A TYPICAL American school day finds some six million high school students and two million college freshmen struggling with algebra. In both high school and college, all too many students are expected to fail. Why do we subject American students to this ordeal? I’ve found myself moving toward the strong view that we shouldn’t.
My question extends beyond algebra and applies more broadly to the usual mathematics sequence, from geometry through calculus. State regents and legislators — and much of the public — take it as self-evident that every young person should be made to master polynomial functions and parametric equations.
There are many defenses of algebra and the virtue of learning it. Most of them sound reasonable on first hearing; many of them I once accepted. But the more I examine them, the clearer it seems that they are largely or wholly wrong — unsupported by research or evidence, or based on wishful logic. (I’m not talking about quantitative skills, critical for informed citizenship and personal finance, but a very different ballgame.)
This debate matters. Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent. In the interest of maintaining rigor, we’re actually depleting our pool of brainpower. I say this as a writer and social scientist whose work relies heavily on the use of numbers. My aim is not to spare students from a difficult subject, but to call attention to the real problems we are causing by misdirecting precious resources.
The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.
Shirley Bagwell, a longtime Tennessee teacher, warns that “to expect all students to master algebra will cause more students to drop out.” For those who stay in school, there are often “exit exams,” almost all of which contain an algebra component. In Oklahoma, 33 percent failed to pass last year, as did 35 percent in West Virginia.
Algebra is an onerous stumbling block for all kinds of students: disadvantaged and affluent, black and white. In New Mexico, 43 percent of white students fell below “proficient,” along with 39 percent in Tennessee. Even well-endowed schools have otherwise talented students who are impeded by algebra, to say nothing of calculus and trigonometry.
California’s two university systems, for instance, consider applications only from students who have taken three years of mathematics and in that way exclude many applicants who might excel in fields like art or history. Community college students face an equally prohibitive mathematics wall. A study of two-year schools found that fewer than a quarter of their entrants passed the algebra classes they were required to take.
“There are students taking these courses three, four, five times,” says Barbara Bonham of Appalachian State University. While some ultimately pass, she adds, “many drop out.”
Another dropout statistic should cause equal chagrin. Of all who embark on higher education, only 58 percent end up with bachelor’s degrees. The main impediment to graduation: freshman math. The City University of New York, where I have taught since 1971, found that 57 percent of its students didn’t pass its mandated algebra course. The depressing conclusion of a faculty report: “failing math at all levels affects retention more than any other academic factor.” A national sample of transcripts found mathematics had twice as many F’s and D’s compared as other subjects.
Nor will just passing grades suffice. Many colleges seek to raise their status by setting a high mathematics bar. Hence, they look for 700 on the math section of the SAT, a height attained in 2009 by only 9 percent of men and 4 percent of women. And it’s not just Ivy League colleges that do this: at schools like Vanderbilt, Rice and Washington University in St. Louis, applicants had best be legacies or athletes if they have scored less than 700 on their math SATs.
It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.
Nor is it clear that the math we learn in the classroom has any relation to the quantitative reasoning we need on the job. John P. Smith III, an educational psychologist at Michigan State University who has studied math education, has found that “mathematical reasoning in workplaces differs markedly from the algorithms taught in school.” Even in jobs that rely on so-called STEM credentials — science, technology, engineering, math — considerable training occurs after hiring, including the kinds of computations that will be required. Toyota, for example, recently chose to locate a plant in a remote Mississippi county, even though its schools are far from stellar. It works with a nearby community college, which has tailored classes in “machine tool mathematics.”
That sort of collaboration has long undergirded German apprenticeship programs. I fully concur that high-tech knowledge is needed to sustain an advanced industrial economy. But we’re deluding ourselves if we believe the solution is largely academic.
A skeptic might argue that, even if our current mathematics education discourages large numbers of students, math itself isn’t to blame. Isn’t this discipline a critical part of education, providing quantitative tools and honing conceptual abilities that are indispensable — especially in our high tech age? In fact, we hear it argued that we have a shortage of graduates with STEM credentials.
Of course, people should learn basic numerical skills: decimals, ratios and estimating, sharpened by a good grounding in arithmetic. But a definitive analysis by the Georgetown Center on Education and the Workforce forecasts that in the decade ahead a mere 5 percent of entry-level workers will need to be proficient in algebra or above. And if there is a shortage of STEM graduates, an equally crucial issue is how many available positions there are for men and women with these skills. A January 2012 analysis from the Georgetown center found 7.5 percent unemployment for engineering graduates and 8.2 percent among computer scientists.
Peter Braunfeld of the University of Illinois tells his students, “Our civilization would collapse without mathematics.” He’s absolutely right.
Algebraic algorithms underpin animated movies, investment strategies and airline ticket prices. And we need people to understand how those things work and to advance our frontiers.
Quantitative literacy clearly is useful in weighing all manner of public policies, from the Affordable Care Act, to the costs and benefits of environmental regulation, to the impact of climate change. Being able to detect and identify ideology at work behind the numbers is of obvious use. Ours is fast becoming a statistical age, which raises the bar for informed citizenship. What is needed is not textbook formulas but greater understanding of where various numbers come from, and what they actually convey.
What of the claim that mathematics sharpens our minds and makes us more intellectually adept as individuals and a citizen body? It’s true that mathematics requires mental exertion. But there’s no evidence that being able to prove (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² leads to more credible political opinions or social analysis.
Many of those who struggled through a traditional math regimen feel that doing so annealed their character. This may or may not speak to the fact that institutions and occupations often install prerequisites just to look rigorous — hardly a rational justification for maintaining so many mathematics mandates. Certification programs for veterinary technicians require algebra, although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status.
It’s not hard to understand why Caltech and M.I.T. want everyone to be proficient in mathematics. But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar. Demanding algebra across the board actually skews a student body, not necessarily for the better.
I WANT to end on a positive note. Mathematics, both pure and applied, is integral to our civilization, whether the realm is aesthetic or electronic. But for most adults, it is more feared or revered than understood. It’s clear that requiring algebra for everyone has not increased our appreciation of a calling someone once called “the poetry of the universe.” (How many college graduates remember what Fermat’s dilemma was all about?)
Instead of investing so much of our academic energy in a subject that blocks further attainment for much of our population, I propose that we start thinking about alternatives. Thus mathematics teachers at every level could create exciting courses in what I call “citizen statistics.” This would not be a backdoor version of algebra, as in the Advanced Placement syllabus. Nor would it focus on equations used by scholars when they write for one another. Instead, it would familiarize students with the kinds of numbers that describe and delineate our personal and public lives.
It could, for example, teach students how the Consumer Price Index is computed, what is included and how each item in the index is weighted — and include discussion about which items should be included and what weights they should be given.
This need not involve dumbing down. Researching the reliability of numbers can be as demanding as geometry. More and more colleges are requiring courses in “quantitative reasoning.” In fact, we should be starting that in kindergarten.
I hope that mathematics departments can also create courses in the history and philosophy of their discipline, as well as its applications in early cultures. Why not mathematics in art and music — even poetry — along with its role in assorted sciences? The aim would be to treat mathematics as a liberal art, making it as accessible and welcoming as sculpture or ballet. If we rethink how the discipline is conceived, word will get around and math enrollments are bound to rise. It can only help. Of the 1.7 million bachelor’s degrees awarded in 2010, only 15,396 — less than 1 percent — were in mathematics.
I’ve observed a host of high school and college classes, from Michigan to Mississippi, and have been impressed by conscientious teaching and dutiful students. I’ll grant that with an outpouring of resources, we could reclaim many dropouts and help them get through quadratic equations. But that would misuse teaching talent and student effort. It would be far better to reduce, not expand, the mathematics we ask young people to imbibe. (That said, I do not advocate vocational tracks for students considered, almost always unfairly, as less studious.)
Yes, young people should learn to read and write and do long division, whether they want to or not. But there is no reason to force them to grasp vectorial angles and discontinuous functions. Think of math as a huge boulder we make everyone pull, without assessing what all this pain achieves. So why require it, without alternatives or exceptions? Thus far I haven’t found a compelling answer.
Andrew Hacker is an emeritus professor of political science at Queens College, City University of New York, and a co-author of “Higher Education? How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids — and What We Can Do About It.”
The article asks whether or not teaching algebra is needed and whether its worthwhile given the high amounts of drop-outs associated to failing algebra.
As a mathematician, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the article, in that some people need to know algebra (I need to know algebra), but not everyone does. Not everyone will be a mathematician, statistician, engineer, scientist, economist, etc, and unless you're doing these types of jobs you don't need to know algebra. In fact, most of these professions require knowledge about computer coding more than algebra. These types of jobs also demand a good understanding of the subject matter and being proficient in algebra or calculus or math in general is essential to developing this knowledge
But obviously we cant stop teaching algebra given that it is essential that at least some people in society know algebra and math. One of the complaints in the article is that many universities use math results as an entrance criteria even for subjects that are not related to math. This obviously needs to change, but since it is necessary to teach math and algebra, and as long as most people find it hard (really, it's not hard in high school), I don't see the practice changing even though it should.
I don't think the article's example of teaching how the CPI works is a good one. Understanding the CPI requires algebra, and understanding how it changes when it's parts changes, also requires algebra. Nor do I think current math courses should be dumbed down to this level, particularly at the university level. University level math courses taught by the math faculty are for mathematicians. Math courses should be about math, i.e. algebra, analysis, geometry, etc. taught rigorously and mathematically. Instead, students should not be required to learn math if they don't want to.
So, for all those smart people, that aren't mathematically inclined, what should be taught instead? Recently, Tim Gowers (who is a Fields medalist), suggests we teach people to be mathematically literate. He gives his thoughts and some examples of Fermi problems (these are a favorite at job interviews at top firms) and questions related to games and strategies to encourage thinking like a mathematician. You can read his experience with teaching such a math class here. I agree with Gowers.
The article asks whether or not teaching algebra is needed and whether its worthwhile given the high amounts of drop-outs associated to failing algebra.
As a mathematician, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the article, in that some people need to know algebra (I need to know algebra), but not everyone does. Not everyone will be a mathematician, statistician, engineer, scientist, economist, etc, and unless you're doing these types of jobs you don't need to know algebra. In fact, most of these professions require knowledge about computer coding more than algebra. These types of jobs also requires a good understanding of the subject matter and being proficient in algebra or calculus or math in general is essential to developing this knowledge
But obviously we cant stop teaching algebra given that it is essential that at least some people in society know algebra and math. One of the complaints in the article is that many universities use math results as an entrance criteria even for subjects that are not related to math. This obviously needs to change, but since it is necessary to teach math and algebra, and as long as most people find it hard (really, it's not hard in high school), I don't see the practice changing even though it should.
I don't think the article's example of teaching how the CPI works is a good one. Understanding the CPI requires algebra, and understanding how it changes when it's parts changes, also requires algebra.
So for all those smart people, that aren't mathematically inclined, what should be taught instead? Recently, Tim Gowers (who is a Fields medalist), suggests we teach people to be mathematically literate. He gives http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/how-should-mathematics-be-taught-to-non-mathematicians/]examples of Fermi problems (these are a favorite at job interviews at top firms) and questions relating to games and strategy to encourage thinking like a mathematician. You can read his experience with teaching such a math class http://gowers.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/a-trip-to-watford-grammar-school-for-boys/]here.
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I don't need to know history to do most jobs. Should people still learn it? Obviously yes. Honestly basic algebra isn't hard. I'm not the greatest at math but it was fairly simple. If it was something like trigonometry then sure, but if you can't learn algebra you probably can't learn a lot of things or apply yourself enough to figure it out.
Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.
Life is math, if you wanted educated people, math at the algebraic level is always going to be needed. I mean, granted you are never going to need to use integral calculus or even F.O.I.L things but that is not exactly the point of education at that level. You need to give children a sampling of everything to know what they like or are good at, and you need to at least give them basic knowledge of life in general. I mean chemistry is probably the most useless subject for the masses to take, because you really won't use it unless you become a doctor or chemist etc, but to know how the world actually works is very useful, not because you'll use it but for the sake of knowledge itself.
The solution to failing math scores in school is not to give up the curriculum, it is to improve teaching in schools to the point where students are prepared to learn algebra when they encounter it at school. Giving up the curriculum will tank the country's already down-trending competitiveness in the global market.
This is funny to me because I absolutely hate algebra. I finished up Diff Eq last semester and the only part I hated about it (and cal 3) was all the algebra you had to do after you set everything up.
If you're not interested in a career that uses any math at all, then I don't really see the point in learning it. I agree about the Fermi problems though. The logic and thinking skills must be gained somehow. It's just that no one's going to risk not taking algebra in favor of something like fermi problems and getting screwed later on when you may have to do algebra.
I do agree with using math as a measure for university's though. Even if you're terrible at math, the tests they usually give are absurdly easy. And they're typically online, with a calculator, and with plenty of time. There really isn't an excuse for doing poorly even if you're a "bright student that isn't mathematically inclined". If you bomb a test of basic algebra some places aren't going to let you take entry level physics, and I think that is completely fine. I've never heard of them excluding non-math classes from a math entrance test though.
I see algebra as a simple problem-solving technique that mathematicians use to guide someone with no knowledge of higher math into learning how to solve said problems. Honestly, one probably needs to have growth in their intelligence, and learning something new (like algebra) expands the ability to learn new concepts and understand semi-intelligent problem-solving using numbers, and my favorite in high school - WORD PROBLEMS - make math pretty enjoyable in my opinion.
To say someone doesn't need to learn something is horseshit. The United States educational system has become rather lazy and it's translating into the growing youth. I graduated 3 years ago, and I would say that it was fairly easy to get through high school as it is, and I really did not put much of an effort (though I was naturally pretty good at memorizing and test taking). I would say that my classmates were fairly below average at that point (half of a 200 person class (small school) didn't pursue higher education. It's because the US school systems aren't allowing students to engage in learning, and they just breeze through and don't bother with college. Claiming that a subject is necessary to learn or not is not the sort of thing that should be argued, because people have been learning algebra for centuries, during times when our educational system was the tops. But now, with lazy students and even lazier teachers and boards of education, things are worsening for us.
On July 29 2012 15:07 Seiferz wrote: This is funny to me because I absolutely hate algebra. I finished up Diff Eq last semester and the only part I hated about it (and cal 3) was all the algebra you had to do after you set everything up.
If you're not interested in a career that uses any math at all, then I don't really see the point in learning it. I agree about the Fermi problems though. The logic and thinking skills must be gained somehow. It's just that no one's going to risk not taking algebra in favor of something like fermi problems and getting screwed later on when you may have to do algebra.
I do agree with using math as a measure for university's though. Even if you're terrible at math, the tests they usually give are absurdly easy. And they're typically online, with a calculator, and with plenty of time. There really isn't an excuse for doing poorly even if you're a "bright student that isn't mathematically inclined". If you bomb a test of basic algebra some places aren't going to let you take entry level physics, and I think that is completely fine. I've never heard of them excluding non-math classes from a math entrance test though.
You never know what you're going to do in life. Just because you want to do something as a career doesn't mean you'll end up there. Just because you don't think you're going to need it doesn't mean you wont. The more general your knowledge the better off you are. A lot of people who get majors don't even have careers in the field they majored in. We learn about worthless garbage that will literally never help us everyday, why not learn something useful in the chance that it will help us.
Heard learning to set budgets is a useful skill to have in the real world. Also heard Algebra helps people with that life skill. In all honesty, this reflects more on the state of the education system than the state of the kids trying to get an education. It is what it is.
Edit:
And for the people saying calculus is worthless....just keep in mind that life doesn't always goes as you planned. Classes you thought that were completely useless when you took them may help you get a job directly or indirectly later down the road. Circumstances change and you really rather be prepared sooner rather than later. One of the best ways to get ahead in life is to mix and match seemingly unrelated fields that may become an emerging field in the future. Just look at bioengineering, all the biologists who took classes like upper level math are suddenly ahead of their colleagues, same applies to the engineers.
Standards must be incredibly different in various states. I despise Math and it's easily my worst area of study, but Algebra was a joke. Either my schools teaches an incredibly remedial form, or there's a deeper problem here. ..Now, I would certainly agree with this sentiment in regards to Calculus, or even anything beyond basic Trigonometry. THAT stuff is useless for 95% of professions and deserves to be readjusted for elective/non-mandatory status.
edit: Also, I don't know many people who have their mind made up in 9th grade (when Algebra is usually taught) as to what they want to do with their lives.
I love the sound of the word "algebra". It is etymologically arabic right? It is so different from words like equation, calculus, integral, etc. Having said that, I suck at math, but don't mind learning a thing or two.
This article explores the issue constantly in discussion in American schools. Why do students need to learn "x"? When will they ever use it? Are the skills even necessary to pass the course applicable in life?
Sure, a lot of people will never utilize algebra again in their lives. A lot of people will never use history again in their lives, and maybe a person will never open a novel ever again, and English class was a waste of their time. Should we restrict our curriculum to occupational knowledge because these subjects are "useless" and too hard for our students to learn? That's really the fundamental question at play here. My opinion is that your mind is your best tool, and learning every possible thing you can only serves to sharpen it. Many of my best friends didn't care for math (or anything) in high school, but when they got to college, computer science was their choice of major. If our school's curricula didn't demand math of us, and they decided it was worthless and weren't going to take it, their career trajectory would look very different. Of course, we're just talking algebra here, but whose to say what subject isn't next on the chopping block to protect our dropout rates?
The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
On July 29 2012 14:58 RodrigoX wrote: Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.
Life is math, if you wanted educated people, math at the algebraic level is always going to be needed. I mean, granted you are never going to need to use integral calculus or even F.O.I.L things but that is not exactly the point of education at that level. You need to give children a sampling of everything to know what they like or are good at, and you need to at least give them basic knowledge of life in general. I mean chemistry is probably the most useless subject for the masses to take, because you really won't use it unless you become a doctor or chemist etc, but to know how the world actually works is very useful, not because you'll use it but for the sake of knowledge itself.
I use algebra daily too, but seriously, how many people do you think need to know algebra? The article cites some source which places it at 5%.
I'm not saying to stop teaching algebra and I don't think that's what the article says. In fact, the article agrees that society would collapse without math, but 5% of people need to use algebra means that 95% of people don't.
"Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it."
Ridiculous logic. As an educator I find this article incredulous. My job is not necessarily to teach my students such and such a subject, but to teach them how to think and how to learn. If you can't discipline yourself to pass algebra (there is a case to be made for not going much farther than that), then you are not ready for the real world. Algebra and most of geometry, while at times esoteric, have visible real world applications. Educational research also shows that n+1 learning increases mastery much better than n learning. That is to say, if you practice learning something that is just outside your complete grasp (ie: something that is a little bit hard for you), the things you do know are greatly strengthened. By learning algebra, your basic math skills are much, much stronger. So even if you forget all that algebra, your basic math will stay strong forever.
Something the article doesn't mention or talk about is how many kids pass who don't deserve it. I am definitely one to say that I'm not afraid to fail a student if they deserve it, but in most cases in most school districts, there is no incentive for a teacher to fail a student. It means extra conferences, paperwork, phone calls, and headaches. Many times the principals won't back up the teacher and they'll be accused of being unfair. At the end of the year students who deserve to fail get passed with Ds.
The article even points out that other countries that do better in math do better because of discipline rather than "just being smart." Well isn't that what we want for our students? The problem is not with the subject, and very rarely with the teaching methods or the teachers. More often than not the problems arise from a home/outside of school environment that is not conducive to learning.
I've heard a lot about how some kids just aren't good students. That's ok, and a truth I am more than willing to accept, but the reality is that just because you are not good at something doesn't mean you have to be bad at it.
Neil Degrasse Tyson - "You may never be the best at something, but you can always get better."
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
Congrats to the author to finally discover that math, like any other subject, have areas which it cannot be applied too and thus has no real value for. What brilliance!
Algebra is easy! Although I say that now, in middle school I had to take the pre-algebra course for a second year, but thats because I wasn't paying attention in class and was busy not doing my homework at home so I could play video games.
Now the article does have a good argument, but I feel like if I wasn't forced to take math in Highschool, I would have never learned to love it.
I also feel like many of the students at my high school who are retaking algebra over and over again simply don't focus on school itself. They don't just fail at math, but they don't do their english homework and don't study for history. Don't you think the problem is bigger than, "Teach less math"?
Talking about reverting classes to electives or not teaching a specific class in high school seems a tad over reactive. Some portions of math are not important post high school cause you just won't need them, but I don't think failing in high school is a logical reason to change teaching standards. Algebra is no where near as hard as math gets when it comes to Trig and beyond and when I was in school I started learning Algebra in grade 6 so I spent 7 years doing it from grade 6 to graduating high school. I don't know how different teaching standards are in the US ( from where I live in Canada ) or when you start learning about different elements of different subjects but we pretty much touch base on everything in math except for trig before grade 12 where math becomes an elective you can choose to skip.
I'm sorry, but as a Texan who went to a top 10 high school in Texas (that's not saying too much though :p) I would have to say that we aren't being taught ENOUGH algebra.
It is true that is isn't very crucial for most, but I consider it a simple part of the collective weight that the education must have.
Everyone can learn Algebra if that is the only subject they have all year. Everyone can learn history if that is the only subject they have all year.
The point is proving that you can carry the collective weight. Other than that, not much of what you learn in high school is really that important. The difference between having a high school diploma and not having a high school diploma is non-existent when you don't pursue higher education.
Do you want us to be able to do anything with engineering and science ever? like improve technology or build things? Do you want there to be a starcraft 3 one day?
If you answered yes to any of those, yes algebra should be taught
I realise this is talking about teaching it to everyone or not, rather than just people interested in science, but foundations in maths are important to develop early (before students make decisions about the directions of their study) so that more advanced things can be taught in later years
On July 29 2012 15:20 Twelve12 wrote: Do you want us to be able to do anything with engineering and science ever? like improve technology or build things? Do you want there to be a starcraft 3 one day?
If you answered yes to any of those, yes algebra should be taught
Did you read the OP or the article?
I'm not saying that we should cease all teaching of algebra. I'm saying that it shouldn't be required because hardly anyone would need to use algebra beyond school.
Being an engineer requires that you know algebra and math in general. But more importantly, it requires that you know how to code in MATLAB.
America's education system is totally fucked if we have reached a point where we actually have to ask the question "is algebra necessary?" What couldn't be more necessary than boosting the mathematically capibilities of our students this generation and future generations in our increasingly complex world?
On July 29 2012 15:24 setzer wrote: America's education system is totally fucked if we have reached a point where we actually have to ask the question "is algebra necessary?" What couldn't be more necessary than boosting the mathematically capibilities of our students this generation and future generations in our increasingly complex world?
Did you quote that off some education policy speech?
On July 29 2012 14:58 RodrigoX wrote: Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.
Life is math, if you wanted educated people, math at the algebraic level is always going to be needed. I mean, granted you are never going to need to use integral calculus or even F.O.I.L things but that is not exactly the point of education at that level. You need to give children a sampling of everything to know what they like or are good at, and you need to at least give them basic knowledge of life in general. I mean chemistry is probably the most useless subject for the masses to take, because you really won't use it unless you become a doctor or chemist etc, but to know how the world actually works is very useful, not because you'll use it but for the sake of knowledge itself.
I use algebra daily too, but seriously, how many people do you think need to know algebra? The article cites some source which places it at 5%.
I'm not saying to stop teaching algebra and I don't think that's what the article says. In fact, the article agrees that society would collapse without math, but 5% of people need to use algebra means that 95% of people don't.
And I have no wish to force it upon them.
Well I guess my point, is that this term "need" is a useless term. To be quite honest, to survive, we literally only need the ability to forage food and find shelter. What I am saying is that regardless of this term need, people need to know algebra because if they don't they are quite legitimately stupid people. This thing that someone can know JUST biology and ONLY biology is a bad idea. People need to be educated in an array of subjects, to truly understand one singular subject.
A great analogy (maybe not even an analogy) is this. If you want to understand Sociology, you need to understand Psychology. To understand Psychology, you need to understand Biology. To understand Biology, you need to understand Chemistry. To understand Chemistry, you need to understand Physics, and to understand Physics, you need to understand Math. That's a fact, and that's why people need to learn algebra.
Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic about the human race, but I don't think it's a problem with the subject being too hard, it's a problem with the educator / education system.
In defense of the strugglers, some people just can't do math. They are brilliant at other things, but numbers make their head spin.
I think math should be integral in any school curriculum, but we need to also recognize when we would be better off making the kids better at what they're already good at. If Johnny shows early adeptness and passion for the guitar, we should push him to dedicate his time to learning scales instead of some math he will learn to despise.
It's cases like these where kids get bored or frustrated and learn to hate the system.
You see. I've said this for years. Algebra is useless for the MOST part in normal daily life. However, there are some appications that it is used for. Not many.
Forcing people to know quadraic equasion? how many times in life have you used it lol? None? Kay...
I know how to multiply, divide, subtract and add. Hey that works well for being a buisness manager. Then again im not in a mathmatics, science, field where...it would be useful?
How the hell do you know what you're gonna be doing when you're 13 years old? I know a lot of people who have changed their minds and became interested in the sciences, math, etc. There's a lot of people who will go into a job not needing to learn ANYTHING past the 6th grade. If you're in manual labor what exactly do you need to know? Fact is, you need building blocks in your life once you finally do have an idea, and if not, then how is being smarter and just knowing what a lot of people believe a person should know a bad thing. History, chemistry, physics, writing, math, biology? Should we teach none of those things?
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
EDIT: BTW, the current numbers for that poll: 40: 72k 0: 1.9 million 20: 420k 15: 782k
partially disagree. math is useful, but i feel you really need to hit home with relevancy. i remember in middle school where we had to do partial fraction decomposition (i forget what that even was) and the exercises were long and tedious, definitely didn't make me a fan of mathematics. i think there is definitely a limit to having your everyday middle schooler simplify the most intricate complex polynomials.
i really enjoyed calculus since my teacher kept giving us real world applications and really knew how to tie all the concepts together.
"You're not here because you'll need whatever you're going to learn for your entire life. You're mostly here to learn HOW to learn certain things - if you get some cool stuff that's helpful down the road then that's a bonus."
Quote my math teacher from 11th grade.
If there is a 40% failure rate in a single subject and on top of that other countries manage to teach more about it in less time then it's not the subjects fault.
Edit: In my school (standard Gymnasium) we had about 5% of people having to repeat classes and that's not exactly a low rate for Bavaria specifically. I also genuinely doubt that the algebra we learned was considerably harder than at the schools that article refers to.
The main problem with this article is that it once again highlights the deep anti-intellectualism of the United States. "We cant do this well AND its not useful in direct applications for most people so lets abolish it!"
The fact of the matter is somehow, miraculously, countries as diverse as Finland and China manage to teach algebra to their kids well enough. But no, it cant be the American education system, it has to be the subject!
There are serious problems with education in the U.S. which is why you see so many companies trying to attract foreigners for the very skilled jobs.
I don't think this is necessarily a question about algebra specifically, but the education system does need to do a better job at being aware of the current labor markets and training the students accordingly.
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
Really?
I think if you want to pursue any sort of technical field (engineering, sciences, economics, etc.), then I think you would need algebra. Do you disagree?
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
Thank you.
I agree with some of the points the author of the article makes, but it rubs me the wrong way that he titles his article "Is Algebra Necessary?" when he's really talking about higher levels of math (as he says himself "My question extends beyond algebra and applies more broadly to the usual mathematics sequence, from geometry through calculus."). The prospect of getting rid of algebra in schools makes me want to SCREAM out in frustration, which makes it harder for me to focus on what the article is actually trying to get at.
I think all students should be taught some basic logic (which helps you avoid making false conclusions) and statistics (which helps you avoid confusing correlation with causation), and enough math to understand some of the grittier details about statistics, so kids don't feel like there's too much hand waving involved. Also, math is useful because it gets kids problem solving (though I realize math is not the only form of problem solving out there - AP Java would be sexy awesome to get into as many schools as possible).
Everything the article stated about how poorly kids do in math in the USA doesn't imply that there's a problem with math. It implies there's a problem with math OR there's a problem with the way it's taught OR there's a problem with the way kids are engaged in schools OR math is the only subject somewhat resistant to grade inflation OR there's a wide distribution in how well kids do in math between different groups (such as socioeconomic classes) that have a more obvious effect in math OR some combination of the above or other explanations. (See how studying logical implication would be useful?)
Regardless, I think everyone can agree that the USA needs more fucking money in its education system, and some sort of reform.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operations is simply a human convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
Dropouts aren't the problem we should be attacking. Hell, we could lower the standards so god damn low that everyone would pass, but what would be the point then? Is that what we should do?
in a nut shell, he mostly argues that maths classes are necessary, but algebra is not.
I kind of agree with him, as in, I don't think algebra is necessary, but it's helpful. Like German, French, and woodworking. I do have the impression that those who fail and struggle with algebra in high school are probably just lazy.
I knew a girl who was absolutely terrible at maths (70s on tests), after I had tutored her, she was getting straight 90s. It's really not that hard.
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
Really?
I think if you want to pursue any sort of technical field (engineering, sciences, economics, etc.), then I think you would need algebra. Do you disagree?
I think if you actually read the OP, you'd know that the answer is: no, I don't disagree.
Yes, let's cater more to the morons (aka probably kids who just don't give a fuck) and make the education system dumber which just makes kids feel like they can give a shit even less than before.
Algebra is not necessary, but reading/wiriting English isn't either. Illiterate people get around, it's just inconvenient.
I use simple algebra nearly every day, whether it be for light theory crafting in games, interest rates in investments, figuring out how to spend my money, or to see what grade I need to achieve a certain score in one of my classes. When driving, I can use it to properly estimate my ETA. And I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking about, because I do all kinds of simple mental math all the time for various reasons. I could do without, but I guess then a lot more facets of my life would be approximative. And plus I need it in school - even though it's political science, we work with stats a lot, and so you inevitably need algebra when you start digging in there.
So I disagree. While it's true that we're not all mathematicians, but basic algebra has some convenient uses, so it can become some sort of mental trick to people, rather than abstract, meaningless numbers that they shove onto a sheet of paper to get a good grade in school. Algebra is part of "wisdom", which is the difference between kids and adults, and it's part of what allows us to make intelligent decisions. Not to mention learning maths in general help with critical thinking, so I would argue there are multiple ways in which algebra can help a person with their finances. And we all deal with money all the time.
On the other hand, I have no clue why I was put through the pain of calculus. I never find myself needing to calculate the area below the curve. That said, I actually do value the knowledge regardless.
I find it that if you are struggling on algebra, you are struggling with basic arithmetics as well. Algebra doesn't really have that much going on in terms of what you have to remember. Geometry, Trigonometry, and Calculus have many mathematical values you have to memorize in order to get equations right.
I was surprised to see how many people fail their high school exit exams on algebra at my school. I'm not saying they're stupid, but maybe they need to go over elementary math.
It's not a matter of a subject being too hard or unnecessary, it's a matter of kids being lazy, parents being shitty, and a general lack of effort among people to... put in an effort.
It's not just mathematics that Algebra classes teach people. There are a number of intangible benefits that so-called "unnecessary" subjects confer. It is a part of what should be a diverse curriculum that challenges kids and stretches their minds. You learn how to think in ways you're not used to, and through that process develop your brain and train yourself to understand difficult concepts and solve problems. Giving up on "difficult" subjects will just brew more problems in the future in the shape of stupider people.
I'm in engineering where algebra is just a stepping stone into calculus but algebra was never something particularly hard once you got the hang of it. If teachers are willing to assign just a little bit of homework (~1 hour a week), it's really easy easy to get kids to understand algebra. Introduce variables, introduce the concept of doing the same thing to both sides, examples of manipulations using basic arithmetic operations, boom basic algebra taught. To make sure fewer people get screwed by algebra, have less curriculum in the same time so teachers have more time to introduce and explain algebra. I see it as one of the most important fundamentals to learning higher level mathematics and applying them. As you go higher and higher in mathematics, algebra literally does not get harder until 2nd year+ in university. It just gets more tedious to do.
Edit::
On reflection, go ahead, dumb down the USA, I don't care, less competition in the job market later.
The article and a lot of people are missing a major point here. Algebra, along with a lot of other fundamental, provide us the basic foundation to reason through problems in life. Even though I don't need to know how to get to X, or even differentials, math at that level helps re-wire my brain, so that I can think and reason on a different level.
On July 29 2012 15:39 r.Evo wrote: "You're not here because you'll need whatever you're going to learn for your entire life. You're mostly here to learn HOW to learn certain things - if you get some cool stuff that's helpful down the road then that's a bonus."
I've never used any of the 2 years of college math that I've learned in my real life, but when I approach a problem, I do so differently now, because I have an upgraded set of tools at my disposal.
If everyone knew calculus, then we wouldn't nearly have as many problems socially, economically, politically, then we do currently.
On July 29 2012 15:46 Jojo131 wrote: Imagine a world, where everyone just stopped making excuses/being lazy...
That dropout rate would be a lot smaller.
Mhmm.. let me put it this way. Judging from the international tests I'm aware of the average German schoolkid is better at stuff like math than the average American. I highly doubt your kids are lazier/less intelligent than ours though. Sure, there are differences in attitude and parenting but I'm pretty sure it would help to take a look at teachers and the general educational system. While you're at it, you might think about paying those guys closer to what they actually deserve. :o
Not sure how much teachers make in the US or what qualifications they need for different school types, what I can say however is that the ones over here are also comparatively underpayed.
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
Really?
I think if you want to pursue any sort of technical field (engineering, sciences, economics, etc.), then I think you would need algebra. Do you disagree?
I think if you actually read the OP, you'd know that the answer is: no, I don't disagree.
Then what part about my statement do you disagree about? The fact that I said a large number of careers require it? Maybe I'm biased because I'm in an engineer, but I think a decent percentage of reputable jobs are technical in nature.
This really reminds me of when they started to call pizza a vegatable so that they can say that "herpderp our nation is healthy and eats lots of vegatables", lowering the standards doesn't solve problems.
But seriously, complaining about basic algebra?
x+10=15 x=15-10 x=5
This kind of stuff?
IDK what calculus is, but sure trigonometry isn't that useful for the average Joe, but it isn't that hard to learn either, if you just put some time into it.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
EDIT: BTW, the current numbers for that poll: 40: 72k 0: 1.9 million 20: 420k 15: 782k
I agree we are much worse at math than we should be, but this is just a silly poll designed to confuse people. Parentheses exists for a reason, and nobody would ever write a problem like that. People don't memorize PEMDA because these problems don't exist in the real world. Anyone who writes obfuscated math like that deserves to be slapped.
I think the real problem isn't algebra but the weird fear of mathematics that is specifically terrible in the United states. This might sound weird, but In highschool I did more creative thinking in math classes than any other ones. I feel like because there are universal relations between numbers, math is the one subject that you can seamlessly build upon from one level to the next while tackling increasingly complex problems, and that kind of progression to me is the defining feature of human intelligence. because of this you can take all your past experience to tackle a problem, and that kind of excercise seems essential to developing minds. not to mention mathematical thinking can benefit you in all sorts of careers, like for example music theory is SUPER math based and many princinciples in art have to do with ratios and other mathematical stuff. Even in daily life I find myself using math all the time, like how driving is mental calculus, or how the other day i was wondering on why eating slowly lets you eat more and settled on " well there is probably a steady rate at which you digest and your fullness is just DE(ating)/DT - D(digestion)/DT
annnyways, I think people just arent willing to apply math in any situation unless they absolutely have to, and when they do they just follow rules given by their teachers instead of logic. like in my stats class I was arguing with my ex over whether a type 1 error is inherently worse than a type 2 error. she insisted that the notes said that type 1 was worse, and I had to stop myself from just screaming " USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE YOU SHEEP"
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
We have a lot of dropouts because subject X is hard for some kids. If we don't make them learn subject X, the ones who would have failed subject X stay in school, raising statistic Y.
Substitute "algebra" for subject X and "graduation rate" for Y and you have the argument presented in the article. What we REALLY need to do is find out how to maximize Y, right?
If you instead use the set of all subjects in our current curriculum for X, it turns out, Y approaches 100%*
am I doing it right?
*minus the few nerds who insist on actually learning something, but we're not worried about them anyway)
This is a tough one because geometry up doesn't have much day to day value for the average person. However, at the same time it is required knowledges for many areas of study. Decreasing drop out rates and/or improving other skills, such as writing, might be more beneficial. Atleast, it's not as useless as art though :D.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
I'm skeptical of school's that are "well-endowed" to have a proportion of students that fail at algebra. If it means financially well-endowed then the point is irrelevant and the inclusion only serves as empty statistics to prove a point as wealthy and poor schools have their share of lazy students. If it means academically well-endowed then I really doubt it, none of the people that I know that went to the academically "well-endowed" school here (such as Ruse, Syd Tech & Boys) ever had trouble with basic algebra.
On July 29 2012 15:39 r.Evo wrote: "You're not here because you'll need whatever you're going to learn for your entire life. You're mostly here to learn HOW to learn certain things - if you get some cool stuff that's helpful down the road then that's a bonus."
Quote my math teacher from 11th grade.
If there is a 40% failure rate in a single subject and on top of that other countries manage to teach more about it in less time then it's not the subjects fault.
Edit: In my school (standard Gymnasium) we had about 5% of people having to repeat classes and that's not exactly a low rate for Bavaria specifically. I also genuinely doubt that the algebra we learned was considerably harder than at the schools that article refers to.
^^ truth The problem isn't with the subject, it's not hard either. It's that kids don't even try... I would like to hear a case where a kid sat down and said, "i need to learn this", and applied himself to learning it. I mean, everyone is capable of learning it. It's just a matter of dedication. Sigh... I'm just speechless as to how someone can even suggest this, I'm glad Canada hasn't been effected. To be honest, the united states should be looking for help from other countries, to give them advice on how they run their education system instead of being ignorant...
If there is anybody reading this thread that has issues with math, algebra in particular... what about it trips you up? Is it the rules? Is it the numbers with no visible real world relevancy? What is it? I really want to understand what issues people have with it.
It's definitely how they teach it that's the problem. I never liked math one bit until I got out of school and started to study it myself (Now I'm going back to a get a physics degree). It really depends on the teacher and especially the math book. Algebra taught me how to be a good problem solver rather than how to solve quadratic equations, thanks in large to the books that I chose (i.e. , Algebra by Gelfand, How to Solve it by G.Polya) and elemetary geometry gave me a taste of logic and proofs (Geometry by harold jacobs / Geometry Revisted Coexter). They should teach algebra in order to teach problem solving skills at the very least, and they should present students with engaging, challenging and relevant problems instead of the mind-numblingly repetitive stuff hashed out at the end of each chapter.
One of the best examples is Geometry by Harold Jacobs. The way you're introduced to equivalent statements is with an Alice in Wonderland comic. "You should say what you mean," -- "I do, at least I mean what I say" ---"Not the same thing a bit!" said the mad hatter, "Why you might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see.'
Some people can think maths should be pretty easy for smart people since it's easy to them, but some people are really smart but can't have good academic results in maths. I agree with the OP.
Yes i think it is necessary, someone can't just say: "I'm bad in subject XY" let's just erase it. I personally nearly dropped several times to in my opinion stupid subjects like french and english. But i somehow managed to get through and I'm now studying where i just need maths and physics so now everything is fine for me.
It is not possible to just do what you want most, like in real life you have to do things you dont like - you just need to accept it as a challenge, otherwise people get lazy and that is what makes the most trouble. Not any Subject - just peoples mindset towards things they dont like.
P.S: Sry for bad english i think it's obvious why i nearly dropped several times^^
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
EDIT: That equation was derived using a very logical process too btw. As with all of the other kinematic equations and other equations that are used all the damned time. Thing is, very intelligent people made it so that it seems invisible as the machines crunch the numbers for you.
On July 29 2012 15:56 TheRabidDeer wrote: If there is anybody reading this thread that has issues with math, algebra in particular... what about it trips you up? Is it the rules? Is it the numbers with no visible real world relevancy? What is it? I really want to understand what issues people have with it.
I've always thought of Math to be like SC2, all the tools are there and there's tons of resources out there to help you if you need them, but at the end of the day you still need to grind in those hours perfecting your mechanics (fundamentals?) to be any good. I guess some people just dont like that. I find it different from (for example) English class, where some people just have the knack for writing good essays and are generally very articulate, so the workload/studying/preperation may vary.
English sure is necessary. Given most of the responses here I'm guessing most people didn't read the article, read just the title, or failed in reading comprehension. He's not saying "let's just excise algebra because everyone is failing." He's asking why people are failing and what value the curriculum has in leading to success. Then he's asking if there are alternative ways to either teach the subject itself or teach the underlying quantitative reasoning skills in an alternative form so that people may potentially still grasp the value of learning math but without the unnecessary formulas and such. Of course there are a lot of arguments against his position, but most people are attacking straw men or reiterating points he's already addressed in the article. Why don't people read the fucking article.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
People drop out because math is too hard? They're dropping out cause they are fucking lazy and wouldn't make it through high school anyway, regardless of the inclusion of mathematics.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
An argument for lowering math requirements in high school because Algebra is too hard is a step in the wrong direction. A very big step.
