, Russia have nukes. Last thing US wants is proliferation of nuclear weapons, so however unwillingly, US wouldn't hold back in the end. | ||
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