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On August 24 2012 18:20 Velr wrote:
The man is one of the biggest Hypocrits alive... I don't get why so many seem shocked at these revelations...
Btw: Tennis and Football seem kinda clean. Search your heroes there ^^
They seem clean, but they definately aren't.
Probably 90% (I obviously pulled that out of my ass) of competetive athletes are doping one way or the other.
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On August 24 2012 18:17 Crushinator wrote:
I don't know what to make of the evidence. There seem to be a whole lot of irregularities, accusations, and general dodgy shit. But none of it is very damning or conclusive on its own. Well maybe the positive test for EPO is, but I don't know if that is even admissable. The fact that he seems to have given up the fight is extremely dodgy, he has never given up fighting before.
I would be very sad if it turns out he was a cheater all this time. The man has been a hero to me for so long.
That epo test is obviously inadmissable. USADA did their own investigation. They decided they had a case. USADA are notoriously conservative in starting up a case and they win almost every doping case. They had new evidence. What it is we don't know and we may never know. We kinda know all his teammates probably said stuff.
Also the blood values from his more recent tours will be evidence. Maybe they are even more suspicious as is normal. (most top riders have suspicious blood values).
Armstrong decided to give up. Probably because he was gonna lose anyway. This way he has a hope the evidence never comes out and he can save part of his image.
It's basically an admission of guilt.
Tennis isn't close to clean. I believe all top tennis players are on steroids. That's why they all whine about how many doping tests they get (they barely get any) and people like Nadal defend known cheaters like Contador.
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On August 24 2012 18:20 Velr wrote:
The man is one of the biggest Hypocrits alive... I don't get why so many seem shocked at these revelations...
Btw: Tennis and Football seem kinda clean. Search your heroes there ^^
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.nl/p/the-case-against-tennis.html people do suspect Nadal, the strongest player of the last few years. Furthermore, the Spanish football team (world champions!) are implicated in doping. Iniesta is suspected and he was supposedly the best player of this year.
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I can't really tell from the stories what the evidence is, so I will withold judgement. But regardless...doesn't taking away titles fall on the organization that...you know...gives the titles? How can can any US based organization decide that? It seems like they are spouting nonsense to make their after-the-fact ban from cycling seem like it carries any weight at all.
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On August 24 2012 18:31 sheaRZerg wrote:
I can't really tell from the stories what the evidence is, so I will withold judgement. But regardless...doesn't taking away titles fall on the organization that...you know...gives the titles? How can can any US based organization decide that? It seems like they are spouting nonsense to make their after-the-fact ban from cycling seem like it carries any weight at all.
I don¨t know the aspects on this perticular case but you can bet your ass that if it's concluded he was doped his tour the france titles will fly out the windows, regardless if it's the us organization or the french organizers that makes the call.
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Why are there even doping controls. It is a very quichotic quest as doping methods become more and more unrecognizable from normal genetic mutations and similar. They should just allow whatever doping people want to do for adults and be done with it. At least we will see what human body can do and how stupid people actually are.
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On August 24 2012 18:34 mcc wrote:
Why are there even doping controls. It is a very quichotic quest as doping methods become more and more unrecognizable from normal genetic mutations and similar. They should just allow whatever doping people want to do for adults and be done with it. At least we will see what human body can do and how stupid people actually are.
Seeing 30% of the riders die during every tour de france would be a bit sad though. If doping controls can't be effective it is the death of pro cycling.
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The Cycling union should have dropped this case, whether he did it or not.
By convicting him the sport loses one of the only faces it still had left, they should have used him as an icon instead of starting this witch hunt against him.
Convicting him hurts the sport more then dropping the case.
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On August 24 2012 18:26 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 18:20 Velr wrote:
The man is one of the biggest Hypocrits alive... I don't get why so many seem shocked at these revelations...
Btw: Tennis and Football seem kinda clean. Search your heroes there ^^ http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.nl/p/the-case-against-tennis.html people do suspect Nadal, the strongest player of the last few years. Furthermore, the Spanish football team (world champions!) are implicated in doping. Iniesta is suspected and he was supposedly the best player of this year.
There's probably top athletes in most high profile sports that have used doping, though I have a hard time it's as widespread as many seem to believe (+90 %). But if there's money to be made and there's a good chance you won't get caught there will always be people taking advantage over it and football and tennis that were brought up are certainly two sports where a lot of people get a way with it considering how little interest the major organizations have in controlling the issue (most likely to save face).
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I love this story.
For years France was looking to prove that Armstrong is cheating, they failed every time. After years they found some frustrated, pathetic people who supposedly know that Armstrong was using illegal substances.
The funny part is that they wanted to ban him while he was winning - it is funny because Tour de France was popular ONLY because of people like Armstrong. Nowadays we no longer have any consistent winner and guess what? Tour de France is just meh...
Prove him something you pathetic bastards! Armstrong has 7 wins. For that he will be remembered.
This The World Anti-Doping Agency is really ridiculous. When Vinokourov is winning Olimpic Medal after being caught cheating at least once, everything is fine. But let's take all the wins from Armstrong. Ah yeah, we don't have any evidence. Well, whatever, let's do this anyway.
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On August 24 2012 18:26 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 18:20 Velr wrote:
The man is one of the biggest Hypocrits alive... I don't get why so many seem shocked at these revelations...
Btw: Tennis and Football seem kinda clean. Search your heroes there ^^ http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.nl/p/the-case-against-tennis.html people do suspect Nadal, the strongest player of the last few years. Furthermore, the Spanish football team (world champions!) are implicated in doping. Iniesta is suspected and he was supposedly the best player of this year.