Don't ever coddle students because things are "hard to learn." It's viewpoints like that author's that worries me about America's future generations. If you remove Algebra, what kind of value does a high school diploma seriously carry?
If someone flashes the E = mc^2 formula on a TV screen, I expect an adult to understand what the goddamn ^2 means.
On July 29 2012 15:56 TheRabidDeer wrote: If there is anybody reading this thread that has issues with math, algebra in particular... what about it trips you up? Is it the rules? Is it the numbers with no visible real world relevancy? What is it? I really want to understand what issues people have with it.
My worst subject in school was French. Closely followed by Math, Physics and then at one point Chemistry. In retrospect the only real answer to why I was horrible at math and physics was because I was lazy as hell. I never did my homework (which worked fine in e.g. languages, history etc.) and the few times I actually sat down and prepared for exams I did okay. Since I'm probably a bad example when it comes to this I also gotta say that the classes I was in HIGHLY varied depending on which teachers we had.
Our rating system goes from 6 (worst) to 1 (best) and I saw the average in my classes swing between 3.5 and 2 simply because we had different teachers. I always felt that math is THE subject where it matters the most how people explain it to you. The ability to say "Okay, I see you guys don't get this, let me explain it in a different way" is what makes or breaks a math teacher imo.
PS: I LOVED STATISTICS THOUGH. omg. We had so many cool problems and situations when we did that stuff. That excited me way more than like proving that (a + b)² = (a + b)(a + b).
I think the math education in the states is already dumbed down enough compared to that of other nations. It's really evident when you're in a public university classroom when half of the room consists of international students.
If you make math a "choice" early on in high school, all you're doing is forcing people to decide their career paths much too early.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
EDIT: That equation was derived using a very logical process too btw. As with all of the other kinematic equations and other equations that are used all the damned time. Thing is, very intelligent people made it so that it seems invisible as the machines crunch the numbers for you.
I think you missed his point. PEMDAS is convention that must be memorized. If you do not memorize it, it can actually be counterlogical to our standard of reading from left to right which is shown by the quoted example.
Sorry, I didn't read the article but I just wanted to give my two cents.
For many people, Algebra is a useless in their everyday lives. There is no need for anyone to learn the quadratic formula. However, if we consider what the quadratic formula is, it's a modified equation of the original form of ax^2 + bx + c = 0. The quadratic formula is a clever little trick a mathematician figured out so someone can find the zeroes by using a handy little formula.
That being said, I am completely against just memorizing a formula just because it will give someone an answer if you plug your numbers in right. I feel that the significance of learning such a formula is to recognize that if we look at a problem at different angles, you can find solutions that couldn't be reached before. A problem in life can be viewed in life as an equation. Solving a quadratic equation involves methods such as factoring, completing the square, graphing, quadratic formula, etc. In certain circumstances, it may be impossible to solve an equation through factoring and a different method needs to be used. I feel learning a skill such as Algebra can only help the way one would think when approaching a problem.
No comment on the Algebra requirement and the level of education.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
Yes Algebra is necessary. More knowledge = more options. If schools have to resort to removing subjects to improve grades then why not make getting a diploma as easy as passing first grade? I mean it will certainly make people feel special.
On July 29 2012 14:58 RodrigoX wrote: Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.
Honestly, this sums everything up when I read the article.
On July 29 2012 15:58 MetalPanda wrote: Some people can think maths should be pretty easy for smart people since it's easy to them, but some people are really smart but can't have good academic results in maths. I agree with the OP.
I have yet to meet a person that is intelligent and did not have good academic results in required mathematics throughout their academic careers.
This reminds me of a story my dad always tells me of shortly after he graduated from university and went to work on the Railway as an Engineer.
His boss called him in for one of those evaluation sessions, where you talk about how you're finding your new job, what you're struggling with and so on, not sure what they're called. Anyways, my Dad told his boss that after 4 years of Uni, he only spent 1 week on Railway Engineering and has no clue what to do at this new job, and how he has been put in charge of people who have been working there for 20+ years and know 10x more then he does. His boss told him that his Uni degree isn't a proof of his knowledge, but rather proves that you are able to work to a certain level, one that those who had worked at that railway without a degree were never able to attain.
So for me, from what I've grown up being taught, not everything has to have a practical meaning. However, showing that you are able to work at a certain level regardless of whether you enjoy a subject area or not is the most important thing. Being able to be put into a situation which you are uncomfortable with and being able to work your way out of it because you have the dedication and motivation to do so, that's whats important.
You shouldn't be removing subjects and dumbing down the school system because people are stupid or just don't give a shit. You don't fail because you're dumb and literally cannot understand the material, you get a lower mark. You fail because you don't put in the time necessary.
On July 29 2012 15:58 MetalPanda wrote: Some people can think maths should be pretty easy for smart people since it's easy to them, but some people are really smart but can't have good academic results in maths. I agree with the OP.
I have yet to meet a person that is intelligent and did not have good academic results in required mathematics throughout their academic careers.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
What is a logical procedure.
For example, Newton's method for finding a root of an equation.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
No, in order to change PEMDAS you'd need to add a few extra parentheses in some places.
From what I experienced in High School, it's not really that algebra was difficult for some people to learn, it was more of that some of the students did not have the motivation to learn it. What needs to change is the ability for our schooling system to motivate our students. This is a process that should be started at a young age as I remember even as an elementary student, I had friends who didn't care about learning anything.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
To not use pemdas relies on the writer to write it exactly how it is intended to be position = [.5(acceleration)[(time)^2]] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position)
This is a simple equation. Equations that get more complex would get more and more muddy and more difficult to read. Also, based upon this you missed a bracket that I had to fix for you. On one of the simple equations. That is just how muddy things get.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
No, in order to change PEMDAS you'd need to add a few extra parentheses in some places.
Adding in parenthesis is still following PEMDAS. How would you know where the parenthesis go if you didnt know PEMDAS?
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
All this school talk has me thinking... is teaching kids an absolute nightmare now? Every little Timmy and Jane probably has a phone where they can post on facebook and play angry birds. Back in my day the most entertaining thing you could possibly do was type "hello" on your upside down calculator...
On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote: There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Going by that logic there is NO reason A should come before B or 1 before 2.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
imo, algebra is just straight up fundamentals.. i knew algebra subconsciously before i learned algebra so it was shit easy for me (since i have really strong fundamentals)
On July 29 2012 16:17 DannyJ wrote: All this school talk has me thinking... is teaching kids an absolute nightmare now? Every little Timmy and Jane probably has a phone where they can post on facebook and play angry birds. Back in my day the most entertaining thing you could possibly do was type "hello" on your upside down calculator...
I just graduated recently, but in my school we typed "BOOBS" to pass the time...
I'm an engineer, so this is probably subjective, but I use algebra almost every day, even non professionally. Everything you learn in maths and science is not about the subject in question, but learning how to solve problems. Algebra teaches logic at the most elementary level.
On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote: There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Going by that logic there is NO reason A should come before B or 1 before 2.
Well technically the order of the letters of the alphabet is also completely arbitrary, it really doesn't matter what sequence they're listed in since the full sequence isn't actually relevant in constructing words...
As for the OP, by that logic if algebra is unnecessary, then so are the 4 years of literary analysis BS aka "English" classes which are mandatory here...
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Holy shit you're awesome. I never actually put thought into why multiplication took place first, just assumed there was a good reason. AND THERE WAS. MY ASSUMPTIONS MUST ALWAYS BE RIGHT I'LL NEVER QUESTION A SINGLE THING AGAIN! Anywho, you're awesome, stay awesome.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Honestly if you fail algebra it means you don't care. There is no excuse for failing algebra. If you fail algebra and drop out of school because of that, then you deserve what you get for doing so.
Knowing the basics of algebra is something I believe everyone needs to know. Other kinds of math like calculus etc. Of course not lol. Having a general knowledge of algebra truly is used very commonly in day to day life, unlike many other forms of math
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
No, in order to change PEMDAS you'd need to add a few extra parentheses in some places.
Adding in parenthesis is still following PEMDAS. How would you know where the parenthesis go if you didnt know PEMDAS?
I could use brackets if you like. The point is, we could easily decide on any random convention for operation order, and we wouldnt have to 'change basically all of math, physics, chemstry' or 'go back in time to the beginnings of creating math'. Math is conceptual - the symbols we use to represent those concepts on paper don't mean a damn thing. The symbols are easily interchangeable, but the concepts stay the same.
On July 29 2012 15:51 nick00bot wrote: I think the real problem isn't algebra but the weird fear of mathematics that is specifically terrible in the United states. This might sound weird, but In highschool I did more creative thinking in math classes than any other ones. I feel like because there are universal relations between numbers, math is the one subject that you can seamlessly build upon from one level to the next while tackling increasingly complex problems, and that kind of progression to me is the defining feature of human intelligence. because of this you can take all your past experience to tackle a problem, and that kind of excercise seems essential to developing minds. not to mention mathematical thinking can benefit you in all sorts of careers, like for example music theory is SUPER math based and many princinciples in art have to do with ratios and other mathematical stuff. Even in daily life I find myself using math all the time, like how driving is mental calculus, or how the other day i was wondering on why eating slowly lets you eat more and settled on " well there is probably a steady rate at which you digest and your fullness is just DE(ating)/DT - D(digestion)/DT
annnyways, I think people just arent willing to apply math in any situation unless they absolutely have to, and when they do they just follow rules given by their teachers instead of logic. like in my stats class I was arguing with my ex over whether a type 1 error is inherently worse than a type 2 error. she insisted that the notes said that type 1 was worse, and I had to stop myself from just screaming " USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE YOU SHEEP"
tl;dr: change the culture, not the math
I agree, it's a cultural problem. If the culture is not finding STEM jobs interesting or highly value education itself like several Asian countries, then of course more Americans will give up learning algebra. That "perseverance" the writer's talking about is motivation.
I do agree with the author's point that we need to focus more on critical thinking, and that we need a larger variety of schools.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
If we can acknowledge that Economics and Finance are both areas in which one would benefit from a knowledge of algebra (and occasionally higher math as well) then I think all we need to do to show that math is a necessary subject is to show that knowledge of Economics and Finance is crucially important to most people's lives.
So, how many people out there do you think have any amount of money? How about debt? Investments?
I mean really, its bad enough that kids can graduate without knowing how compound interest works, now we're not even going to give them the tools necessary to figure it out?
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Now can go to the question as to WHY those conventions came into existance in the first place. Because they make sense in daily life.
I have two apples. You have three times as many apples as me. That means you have 3 times more apples than me. Now we can write that as 2+2+2+2+2+2=6 or 2x3=6.
Do you go in a store where paint is sold and ask why blue is called blue and not yellow?
From my understanding of the article was that mathematics serves as a gatekeeper for students that are more into non technical areas and that it is unnecessary that they be barred from their future careers or further education because they cannot pass an area of academics that is totally unrelated to what they will be doing.
Considering that high school algebra is one of those subjects that doesn't require some innate ability (such as naturally articulate people excelling at 4 unit English) and only requires about 1-2 hours per week of grinding questions, it just signals a lack of motivation of doing something that you don't enjoy. TBH most employers would probably apply that reasoning into the workplace and question whether that particular individual would undertake tasks assigned to him that he/she probably won't like.
Meh, maybe my understanding of this article was wrong, reading comprehension was never my strong point (yet I passed it in high school lol)
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
You said it yourself ' it was created by man' so some guy arbitrarily came up with it. Also not everything is created by man...
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.
My memory of high school maths below Teacher: x + 5 = 7 Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 7- 5 x = 2 2 + 5 = 7 This proves x = 2
Next question x + 8 =11 Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 11- 8 x = 3 3 +8 =11 This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
The article needs to cite an example of 'algebra" I can understand not need to know quadratics/cubics/ differentiation/ anti-differentiation ect, but simple things like the above and pythagoras theorem, I mean even tradesmen/carpenters use these formula's everyday.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
You said it yourself ' it was created by man' so some guy arbitrarily came up with it. Also not everything is created by man...
Everything that is not pure nature is manmade. Last I checked, we dont live in caves and only use our fists while our bodies are naked. So, about 99.9% of your life is manmade.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0. You can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1. You can even apply exp to both sides to get [exp(x+1)]^2=1, so that exp(x+1)=1, and then log both sides to get x+1=0, then x=-1.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
Please go ahead and try using addition before multiplication on a simply math problem:
Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?
My brain stops working when trying to make exercises like this but I'm pretty sure it will look more awkward than if you assume that 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 or 3x7 = 21.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
You said it yourself ' it was created by man' so some guy arbitrarily came up with it. Also not everything is created by man...
Everything that is not pure nature is manmade. Last I checked, we dont live in caves and only use our fists while our bodies are naked. So, about 99.9% of your life is manmade.
lols ahhh good fun. If you're going to define nature as something that lacks mankind's influence, then that is just begging the question. lol I like how you quantified how much is 'manmade' I guess most of the stuff around me is air which is natural and wood which is mostly natural... I could go on, but I've made my point.
On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
Please go ahead and try using addition before multiplication on a simply math problem:
Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?
My brain stops working when trying to make exercises like this but I'm pretty sure it will look more awkward than if you assume that 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 or 3x7 = 21.
Isn't math a language? Saying everyone who can't do algebra is stupid is kind of like saying everyone who can't read English is stupid. I really wish the US would just plain copy the education systems of nations that put out good results instead of constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. I guess it would be too easy to simply use something proven to work.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
On July 29 2012 16:27 yandere991 wrote: From my understanding of the article was that mathematics serves as a gatekeeper for students that are more into non technical areas and that it is unnecessary that they be barred from their future careers or further education because they cannot pass an area of academics that is totally unrelated to what they will be doing.
Considering that high school algebra is one of those subjects that doesn't require some innate ability (such as naturally articulate people excelling at 4 unit English) and only requires about 1-2 hours per week of grinding questions, it just signals a lack of motivation of doing something that you don't enjoy. TBH most employers would probably apply that reasoning into the workplace and question whether that particular individual would undertake tasks assigned to him that he/she probably won't like.
Meh, maybe my understanding of this article was wrong, reading comprehension was never my strong point (yet I passed it in high school lol)
You're right on everything, other than math being a grind. It might be a grind in year 9 or below, depending on your teacher. But if you have a good math teacher, and want to understand math it can be a lot of fun.
But essentially, yes, hardly anyone needs to learn this stuff, so why force it? If you want to learn math, like me, then awesome. But a lot of people hate math, and won't ever need it.
Algebra isn't neccessary in itself, but as a roadblock for dumb (or "not so smart herp derp") people. Honestly, if someone can't pass highschool algebra, he just isn't smart. And also, they talk about lowering the demands for the SAT? This is really fucking stupid.
Some people are bad in things, some people are good in things, we are not equal, life has winners and losers, deal with it.
On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
Westerners read from left to right and reading is usually something learned well before algebra. PEMBAS is not a naturally logical conclusion from the perspective of the western reader because it does not always follow the previously set standard of left to right.
This is nuts. Just because stupid people refuse to put in the work to get good grades doesn't mean we should stop teaching them things. This makes me so angry that some people are actually suggesting such a thing. This should not even be a discussion, if you're a kid you just put in the effort, should it be necessary, to get good grades in every field you're taught.
Not to mention that these things (read, any field taught before university) are fucking easy.
On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
Please go ahead and try using addition before multiplication on a simply math problem:
Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?
My brain stops working when trying to make exercises like this but I'm pretty sure it will look more awkward than if you assume that 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 21 or 3x7 = 21.
3*7 = 21.
I hate you.
Cathy buys 3 apples every day for one week. Her mother eats one apple per week and her father gifts her two per week. How many apples does she have at the end of the week?
3+3+3+3+3+3+3-1+2 = 22 or 3x7-1+2 = 22
Please write an equation for THAT with assuming that addition happens before multiplication.
On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Furthermore,
x * 4 + 8 * 2 = 10 Proper order of operations will make 4x+16=10, and x=-3/2 Without PEMDAS, you could end up with x * 12 * 2 = 10, or 24x = 10 and x=5/6.
With just 2 numbers like 2x+2=0 the number of actions you can actually take is very limited, but with 4 numbers like above you already get into more complicated scenarios without predetermined order.
Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0. You can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1. You can even apply exp to both sides to get [exp(x+1)]^2=1, so that exp(x+1)=1, and then log both sides to get x+1=0, then x=-1.
Following the proper mathematical convention is fundamental to maths. If you can't do it, you get the answer wrong. As such, I don't have any problem with the initial trick problem in this discussion.
Mathematical equations have to be followed logically and in the correct convention to make sense. Equations are not and should not be open to interpretation.
On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
Westerners read from left to right and reading is usually something learned well before algebra. PEMBAS is not a naturally logical conclusion from the perspective of the western reader because it does not always follow the previously set standard of left to right.
Westerners read left to right top to bottom, but many forms of music have you read 2 bars at the same time. Music is not natural.
Also, PEMDAS exists because math generally requires you to use logic, not "natural logic". Whatever that may actually mean.
On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Then the convention I stated, putting x=1 gives 4, under the usual convention it's 3, but that's because 2 different concepts are written. The concept that my example expresses is 2(x+1), so (2x)+1 would be an incorrect translation of the concept -- a misreading.
The simple answer is to track people by scholastic ability like the rest of the civilized world.
This coming fall, my college will have more sections of arithmetic than of Calc 1 and all subsequent math combined. At a glance, it seems like little more than a Pell Grant farm.
On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Are you saying there are different accepted forms of mathematical expression, like different languages?
On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Yes, everyone agrees we do brackets first. Where are the brackets coming from? Who decides where they go? A person is trying to solve this simple problem (or worse still, trying to come up with an equation of their own), but the brackets arent there. What do they do? 2(1 + 1) = 4 is entirely different from 2(1) + 1 = 3, and yet 2x + 1 = 0 could represent either in your world.
Also, 9^2 + 3^2 gets you a different answer from (9+3)*(9+3). One gives you 144 the other gets you 90. That is not purely convention.
On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Are you saying there are different accepted forms of mathematical expression, like different languages?
Usually not, but there are.
For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
Westerners read from left to right and reading is usually something learned well before algebra. PEMBAS is not a naturally logical conclusion from the perspective of the western reader because it does not always follow the previously set standard of left to right.
Westerners read left to right top to bottom, but many forms of music have you read 2 bars at the same time. Music is not natural.
Also, PEMDAS exists because math generally requires you to use logic, not "natural logic". Whatever that may actually mean.
Why dont you actually read your own quote?
You are criticizing the population for not being able to follow a simple logical procedure yet it is not a simple logical procedure if it has not been taught or it has been taught and the knowledge was not retained.
If you want to criticize the population for ignorance then go ahead but dont claim the population is stupid for not being able to follow a simple set of rules when they dont know the rules.
On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Yes, everyone agrees we do brackets first. Where are the brackets coming from? Who decides where they go? A person is trying to solve this simple problem (or worse still, trying to come up with an equation of their own), but the brackets arent there. What do they do? 2(1 + 1) = 4 is entirely different from 2(1) + 1 = 3, and yet 2x + 1 = 0 could represent either in your world.
Also, 9^2 + 3^2 gets you a different answer from (9+3)*(9+3). One gives you 144 the other gets you 90. That is not purely convention.
...Different because you're expressing different concepts.
I think everyone agrees that PEMDAS is a useful convention.
What paralleluniverse is trying to say is that the accepted order-of-operations is a convention that is not inherent to our understanding of math, but is rather a tool to convey mathematical expressions precisely. But nothing's inherently worse about evaluating expression written in Polish notation or expressions that are meant to be evaluated left-to-right---something which programmers might do, though it may look different:
x = 0 x += 2 x *= 4
etc.
Using PEMDAS to evaluate algebraic expressions is just as important as using base 10 numbers. That is, it makes communication much more convenient (and, therefore, educated [in the Western sense] people should know how to use it), so it is indeed sad that so many people got that wrong.
But an actual mathematician is concerned about maps between objects and universal properties rather than explicit constructions (that is, how an object behaves, not how it's written; the written convention is merely for communication's sake), so he reasonably would not see a test of "knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude.
(Edit: if you're a programmer, the last paragraph has a good analogue: you don't care how a library function is implemented [what variable names it uses, if the programmer puts curly braces on their own lines or not, etc.], but rather about the interface it exposes.)
On July 29 2012 16:40 UrsusRex wrote: Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
algebra is like artificial problems, follow a set of rules to figure out an answer. the set of rules require you to focus your thought and think of a way to find the answer. that seems like a pretty transferable skill to me.
On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Then the convention I stated, putting x=1 gives 4, under the usual convention it's 3, but that's because 2 different concepts are written. The concept that my example expresses is 2(x+1), so (2x)+1 would be an incorrect translation of the concept -- a misreading.
On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
Westerners read from left to right and reading is usually something learned well before algebra. PEMBAS is not a naturally logical conclusion from the perspective of the western reader because it does not always follow the previously set standard of left to right.
Westerners read left to right top to bottom, but many forms of music have you read 2 bars at the same time. Music is not natural.
Also, PEMDAS exists because math generally requires you to use logic, not "natural logic". Whatever that may actually mean.
Why dont you actually read your own quote?
You are criticizing the population for not being able to follow a simple logical procedure yet it is not a simple logical procedure if it has not been taught or it has been taught and the knowledge was not retained.
If you want to criticize the population for ignorance then go ahead but dont claim the population is stupid for not being able to follow a simple set of rules when they dont know the rules.
PEMDAS is taught in 4th grade (or earlier) and is used for every single bit of math beyond 4th grade. If you cant retain the knowledge of the foundations in math by the time you are in high school, that is a failure of teaching and learning. If I stopped learning english rules in the 4th grade, that would be a damned shame.
On July 29 2012 16:36 RageBot wrote: Algebra isn't neccessary in itself, but as a roadblock for dumb (or "not so smart herp derp") people. Honestly, if someone can't pass highschool algebra, he just isn't smart. And also, they talk about lowering the demands for the SAT? This is really fucking stupid.
Some people are bad in things, some people are good in things, we are not equal, life has winners and losers, deal with it.
You haven't said why people should be forced to learn algebra when they're not going to use it, and they want to be a mathematician or engineer or whatever.
On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Are you saying there are different accepted forms of mathematical expression, like different languages?
Usually not, but there are.
For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
is there any other way to interpret 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 - 5 + 5 - 5 + 5 * 0 (or whatever the original question was), that is widely accepted?
On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Then the convention I stated, putting x=1 gives 4, under the usual convention it's 3, but that's because 2 different concepts are written. The concept that my example expresses is 2(x+1), so (2x)+1 would be an incorrect translation of the concept -- a misreading.
Why are you arguing about notation?
Because some people think they are sooooo smart because they memorized that the usual convention is to do multiplication before addition, and that our educational system has failed because most people have failed to remember this arbitrary convention.
It reflects the sad state of education that people are obsessively fixated on written notation to prove that people are stupid, instead of the understanding of actual mathematical concepts.
On July 29 2012 16:46 paralleluniverse wrote: For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
Now you are arguing against yourself. If it has to be explained then it is not naturally logical.
log·ic [loj-ik] Show IPA noun 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
That is to say you follow a known pattern. I dont know if I can think of anything off the top of my head that is "naturally logical". Maybe music... MAYBE... though most music has a learned structure too.
Westerners read from left to right and reading is usually something learned well before algebra. PEMBAS is not a naturally logical conclusion from the perspective of the western reader because it does not always follow the previously set standard of left to right.
Westerners read left to right top to bottom, but many forms of music have you read 2 bars at the same time. Music is not natural.
Also, PEMDAS exists because math generally requires you to use logic, not "natural logic". Whatever that may actually mean.
Why dont you actually read your own quote?
You are criticizing the population for not being able to follow a simple logical procedure yet it is not a simple logical procedure if it has not been taught or it has been taught and the knowledge was not retained.
If you want to criticize the population for ignorance then go ahead but dont claim the population is stupid for not being able to follow a simple set of rules when they dont know the rules.
PEMDAS is taught in 4th grade (or earlier) and is used for every single bit of math beyond 4th grade. If you cant retain the knowledge of the foundations in math by the time you are in high school, that is a failure of teaching and learning. If I stopped learning english rules in the 4th grade, that would be a damned shame.
Algebra has more uses than just mathematical ones, it teaches problem solving, which is an important life skill to have.
Also every other country, with a well funded school system, teaches algebra maybe it would be more productive to focus on why American students struggle with algebra than to try and find excuses to not have to learn it. There are obviously some deep flaws in the American school system, because students in other western countries better results aren't because they're harder working, because they're not.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
On a side note: statements like "foil it out" are good examples of how the American math system teaches formulae and algorithms, not mathematics.
On July 29 2012 16:46 paralleluniverse wrote: For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
An inner product is bilinear you noob!
Hermitian inner products aren't... you have to take a Hermitian conjugate on one side.
On July 29 2012 16:48 ]343[ wrote: But an actual mathematician is concerned about maps between objects and universal properties rather than explicit constructions (that is, how an object behaves, not how it's written; the written convention is merely for communication's sake), so he reasonably would not see a test of "knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude.
Knowledge of convention allows you to read and learn from what others have done. Also, its pretty much required for any form of work or publication, where it needs to be checked or certified or whatever.
I would say it's reasonable to accept a "test of knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude for any practical purpose.
On July 29 2012 16:40 UrsusRex wrote: Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
Pragmatism much?
If you have access to databases such as Academic Search Premier, LexisNexis Academic, and so on, you can find dozens of published and peer-reviewed research articles and scientific journals on this.
Besides, why would learning algebra NOT improve your critical thinking skills? As Malgrif said, many of the skills used in logical thinking are used in mathematics. That's pretty much a given...
On July 29 2012 16:40 UrsusRex wrote: Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
Take your high school subjects and rank them from most useful to least useful to the average student. I can guarantee you that algebra is one of the most useful. You don't need history. Your science classes have even more niche uses than your algebra classes. You don't need literature. What's left of high school education?
On July 29 2012 16:46 paralleluniverse wrote: For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
An inner product is bilinear you noob!
Hermitian inner products aren't... you have to take a Hermitian conjugate on one side.
fine sesquilinear or whatever, they are basically linear
On July 29 2012 16:36 RageBot wrote: Algebra isn't neccessary in itself, but as a roadblock for dumb (or "not so smart herp derp") people. Honestly, if someone can't pass highschool algebra, he just isn't smart. And also, they talk about lowering the demands for the SAT? This is really fucking stupid.
Some people are bad in things, some people are good in things, we are not equal, life has winners and losers, deal with it.
You haven't said why people should be forced to learn algebra when they're not going to use it, and they want to be a mathematician or engineer or whatever.
Why are people forced to learn science or history when they're not going to use it?
Honestly, I think this is stupid and disgusting. I read this as people wanting to justify stupidity and ignorance; blaming it on external factors rather than simply accepting that the education system and the societal attitude towards education in the United States is shit and needs fixing. Failure in school is not simply the fault of the school system, parents and families of the students are equally at fault. If your student/child is failing, get him help instead of complaining. Stop buying your 10 year old children fuckin iPhones and invest that money in a tutor instead. Nut up and learn your shit.
When I was a kid in elementary or middle school, my parents (namely my mom) made me do extra academic work on top of school assigned homework. It wasn't much; just 15-20 minutes a day of arithmetic or other stuff. While that's definitely not the entire reason why, all through elementary, middle, and high school I breezed through every fucking class, while the vast majority of my classmates all struggled at some point or another. Yea, some kids are more naturally gifted and smarter than others, but honestly, if you (or your parents) give a shit and made you put effort into it, I don't believe anyone (unless you have some kind of learning disorder) should ever have to even study until you get to college or are taking AP/IB courses in high school. US education standards are shit low.
These opinion writers can whine all they want, but it still doesn't mask the fact that the cutting edge of technological advances are slowly moving out of the United States. While the US is still the leading innovator in many areas, we're already lagging hard in terms of growth in innovation. While our economic policies, it certainly doesn't help that as a society, we hate education.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
On a side note: statements like "foil it out" are good examples of how the American math system teaches formulae and algorithms, not mathematics.
The american math system has far worse problems than that. All throughout learning math, we are told things are impossible. Then a year later, we learn how to solve what was previously thought to be impossible. I am curious though, how would you teach somebody to do (9+3)(9+3) without telling them about foil? I only ever learned it because of that, and would like another perspective.
On July 29 2012 16:36 RageBot wrote: Algebra isn't neccessary in itself, but as a roadblock for dumb (or "not so smart herp derp") people. Honestly, if someone can't pass highschool algebra, he just isn't smart. And also, they talk about lowering the demands for the SAT? This is really fucking stupid.
Some people are bad in things, some people are good in things, we are not equal, life has winners and losers, deal with it.
You haven't said why people should be forced to learn algebra when they're not going to use it, and they want to be a mathematician or engineer or whatever.
I've clearly did say that. I don't think most people should know algebra, I said that it's easy, and that if you can't finish highschool algebra, you're either an idiot, or should be treated as such by society until you can prove otherwise (by opening a successful business, for example). A highschool diploma loses it's worth if you make it easier and easier, if everyone can have one, than actually, no one has one, because it stopped meaning anything. It's the same for Bachelor degrees in america right now, they are so damn easy, and so many people have them, that they are practically worthless, you make people waste years of their lives, getting something that isn't worth anything unless you get a masters degree. I think, if anything, we should amp the difficulty of everything, that way, people won't waste years of their lives getting something that is worthless, and the capable people would be recognized earlier.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
You could only come to the conclusion that (9+3)^2 =9^2+3^2 if you don't know how to expand brackets properly, thats not a problem with order its just wrong.
On July 29 2012 16:48 ]343[ wrote: But an actual mathematician is concerned about maps between objects and universal properties rather than explicit constructions (that is, how an object behaves, not how it's written; the written convention is merely for communication's sake), so he reasonably would not see a test of "knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude.
Knowledge of convention allows you to read and learn from what others have done. Also, its pretty much required for any form of work or publication, where it needs to be checked or certified or whatever.
I would say it's reasonable to accept a "test of knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude for any practical purpose.
Hmm, let me try to reword that then. Testing knowledge of convention is a test of memory, not a test of mathematical reasoning ability (which is what mathematicians value).
Anyway, more on topic: this (admittedly over-referenced) article by Lockhart has much to say on this issue. The problem isn't that algebra is unnecessary, but that the way it (and everything up to intro undergraduate math) is taught in the US turns people off.
On July 29 2012 16:40 UrsusRex wrote: Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
The foundations of mathematical word problems are in algebra and these problems do improve critical thinking skills. Without algebra, the only math possible would be pure memorization and does nothing to improve critical thinking.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
You could only come to the conclusion that (9+3)^2 =9^2+3^2 if you don't know how to expand brackets properly, thats not a problem with order its just wrong.
How did you learn to expand brackets properly? Is that a "natural logic"? No, its something you learned.
On July 29 2012 16:46 paralleluniverse wrote: For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
An inner product is bilinear you noob!
No, that's only true of the real inner product. In general the inner product has conjugate symmetry.
If you define linearity in the second slot instead of the first, then the first becomes conjugate linear, not linear.
On July 29 2012 16:46 paralleluniverse wrote: For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
An inner product is bilinear you noob!
No, that's only true of the real inner product. In general the inner product has conjugate symmetry.
If you define linearity in the second slot instead of the first, then the first becomes conjugate linear, not linear.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
You could only come to the conclusion that (9+3)^2 =9^2+3^2 if you don't know how to expand brackets properly, thats not a problem with order its just wrong.
How did you learn to expand brackets properly? Is that a "natural logic"? No, its something you learned.
everything was thought of at one point, not learned
On July 29 2012 14:58 RodrigoX wrote: Well, I mean I use algebra on a daily basis, and the argument "Let's just not teach it, because stupid people exist" really is not good logic.
Life is math, if you wanted educated people, math at the algebraic level is always going to be needed. I mean, granted you are never going to need to use integral calculus or even F.O.I.L things but that is not exactly the point of education at that level. You need to give children a sampling of everything to know what they like or are good at, and you need to at least give them basic knowledge of life in general. I mean chemistry is probably the most useless subject for the masses to take, because you really won't use it unless you become a doctor or chemist etc, but to know how the world actually works is very useful, not because you'll use it but for the sake of knowledge itself.
I use algebra daily too, but seriously, how many people do you think need to know algebra? The article cites some source which places it at 5%.
I'm not saying to stop teaching algebra and I don't think that's what the article says. In fact, the article agrees that society would collapse without math, but 5% of people need to use algebra means that 95% of people don't.
And I have no wish to force it upon them.
Everyone needs to know basic algebra. Because in order to develop a budget you have to use basic algebra to solve for any unknown expenditures to see how much spare money you have to work with. Any time you solve for an unknown quantity you are going to use algebra. Now does everyone need to know Algebra 2 and other advanced math like trig and calc? Probably not.
Very good quality OP. My background is currently studying a Masters in Chemistry, Math Minor.
"If I'm never gonna use it, why should I be forced to learn it and be tested on it?" Ah, such a familiar gripe of high-school students kids. A lot of the time (in my experience) the people who don't do well in math don't enjoy it, its a mysterious drudgery - they fear it. This is partly a cultural thing where its generally condoned and even slightly encouraged to dislike math, because 'everyone does', '~the cool kids~ don't like it'. Does that sound like a subject you'd excel in? That's because we've got a really screwed up system where the voice of teenagers and their leisure is valued and heard more than -doing well in school-. How many Korean students would foster an attitude 'oh I don't like it, and no one does, so why do I have to do it waaaaa'. They'll be left behind in an instant. [there are problems when you go too hardcore with a system so hard you need 4 hours of extra study-academy a day to keep up, but the point is, its generally uncool and ill-valued in US culture, go figure its not a priority but a stumbling block].
You can't just memorize trivia or themes and details from some books, you have to internalize the skills and ideas (rather than just the material) and apply it to whatever's thrown at you. Ok when your entire system is geared around big exams its a bit different (you learn for the sake of the exams), but my point is Mathematics is valuable because it gives you a developed way to think about the world, on an equal level that English does for thoughts emotions and ideas. i.e. IT'S VALUABLE Again (sorry, I didn't have the misfortune of doing US high-school math) no wonder students (a large majority) have no drive for doing math, the type of math they're forced to do sucks! It's boring as hell, when people give you mysterious equations, that you have no idea where they come from, and no idea 'what it is about them that makes them work'. But you need to know the basic building blocks to be able to make a cool structure or creation. So people are stuck on doing algebra? Well one reason is probably the greatest use and extent of algebra on a high-school level is to do shitty un-inspiring problems like those PEMDAS or F.O.I.L. ones. Those suck, really, because they're like two kids with a measly grasp of school-level-Spanish trying to 'find more words that rhyme' in that language. You can get somewhere, maybe it'd be a bit fun, but there's so much more you can do with it, so much further and deeper you can go with it! College maths is where stuff gets fun! Until you can handle triple integrals and differential equations, you won't be able to actually use Maxwell's Equations of electromagnetism. Until you do linear and vector algebra, dot product, cross product, determinant and even just matrices will have no geometrical meaning and just be some mystery ritual.
On July 29 2012 16:48 ]343[ wrote: But an actual mathematician is concerned about maps between objects and universal properties rather than explicit constructions (that is, how an object behaves, not how it's written; the written convention is merely for communication's sake), so he reasonably would not see a test of "knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude.
Knowledge of convention allows you to read and learn from what others have done. Also, its pretty much required for any form of work or publication, where it needs to be checked or certified or whatever.
I would say it's reasonable to accept a "test of knowledge of convention" as a test of mathematical aptitude for any practical purpose.
Hmm, let me try to reword that then. Testing knowledge of convention is a test of memory, not a test of mathematical reasoning ability (which is what mathematicians value).
Anyway, more on topic: this (admittedly over-referenced) article has much to say on this issue. The problem isn't that algebra is unnecessary, but that the way it's taught in the US turns people off.
Thanks for your articulate post. The link to your article isn't working.
page 16. Between grades 8 and 9, you're expected to learn simple problems involving variables (5x+3 = ?, x = 4) and linear equations, get introduced to higher level polynomials and similar things, and only additon/subtraction of polynomials and the concept of equality on both sides. If you have trouble with this, it isn't algebra's fault. It's your parent's/previous teacher's faults for letting you get out of elementary school with poor fundamentals.
In grade 10, you're introduced to the concept of factoring polynomials, multiplication and division of polynomials.
That's all there is to basic algebra. You don't do anything more than basic addition/subtraction/multiplication/division and other manipulation of algebraic expressions until grade 11 math which isn't required to graduate. Assuming that the USA requires nothing more difficult than this, if you have two extra years to learn how to do algebra and you still can't, you're fucking retarded. Yes algebra is necessary and no it should not be excluded. If you can't learn it, it isn't algebra's fault.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
On a side note: statements like "foil it out" are good examples of how the American math system teaches formulae and algorithms, not mathematics.
The american math system has far worse problems than that. All throughout learning math, we are told things are impossible. Then a year later, we learn how to solve what was previously thought to be impossible. I am curious though, how would you teach somebody to do (9+3)(9+3) without telling them about foil? I only ever learned it because of that, and would like another perspective.
The distributive property is certainly necessary for expanding products of multinomials. FOIL is a decent, but over-emphasized way of teaching students how to distribute, though: it's not obviously generalizable to, say, trinomials (what's "inner" now?), and it makes students rely far too much on a mnemonic, which points to memorization rather than understanding.
Instead, schools could, for example, introduce the distributive property geometrically: a rectangle with dimensions (a+b) and (c+d) can be split into four rectangles with dimensions ac, bc, ad, bd. I think this gives a better intuition than simply memorizing "first, outer, inner, last."
On July 29 2012 17:07 paralleluniverse wrote: The link to your article isn't working.
Schools job is to build children to proper parts of the society. Big part of that is of course preparing you for a job, BUT a part of that is also teaching relevant things to your society. History for example: "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it". Logic and critical thinking should taught in school too. Why? In my opinion one of the biggest problems in modern society is peoples inability to utilize their brains properly. Learning algebra/math helps you in learning how to think better.
As someone who is a math major, I cannot understand what's so hard about algebra. It seems so natural and very logical. You are given a set of rules to follow. If you follow the rules then you will do everything correctly.
i've taken math classes(graduate algebra) where things are not so natural and trivial. So I do have a sense of not understanding something. But this is simple algebra + - division and graphing polynomial, exponential functions. What is so hard about it?!
On July 29 2012 17:10 toopham wrote: As someone who is a math major, I cannot understand what's so hard about algebra. It seems so natural and very logical. You are given a set of rules to follow. If you follow the rules then you will do everything correctly.
i've taken math classes(graduate algebra) where things are not so natural and trivial. So I do have a sense of not understanding something. But this is simple algebra + - division and graphing polynomial, exponential functions. What is so hard about it?!
Using brain is like using your muscles: don't expect world record breaking achievements with zero training.
I had to learn the multiple proper techniques for throwing a frisbee in Physical Education in high school; some people found it very difficult and it is NOT useful in life.
But I don't really care.
Algebra is definitely more applicable than how to throw a "hammer" or "thumber."
On July 29 2012 16:40 UrsusRex wrote: Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
Take your high school subjects and rank them from most useful to least useful to the average student. I can guarantee you that algebra is one of the most useful. You don't need history. Your science classes have even more niche uses than your algebra classes. You don't need literature. What's left of high school education?
You can't even progress further in other subjects without algebra (i.e. physics, programming and such).
It would also make the following years and years of school completely pointless, because you need algebra throughout your whole school life, unless you're planting trees in a tree nursery. Do I need it now at age 30? Fuck no. I haven't had to deal with it seriously since my last test at the university, but other things I have learned through the basics of algebra allowed me to go further in many other areas.
If I'd strip all the knowledge I attained in school away, that I do not need now in my life right now ... hell that would have been quite a lot less years of education, but I would probably have had NO WAY of going to university, no matter the field of study without knowing the basics for anything and starting with something incredibly huge like math from zero is pretty fucked up. There's a reason why mathematics follow you throughout ALL of your school life, every single year. That's not the case with every subject you have in school.
On July 29 2012 17:03 Silidons wrote: society likes to remember each and every aspect of their favorite celeb or sports team. doesn't surprise me much.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
You could only come to the conclusion that (9+3)^2 =9^2+3^2 if you don't know how to expand brackets properly, thats not a problem with order its just wrong.
How did you learn to expand brackets properly? Is that a "natural logic"? No, its something you learned.
everything was thought of at one point, not learned
"Everything" was thought of by brilliant people who've expanded upon what they learned... To excuse the process of learning by saying that everything was thought of at one point, is absolutely ludicrous.
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
On a side note: statements like "foil it out" are good examples of how the American math system teaches formulae and algorithms, not mathematics.
The american math system has far worse problems than that. All throughout learning math, we are told things are impossible. Then a year later, we learn how to solve what was previously thought to be impossible. I am curious though, how would you teach somebody to do (9+3)(9+3) without telling them about foil? I only ever learned it because of that, and would like another perspective.
The distributive property is certainly necessary for expanding products of multinomials. FOIL is a decent, but over-emphasized way of teaching students how to distribute, though: it's not obviously generalizable to, say, trinomials (what's "inner" now?), and it makes students rely far too much on a mnemonic, which points to memorization rather than understanding.
