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On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money.
By your logic, Usain Bolt is faster than anyone is history including many heavy doping bastards so he must have doped too right? :p
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On August 24 2012 20:54 Raysalis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money. By your logic, Usain Bolt is faster than anyone is history including many heavy doping bastards so he must have doped too right? :p
Yes, obviously Usain Bolt is heavily doped. So many naive people in this world..
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On August 24 2012 12:10 TommyP wrote:
Well kids what did we learn?? We can cheat, make god knows how much money and all we have to do is give up our medals. Yay!!
Could someone explain why he would give up his 7 titles and accept a ban if he didnt do it?
Maybe because he's not as materialistic as some people, and would rather live out his days in peace, knowing that he won 7 TDFs than spend his remaining years defending himself against people who are probably paid to try and convict him. There is no evidence that used drugs. He passed all his drug tests. You can't really ask more from the guy - and obviously he's tired of the bullshit. He won 7 TDFs and honestly I think he just is like "yeah whatever assholes, I won them and I know I won them so that's good enough for me." Maybe he should just challenge all the people accusing him to 7 TDFs. They can dope and receive blood transfusions and he won't. If their theory is correct - they will win 7 times in a row.
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On August 24 2012 20:44 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:39 gTank wrote:On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money. What evidence? And because someone is faster than a guy that dopes, it doesn't mean he doped himself. There is no positive test and he still gets accused guilty. This sport is a farce, nothing more. Even wrestling is closer to the truth than cycling these days... 1. positive tests 2. blood data consistent with blood doping and nothing else 3. accusations and witness reports of former team mates 4. his inhuman riding times 5. him beating a field of people that all doped 6. his sudden improvement only consistent with doping 7. his association with doping doctor Ferrari, or with other people involved in doping 8. apparently he is willing to part with 7 tour titles because he's tired of fighting back? but sure, it's a witch hunt...
Aren't #1 and #2 in that list the same thing? It's also supposed positive tests that the USADA has but hasn't shown anyone.
Everyone that's testifying against him was proven guilty, and on his team. So how did Lance escape this scrutiny that put everyone else down?
Inhuman riding times? He solely focused on the TDF. He would be there practicing all the climbs for weeks ahead of time, when the rest of the field was racing other races. He only got to that point when he had enough money and popularity that he didn't need to do those races. So that's why there is 'sudden improvement'.
It's been 16 years since they've kept this case strong, ruined his image, all without a positive blood test.
This whole trial is a load of crap. If it were a real case, a lot of things would happen differently. First, USADA would publish results of incriminating tests. Second, there would be more basis to the case, but instead it is just about the three things that every outsider thinks of the sport: Lance Armstrong, the Tour de France, and doping. Finally, if it were a real case, the investigation wouldn't spark up every single year around the TDF, and die down for the winter months and earlier season.
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On August 24 2012 20:57 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 12:10 TommyP wrote:
Well kids what did we learn?? We can cheat, make god knows how much money and all we have to do is give up our medals. Yay!!
Could someone explain why he would give up his 7 titles and accept a ban if he didnt do it? Maybe because he's not as materialistic as some people, and would rather live out his days in peace, knowing that he won 7 TDFs than spend his remaining years defending himself against people who are probably paid to try and convict him. There is no evidence that used drugs. He passed all his drug tests. You can't really ask more from the guy - and obviously he's tired of the bullshit. He won 7 TDFs and honestly I think he just is like "yeah whatever assholes, I won them and I know I won them so that's good enough for me." Maybe he should just challenge all the people accusing him to 7 TDFs. They can dope and receive blood transfusions and he won't. If their theory is correct - they will win 7 times in a row.
Are you in touch with reality? You know that either Armstrong doped or he did not. The evidence overwhelmingly says the former, so why are so trying so hard to defend Armstrong? Because he's your hero and you're willing to forgive cheating and criminality for people you like?
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On August 24 2012 20:58 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:57 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 24 2012 12:10 TommyP wrote:
Well kids what did we learn?? We can cheat, make god knows how much money and all we have to do is give up our medals. Yay!!
