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On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CKKQl.jpg) This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. EDIT: That equation was derived using a very logical process too btw. As with all of the other kinematic equations and other equations that are used all the damned time. Thing is, very intelligent people made it so that it seems invisible as the machines crunch the numbers for you.
I think you missed his point. PEMDAS is convention that must be memorized. If you do not memorize it, it can actually be counterlogical to our standard of reading from left to right which is shown by the quoted example.
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Sorry, I didn't read the article but I just wanted to give my two cents.
For many people, Algebra is a useless in their everyday lives. There is no need for anyone to learn the quadratic formula. However, if we consider what the quadratic formula is, it's a modified equation of the original form of ax^2 + bx + c = 0. The quadratic formula is a clever little trick a mathematician figured out so someone can find the zeroes by using a handy little formula.
That being said, I am completely against just memorizing a formula just because it will give someone an answer if you plug your numbers in right. I feel that the significance of learning such a formula is to recognize that if we look at a problem at different angles, you can find solutions that couldn't be reached before. A problem in life can be viewed in life as an equation. Solving a quadratic equation involves methods such as factoring, completing the square, graphing, quadratic formula, etc. In certain circumstances, it may be impossible to solve an equation through factoring and a different method needs to be used. I feel learning a skill such as Algebra can only help the way one would think when approaching a problem.
No comment on the Algebra requirement and the level of education.
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On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written,
position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position)
and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
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On July 29 2012 16:05 xavra41 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
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Yes Algebra is necessary. More knowledge = more options. If schools have to resort to removing subjects to improve grades then why not make getting a diploma as easy as passing first grade? I mean it will certainly make people feel special.
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On July 29 2012 14:58 RodrigoX wrote:
Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.
Honestly, this sums everything up when I read the article.
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On July 29 2012 15:58 MetalPanda wrote:
Some people can think maths should be pretty easy for smart people since it's easy to them, but some people are really smart but can't have good academic results in maths.
I agree with the OP.
I have yet to meet a person that is intelligent and did not have good academic results in required mathematics throughout their academic careers.
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This reminds me of a story my dad always tells me of shortly after he graduated from university and went to work on the Railway as an Engineer.
His boss called him in for one of those evaluation sessions, where you talk about how you're finding your new job, what you're struggling with and so on, not sure what they're called. Anyways, my Dad told his boss that after 4 years of Uni, he only spent 1 week on Railway Engineering and has no clue what to do at this new job, and how he has been put in charge of people who have been working there for 20+ years and know 10x more then he does. His boss told him that his Uni degree isn't a proof of his knowledge, but rather proves that you are able to work to a certain level, one that those who had worked at that railway without a degree were never able to attain.
So for me, from what I've grown up being taught, not everything has to have a practical meaning. However, showing that you are able to work at a certain level regardless of whether you enjoy a subject area or not is the most important thing. Being able to be put into a situation which you are uncomfortable with and being able to work your way out of it because you have the dedication and motivation to do so, that's whats important.
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You shouldn't be removing subjects and dumbing down the school system because people are stupid or just don't give a shit. You don't fail because you're dumb and literally cannot understand the material, you get a lower mark. You fail because you don't put in the time necessary.
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On July 29 2012 16:10 The_LiNk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:58 MetalPanda wrote:
Some people can think maths should be pretty easy for smart people since it's easy to them, but some people are really smart but can't have good academic results in maths.
I agree with the OP. I have yet to meet a person that is intelligent and did not have good academic results in required mathematics throughout their academic careers.
But..but..social sciences and humanities!!! xD
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Algebra can be applied to many real world situations. I could see the argument if they were talking about trig or calc but not algebra.
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On July 29 2012 16:02 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. What is a logical procedure.
For example, Newton's method for finding a root of an equation.
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Well how did Shakespeare help me? Why did I have to take that shit for 3 years?
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On July 29 2012 16:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:05 xavra41 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day. In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations? PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
No, in order to change PEMDAS you'd need to add a few extra parentheses in some places.
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From what I experienced in High School, it's not really that algebra was difficult for some people to learn, it was more of that some of the students did not have the motivation to learn it. What needs to change is the ability for our schooling system to motivate our students. This is a process that should be started at a young age as I remember even as an elementary student, I had friends who didn't care about learning anything.
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On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
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If we cut algebra, then we cut all of humanities except for basic composition and the part in government classes about civil liberties.
Have fun in school kids.
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On July 29 2012 16:12 Monoxide wrote:
Well how did Shakespeare help me? Why did I have to take that shit for 3 years?
I don't know, maybe because you enjoy it? I enjoyed learning math. I'm not saying to take that away. But not everyone enjoys or uses math.
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On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
(9 + 3)^2 - pemdas = 12^2 = 144
(9 + 3) ^2 - not pemdas = 9^2 + 3^2 = 90
To not use pemdas relies on the writer to write it exactly how it is intended to be
position = [.5(acceleration)[(time)^2]] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position)
This is a simple equation. Equations that get more complex would get more and more muddy and more difficult to read. Also, based upon this you missed a bracket that I had to fix for you. On one of the simple equations. That is just how muddy things get.
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On July 29 2012 16:12 ObliviousNA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:05 xavra41 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day. In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations? PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important? No, in order to change PEMDAS you'd need to add a few extra parentheses in some places.
Adding in parenthesis is still following PEMDAS. How would you know where the parenthesis go if you didnt know PEMDAS?
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EPT