Instead, schools could, for example, introduce the distributive property geometrically: a rectangle with dimensions (a+b) and (c+d) can be split into four rectangles with dimensions ac, bc, ad, bd. I think this gives a better intuition than simply memorizing "first, outer, inner, last."
On July 29 2012 17:07 paralleluniverse wrote: The link to your article isn't working.
Oops, fixed.
True, I had completely forgotten about trinomials (its been ages since I have had to examine math practices, and most of what I know is just in my mind on how to do).
Though I am honestly not sure if students would grasp it much better with the rectangle. I know just as many people that struggled with a lot of geometry... and it doesnt help that geometry is taught after algebra.
I still want to restructure all of our school curriculums because things seem to be taught in a horrible order that makes very little practical sense for learning. Education starts off fine, but it slips away quickly.
Why do we learn algebra separate from geometry, for example? Why cant we incorporate multiple subjects together?
Of course algebra is necessary, who would ever become a scientist in the physics, mathematics, chemisty etc. department if they have never learned algebra? I guess very few people would still try to study one of these subjects as the knowledge/skill gap from school to university would become way too large overcome it. Or Universities would have to begin their lessons with "A function is ..." Who would ever want future generations of engineers to learn that instead of the usual Technical Mechanics or something like that where they need algebra?
On July 29 2012 16:30 paralleluniverse wrote: What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
On a side note: statements like "foil it out" are good examples of how the American math system teaches formulae and algorithms, not mathematics.
The american math system has far worse problems than that. All throughout learning math, we are told things are impossible. Then a year later, we learn how to solve what was previously thought to be impossible. I am curious though, how would you teach somebody to do (9+3)(9+3) without telling them about foil? I only ever learned it because of that, and would like another perspective.
The distributive property is certainly necessary for expanding products of multinomials. FOIL is a decent, but over-emphasized way of teaching students how to distribute, though: it's not obviously generalizable to, say, trinomials (what's "inner" now?), and it makes students rely far too much on a mnemonic, which points to memorization rather than understanding.
Instead, schools could, for example, introduce the distributive property geometrically: a rectangle with dimensions (a+b) and (c+d) can be split into four rectangles with dimensions ac, bc, ad, bd. I think this gives a better intuition than simply memorizing "first, outer, inner, last."
On July 29 2012 17:07 paralleluniverse wrote: The link to your article isn't working.
Oops, fixed.
The distributive property is also in the definition of a field or a vector space. So, in a sense, you can't argue with it in the same way you can argue against using the order of operations.
Basically, the distributive property isn't merely just notation, it's an actual property of numbers and cannot be changed without changing the concept you're talking about.
Yes, even more harping on the way math is taught being the source of the problem.
Something my old math teacher used to say was: Mathematics is the language of science and nature, it's far more universal than English or German or 'Languages'. It should be thought with the same priority then! Even more actually. If you do 2 units of sciences, 2 units of language etc. ... but 1 unit of math, [especially when you can't do anything interesting in the sciences because that relies on Math] --> ??? You should study the subjects fairly.
Most European systems (at least the French and Swiss) value math more, as I believe they should.
Back to my point of how high-school math sucks. ITs really unfortunate, because it turns people off from studying it, and that also directly limits their 'scientist' throughput. Haha find all the kids that want to do business, then tell them their economics classes, sadly, actually need to do something technical like basic optimization equations. And even those aren't that inspiring.
Solution: Teach History of Maths topics at high-school level. Its really great to see the development of mathematical thought over time, because you can watch the progression of human thought quantitatively, and see 'where the stuff comes from' which hopefully gives a better grasp of 'what this stuff ~means~'. Also, with History of Maths courses, you don't need to go as far in terms of technical difficulty. But I believe it makes so much more sense to explain the relation between cartesian and polar coordinates, if you introduce it like the founders of those topics discovered it. That gives it a human story - useful for sciences, because you can see when people went 'wrong' and learn to identify that.
Yes there is the drudgery of (even high-school level) of basic complex number algebra and doing problem sets upon problem set of integrals (hmm, I may be stepping beyond US high-school level, \: ), but you really must have that familiarity and grasp of the skill to be able to do fun stuff! I see that now, its beautiful. Lol that doesn't make my summer reading any easier :E
On July 29 2012 17:18 KuKri wrote: Of course algebra is necessary, who would ever become a scientist in the physics, mathematics, chemisty etc. department if they have never learned algebra? I guess very few people would still try to study one of these subjects as the knowledge/skill gap from school to university would become way too large overcome it. Or Universities would have to begin their lessons with "A function is ..." Who would ever want future generations of engineers to learn that instead of the usual Technical Mechanics or something like that where they need algebra?
No one is saying scrap mathematics. People who are inclined towards physics and mathematics would still be able to do it. But why would a social worker, a radio host or a fitness coach need to know algebra?
And they still need to redefined a function in university anyway, because the high school definition isn't abstract enough. For example, in high school (at least for me), functions were defined as a rule, a domain and a range. In university, the proper definition involves a rule, a domain and a codomain. And the change from a range to a codomain is quite important.
The whole point of high school isn't necessarily to teach you things that you will actively use in life, because you learn things so generically and superficially it can't really be useful. The point of high school is to give you a general culture on a variety of subjects; you can then go deeper into them in college if you are interested, which is when you actually learn what you will use. High school kids are supposed to learn how to reason on different things, not how to solve real life math problems for example. Also it's fucking high school as long as you do your assignements you will be fine. I have been giving private lessons to high school students struggling in english, math and physics, and each and every time it was simply because they just wouldn't study.
I do agree that math is taught like shit in high school though.
On July 29 2012 17:10 toopham wrote: As someone who is a math major, I cannot understand what's so hard about algebra. It seems so natural and very logical. You are given a set of rules to follow. If you follow the rules then you will do everything correctly.
You're a maths major, you take it as a given.
That said, it isn't, but I honestly believe that the problem is more mental than anything else. Given the aversion to maths of most people, and the oft repeated mantra of "maths is complicated, maths is hard", it's not hard to see why kids develop such an aversion to it. Making maths "go away" isn't the solution. Getting teachers to properly teach maths at a young age and removing that "Oh maths is hard, I can't do it, I'm not good with numbers" fear is crucial.
Making basic maths non-compulsory or elective, and especially algebra, is a great way to screw up an entire generation. Kids don't make the best choices when it comes to cake now or cake later, and having parents unconcerned with education don't help matters either.
1. "It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs." I'd say that's debatable. While perseverance helps with jobs, so do many many other factors, such as mathematical skills. Like all skills, the amount that's beneficial or required will vary on a job by job basis.
2. the article spends a truckload of time talking about how people are struggling too much with algebra. First of all, if other countries are doing it right, maybe the problem is with the way it's being taught, not the fact it's being taught.
I had rather serious problems with long division, fractions, multiplication, and other basic math when I was young — does that mean we shouldn't learn any of that either of many people have the same problem? I could only assume that such a problem was very serious and common 100-200 years ago (or earlier or later), but we get past it and progress. After basic math though, I excelled very much across most of the remaining math, especially basic algebra. I think it had a fair bit to do with a different environment. I was playing educational computer games, as well as had less distractions such as chatting/fooling around with classmates (since all my best friends weren't with me). Aside from that I also obviously wasn't drinking soda or junk food all the time, which I think would play a large factor in education.
3. It doesn't even address this issue much, which really shows off how biased and/or shallow the article is, but something that's important to discuss is how much algebra/advanced math should be taught? (and how much shouldn't) sure I could see having cubic and greater polynomial functions, exponential functions, quadratic regression, lots of the trigonometric identities and laws, as well as linear algebra/matrices, sets, or calculus as obviously more optional (although I am quite sure some of that already is), but basic elementary algebra is very important, and not that difficult of a concept.
On July 29 2012 17:21 bITt.mAN wrote: Solution: Teach History of Maths topics at high-school level. Its really great to see the development of mathematical thought over time, because you can watch the progression of human thought quantitatively, and see 'where the stuff comes from' which hopefully gives a better grasp of 'what this stuff ~means~'. Also, with History of Maths courses, you don't need to go as far in terms of technical difficulty. But I believe it makes so much more sense to explain the relation between cartesian and polar coordinates, if you introduce it like the founders of those topics discovered it. That gives it a human story - useful for sciences, because you can see when people went 'wrong' and learn to identify that.
Yes there is the drudgery of (even high-school level) of basic complex number algebra and doing problem sets upon problem set of integrals (hmm, I may be stepping beyond US high-school level, \: ), but you really must have that familiarity and grasp of the skill to be able to do fun stuff! I see that now, its beautiful. Lol that doesn't make my summer reading any easier :E
Sound's like a pretty good idea. I know when chemistry or biology is taught the brief brief history was also done (not-so-much physics) for me, but not math, and I think it would be useful, and certainly more slow and clear for people to learn.
But why would a social worker, a radio host or a fitness coach need to know algebra?
because algebra use is part of life skills — dealing with money, time, ratios, etc. I guess with computers and credit cards people kinda need to know this far less, but it makes for a dangerous dependency (just like if everyone had machines to read for us and people didn't learn how to read; a poor comparison, but still similar)
On July 29 2012 17:18 KuKri wrote: Of course algebra is necessary, who would ever become a scientist in the physics, mathematics, chemisty etc. department if they have never learned algebra? I guess very few people would still try to study one of these subjects as the knowledge/skill gap from school to university would become way too large overcome it. Or Universities would have to begin their lessons with "A function is ..." Who would ever want future generations of engineers to learn that instead of the usual Technical Mechanics or something like that where they need algebra?
No one is saying scrap mathematics. People who are inclined towards physics and mathematics would still be able to do it. But why would a social worker, a radio host or a fitness coach need to know algebra?
And they still need to redefined a function in university anyway, because the high school definition isn't abstract enough. For example, in high school (at least for me), functions were defined as a rule, a domain and a range. In university, the proper definition involves a rule, a domain and a codomain. And the change from a range to a codomain is quite important.
I know plenty of people who were not inclined towards maths and physics in high school in the slightest and would have dropped them given the option and are now in university or a technical college of some sort doing business/science and even engineering.
This is mostly in response to the article, but giving kids choices at high school or at an even lower level to drop maths education is a recipe for disaster.
EDIT: Oh, and being able to give something up because a kid finds it hard sends the entirely wrong kind of message, and will screw up a kid even more. Struggling and learning to put your head down and get through it is just as important.
There are two funny (on-topic) assertions I'm seeing in this thread.
First: "Algebra is so easy, so if you can't pass it, you must be retarded!" The main problem here is that yes, algebra is easy, but no, most people who fail it are not actually retarded. The US can't be that much "dumber" than European/Asian countries, whose students score much higher on tests of things like basic algebra. The problem lies in the way things are taught (and also in the fact that because high-school teachers are paid so little for such a difficult job, they are unlikely to be of high quality.) So it is true that we must at least reform our math education (and probably physics / computer science [which doesn't exist in most high schools] / other sciences as well.)
Second: "Removing algebra from schools is ridiculous!"
Yes, yes it is. But I'm pretty sure that's not what the article is saying. Rather, they propose that algebra no longer be a required subject. I agree that this is undesirable (for reasons which have mostly been covered in this thread), but making algebra not mandatory would hardly block anyone from entering a scientific field if they were interested.
Though if instead, you're arguing that if students were given a choice of whether to take algebra, they wouldn't (thus reducing the number of young people going into STEM-related fields), that might be a reasonable argument.
Anyway, I've touched on how the curriculum and maybe even the teachers of subjects like algebra / geometry / calculus are hurting American students---promoting, even requiring, mostly rote memorization rather than encouraging creativity and curiosity. I believe, however, that the biggest problem this causes is not that of poor student learning, but that the majority of the US really hates math. I think this is a pretty strange cultural phenomenon, considering the number of strong scientists / mathematicians / engineers, etc. that are educated in the US, and I think this hatred is caused by people's bad experiences in their grade-school math classes.
(Finally, an amusing anecdote: I was flying back from a math camp [yes, I'm a nerd, as you should be able to figure out] at age 14. Because I was an "unaccompanied minor," I had to be watched over by the flight attendants. There were a handful of other such unaccompanied minors, aged 7-10 or so.
I got bored and started doing a math problem. The kid next to me asked what I was doing; upon being told, he said "I don't like math. Math is boring."
I asked, "Why is math boring? I think math is pretty fun."
"I don't know, it's just boring."
After some more similar exchanges with the other kids, I was very sad.)
This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
The most common problem an algebra teacher faces is that the students do not have any basic concepts of numbers. For the first 10-20 weeks of the school year they have to go back and teach them concepts like number lines and division. They seem to learn it well and quickly, but then 2 weeks later they go back to the same way they were before all this time was used on them. Not teaching algebra is just like saying reading at a 2nd grade level is enough for an individual of this society.
Hm, I don't understand why it is bad that students drop out of high school. Is american high school designed so that everybody should pass it? Serious question, cause in Germany that is not the case.
On July 29 2012 17:38 JustPassingBy wrote: Hm, I don't understand why it is bad that students drop out of high school. Is american high school designed so that everybody should pass it? Serious question, cause in Germany that is not the case.
Sort of yeah. American high schools are INSANELY easier compared to european ones (i have studied both in Italy and the US during high school).
On July 29 2012 17:34 ]343[ wrote: There are two funny (on-topic) assertions I'm seeing in this thread.
First: "Algebra is so easy, so if you can't pass it, you must be retarded!" The main problem here is that yes, algebra is easy, but no, most people who fail it are not actually retarded. The US can't be that much "dumber" than European/Asian countries, whose students score much higher on tests of things like basic algebra. The problem lies in the way things are taught (and also in the fact that because high-school teachers are paid so little for such a difficult job, they are unlikely to be of high quality.) So it is true that we must at least reform our math education (and probably physics / computer science [which doesn't exist in most high schools] / other sciences as well.)
Second: "Removing algebra from schools is ridiculous!"
Yes, yes it is. But I'm pretty sure that's not what the article is saying. Rather, they propose that algebra no longer be a required subject. I agree that this is undesirable (for reasons which have mostly been covered in this thread), but making algebra not mandatory would hardly block anyone from entering a scientific field if they were interested.
Though if instead, you're arguing that if students were given a choice of whether to take algebra, they wouldn't (thus reducing the number of young people going into STEM-related fields), that might be a reasonable argument.
I couldn't remember the exact term previously, but I remember it now.
People suffer from hyperbolic discounting. You have to actively remind yourself to avoid it. The chances of a student in high school correctly making that decision is ... far fetched in my opinion.
On July 29 2012 17:36 Mallard86 wrote: This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
This extends even into college, where we are supposed to be taking classes for our careers. Do I seriously need to take government, history, english, math, foreign language, and a PE class? I am doing computer science... how are those all relevant? I could save myself thousands of dollars and 2 years if I were not required to take them.
I hope that mathematics departments can also create courses in the history and philosophy of their discipline, as well as its applications in early cultures. Why not mathematics in art and music — even poetry — along with its role in assorted sciences?
Because the math in music at least is really really fucking complicated for a high school student. We can't really teach them that different instruments have a different sound while making the same note because of fourier analysis right?
curiosity and critical thinking is the core values for a successful society and individual. Math if taught properly guides the student to embrace the scientific method, tingles you senses for new problems and discovery. Why will you not give this gift to as many students as possible?
Algebra... math in general, is actually way more helpful than 99% of the subjects learned in school. Ignoring the fact that is necessary for physics and chemistry, its actually one of the few subjects that develops you ability to think. If you believe that algebra is not necessary since " I will never use it in my life mom, i have a friend at NY times and he promised me he will give me a job to write shitty articles and publish them on the internet " than one of the reasons you are this dumb might be the very fact that you did not study math. I admit i don't know how hard 12th grade algebra is in USA, but i would imagine is not much harder than here... i would bet it's easier due to the things i heard from friends/family living abroad. I can say with confidence that the math you do in the schools here is kinda of a "brain check" unless you want to actually follow a university that involves math-related subjects. Indeed, i would go as far as to say that anyone who isn't able to obtain above 5 results should be cleaning the streets not going to college.
If you had to do anything "advanced" in terms of math at school i would argue its bad, some people might just be to dumb to get that... i myself don't think i would be able to resolve and international or even national math olympics subject in a million year, you actually have to be smart and train to do those kinda of things.
The article itself explains why its good that so many people fail math in USA. And quote: " one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason. " Now, lets be stereotypical here for a moment... i am not an American citizen myself but from what i hear South Carolina, Nevada and New Mexico and Tennessee aren't exactly the country finest when it comes to bright minds, you can see judging by the guys they vote and there position on recent events such as the whole LGBT marriage legalization debacle.
Now, if we assume for a second that its actually helpful to a country to have smart people in university, we can see that algebra might just be doing its job at making people that don't like to learn/think drop out of school... since they are not school material anyway. Not everyone can work at a desk... some have to do manual labor. The dummer you are the more fit you are for manual labor, there has to be a differentiation at some point between the 2 type of people... preferably BEFORE both of them have a college degree. Math is one of the main tools to differentiate between the 2 and its certainly helps develop algorithms of thinking at a young age. To remove mandatory algebra from school since its to hard to accept the fact that some kids are dumb and hate learning and the fact that not everyone is Einstein would be a HUGE step in the wrong direction.
On July 29 2012 17:36 Mallard86 wrote: This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
This extends even into college, where we are supposed to be taking classes for our careers. Do I seriously need to take government, history, english, math, foreign language, and a PE class? I am doing computer science... how are those all relevant? I could save myself thousands of dollars and 2 years if I were not required to take them.
The answer to your question is that it is part of the testing procedure. Future employers want to be confident that your degree not only taught you your field, but also took you outside your comfort zone and that you were capable of it. Somebody stated it earlier but the real value of a college degree is not that you are now capable of doing something in a field but that you are capable being taught to do something in a field.
Oh, and as I'm rereading this other article I posted earlier, he makes the following (familiar?) claim:
There is surely no more reliable way to kill enthusiasm and interest in a subject than to make it a mandatory part of the school curriculum.
However, he follows it up differently than the article in the OP does:
Include it as a major component of standardized testing and you virtually guarantee that the education establishment will suck the life out of it. School boards do not understand what math is, neither do educators, textbook authors, publishing companies, and sadly, neither do most of our math teachers.
He argues that math should be taught as an art, much like music or painting, rather than as something "important." Those who actually enjoy math will, indeed, learn more; the rest will at least find it interesting and fun.
On July 29 2012 17:36 Mallard86 wrote: This leads to the natural questions like "Why do I have to take Literature?", "Why do I have to take a foreign language?", "Why do I have to take History?" etc.
This extends even into college, where we are supposed to be taking classes for our careers. Do I seriously need to take government, history, english, math, foreign language, and a PE class? I am doing computer science... how are those all relevant? I could save myself thousands of dollars and 2 years if I were not required to take them.
The answer to your question is that it is part of the testing procedure. Future employers want to be confident that your degree not only taught you your field, but also took you outside your comfort zone and that you were capable of it. Somebody stated it earlier but the real value of a college degree is not that you are now capable of doing something in a field but that you are capable being taught to do something in a field.
I understand that its something that is done to show dedication, just that the concept of "why do i have to take x" doesnt only apply to high school, but college as wel.
I don't see why algebra needs to be removed as a mandatory subject. High school sets you up for college. It's not where you're learning your career. If you aren't able to buckle down and learn a subject you find difficult and uninteresting you probably wouldn't have made it through college either. I doubt Algebra is the real cause of so many drop-outs.
Include it as a major component of standardized testing and you virtually guarantee that the education establishment will suck the life out of it. School boards do not understand what math is, neither do educators, textbook authors, publishing companies, and sadly, neither do most of our math teachers.
He argues that math should be taught as an art, much like music or painting, rather than as something "important." Those who actually enjoy math will, indeed, learn more; the rest will at least find it interesting and fun.
I've read that article before, and I agree with most of it. Teaching math as a problem solving course, which is how it's mostly taught at university level should definitely increase interest from those who would otherwise hate the subject,
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
That's high school math, and it's the reason why it's dislike so much. You are given a few formulas, you plug shit in mindlessly and hope the number you get at the end is correct and that you didn't fuck up.
Actual math is more along the lines of "alright, i have this set of rules and hypothesis, and objects that i am defining in a very clear way. Let's see what conclusion i can come up with".
On July 29 2012 17:18 KuKri wrote: Of course algebra is necessary, who would ever become a scientist in the physics, mathematics, chemisty etc. department if they have never learned algebra? I guess very few people would still try to study one of these subjects as the knowledge/skill gap from school to university would become way too large overcome it. Or Universities would have to begin their lessons with "A function is ..." Who would ever want future generations of engineers to learn that instead of the usual Technical Mechanics or something like that where they need algebra?
No one is saying scrap mathematics. People who are inclined towards physics and mathematics would still be able to do it. But why would a social worker, a radio host or a fitness coach need to know algebra?
And they still need to redefined a function in university anyway, because the high school definition isn't abstract enough. For example, in high school (at least for me), functions were defined as a rule, a domain and a range. In university, the proper definition involves a rule, a domain and a codomain. And the change from a range to a codomain is quite important.
Why does an engineer, scientist, or mathematician need to know about U.S. history, art, literature, or health? Having a balanced education helps one understand the world as we know it and why things are done certain ways.
I think math , native language and English are by far the most important subjects you can have in high school. How is biology and geography important for everyone in every profession?
First of all, school should be deliberately limited to preparing children and teenagers for their professional life. Any side issues should be the responsibility of the parents and the other people around them. Children need a broad development. But if school takes on this responsibility, they can't do their main job.
I think math is super essential for everyone that's going to work with their mind rather than their hands. Anyone getting an advanced education that has something to do with technology or science or statistical models, they need math. The brain is a muscle and math is one of the ways to train that muscle. Algrebra is in fact a nusciance in math. The hardest stuff in calculus is often the algrebra. You can make algebra as easy or as difficult as you want. You can make a messy problem that takes an hour or longer to solve because it needs several pages of algebra.
In my country children that are low level in language have to do low level math. Children that are low in math have to do low level language. It's a very stupid system, imo. Education has to have inspirational teachers that are very confident in what they do. They need to have small classes with individual attention for the students. They need to be able to provide the exact type of education that is appropiate for that student. Everyone has genetic limits. So the actual limit should be the genetic one, not one created by poor circumstances. I am sure every kid can pass US high school algebra.
Problem with math is that you need to build it up from the ground. If you mess up at the base of the pyramid, you are fucked trying to build the top and you fail. There's no point keeping a student in a class he or she is not gonna pass because the foundation is messed up. If you struggle with basic algebra you are wasting your time in a calc or trig class. And these students just think math is some strange magical thing they just can't get. Of course they can't.
Also, if you decide to stay in education longer and decide you want to be more ambilitious in your twenties than in your teens, lack of math will be the limiting factor.
When I was in high school people other students always used to say that we were only going to use math when we were going to be math teachers. And yes, for most of these students that was probably true. We as students had no idea how much math is used by 'smart people' in companies all around the world. The issue is being able to get such a job. Want to buy a car or bridge? Want to develop certain technology? Want to understand markets or the economy? Want to do research on food crops? Math is your no.1 toolkit. I understand aversion to math is even bigger in the US. Students need to learn how math is used. I blame society as a whole. Kids aren't lazy or stupid. They are made to be so.
I also think tv and computer games are a huge problem. Imagine Leibnitz or Newton as a kid. What did they do with their spare time? People in the past got fucking bored. You basically had 2 ways to entertain yourself. Books or other people.
I know for sure I would be a hell smarter today without spending all the time using computers and TV. Of course it makes a lot of stuff more convenient as well. But it does create lazier brains.
But adults blaming kids when education fails is just stupid. The kids should blame the adults. It's their system. They created/voted for it.
On July 29 2012 17:41 sixfour wrote: it's funny that i only didn't immediately see real life applications for maths until i got to degree level
Well, how are you supposed to see real life applications before you have experienced real life?
That's what teachers are for. Unfortunatelly most (at the lower levels) are just satisfied with telling kids to memories answers rather than to actually make any effort to teach kids what the point is. It wasn't until university level I actually had a teacher that was passionate about math, and it makes a huge difference.
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
You might disagree, however you are wrong regarding the topic. The NYT article doesn't discuss algebra in the same way you consider it. I've taken 2 years worth of university math now, and I've finally begun to understand some of the more advanced stuff I've been taking for granted in my physics-courses. (Big wtf-moment when I saw that generalized angular momentum "just appears" when you solve spherical harmonics). And I would never suggest to anyone who isn't planning to work in a similair field to mine to take the amount of math I've taken. However, what the article talks about is extremely fundamental and basic algebra, which is taught when you are 13-18 years old. In this period the pre-frontal cortex is developing, and at this time forcing the child/young adult to think logically / rationally is greatly beneficial to the development of the brain. That is one of the main reasons math isn't elective, and also the fact that we use the math we learn at that age all the time, just that we don't even consider the fact that we are doing it.
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world.
Ah, but there are a number of distinctions to be made here: you are referring to "useful mathematics," which is indeed about accurately predicting what happens in the real world. There is also "research mathematics," which is more exploration than computation [hopefully]. (Here I'm referring to a broader division than the one between 'applied' and 'pure' research mathematics.)
But I think we should be talking about mathematics education here. Yes, it is important to get the right answer (and most people who use math in their job or in their daily life are, indeed, concerned with obtaining the correct answer), but by teaching people to get the right answer through memorization is only going to discourage interest in the subject, and prevent students from generalizing to find things on their own.
Those who will be using a certain piece of mathematics (algebra beyond 1-variable linear equations, trig, calculus, etc.) in their jobs will indeed have to be able to compute things accurately. But for those who won't (a huge majority of people for trig and calculus, and a smaller majority for algebra), wouldn't it be better to show them how the subject is interesting and cool and fun? And have them develop logical reasoning and problem solving skills along the way?
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
You might disagree, however you are wrong regarding the topic. The NYT article doesn't discuss algebra in the same way you consider it. I've taken 2 years worth of university math now, and I've finally begun to understand some of the more advanced stuff I've been taking for granted in my physics-courses. (Big wtf-moment when I saw that generalized angular momentum "just appears" when you solve spherical harmonics). And I would never suggest to anyone who isn't planning to work in a similair field to mine to take the amount of math I've taken. However, what the article talks about is extremely fundamental and basic algebra, which is taught when you are 13-18 years old. In this period the pre-frontal cortex is developing, and at this time forcing the child/young adult to think logically / rationally is greatly beneficial to the development of the brain. That is one of the main reasons math isn't elective, and also the fact that we use the math we learn at that age all the time, just that we don't even consider the fact that we are doing it.
Actually, the article is talking about "polynomial functions [and] parametric equations" and trigonometry, which is more advanced than just basic algebra.
I agree that very basic algebra like subtracting x from both sides should be taught. It has useful applications in, say, calculating how much money you've spent.
With all seriousness, trigonometry is one of the most useless things you'll ever learn, unless you go on to do math related jobs.
This article is a joke. The failure of American students to pass algebra courses reflects poorly on themselves and the quality of the American public education system, not on algebra itself.
What is the content of those high school algebra course ? For instance, as a maths student in France, I think we teach too much maths to some people in middle/high school. The situation might be different in the US.
Are individuals really being hampered by one subject to the point where they can't succeed in others? I wish we could see the statistics of kids dropping out if they didn't have to take math/algebra. Is algebra the "major academic reason" for dropping out or is that just inherently the subject that takes the biggest hit from weaknesses in the cultural attitude or education system since it depends primarily on strictly followed rules and foundations to succeed.
A sad fact about America's education system: In 2008 the U.S. was the only developed nation where a higher percent of 55- to 64-year-olds than 25- to 34-year-olds had graduated from high school. Going the wrong way and i don't think it's because algebra is getting in the way...
My knee-jerk reaction was "that's crazy! algebra is extremely useful!", but then I considered that maybe algebra is truly holding a lot of people back from graduating and whatnot.
But upon third thought, it might be more a problem with our education system and not algebra as a subject. I personally think that a lot of teachers do an absolutely terrible job of conveying the course material to students oftentimes, and I think axing algebra (which has actually come up surprising often) is not the answer to our rather horrible education system.
Of course it's necessary. I say bring more math into the school, it helps with logic, which is used by EVERYBODY. Not everybody uses math the way we actually learn it ("x/2=4 solve for x", etc) but everybody benefits from it.
Should it be removed / dumbed down? NO. Down alter school to suit idiots, alter school to motivate them to work harder.
On July 29 2012 18:02 alderamin wrote: I think math , native language and English are by far the most important subjects you can have in high school. How is biology and geography important for everyone in every profession?
First of all, school should be deliberately limited to preparing children and teenagers for their professional life. Any side issues should be the responsibility of the parents and the other people around them. Children need a broad development. But if school takes on this responsibility, they can't do their main job.
I think math is super essential for everyone that's going to work with their mind rather than their hands. Anyone getting an advanced education that has something to do with technology or science or statistical models, they need math. The brain is a muscle and math is one of the ways to train that muscle. Algrebra is in fact a nusciance in math. The hardest stuff in calculus is often the algrebra. You can make algebra as easy or as difficult as you want. You can make a messy problem that takes an hour or longer to solve because it needs several pages of algebra.
In my country children that are low level in language have to do low level math. Children that are low in math have to do low level language. It's a very stupid system, imo. Education has to have inspirational teachers that are very confident in what they do. They need to have small classes with individual attention for the students. They need to be able to provide the exact type of education that is appropiate for that student. Everyone has genetic limits. So the actual limit should be the genetic one, not one created by poor circumstances. I am sure every kid can pass US high school algebra.
Problem with math is that you need to build it up from the ground. If you mess up at the base of the pyramid, you are fucked trying to build the top and you fail. There's no point keeping a student in a class he or she is not gonna pass because the foundation is messed up. If you struggle with basic algebra you are wasting your time in a calc or trig class. And these students just think math is some strange magical thing they just can't get. Of course they can't.
Also, if you decide to stay in education longer and decide you want to be more ambilitious in your twenties than in your teens, lack of math will be the limiting factor.
When I was in high school people other students always used to say that we were only going to use math when we were going to be math teachers. And yes, for most of these students that was probably true. We as students had no idea how much math is used by 'smart people' in companies all around the world. The issue is being able to get such a job. Want to buy a car or bridge? Want to develop certain technology? Want to understand markets or the economy? Want to do research on food crops? Math is your no.1 toolkit. I understand aversion to math is even bigger in the US. Students need to learn how math is used. I blame society as a whole. Kids aren't lazy or stupid. They are made to be so.
I also think tv and computer games are a huge problem. Imagine Leibnitz or Newton as a kid. What did they do with their spare time? People in the past got fucking bored. You basically had 2 ways to entertain yourself. Books or other people.
I know for sure I would be a hell smarter today without spending all the time using computers and TV. Of course it makes a lot of stuff more convenient as well. But it does create lazier brains.
But adults blaming kids when education fails is just stupid. The kids should blame the adults. It's their system. They created/voted for it.
Really? Can you show me any well-done study that proves this? I haven't seen a single one.
It's not that it creates lazier brains, it creates lazier people. Newton, Neumann and Leibnitz and so on just worked hard. It wasn't the time they didn't spend on watching TV that kept their brains fresh, it was the time they WERE spending on actually studying their respective subjects.
On July 29 2012 15:04 zezamer wrote: Isn't the whole purpose of math to teach rational thinking,problem solving etc ?
I disagree with this. Mathematics requires rational thinking, but that is not its purpose. The purpose of mathematics is to find the correct answer. Getting the correct answer means you can accurately predict what will happen in the real world. Predicting what happens in the real world means that the design of a machine or system can be done in advance of building and testing it. Without mathematics, all technical design would be trial and error, and would take orders of magnitude more time to accomplish. Advancements in physics would halt completely.
As to the original question, algebra is definitely required. To stop teaching algebra to kids is to doom them to uncompetitiveness in an increasingly technical economy.
You might disagree, however you are wrong regarding the topic. The NYT article doesn't discuss algebra in the same way you consider it. I've taken 2 years worth of university math now, and I've finally begun to understand some of the more advanced stuff I've been taking for granted in my physics-courses. (Big wtf-moment when I saw that generalized angular momentum "just appears" when you solve spherical harmonics). And I would never suggest to anyone who isn't planning to work in a similair field to mine to take the amount of math I've taken. However, what the article talks about is extremely fundamental and basic algebra, which is taught when you are 13-18 years old. In this period the pre-frontal cortex is developing, and at this time forcing the child/young adult to think logically / rationally is greatly beneficial to the development of the brain. That is one of the main reasons math isn't elective, and also the fact that we use the math we learn at that age all the time, just that we don't even consider the fact that we are doing it.
Actually, the article is talking about "polynomial functions [and] parametric equations" and trigonometry, which is more advanced than just basic algebra.
I agree that very basic algebra like subtracting x from both sides should be taught. It has useful applications in, say, calculating how much money you've spent.
With all seriousness, trigonometry is one of the most useless things you'll ever learn, unless you go on to do math related jobs.
Ever renovated an apartment? Built anything by yourself? etc. Trigonometry is not useless.
I'm a biochem major, though could easily have gone into any science once I was admitted in university. I was never required to do a mathematics course or score high on it. There are entrance exams with various subjects, I only had to pass the biology one. And poor math marks from high school were covered by better marks from other stuff.
Don't see any reason why colleges in the US couldn't do this, unless they were using math as a convenient method to filter their applicants. The article is correct in that you don't need higher mathematics for most things.
On July 29 2012 18:35 Tanukki wrote: I'm a biochem major, though could easily have gone into any science once I was admitted in university. I was never required to do a mathematics course or score high on it. There are entrance exams with various subjects, I only had to pass the biology one. And poor math marks from high school were covered by better marks from other stuff.
Don't see any reason why the US couldn't do this, unless they were using math as a convenient method to filter their applicants. The article is correct in that you don't need higher mathematics for most things.
Not sure if this is entirely applicable to your post, but in the US at least, people still generally need to be pretty good at mathematics in order to be accepted by a good university. Almost all of the "smart asians" applying to the Ivy League and related research institutions should have high marks across the board and whatnot in order to be admitted for any major.
To be honest, though, algebra really is not very high-level math in the grand scheme of things. A lot of middle schools offer it to kids and algebra and trigonometry at least are very useful...kids should have to understand those before graduating.
Is the gender of the drop outs mentioned at any point? High drop out rates could simply be alot of girls and an example of how gender expectations cause girls to fail hard in algebra through no fault of there own.
"Let no one ignorant of geometry enter". Mathematics is essential for the human brain to be considered "educated". It's not even about how usefull the math itself is, but it's the fact that it teaches you how to think. It trains your brain for problem-solving and logical ideea flow. Any person thinking any basic branch of mathematics be excluded from any nation's ed system is either retarded or has an elitist agenda close to "we need less people to know math. we need less people who know how to think" .
Yea it's true that it's necessary to understand to some point. Even I had to calculate things related to buffering solutions, enzyme kinetics, thermodynamics, etc. and I appreciate having at least some math education as a base. But surely that's not the kind of mathematics that's dropping all these students?
I've done some maths, until you have to differentiate imaginary functions, at this point I understood what it may look like to people who have a hard time doing math but it also showed me that I knew almost nothing about mathematics. It's very basic until the end of highschool. Many people seems to believe school is to learn a job but it's not, it's about having civilised citizen & maths are as important to our civilization than history. Besides school system just evaluate if you have the capacity to sit behind a desk the whole day when you're a child or a young man. We all know some really smart people who are just not made to sit behind a desk & therefore sucked at school. Then they don't deserve to graduate because it's all about sitting behind this desk. Life is long after this, they have no choice but to pick the hard way (no good diploma) but it does not mean they won't succeed in an other way.
Really? Can you show me any well-done study that proves this? I haven't seen a single one.
It's not that it creates lazier brains, it creates lazier people. Newton, Neumann and Leibnitz and so on just worked hard. It wasn't the time they didn't spend on watching TV that kept their brains fresh, it was the time they WERE spending on actually studying their respective subjects.
Some people flunk math, other's flunk English and have poor reading comprehension, as attested to by this post. So indeed both are important.
On July 29 2012 18:45 TheMooseHeed wrote: Is the gender of the drop outs mentioned at any point? High drop out rates could simply be alot of girls and an example of how gender expectations cause girls to fail hard in algebra through no fault of there own.
In low performing school in the US, females outperform males by a good portion.
All I can say is highschool was a huge waste of time when it came to education. The more time passes, the more I regret actually trying in school, and wish I spent more time learning what it is I'm doing now.
What's worse is that even if the subject matter has no relevance you are "disciplined" by going to detention, and having bad grades just ruins your self esteem.
The smart kids are the ones who don't do the homework and instead do their own learning on what is really important and what makes them money later in life. I can say pretty much highschool results had almost nothing to do with success later in life, the only correlation is that kids who do well end up getting to do better uni courses.
You need to know your basic arithmetic, very basic algebra and that's it. You don't need to know anything beyond basic algebra its just wasted time that could be better spent on learning about business, communication or whatever particular field that's necessary for helping you in your career.
Don't have much to say about the main point of the article, since at least for basic algebra I think it's self-evident to most people here that it's a load of bull. One thing I did find funny though was this gem:
making it as accessible and welcoming as sculpture or ballet
When clearly it's quite a small minority of the public that appreciates ballet or sculpture. Most people would be as bored by either of those as they would by math. He's a liberal arts guy though, so they sound great to him. For me then, the take-away message here is that we can't help but assume that everyone is, in at least some regards, like us, and if they aren't then they should be.
I really polls are very helpful in these sorts of posts...
From what I have read so far many people seem to agree that algebra should continue to be taught and continue to be a requirement for colleges/universities, and I agree.
Even though it is a fundamental part of our lives, it is safe to assume that at least 50% or higher would not use the techniques used in algebra in their work again...but that is not the point. It gives universities a glimpse of what you are capable of understanding and learning, and for that reason i think it should continue to be taught
On July 29 2012 18:28 sirkyan wrote: Of course it's necessary. I say bring more math into the school, it helps with logic, which is used by EVERYBODY. Not everybody uses math the way we actually learn it ("x/2=4 solve for x", etc) but everybody benefits from it.
Should it be removed / dumbed down? NO. Down alter school to suit idiots, alter school to motivate them to work harder.
how does everyone benefit from it? how does it help with logic? Honestly most requirements for high school math are so trivial that it hardly necessitates deeper thought processes. The interesting stuff comes in college but if your field of interest does not involve any sort of math, you're not going to bother pursuing it and the stuff you've already learned becomes lost and you won't miss it because it probably wasn't important in the first place. People argue math builds foundations in logic. Maybe. There are plenty of exercises that develop your problem solving without touching on mathematics. Point is, there's a fundamental distinction between thinking something is genuinely necessary and only necessary because you're good at it.
What's interesting to me is that most of my friend who came from math told me that US student suck at "pure" math anyway, even at the highest level, because they mostly study applicated science. I've never come to understand the "critical thinking" part, or how math can help you being a better citizen. That's crap for me.
It's hard so we shouldn't do it. That is the most boggling logic, algebra and pure maths teaches abstract thought. Without a pure maths background I would find writing complex algorithms for my applications a lot more difficult. Total nonsense that it isn't required in real life.
The guy who is the source of this drivel is a Professor in political science, the world would be better off without that subject. 99% less politicians and more mathematicians would make the world a better place?
wow I can't believe that anyone is questioning the necessarity of algebra. Do we really need history classes then? Why should I know when the industrial revolution began?
Improve the education, even stupid people will learn.
And another thought: to think that places such as India, China and our close friends South Korea are slaving away to reach the pinnacle of education, and compete and ridiculously high pressure situations, are doing this right now. Meanwhile in the US, we are considering the value of algebra? we have to put everything into perspective here
On July 29 2012 18:28 sirkyan wrote: Of course it's necessary. I say bring more math into the school, it helps with logic, which is used by EVERYBODY. Not everybody uses math the way we actually learn it ("x/2=4 solve for x", etc) but everybody benefits from it.
Should it be removed / dumbed down? NO. Down alter school to suit idiots, alter school to motivate them to work harder.
how does everyone benefit from it? how does it help with logic? Honestly most requirements for high school math are so trivial that it hardly necessitates deeper thought processes. The interesting stuff comes in college but if your field of interest does not involve any sort of math, you're not going to bother pursuing it and the stuff you've already learned becomes lost and you won't miss it because it probably wasn't important in the first place. People argue math builds foundations in logic. Maybe. There are plenty of exercises that develop your problem solving without touching on mathematics. Point is, there's a fundamental distinction between thinking something is genuinely necessary and only necessary because you're good at it.
Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required. Should we school our kids in philosophy instead of math? (They should be schooled in both, obviously. However philosophy is far less useful)
On July 29 2012 15:16 Integra wrote: Congrats to the author to finally discover that math, like any other subject, have areas which it cannot be applied too and thus has no real value for. What brilliance!
Too deep for the rest of us to realize huh?
I honestly think that we should make people more well-rounded, especially in high school. My program back in high school was IB which meant that I took a bit of everything. Since algebra's a large component of math which is a large component of science, I think that we should all learn some of everything, even if we don't complete it. I mean I'm going into math for university and will not continue to take any other science in the foreseeable future.