Could someone explain why he would give up his 7 titles and accept a ban if he didnt do it? Maybe because he's not as materialistic as some people, and would rather live out his days in peace, knowing that he won 7 TDFs than spend his remaining years defending himself against people who are probably paid to try and convict him. There is no evidence that used drugs. He passed all his drug tests. You can't really ask more from the guy - and obviously he's tired of the bullshit. He won 7 TDFs and honestly I think he just is like "yeah whatever assholes, I won them and I know I won them so that's good enough for me." Maybe he should just challenge all the people accusing him to 7 TDFs. They can dope and receive blood transfusions and he won't. If their theory is correct - they will win 7 times in a row. Are you in touch with reality? You know that either Armstrong doped or he did not. The evidence overwhelmingly says the former, so why are so trying so hard to defend Armstrong? Because he's your hero and you're willing to forgive cheating and criminality for people you like?
What exactly are you trying to say here? I don't speak broken English.
Also I'm pretty sure there is no overwhelming evidence. A lot of people have TRIED to convict him over the years. Including a former teammate who testified that he "doped while winning the 2002 TDF" which Armstrong didn't even participate in. I don't even know the guy, nor do I have any real attachment to cycling in general. Like I said - there are probably people who would pay good money to see Armstrong convicted for whatever personal gain. And there are definitely people willing to lie for money.
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On August 24 2012 20:58 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:57 Arghmyliver wrote:On August 24 2012 12:10 TommyP wrote:
Well kids what did we learn?? We can cheat, make god knows how much money and all we have to do is give up our medals. Yay!!
Could someone explain why he would give up his 7 titles and accept a ban if he didnt do it? Maybe because he's not as materialistic as some people, and would rather live out his days in peace, knowing that he won 7 TDFs than spend his remaining years defending himself against people who are probably paid to try and convict him. There is no evidence that used drugs. He passed all his drug tests. You can't really ask more from the guy - and obviously he's tired of the bullshit. He won 7 TDFs and honestly I think he just is like "yeah whatever assholes, I won them and I know I won them so that's good enough for me." Maybe he should just challenge all the people accusing him to 7 TDFs. They can dope and receive blood transfusions and he won't. If their theory is correct - they will win 7 times in a row. Are you in touch with reality? You know that either Armstrong doped or he did not. The media overwhelmingly says the former, so why are so trying so hard to defend Armstrong? Because he's your hero and you're willing to forgive cheating and criminality for people you like?
Fixed.
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On August 24 2012 20:57 Gogleion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:44 Grumbels wrote:On August 24 2012 20:39 gTank wrote:On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money. What evidence? And because someone is faster than a guy that dopes, it doesn't mean he doped himself. There is no positive test and he still gets accused guilty. This sport is a farce, nothing more. Even wrestling is closer to the truth than cycling these days... 1. positive tests 2. blood data consistent with blood doping and nothing else 3. accusations and witness reports of former team mates 4. his inhuman riding times 5. him beating a field of people that all doped 6. his sudden improvement only consistent with doping 7. his association with doping doctor Ferrari, or with other people involved in doping 8. apparently he is willing to part with 7 tour titles because he's tired of fighting back? but sure, it's a witch hunt... Aren't #1 and #2 in that list the same thing? It's also supposed positive tests that the USADA has but hasn't shown anyone. Everyone that's testifying against him was proven guilty, and on his team. So how did Lance escape this scrutiny that put everyone else down? Inhuman riding times? He solely focused on the TDF. He would be there practicing all the climbs for weeks ahead of time, when the rest of the field was racing other races. He only got to that point when he had enough money and popularity that he didn't need to do those races. So that's why there is 'sudden improvement'. It's been 16 years since they've kept this case strong, ruined his image, all without a positive blood test. This whole trial is a load of crap. If it were a real case, a lot of things would happen differently. First, USADA would publish results of incriminating tests. Second, there would be more basis to the case, but instead it is just about the three things that every outsider thinks of the sport: Lance Armstrong, the Tour de France, and doping. Finally, if it were a real case, the investigation wouldn't spark up every single year around the TDF, and die down for the winter months and earlier season.
#1 and #2 are just things that come to mind.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ashendens-view-on-armstrong-doping-allegations is about epo, http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-06-15/news/32239818_1_blood-doping-blood-bags-tests is about his blood values, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Armstrong#Allegations_of_doping has general information, http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/news/usada-letter-paints-dark-picture-of-armstrong-era_223925 about testosterone
there is lots more, one thing I especially want to stress is "maybe he really was that much better that he could perform so well even without drugs". First of all, that's statistically unlikely, second of all, his times were inhuman, and third of all, nobody can even come close to those times anymore and fourth, if someone would run the 100m sprint in 9.40 or something, would you think he's just "that much better" or would you suspect foul play? And would you take seriously people that call him just hypertalented?