I'm not saying they are 100% clean. But as far as I can tell there was no big scandal/revelation for a long time now so it seems half way decent ^^.
Or let's go the other way.. Women-Weightlifting, they even look like mutants :D. The problem in Cycling is, is that there is hardly any other Sport were doping is SO effective because it's 95% pure "mindless" Bodywork. People might dope in Tennis or Football, but you still need to make the right moves at the right time.
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I got banned fro talking about Vino and his doping.
Armstrong didn't win the tour 7 times. As of today, he won 2 tour stages and that's it. And one of them he won because of his teammate dying in a crash the day before. That race was neutralized and the team of the dead rider crossed the finish together.
Yes, some French wanted to ban him because he was winning, not because he was cheating. Which is kinda sad. But in the end all his teammates came clean and testified he doped. That with his blood values and maybe even more evidence allowed the US anti doping agency to strip him of all his wins and ban him for life for doping.
Tour de France was already popular before Armstrong and whenether it is entertaining or not is a different issue.
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On August 24 2012 18:39 Asturas wrote:
I love this story.
For years France was looking to prove that Armstrong is cheating, they failed every time. After years they found some frustrated, pathetic people who supposedly know that Armstrong was using illegal substances.
The funny part is that they wanted to ban him while he was winning - it is funny because Tour de France was popular ONLY because of people like Armstrong. Nowadays we no longer have any consistent winner and guess what? Tour de France is just meh...
Prove him something you pathetic bastards! Armstrong has 7 wins. For that he will be remembered.
This The World Anti-Doping Agency is really ridiculous. When Vinokourov is winning Olimpic Medal after being caught cheating at least once, everything is fine. But let's take all the wins from Armstrong. Ah yeah, we don't have any evidence. Well, whatever, let's do this anyway.
They are not going to convict a 'hero' for no reason. There always has been a lot of smoke around Armstrong and Bruyneel, if he get punished, it's because the punishment fits the crime, don't make him into a marter.
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I don't see what's so fair about stripping Armstrong's titles when everyone he's competing against is using too... I think you would have a hard time finding a top 10 athlete in ANY sport who's not on drugs. It's been part of sports for like 50 years, it won't go away. Either bust them all or let them do their thing.
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On August 24 2012 18:34 mcc wrote:
Why are there even doping controls. It is a very quichotic quest as doping methods become more and more unrecognizable from normal genetic mutations and similar. They should just allow whatever doping people want to do for adults and be done with it. At least we will see what human body can do and how stupid people actually are.
I don't know, I wouldn't be that interested in watching abnormalities compete. The quest may be foolish but if you completely deregulate there would be nothing stopping people from going to the absurd, which might be entertaining to some but not to me. Sure there are probably a lot of athlese in many sports that uses performance enhancing drugs but at least they have to keep it at a level where they don't come out looking like a mutant (at least without people looking at them as suspicious).
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Finally they got him (anyone who believes there was no evidence just is not informed enough, not everyone can read the hatetrain that is Thomas Kistner in the Süddeutsche Zeitung  ).
Stripping him of this titles will accomplish nothing though, just another betrayer getting it (by now most 2nd and 3rd place finishers were banned at one time or another anyhow).
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On August 24 2012 18:48 Sneakyz wrote:
I don't see what's so fair about stripping Armstrong's titles when everyone he's competing against is using too... I think you would have a hard time finding a top 10 athlete in ANY sport who's not on drugs. It's been part of sports for like 50 years, it won't go away. Either bust them all or let them do their thing.
Uuh, that makes no sense.You are not allowed to dope. As of today he was proven to dope so he got banned. It is not fair? Indeed, cheating isn't fair for those that decided to ride clean. Many riders had to quit because they wanted to ride clean only. Many riders didn't ever get a shot at winning when they were extremely hard working and talented but just not willing to dope. Is that fair?
We want a fair and clean cycling sport. We have this known doper that is the biggest name in the sport that only retired a few years ago and that won the biggest race 7 times in a row. And we let him go unpunished when he was proven to have doped? How is that fair? Many other people got their title stripped as well with much less evidence. Are we going to give Ricco back his title? It is only fair? Isn't it?
If you want to change the nature of cycling and make it clean for the future, the first thing yuou need to address is the elephant in the room and that's Lance and his 7 wins. That is now finally out of the way. Finally. It took such a long time. Yes, if he finished 50th all those tours it wouldn't be such a big issue for obvious reasons and it wouldn't have come to it. But for cycling to be clean we have to accept that all those past winners indeed doped and strip the titles and condemn what they did. How can you tell a young talent to ride clean when we still have Armstrong up there being allowed t winn though doping?
Either you ban Armstrong or you ban cycling as a professional sport.
No one got the 1996 Riis title. No one will get the titles Lance got stripped off.
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I think he still deserves those titles because he was clearly the best of all the people who were doping...
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On August 24 2012 18:55 Zaphid wrote:
I think he still deserves those titles because he was clearly the best of all the people who were doping...
That's true he kind of 'deserved' them. But if you want a clean sport you need to strip all titles you can prove where doped. Otherwise how will you clean it up today?
It's about changing cycling. This is probably the last shot pro cycling has. It is now or never.
This is a very very good day for cycling.
But is Bruyneel banned now too? Ferrari was already banned. Armstrong is banned as of today. They need to kick Bruyneel out of the sport as fast as possible as well.
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EPT