On July 29 2012 18:58 firehand101 wrote: I really polls are very helpful in these sorts of posts...
From what I have read so far many people seem to agree that algebra should continue to be taught and continue to be a requirement for colleges/universities, and I agree.
Even though it is a fundamental part of our lives, it is safe to assume that at least 50% or higher would not use the techniques used in algebra in their work again...but that is not the point. It gives universities a glimpse of what you are capable of understanding and learning, and for that reason i think it should continue to be taught
Really? I'm not the best at maths and I would have been pissed if I failed to get into a good university based solely on that fact. As it was I was not accepted at several because of my GCSE (exams at age 16) grades in unrelated subjects as opposed to my A-levels (exams at 18), which seemed annoying. So my cooking grades weren't that high, does that make me a poor historian?
I studied hard and earned a good History degree from a good university, but my one semester of Psych taught me that I am just not that good at maths and the sciences. I went to Uni to study things I enjoyed. Why should I be forced to study things I don't, things that will certainly not feature in my future? And why the hell should I be judged on the basis of something that is completely not applicable to me? This all harkens back to the very old methods of judging intelligence and academic ability, namely testing people in subjects that aren't applicable to the modern day world but everyone used to have to know it, so they should damn well still study it. I wonder if any of the people in this thread who are arguing that algebra be a part of entrance exams for Uni would agree that music, Latin, Greek, the Classics and Theology should also be used as criteria?
I understand that the OP is saying that algebra is used in certain professions, and necessary to understand certain things. So is a complete understanding of the endocrine system in medicine, or the workings of an internal combustion engine in mechanics. People who want to enter these professions study these things. Algebra should be the same - if it's necessary for your chosen career, study it.
On July 29 2012 19:10 Groog wrote: Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required.
point me to credible studies where learning elementary algebra has lead to measurable increases in a person's logic and reasoning abilities that helped contribute to their success later on in their life regardless of career path. also we're talking about algebra. do not generalize this into mathematics in general.
Should we school our kids in philosophy instead of math? (They should be schooled in both, obviously. However philosophy is far less useful)
Philosophy is far less useful because your field of study doesn't require philosophy hence other people will clearly find it less useful?
Seriously, we are talking about algebra: the most basic thing in math and probably the most useful in daily life. We are not talking about Calculus here, only about something really basic and easy to learn. I mean, math is probably the hardest obligatory class in high school and it's still really easy to pass, so if you can't even pass that, maybe you don't deserve a diploma in the first place.
The same argument can be made about any subject in school. So what should we teach our children?
Anyway, imo algebra should be one of the primary subjects taught in school. Algebra is about problem solving, in other words thinking for yourself as opposed to many other subjects that just require recall. As an engineer, I am offended by this article. High school is about so much more then learning a specific subject. Its about educating yourself on what it takes to for all different types of fields so you can figure out what you will be best at and have an general understanding about what other people do. I could on for days about how dumb this article is but I'm done.
That is just plain stupid imo. "Let's not teach algebra to make everyone pass!" how about, enhance the algebra teaching to make everyone pass, learning algebra and solving those problems will develop their brain.
On July 29 2012 19:27 JoeSchmoe wrote: Philosophy is far less useful because your field of study doesn't require philosophy hence other people will clearly find it less useful?
Philosophy is the very definition of education for education's sake.
If maths is not applicable, how would making it MORE pure and deconstructing it further be useful?
and in what world am i gonig to use litterature, history, geography when i work? i fucking know how to spell and write, i know my birthdate and who is the president, and i can find my house ezpz with my GPS. with this kind of reasoning we're not going to go very far. whoever wrote this article is an idiot.
You need algebra if you want to study mathematics, physics, chemistry or biology. You also need it for any engineering or scientific discipline and computer programming. It is also useful in any financial career.
Basically anything that makes you money, really. Learn it you lazy bastards.
wow, this article made me facepalm so many times.. i couldn't help but feeling an agenda behind it.. well i guess, after evolution, it's math's (okay algebra's) turn now.. what's next? physics?
As a high school student this makes me incredibly sad :/ math is probably one of my favourite subjects, and algebra is honestly very easy. For people to start to argue that algebra is not used by most people, so we should not learn it is completely stupid. I suppose then all our education system should teach us is basic grammar and math, since most of us wont be using history daily, algebra daily, or the works of shakespear daily. No need for science either, most people dont need that daily.
Personally I excelled in algebra (best in class) but failed miserably in trigonometry (one of the worst in class). Algebra was like puzzles to me so I enjoyed it lol. And I use the past tense because it is utterly useless in the vast majority of fields.
On July 29 2012 19:10 Groog wrote: Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required.
point me to credible studies where learning elementary algebra has lead to measurable increases in a person's logic and reasoning abilities that helped contribute to their success later on in their life regardless of career path. also we're talking about algebra. do not generalize this into mathematics in general.
I'm not going to spend my free time looking for an article that might or might not exist. It is common knowledge and if you had any basic knowledge of neurology you would know that continuously stimulating a certain part of the brain leads to an increase of neural pathways in that area of the brain (while it's still in developement, ofc. i.e. <21years).
So, once you've learned basic calculus, you have to move over to algebra to continue this stimuli, because learning advanced calculus is really pointless unless it's part of your future career.
On July 29 2012 19:40 Toxi78 wrote: and in what world am i gonig to use litterature, history, geography when i work? i fucking know how to spell and write, i know my birthdate and who is the president, and i can find my house ezpz with my GPS. with this kind of reasoning we're not going to go very far. whoever wrote this article is an idiot.
the redundancy of algebra is just an opinion of the author, it could be any subject yet people place so emphasis on this fact. it's hard to argue against the bias of the considerable majority of TLers here that come from a scientific/mathematic background but the more important issue lies with the linearity of our education system. There should be an option that allows you to focus on fields pertaining to your interest at a much younger age. of course there will be students who are unsure about their future in which they are encouraged to dip their hands in various fields much like what we have today. honestly, there's a ton of shit from high school that either I've completely forgotten or never given a second thought to and yet our people will insist that it has helped subconsciously without us realizing. has it? maybe. do i think so? no, i think my time would've been better invested in developing my interests but that's just me.
It amazes me how many people make sweeping comments like, "oh high school algebra is ez only stupid people fail it." Just because it was easy to YOU doesn't mean it's easy to everyone, and just because someone fails high school or any other algebra courses doesn't mean they are 'stupid'. There is no correlation whatsoever between being able to do whatever math exercises and a person's general intelligence; and the biggest point of this article (one that I can't help but agree with), is that tons of people who could potentially become great artists, sociologists, doctors, or what have you, were denied that opportunity by the fact that they are required to excel at maths to be able to study a discipline which is completely unrelated to mathematics yet still has high math scores as a requirement.
On July 29 2012 19:36 PatouPower wrote: Seriously, we are talking about algebra: the most basic thing in math and probably the most useful in daily life. We are not talking about Calculus here, only about something really basic and easy to learn. I mean, math is probably the hardest obligatory class in high school and it's still really easy to pass, so if you can't even pass that, maybe you don't deserve a diploma in the first place.
it puzzles me that when we're talking about education, how the majority in this thread seem to neglect the fact that not everyone are necessarily very receptive in relation to mathematics, and by that assume the subject is more important than other subjects, simply by defining it through its level of difficulty.
in highschool i failed math. now i'm in college and quite honestly, i still don't get it. though i still get b+/- in every other subject (chinese, cultural understanding, managerial economics, marketing communication, innovation, psychology, philosophy, business law, social studies and contemporary history, just to name a few) now, if u ask me, i'm pretty fucking ok with failing math considering how well i do in every other subject, lol
now, u might ask urself "how come ur so fucking bad at math, tom cruise", well, truth is i don't give two flying fucks about it, because i find it boring and uninteresting. that of course is a stance that i've taken after i failed, so atleast i've tried, and quite honestly, i wish i had spent half as many hours on doing something else than attempting to learn mathematics, cuz holy shit that was a waste of time (considering i never learned anything) -- not because it's "useless" but i suppose it's because it wouldn't be "cost effecient" (lolz) compared to what i want to become when i grow up, and how much fun i have with the other subjects. ty
In my opinion, if someone doesn't possess the intelligence or willpower to at least pass an introductory mathematics course, then that someone probably won't get very much out of education at all, no matter how good it is.
You don't have to like it. You don't have to excel or be proficient at it. You just have to pass.
On July 29 2012 19:10 Groog wrote: Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required.
point me to credible studies where learning elementary algebra has lead to measurable increases in a person's logic and reasoning abilities that helped contribute to their success later on in their life regardless of career path. also we're talking about algebra. do not generalize this into mathematics in general.
I'm not going to spend my free time looking for an article that might or might not exist. It is common knowledge and if you had any basic knowledge of neurology you would know that continuously stimulating a certain part of the brain leads to an increase of neural pathways in that area of the brain (while it's still in developement, ofc. i.e. <21years).
Not sure if a person who can't distinguish between neurology and neuropsychology/neurophysiology should be educating anyone on what is common knowledge.
It was certainly useless for me, as someone who got into an design (art) major. I failed college algebra 3 times before finally passing it with a C. I forget everything I was taught in those attempts because I hated every minute of it. I don't think it should be required for everyone -- it should be something that is optional for most people and only required for math/sci majors.
If we turn this around and say, "Do people need to learn how to write?" There are a lot of jobs that don't require writing. Hell some don't even require reading. Instead of people spending time learning how to read or write they could be spending it learning how to cook amazing food or drawing amazing art or painting or becoming professional athletes. Before you say, "you need to be able to write to make a menu..." You can pay other people to do that... Same as you can pay other people to do your taxes.
Algebra applies to everyday situations, 1+1=2 is basic algebra. x-1=1 I don't want to have to be in a situation where the cashier at a grocery store hands me incorrect cash and says something like, "oh... the machine doesn't say how much i should give you anymore... Do you have a calculator?" Or having someone try and figure out how to split 30 dollars among 12 people.
Why do we force art on kids? Why do we force keyboard classes. Why do we force gym on people? Why do most countries teach kids about safe sex, condoms, birth control, how babies are made. Those don't apply to everyone. I'm sure kids will learn about that stuff if they're really interested in it. (Some people want to grow up to be priests and won't have sex.)
On July 29 2012 20:17 b3n3tt3 wrote: Lol they're americans, of course algebra is hard
why so bad-mannered?
Maybe it's my bias in thinking that algebra isn't very difficult, but I'm not even particularly "good at math" in general. Mathematics encompasses a variety of fields of which algebra is only one, but overall I'm not particularly good at it and to be fair, rudimentary algebra is definitely not a very advanced field.
It can be very useful for very simple tasks and deciding to removing it from the curriculum would not only leave students with a lack of mathematical training, it could leave them with a lack of life skills...and very simple ones at that. It definitely says more about the system than about the students or the material, I feel.
You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
I geuss I largely agree with the general points of the article, but algebra is so elementary it should be taught at least at basic level to almost everyone. Not everyone needs to be proficient at it, but atleast a basic understanding is important. You can offer various difficulty levels to people, and they can choose based on their talents and what they want to do in university, everyone should atleast have SOME math education though.
Some subjects are hard. Getting rid of hard subjects in school is going to screw over kids once they get into the real world and find out that they aren't going to be handed everything on a silver platter anymore.
Expecting universities to teach everything is kinda dumb, imo. University is for advanced education, not basic algebra.
Well since they lowered the bar so much for kids in school in the past decades, we can surely expect algebra going out of fashion ). Idiocracy is coming true sooner than expected...hmm..
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
On July 29 2012 20:29 bOneSeven wrote: Well since they lowered the bar so much for kids in school in the past decades, we can surely expect algebra going out of fashion ). Idiocracy is coming true sooner than expected...hmm..
"The ancient Oracle said that I was the wisest of all the Greeks. It is because I alone, of all the Greeks, know that I know nothing"
On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote: I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra.
I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins of particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote: I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra.
I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
I already asked the question in this thread : as French, it is not clear what you guys call elementary algebra :/
On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote: I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra.
I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
I already asked the question in this thread : as French, it is not clear what you guys call elementary algebra :/
Symbolic manipulation, factoring and solving quadratics. solving systems of linear equations. playing with index laws and log laws, etc. Maybe also some trigonometry too, such as find angles or sides of triangles, stuffing around with rules for sin, cos, tan, etc.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course?
Why is it more important to people that everyonepass high school rather than important to people that everyoneget educated?
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course?
Because education is very, very necessary to illustrate. Whether it be self-taught or through school, every artist/designer/whateveryouwanttocallthem is educated on the past 600 years of advancements in graphical imagery -- otherwise you can't produce anything interesting because you won't know how to (since art is based on observational science, really). I think basic education is fine -- I don't feel advanced algebra (in other words -- college level or beyond) is necessary to everyone. I was fine passing algebra in high school, but I felt it was a huge waste of time and really unnecessary in college. I feel that past basic high school level algebra, math should not be required to receive higher level education in non-math/sci related fields.
I think I'm getting confused on what everyone means by 'algebra.' There are several different basic algebras with the same name taught in middleschool, highschool, and college -- the one I'm referring to is college algebra. I don't think it's necessary for everyone.
Some one should show the number of people who can't make it as a cashier at mcdonalds, because they can't do the algebra. The number is actually really high.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second thought, no mathematician will ever be hired for their ability to perform symbolic manipulation).
You're point about mortgages is highly ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to allow people who want to do something else with their lives to not do math beyond a basic level? They could be learning something else they are passionate or interested in instead. What is the educational value for them, or for society, in forcing them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course?
Because education is very, very necessary to illustrate. Whether it be self-taught or through school, every artist/designer/whateveryouwanttocallthem is educated on the past 600 years of advancements in graphical imagery -- otherwise you can't produce anything interesting because you won't know how to (since art is based on observational science, really). I think basic education is fine -- I don't feel advanced algebra (in other words -- college level or beyond) is necessary to everyone. I was fine passing algebra in high school, but I felt it was a huge waste of time and really unnecessary in college. I feel that past basic high school level algebra, math should not be required to receive higher level education in non-math/sci related fields.
I think I'm getting confused on what everyone means by 'algebra.' There are several different basic algebras with the same name taught in middleschool, highschool, and college -- the one I'm referring to is college algebra. I don't think it's necessary for everyone.
We're talking about high school algebra. Generally it means symbolic manipulation.
I fail to see how education is necessary to illustrate. Maybe artistic education. I'll agree with that. But you can get that at Art Schools. But English, History, Science, these are all unnecessary to you. You don't need a high school diploma to illustrate.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Algebra at the level taught in high school IS basic math. There are 3 reasons you would need it: 1) Kids taking algebra do not know what they want, even if they think they do. Not teaching them fundamental tools like algebra severely restricts their options at an unneccessarily early point of their education. 2) Should you ever change your mind slightly you may be fucked by not knowing algebra. If you decided you wanted some sort of transition into scripting/programming anything graphical you would be fucked for instance. Should you ever encounter algorithmically generated content (very likely), then there is a high likelyhood you will need an understanding of something that requires algebra. 3) Algebra is not just a tool. If you struggle, then likely that is a sign you have a hard time keeping track of a small number of abstract quantities or has a hard time understanding slightly abstract material. These are skills that are very basic to any individual in a career that requires some kind of creativity (whether it be scientific research, engineering, graphical design or sales). Basic algebra is one of the simplest ways to learn this kind of reasoning. If you were already capable of such at an appropriate level you would find algebra trivial.
On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote: I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra.
I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
Ok, thanks. I think in France the word "Algèbre" is really not used to talk about the things we do up to high school that are actually algebra, so that's why I was confused :D.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
You're point about mortgages to high ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
I'd say we need more specialized schools for people who want them. Today's schools train a lot of generalists who are average at everything and excel at nothing. I think that is the pedagogic weakness we face today. Portraying algebra as a problem isn't enough, the root of the problem is elsewhere.
You can be extremely good at one thing, but it won't matter as long as you don't manage to be at least average at the others (cause then you wouldn't pass the class) .
Teacher's tasks are not to recognize these areas of talent and then push us to the limits in these areas, but encourage us to be lazy in the areas we're good at (cause it's sufficient to pass the tests), and put effort into areas we don't have talent in (necessary to pass the tests).
The actual specialization occurs at university, where for many the problem arises that they aren't sure what they're good at, or not good enough at the specialized field they chose, causing all sorts of trouble for them during their studies, interruptions etc.
Schools are slowly implementing an early differentiation in skillsets they teach, but I'm not sure if that will be enough.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
You're point about mortgages to high ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
It's possible to be learned and intelligent without getting a diploma or college degree. What's your point?
On July 29 2012 19:40 Toxi78 wrote: and in what world am i gonig to use litterature, history, geography when i work? i fucking know how to spell and write, i know my birthdate and who is the president, and i can find my house ezpz with my GPS. with this kind of reasoning we're not going to go very far. whoever wrote this article is an idiot.
the redundancy of algebra is just an opinion of the author, it could be any subject yet people place so emphasis on this fact. it's hard to argue against the bias of the considerable majority of TLers here that come from a scientific/mathematic background but the more important issue lies with the linearity of our education system. There should be an option that allows you to focus on fields pertaining to your interest at a much younger age. of course there will be students who are unsure about their future in which they are encouraged to dip their hands in various fields much like what we have today. honestly, there's a ton of shit from high school that either I've completely forgotten or never given a second thought to and yet our people will insist that it has helped subconsciously without us realizing. has it? maybe. do i think so? no, i think my time would've been better invested in developing my interests but that's just me.
yeah. what i liked when i was 3 was drawing. writing my name was way too hard. and counting on my fingers? lol counting on my fingers, no way, it was impossible. i didn't even understand the concept of counting : why would i ever need to count ? i have food, a place to sleep, what's all that counting thing useful for? hell, they should have let me draw all day long, period. turns out i'm not an engineering school student and i also study financial mathematics in parallel. maybe that counting thing was actually my stuff in the end? how can you know you're not interested in something if you never try? highschool courses are EASY and not very deep, they are here to help you understand what you like most and making sure you can develop rational thinking in different fields. turns out it worked perfectly with you, you've developed different interests and you didn't like some other courses. now about your scientific mathematics thing, what i miss the most in my studies right now is philosophy and literature courses. i also think that at my level some courses i must pass are unnecessary for my career. but hell, highschool courses? everyone needs them, even if you don't like them, reality check : you won't like everything you do, your being able to perform in something you don't really enjoy is something you should also develop.
On July 29 2012 20:37 ZenithM wrote: I don't even understand what kind of algebra we're talking about. Is that really the miserable equation solving we did in high school? Maybe this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra ? Because if that's it, I do think this basic knowledge should be taught in high school, it even seems rather useful. Believe me, way more than what we actually call algebra over here :D. In fact, I didn't know it was "algebra" we were doing all along until we started studying structures and vector spaces and all that shit...
If you want to learn about something truly useless in mathematics, check out category theory. And it's 13:37 here.
Yes, we're talking about elementary algebra.
I think you're talking about groups, rings, and vector spaces which is abstract algebra, and as with most areas of advanced mathematics, usually the only applications are to other areas of mathematics or to physics. I believe group theory has applications in quantum physics, something to do with spins or states or particles? But I'm not a physicist so that example might be wrong.
Ok, thanks. I think in France the word "Algèbre" is really not used to talk about the things we do up to high school that are actually algebra, so that's why I was confused :D.
On July 29 2012 16:46 paralleluniverse wrote: For example, the inner product <.,.> is linear in the first slot for mathematicians, but linear in the second slot for physicists.
An inner product is bilinear you noob!
No, that's only true of the real inner product. In general the inner product has conjugate symmetry.
If you define linearity in the second slot instead of the first, then the first becomes conjugate linear, not linear.
ye ur right D:, my bad!
Yo, arguing about this is about as productive as arguing whether people should use injective/surjective over one-to-one/onto - _____________ -;;;
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
You're point about mortgages to high ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
It's possible to be learned and intelligent without getting a diploma or college degree. What's your point?
And I'm a mathematician too! *fistbump*
A high school diploma says "I didn't fail high school", it doesn't imply that "I'm good at math." There are many college degrees. If you learned Art History or Music Theory, then it will say that you majored in that on the piece of paper, so why do they need to know math?
Your argument is, unless algebra or math is required, diplomas and college degrees are worthless for distinguishing the intelligence of graduates?
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
You're point about mortgages to high ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
As I understand it, we're not talking about "being intelligent in math", we're talking about this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra, which is basically replacing a quantity by a variable and having some rules to manipulate such expressions... That little of an abstraction level should be accessible to everyone pretending to be "learned and intelligent".
On July 29 2012 16:28 nicknack wrote: My memory of high school maths below Teacher: x + 5 = 7 Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 7- 5 x = 2 2 + 5 = 7 This proves x = 2
Next question x + 8 =11 Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 11- 8 x = 3 3 +8 =11 This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
Hey, you reminded me of high school. The teacher tells us that a function is called monotonic if it's either increasing or decreasing, and then he draws a sinus-like curve and exclaims: " See that one is not monotonic! " And our reaction : " Yes, it is. It's either increasing, or decreasing." " No, it must be always one or always the other".
On July 29 2012 16:28 nicknack wrote: My memory of high school maths below Teacher: x + 5 = 7 Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 7- 5 x = 2 2 + 5 = 7 This proves x = 2
Next question x + 8 =11 Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 11- 8 x = 3 3 +8 =11 This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
Hey, you reminded me of high school. The teacher tells us that a function is called monotonic if it's either increasing or decreasing, and then he draws a sinus-like curve and exclaims: " See that one is not monotonic! " And our reaction : " Yes, it is. It's either increasing, or decreasing." " No, it must be always one or always the other".
The problem is that the teacher is using the definition of "or" in logic, whereas the student is using the definition of "or" in plain English which confusingly is sometimes the logical "and".
On July 29 2012 16:28 nicknack wrote: My memory of high school maths below Teacher: x + 5 = 7 Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 7- 5 x = 2 2 + 5 = 7 This proves x = 2
Next question x + 8 =11 Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 11- 8 x = 3 3 +8 =11 This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
Hey, you reminded me of high school. The teacher tells us that a function is called monotonic if it's either increasing or decreasing, and then he draws a sinus-like curve and exclaims: " See that one is not monotonic! " And our reaction : " Yes, it is. It's either increasing, or decreasing." " No, it must be always one or always the other".
haha pretty true...well, eventually I guess they work their way around to it. I could have sworn that they come up with the same problem every year and would have learned to address it before the kids are confused. Maybe they just think that it's better to let the kids be confused and then figure it out in terms of learning.
But sometimes....there are just some serious facepalm moments... the kind of level of algebra he was mentioning probably shouldn't be confusing to those kids for too long, otherwise I have some serious reservations about the education system :x
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
The real thing that's important to day-to-day life is understanding rates of change. That's Calculus. Everything about our math education is a stepping stone to get average people to learn Calculus, as it is one of the most powerful tools we have in almost everything we do. So yes, we need Algebra because we want as many people to understand Calculus as possible.
Nobody is saying Algebra should be taken out of education. Most people are saying it shouldn't be a requirement to people not wanting to go into math/sci related fields. It's pointless to make someone like me, who is learning to graphically design images, to learn anything beyond basic math because I simply don't need it or have an interest in it.
Why do you need an education at all to graphically design images? Why is it necessary for you to have a high school diploma when you have not earned it? Why should everyone's diploma be worth less because you don't want to take basic education course?
Because education is very, very necessary to illustrate. Whether it be self-taught or through school, every artist/designer/whateveryouwanttocallthem is educated on the past 600 years of advancements in graphical imagery -- otherwise you can't produce anything interesting because you won't know how to (since art is based on observational science, really). I think basic education is fine -- I don't feel advanced algebra (in other words -- college level or beyond) is necessary to everyone. I was fine passing algebra in high school, but I felt it was a huge waste of time and really unnecessary in college. I feel that past basic high school level algebra, math should not be required to receive higher level education in non-math/sci related fields.
I think I'm getting confused on what everyone means by 'algebra.' There are several different basic algebras with the same name taught in middleschool, highschool, and college -- the one I'm referring to is college algebra. I don't think it's necessary for everyone.
We're talking about high school algebra. Generally it means symbolic manipulation.
I fail to see how education is necessary to illustrate. Maybe artistic education. I'll agree with that. But you can get that at Art Schools. But English, History, Science, these are all unnecessary to you. You don't need a high school diploma to illustrate.
It's not just art that doesn't require high school education. You can drop out and get a GED and still become a doctor/engineer/actor/painter/younameit. Basic education isn't required from schooling -- you can pick and choose what you want to do and pursue it at a university level or higher if you feel it's necessary. You can self-educate yourself on algebra or any other topic if you're really interested in it.
I don't feel algebra is necessary to all students, I think middleschool math (pre-algebra) is fine for most people and I really do feel that you don't need algebra from that point forward. A topic like English, however, most people have to use throughout their entire lives and so I see it fit for something like that to stick (at least in an English speaking country) through high school.
I just think algebra begins to get into more advanced mathematical concepts that aren't necessary or even helpful for people that aren't going into math related fields. I have not used anything algebraic in my day to day tasks because it's highly unnecessary know-how for the way I want to live my life.
So if you want to pursue a career from university onwards, you should be able to do just that. If you have a sudden change of heart, and say, I want to study academic mathematics! but you lack basic algebraic education -- you can still self-teach yourself that and get into a university program, which should help that skill grow. It's not like removing something like algebra from basic education is a big deal. Anyone can teach themselves it if they want to pursue it or there can even be classes set up as an elective to learn it. I think high school should be elective based to get students to figure out what they might want to do, with a few necessary classes like English. College should be a time of specificity and a more narrow, challenging program that has set requirements for these skills.
Algebra is the most practical and commonly used back that there is, correct? Aside from basic addition, multiplication, division, etc. If there's math taught at all (And it shouldn't even be a question as to whether math should be taught), shouldn't algebra be it?
Subjects are often taught stupid. There's gotta be a greater motivation for learning material than "it's on the syllabus" or "it's on the test." However, the problem does not lie in the difficulty of introducing basic abstraction to arithmetic.
On July 29 2012 16:28 nicknack wrote: My memory of high school maths below Teacher: x + 5 = 7 Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 7- 5 x = 2 2 + 5 = 7 This proves x = 2
Next question x + 8 =11 Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 11- 8 x = 3 3 +8 =11 This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
Hey, you reminded me of high school. The teacher tells us that a function is called monotonic if it's either increasing or decreasing, and then he draws a sinus-like curve and exclaims: " See that one is not monotonic! " And our reaction : " Yes, it is. It's either increasing, or decreasing." " No, it must be always one or always the other".
The problem is that the teacher is using the definition of "or" in logic, whereas the student is using the definition of "or" in plain English which confusingly is sometimes the logical "and".
Isn't the teacher using XOR whereas the pupils are using OR in this sense (and are therefore correct)? I mean XOR = 'false' for both arguments 'true', so in this case, 'increasing' OR 'decreasing' = 'true', but 'increasing' XOR 'decreasing' = 'false' if 'increasing' = 'true' = 'decreasing'. But this is waaaay offtopic ^.-
On July 29 2012 16:28 nicknack wrote: My memory of high school maths below Teacher: x + 5 = 7 Get X on its own, minus 5 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 7- 5 x = 2 2 + 5 = 7 This proves x = 2
Next question x + 8 =11 Get X on its own, minus 8 from one side of the equation, what you do to one side you do to the other. x = 11- 8 x = 3 3 +8 =11 This proves x = 3
Half the kids in class "but sir X = 2 in the first problem now X = 3, it cant be both!" *face palm*
Hey, you reminded me of high school. The teacher tells us that a function is called monotonic if it's either increasing or decreasing, and then he draws a sinus-like curve and exclaims: " See that one is not monotonic! " And our reaction : " Yes, it is. It's either increasing, or decreasing." " No, it must be always one or always the other".
The problem is that the teacher is using the definition of "or" in logic, whereas the student is using the definition of "or" in plain English which confusingly is sometimes the logical "and".
Isn't the teacher using XOR whereas the pupils are using OR in this sense (and are therefore correct)? I mean XOR = 'false' for both arguments 'true', so in this case, 'increasing' OR 'decreasing' = 'true', but 'increasing' XOR 'decreasing' = 'false' if 'increasing' = 'true' = 'decreasing'. But this is waaaay offtopic ^.-
On July 29 2012 19:10 Groog wrote: Using the part of the brain where logic comes from trains that part of the brain. There is no other way to train logical thinking besides mathematics and philosophy. No other mental activity accesses the parts of the brain where that kind of abstract thinking is required.
point me to credible studies where learning elementary algebra has lead to measurable increases in a person's logic and reasoning abilities that helped contribute to their success later on in their life regardless of career path. also we're talking about algebra. do not generalize this into mathematics in general.
I'm not going to spend my free time looking for an article that might or might not exist. It is common knowledge and if you had any basic knowledge of neurology you would know that continuously stimulating a certain part of the brain leads to an increase of neural pathways in that area of the brain (while it's still in developement, ofc. i.e. <21years).
Not sure if a person who can't distinguish between neurology and neuropsychology/neurophysiology should be educating anyone on what is common knowledge.
I can't counter his arguement, I'll attack his choice of wording. Grats, you have great rethorics.
On July 29 2012 21:28 Severedevil wrote: Subjects are often taught stupid. There's gotta be a greater motivation for learning material than "it's on the syllabus" or "it's on the test." However, the problem does not lie in the difficulty of introducing basic abstraction to arithmetic.
That was a really fantastic read and I agree with the points it made. Thanks for that.
Although they made painters look dumber than musicians, it would be more like students being forced to paint in greyscale from 1-100 and blend seamlessly so as to make a perfect gradation of values. OR FORCED INTO FULLY RENDERED 30 HOUR STILL LIFE STUDIES with IMPECCABLE perspective and edge qualities. Okay, no high school student can do that, BUT STILL.
While I agree there are some basic fundamental concepts in the early maths that need to be understood, call it "pre-algebra", I do not agree that algebra needs to be understood by everyone. At least it doesn't need to be taught on such an abstract level. If it is going to be taught, it should be as part of the course load for another class. For instance, if you're teaching psychology, you're inevitably going to need to address "correlation versus causation" in discussions of studies. You can teach students how to better understand what a study's results implies - something that is very practical. Or if you're teaching programming, you can relate to students what the modulus function does by talking about converting from 12-hour times to 24-hour times, or with discussion on how to go about creating a Calendar like program.
If someone is genuinely interested in the more abstract side of math, they can pursue that on their own. I agree with the author that it doesn't need to be mandatory at the high-school level. The more applicable and practical portions of math can be taught as part of other classes.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
You're point about mortgages to high ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
It's possible to be learned and intelligent without getting a diploma or college degree. What's your point?
And I'm a mathematician too! *fistbump*
A high school diploma says "I didn't fail high school", it doesn't imply that "I'm good at math." There are many college degrees. If you learned Art History or Music Theory, then it will say that you majored in that on the piece of paper, so why do they need to know math?
Your argument is, unless algebra or math is required, diplomas and college degrees are worthless for distinguishing the intelligence of graduates?
A high school diploma says "I didn't fail high school." Well, no, actually it means "I passed high school." What exactly do you think that means? Is high school just a period of time for people now? Is it another word of adolescence? No, it means you passed courses in basic education. And that's what algebra is. Basic education.
No, I'm saying by allowing people to get a diploma without passing algebra lessens the worth of all degrees. By definition it does this. It no longer means "I have basic math skills." The goal of education is not to pass everyone. The goal of education is to educate.
Furthermore, it's also about work, not just intelligence. What you're saying is that neither should be required for a high school diploma. And that, to me, is horrible.
i disagree that algebra is one of these 'nerd' subjects that regular people just dont need to get by. basic level algebra, the stuff thats compulsory at schools, is just logical problems that really can be applied to real life situations. if you have a budget, and want to know how many apples and oranges you can buy, and in what combination, you are doing algebra. if you cant handle that then you need serious help, not to give up on the class.
On July 29 2012 20:24 DoubleReed wrote: You can't even start physics and chemistry or advanced biology without algebra. Do you expect young people to be attracted to these things if they don't even finish algebra?
But this is typical idiotic American educational thinking: If our students are failing because of a standard, rather than try to better our educational methods and teaching, let's just make it super easy on the students and pass them anyway. Who cares if they learned anything in school? Our passing rates are up!
It's terrible. It's a disgusting disservice that we're doing to our children. Getting an education is actually supposed to mean something. By lowering the standards you aren't making education easier on students, you are simply reducing what "education" means.
I don't know anyone who wants to do physics or chemistry because they love algebra. It goes the other way around. If you're inspired to do science, you will need to learn mathematics and algebra is an important part of that.
But if you're not going to do mathematics or science or anything that is mathematical in nature, then why do you need to know how to factorize a quadratic or integrate log(x)?
The argument isn't simply remove algebra or math. Not everyone will be a mathematician or will use math in any way, so it shouldn't be required. But the article and Gowers' blog post I linked to suggests teaching optional courses that makes people mathematically literate and appreciate mathematical thinking, as opposed to forcing down some convoluted and unrealistic "application" of mathematics, then requiring students to perform symbolic manipulation to solve the problem.
No, you need algebra to even get interested in physics or chemistry in the first place. It's a necessary condition, not a positive correlation. And again, symbolic manipulation is necessary to understand rates of change, which is actually useful for understanding mortgages and blah blah blah.
If you're incapable of understanding and learning Algebra, then why should I pretend like you've gotten a basic education? There are plenty of jobs out there that you do not need ANY kind of education for. That's not an argument to lessen the standards of education. That's an argument for letting people fail, so we can differentiate between the two. Education actually is supposed to mean something. A high school diploma is supposed to mean something.
By reducing the standards you aren't solving any problem. You're faking it. You're simply passing kids who haven't earned it. How does this solve the problem?
You need algebra to learn physics, which is why no one is arguing to abolish math education. But no one is inspired to do physics because they find algebra fun. If you find algebra fun, be a mathematician (on second though, no mathematician will ever be hired to their ability to do symbolic manipulation),.
You're point about mortgages to high ironic.
[It] is deeply boring, and not even all that relevant to the people who are actually taking the exam, who should be enjoying their last few years of not having to think about mortgages, income tax returns and the like. (Does anyone seriously think that teenagers will be filled with enthusiasm by personal finance, when for adults, who are directly affected by it, it is an awful chore?) A conventional A’level student will do plenty of word problems and more mathematics, and will also solve modelling problems when they do statistics and mechanics. Who will end up better at solving mathematical problems that arise in the real world?
How is it lessening the standard of education to not force people who want to do something with their lives to do not math? What is the educational value for them, or for society for force them into doing something they don't like, and won't use?
What is the societal value for pretending like they have a basic education? What is the societal value for passing them, when other people passed by learning how to do basic fucking algebra?
There are plenty of jobs that do not require any education whatsoever. That doesn't mean we should just hand out diplomas on the street.
It might be shocking, but it's possible to be learned and intelligent without being learned and intelligent in math. And this is coming from a mathematician.
It's possible to be learned and intelligent without getting a diploma or college degree. What's your point?
And I'm a mathematician too! *fistbump*
A high school diploma says "I didn't fail high school", it doesn't imply that "I'm good at math." There are many college degrees. If you learned Art History or Music Theory, then it will say that you majored in that on the piece of paper, so why do they need to know math?
Your argument is, unless algebra or math is required, diplomas and college degrees are worthless for distinguishing the intelligence of graduates?
A high school diploma says "I didn't fail high school." Well, no, actually it means "I passed high school." What exactly do you think that means? Is high school just a period of time for people now? Is it another word of adolescence? No, it means you passed courses in basic education. And that's what algebra is. Basic education.
No, I'm saying by allowing people to get a diploma without passing algebra lessens the worth of all degrees. By definition it does this. It no longer means "I have basic math skills." The goal of education is not to pass everyone. The goal of education is to educate.
Furthermore, it's also about work, not just intelligence. What you're saying is that neither should be required for a high school diploma. And that, to me, is horrible.
I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusion of making math optional beyond the basics at high school to passing everyone.
To educate doesn't necessarily imply to educate in math. I can think of a lot of subjects that would be more useful to non-mathematically inclined people than polynomials and parametric equations. For example, classes in statistical literacy and reading graphs and tables, classes on analyzing and thinking about the current news, classes on programming and basic programming logic, classes on food, nutrition and healthy eating etc.
You might say that statistics cannot be learned properly without understanding algebra and calculus (really, it can't be learned properly without measure theory), and I would agree. But the aim of such a course isn't to teach statistics properly, it's to teach how to interpret a confidence interval for people who will never be a mathematician or statistician, rather than for example to prove the almost sure convergence of the sample mean. If you want to learn statistics properly you can take a real math class in high school, and then real math and stats courses at university.
Frankly most people who struggle a lot with math (to the level of failing at it), have problems with logic or problem solving. They called me a "genius", though only compared to others in my school as there was not a single person nearly as capable in maths as me, but on a national level, there were like 1% of people with better finishing exam results than me. I was never into maths that much. All i'm gifted with is an extremely good logical thinking, fairly good memory and unusual problem solving skills. With these I could skewer through all the maths they threw at me until university without lifting a finger. As in high school you are often obligated to know a specific "how to" deal with the problems they bring up.
The point i'm making is that if logic, problem solving is enough to deal with maths, struggling and learning to deal with it might also improve these very important assets.
Though i will agree that math(algebra) course really could be "cut" down a little bit. I never really liked trigonometry as i failed to see practical problems that i needed to solve (which was the only fun thing in maths), yet it was a huge portion of the whole math course. So I (based on my experience) wouldn't mind cutting down a few edges to provide a less confusing math course. But i disagree that writers don't need to know semi-high level maths. Same goes for philosophers. As it is always useful to know and understand more of this world. We can't clone a writer, burst math knowledge into him and compare, but i'm fairly sure that simply knowing all the mathematical problems, flaws, one is more knowledgeable and diverse in his writing.
Wow, people really underestimate the need for algebra. Without mandatory algebra in schools, stupid teenagers may opt to not take maths at all and end up with very little knowledge of the world by the time they finish school. I hate to be elitist at all, but I hate how some people are so ignorant as to fundamentals of the universe/world because they didn't pay attention at all in science. I also hate how there's so many people in the world who are literally stuck with the ideals of a 15 year old who just wants to eat drink have sex and sleep.
Knowledge of algebra is needed. Learning maths is like learning a language. If you can't manipulate an equation you will never understand the functions/equations you're using. I've taught kids who have literally no idea how to manipulate a simple y=mx+c at year 12.
I know a lot of people actually tend towards the arts, but without forcing kids to learn algebra up until senior high school levels really leaves gaps in general knowledge and also severely lowers IQ (as in, how long it takes to take in information) in relation to any science/math subject.
Kids have absolutely NO idea what they want to be when they grow up. These decisions aren't really made until they hit 18. For a greater chance to pursue what they want to do, they need to cover all the bases when it comes to their education. You only need to exit high school with enough knowledge of the world to pursue higher education, or to go out and practice a trade.
Engineers literally make the world go around and yet I bet 95% of the population has no idea what an engineer does. I tutor maths on weekends and students often ask me why they have to learn maths. You LITERALLY need maths in EVERY SINGLE occupation that requires a higher education. Kids don't even understand this.
While I can agree that the way things are taught need reforming, I have a simple question to ask: What are some basic high school courses more fundamental than Algebra?
Unless of course you suggest we shouldn't have required classes at all, just a certain number of them taken.
all i read was lets eliminate math because certain people cant handle it....i agree some people just arent cut out for a higher education but then go the technical school route, dont try to remake our public schools
forget that its the language of physics and hence the universe and all of that.
o and algebra is easy as shit. its actually a pretty good way to decide if you even belong in high school or a trade school now that i think about it
We just need to get rid of the "No kid left behind" rule. There are people who are better off going to a trade school and avoiding classes like algebra which they will not need. I for one need and use algebra/calculus/PDE etc on a daily basis but that is part of working in a science based industry... I didn't use any of that while I was in college asa saleman for a computer store. We need a way to classify students to know how to seperate them to different schools so they can excel in the areas they are most interested in and strong in.
I know that can be a very dangerous thing but I feel it is something that we as a society can tackle with the right people. Just my two cents.
Letting a teenager 13-16 decide whether or not to learn Algebra is basically letting them decide to limit their choice of career in life 5 years down the road.
They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career.
But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there.
I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them. I'll try to give examples.
Algebra is needed in all electricity designs. Voltage = Current * Power. You need to know how to manipulate this very simple equation. Also, you need it for resistances in wire etc.
There are things called strain gauges EVERYWHERE in the world. It works off the principle that resistance is a function of material properties and length. Thus if you have a current going through a thin metal wire, and the wire is elongated or bends, then the resistance changes. This is used in a ridiculous amount of applications such as weight scales (the digital ones), thermostats (thermistors are used here), temperature gauges (heat expands metal which changes length etc)... etc etc.
The power company finds breaks in transmission lines using by striking the end of it and calculating how long it takes for the echo to come back to them. This is a relation of the speed of sound and the material properties, and you can pinpoint the break in a line a mile long using this method. (The sound will reflect from the break, whereas if the line is continuous without breaks, then the echo will not return until it reaches the end of the line).
