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From my understanding of the article was that mathematics serves as a gatekeeper for students that are more into non technical areas and that it is unnecessary that they be barred from their future careers or further education because they cannot pass an area of academics that is totally unrelated to what they will be doing.
Considering that high school algebra is one of those subjects that doesn't require some innate ability (such as naturally articulate people excelling at 4 unit English) and only requires about 1-2 hours per week of grinding questions, it just signals a lack of motivation of doing something that you don't enjoy. TBH most employers would probably apply that reasoning into the workplace and question whether that particular individual would undertake tasks assigned to him that he/she probably won't like.
Meh, maybe my understanding of this article was wrong, reading comprehension was never my strong point (yet I passed it in high school lol)
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On July 29 2012 16:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:05 xavra41 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CKKQl.jpg) This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day. In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations? PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
You said it yourself ' it was created by man' so some guy arbitrarily came up with it. Also not everything is created by man...
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On July 29 2012 16:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:23 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:16 r.Evo wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers t he reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41. Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first. PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me. PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school? Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention. Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]? The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times? Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere. Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
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10387 Posts
The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.
holy shit this is sad LOL
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My memory of high school maths below
Teacher:
x + 5 = 7
Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other.
x = 7- 5
x = 2
2 + 5 = 7
This proves x = 2
Next question
x + 8 =11
Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other.
x = 11- 8
x = 3
3 +8 =11
This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
The article needs to cite an example of 'algebra" I can understand not need to know quadratics/cubics/ differentiation/ anti-differentiation ect, but simple things like the above and pythagoras theorem, I mean even tradesmen/carpenters use these formula's everyday.
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On July 29 2012 16:27 xavra41 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:05 xavra41 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day. In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations? PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important? You said it yourself ' it was created by man' so some guy arbitrarily came up with it. Also not everything is created by man...
Everything that is not pure nature is manmade. Last I checked, we dont live in caves and only use our fists while our bodies are naked. So, about 99.9% of your life is manmade.
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On July 29 2012 16:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:13 dudeman001 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know. I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true. If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics. No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept. There's a difference between axioms and notation. The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way. Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0. You can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1. You can even apply exp to both sides to get [exp(x+1)]^2=1, so that exp(x+1)=1, and then log both sides to get x+1=0, then x=-1.
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On July 29 2012 16:28 Mallard86 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:23 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:16 r.Evo wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers t he reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41. Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first. PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me. PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school? Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention. Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]? The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times? Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere. Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers. Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic
[loj-ik] Show IPA
noun
1.
the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
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On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:13 dudeman001 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know. I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true. If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics. No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept. There's a difference between axioms and notation. The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way. Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved? What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant. Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication. So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
Please go ahead and try using addition before multiplication on a simply math problem:
Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?
My brain stops working when trying to make exercises like this but I'm pretty sure it will look more awkward than if you assume that 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 or 3x7 = 21.
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On July 29 2012 16:29 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:27 xavra41 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:05 xavra41 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day. In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations? PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important? You said it yourself ' it was created by man' so some guy arbitrarily came up with it. Also not everything is created by man... Everything that is not pure nature is manmade. Last I checked, we dont live in caves and only use our fists while our bodies are naked. So, about 99.9% of your life is manmade.
lols ahhh good fun. If you're going to define nature as something that lacks mankind's influence, then that is just begging the question. lol I like how you quantified how much is 'manmade' I guess most of the stuff around me is air which is natural and wood which is mostly natural... I could go on, but I've made my point.
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On July 29 2012 16:32 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:13 dudeman001 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know. I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true. If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics. No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept. There's a difference between axioms and notation. The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way. Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved? What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant. Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication. So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1. Please go ahead and try using addition before multiplication on a simply math problem: Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?My brain stops working when trying to make exercises like this but I'm pretty sure it will look more awkward than if you assume that 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 or 3x7 = 21.
3*7 = 21.
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Isn't math a language? Saying everyone who can't do algebra is stupid is kind of like saying everyone who can't read English is stupid. I really wish the US would just plain copy the education systems of nations that put out good results instead of constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. I guess it would be too easy to simply use something proven to work.
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On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:13 dudeman001 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know. I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true. If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics. No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept. There's a difference between axioms and notation. The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way. Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved? What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant. Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication. So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2
If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of:
let x = 1
2(1 + 1) = 4
or
2(1) + 1 = 3
How do you know where the brackets go?
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As far as I can remember, I have always loved math!
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On July 29 2012 16:27 yandere991 wrote:
From my understanding of the article was that mathematics serves as a gatekeeper for students that are more into non technical areas and that it is unnecessary that they be barred from their future careers or further education because they cannot pass an area of academics that is totally unrelated to what they will be doing.
Considering that high school algebra is one of those subjects that doesn't require some innate ability (such as naturally articulate people excelling at 4 unit English) and only requires about 1-2 hours per week of grinding questions, it just signals a lack of motivation of doing something that you don't enjoy. TBH most employers would probably apply that reasoning into the workplace and question whether that particular individual would undertake tasks assigned to him that he/she probably won't like.
Meh, maybe my understanding of this article was wrong, reading comprehension was never my strong point (yet I passed it in high school lol)
You're right on everything, other than math being a grind. It might be a grind in year 9 or below, depending on your teacher. But if you have a good math teacher, and want to understand math it can be a lot of fun.
But essentially, yes, hardly anyone needs to learn this stuff, so why force it? If you want to learn math, like me, then awesome. But a lot of people hate math, and won't ever need it.
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Algebra isn't neccessary in itself, but as a roadblock for dumb (or "not so smart herp derp") people.
Honestly, if someone can't pass highschool algebra, he just isn't smart.
And also, they talk about lowering the demands for the SAT? This is really fucking stupid.
Some people are bad in things, some people are good in things, we are not equal, life has winners and losers, deal with it.
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On July 29 2012 16:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:28 Mallard86 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:23 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:16 r.Evo wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers t he reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41. Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first. PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me. PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school? Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention. Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]? The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times? Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere. Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers. Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical. log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
Westerners read from left to right and reading is usually something learned well before algebra. PEMBAS is not a naturally logical conclusion from the perspective of the western reader because it does not always follow the previously set standard of left to right.
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This is nuts. Just because stupid people refuse to put in the work to get good grades doesn't mean we should stop teaching them things. This makes me so angry that some people are actually suggesting such a thing. This should not even be a discussion, if you're a kid you just put in the effort, should it be necessary, to get good grades in every field you're taught.
Not to mention that these things (read, any field taught before university) are fucking easy.
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On July 29 2012 16:33 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 16:32 r.Evo wrote:On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 16:18 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:13 dudeman001 wrote:On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital. Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation. If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth. Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication. Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know. I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true. If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics. No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept. There's a difference between axioms and notation. The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way. Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved? What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant. Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication. So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1. Please go ahead and try using addition before multiplication on a simply math problem: Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?My brain stops working when trying to make exercises like this but I'm pretty sure it will look more awkward than if you assume that 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 or 3x7 = 21. 3*7 = 21.
I hate you.
Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. Her mother eats one apple per week and her father gifts her two per week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?
3+3+3+3+3+3+3-1+2 = 22 or 3x7-1+2 = 22
Please write an equation for THAT with assuming that addition happens before multiplication.
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While we're at it, can we get rid of trigonometry?
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EPT