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On August 24 2012 20:56 Khenra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:54 Raysalis wrote:On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money. By your logic, Usain Bolt is faster than anyone is history including many heavy doping bastards so he must have doped too right? :p Yes, obviously Usain Bolt is heavily doped. So many naive people in this world..
Why do you think this?
It is possible to be the worlds best.
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I'm really not sure how I feel about this... the actualy evidence that they seem to have against him seems to contradict Armstrongs statment... and the fact he passed so many tests and has gone untill now without any actual 'problems' with drug charges seems to be rather odd to me...
...I agree that you should make a stand if you've had enough of fighting something you deem as nonsense... but at the same time, they will strip him of everything he has spent his life working so hard to achive...
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A little history for those interested.
http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/chiffres/tdf-palmares.htm
I am a fan of cycling, I enjoy it for what it is. The presence of performance enhancing drugs changes nothing for me. All this Lance business is a bit silly to me. He took them, every rider worth anything has.
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Sad for Armstrong fans, but a huge win for clean cycling. Even if they posess undetectable doping now, they can be detected later and be stripped from their accomplishments. Obviously it's a witch hunt, Armstrong was probably the best amongst a doped peloton, but tall trees catch a lot of wind.
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It's amazing he fought them for 16 years. I like how everyone is saying that they have positive doping tests but they haven't released them. "Ok"
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On August 24 2012 21:07 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 20:56 Khenra wrote:On August 24 2012 20:54 Raysalis wrote:On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money. By your logic, Usain Bolt is faster than anyone is history including many heavy doping bastards so he must have doped too right? :p Yes, obviously Usain Bolt is heavily doped. So many naive people in this world.. Why do you think this? It is possible to be the worlds best.
It's sarcasm, because the original argument was "you need to be a cheater to beat a cheater", which is completely nonsensical in certain circumstances.
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Unfortunately for me this doesn't change how I view Lance. That entire sport is completely and utterly dirty. So he was better at being dirty than every other rider for a longer period of time which also means he was a better rider in general in order to achieve his results. You know what I call that in relation to a crooked sport? GOAT status.
Now that Lance has had his titles removed that means that basically 10 or more of the titles since 1999 have been dirty, not considering all the other teams and support riders who dope.
In a sport this shitty, who cares.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On August 24 2012 21:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 21:07 Sea_Food wrote:On August 24 2012 20:56 Khenra wrote:On August 24 2012 20:54 Raysalis wrote:On August 24 2012 20:31 Fenrax wrote:
Armstrong was obviously doped. On top of the indications and evidences the fact that he has regularly beaten heavy dopers like Ullrich and Pantani speaks for itself. I can feel for his fans though, I was in denial about Ullrich's doping for too long, too. Just accept reality, nothing but a dirty cheater who gets some of what he deserves. A shame that he can keep the money. By your logic, Usain Bolt is faster than anyone is history including many heavy doping bastards so he must have doped too right? :p Yes, obviously Usain Bolt is heavily doped. So many naive people in this world.. Why do you think this? It is possible to be the worlds best. It's sarcasm, because the original argument was "you need to be a cheater to beat a cheater", which is completely nonsensical in certain circumstances.
I don't think Sea_Food was being sarcastic.
This argument is not nonsensical in this situation. The impact of doping is high enough that outstanding clean athletes just stand absolutely no chance against good doped athletes in stamina or strength competitions like tour cycling or short range sprinting.
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so hard to prove anything now, who gives a fuck, most sports players use some substance or another anyways
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On August 24 2012 21:24 mememolly wrote:
so hard to prove anything now, who gives a fuck, most sports players use some substance or another anyways
wrong, wrong, wrong (good score)
they could prove it, that's why Armstrong gave up
people do care, that's why it's on the frontpage of every paper
usually the top of the field is heavily using, but that's biased sampling
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It's probably best for armstrong that he just accepted the charges. Now he'll have one (maybe two) days of scrutiny from the press and public. If he fought the charges there would be days of coverage, and when he was found guilty it would have been huge.
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On August 24 2012 21:29 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 21:24 mememolly wrote:
so hard to prove anything now, who gives a fuck, most sports players use some substance or another anyways wrong, wrong, wrong (good score) they could prove it, that's why Armstrong gave up people do care, that's why it's on the frontpage of every paper usually the top of the field is heavily using, but that's biased sampling
they could prove what they wanted to find, that is why Armstrong gave up
the average joe doesn't care about Armstrong doping, just because it is on newspapers (a dying industry I might add) doesn't mean people care
your last point isn't provable either way but most sports have their athletes on something
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EPT