Or how about you want to calculate whether or not you will make more money with a $10 job 50 miles away or a minimum wage job next door? Calculate your miles per gallon for your car and use that to find your overall expense of the job further away. Or perhaps you can buy a car with 35 mpg to replace your 15 mpg truck and you will realize you save enough in gas to make the car payment every month compared to owning the truck.
Anyhow, there are a MILLION examples on why Algebra is important.
Nature sets the constraints under which science operates, science sets the constraints under which engineering operates, and engineering sets the constraints under which everyone else operates. If we want for the horizons of mankind to expand, we must ensure that as many talented people as possible are exposed to science and mathematics in particular.
The OP is very clearly a "social scientist" who ought to tarred and feathered for daring to present such foolish garbage.
Given the data in the OP, it would appear to me that the problem lies with how you teach mathematics rather than what you teach of it. You could also consider dropping the bar to let people graduate.
PS. I find it hilarious that she should remark that "better" teaching of mathematics might help people to generate improved political opinion and social analysis. My blood boils when I read this kind of degenerate folly in a good newspaper.
PPS. You so called social scientists have done enough damage to society already. It is an affront to justice that it is you attacking us, when it should be us attacking you. Go look at the achievements of each of our disciplines and tell me that teaching science is a bad idea, whilst focusing on social sciences is a good one.
Go on. Go on now. What? What do you mean that's an unfair comparison?
On July 29 2012 22:23 Smoot wrote: Letting a teenager 13-16 decide whether or not to learn Algebra is basically letting them decide to limit their choice of career in life 5 years down the road.
They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career.
But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there.
I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them.
I think you overestimate the amount of jobs that use algebra. The articles cites a source that says that it will be 5% over the next several years. So it will be useless for 95% of students in their future careers.
On July 29 2012 22:24 Kontys wrote: Nature sets the constraints under which science operates, science sets the constraints under which engineering operates, and engineering sets the constraints under which everyone else operates. If we want for the horizons of mankind to expand, we must ensure that as many talented people as possible are exposed to science and mathematics in particular.
The OP is very clearly a "social scientist" who ought to tarred and feathered for daring to present such foolish garbage.
Given the data in the OP, it would appear to me that the problem lies with how you teach mathematics rather than what you teach of it. You could also consider dropping the bar to let people graduate.
PS. I find it hilarious that she should remark that "better" teaching of mathematics might help people to generate improved political opinion and social analysis. My blood boils when I read this kind of degenerate folly in a good newspaper.
PPS. You so called social scientists have done enough damage to society already. It is an affront to justice that it is you attacking us, when it should be us attacking you. Go look at the achievements of each of our disciplines and tell me that teaching science is a bad idea, whilst focusing on social sciences is a good one.
Go on. Go on now. What? What do you mean that's an unfair comparison?
Go suck a fucking tailpipe.
The author of the article is a social scientist. But I'm the OP and I'm not a social scientist. I majored in math at university.
On July 29 2012 22:24 Kontys wrote: Nature sets the constraints under which science operates, science sets the constraints under which engineering operates, and engineering sets the constraints under which everyone else operates. If we want for the horizons of mankind to expand, we must ensure that as many talented people as possible are exposed to science and mathematics in particular.
The OP is very clearly a "social scientist" who ought to tarred and feathered for daring to present such foolish garbage.
Given the data in the OP, it would appear to me that the problem lies with how you teach mathematics rather than what you teach of it. You could also consider dropping the bar to let people graduate.
PS. I find it hilarious that she should remark that "better" teaching of mathematics might help people to generate improved political opinion and social analysis. My blood boils when I read this kind of degenerate folly in a good newspaper.
PPS. You so called social scientists have done enough damage to society already. It is an affront to justice that it is you attacking us, when it should be us attacking you. Go look at the achievements of each of our disciplines and tell me that teaching science is a bad idea, whilst focusing on social sciences is a good one.
Go on. Go on now. What? What do you mean that's an unfair comparison?
Go suck a fucking tailpipe.
The author of the article is a social scientist. But I'm the OP and I'm not a social scientist. I majored in math at university.
So he doesn't want people to have to learn algebra because people are failing at it and failing out of schools? What? I'm an engineering student but I found it perfectly fine to have to take literature classes in high school. I don't see anyone complaining about engineering students having taken literature classes in high school. Why couldn't I have taken technical writing courses in high school instead of reading Shakespear. Oh right, because in some way Shakespear is "culturally fullfilling" while algebra is just some boring math topic. Our culture is based on algebra and mathematics. Mathematics is how humanity began to pull itselfs into enlightenment. To not teach algebra to students just beacuse they aren't good at it is a disgrace. Algebra is the gateway to all levels of high mathematics and to take away this gateway shuts doors for anyone who hasn't taken algebra.
To learn algebra in time for college math requires you to begin in freshman year of high school. Honestly, who here had any idea what they wanted to do with their life at 15? I'm 19 and still clueless, yet I think I want to do something with a STEM field. To allow 15 year olds to not take algebra just because they don't feel like it is extremely dangerous.
We shouldn't be teaching less higher mathematics, we should be teaching more higher mathematics. The system in the U.S. right now is a complete disgrace. The way math is taught and introduced to the students is the problem here. To see what my sister in 7th grade is learning in math makes no sense to me. These kids should begin learning algebra in 5-8th grade and have the majority of the students done with algebra 1 in 8th grade. All thats needed for algebra is arithmatic. This method would cultivate young minds to push more into jobs that matter. With the amount of unemployed graduates with philosophy and journalism degrees, all the country should be rising up, asking for better math education for students. Math is what opens the gateway to jobs that pay. Jobs that you exsist. And yet this author wants to graduate more people with insignificant degrees.
Also, the author's exaggerating a little. If anyone is teaching an introductory algebra course by teaching (x^2+y^2)^2=(x^2-y^2)^2+(2xy)^2 and Fermat's dilemma, they should be stripped of their certification for such nonsense.
If these people aren't passing algebra, it's not eminently clear that they'll do well in any sort of curriculum that still includes math and science. I can see how requiring a 700 in the Math SAT is a little absurd, considering the curve, but I don't see this being a huge issue. I'd like to see how the other countries he refers to-- South Korea, Canada, etc.-- set up their own math curricula, rather than having a one-line dismissal of comparative results.
On July 29 2012 22:23 Smoot wrote: Letting a teenager 13-16 decide whether or not to learn Algebra is basically letting them decide to limit their choice of career in life 5 years down the road.
They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career.
But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there.
I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them.
I think you overestimate the amount of jobs that use algebra. The articles cites a source that says that it will be 5% over the next several years. So it will be useless for 95% of students in their future careers.
Accountants, Engineers, Finance, Economics, Physics, Nuclear Industry, HVAC, Electricians, Building Construction, Any cost / benefit analysis, any Science.....
I think they count for more than 5% of the job market.
The articles you link show that it is difficult for a new graduate to find a job in a bad economy. There are more factors regarding whether or not you get a job than your degree and the economy. The two major ones are work experience and internships. Location is also a limiting factor.
Generally speaking if you have three things open for you, you can find a decent job. Location, Ability, and Willingness to Work. If you have all three of these knocked out, then you won't struggle to find a job. Location is a HUGE limiter, as well as ability and willingness to work. But that's just me talking. If someone REALLY wanted to find a job, and they cast their net nationwide, they will have some options available to them.
Maths (and algebra in general) is actually very benefical for our human development. Without it, we would lose the skill of logical thinking and problem solving. And, as most teachers will tell you when you ask about the purpose of maths and algebra, "Algebra conditions you for your work next time where you need to think on-the-spot and conditions are usually constrained. Maths work like that in a sense where certain questions require certain steps to complete and certain concepts to understand to gain marks."
I think we must learn algebra and calculus not because we might use them ( i never will) but what they do is help us look at things differently, they rewire the way your brain works (in a certain way). If people are failing, removing the course is the worst "solution" ever. Look for better teachers or better ways of teaching algebra, dont look to reward failure.
reminds me of The Onion Movie ... Let's remove math to make it easier to pass, what a bunch of bullshit. People wonder why America (and for the greater part North America) is lagging behind the rest of the world in schooling... Let's remove algebra to raise the passing levels! : D
Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do not need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
But... Algebra is pretty simple. I mean I even have a learning disability and went in the sped classes in high school and I handled it just fine, just took a bit longer than normal.
I have seen the same thing come up multiple times in this thread:
"if kids are failing a course, removing the course isn't the answer; help kids not to fail the course"
...which I honestly don't get. Whether or not kids should be learning something is almost completely independent of whether or not they are all doing well in it at a whole. Just because kids are learning something doesn't mean they should be, and vice versa.
Something else: "I would understand the author's point if algebra wasn't so easy!"
...and how do you determine what is objectively easy or difficult? For you, it apparently wasn't that hard. For many other students it's quite difficult. Part of this is because it's taught imperfectly, and part of it is because we all have brains that work differently.
As for whether or not algebra should be taught to all public school students here: I think at least some should be taught. It's true that not everyone will need to solve an algebraic problem directly in their post-school life, but it's also true that everyone stands to benefit from the experience of learning it and understanding the concepts behind it. I'm more mathematically oriented than over 90% of typical students, so using myself as an example isn't very convincing, but when I talk with my dad (who is also mathematically oriented) we are constantly referring to concepts learned from algebra and above, even without ever solving or creating any algebra problems. Even something as simple as understanding the difference between a linear growth, a parabolic growth, and an exponential growth, is something that you should be picking up in an algebra-related class, and will probably be missed for the majority of students by what the author of the article is proposing.
Not to mention, as a man of physics, knowing algebra is paramount for the study of almost any physics field, and I think the more people that learn some physics the better! (different discussion)
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
Advanced Calculus is where it gets tricky in high school, but obviously that's not required to pass or get into most university courses.
Sorry, but if you can't pass basic Algebra with a good amount of invested effort you are dumb as shit and shouldn't be getting out of high school, or at least be getting out through some sort of SPED program.
The reason people drop out of high school isn't because it's difficult, it's because they are lazy or don't think you'll actually learn anything useful.
You can burn through and learn everything you learn in high school match outside advanced calculus in just 2 weeks.
Removing math from high school is ridiculous considering the amount of fields that require it.
College and University are where people get to start picking and chosing, you SHOULD be required to learn the absolute basics in high school.
When I was finishing up the equivalent of high school here, I was an absolute slacker. In most classes it worked out just fine because I was smart enough to see the essence of what I was learning fast, and that allowed me to get good grades with little to no work. Math though was an entirely different beast. It requires you to continually work with it and actually put in the effort. I'd been sclaking off there for the last 5 years. It made even the simple things we learned insanely hard to do, because my grasp and understanding of the basics such as algebra was lacking. Shit I didnt even know how to properly divide without a calculator. Through hard work in my final year I barely managed to pass (got similar to E-).
Then I got to the university, on an computer engineering course. I finally met people I could work with. I spent every day staying late working on my math most of the first semester. I managed to get a C on my calculus class. The next semester I got an A on the advanced calculus course. It is possible. It is possible for everyone, but you have to do the work. Managing to do just that is on the best things I have ever done for myself. A whole new world opened for me, and now I love the shit out of math. Allowing teens to choose whether or not to apply themselves to the often grueling trial that any part of math may be, is a horrible mistake, atleast it would have been for me. I could never have imagined myself doing what I do now, and I shudder to think where I would have been, had they given me a choice about math.
Let's try to demolish this "..won't need algebra in their careers" argument.
1* Why would it matter? The high school, and to some extent college do not exist to train you directly for THE job you are going to do for the rest of your life. Especially with high school, the needs of the student are necessarily A) getting to a good college and B) generally educational ("so as to not be an ignorant fool for the rest of your life").
2* Mathematics is applied logic. Is logic and it's application important? Is it something we know by nature? Or is it something we do have to learn? The greek word mathematica (exact spelling?) literally means "learning". How could we possibly expect anyone to make anything of themselves if we don't at least have them learn learning.
3* (re-post from earlier) If we choose to not invest as big as we can into mathematics and science (mathematics being pre-requisite for learning science), how can we be sure we invest enough? It is mathematics and science that create the world that we live in. Society is only a monument to scientific achievement.
Nice article and although i loved math i do kinda agree with it.
University doesnt realy teach math or politics or history, it teaches you how to process huge amounts of information in a relativly short amount of time, this information can be annything realy. Math, history, sociology, physics, it does not realy matter what you study, what matters is that you learn to learn, so to say lol. Most people use only verry little from the knowledge they learned at university in their every day job, the learning never stops and the most important things you learn by doing them, one skill they do use all their live though, and that is the skill to learn. As such i dont think students should be forced through huge amounts of maths,though i do think it is still usefull (advanced) maths is easy for some (for thoose who understand it and dont need to learn it) and difficult for manny ,it is probably the biggest challenge to understand and overcoming such a challenge will proove verry valuable throughout your live, even though the knowledge you have gotten from it is not that relevant. Math is good, though i dont think it should be forced, there are plenty alternatives. History, wich is pretty much on the other end of the spectrum, can teach people how to learn and process and understand huge amounts of information just as well basicly.
On July 29 2012 22:46 Clearout wrote: When I was finishing up the equivalent of high school here, I was an absolute slacker. In most classes it worked out just fine because I was smart enough to see the essence of what I was learning fast, and that allowed me to get good grades with little to no work. Math though was an entirely different beast. It requires you to continually work with it and actually put in the effort. I'd been sclaking off there for the last 5 years. It made even the simple things we learned insanely hard to do, because my grasp and understanding of the basics such as algebra was lacking. Shit I didnt even know how to properly divide without a calculator. Through hard work in my final year I barely managed to pass (got similar to E-).
Then I got to the university, on an computer engineering course. I finally met people I could work with. I spent every day staying late working on my math most of the first semester. I managed to get a C on my calculus class. The next semester I got an A on the advanced calculus course. It is possible. It is possible for everyone, but you have to do the work. Managing to do just that is on the best things I have ever done for myself. A whole new world opened for me, and now I love the shit out of math.
Allowing teens to choose whether or not to apply themselves to the often grueling trial that any part of math may be, is a horrible mistake, atleast it would have been for me. I could never have imagined myself doing what I do now, and I shudder to think where I would have been, had they given me a choice about math.
That is the point I have been trying to make for 3 posts.
Why are so many people saying basic algebra is important, but trigonometry has little real world application??
Trig is an integral (yay math thread) part of electronics technology. You know... electricity? That stuff pretty much EVERYTHING runs on? Let's not forget physics! Wanna be a sniper? trig. Artillery? Trig.
You wanna know how the world around you works? Algebra can explain a great deal of it. It's also how thousands of inventions first came to life..
Let me tell you this, you big bunch of god damn nerds, of which I am a part of. Mr. Tony Stark wouldn't have created an Arc Reactor without algebra. This whole thread just has me facepalming.
I'm starting my last semester of a Naval electronics program, after which I'll be posted to a ship in the Royal Canadian Navy. Do I REALLY need to know how to design an amplifier circuit to do my job? No, but I'm damn glad I know how these things work.
On July 29 2012 22:46 Figgy wrote: You can burn through and learn everything you learn in high school match outside advanced calculus in just 2 weeks.
This line got my attention (although it's doubtful you are the only TL user to feel this way...)
Do you seriously think that almost any student can learn all the math they need to graduate in just 2 weeks? (I didn't even include the optional pre-calculus and entry-level calculus you did)
Maybe you can, as a naturally gifted learner of math (I doubt even that), but most kids can't through no fault of their own. I'd like to see some evidence behind such a ridiculous statement for it to be used.
Removing math from high school is ridiculous considering the amount of fields that require it.
Isn't this oversimplifying the discussion? This isn't so black and white... the question isn't whether or not to remove math, but what form required math should take.
College and University are where people get to start picking and chosing, you SHOULD be required to learn the absolute basics in high school.
What is the 'absolute basics'? I agree with you, but the article is simply placing the upper limit on 'absolute basics' at a different place than you.
Learning mathematics or algebra or what ever field of mathematic at its basic level is in my opinion really mandatory, even if you do not need it in your study at university or in your job it teaches you a way of thinking and problemsolving that can be applied to everything if thought the right way.
Why dont we just let the industry decide on the whole curriculum? That way they can form the perfect employees and nothing unneccessary needs to be learned.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
I dont' think we need english classes. I have never needed to know what the parts of a sentence were. And I definitely never needed to learn about any plays and the books were pointless. I wish I could have dropped it because while I was in advance placement in every other subject I would always pick the mid tier english classes so I didn't have to do any real work.
The SATs however have a lot of that stupid and ultimately subjective material in it visa vi the whole english part. In a culture of standardizing intelligence for a mindless workforce you're going to need to know a little of everything.
I'm a physicist so I pretty much communicate in math. I also realize that everyone is different and too much knowledge is never a bad thing.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
This is ridiculous... People are struggling with a subject and therefore it should be removed... Aren't we only lowering everyone standards by removing it? Shouldn't we, instead, try to understand why so many people are having a hard time with logic operations?
Never used it outside of school and I knew when I was learning it it was pointless. Majority of the world don't need or use algebra, but they can't make algebra an elective because no one would take it and we'd have less of the people who need it (idk engineers and what not.)
so they basically shovel shit down all of our throats and hope the shit sticks to a few people and they get turned out by the system.
On July 29 2012 22:23 Smoot wrote: Letting a teenager 13-16 decide whether or not to learn Algebra is basically letting them decide to limit their choice of career in life 5 years down the road.
They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career.
But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there.
I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them.
I think you overestimate the amount of jobs that use algebra. The articles cites a source that says that it will be 5% over the next several years. So it will be useless for 95% of students in their future careers.
Accountants, Engineers, Finance, Economics, Physics, Nuclear Industry, HVAC, Electricians, Building Construction, Any cost / benefit analysis, any Science.....
I think they count for more than 5% of the job market.
The articles you link show that it is difficult for a new graduate to find a job in a bad economy. There are more factors regarding whether or not you get a job than your degree and the economy. The two major ones are work experience and internships. Location is also a limiting factor.
Generally speaking if you have three things open for you, you can find a decent job. Location, Ability, and Willingness to Work. If you have all three of these knocked out, then you won't struggle to find a job. Location is a HUGE limiter, as well as ability and willingness to work. But that's just me talking. If someone REALLY wanted to find a job, and they cast their net nationwide, they will have some options available to them.
You can add a significant percentage of management jobs to that - many projects cannot be overseen properly by people lacking in technical skills, and mathematical skills undeniably contribute to good upper level decision making in large corporations so it is not just a lower management skill. Also, computer science and programming jobs - if you think you program well without maths you're lying to yourself. You either picked up maths without realising it, or your programming could be improved by doing so but you don't realise it. Without maths, you can't even work out how efficient your program will be.
It's needed for logistics and the green-tech industry too.
Also, algebra should not put children off nearly as much as it does. Children in general love maths until the first time they are taught it by a teacher who dislikes maths or teaching. Maths is problem solving, and our brains are hardwired to reward us whenever we solve a problem that challenged us. Taught well, children move seemlessly from working out that if 5 + = 6, must be 1 onwards. There should also be a much greater emphasis on immediate application at all levels. Kids shouldn't be told "This will help with your career," as justification for learning no matter how true that is. They don't really care much about that. It doesn't even need to be applications that they would need to do outside of school, just problems that tie in with their immediate environment. "How much water fills the school swimming pool?" "How many ways can you make up 50c to get a bag of candy?" "When x major league player hit a ball at speed y and angle z last weekend, how high did it get?"
On July 29 2012 22:55 Thenerf wrote: I dont' think we need english classes. I have never needed to know what the parts of a sentence were. And I definitely never needed to learn about any plays and the books were pointless. I wish I could have dropped it because while I was in advance placement in every other subject I would always pick the mid tier english classes so I didn't have to do any real work.
The SATs however have a lot of that stupid and ultimately subjective material in it visa vi the whole english part. In a culture of standardizing intelligence for a mindless workforce you're going to need to know a little of everything.
I'm a physicist so I pretty much communicate in math. I also realize that everyone is different and too much knowledge is never a bad thing.
On July 29 2012 22:23 Smoot wrote: Letting a teenager 13-16 decide whether or not to learn Algebra is basically letting them decide to limit their choice of career in life 5 years down the road.
They will not understand the consequences of not-learning Algebra early on until it is too late. At 18-19 they may say, you know, I wasn't BAD at Algebra, maybe I'll look into a science or engineering career.
But if they decided at 13 not to take Algebra because "it sucked", then they just cut short their future career prospects without realizing it. Not to mention the career prospects that they are forgoing are some of the highest paying career prospects out there.
I'm sure this will get glossed over in 5 minutes with posts about how math stinks and how it is completely worthless to learn for them.
I think you overestimate the amount of jobs that use algebra. The articles cites a source that says that it will be 5% over the next several years. So it will be useless for 95% of students in their future careers.
Accountants, Engineers, Finance, Economics, Physics, Nuclear Industry, HVAC, Electricians, Building Construction, Any cost / benefit analysis, any Science.....
I think they count for more than 5% of the job market.
The articles you link show that it is difficult for a new graduate to find a job in a bad economy. There are more factors regarding whether or not you get a job than your degree and the economy. The two major ones are work experience and internships. Location is also a limiting factor.
Generally speaking if you have three things open for you, you can find a decent job. Location, Ability, and Willingness to Work. If you have all three of these knocked out, then you won't struggle to find a job. Location is a HUGE limiter, as well as ability and willingness to work. But that's just me talking. If someone REALLY wanted to find a job, and they cast their net nationwide, they will have some options available to them.
You can add a significant percentage of management jobs to that - many projects cannot be overseen properly by people lacking in technical skills, and mathematical skills undeniably contribute to good upper level decision making in large corporations so it is not just a lower management skill. Also, computer science and programming jobs - if you think you program well without maths you're lying to yourself. You either picked up maths without realising it, or your programming could be improved by doing so but you don't realise it. Without maths, you can't even work out how efficient your program will be.
It's needed for logistics and the green-tech industry too.
Thanks for adding those in. When I really step back to think about these things I find that the only jobs that do not require Algebra are manual labor , food service, and other "grunt" work. However, if you move one step above the line worker you enter a job that will benefit from a sound understanding of basic Algebra.
I was under the impression the bulk of high-school education was teaching you how to think, not things you were going to need to know. Math teaches logical thinking.
If too many students are failing it, then the solution is not removing it, it's fixing a clear problem with their education.
Newsflash: 99% of stuff you do in highschool is nice and dandy but you'll never end up using it in real life unless you're in a quiz show.
I don't need to know about history to get along in real life. I don't need to know how my eyes are truely working to get along in real life. I don't need to know why my car has enough traction to stay on the road in real life. I don't need to know how to say "Hi, my name is Erik" in Latin (!) in real life. I don't need to know what happens if I mix two chemicals and heat them like crazy in real life.
That's all things that will never ever come in handy in real life unless of course you want to specialize yourself in that direction and even if you do, understanding why and how it works usually is enough to work with it unless you're really aiming for something scientific.
Highschool is not meant to give you some useful things for your way to go. It's meant to be a broad education that will be sufficient if you decide to carry on in one of the many subjects and give you a chance to understand what's happening if you want to figure those things out while at the same time giving people who don't want to carry on a decent (basic) idea of what's going on.
Variety is the purpose of highschool, to make sure as much as possible is covered while admitting that it's covered on an incredible basic level. Telling people to drop out Maths because it's not going to be usefull later on is completly counterproductive for those 2 reasons I just mentioned: 1) Nothing in highschool is good for anything on it's own. The reason math is a topic is because people seem to have problems with it. Biology is about equally useless in daily life, same goes for chemistry, history a 3rd (dead) language, politics, religion (don't know what kind of classes you have outside of germany. All those are mandatory in ger) 2) You're destroying variety while that is the only purpose highschool really has.
Just stop telling people that only geniuses can do math and stop telling kids that you'd need to be crazy to even think about doing math when you're grown up. That would be enough to make sure future generations would get a better hang on maths imo.
On July 29 2012 23:04 Dfgj wrote: I was under the impression the bulk of high-school education was teaching you how to think, not things you were going to need to know. Math teaches logical thinking.
If too many students are failing it, then the solution is not removing it, it's fixing a clear problem with their education.
I have to agree. I just finished my freshman year at a good private school in New York, and one of the major differences I noticed in the education is that the high school students in public school receive calculators for Algebra/Geometry whereas in my school we do not. It's not that we're taught better, but we don't need the calculators to do the math because most of it is concepts and understanding how to do it. It's being able to apply your skills to any situation (real life or in the classroom) and not having to stress out and use a calculator to solve a problem.
Especially in New York, the state tests (aka, the Regents Exams), revolve around knowing how to read charts (for classes like Earth Science and Chemistry) for your answers because they give you "reference tables," as well as knowing how to use your calculator to its fullest. If you know how to use a calculator and read your "reference tables," you can pass any NYS exam for high school basically. It doesn't help students learn at all, and just teaches them how to regurgitate information.
I think that the US' education system doesn't teach people how to think critically and logically, and I think that instead of removing Algebra from the educational system, we need to include classes on logic and have teachers explain how to use what the students have learned in real life scenarios.
We suck at algebra so we should get rid of it? Good logic. This just sounds like a ploy to make us seem smarter than we actually are. Its not about numbers and equations, its about critical thinking and showing that you are able to do something even when you don't like it. As stated numerous times, in many jobs, actually algebra is useless, but it shows employers that this guy can get through something most people hate, work hard, and think critically. In college, chemistry is mandatory, but the ones who make it through with good grades display their work ethic and set of priorities.
On July 29 2012 23:11 GodZo wrote: math is logic, learn math for a better world! ^^
That should be the slogan for some kind of math engagement initiative: "Learn math... for a better world!"
Such an initiative would get my full support. If people want to learn math, then that's awesome. But the point being made is that not everyone wants to learn math or will use it beyond grocery bill arithmetic.
Students can't figure out how to plug algebra problems into their calculators, thus algebra is hard.
I have taken math classes at an american high school, and everybody was constantly using their TIs to solve the most basic problems. In german high school I almost never used a calculator, problems are set up so the numbers are incredibly easy, if you know basic multiplication tables you'll be much quicker doing them by hand than using a calculator, and if the numbers get hard you know you messed up on the way. Math is not about being able to calculate the square root of 50 to 10 decimals (unless you're doing numerics), but to figure out the solution of the quadratic equation is the square root of 50, or even better 5 times the square root of 2. It's about knowing how to get a solution, that's what you're being taught in algebra classes, and you need to be able to solve problems all your life no matter what you decide to do after school.
High school is supposed to provide everyone with a general education, so after finishing high school you still have every option available, at least that's how it is over here. And you really don't want colleges to start teaching people 9th grade math because half the students thought it was useless. In high school you learn a little about everything, so you can figure out for yourself what you enjoy the most and what you want to do after high school.
On July 29 2012 23:04 Dfgj wrote: I was under the impression the bulk of high-school education was teaching you how to think, not things you were going to need to know. Math teaches logical thinking.
If too many students are failing it, then the solution is not removing it, it's fixing a clear problem with their education.
I have to agree. I just finished my freshman year at a good private school in New York, and one of the major differences I noticed in the education is that the high school students in public school receive calculators for Algebra/Geometry whereas in my school we do not. It's not that we're taught better, but we don't need the calculators to do the math because most of it is concepts and understanding how to do it. It's being able to apply your skills to any situation (real life or in the classroom) and not having to stress out and use a calculator to solve a problem.
Especially in New York, the state tests (aka, the Regents Exams), revolve around knowing how to read charts (for classes like Earth Science and Chemistry) for your answers because they give you "reference tables," as well as knowing how to use your calculator to its fullest. If you know how to use a calculator and read your "reference tables," you can pass any NYS exam for high school basically. It doesn't help students learn at all, and just teaches them how to regurgitate information.
I think that the US' education system doesn't teach people how to think critically and logically, and I think that instead of removing Algebra from the educational system, we need to include classes on logic and have teachers explain how to use what the students have learned in real life scenarios.
The reason why "applications" of math in high school are so contrived is because they've been thought up to use a specific piece of math.
There are virtually know real applications of mathematics that use only high school math. The real world is more complicated than that.
On July 29 2012 22:46 Figgy wrote: You can burn through and learn everything you learn in high school match outside advanced calculus in just 2 weeks.
This line got my attention (although it's doubtful you are the only TL user to feel this way...)
Do you seriously think that almost any student can learn all the math they need to graduate in just 2 weeks? (I didn't even include the optional pre-calculus and entry-level calculus you did)
Maybe you can, as a naturally gifted learner of math (I doubt even that), but most kids can't through no fault of their own. I'd like to see some evidence behind such a ridiculous statement for it to be used.
Removing math from high school is ridiculous considering the amount of fields that require it.
Isn't this oversimplifying the discussion? This isn't so black and white... the question isn't whether or not to remove math, but what form required math should take.
College and University are where people get to start picking and chosing, you SHOULD be required to learn the absolute basics in high school.
What is the 'absolute basics'? I agree with you, but the article is simply placing the upper limit on 'absolute basics' at a different place than you.
The question, I feel, is where do we draw the line of mandatory / voluntary. The Japanese way is to have students choose between a "social" curriculum and a science curriculum at the start of high school. We in Finland chose between "long" and "short" math at the beginning of the second year. With essentially the same split as the Japanese: Short meaning a career focused not on rigorous sciences.
So, choice. But timing for offering it should not be too early. I tend to think the Japanese and Finns both choose a bit too early, but I also believe that that is personal bias of mine, since math didn't become challenging for me until the end of the 2nd year or so. That's when I made the choice of wanting to be good at this. It was around 17, after the introduction of integration. However, some of my fellow students couldn't even get through the 3(?) required most basic math courses back in the first year.
Cutting down math education before high school would be utterly retarded of course.
On July 29 2012 22:55 Thenerf wrote: I dont' think we need english classes. I have never needed to know what the parts of a sentence were. And I definitely never needed to learn about any plays and the books were pointless. I wish I could have dropped it because while I was in advance placement in every other subject I would always pick the mid tier english classes so I didn't have to do any real work.
The SATs however have a lot of that stupid and ultimately subjective material in it visa vi the whole english part. In a culture of standardizing intelligence for a mindless workforce you're going to need to know a little of everything.
I'm a physicist so I pretty much communicate in math. I also realize that everyone is different and too much knowledge is never a bad thing.
Papers in pure math also have similar word/equation ratios.
You may not realize this, but mathematicians and physicist need to know how to write.
First of all, that paper has an extremely high word/equation-ratio. Or well, it's pretty normal for an astrophysics paper, when I jumped ship from theoretical physics to astro the ratio went up quite a bit. Just sayin'
My point is, yes I agree with you science-majors need to know how to write in English. However, the superfluous grammar and linguistics a university English course would provide is way too much.
If you can get through a 5 year physics degree, read all the literature, write all the god damn reports you have to write, write a bachelor's and a master's project then your English should be more than sufficient.
Social scientists have been on the offensive lately. We had a similar article as in the OP in one of the major newspapers here about a month ago. Today I read a debate article written by 3 university principals demanding more money for social science research. They were upset that most government funding goes into technology and medicine research.
As a whole I think our western society is getting a bit too complacent. We demand less and less from kids in compulsory school systems. It is not a surprise to my why questions like these are asked. Why torture some kids with algebra when our countries are doing better than ever ?
It is a very dangerous path to take though. One that might end up in a state of idiocracy.
The problem is very large and complex. Seemingly a lot of people don't even know why the hell they should know some mathematics. If maths is something a kid struggles with it is easy for him/her to become very defensive and question the purpose of learning it. What is scarier though is that teachers often are completely clueless as well. I never got a good answer from any of my math teachers why I should learn maths . They believed very strongly that it was very important, but didn't manage to explain why.
In this country the system has completely collapsed. If you fail mathematics in the fourth grade or whatever, you should not just be passed on to the fifth grade math course as if everything was fine. Fifteen-twenty years ago this would never happen. These days it happens all the time. The result is that high school students struggle like hell with maths because they don't have the knowledge that you are supposed to have if you have passed previous maths courses. Some of them do just fine anyways, and then rightfully ask themselves why they were put through x years of mathematical torture from which they learned close to nothing.
We are slowly but surely creating an underclass. The sad thing is that this is because we don't require our school kids to know the stuff that they are supposed to know by the curriculum. It is as much a right to be given the education the law is supposed to guarantee as it is an obligation by politicians, teachers , parents etc. to demand and make sure that the system works as it is supposed to work.
Why should one know some mathematics then? What is a good answer? I think you could write a very thick book about this. It is not something you just answer with a few sentences. Therefore it is actually good to say this to the students; You should study maths because wise old men and women has decided so. To understand news papers and news broadcasts on TV while maintaining a reasonable ability of source criticism I am of the opinion that you need to know at least high school level mathematics. This could be some kind of bottom line statement to build more detailed arguments off.
To be able do discuss more advanced topics you need more mathematics of course. One such topic is interpreting statistics. This forum is full of threads where 95% of all posters talk completely out of their ass about statistics. For example you can go look at the monthly TLPD win rate statistics threads.
On July 29 2012 23:04 Dfgj wrote: I was under the impression the bulk of high-school education was teaching you how to think, not things you were going to need to know. Math teaches logical thinking.
If too many students are failing it, then the solution is not removing it, it's fixing a clear problem with their education.
I have to agree. I just finished my freshman year at a good private school in New York, and one of the major differences I noticed in the education is that the high school students in public school receive calculators for Algebra/Geometry whereas in my school we do not. It's not that we're taught better, but we don't need the calculators to do the math because most of it is concepts and understanding how to do it. It's being able to apply your skills to any situation (real life or in the classroom) and not having to stress out and use a calculator to solve a problem.
Especially in New York, the state tests (aka, the Regents Exams), revolve around knowing how to read charts (for classes like Earth Science and Chemistry) for your answers because they give you "reference tables," as well as knowing how to use your calculator to its fullest. If you know how to use a calculator and read your "reference tables," you can pass any NYS exam for high school basically. It doesn't help students learn at all, and just teaches them how to regurgitate information.
I think that the US' education system doesn't teach people how to think critically and logically, and I think that instead of removing Algebra from the educational system, we need to include classes on logic and have teachers explain how to use what the students have learned in real life scenarios.
The reason why "applications" of math in high school are so contrived is because they've been thought up to use a specific piece of math.
There are virtually know real applications of mathematics that use only high school math. The real world is more complicated than that.
I thought about teaching math before I got into engineering. I'm still thinking I may get into teaching after I retire from engineering. But anyhow, I worked as a tutor for a couple years while still in college.
The main reason that it is hard to teach people the applications of math is that almost refuse to understand the basic rules of algebra to begin with. Most students came to me a day before a test and said HELP I need to learn how to do this stuff. I'd ask, alright, where do you need help? Their reply was everything. I tried to explain that I couldn't teach them a semester worth of Algebra in a day.
My point is that these students can't answer real life problems without knowing the basic rules first. You can do the farmer problem... "If Farmer Joe plans to use an acre of land to plant corn, and uses a packet of 100 seeds with an 80% success growth rate. Each successful seed is expected to produce 5 ears of corn , what is his expected return if the packet of seeds cost $5. Farmer Joe sells his corn at $2.00 per dozen." and I doubt 5 people in a class of 30 would give you the right answer.
I've even tried to explain math by using DPS and Monster HP pools. Given a certain dps how long will it take for the monster to die. They looked at me like I was stupid.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
On July 29 2012 23:19 Alvin853 wrote: Students can't figure out how to plug algebra problems into their calculators, thus algebra is hard.
I have taken math classes at an american high school, and everybody was constantly using their TIs to solve the most basic problems. In german high school I almost never used a calculator, problems are set up so the numbers are incredibly easy, if you know basic multiplication tables you'll be much quicker doing them by hand than using a calculator, and if the numbers get hard you know you messed up on the way. Math is not about being able to calculate the square root of 50 to 10 decimals (unless you're doing numerics), but to figure out the solution of the quadratic equation is the square root of 50, or even better 5 times the square root of 2. It's about knowing how to get a solution, that's what you're being taught in algebra classes, and you need to be able to solve problems all your life no matter what you decide to do after school.
High school is supposed to provide everyone with a general education, so after finishing high school you still have every option available, at least that's how it is over here. And you really don't want colleges to start teaching people 9th grade math because half the students thought it was useless. In high school you learn a little about everything, so you can figure out for yourself what you enjoy the most and what you want to do after high school.
This exactly goes back to what I was saying in my post, and why I believe that public high schools are doing it wrong. The education system should not be based upon getting the correct answer, but rather finding out the "mechanism" or equation to solving a problem and being able to apply this to any situation, even if the directions don't tell you what to do. I think that's where the true fault of the educational system is.
On July 29 2012 23:00 xrapture wrote: Never used it outside of school and I knew when I was learning it it was pointless. Majority of the world don't need or use algebra, but they can't make algebra an elective because no one would take it and we'd have less of the people who need it (idk engineers and what not.)
so they basically shovel shit down all of our throats and hope the shit sticks to a few people and they get turned out by the system.
QFT. This is exactly what I have been talking about so far. I re-post my other point here: Science has a track record of such amazing success that it is worth the possibility of sounding foolish to say, that we are doing too little to promote science in school.
I'm going to be honest and say that I'm not that great at math. But I know the basics and I think everyone should know the basics of algebra. I think the problem is the teaching method. It's the same for every subject, but math itself is very much text book based in highschool and that itself can cause students to lose interest in studying it. The teachers too should be somewhat to blame. I'm not saying all teachers are bad (I'm going to school to become one myself), but some mathematics teachers are not invested in making sure that it's interesting and that everyone understands. Especially at the earlier stages of learning the subjects. I've found that I did poorly in subjects where I didn't get motivating teacher to teach me the fundamentals.
math is opposite of literature in many ways. So why don't we stop teaching both and see how it goes? Maybe we should only teach how to read in schools so that people could read and learn things that they want to?
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
On July 29 2012 23:14 omgimonfire15 wrote: We suck at algebra so we should get rid of it? Good logic. This just sounds like a ploy to make us seem smarter than we actually are. Its not about numbers and equations, its about critical thinking and showing that you are able to do something even when you don't like it. As stated numerous times, in many jobs, actually algebra is useless, but it shows employers that this guy can get through something most people hate, work hard, and think critically. In college, chemistry is mandatory, but the ones who make it through with good grades display their work ethic and set of priorities.
1) Nobody is saying it should be removed -- most are saying it should be something that's more optional or taught in a different way so students struggling can understand it or get something useful out of it.
2) Chemistry displaying work ethic and priority making is too black and white of thinking. I failed college algebra three times -- I have a great mathematical learning disability. I can't even do basic math. I miss 7+6 half the time. I had several private tutors and I studied much harder than those that were lazy and smoothly sailed by -- yet I still failed. I was literally making grades below those that were barely trying, yet many were making A's and B's.
I don't think it's that I'm completely stupid -- I simply have a learning disability when it comes to using numbers. So what happens to people like me? It's not because I didn't have priorities set. It's not because I displayed a poor work ethic. It's because of an innate problem with mathematics that I will always have (and have had since I started school as a wee child). For me, it's impossible to have any career related to math because I simply can not understand the type of abstract reasoning it presents.
So what use is a mathematics course being mandatory for me? I do fine in almost every single subject. My report cards in college literally read A A B F, and you can guess what I was failing every semester (and having to repeat). I took statistics three times too. It's not that I can't be taught and learn from schooling, it's that I'm absolutely terrible in one department of reasoning -- mathematics. I feel that some courses should be optional for this very reason, so people like me stand a chance at becoming educated without having to suffer through the ordeals of major learning issues like I have. So what am I to do -- not be able to pass regular schooling to get to something more specific (and unrelated) to math just because I can't pass one subject?
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
But the farmers didn't do the math.
But the farmers could benefit from cost-benefit analysis and financial literacy beyond the heuristic. Both of these require some algebra or maths thinking to some degree.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
But the farmers didn't do the math.
How does a farmer know what to expect from a crop in any year? How does he calculate his return for investing in farm equipment to reduce time needed to harvest / plow / and seed his fields? How does he calculate the cost / benefit of hiring more workers for the farm? Etc.. etc... etc
Of course he could just pay me $50/hr as a consultation fee and I can do all that for him. Further disabling him to make good decisions on his own and without cost.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
As it happens mathematicians are scientists, and there are no scientists active in their field who do not require mathematics in their day-to-day work.
Real mathematicians do it on a computer (Maple or Mathematica), not a calculator.
The calculators computer algebra systems is really just a lot of methods developed by people 100 years ago. I still remember having to use Newton's Method in solving some systems from Numerical Analysis.
I just don't understand how American students have so much difficulty in algebra. The article makes the subject seem like rocket science, but honestly it really isn't that difficult.
On July 29 2012 23:27 one-one-one wrote: Social scientists have been on the offensive lately. We had a similar article as in the OP in one of the major newspapers here about a month ago. Today I read a debate article written by 3 university principals demanding more money for social science research. They were upset that most government funding goes into technology and medicine research.
As a whole I think our western society is getting a bit too complacent. We demand less and less from kids in compulsory school systems. It is not a surprise to my why questions like these are asked. Why torture some kids with algebra when our countries are doing better than ever ?
It is a very dangerous path to take though. One that might end up in a state of idiocracy.
The problem is very large and complex. Seemingly a lot of people don't even know why the hell they should know some mathematics. If maths is something a kid struggles with it is easy for him/her to become very defensive and question the purpose of learning it. What is scarier though is that teachers often are completely clueless as well. I never got a good answer from any of my math teachers why I should learn maths . They believed very strongly that it was very important, but didn't manage to explain why.
In this country the system has completely collapsed. If you fail mathematics in the fourth grade or whatever, you should not just be passed on to the fifth grade math course as if everything was fine. Fifteen-twenty years ago this would never happen. These days it happens all the time. The result is that high school students struggle like hell with maths because they don't have the knowledge that you are supposed to have if you have passed previous maths courses. Some of them do just fine anyways, and then rightfully ask themselves why they were put through x years of mathematical torture from which they learned close to nothing.
We are slowly but surely creating an underclass. The sad thing is that this is because we don't require our school kids to know the stuff that they are supposed to know by the curriculum. It is as much a right to be given the education the law is supposed to guarantee as it is an obligation by politicians, teachers , parents etc. to demand and make sure that the system works as it is supposed to work.
Why should one know some mathematics then? What is a good answer? I think you could write a very thick book about this. It is not something you just answer with a few sentences. Therefore it is actually good to say this to the students; You should study maths because wise old men and women has decided so. To understand news papers and news broadcasts on TV while maintaining a reasonable ability of source criticism I am of the opinion that you need to know at least high school level mathematics. This could be some kind of bottom line statement to build more detailed arguments off.
To be able do discuss more advanced topics you need more mathematics of course. One such topic is interpreting statistics. This forum is full of threads where 95% of all posters talk completely out of their ass about statistics. For example you can go look at the monthly TLPD win rate statistics threads.
I love you, definitely the best post in the thread.
On another note, tell the kids that science (science needs math) has tripled human life expectancy.
We have seen some of that social scientist aggression here in Finland as well. I find it delusional at best and self-destructive at worst. I would go so far as to say that social sciences are sustained because their adherents are good at arguing for their own existence, rather than providing any actual contributions to society. This may be because many of these disciplines were founded as political movements (Liberalism, Marxism as branches of political science and economics, etc).
Honestly, the article in the OP did everything right, except picking on Algebra. Algebra is not all that difficult, and has uses. In fact, we use basic versions of it without even realizing it.
But, there is some merit to taking things like Trig. I do not remember a single piece of the Trig I took in HS. I couldn't use any of it, honestly, I don't even remember the class. I don't remember anything about it, and all it has done for me is bring down my HS grade average. My lack of knowledge of it has never affected anything, but I had to take it.
Algebra is useful, and easy enough. Working with those who don't get it can get them through it.
But when they have to take anything above that, like geometry, Trig, Calc, whatever, those are useless except for professions which require them...and if you're having problems with any of those, you probably aren't going into one of those professions.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
But the farmers didn't do the math.
But the farmers could benefit from cost-benefit analysis and financial literacy beyond the heuristic. Both of these require some algebra or maths thinking to some degree.
Yes, the farmer could benefit from that.
What I meant was that he didn't do the math that contributed to scientific innovations that increased crop yield. Nor would he understand this math, nor would he need to understand this math.
According to the principle of comparative advantage, farmers should understand the math required to be a better farmer, basically the stuff you said.
On July 29 2012 23:19 Alvin853 wrote: Students can't figure out how to plug algebra problems into their calculators, thus algebra is hard.
I have taken math classes at an american high school, and everybody was constantly using their TIs to solve the most basic problems. In german high school I almost never used a calculator, problems are set up so the numbers are incredibly easy, if you know basic multiplication tables you'll be much quicker doing them by hand than using a calculator, and if the numbers get hard you know you messed up on the way. Math is not about being able to calculate the square root of 50 to 10 decimals (unless you're doing numerics), but to figure out the solution of the quadratic equation is the square root of 50, or even better 5 times the square root of 2. It's about knowing how to get a solution, that's what you're being taught in algebra classes, and you need to be able to solve problems all your life no matter what you decide to do after school.
High school is supposed to provide everyone with a general education, so after finishing high school you still have every option available, at least that's how it is over here. And you really don't want colleges to start teaching people 9th grade math because half the students thought it was useless. In high school you learn a little about everything, so you can figure out for yourself what you enjoy the most and what you want to do after high school.
This exactly goes back to what I was saying in my post, and why I believe that public high schools are doing it wrong. The education system should not be based upon getting the correct answer, but rather finding out the "mechanism" or equation to solving a problem and being able to apply this to any situation, even if the directions don't tell you what to do. I think that's where the true fault of the educational system is.
That is the most likely source of the problem. Maybe they should work on a way to change the way math is taught instead of saying "our pupils are too bad to understand math, lets stop teaching them the most important stuff in their lives".
I mean you need basic algebra for so much in your life, no matter in which job you work you need at least a basic grasp of math every time you handle anything related to money, even if it's just your paycheque. "I applied to job X where i get paid Y but i have to move. How much can i spare for rent after deductions and stuff?"
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
This is true to a point. But do people aged 13-16 know what they want to do the rest of their lives? Not learning basic Algebra in high school limits their options later in life. I am of the mind that a teenager can CHOOSE to be good at anything they set their mind to. There are limiters, but I'll not go into that. Letting someone choose whether or not they want to do something hard, without realizing they are limiting their future career choices in life is a mistake in my opinion.
The comparative advantage argument falls apart when you consider the achievements of hard science, for which learning mathematics is a required. The achievements of science haven't simply increased mathematicians capability of doing their stuff right, the achievements of scientists have tremendously increased the capabilities of others in completely unrelated tasks.
Not really. The comparative advantage argument says we should make scientists better at science. But being better at science doesn't involve just learning and doing science but also learning and doing mathematics.
It is true that science and mathematics has had a mutually beneficial relationship.
I was clumping up mathematicians and scientists vs the rest of the world. As in, investing in mathematics and science has helped us increase, say, farm productivity by a thousand fold. The farming being the unrelated task.
But the farmers didn't do the math.
How does a farmer know what to expect from a crop in any year? How does he calculate his return for investing in farm equipment to reduce time needed to harvest / plow / and seed his fields? How does he calculate the cost / benefit of hiring more workers for the farm? Etc.. etc... etc
Of course he could just pay me $50/hr as a consultation fee and I can do all that for him. Further disabling him to make good decisions on his own and without cost.
These kinds of arguments are close to useless.
When arguing why people should learn mathematics you can't take this approach. You give examples of practical real life situations where it is good to know some very small subset of mathematics. Not even if you make a whole list in the spirit of trying to cover all areas of mathematics would it be good. You are reducing the subject of mathematics by arguing like this.
What you have to catch is the more general reasons.
I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to understand the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy, and more importantly, their own personal finances.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Real mathematicians do it on a computer (Maple or Mathematica), not a calculator.
That is quite an eye opener for me. Thanks for explaining.
Back when I was in secondary school (high school equivalent) calculators were only there for values with lots of decimals, logs and trig.
Same here in Australia.
When I moved to Australia, my high school required students to have a graphing calculator, except for higher level maths students in their last 2 years. I had just come from a school where there was no calculator use at all, and it was a little jarring to see students using a calculator for fairly simple multiplication. That was in NSW, I'm not sure how other states deal with the issue.
I understand the basic problem - looking for ways to make education more accessible - but removing a subject because people don't like it or don't do well at it is the wrong way to go about it.
People don't HAVE to be bad at math. Not everybody is going to ace their college calc courses, but basic algebra doesn't really require mental pushups. We are bad at math because we don't care about it, and because we spend most of our lives talking about why we don't care about it.
Think about it. How many times have you asked yourself, or been asked, where you're going to use a math course in the future? We lack a fundamental appreciation for the basic goal of basic math courses: To make ourselves comfortable with numbers, and to gain an appreciation, at a really personal level, for how much they impact our lives.
Maybe you'll never need to use precisely what you learn in high school algebra. But then, you'll probably never need to know why the war of 1812 was fought, either. You can get by without both. But ask anyone why they're learning history, and you've got a decent chance of hearing, "because those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it." I've heard no such similar slogan for mathematics, and that's not math's fault. It's ours.
Those who don't understand numbers in a world that's run by them are destined to flounder.
Imagine if all those people getting tricked into subprime loans had been mathematically literate enough to whip out a pencil and paper when they were presented with the terms of the loan, and figure out that they probably couldn't afford it. Wouldn't have helped everyone (some of them were just too desperate) but I assert that it would have been a good start.
This looks at things from the wrong perspective. Instead of asking "how can we make math a more easily understood so that our students can go on to earn degrees?", the author asks, "how can we remove basic math from its required status?" This is symptomatic of the american view (im an american) that college is for everyone. This is the belief that is responsible for rising education costs and worthless degrees.
As with most subjects in school, from first grade until last year in university, you need to have some form of interest in the subject to be good at it. People who are struggling with algebra or any other math subject are struggling simply because their brains cannot find the interest to learn it. Mathematics require a different form of analytical thinking than most subjects and if you are not interested enough, even on a subconscious level you will find it difficult. I'm in my third year of physics in university right now and I've been struggling a lot simply because the mathematical process has been uninteresting to me (this has been a serious problem for me and goes deeper than "math is hard/boring"). Of course there have been outside influences affecting this a a lot but my brain simply started to say no to the basic process of solving mathematical problems. If I got to see a solution I understood it immediately which says to me I personally have a problem with my study technique. This might have been slightly off topic but I kinda needed myself as an example of its not the subject itself which is particularly difficult, the problem lies in motivation and self-discipline.
Ok, in Norway we have different "levels" of math. You don't have to take the algebraic and calculi types of math; but you can. None of the "new" math you suggest should be mandatory.
But I don't agree with everything. Certain aspects of math CAN reach further than you suggest. Not everyone will connect the dots (as evident by the article), but they are there for those who use mathematics as a tool.
Take "But there is no reason to force them to grasp vectorial angles and discontinuous functions". Vectorial angles are the basis for physics in 2 or 3 dimensions. Meaning you will essentially lose out on everything that today is calculus. Without knowing what type of functions calculus applies to, you may aswell write: "But there is no reason to force them to grasp physics and calculus". This must be your statement.
If you're ok with this, then that statement made sense. You are not required to grasp the rigorous details of proving a continuous function (in order to apply calculus); but it is essential to realize wether you're looking at a continuous function or not.
Trigonometry is essential for any physics or engineering class, as is calculus. But if you do not pass these subjects, then this line of work probably isn't for you anyway. Ofcourse there could/should be an "alternative" form of schooling, one which puts less emphasis on math. But there's no point in beating around. Quantitative reasoning cannot be done without the actual equations and knowing their dependence. i.e consumer price index. (Hence the word "quantitative") Any form of quantitative reasoning without the application of the mathematics behind will result in completely random outcomes.
I fail to see that if general algebra and calculus isn't "as widely applicable in jobs as we like to think", then how are cases of looking at special cases quantitively of greater value? First ignoring qualitative 'reasoning', AND only looking at special cases (mind you, statistics is harder than algebra and calculus, because statistics need these as a foundation, so you either must learn these, or you limit yourself to the type of statistics you view in the classroom without knowing why this works, so you cannot apply it elsewhere in confidence) does NOT, in any way, give you more tools to do different jobs. It gives you less tools.
The reason I say this is because the entire 'reason' for learning algebra and calculus is that you can much more easily apply this knowledge when training for a new job, and more quickly arrive at an understand of the tasks at hand, IF they are related to maths. If you only have quantitative training in special cases, then you have infact trained for very specific things, and might not have gathered enough general knowledge to throw yourself into a field that requires slightly different mathematics: Your training period would take more time.
It's a comprimise for sure. But anything should be done to help students pass highschool. For college level I'd be more restrictive. Where math is of issue, it is of issue, and must be included. When it isn't it isn't, and can be omitted. Any math that avoids algebra and calculus at college and university level should not be called math, but should instead be part of a specialized training or even practice.
For instance an "electrician" requiring Ohm's law could potentially learn this and only this law; but he would not understand any details about his job; he'd only be able to screw things together in the simplest of circuits, or hope for the best. If you ask him to apply kirkhoffs rules to make sure his circuits are sustainable, or solve differential equations or even just look at the "phases" of the circuits, he'd just scratch his head if he did not know algebra and calculus. And there'd be no way he could train for any of this without this mathematical knowledge. But he could gain enough practical experience to fix typical housing electronics. He'd have to verify that he was familiar with this type of circutry, and then he could begin setting them up, or doing required tasks. But such training would take much longer, as they would look like different recipes for each and every circuit, while someone with a calculus background would see that they are all the same, but with different quantitative and qualitative outcomes.
The same goes for areas such as economics and insurance, any form of engineering, programming, and obviously teaching positions, natural sciences, medical staff (anything from nurses to surgeons) and the list goes on.
Conclusion, I guess, is that algebra isn't neccesarily neccesary, but you limit yourself when it comes to future careers and how much you can excell in these career choices. But that might not be a bad thing as you probably want to steer clear of these fields of work anyway. But there's ALOT to miss out on. It's not the fact that x^2+y ... is the set of equations you have to solve for the rest of your life, it is that any training for any new position that uses some math, is completed alot faster and with more independence and with greater possibility for excelling, than only having specific training that you have to do from "ground up" for every new position; severely limiting the potential that can be realized within your job or career choice. There shouldn't be any dillusion that "one thing can be just as good as the other". It simply isn't. It can be done, but the cost is greater and possibilities fewer (not that there can't be exceptions).
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Good article, but I feel that it focused too much on the problem and not on what should be done about it. Is it news to everyone that the USA is far behind in math skills compared to a lot of other countries in the world? I feel as if people have known about this issue for a while but nobody has the answers to why or how to fix it (or the guts to do something about it really).
This also reminded me of A Mathematician's Lament (links in a previous post). Everyone should read that as I feel it addresses the heart of the problem and also lays out the groundwork for how to fix it and how curriculum should change.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
High school isn't supposed to be all applied to your line of work. If you want only what is relevant and absolutely nothing else, try grad school. Until then, it's important to realize that there's a purpose to teaching a little of everything.
Also, for those who mentioned that this is why the US imports workers: completely different issue. Trained professionals in the US are among the best (but most expensive). Our universities are the best in the world. It's the students that fail to reach that level that don't finish high school. Not to say that those students aren't a problem, just that it's a different one altogether.
On July 29 2012 23:59 Foolishness wrote: Good article, but I feel that it focused too much on the problem and not on what should be done about it. Is it news to everyone that the USA is far behind in math skills compared to a lot of other countries in the world? I feel as if people have known about this issue for a while but nobody has the answers to why or how to fix it (or the guts to do something about it really).
This also reminded me of A Mathematician's Lament (links in a previous post). Everyone should read that as I feel it addresses the heart of the problem and also lays out the groundwork for how to fix it and how curriculum should change.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations. I would also derive the formula. Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Haha I agree with you in a certain sense, but that this approach to teaching Algebra included singing is more a reflection of my old teacher than the sort of changes in math education I'm talking about. Funnily enough, that same class of individuals turned out some very brilliant math minds, and not a single person I've talked to who has taken Mrs. Flahie's honors algebra class has ever forgotten the quadratic formula The point is that this article is basically supporting a pedagogical signal of defeat, as though the very nature of Algebra somehow makes it incommunicable to some people. And while this may be the case in an extremely remote sense, the teaching of math is something that can still be improved on dramatically enough to improve the classroom experience by leaps and bounds.
Here's the problem: Good people in the work force need to know how to work hard and smartly. Passing something you fucking suck at is a lesson in perserverence, utilizing resources (the internet, your teacher/TAs, tutors, etc), and overcoming obstacles, which is essential down from the factory worker to the CEO.
If we keep cutting the curriculum like this, it will teach people that the world is wrong, not them: It was the Algebra making me fail, not my own deficiencies. If everyone has that attitude, our nation is truly going to shit.
That said, I'm not opposed to educational reform, Extra Credits did a thing on Gamification of education a while back that seems like a good place to start, but perhaps isn't the full solution. I won't offer a full solution because I don't have one, what I do know,though, is that eliminating parts of the curriculum to get people through school is working at it from the wrong angle.
On July 29 2012 23:14 omgimonfire15 wrote: We suck at algebra so we should get rid of it? Good logic. This just sounds like a ploy to make us seem smarter than we actually are. Its not about numbers and equations, its about critical thinking and showing that you are able to do something even when you don't like it. As stated numerous times, in many jobs, actually algebra is useless, but it shows employers that this guy can get through something most people hate, work hard, and think critically. In college, chemistry is mandatory, but the ones who make it through with good grades display their work ethic and set of priorities.
1) Nobody is saying it should be removed -- most are saying it should be something that's more optional or taught in a different way so students struggling can understand it or get something useful out of it.
2) Chemistry displaying work ethic and priority making is too black and white of thinking. I failed college algebra three times -- I have a great mathematical learning disability. I can't even do basic math. I miss 7+6 half the time. I had several private tutors and I studied much harder than those that were lazy and smoothly sailed by -- yet I still failed. I was literally making grades below those that were barely trying, yet many were making A's and B's.
I don't think it's that I'm completely stupid -- I simply have a learning disability when it comes to using numbers. So what happens to people like me? It's not because I didn't have priorities set. It's not because I displayed a poor work ethic. It's because of an innate problem with mathematics that I will always have (and have had since I started school as a wee child). For me, it's impossible to have any career related to math because I simply can not understand the type of abstract reasoning it presents.
So what use is a mathematics course being mandatory for me? I do fine in almost every single subject. My report cards in college literally read A A B F, and you can guess what I was failing every semester (and having to repeat). I took statistics three times too. It's not that I can't be taught and learn from schooling, it's that I'm absolutely terrible in one department of reasoning -- mathematics. I feel that some courses should be optional for this very reason, so people like me stand a chance at becoming educated without having to suffer through the ordeals of major learning issues like I have. So what am I to do -- not be able to pass regular schooling to get to something more specific (and unrelated) to math just because I can't pass one subject?
Attend a special school? Apparently you're not able to complete a regular school - but there are other options. Why should the normal (as in for the majority / masses) education system be changed for the need of a few people with a disability? Should we change every subject so even people with a disability in that subject are able to complete every course? So why do you want to force the issue and bang your head against math courses instead of pursuing another degree in a special school? It's not like people who attend special schools are stupid, so you have the option (or would at least have the option in Germany - dont know the US^^) to get a good degree but for whatever reason you dont want to switch, but rather complain.
saying that algebra isn't useful to everyday living is almost like saying that oxygen isn't useful for everyday breathing. for instance, i need to go grocery shopping, i need to know how many and at what price my needed items are, then how much money i can spend. thats the heart of algebra (Ax+By...)-Z=0.the problem is most people think of math as this esoteric thing instead of as a way to frame the world and a way to make decisions about concrete ideas. hell, people use calc3 when playing baseball or football (3d analysis and force vector combinations intersecting planes of multiple moving pieces). the problem is that math taught by someone who doesn't understand math is worse than useless. it teaches that math isn't applicable, when in reality, it is how the world works.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
On July 30 2012 00:15 Brutland wrote: saying that algebra isn't useful to everyday living is almost like saying that oxygen isn't useful for everyday breathing. for instance, i need to go grocery shopping, i need to know how many and at what price my needed items are, then how much money i can spend. thats the heart of algebra (Ax+By...)-Z=0.the problem is most people think of math as this esoteric thing instead of as a way to frame the world and a way to make decisions about concrete ideas. hell, people use calc3 when playing baseball or football (3d analysis and force vector combinations intersecting planes of multiple moving pieces). the problem is that math taught by someone who doesn't understand math is worse than useless. it teaches that math isn't applicable, when in reality, it is how the world works.
Nobody uses algebra when doing shopping. No baseball player does calculus. Just because the situation can be analyzed with algebra or calculus doesn't mean anyone does so, or would need to do so.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
My problem with the article is that it mixes very different points:
1) Math entrance exams in colleges / universities. 2) Math education in colleges / universities. 3) High school math education.
As for for the first two points, I tend to agree that it's useless to both have math exams and teach higher math courses to humanities / history / art students. Actually, at least right now, this isn't the case in Universities here in Austria, and I think also not in Germany (though there might be exceptions? Germans correct me )
As for school education, I think that the article's focus on Algebra is strange. I think the problem is a more fundamental one. I really liked the text linked by Severedevil.
On July 29 2012 21:28 Severedevil wrote: Subjects are often taught stupid. There's gotta be a greater motivation for learning material than "it's on the syllabus" or "it's on the test." However, the problem does not lie in the difficulty of introducing basic abstraction to arithmetic.
The way schools have developed to function during the last decades works very well to teach facts and test whether children can learn them by heart and reproduce them. This process takes a limited amount of time, which can be accommodated for in the curriculum, and every idiot can do it as long as he has the discipline to do it. History, biology, etc. can be nicely organized in lists and facts: Lists of species, lists of years with associated events. One can memorize this stuff without having to understand a lot. I don't say the subjects are mindless, but they can be taught in a way that there is not much intellectual effort involved apart from memorizing.
It's interesting that the subjects where students fail a lot are exactly the ones where this approach is not very well suited: Languages and math. Considering languages, I feel there are people that intuitively spot errors or have some talent to write texts. While exercise helps, I've always had the impression that there were some students that struggled with this at my school, and others that just didn't, with little change over time. Language subjects, however, tend to include some percentage of 'learnable' stuff (let's call it 'fluff') like history, politics, etc., which help the poor sods that cannot write a decent text. They can instead just learn the fluff and still pass.
Considering math, first you have to understand abstract concepts. How long this process takes, differs from student to student. Second, what is tested at school is usually the ability to do manipulations on equations and numbers in a limited amount of time as error-free as possible. Again, I have the impression that this is a skill that can be exercised, but that there are people who have talent for this, and others that don't. However, no fluff to fall back on.
I have the impression that much of the current math / science education tries to emulate the tried-and-tested 'memorize and reproduce' tactics. The subject has been cut down to facts and formulas, as outlined in Seveverdevil's text. Still, it's not learnable in the above sense. Much is taught by 'cooking recipies' to solve specific examples, but even they are hard to apply without a minimum understanding that is hard to be forced in a fixed timeframe. Additionally, school math tests to a huge extent this narrow skill-set of 'mechanical calculation' that is astonishingly different from what you need when you actually work with this stuff. (I am a physicist and I cannot do extended calculations without flipping a sign or dropping some constant for the life of me. But it doesn't matter much thanks to Python, Mathematica & Matlab )
Also, I feel that this misunderstanding of how to teach math and science is a symptom of a deeper misunderstanding that society on average has of what math and science is or is supposed to be. You can schedule memorizing; you cannot schedule understanding. You can't say 'If I think hard for 2 hours about my problem, I have understood it to 75%.
Therefore, I don't think math is the problem. I'd rather argue that the way we teach other subjects is the issue which only rears its ugly head when it fails to convey math to the students. I don't have a fix for this; But I hope there is a better one than dropping inconvenient subjects.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Haha I agree with you in a certain sense, but that this approach to teaching Algebra included singing is more a reflection of my old teacher than the sort of changes in math education I'm talking about. Funnily enough, that same class of individuals turned out some very brilliant math minds, and not a single person I've talked to who has taken Mrs. Flahie's honors algebra class has ever forgotten the quadratic formula The point is that this article is basically supporting a pedagogical signal of defeat, as though the very nature of Algebra somehow makes it incommunicable to some people. And while this may be the case in an extremely remote sense, the teaching of math is something that can still be improved on dramatically enough to improve the classroom experience by leaps and bounds.
I might add that here in Finland we are top 3 PISA in math, not because of how good our best are, but because of how massively better our worst are than the average worst. And our worst (the below average I mean) are terrible slackers. The only conclusion to me is that the teaching process somehow manages to get through all the energy drink and disinterest. It's a feat worthy of the admiring. And perhaps studying.
Singing seems a bit.. extreme, not least because musical talent is even rarer than mathematical talent. My point in all this is that this stuff should be doable in America, unless there are some hidden reasons why math is easy for Finns. One such I guess could be the intuitive vocabulary: We talk about "five-angles", not "pentangles" or whatever.
On July 30 2012 00:15 Brutland wrote: saying that algebra isn't useful to everyday living is almost like saying that oxygen isn't useful for everyday breathing. for instance, i need to go grocery shopping, i need to know how many and at what price my needed items are, then how much money i can spend. thats the heart of algebra (Ax+By...)-Z=0.the problem is most people think of math as this esoteric thing instead of as a way to frame the world and a way to make decisions about concrete ideas. hell, people use calc3 when playing baseball or football (3d analysis and force vector combinations intersecting planes of multiple moving pieces). the problem is that math taught by someone who doesn't understand math is worse than useless. it teaches that math isn't applicable, when in reality, it is how the world works.
Nobody uses algebra when doing shopping. No baseball player does calculus. Just because the situation can be analyzed with algebra or calculus doesn't mean anyone does so, or would need to do so.
Just because jobs don't use the education has ZERO to deal with why you educate. That's an argument for not requiring education at all. That is not an argument against algebra specifically. You can be a perfectly successful citizen while not having a high school diploma. Your options are more limited, but that's how it's supposed to be.
Then you get college students who aren't properly educated in algebra, and they will want to try things like biology and chemistry. Well, then the colleges will have to deal with this piss-poor educational system in algebra. This is shit you should have learned in high school, and we'll be putting way more onus on our colleges. They will be spending more and more time on basic education rather than their actual damn major, because a high school diploma will be completely worthless in terms of what it means in terms of an education.
Lowering standards does not improve education. All it does is make your numbers look better, as more students glaze through the system even if they haven't done any work or have any intelligence whatsoever.
The real problem with our education system is the absolute disrespect our culture gives to teachers. They're paid shit, and now getting blamed for children's bad grades. People think of teaching as an easy job that anyone can do well. Give teachers some damn respect.
On July 29 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote: I understand the basic problem - looking for ways to make education more accessible - but removing a subject because people don't like it or don't do well at it is the wrong way to go about it.
People don't HAVE to be bad at math. Not everybody is going to ace their college calc courses, but basic algebra doesn't really require mental pushups. We are bad at math because we don't care about it, and because we spend most of our lives talking about why we don't care about it.
Think about it. How many times have you asked yourself, or been asked, where you're going to use a math course in the future? We lack a fundamental appreciation for the basic goal of basic math courses: To make ourselves comfortable with numbers, and to gain an appreciation, at a really personal level, for how much they impact our lives.
Maybe you'll never need to use precisely what you learn in high school algebra. But then, you'll probably never need to know why the war of 1812 was fought, either. You can get by without both. But ask anyone why they're learning history, and you've got a decent chance of hearing, "because those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it." I've heard no such similar slogan for mathematics, and that's not math's fault. It's ours.
Those who don't understand numbers in a world that's run by them are destined to flounder.
Imagine if all those people getting tricked into subprime loans had been mathematically literate enough to whip out a pencil and paper when they were presented with the terms of the loan, and figure out that they probably couldn't afford it. Wouldn't have helped everyone (some of them were just too desperate) but I assert that it would have been a good start.
I have to agree with this. Everything from gas prices to the concept of freedom are determined by numbers. If you don't understand the numbers, you cannot make informed disicions for yourself or for the democracy. Numbers (specially in the form of money) govern everything, and you can make someone without understanding of numbers believe Anything you want (or conversely, they can't be made to beleive anything, not even the truth, because they don't understand the numbers). Which, I suppose, is what we're seeing in politics today.
In a way, very few things you learn at school are directly applicable to anything, but I believe language and maths are directly applicable in "everything". Every day you write on forums, read signs, look at your watch, perhaps tip someone, pay your loan, spend money (maybe you have a credit card aswell), etc etc. You should unserstand the power of your wallet and its weaknesses. And many other things. If you were open to this, you'd be less likely to fail math to begin with. If you were good at these things, you'd also be good at general algebra, which is essentially the same. If you are good at algebra, you have every reason to be good at calculus. If you're good at calculus (and numbers in general) you'll have alot more opportunities. Math has always been math, and if you look to the ones passing it, you can see that math isn't the problem. It is just another subject. There were many subjects I hated. Many subjects I still don't see the value in; but that's part of a general education: You don't close any/many doors while you're still young and still don't know which direction you want to go. This is why your first education is so generalized. You could argue thawt you don't *really* need any of it; but then what is left? You could take away math and still function, you could take away history and still function, you could take away religion and still function, you could take away english (the subject, not your tongue) and still function; but imo, only math and language reach a form of objectively global application to everyday lives. And you shouldn't separate algebra from "basic arithmetic operations". If you can't perform algebra, it is because you can't perform the full variety of basic arithmetic operations. Etc, etc. Algebra is simply the 'language' that ties them together, and can allow for a much greater amount of applications if you take slightly more advanced algebraic classes.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations. I would also derive the formula. Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I don't think thats what Micronesia or I are getting at, that memorization is to be frowned upon in the teaching of mathematics is a hotly debated issue among educators, and I wouldn't want to pass judgement either way as there are good justifications behind both sides of the debate (I only know this via a close friend's recent completion of his high school math teaching certification). If it makes you feel any better, we also had a game called "quad crossfire" in which we went head to head against classmates and had to speed solve a difficult problem on the board in front of the class. There was yelling, anger, and even a fight once, but the point is that the unique approach to math education in this scenario greatly improved the learning experience for all involved.
On July 29 2012 22:42 paralleluniverse wrote: Another point of view is the idea of comparative advantage from economics, which basically says that it's better for society if everyone specialized in doing what they're good at and traded for everything else.
So we should make mathematicians better at mathematics, and mechanics better at fixing cars, and when a mathematician's cars brakes down, it is more efficient for him to call the service of a mechanic than for him to understand how to fix a car and do it himself.
Of course, there are some basic knowledge common for most fields, for example mathematicians need to learn to write English, because that's part of being a better mathematician. Advertising executives need to learn basic math and statistics since it's part of the job, etc. But apart from the basic and necessary skills that are required to be proficient in a profession, it's socially optimal for people to specialize. Thus, to the extent that people do not need to know algebra for their jobs, comparative advantage says it's better for them to learn about things that make them better at their jobs instead of algebra.
I think the level of knowledge before it's more beneficial to specialize is set a bit higher than elementary algebra. And besides, if someone is very mathematically inclined but misses out on algebra which he would find super fun, we may miss out on a mathematician.
Let's face it, high school is more of a "do everything, figure out what you want to study at uni", taking such a huge part as algebra away (or well, make it not necessary) is really stupid.
On July 29 2012 23:59 Foolishness wrote: Good article, but I feel that it focused too much on the problem and not on what should be done about it. Is it news to everyone that the USA is far behind in math skills compared to a lot of other countries in the world? I feel as if people have known about this issue for a while but nobody has the answers to why or how to fix it (or the guts to do something about it really).
This also reminded me of A Mathematician's Lament (links in a previous post). Everyone should read that as I feel it addresses the heart of the problem and also lays out the groundwork for how to fix it and how curriculum should change.
Please don't use those lists as a merit of how good a school is. What they go after is funding and publications/citaions. It is compeletely broken in favor for america because of 1) The Legacy system that has been built up in american universities over the years (i.e. rich families dumping money in schools) and 2) The way supervisors in america always get cited when their student publishes a paper.
I agree in theory, that mathematics should not be required to graduate high school.
But if you make math an elective (it obviously can't be cut entirely), where does it end? Most people won't use 95% of what they learned in high school. You'd need to restructure everything and have high school be entirely elective-based, like college is now.
Again, I'm not opposed to this idea in theory, and there are probably a lot of countries who handle their high schools better than the US does, but for us...I don't feel like we have the resources necessary to make it happen. Teachers are underpaid and schools are underfunded. So, teach kids everything and let them use what they want to.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 - 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation. 6) Then I would remark that the procedure in 3) and 4) can be used to solve most quadratics. Alternatively, the formula in 5) can be used. 7) Now ask why this method fails for some quadratics like (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0?
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
I would do that, although I'm not the guy you're responding to. If you're at the point where you're learning about quadratics, you know how to factor, and you know how to solve equations that can be factored. When as a class we ran into something that didn't factor, I would point out "well wait a minute, this ALMOST factors, if there were one extra term over here it would. What if we just put that extra term over there... Can we do that? No, of course not, only if we put it on the other side of the equation as well." BAM. You elicit one or two responses from students, and all of a sudden the entire class can "factor" equations that can't be factored, and they've learned completing the square without an algorithm to be memorized. Once we use it a few times, we do it to ax^2+bx+c=0 to find the roots of any quadratic, and we've learned not only why it's possible for the quadratic formula to exist, but also what it is and why it's pretty neat.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
No other high-school subjects require teachers to tell of applications. In some cases they do. Oh you can write a history book, Oh you can create a battery. But these are not applications a typical teenager is looking for. I guess you could claim that with the quadratic forumula you can create technology. You can create the plans needed to create any building, any piece of technology, any weapon, do anything you want in the field of economics. Anything you can fathom. Create rockets and spaceships. But first you will need this formula. This tool. And many others like it.
His main argument is that algebra is difficult, the whole reasoning is ridiculous. Young people don't necessarily know what they'll want to be doing for the rest of their lives. Removing options by making crucial subjects optional, or not allowing them to try and decide whether they like it is a bad idea. That said, there are plenty of problems with the way math is taught. High school taught me it was difficult and frustrating. Uni taught me it's beautiful and interesting.
A social scientist talking about having insufficient evidence and experimentation to back something up. How hypocritical.
If students in high school or college are having a difficult time in an Algebra class (OR any level of mathematics) its simply because their prerequisites are not strong enough. This problem can be alleviated by going back and mastering the prerequisites. These students also most likely have a study regiment that is not based on understanding, and modifying that regiment to induce understanding while studying will help that student excel in whichever topic they choose.
On July 29 2012 15:16 Integra wrote: Congrats to the author to finally discover that math, like any other subject, have areas which it cannot be applied too and thus has no real value for. What brilliance!
Agreed, just like nearly any subject one learns in high school. Did I need to learn U.S. or European history, or biology? No, but plenty of other people probably did, and knowing a multitude of different academic subjects gave me a wider variety of options when pursuing jobs and majors in higher education. I like being a well-rounded individual who was presented with a wide variety of subjects early on. Not everyone knows what they're going to grow up to be by age ten.
Some people won't use algebra (and certainly not trigonometry), but many people will. Just like any other course you've ever taken. Strange to pick out mathematics in particular though, as it's the language of science, and the United States is quite behind many countries in math and science. We're not #1 so we don't need it? Psh. This article in the OP is just as valid substituting any other course for algebra.
I have a bachelor's in math, a master's in math education, and I'm pursuing my PhD in math education. I plan on teaching math at the high school and university levels, and I've been tutoring all levels of math, from elementary to college (including standardized tests) for many years now. If I wasn't on vacation right now I'd be all over this thread, but sadly, I'm still away for a few more days. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like to reply to this, as I'll most likely miss your thread responses x.x
On July 29 2012 23:53 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
On July 29 2012 23:14 omgimonfire15 wrote: We suck at algebra so we should get rid of it? Good logic. This just sounds like a ploy to make us seem smarter than we actually are. Its not about numbers and equations, its about critical thinking and showing that you are able to do something even when you don't like it. As stated numerous times, in many jobs, actually algebra is useless, but it shows employers that this guy can get through something most people hate, work hard, and think critically. In college, chemistry is mandatory, but the ones who make it through with good grades display their work ethic and set of priorities.
1) Nobody is saying it should be removed -- most are saying it should be something that's more optional or taught in a different way so students struggling can understand it or get something useful out of it.
2) Chemistry displaying work ethic and priority making is too black and white of thinking. I failed college algebra three times -- I have a great mathematical learning disability. I can't even do basic math. I miss 7+6 half the time. I had several private tutors and I studied much harder than those that were lazy and smoothly sailed by -- yet I still failed. I was literally making grades below those that were barely trying, yet many were making A's and B's.
I don't think it's that I'm completely stupid -- I simply have a learning disability when it comes to using numbers. So what happens to people like me? It's not because I didn't have priorities set. It's not because I displayed a poor work ethic. It's because of an innate problem with mathematics that I will always have (and have had since I started school as a wee child). For me, it's impossible to have any career related to math because I simply can not understand the type of abstract reasoning it presents.
So what use is a mathematics course being mandatory for me? I do fine in almost every single subject. My report cards in college literally read A A B F, and you can guess what I was failing every semester (and having to repeat). I took statistics three times too. It's not that I can't be taught and learn from schooling, it's that I'm absolutely terrible in one department of reasoning -- mathematics. I feel that some courses should be optional for this very reason, so people like me stand a chance at becoming educated without having to suffer through the ordeals of major learning issues like I have. So what am I to do -- not be able to pass regular schooling to get to something more specific (and unrelated) to math just because I can't pass one subject?
Generally if someone who otherwise performs well in school has a single area where they consistently fail or do very poorly compared to their other subjects there is a learning disability present, though possibly undiagnosed. he grades you posted look like you might possibly have dyscalculia, which is basically dyslexia for maths. Someone should have noticed that shortly after it became a big problem, and you very probably should have been given extra help in maths in school and waivers from requirements in college. I'm sorry that no-one did. Did you get through in the end?
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
I would like to see you attempt to teach completing the square to an actual class of average kids... because if you can pull that off well then your plan might work regarding the quadratic formula (I'm not confident), but we have gone away from the topic of singing to teach something.
In my own opinion, learning math teaches us abstractive thinking.
Being able to manipulate with abstractive ideas and applying them to different situations (which might or might not be abstractive as well) is the only thing, that separates us from the animals. Put it another way - abstractive thinking is the sole tool we use as species to progress.
Hence, teaching math is the only way for us to advance and survive as species.
Could teaching higher provisions of math be targeted better? I am absolutely positive it can.
Do we have to stop teaching math - to myself the answer can be only one - we shouldn't.
--- I have graduated with math and never really had to use in work/real life. I would have made it through in life with simple 5 grade stuff, but the skills I learned I find irreplaceable.
On July 29 2012 23:59 farvacola wrote: [quote] I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
On July 29 2012 23:51 farvacola wrote: I'm not exactly sure why the article makes the connection between flawed primary/secondary school math education and a need to remove certain educational requirements; it would make sense, at least to me, to instead focus on better teaching methodologies, as algebra and many of the "hard" areas of study have been taught in relatively the same manner for many, many years now. As posters above are explaining, I certainly think that Algebra ought to be requisite, as it lends itself to so many endeavors in life, and perhaps the key in improving its teaching is a more vocational or everyday focus in application, and a change from the standard drudgery of problem sets and timed tests. I'm thinking on my own honors math education, where in 8th grade we learned the quadratic formula via song and were required to sing it at the door one day in order to get into class. Simple little changes in teaching technique can do wonders for making subjects such as math more palatable. As I see it, there are simply too many inherent problems in putting forth entire populations of people who are unable to the basic algebraic underpinnings of the economy and their own personal finances.
Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations. I would also derive the formula. Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I don't think thats what Micronesia or I are getting at, that memorization is to be frowned upon in the teaching of mathematics is a hotly debated issue among educators, and I wouldn't want to pass judgement either way as there are good justifications behind both sides of the debate (I only know this via a close friend's recent completion of his high school math teaching certification). If it makes you feel any better, we also had a game called "quad crossfire" in which we went head to head against classmates and had to speed solve a difficult problem on the board in front of the class. There was yelling, anger, and even a fight once, but the point is that the unique approach to math education in this scenario greatly improved the learning experience for all involved.
"Memorizing formulae has zero educational value." False.
It works EXACTLY as described above. You look it up enough times, you use it enough times, you remember it.
Please bear in mind that when doing education the most important is always to stick to what appears to work.
I've always thought that Lockhart's Lament is a rather lamentable lament. Sure it would be fun to tailor all mathematical education to the personal needs of a future mathematician. If only every person was to be a mathematician.
On July 30 2012 00:15 Brutland wrote: saying that algebra isn't useful to everyday living is almost like saying that oxygen isn't useful for everyday breathing. for instance, i need to go grocery shopping, i need to know how many and at what price my needed items are, then how much money i can spend. thats the heart of algebra (Ax+By...)-Z=0.the problem is most people think of math as this esoteric thing instead of as a way to frame the world and a way to make decisions about concrete ideas. hell, people use calc3 when playing baseball or football (3d analysis and force vector combinations intersecting planes of multiple moving pieces). the problem is that math taught by someone who doesn't understand math is worse than useless. it teaches that math isn't applicable, when in reality, it is how the world works.
Nobody uses algebra when doing shopping. No baseball player does calculus. Just because the situation can be analyzed with algebra or calculus doesn't mean anyone does so, or would need to do so.
i guess the real divide comes down to, do you want to be told just what to do? or would you like to be able to decide the best reaction for yourself? if all you want to be in life is someone else's tool, go ahead, don't think about it.
On July 29 2012 23:53 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
I would like to see you attempt to teach completing the square to an actual class of average kids... because if you can pull that off well then your plan might work regarding the quadratic formula (I'm not confident), but we have gone away from the topic of singing to teach something.
It's OK 90% of the thread is still on topic.
Obviously the students should have some proficiency in symbolic manipulation before learning how to solve quadratics. But I fail to see your point. Do you have a better method?
On July 29 2012 23:59 farvacola wrote: [quote] I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
I added some to my post. Point being that as a tool, its application is limitless. Just like your screwdriver. You can use it to erect your shower, create a toy, or to build a car. First you must learn to use it.
For instance, I've used the quadratic formula too many times to count. Not simply to use it, but to solve other problems. It naturally arises in alot of problems. And if not this specific formula, then some other. There's always a tool, like this formula, that has to be applied in any problem in soooo many fields. By not learning maths you'll be limited. Imo math and language are the most important subjects to learn from the get-go. Any other subject you can potentially read upon on your own if you have holes. You can still progress in them. But with math it is very difficult to progress in any direction if you don't have the entire foundation. And language is paramount to everything.
On July 30 2012 00:03 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
On July 30 2012 00:03 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
I added some to my post. Point being that as a tool, its application is limitless. Just like your screwdriver. You can use it to erect your shower, create a toy, or to build a car. First you must learn to use it.
You haven't given any specific applications, just written fluff.
For example, an application of the Central Limit Theorem is that it allows us to approximate the standard error of an opinion poll as sqrt(p(1-p)/n).
On July 29 2012 23:53 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Are you saying that's good or bad?
I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
I would like to see you attempt to teach completing the square to an actual class of average kids... because if you can pull that off well then your plan might work regarding the quadratic formula (I'm not confident), but we have gone away from the topic of singing to teach something.
I have done that. If you know what you are doing it is not to hard to teach high school students how to derive the quadratic formula.
1. They can already solve z^2 = C , where C is a positive real. 2. ax^2 + bx + c = 0 implies that a(x^2+b/a*x+c/a) = 0. 3. put p = b/a and q = c/a 4. Use (x+y)^2 = x^2 +2xy+y^2 to show that (x+p/2)^2 = x^2+px+p^2/4 (yes they can solve this on their own as an exercise) 5. x^2 + px = (x+p/2)^2-p^2/4 so that x^2+px+q= (x+p/2)^2 - p^2/4 +q = 0 and then (x+p/2)^2 = p^2/4-q 6. show that this is the same as 1. with z=x+p/2 and p^2/4-q=C
On July 30 2012 00:06 micronesia wrote: [quote] Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing so on their career potential?
On July 30 2012 00:45 Mortality wrote: Why do I need to learn ancient history? Why do I need to learn foreign languages? Why do I need to learn how to structure a 5 paragraph essay?
Maybe there are a lot of people who finds these to be "more valuable" tools in their daily lives, but in my own life I find algebra more useful.
I don't support the mandatory teaching of ancient history or foreign languages, but English is important because people write in English. And it is preferable to the reader that they write in paragraphs.
On July 30 2012 00:06 micronesia wrote: [quote] Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
Also any person designing firework shows or pyrotechnics. And you only asked for a non-contrived example, not a day-to-day one.
On July 30 2012 00:06 micronesia wrote: [quote] Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
Name a single thing in highschool that is applicable to everyone, not related to language. You can say this about everything. About every tool. Not everyone will use them. And that specific formula has a wide group of applications: In it's current form it only speaks of position. But where the formula was derived from, you will see that as a tool, its applications are endless. This is simply the version of it that is cited in physics books.
On July 30 2012 00:10 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
If math requirements get dumbed down, I want English, Science, and History also dumbed down...
I just read 90% of the article, and stopped in disgust at the ideas given. "If math isn't integral in the job, just lower it"... well in Computer Science (at least of what I've experienced), not many other courses BESIDES math are necessary... so does that mean we should only require math for CS students?
On July 29 2012 23:14 omgimonfire15 wrote: We suck at algebra so we should get rid of it? Good logic. This just sounds like a ploy to make us seem smarter than we actually are. Its not about numbers and equations, its about critical thinking and showing that you are able to do something even when you don't like it. As stated numerous times, in many jobs, actually algebra is useless, but it shows employers that this guy can get through something most people hate, work hard, and think critically. In college, chemistry is mandatory, but the ones who make it through with good grades display their work ethic and set of priorities.
1) Nobody is saying it should be removed -- most are saying it should be something that's more optional or taught in a different way so students struggling can understand it or get something useful out of it.
2) Chemistry displaying work ethic and priority making is too black and white of thinking. I failed college algebra three times -- I have a great mathematical learning disability. I can't even do basic math. I miss 7+6 half the time. I had several private tutors and I studied much harder than those that were lazy and smoothly sailed by -- yet I still failed. I was literally making grades below those that were barely trying, yet many were making A's and B's.
I don't think it's that I'm completely stupid -- I simply have a learning disability when it comes to using numbers. So what happens to people like me? It's not because I didn't have priorities set. It's not because I displayed a poor work ethic. It's because of an innate problem with mathematics that I will always have (and have had since I started school as a wee child). For me, it's impossible to have any career related to math because I simply can not understand the type of abstract reasoning it presents.
So what use is a mathematics course being mandatory for me? I do fine in almost every single subject. My report cards in college literally read A A B F, and you can guess what I was failing every semester (and having to repeat). I took statistics three times too. It's not that I can't be taught and learn from schooling, it's that I'm absolutely terrible in one department of reasoning -- mathematics. I feel that some courses should be optional for this very reason, so people like me stand a chance at becoming educated without having to suffer through the ordeals of major learning issues like I have. So what am I to do -- not be able to pass regular schooling to get to something more specific (and unrelated) to math just because I can't pass one subject?
Generally if someone who otherwise performs well in school has a single area where they consistently fail or do very poorly compared to their other subjects there is a learning disability present, though possibly undiagnosed. he grades you posted look like you might possibly have dyscalculia, which is basically dyslexia for maths. Someone should have noticed that shortly after it became a big problem, and you very probably should have been given extra help in maths in school and waivers from requirements in college. I'm sorry that no-one did. Did you get through in the end?
Yeah, I passed college algebra and statistics after many failures. I dropped out of high school solely because I had to retake physics and I couldn't possibly do it. I was never diagnosed with discalculia, but I've been making D grades (considered passing in elementary/middle) so it was never brought up as an issue. It's later in life that it's really presenting a struggle to me.
I'm done with math classes forever though, seeing as how I finally managed to make a C in them for college. It was the biggest relief I've felt in my life on the day I received a passing grade for college statistics. I had taken over 8 courses for 3 math classes in college (I had to repeat intermediate algebra, which is basically pre-algebra in high school). It was really a big struggle for me.
On July 30 2012 00:18 micronesia wrote: [quote] How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
[quote]You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
[quote]Back to my first question of the current post.
[quote]Almost completely agree with you.
[quote] I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
The thing is, most people do not understand what the Maths that they are taught is used for. Say you want to be an Actuary or Accountant, your doing the maths course and have to do loads of stuff on the heat equation, youll have no idea why and probably think its a waste of time. Then bam! you find out its used to price options on the stock market.
To get to high level maths, you need to be doing low level maths first. If its not mandatory you have to know what you want to do by the age of like 15 which is clearly ridiculous to expect.
"But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar." - Its because they are also potential mathematicians, they might just not know it. What it comes down to is that in todays world, you have to give people more chance of becoming mathematicians than philosophers as they are just far more important.
If all the worlds philosophers disappeared today, nothing really changes. If its the mathematicians, the world crumbles.
So while its clear it should be mandatory, I agree with less memorizing and more understanding. However, school systems should not be forced to set the bar low enough for everyone to pass. As a rule of thumb, if everyone passes, it was too easy
On July 30 2012 00:18 micronesia wrote: [quote] How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
[quote]You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
[quote]Back to my first question of the current post.
[quote]Almost completely agree with you.
[quote] I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
This is the case for ANY highschool subject. Math is not unique in this.
If you allow it for math, you should allow it for other subjects.
What needs to be the focus is how to make math passable. It needs to be changed to allow more students to pass math. Some limitations based on some choices. Not remove algebra alltogether; but maybe remove something else so you have more time on algebra. Change the curriculum slightly, to make a secondary, but yet general math education possible. Making the entire subject optional is the same as making any other subject entirely optional. Math takes no presedence in this. If anything, math is the second most useful subject you'll learn in school, next to language. Tailoring it slightly to those who realize they have no interest in certain career choices can be a good thing. But algebra is still not what you want to cut out. The implications reach further than the students know, and seemingly further than you realize aswell?
On July 29 2012 23:14 omgimonfire15 wrote: We suck at algebra so we should get rid of it? Good logic. This just sounds like a ploy to make us seem smarter than we actually are. Its not about numbers and equations, its about critical thinking and showing that you are able to do something even when you don't like it. As stated numerous times, in many jobs, actually algebra is useless, but it shows employers that this guy can get through something most people hate, work hard, and think critically. In college, chemistry is mandatory, but the ones who make it through with good grades display their work ethic and set of priorities.
1) Nobody is saying it should be removed -- most are saying it should be something that's more optional or taught in a different way so students struggling can understand it or get something useful out of it.
2) Chemistry displaying work ethic and priority making is too black and white of thinking. I failed college algebra three times -- I have a great mathematical learning disability. I can't even do basic math. I miss 7+6 half the time. I had several private tutors and I studied much harder than those that were lazy and smoothly sailed by -- yet I still failed. I was literally making grades below those that were barely trying, yet many were making A's and B's.
I don't think it's that I'm completely stupid -- I simply have a learning disability when it comes to using numbers. So what happens to people like me? It's not because I didn't have priorities set. It's not because I displayed a poor work ethic. It's because of an innate problem with mathematics that I will always have (and have had since I started school as a wee child). For me, it's impossible to have any career related to math because I simply can not understand the type of abstract reasoning it presents.
So what use is a mathematics course being mandatory for me? I do fine in almost every single subject. My report cards in college literally read A A B F, and you can guess what I was failing every semester (and having to repeat). I took statistics three times too. It's not that I can't be taught and learn from schooling, it's that I'm absolutely terrible in one department of reasoning -- mathematics. I feel that some courses should be optional for this very reason, so people like me stand a chance at becoming educated without having to suffer through the ordeals of major learning issues like I have. So what am I to do -- not be able to pass regular schooling to get to something more specific (and unrelated) to math just because I can't pass one subject?
Generally if someone who otherwise performs well in school has a single area where they consistently fail or do very poorly compared to their other subjects there is a learning disability present, though possibly undiagnosed. he grades you posted look like you might possibly have dyscalculia, which is basically dyslexia for maths. Someone should have noticed that shortly after it became a big problem, and you very probably should have been given extra help in maths in school and waivers from requirements in college. I'm sorry that no-one did. Did you get through in the end?
Yeah, I passed college algebra and statistics after many failures. I dropped out of high school solely because I had to retake physics and I couldn't possibly do it. I was never diagnosed with discalculia, but I've been making D grades (considered passing in elementary/middle) so it was never brought up as an issue. It's later in life that it's really presenting a struggle to me.
I'm done with math classes forever though, seeing as how I finally managed to make a C in them for college. It was the biggest relief I've felt in my life on the day I received a passing grade for college statistics. I had taken over 8 courses for 3 math classes in college (I had to repeat intermediate algebra, which is basically pre-algebra in high school). It was really a big struggle for me.
On July 30 2012 00:19 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
I still fail to see how anybody can fail high school algebra. I'm not even a math person, but as long as you put in a bit of effort algebra is all pretty simple at that level.
As far as the argument for "Well people do not need to use it, so why teach it?" goes, teaching it at a young age gives options. Chemistry, biology, modern literature, ancient literature, various social sciences; all of those things are only going to be used by some of the people who learn them. But at the age of 14 or 15, the student most likely does not know what they will be doing in five, ten, fifteen, or more years, so we should not say "Ok, Algebra for you, literature for you, and science for you!"
High school is to prepare people not only for further education but also to prepare them with tools which they can use later in their life. Having a high school diploma should mean something, but if we are only going to teach people what they need to know, then it is a fairly worthless certificate. Teaching something like algebra improves problem solving as well as mathematical abilities. A person who can solve algebra problems also can probably solve other logic-based problems better than a person who has not learned algebra, even if there is no actual algebra involved.
On July 29 2012 15:03 Sinensis wrote: People failing Algebra math have never heard of Wolfram Alpha.
On July 30 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote: [quote] Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
It sure is, at least in my state. I needed to take a math class grades 9-12. It was a bit of a strange curriculum admittedly, since it was "integrated math" (not the usual Alegbra I, Geometry, Alegbra II, Trig) path of most schools, but we still had options: discrete math, statistics, AP calculus AB and BC, AP stat, college algebra. You could take stat and college algebra if you wanted an "easier" path, or take the APs if you wanted the harder path.
On July 30 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote: [quote] Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
I know at my high school you have to have 4 years of math, but you can count Chemistry as one of them. I would assume it varies from school district, but as far as I know math is generally needed even after 10th grade.
On July 30 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote: [quote] Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
This depends on the state curriculum and the particular school district one is in. At my school, math wasn't hard tied to a grade level, and one had to only complete Algebra 2 by their senior year. Others may require pre-calc or only Algebra 1/Geometry. And as to your second questions, sadly diversity in class structure is a luxury many cash-strapped districts cannot afford.
On July 29 2012 23:59 farvacola wrote: [quote] I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
I would like to see you attempt to teach completing the square to an actual class of average kids... because if you can pull that off well then your plan might work regarding the quadratic formula (I'm not confident), but we have gone away from the topic of singing to teach something.
I have done that. If you know what you are doing it is not to hard to teach high school students how to derive the quadratic formula.
1. They can already solve z^2 = C , where C is a positive real. 2. ax^2 + bx + c = 0 implies that a(x^2+b/a*x+c/a) = 0. 3. put p = b/a and q = c/a 4. Use (x+y)^2 = x^2 +2xy+y^2 to show that (x+p/2)^2 = x^2+px+p^2/4 (yes they can solve this on their own as an exercise) 5. x^2 + px = (x+p/2)^2-p^2/4 so that x^2+px+q= (x+p/2)^2 - p^2/4 +q = 0 and then (x+p/2)^2 = p^2/4-q 6. show that this is the same as 1. with z=x+p/2 and p^2/4-q=C
Oh, very good. I was starting wonder whether I would be able to prove that.
On topic: Yes, I remember being taught that in the first year of high school. As I recall it, it wasn't difficult to understand the proof, but replicating it individually would have been out of the question (and is out of the question for most adult-mathematicians as well I would presume, unless they recall step 3. somehow).
Showing the proof, which always happened with whatever was on the menu, wasn't too much of a hassle and it certainly expanded our understanding of how mathematics worked in general. The actual learning process would begin with memorization and repetition.
A little bit of thread summary:
I think we are in agreement that (1) mathematics needs better and more teaching rather than policy-makers lifting their hands up in surrender. Also, we are essentially in agreement that (2) the original author ought to make his case against mathematics more specific, seeing as how (3) the principle of comparative advantage does not hold. Lastly (4) the original authors complaint that mathematics leads to too many dropouts cannot be remedied by dropping mathematics as a subject, as this may in the long run have dire ramifications on American excellence in hard sciences.
On July 30 2012 00:57 Squigly wrote: The thing is, most people do not understand what the Maths that they are taught is used for. Say you want to be an Actuary or Accountant, your doing the maths course and have to do loads of stuff on the heat equation, youll have no idea why and probably think its a waste of time. Then bam! you find out its used to price options on the stock market.
To get to high level maths, you need to be doing low level maths first. If its not mandatory you have to know what you want to do by the age of like 15 which is clearly ridiculous to expect.
"But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar." - Its because they are also potential mathematicians, they might just not know it. What it comes down to is that in todays world, you have to give people more chance of becoming mathematicians than philosophers as they are just far more important.
If all the worlds philosophers disappeared today, nothing really changes. If its the mathematicians, the world crumbles.
So while its clear it should be mandatory, I agree with less memorizing and more understanding. However, school systems should not be forced to set the bar low enough for everyone to pass. As a rule of thumb, if everyone passes, it was too easy
The Black-Scholes equation is one of the most beautiful pieces of mathematics. When people talk about mathematical beauty, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
It's derived by combining price neutral pricing, measure theory, probability theory, stochastic differential equations, Ito calculus, partial differential equations, and can be solved by transforming it into the heat equation (as you've said) and using Fourier series.
It combines so many areas of analysis in such a mathematically elegant and beautiful way.
Unfortunately, it's absolutely bullshit and partly caused the global financial crisis.
Most people could find a use for algebra almost every day. I guess you don't need it if you are a floutist - but it sure as hell helps to know - especially if you ever plan on investing money or like building something. I'm not entirely sure whats so difficult about it in the first place?
On July 30 2012 00:57 Squigly wrote: The thing is, most people do not understand what the Maths that they are taught is used for. Say you want to be an Actuary or Accountant, your doing the maths course and have to do loads of stuff on the heat equation, youll have no idea why and probably think its a waste of time. Then bam! you find out its used to price options on the stock market.
To get to high level maths, you need to be doing low level maths first. If its not mandatory you have to know what you want to do by the age of like 15 which is clearly ridiculous to expect.
"But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar." - Its because they are also potential mathematicians, they might just not know it. What it comes down to is that in todays world, you have to give people more chance of becoming mathematicians than philosophers as they are just far more important.
If all the worlds philosophers disappeared today, nothing really changes. If its the mathematicians, the world crumbles.
So while its clear it should be mandatory, I agree with less memorizing and more understanding. However, school systems should not be forced to set the bar low enough for everyone to pass. As a rule of thumb, if everyone passes, it was too easy
The Black-Scholes equation is one of the most beautiful pieces of mathematics. When people talk about mathematical beauty, that's the first thing that comes to my mind.
It combines price neutral pricing, measure theory, stochastic differential equations, partial differential equations, and can be solved by transforming it into the heat equation (as you've said) and using Fourier series.
It combines so many areas of analysis in such a mathematically elegant and beautiful way.
Unfortunately, it absolutely bullshit and partly caused the global financial crisis.
Whether or not it did cause the massive issues (not going to debate, not the time or place), it still shows how you need maths in a job which is crucial to the economy. People can only get there if you put them on the right path to start with.
Sure they may decide to go do an Arts degree instead, but the important thing is that you never took the option away.
On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote: [quote] position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Then the convention I stated, putting x=1 gives 4, under the usual convention it's 3, but that's because 2 different concepts are written. The concept that my example expresses is 2(x+1), so (2x)+1 would be an incorrect translation of the concept -- a misreading.
Why are you arguing about notation?
Because some people think they are sooooo smart because they memorized that the usual convention is to do multiplication before addition, and that our educational system has failed because most people have failed to remember this arbitrary convention.
It reflects the sad state of education that people are obsessively fixated on written notation to prove that people are stupid, instead of the understanding of actual mathematical concepts.
From reading your posts, it makes it seem like your knowledge of mathematics is far more vast then mine. While I am willing to admit this, I do believe my general graps of mathematical concepts is pretty fair.
With this being said, BEDMAS (PEMDAS) is a method of interpreting the basic language of mathematics. Although I've never been told or explained this by any teacher, the reason is because these are the levels of interactions with regards to mathematics. I've come to understand this as a basic rule:
Addition and subtraction are mathematical parrallels - the same numerical process. Multiplication and Division are mathetmatical parrallels - the same numerical process. Exponents /Square Roots are mathetmatical parrallels...
Brackets are a mathematical language restriction - they indicate that the problem requires you to deal with them first. They indicate importance, and without brackets in more complicated equations it would be too difficult to interpret the language and it would be too ambigious to the solver. They are a necessicity for communication of math, but not a necessicity of math in and of itself.
All of the above are related to addition/subtraction at a very basic, expanded level.
Multiplication is multiple additions. 4x5 for example, is saying you have added 4 a total of 5 times.
Division is multiple subtractions. 20/5 for examples says you have equally subtracted from 20 a total 5 times.
Exponents is multiple sets of multiplication. This is interesting in that it relates to sequencing, but implies addition as well. For example 4^3 expanded in terms of multiplication is 4x4x4 or rather (4)x(4x4). Broken down further using multiplication/addition logic (4)x(16), or the long hang process 4+4+4... You get the picture. (Brackets used to demonstrate the concept I am conveying) Basic math concepts always break down to the basic functions of addition, and it's reverse process, subtraction.
This is why BEDMAS must be used. Essentially you are breaking down the equation into its most basic forms as I did above to break it down into the common language of addition/subtraction. BEDMAS is not just an interpretation of math at a basic level, it is a simplified way of mainstreaming the interaction of math in and of itself.
That being said, I can understand why algebra is being considered to be removed from school. I never struggled with math in school, and haven't had to use anything outside of basic algebra for med calcs in University either. High school is meant to provide you with general knowledge in many different areas so when the time comes to specialize (if you want to) you have the basic skills to do it. In this manner, I believe basic algebra is necessary. I think the failures of the education system indicate that the cirriculum may need to be changed, but it also indicates that there is a failure somewhere along the line that needs to be solved.
IF ONLY THERE WERE SOME SORT OF MATHEMATICAL WAY TO ANALYZE WHERE THIS FAILURE IS COMING FROM...
On July 30 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote: [quote] Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
Sorry to press the issue, but since I answered your question, can you answer mine?
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14. Added, sometimes even earlier. I started algebra in 7th grade. I didn't enjoy it then, but I'm an electrical engineer now. You cannot put that kind of decision onto children.
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
Really?
I have coworkers that think 3 oz (3 ounces) is 0.18 lbs, when it's actually 0.1875, meaning we should be rounding to 0.19 when making...deli sandwiches. When I have to fight my manager over this, part of me dies inside, especially given we've had the discussion numerous times. Even though I sort of have my manager on board, at least enough not to fight me about it, there's no way we're getting the signs posted that say 3 oz = .18 lbs changed, it would cause utter havoc for the rest of our coworkers, and they'd be mad at the person who caused this change.
People are irrationally afraid of math, we need attitudes towards math to change. This article's evidence of people getting worse at algebra over time indicates, imo, people are getting lazier and more indolent over time. I believe this is mostly the fault of students/culture telling them math is their enemy.
On July 29 2012 16:59 ]343[ wrote: Anyway, more on topic: this (admittedly over-referenced) article by Lockhart has much to say on this issue. The problem isn't that algebra is unnecessary, but that the way it (and everything up to intro undergraduate math) is taught in the US turns people off.
This article is really good and gives a picture of how Math is taught in the US.
On July 30 2012 00:29 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
I know at my high school you have to have 4 years of math, but you can count Chemistry as one of them. I would assume it varies from school district, but as far as I know math is generally needed even after 10th grade.
Yeah, a lot of high schools just require x "years" of math, and a lot of them have other things that can count as a math credit. In my high school there was the remedial levels -> Math A -> Math AB -> Math B/pre-cal -> calculus. I only had to take math A and AB, because I took all of the programming classes my school offered and those transferred over. But really, they have such a horrible labeling system lol.
Not that I disliked math, but I much preferred my senior year to be me playing ping pong in the senior cafeteria for more than half of the day, so I overloaded my previous years in a similar manner for other classes.
On July 30 2012 00:29 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
There are none? Math is a tool, tools have applications. Trust me. But you don't need to present it in any other way than simply a tool.
I can think of many applications of math. But I cannot think of any applications of the quadratic equation that isn't contrived.
Rocket science.
The x = .5ut + at^2 formula? As if anyone would actually need to calculate the time it takes for a rocket to travel x meters (unless you work at NASA, where you'd probably majored in math or physics anyway).
I'm only quoting this because it's a question that's been directed at you that you've dodged twice - how do you expect a 13-15 year old to make an informed decision about whether they want to learn algebra? Do you think they have the understanding of the consequences of not doing on their career potential?
Edit - wording
Before electives, they can be given a pep talk on careers. If they want to keep the option open then they should continue with math, otherwise drop it.
I do admit there is a risk of bad decisions if it's done too early.
You're still putting an incredibly difficult decision with life-long implications on an adolescent mind, and hoping that a "pep talk" will help them choose what's best for them. How many times do people change their major in college, and now we're asking what we consider to be children, to choose what their path will be?
Imo currently, the decision is made at the right time - when they're adults. You have been given all the tools you need to go to college and figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life, and if you change your mind, you aren't completely screwed because of a decision you made when you were 14.
Is math still compulsory in the US after grade 10? And are there different levels of math? Like easier and harder versions?
It sure is, at least in my state. I needed to take a math class grades 9-12. It was a bit of a strange curriculum admittedly, since it was "integrated math" (not the usual Alegbra I, Geometry, Alegbra II, Trig) path of most schools, but we still had options: discrete math, statistics, AP calculus AB and BC, AP stat, college algebra. You could take stat and college algebra if you wanted an "easier" path, or take the APs if you wanted the harder path.
Sounds quite convoluted. In Australia (NSW at least), there's just math, it's not separated into algebra and geometry because both subjects are math. There's 3 levels: noob, easy, and normal (not these words precisely). And in year 11 and 12, math is optional. There's again 3 levels in year 11, but a 4th level in year 12 which is the hardest level.
On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Then the convention I stated, putting x=1 gives 4, under the usual convention it's 3, but that's because 2 different concepts are written. The concept that my example expresses is 2(x+1), so (2x)+1 would be an incorrect translation of the concept -- a misreading.
Why are you arguing about notation?
Because some people think they are sooooo smart because they memorized that the usual convention is to do multiplication before addition, and that our educational system has failed because most people have failed to remember this arbitrary convention.
It reflects the sad state of education that people are obsessively fixated on written notation to prove that people are stupid, instead of the understanding of actual mathematical concepts.
From reading your posts, it makes it seem like your knowledge of mathematics is far more vast then mine. While I am willing to admit this, I do believe my general graps of mathematical concepts is pretty fair.
With this being said, BEDMAS (PEMDAS) is a method of interpreting the basic language of mathematics. Although I've never been told or explained this by any teacher, the reason is because these are the levels of interactions with regards to mathematics. I've come to understand this as a basic rule:
Addition and subtraction are mathematical parrallels - the same numerical process. Multiplication and Division are mathetmatical parrallels - the same numerical process. Exponents /Square Roots are mathetmatical parrallels...
Brackets are a mathematical language restriction - they indicate that the problem requires you to deal with them first. They indicate importance, and without brackets in more complicated equations it would be too difficult to interpret the language and it would be too ambigious to the solver. They are a necessicity for communication of math, but not a necessicity of math in and of itself.
All of the above are related to addition/subtraction at a very basic, expanded level.
Multiplication is multiple additions. 4x5 for example, is saying you have added 4 a total of 5 times.
Division is multiple subtractions. 20/5 for examples says you have equally subtracted from 20 a total 5 times.
Exponents is multiple sets of multiplication. This is interesting in that it relates to sequencing, but implies addition as well. For example 4^3 expanded in terms of multiplication is 4x4x4 or rather (4)x(4x4). Broken down further using multiplication/addition logic (4)x(16), or the long hang process 4+4+4... You get the picture. (Brackets used to demonstrate the concept I am conveying) Basic math concepts always break down to the basic functions of addition, and it's reverse process, subtraction.
This is why BEDMAS must be used. Essentially you are breaking down the equation into its most basic forms as I did above to break it down into the common language of addition/subtraction. BEDMAS is not just an interpretation of math at a basic level, it is a simplified way of mainstreaming the interaction of math in and of itself.
That being said, I can understand why algebra is being considered to be removed from school. I never struggled with math in school, and haven't had to use anything outside of basic algebra for med calcs in University either. High school is meant to provide you with general knowledge in many different areas so when the time comes to specialize (if you want to) you have the basic skills to do it. In this manner, I believe basic algebra is necessary. I think the failures of the education system indicate that the cirriculum may need to be changed, but it also indicates that there is a failure somewhere along the line that needs to be solved.
IF ONLY THERE WERE SOME SORT OF MATHEMATICAL WAY TO ANALYZE WHERE THIS FAILURE IS COMING FROM...
[edit] Not having auto-correct sucks.
I don't want to go over this again. So let this me a final summary on the issue.
The order: 1. exponentiation. 2. multiplication/division 3. addition/subtraction is an arbitrary convention that people have agreed to.
There is no reason that it can't instead be: 1. addition/subtraction 2. exponentiation. 3. multiplication/division.
You're argument that it has to be the first way because multiplication is repeated addition is irrelevant. Multiplication can still be repeated addition (for integers) even if the convention was changed. E.g. If we interpret 2+3*3 to mean that (2+3)*3 because addition is first, then multiplication is still repeated addition because the expression is equal to (2+3)+(2+3)+(2+3). And this is a different concept to 2+(3*3), which is why they aren't equal. But once you've agreed on a convention and translated everything to using your invented order of operation convention, everything in math that is currently true is still true. BIDMAS is not a theorem. It's a convention.
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Yes this is a lot more complicated and highly technical, that's why it's not taught outside of university level calculus. It's also less intuitive, unless you know a lot of math. But thinking of multiplication as repeated addition is not a good way to think about higher mathematics.
Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
Can't believe this thread is still going. Everyone who believes algebra is not necessary to be taught clearly needs to be stripped of any opportunity to educate children. There is just no questioning the importance of mathematics. If you don't get it, fine, but spare other people (and especially children) your misinformed opinion.
On July 29 2012 16:13 dudeman001 wrote: [quote] I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
What order you solve an equation in is irrelevant.
Consider 2x+1 = 0, under the convention that addition happens before multiplication.
So we want to solve 2(x+1)=0, you can divide by 2 and subtract 1 from both sides to get x=-1. Or you can expand to get 2x+2=0, subtract 2 and divide by 2 to get x=-1.
(9 + 3)^2 If you dont use pemdas you could come to the conclusion of 9^2 + 3^2, which is entirely different than 12^2. You could foil it out, but foil uses the same principles of pemdas in that you must know it to use it.
Also, if you actually plug a number into your equation you could arrive at the conclusion of: let x = 1 2(1 + 1) = 4 or 2(1) + 1 = 3 How do you know where the brackets go?
Everyone agrees that we do brackets first, so this isn't a problem. But suppose not, and that someone insists that (9+3)^2 = 9^2 + 3^2, then the difference between this and (9+3)*(9+3) is purely convention. You're expressing different concepts.
The concept of 9+3, then take the result and square it, is the same. It's like how different languages express the same concepts in different words. But English is not "more correct" than French.
Then the convention I stated, putting x=1 gives 4, under the usual convention it's 3, but that's because 2 different concepts are written. The concept that my example expresses is 2(x+1), so (2x)+1 would be an incorrect translation of the concept -- a misreading.
Why are you arguing about notation?
Because some people think they are sooooo smart because they memorized that the usual convention is to do multiplication before addition, and that our educational system has failed because most people have failed to remember this arbitrary convention.
It reflects the sad state of education that people are obsessively fixated on written notation to prove that people are stupid, instead of the understanding of actual mathematical concepts.
From reading your posts, it makes it seem like your knowledge of mathematics is far more vast then mine. While I am willing to admit this, I do believe my general graps of mathematical concepts is pretty fair.
With this being said, BEDMAS (PEMDAS) is a method of interpreting the basic language of mathematics. Although I've never been told or explained this by any teacher, the reason is because these are the levels of interactions with regards to mathematics. I've come to understand this as a basic rule:
Addition and subtraction are mathematical parrallels - the same numerical process. Multiplication and Division are mathetmatical parrallels - the same numerical process. Exponents /Square Roots are mathetmatical parrallels...
Brackets are a mathematical language restriction - they indicate that the problem requires you to deal with them first. They indicate importance, and without brackets in more complicated equations it would be too difficult to interpret the language and it would be too ambigious to the solver. They are a necessicity for communication of math, but not a necessicity of math in and of itself.
All of the above are related to addition/subtraction at a very basic, expanded level.
Multiplication is multiple additions. 4x5 for example, is saying you have added 4 a total of 5 times.
Division is multiple subtractions. 20/5 for examples says you have equally subtracted from 20 a total 5 times.
Exponents is multiple sets of multiplication. This is interesting in that it relates to sequencing, but implies addition as well. For example 4^3 expanded in terms of multiplication is 4x4x4 or rather (4)x(4x4). Broken down further using multiplication/addition logic (4)x(16), or the long hang process 4+4+4... You get the picture. (Brackets used to demonstrate the concept I am conveying) Basic math concepts always break down to the basic functions of addition, and it's reverse process, subtraction.
This is why BEDMAS must be used. Essentially you are breaking down the equation into its most basic forms as I did above to break it down into the common language of addition/subtraction. BEDMAS is not just an interpretation of math at a basic level, it is a simplified way of mainstreaming the interaction of math in and of itself.
That being said, I can understand why algebra is being considered to be removed from school. I never struggled with math in school, and haven't had to use anything outside of basic algebra for med calcs in University either. High school is meant to provide you with general knowledge in many different areas so when the time comes to specialize (if you want to) you have the basic skills to do it. In this manner, I believe basic algebra is necessary. I think the failures of the education system indicate that the cirriculum may need to be changed, but it also indicates that there is a failure somewhere along the line that needs to be solved.
IF ONLY THERE WERE SOME SORT OF MATHEMATICAL WAY TO ANALYZE WHERE THIS FAILURE IS COMING FROM...
[edit] Not having auto-correct sucks.
I don't want to go over this again. So let this me a final summary on the issue.
The order: 1. exponentiation. 2. multiplication/division 3. addition/subtraction is an arbitrary convention that people have agreed to.
There is no reason that it can't instead be: 1. addition/subtraction 2. exponentiation. 3. multiplication/division.
You're argument that it has to be the first way because multiplication is repeated addition is irrelevant. Multiplication can still be repeated addition (for integers) even if the convention was changed. E.g. If we interpret 2+3*3 to mean that (2+3)*3 because addition is first, then multiplication is still repeated addition because the expression is equal to (2+3)+(2+3)+(2+3). And this is a different concept to 2+(3*3), which is why they aren't equal. But once you've agreed on a convention and translated everything to using your invented order of operation convention, everything in math that is currently true is still true. BIDMAS is not a theorem. It's a convention.
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Yes this is a lot more complicated and highly technical, that's why it's not taught outside of university level calculus. It's also less intuitive, unless you know a lot of math. But thinking of multiplication as repeated addition is not a good way to think about higher mathematics.
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
What the hell are they thinking? Algebra is like basic logic skills. If people can't do this I don't feel like they should be let out into the world with a high school diploma...
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Yes this is a lot more complicated and highly technical, that's why it's not taught outside of university level calculus. It's also less intuitive, unless you know a lot of math. But thinking of multiplication as repeated addition is not a good way to think about higher mathematics.
One can define pi*e as the area of a rectangle with lengths pi and e, without involving any Cauchy sequences. This interpretation makes it easy to see the commutativity of multiplication etc. Do not insist that everything be symbolized and Cauchyfied: Hilbert perfectly rigorized Euclidean geometry without any such crutches.
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
Edit: students entering high school in 2012-2014 are required to pass Algebra 2 as well.
For the non-Americans, it would be helpful if you gave a few examples of what each of those courses covers. Most other countries have a single unified mathematics course which is taught over several years and the concept of semester-long courses exists in few places. If you explain what sort of things are in the syllabus for each course, people can compare to their own system.
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
Edit: students entering high school in 2012-2014 are required to pass Algebra 2 as well.
For the non-Americans, it would be helpful if you gave a few examples of what each of those courses covers. Most other countries have a single unified mathematics course which is taught over several years and the concept of semester-long courses exists in few places. If you explain what sort of things are in the syllabus for each course, people can compare to their own system.
Well, it kinda varies state by state. Algebra 1 involves graphing/solving linear equations, polynomials, factoring, radicals, some statistics and probability, quadratics, and inequalities. Not necessarily in that order, and there may be fewer or more topics covered. Geometry involves shapes, introduction to logic, proofs, some trig, a shit ton of circles and triangles. Algebra 2 includes properties of functions, the algebra of functions, matrices, and systems of equations. Linear, quadratic, exponential, logarithmic, polynomial and rational functions as well.
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Yes this is a lot more complicated and highly technical, that's why it's not taught outside of university level calculus. It's also less intuitive, unless you know a lot of math. But thinking of multiplication as repeated addition is not a good way to think about higher mathematics.
One can define pi*e as the area of a rectangle with lengths pi and e, without involving any Cauchy sequences. This interpretation makes it easy to see the commutativity of multiplication etc. Do not insist that everything be symbolized and Cauchyfied: Hilbert perfectly rigorized Euclidean geometry without any such crutches.
Yes you can define it that way. But then it's still not repeated addition.
On July 30 2012 01:47 Silvanel wrote: THe thing is i dont know what for example Algebra 1 or 2 or pre-calc means. YEsh i googled it but i dont really know how relevant those things are.
Algebra 1: basic use of variables (add/sub/mult variable expressions), linear/quadratic functions, goes up to about the quadratic formula Algebra 2: third degree variable expressions, more complex manipulations (synthetic division, imaginary solutions, logarithms, trig expressions, matrix math), more complicated functions, often pretty much encompasses trigonometry Pre-Calc: Basically, Algebra 2 and some trigonometry. It's pretty much unnecessary for good students that can just go algebra 2-> calculus.
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Yes this is a lot more complicated and highly technical, that's why it's not taught outside of university level calculus. It's also less intuitive, unless you know a lot of math. But thinking of multiplication as repeated addition is not a good way to think about higher mathematics.
One can define pi*e as the area of a rectangle with lengths pi and e, without involving any Cauchy sequences. This interpretation makes it easy to see the commutativity of multiplication etc. Do not insist that everything be symbolized and Cauchyfied: Hilbert perfectly rigorized Euclidean geometry without any such crutches.
Yes you can define it that way. But then it's still not repeated addition.
There is merit in teaching methods that are simplified and that only encompass a small part of the problem. We teach Newtonian gravity even though general relativity is more correct simply because there's merit in simplicity where it applies. When you're teaching grade school, the special case of repeated addition applies.
My 83 year old grandma was taught algebra in high school, and so was every other family member of mine since then. Maybe even my great great grandparents were taught algebra, though I can't be sure.
The point is that algebra has always been part of a high school curriculum because it doesn't just teach you math, but other important mental exercises as well. Just because kids these days are completely slacking and dropping out doesn't mean the curriculum needs to be changed, it means the kids have to change. If we lower the standards of education, even more kids will start to drop out and it won't solve the problem.
It's a difficult subject for many, but that makes it all the more valuable as an indicator of ability on the part of employers. A kid may not have had the finance or situation to go to college, but if he has a high grade in maths you can almost guarantee he's not retarded.
Barring people from non technical college courses because they aren't wired that way is ofc not optimal, but if it was really a problem colleges would have picked up on it by now, if they haven't already, and lowered their requirements to keep courses full of students who are genuinely interested and capable in the subject being taught, rather than simply being vaguely intelligent.
On July 29 2012 16:40 UrsusRex wrote: Not one person has given a compelling reason how making algebra mandatory improves critical thinking skills. All of you supporting and condeming it are missing the basic problem. The entire world teaches algebra to their students but nowhere has it ever been shown to improve the quality of the people who learn it. All of you talking about tools and learning skills and resonating knowledge do not one shred of evidence for your position beyond asserting it as fact repeatedly. Show me any data than doesn't even imply, just correlate thats all I ask, any data that would link studying algebra to improving learning skills, because if it doesn't do that, we are teaching an irrelevant subject to millions of people.
It's not like educationalists everywhere were like "hey lets teach some arbitrary bullshit thats completely useless." The reason Algebra is taught so universally is that it's widely considered to be an incredibly useful and versatile tool applicable to many different fields of study.
My grandpa always said that math puts your brain in shape. Like it was said already Algebra is like basic logic and is important in no matter what you do, really helps you in anything you do in life.
I tutored Algebra for the second semester of this year, and every single kid in the class that sought extra help passed, including some that were failing or very close to failing when I got there. The way math is taught doesn't make sense to a lot of people, and that's a failing of the system, not the students or the subject matter. I know my evidence is somewhat anecdotal, but from my experience, there's simply no excuse for a student that has the commensurate intelligence to pass all of their other classes to fail math. It's not some mysterious enigmatic field that only the privileged few can and should understand, it's a very basic field.
It doesn't surprise me in the least, by the way, that the author of the article is in the social sciences.
edit: I should clarify. With the way your typical math class is taught, it's very much understandable and expected to have a lot of kids failing. Math is hard for a lot of people, and there needs to be more support and individual attention in math and science classes (and education as a whole), but that's an issue of lack of resources, and is in no way an excuse to make algebra an elective.
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
That's not difficult. I wasn't good at maths but everyone with average intelligence has to be able to pass a test like that. I'm sure there are people who can't pass it but those are usually not very bright persons and wont use it later in their jobs either.
Well in that case i can see argument for algebra 2 not being mandatory. At least parts of it seem like overkill. Still algebra 1 isnt something that average human being cant handle.
honestly, how difficult is high school algebra? we can't possibly set the bar any lower if we want the future generation to have any chance of competing on an international level
People aren't mentioning that many students learn algebra from year 6 to 8 in public schools, even before 9th grade. Algebra doesn't require special skills to learn. I taught my brother a few basic concepts of algebra with only knowledge of multiplication and division when he was in 3rd or 4th grade (me being in 6th or 7th). I wasn't even in our schools accelerated program.
On July 30 2012 02:08 corpuscle wrote: I tutored Algebra for the second semester of this year, and every single kid in the class that sought extra help passed, including some that were failing or very close to failing when I got there. The way math is taught doesn't make sense to a lot of people, and that's a failing of the system, not the students or the subject matter. I know my evidence is somewhat anecdotal, but from my experience, there's simply no excuse for a student that has the commensurate intelligence to pass all of their other classes to fail math. It's not some mysterious enigmatic field that only the privileged few can and should understand, it's a very basic field.
It doesn't surprise me in the least, by the way, that the author of the article is in the social sciences.
edit: I should clarify. With the way your typical math class is taught, it's very much understandable and expected to have a lot of kids failing. Math is hard for a lot of people, and there needs to be more support and individual attention in math and science classes (and education as a whole), but that's an issue of lack of resources, and is in no way an excuse to make algebra an elective.
I agree - its not the subject matter, its the medium. They way schools are structured in general is completely wrong for modern society. We need to reform the way we teach, not what we teach.
I personally passed my algebra1 class in 8th grade before I even became a freshman in highschool. There really is no reason that any human being should be unable to learn the basic skills required to pass a class like that. What the real problem is in highschool is that everything boils down to memorization. If school curriculums were changed a little bit so that they faced some real life problems that one might face (not just word problems on a page) people might be (if even slightly) more interested and score better grades.
For example: Last year in my AlgebraII/Trig class I was approached with a word problem having something to do with the relationship of the size of an airplane in relation ship of how much the plan could carry in weight. The values were but on a graph and it was expressed with an equation of x^4+3x^3... or something like that. Looking at it I realized I had no idea what that meant. I had no connection of how a bunch of x's raised to some power would eventually give me an answer of how much weight a plane could carry. A lot of the word problems in math classes aren't really real-life situations and don't give you a deeper understanding of why you would need to know the topic. Pretty much all it is is a practice problem hidden in a jumble of words where a bunch of random numbers are letters are slapped in your face and their supposed to represent some real-life event where there is no explanation of the relationship between them.
But anyway I continued on and I and i graphed all the points and connected the dots and stuff. Then I shaded in all the parts of the graph that would have made for an answer and I looked at it and realized that one area that was shaded represented a situation where the plane had no length. I went up and asked my teacher, and older lady who had worked at JPL and had majored in physics in her younger days, "Why would this ever make sense that the plane would have no length? Why does the mathematics say that is possible?" she replied with, "I don't really know this isn't the best example." So naturally I said "Well what is this really used for then?" "I don't really know."
What's worse than that is that I can guarantee that kid's in lower level classes than I am don't give two shits about what their learning could actually do for them. All they do is sit there and try to memorize things. There were plenty of times in chemistry where I would sit there and look at it and ask "well why is it exactly that way?" or "What makes it so uniform?" When the teacher would have to stop and go into some detail, I really felt like i was learning some real chemisty and how shit really works while plenty of the other kids were upset because i was wasting so much time.
I think it's bull shit that school's can't slow down enough for people to really grasp what's important. Its stupid that schools are so locked into state standards and other requirements that they can't fully teach what is most important and have to move on before some things are fully learned. I don't understand why say a geometry teacher can't have time to take the students out and have them try to figure out how tall the building is using rulers and protractors or try to figure out how to accurately estimate how many m&m's are really in that jar. Dumb little experiments like these are pretty much possible for all classes and if the kid's are out there applying the skills they have learned to some real word objects I think that this would greatly improve the understanding of most skills taught in school.
The underlying issue where I live is the complete lack of co-ordination in teaching. Elementary, Middle, and High schools where I live do not make sure students learn step by step, progressively from year to year. Many things are repeated over and over, as well as, many things are never taught and then assumed to have been learned. It's really inexcusable, the people running the school district at the highest levels are simply incompetent in this regard.
I had 3 years of pre algebra and 2 years of algebra. I made my teachers aware of the fact and they didn't care whatsoever. The real pain for me was having to master each specific teachers "right way" of doing things. They all taught only 1 method for most things and expected that method to be the only one used for their assignments (show your work was always mandatory) I often would achieve the right answers and get the problem marked as wrong because I didn't use the desired method or skipped a step they deemed necessary. Very frustrating. I think in all basic subjects (math, history, reading, and science) this is a huge issue, students should be taught in a steady stream, doing some review and building a base of knowledge that makes more advanced subjects come easier. The way I was taught was completely random and I feel my school system failed me as a student.
On July 30 2012 01:38 Colour wrote: What the hell are they thinking? Algebra is like basic logic skills. If people can't do this I don't feel like they should be let out into the world with a high school diploma...
The article makes a decent argument that a minority of high school graduates need the skills that algebra teaches them. Even with the current fail-rate, US society hasn't collapsed, so it doesn't exactly follow that the world is a worse place if they didn't know it in the first place.
The crux of algebra is "finding an unknown variable from a known expression", which, while logical, is far from teaching a set of logic skills.
From my own experiences volunteering to tutor math and science, the biggest problem is a lack of practice, and an incompatibility with different learning styles:
1). Some people just "get" algebra; others have to work very hard. I just finished my Master's thesis for Chemical Engineering, but when I was in 9th grade I needed to put in a lot of time and effort to understand basic algebra. I got a solid B in a non-honor's level class. Looking back, I didn't practice nearly enough. Math proficiency is like training yourself in a sport: you need to practice consistently . Since there is a tendency to avoid subjects that are hard coupled with the US sentiment that failing math is socially acceptable, it's no wonder high school students blow it off.
2). Math and science books are usually written in a style that caters to sequential learners and "thinkers". A LOT of STEM majors in college learn this way. Unfortunately, gloabal learners, "feelers", "sensors", "perceivers", etc do not learn these classes easily. It takes a lot of effort. Educators are becoming better at incorporating techniques that help other learning styles and including active learning exercises, but progress is slow and the paradigm is FAR from shifted.
I understand the author of the article thinks that removing algebra will increase graduation rates, but I think that it will do more harm than good. The whole point of secondary education is to prepare us for the real world. Even though 10% of high school graduates need algebra for their future, why should education only cater to the majority? Don't additional proficiencies produce better-rounded students? Can't you make the same argument about history courses, gym, fine arts, and almost every other subject? If we're specifically catering to real world applications, wouldn't that make high school a trade school?
The problem isn't if algebra should be taught but rather the method students are ranked and placed into particular high school math class. Not everyone learns at the same pace so I don't understand the reasoning behind placing a math illiterate in the same class as a math genius. I've heard the argument that placing an poor/average student, in the same class as a genius, is beneficial since it allows the less gifted and the smarter student to collaborate. The aforementioned is hogwash since student interaction is next to nil during math class, at least that was my experience during high school.
And most urban class room time is roughly 40 minutes to 1 hour depending on the school you attend. All you need is 1 misbehaving student to suck up 20 minutes of that class time and suddenly everyone's math future is jeapordized. Or worst yet a teacher who doesn't know how to effectively communicate mathematical principles dooms their students to less than average performance in future math classes.
Group students by mathematical aptitude and tailor the course as needed. Get rid of tenure and allow ineffective teachers to be fired. Pay teachers more so you attract better talent. Segregate repeatedly disruptive students into a basic curriculum and let them graduate with a GED, or steer them towards a vocational class such as plumbing, electricity, etc. Increase the school day and shorten the summer vacation. Doing the above will improve all math scores and we will be arguing about something other than eliminating Algebra.
Yay, we have reached a level of civilization where stupidity or lack of education no longer pose a direct threat to someonel's survival chances...
Polemics aside, what's the deal with knowledge that isn't "useful"? It's not that one's brain would suddenly be full, and in order to learn something new one had to forget their phone number or something like that... Isn't it kind of nice that people have the opportunity to learn stuff, even if it's only for academic exercise? In other words, in what way would not learning anything be better than learning it?
I cant think of a single high-school subject I utilize more in everyday life than algebra. I would say English, except that by high school all my English classes were about analyzing literature, something I have hardly thought about since then.
Trigonometry, maybe, most people could do without.
On July 30 2012 00:39 shadowy wrote: In my own opinion, learning math teaches us abstractive thinking.
Being able to manipulate with abstractive ideas and applying them to different situations (which might or might not be abstractive as well) is the only thing, that separates us from the animals. Put it another way - abstractive thinking is the sole tool we use as species to progress.
Hence, teaching math is the only way for us to advance and survive as species.
Could teaching higher provisions of math be targeted better? I am absolutely positive it can.
Do we have to stop teaching math - to myself the answer can be only one - we shouldn't.
--- I have graduated with math and never really had to use in work/real life. I would have made it through in life with simple 5 grade stuff, but the skills I learned I find irreplaceable.
This pretty much sums up the way I think of why math is being taught in schools. After a certain point (which comes quite early) real life application stops being the main point of the math you are being taught. Instead what you are learning is abstract and logical thinking as well as a good bunch of problem solving. All of which is incredibly useful for so many things in life, and I don't think you can be taught any of those things as effectively in any other class than math. Therefore I think that even if practical applications of many things you are taught are relatively few, unless you want to continue studying science, I still think math is incredibly important.
To be honest I think that the main problem is the way math is taught, which at least in Sweden is incredibly dull and feels rather outdated. Very little is done to try to make it seem either exciting, interesting or useful. Instead it's just drone like repetition of exercises that is utterly uninspiring unless you have a fascination with numbers, which many don't. Just saying that 'kids are bad at math' feels like a odd conclusion. Have kids become more stupid? Hardly. However cultures have changed and I think how math is taught has changed quite little. I think 'we are bad at teaching kids math' is probably a more likely conclusion.
On July 30 2012 02:30 Servius_Fulvius wrote: I understand the author of the article thinks that removing algebra will increase graduation rates, but I think that it will do more harm than good. The whole point of secondary education is to prepare us for the real world. Even though 10% of high school graduates need algebra for their future, why should education only cater to the majority? Don't additional proficiencies produce better-rounded students? Can't you make the same argument about history courses, gym, fine arts, and almost every other subject? If we're specifically catering to real world applications, wouldn't that make high school a trade school?
Very good point.
The reasoning "kids are failing too much so we should make it easier" is possibly the worst conclusion I have heard in a long time. Why is this an issue now? How long has algebra been part of the standard cirriculum? Have high failing rates always been a problem? He even mentions Canada and Korea as being exceptions. Why is that?
Is it possible that the problem with failing rates isn't with algebra, but with the students or the education platform as a whole?
I suggest fixing the real source of the problem first before looking at an alternative to algebra (although I do support that as well).
The solution is better teachers. Algebra is the point at which text books start to become useless as tools for learning in math, As opposed to tools for practice which they are very good at. This means that more emphasis is put on the teacher to make up for the terrible text books. Unfortunately it means that the kids who do not pay attention in class have no chance in hell of passing.
Algebra is putting simple problem putting skills in its easiest to understand context. Everyone learn differently, but the application of elmentary math isn't about learning the equations and things as much as taking a problem and then solve it using a logical method. You may end up not even needing basic algebra in the most strict sense, but you will always be able to use the problem solving aspect of it, whether you realize it or not.
Unless you plan on doing something monotonous like flipping burgers for the rest of your life, which is fine if that is your decision.
On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote: Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it.
Too many of these posts -- you have to realize most people don't learn mathematics very quick, and for somebody like me (who probably has dyscalculia) I can't even do very, very basic math...like adding numbers below three digits sort of basic. You can only imagine how horrifying college algebra was for me. As stated previously in this thread, I failed it three times and finally got a C -- after a couple years of private tutoring for it.
On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote: Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it.
Too many of these posts -- you have to realize most people don't learn mathematics very quick, and for somebody like me (who probably has dyscalculia) I can't even do very, very basic math...like adding numbers below three digits sort of basic. You can only imagine how horrifying college algebra was for me. As stated previously in this thread, I failed it three times and finally got a C -- after a couple years of private tutoring for it.
There are obviously exceptions like you when you have dyscalculia but most high school students should be able to pass it atleast from what I've seen.
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
That's not difficult. I wasn't good at maths but everyone with average intelligence has to be able to pass a test like that. I'm sure there are people who can't pass it but those are usually not very bright persons and wont use it later in their jobs either.
A multiple choice test for maths? In my opinion multiple choice tests are always a bad choice (how ironic!).
1. How to follow instructions 2. Analisys to when apply certain set of instructions (some times you have to use one set, pause, use another one, then continue but at the end is just following instructions) 3. Think a little bit for a change instead of just repeating/memorazing facts. 4 How so solve equations. Which actually is something you so a lot in your life if you handle money.
I wonder how many of those kids that fail at algebra has parents that call math "a hard subject"...
lets not learn math cause 30% of the students drop out cuz of it!
WTF. There are some subjects in universities with 80% of the ppl failing. Not everyone dumb should be able to study... Srsly, the math u have to learn for most studies is so extremly simple, ppl failing to get through that should wash dishes or so
The unfortunate problem with asking a question like this in a board like this is you're only going to hear from the educated or generally scholarly. Honestly, those saying that algebra is easy are the people that I feel mean the least in the discussion. Regardless of whether or not it was your best subject in school, if it was easy then it's not an issue to you in any way, and you're not exactly who this issue targets.
Frankly I think we expect too much considering what we have. I have no problem with a student struggling through algebra once, but we need to train our educators to see common threads in the issues of these students who are failing. We also need to acknowledge that the general idea that a higher education is necessary for all citizens is a failure to our citizens.
I went to school for art, and am currently working in a job that requires no degree, and does not pertain to the degree I went to school for. That said I use basic algebra pretty often (it helps a lot with excel), but think I could have been where I am even without ever having learned it. It's a topic I struggled with extensively in school and is part of the reason I ended up taking the education path I did (which was an immense mistake). I don't blame anyone or anything but myself for my failings, but when I think back at the teachers I had in high school who were not trained to see the symptoms of learning disabilities I was exhibiting I can't help but feel disappointed.
I don't mean to say that those of you who handled Algebra with ease don't have opinions or theories that are good or important to the discussion, and I'm sorry if it seemed that way in the initial paragraph. However I want to stress that those of you who can't fathom the issue at hand probably need to look at it from another point of view. I'm sure many of you mathematicians or computer scientists took an art course you didn't think was necessary or didn't think you needed to learn the history of Russia in the pre WW1 world (obviously for you Russians out there this doesn't apply). As an artist, I feel art classes are necessary as they teach an understanding and appreciation for culture, but I'd never expect you to know the rule of thirds or chiaroscuro. Put the fundamentals of algebra to work in real world situations and we'd be better off as a civilization, imo.
Let me preface this by saying I don't know much about the US school system, but what on Earth is all this "students fail highschool due to failing algebra" stuff? How do you fail highschool? And why the fuck don't the US use a subject-by-subject exam system like almost everywhere else?
It's also terrible because not teaching algebra at high school means there's going to be new freshmen in college that are going to want to be engineers or pre-med or something, but need algebra. Colleges will have to spend more time teaching kids things they should have learned in high school.
On July 30 2012 02:51 alexanderzero wrote: Algebra is ridiculously easy. I don't understand why any person should be unable to comprehend it.
Too many of these posts -- you have to realize most people don't learn mathematics very quick, and for somebody like me (who probably has dyscalculia) I can't even do very, very basic math...like adding numbers below three digits sort of basic. You can only imagine how horrifying college algebra was for me. As stated previously in this thread, I failed it three times and finally got a C -- after a couple years of private tutoring for it.
Sorry if my answer is too invasive, but doesn't dyscalculia qualify as some sort of disability? If so, please be assured that I am sympathetic towards your personal struggle, and I congratulate you on succeding in the end; however, I honestly wouldn't want to dismiss entire school subjects because some individuals have an illness.
they could make math more like GRE where its more logic centered as opposed to memorized scheme centered. either way, algebra is such a low difficulty that competency in this field should stay
On July 30 2012 03:17 Kasu wrote: Let me preface this by saying I don't know much about the US school system, but what on Earth is all this "students fail highschool due to failing algebra" stuff? How do you fail highschool? And why the fuck don't the US use a subject-by-subject exam system like almost everywhere else?
In a lot of schools (it varies) there are bad consequences if you fail one or more classes. You may have to take summer school if you fail one or two, you may have to repeat a grade if you fail more. For some schools, you may be kicked out and have to attend another one. This causes a problem: school systems generally want to get these problem students out, so they give lots of D's when the students aren't necessarily deserving.
We do use a subject by subject exam system, I think. When you take the ACT you are tested on math, grammar, reading, and science (logical reasoning) separately and then given a composite score. The same goes for the SAT. You can also take AP classes for college credit with their own subject tests as well as SAT II tests to gauge ability in subjects like physics.
On July 30 2012 03:18 DoubleReed wrote: It's also terrible because not teaching algebra at high school means there's going to be new freshmen in college that are going to want to be engineers or pre-med or something, but need algebra. Colleges will have to spend more time teaching kids things they should have learned in high school.
This is what I was thinking. Not everyone needs algebra, true, but learning it opens many doors for you to choose what you want to do later in life. Even if you manage to learn algebra+geometry+trig in one or two years, in that time you won't be learning something more advanced like Calculus since they build off each other to a large degree.
a) don't change the curriculum; change the way it is taught b) leverage technology c) never lower standards; this doesn't help anyone d) recognize those who need more help in learning the material, and do what is necessary to help them learn e) understand that there are those that do not want to learn algebra; and will never
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
That's not difficult. I wasn't good at maths but everyone with average intelligence has to be able to pass a test like that. I'm sure there are people who can't pass it but those are usually not very bright persons and wont use it later in their jobs either.
A multiple choice test for maths? In my opinion multiple choice tests are always a bad choice (how ironic!).
There has actually been research on if students do differently on multiple choice exams and short answer exams. It turns out that there was almost no difference, the scores on the two tests are very similar. Multiple choice exams aren't that bad, with the added bonus of being so easy to grade!
I'm sorry for not reading all of the thread, having got here late, but I see the general thrust of the posts...
I agree with you OP, that teaching "mathematical literacy" is a good alternative to teaching rote algebra. However, the one is much harder than the other for an average teacher to try and teach. The latter may not be effective -- indeed according to the article and general knowledge it is not -- but any semi-mathematical dolt can stand in front of 30 kids and drill them on some arcane theorems we discovered centuries ago. It takes a gifted teacher to even begin to explain "mathematical thinking" to people who aren't math people. And it would probably have a similar low rate of effectiveness, in terms of how many students can successfully provide a sophisticated and correct answer to the Fermi problems given as examples in the blog you linked.
I am all for teaching the thought process without the rote subject matter, and many times this is possible. Once a curriculum is developed and disseminated, I suppose this would be a matter of course and not a hurdle. Nevertheless, it is a significant challenge to create and hone this curriculum. Once "finalized" (whatever that means), every classroom would still suffer from a distribution of people with varying knowledge gaps. When you are testing on rote algebra knowledge, it doesn't matter if advanced kids aren't challenged. That's par for general education. But the most unsuccessful mathematician in a "math thinking" class would set the pace for everyone, quite dragging down the communal achievement level. Unless you just want to leave someone behind. Which is kind of what happens now for kids who just won't get it.
I am frankly scared about the prospect of a billion technicians who don't know their underpinnings. I'm not talking about social / humanities people anymore, but the supposed CAD designers and whathaveyou that have little clue about everything rigorous that makes their work possible. I really have no way to be objective about this, but even on the basis of "values" I think it's a strong case to say that we should have respect for the lineage of our knowledge. A global society that values knowhow, on the timescale of a career, more than knowwhat, on the scale of human civilization, seems somehow flimsier without much gained in the tradeoff, other than what? Dropout rates improved in the margins? Which is not to say you can't have both, but you can certainly overdo it on replacing one with the other. Depending on a tiny academic minority to hold the torch is... a gamble?
Paranoia aside, I think a history-oriented account of math would be very valuable for everyone, but it is often left out of most people's education unless they are a math major. This utterly confounds me, because learning the sequence of historical mathematical knowledge gives so much perspective and provides grounding when so often students are fed encyclopedic tidbits that probably don't provide any attraction without prior inclination. But if you see the whole arc of "important discoveries", even if you just go up through basic algebra, you have a sense of narrative that lends import beyond the pitiful "I should learn this because authority says I'm supposed to". And without soapboxing too much, I don't see how a future global society can get along without being centered on the journey of humankind in the scientific endeavor.
As you can see I attach existential importance to this issue, by way of extension. If not life and death, at least ask yourself if you want to live in a world where you don't expect your fellows to even entertain the idea that ancient knowledge empowering them should ever enter their heads.
On July 30 2012 02:52 wswordsmen wrote: The solution is better teachers. Algebra is the point at which text books start to become useless as tools for learning in math, As opposed to tools for practice which they are very good at. This means that more emphasis is put on the teacher to make up for the terrible text books. Unfortunately it means that the kids who do not pay attention in class have no chance in hell of passing.
A million times this. I've never heard of mass math-fear in many other countries, and algebra is readily tackled in grade school in many places. If our students can't learn this basic skill, it's a problem with our educational system and teachers, not with the students.
On July 30 2012 02:52 wswordsmen wrote: The solution is better teachers. Algebra is the point at which text books start to become useless as tools for learning in math, As opposed to tools for practice which they are very good at. This means that more emphasis is put on the teacher to make up for the terrible text books. Unfortunately it means that the kids who do not pay attention in class have no chance in hell of passing.
A million times this. I've never heard of mass math-fear in many other countries, and algebra is readily tackled in grade school in many places. If our students can't learn this basic skill, it's a problem with our educational system and teachers, not with the students.
mass math-fear is common in other places as well and I don't think it's the teachers but rather people (as in the general population) telling everyone that math is some magical thing that only geniuses can do anyways.
I'm doing maths and you really learn to never tell anyone about it really fast (unless you're around good friends or people who do stuff like that as well). If you tell someone you plan on doing math when you're a grown up the first reaction usually is a "wtf are you crazy?". That's really not helping and imo that's the reason for this mass-fear and people failing in math so much, because if you're told that only weirdos and geniuses can do math like 10 times a day you eventually start believing that bullshit and you instantly made another child think math is incredible hard instead of giving him or her the oppertunity to go in classes unbiased.
Of course children fail at math if they go in their classes thinking "omfgomfg this is going to be so hard, everyone told me only the really smart kids are going to understand this class, I'm probably going to have a really hard time".
This should be taken with less than a grain of salt. I am not a math person, and yes I passed my math courses usually with A's, but the way most math is taught is not intuitive. It should be taught as a simple transative theory, A does B, B does C, so A does C. It should be taught in that kind of build up method rather than the way it is done now in most poorly taught schools which is a haphazard account of some parts of math and skipping the parts that may require some extra thought. Many people do not use math in their daily lives that is at the same level as Alg I and II, but they are necessary to have educated people. Sure maybe get a dialed down version for people who really don't do well at math, but getting rid of it is stupid. You can teach ALG I and II in an easier way by just giving easier questions on a test. You don't need to have super hard questions to prove that a student knows his material which is a something that most teachers believe in this country, and its dead wrong. The idea of school is to impart knowledge, not push the limits of students.
Of course Algebra is not necessary, neither are many other school subjects and things in life. Is art necessary? How about Science? Of course not, they're all human luxury's.
If there is an excessive amount of dropouts from Algebra, the methods need to be reexamined. To consider eliminating the course because it is 'too hard' is the biggest load of bullshit.
While not used directly in many career fields, Algebra is one of those qualifying courses that lets students realize their potential for more advanced maths used in aviation, electrical engineering, and other advanced sciences. Without making it mandatory, students who excel in it will never have a chance to realize their potential, and programs will never have the opportunity to discover their future candidates. Removing the course appeals to the laziness in people... If it is optional, most people will take the path of least resistance and avoid it.
Algebra is not absolutely neccessary for everyone, but is absolutely comprehendable for everyone, if they aren't learning it they either aren't putting forth enough effort or the curriculum or method of education is poor. And the value it provides for, at very least mental stimulation and advanced problem solving, and at most qualifying more advanced math students, is superb. LONG LIVE ALGEBRA
Teaching methods need to change, not what we teach. In high school I can't tell you how many times I've heard "when will I ever use this!?" That needs to be done away with. Make these concepts and topics applicable to things kids enjoy. Instead of someone who has been teaching this stuff and knows it inside and out, walking into class everyday saying "Do this this this, hope we all got it! Class dismissed!" It has nothing to do with whether you deem it easy or not, I personally thought all math was simple until college but not everyone is the same. And throwing numbers around and doing tricks that some students might not understand makes them lose track quickly and subsequently harder to catch up and succeed.
Although at the same time, I am a proponent of "if your life doesn't require it, don't make them take it." I am engineer, why do I need to be well rounded in art and culture? I don't care and it doesn't help me. That stuff has always bothered me. There are some kids who will never have to paint a picture or memorize what happened in the Spanish-American War after the age of 17, don't waste their time and energy that can go towards what they like/excel at.
On July 30 2012 01:30 Silvanel wrote: Since math in Poland isnt teached that way (we have classes in math in general) i dont really know what we are taking about. Anyone care to explain? What is level of mathematical knowledge that is required from a high shool gradute? A link to exampalary test or something would be nice.
In Florida, students graduating in 2014 or later are required to have 4 years of math. 1 year which must be Algebra I or equivalent (such as a year in Algebra 1A and a year in Algebra 1B) and 1 year which must be geometry or higher (pre-calc, alg 2, calc, maybe probability & stats).
On July 29 2012 23:59 farvacola wrote: [quote] I am suggesting that such an alternative strategy is a good start when thinking on how math might be taught differently than it is now. My school district happened to have one of the best honors programs in the state of Ohio, but from 4th grade through graduating high school, it was readily apparent to all of the honors kids that we were getting the cream of the districts educational crop while the kids in normal classes fell by the wayside as a result of a less successful and less interesting curriculum standard.
Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
I would like to see you attempt to teach completing the square to an actual class of average kids... because if you can pull that off well then your plan might work regarding the quadratic formula (I'm not confident), but we have gone away from the topic of singing to teach something.
It's OK 90% of the thread is still on topic.
Obviously the students should have some proficiency in symbolic manipulation before learning how to solve quadratics. But I fail to see your point. Do you have a better method?
Originally you asserted that a trick like a song shouldn't be used to teach formulas. In an ideal situation I agree... better to have people come up with things than give it to them (although I would argue that if you are already giving a kid a formula for whatever reason, then a song is no better or worse than another memorization method).
Here is the problem I have with your approach (and this is without going into the practical limitations as an actual teacher in a school): Kids who get completing the square will very possibly be better off dealing with quadratics than they would have been if you just gave them the quadratic formula itself after factoring was learned. However, kids who struggle with completing the square will have no way of solving quadratics (other than factoring). Should the kid not progress in their math career until they can complete the square? It's not necessary to understand where the quadratic formula comes from in order to be successful in math/life/work/college/etc. Remember, I agree that it's better to understand than to be given, but not always practical.
I didn't learn completing the square until precalculus, unfortunately.
I'll quote a Facebook post I just saw from a Columbia philosophy prof I won't name:
" " ... it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar."
What an appalling Op-Ed piece! Who the hell is this guy, and what makes him think he's qualified to opine on the subject of an appropriate education for philosophers?"
Not that that part in particular matters too much to the argument in the piece, but it struck me as well.
He mentioned Germany's schooling where the grades 1-10 are the mandatory ones. Past that, you can get into vocational classes and start getting hands-on training which is what the U.S lacks dearly. Most high schools seem hell-bent on preparing the studends for college, shoving them down a path they don't really want. College is great and all, but we should be putting more emphasis on getting some of these kids into vocational classes and schools. You don't need high level math to do these jobs, they are in high-demand, and its a stable career that pays well. That's the first mistake the school system makes, they assume everyone want's to go to college after high school and thus forces the curriculum on everyone.
I don't think the problem is Algebra, anyone can learn it if they really wanted to (and they should, I still think everyone could use knowledge for basic algebra). Not everyone enjoys having it shoved down their throat though. Saying it is too hard is just bullshit. HS students couldn't give a fuck less about Algebra for the most part, it's a problem of motivation and that's a hard problem to fix.
Wow, some people dont get why they teach math in schools. Its not because the math stuff have use outside of class, its for developing logical thinking,,,
On July 30 2012 04:08 StarStrider wrote: If there is an excessive amount of dropouts from Algebra, the methods need to be reexamined. To consider eliminating the course because it is 'too hard' is the biggest load of bullshit.
While not used directly in many career fields, Algebra is one of those qualifying courses that lets students realize their potential for more advanced maths used in aviation, electrical engineering, and other advanced sciences. Without making it mandatory, students who excel in it will never have a chance to realize their potential, and programs will never have the opportunity to discover their future candidates. Removing the course appeals to the laziness in people... If it is optional, most people will take the path of least resistance and avoid it.
Algebra is not absolutely neccessary for everyone, but is absolutely comprehendable for everyone, if they aren't learning it they either aren't putting forth enough effort or the curriculum or method of education is poor. And the value it provides for, at very least mental stimulation and advanced problem solving, and at most qualifying more advanced math students, is superb. LONG LIVE ALGEBRA
I feel like lots of people are misreading the article. Quoting from the end:
Yes, young people should learn to read and write and do long division, whether they want to or not. But there is no reason to force them to grasp vectorial angles and discontinuous functions. Think of math as a huge boulder we make everyone pull, without assessing what all this pain achieves. So why require it, without alternatives or exceptions? Thus far I haven’t found a compelling answer.
He's not saying that because its hard therefore we should eliminate it, people are turning into moral crusaders based on that simple misunderstanding. He's saying he doesn't think its necessary for people to go through training in Algebra if they won't end up using it meaningfully in their lives; and since it is obviously a huge stumbling block for many students according to the statistics and experts he cited, then it should clearly be reviewed for removal.
If it were absolutely necessary, like long division and reading and writing, then he wouldn't bring this up. If people would simply read the article more carefully I feel like most of the uproar would die down and we could discuss the substantive issue of how algebra is used in our day to day lives.
On July 30 2012 04:36 ZeGzoR wrote: Wow, some people dont get why they teach math in schools. Its not because the math stuff have use outside of class, its for developing logical thinking,,,
Isn't the logical counter to this argument that math isn't the *only* subject that teaches logical thinking? I mean really, do you believe that you can't be logical if you don't learn math? Off the top of my head, what about philosophy class, or critical analysis of classic literature? Clearly you don't need math to learn how to think critically or logically; its just a useful tool towards that end. But if it largely teaches unnecessary things, then why not skip it and focus on things that are more relevant to students lives?
Anyway I don't have any conclusive opinion on this issue, but it is good to review what is being taught and how useful it is.
Only thing you learn from Algebra is that nothing in life is simple as it seems.
What I mean is that if your good at Algebra your most times good than not good at solving difficult problems in life if you apply what you have learned in life to it. That is why and only why I think learning that in high school (any part of your schooling) is really essential, because you can simply apply it later in life, on any part of your life.
So, for me, learning at least basic Algebra or math or any type of problem solving programs is essential part of teaching in a young persons life.
This is the dumbest thread ever.. please stop with your lowest common denomator.. now is the first time ever kids are dumber than their parents. I could hire 10 people right now.. if they knew pde and complex fucntions and were willing to work for less that 70k a year.. but honestly i think if they are not willing to struggle through it.. they don't deserve the degree .. the degree requires work and practice. like starcraft who is good without practice.. so if they don't practice. they don't get the reward
I thought there was a general consensus on them being by far the best teachers, though. Unless it's not the case in the U.S. ?
i dunno iirc my high-school math teachers were all pretty bad except one, and this was doing AP classes and all where you'd think teachers would be able to teach better. when i retook calc 2 at community college (and when i did later math at uni), i realized how shitty my high school math teachers were.
you might be able to make the argument they were better than other high school teachers though, so i guess they "win" at being not the worst
algebra is increasingly important because we live in the information age were science and engineering are playing more important roles in our lives. the purpose of school should be to prepare you to enter the next level of education or to start working. since math-based jobs are becoming a larger share of the job market, it only makes sense to expect students to have a higher understanding of science/engineering (and fundamentally, math) than we previously did.
On July 30 2012 03:57 docvoc wrote: It should be taught as a simple transative theory, A does B, B does C, so A does C. It should be taught in that kind of build up method rather than the way it is done now in most poorly taught schools which is a haphazard account of some parts of math and skipping the parts that may require some extra thought.
What you're describing relates specifically to "sequential learners". These people learn best when there is a linear progression of the course material. Your appeal of A= B, B = C, so A = C is the logical progression best understood by "thinkers".
As I mentioned before, this means global learners, "feelers", "sensors", and "perceivers" are at a natural disadvantage. This can be overcome with a lot of hard work and individual effort, but it is a whole lot easier to reach for the C and never think of it again.
This thread seems to expect a lot out of teachers. I've been a guest science teacher for underpriviledged high school students and the job is overwhelmingly hard. You can be the best teacher in the world, but if your students don't care, no matter how good you are at motivating them, then there's truly nothing you, as the teacher, can do. Poor US performance in high school STEM fields is as much a reflectance apathetic high school students as ineffictive teaching.
i dunno iirc my high-school math teachers were all pretty bad except one, and this was doing AP classes and all where you'd think teachers would be able to teach better. when i retook calc 2 at community college (and when i did later math at uni), i realized how shitty my high school math teachers were.
you might be able to make the argument they were better than other high school teachers though, so i guess they "win" at being not the worst
Are you serious, asking if algebra is needed? Just because America's students fail it at a high degree, doesn't mean that its redundent for later life.
What people need to start seeing, is that verry intelligent people can be bad at algebra. This is something i could never believe for myself up untill recently. I thought that everyone who was realy smart, automatically had to be good at algebra, and it seems that manny people in this thread seem to think similar (probably because they are good at algebra)
You just need to see one example to open your eyes (i know such an example, hence my opinnion on this subject in an earlier post) A person who always was "bad" in math and who had trouble understanding it, but who has achieved more and turned out to be smarter then everyone around him who was 10 times better in math. It is hard to believe but there is more about beeing smart then simply beeing good at math. Our current education puts to much value on math wich holds back equally intelligent people who simply dont "see" math yet have to "waste" countless and precious hours in university learning it. Hours wich could be spend alot more productivly by studying other subjects.
On July 30 2012 04:36 ZeGzoR wrote: Wow, some people dont get why they teach math in schools. Its not because the math stuff have use outside of class, its for developing logical thinking,,,
Isn't the logical counter to this argument that math isn't the *only* subject that teaches logical thinking? I mean really, do you believe that you can't be logical if you don't learn math? Off the top of my head, what about philosophy class, or critical analysis of classic literature? Clearly you don't need math to learn how to think critically or logically; its just a useful tool towards that end. But if it largely teaches unnecessary things, then why not skip it and focus on things that are more relevant to students lives?
not mixing critically and logically, did you know that philosophy studies are split (generally) between classical philosophy, natural philosophy (and metaphisics) and logic? i think it's safe bet that logic on philosophy studies is hated equally to math in high school...
On July 30 2012 00:03 paralleluniverse wrote: [quote] Singing math is one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.
Suppose your students were to learn the quadratic formula. Would you give it to them or make them somehow come up with it? There are arguments for both, depending on things like at what stage in their math career they are at. However, let's suppose you needed to give them the formula and teach them how to use it. They need to memorize the formula (barring a cheat sheet). How are you going to get them to memorize the formula? This is the same as asking how you will get students to memorize anything else (it isn't math specific). You may not like your core subject teachers requiring you to sing a song to learn something, but don't think that this has anything to do with math.
I would not gets students to memorize the quadratic formula. I would teach them how to solve quadratic equations.
How? Assuming factoring and the like is already covered, and you are going on to problems that require the quadratic formula to be solved.
I would also derive the formula.
You've lost the majority of students at this point, lol. I like the idea in certain applications, but not all. Remember that we are talking about public school education in the USA in this thread.
Once you've solved several quadratic equations you'll naturally remember it without any effort specifically on trying to memorize it.
Back to my first question of the current post.
Memorizing formulas has zero educational value.
Almost completely agree with you.
If you think math is about memorizing formulas, then I would direct you to Lockhart's Lament, which has been linked a few times already: http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf
I've read it, and you are assuming that teachers actually have 100% control over what happens in their classes, which they usually don't.
Completing the square.
Okay so if I understand correctly, you would cover completing the square prior to the quadratic formula (different from most programs I'm aware of) because it makes it easier to learn rather than just be given the quadratic formula. Can you explain how students will get from completing the square to the quadratic formula?
We also have a similar problem with completing the square. How would you teach it without simply giving them a list of steps (the algorithm)? In theory you can use derivation, but as I said earlier this doesn't work for every student.
A good plan would go like this: 1) How should we solve (x+1)^2 + 4 = 0? 2) Now that we've established that 1) is really easy to solve how do we solve x^2 + 9x - 1 = 0 3) The problem reduces to writing 2) in a form like 1). 4) We work out how to do that, and hence solve 2). 5) We apply this to solve ax^2 + bx + c = 0, hence arriving at the quadratic equation.
At no point would I impress upon my students all the wonderful applications of the quadratic equation, because there seriously are none. I would present this as a neat math trick.
I would like to see you attempt to teach completing the square to an actual class of average kids... because if you can pull that off well then your plan might work regarding the quadratic formula (I'm not confident), but we have gone away from the topic of singing to teach something.
It's OK 90% of the thread is still on topic.
Obviously the students should have some proficiency in symbolic manipulation before learning how to solve quadratics. But I fail to see your point. Do you have a better method?
Originally you asserted that a trick like a song shouldn't be used to teach formulas. In an ideal situation I agree... better to have people come up with things than give it to them (although I would argue that if you are already giving a kid a formula for whatever reason, then a song is no better or worse than another memorization method).
Here is the problem I have with your approach (and this is without going into the practical limitations as an actual teacher in a school): Kids who get completing the square will very possibly be better off dealing with quadratics than they would have been if you just gave them the quadratic formula itself after factoring was learned. However, kids who struggle with completing the square will have no way of solving quadratics (other than factoring). Should the kid not progress in their math career until they can complete the square? It's not necessary to understand where the quadratic formula comes from in order to be successful in math/life/work/college/etc. Remember, I agree that it's better to understand than to be given, but not always practical.
I didn't learn completing the square until precalculus, unfortunately.
I think the argument here is that (beyond solving one-variable linear equations), math should be taught like art.
You speak from the point of view that it is necessary that everyone learn the quadratic formula. I contend that this is hardly the case for people who don't go into technical fields, and furthermore, it's not even that important for a lot of actual math (higher algebra and analysis, for instance.)
It is, however, important that engineers and physicists and chemists know the quadratic formula, but hopefully, these will be the types of people who are curious and bright enough to follow an organic derivation of something like the quadratic formula, rather than simply memorizing it. (Memorizers should go for law or medicine But really, future lawyers and doctors should be able to follow logical arguments as well.)
The problem here is that we're so hung up on "testing" math. "SAT math," for example, is a very strange chimera: much more than an average liberal arts major needs, but incredibly boring for anyone who's interested in math. But for some reason, we insist on testing the entire populace on such inane subject matter?
What's needed is a complete reform of how we view mathematics and mathematics education. Math(beyond solving one-variable linear equations) should be treated like art: the teacher guides exploration, and it should be fun and interesting. Yes, there will be people who are very bad at math---but this shouldn't be treated terribly differently than someone who can't sing in tune or someone whose artwork wants to make you vomit: yes, you feel very uncomfortable that this person is so untalented, and you want to help them as much as possible, but it's not totally necessary to press the matter. (Especially for the "feelers" and "sensors" talked about but Servius_Fulvius---these people are very unlikely to go into a STEM field anyway, since their thought process isn't well-suited for it; why must they learn about converting polar coordinates to Cartesian coordinates?) I think this is what most mathematicians would like our math education to be like.
Unfortunately, the status quo is not so easy to change... Such reforms are incredibly implausible, if downright impossible, because culturally, Americans see math as a "technical subject" whose lofty, overarching goal is to "get the right answer."
No, "getting the right answer" is not the point. "Exploring interesting things within a logical framework" is the point. Yes, you would like to explore accurately, and engineers and scientists do often need to solve equations and the like. It's possible that they might have to memorize these equations (but then again, there's the internet and software to help with that.) But what the majority of students (people who go into non-technical fields... and also aspiring mathematicians and theoretical physicists!) would really benefit much more from an exploration-based approach.
For me, it's this: We have people who don't get math, they're just not going to get it, and the jobs they're going to perform likely won't need it. Should we force them to retake the same classes, repeatedly, causing them to possibly go so far as drop out of high school for a class that its arguable if they'll ever need?
These people need to be helped. All kids should get 1 on 1 time, but what if they still don't get it? Do we just leave them to rot in the school, until they get tired of it, and quit? I think we need to look at alternatives.
1. From what I know the brain continues to develop untill age 16 or something close. So some subjects that actually require intelligent thinking is required for youths to develop. History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect.
2. Algebra is actually very good for estimating intelligence. While nearly all subjects test only dedication and amount of effort a person puts into studying, algebra tests not only that but also the intelligence of the person. Certainly testing person's abilities is not the primary function of education but it is actually important.
On July 30 2012 05:23 Cheerio wrote: 1. From what I know the brain continues to develop untill age 16 or something close. So some subjects that actually require intelligent thinking is required for youths to develop. History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect.
2. Algebra is actually very good for estimating intelligence. While nearly all subjects test only dedication and amount of effort a person puts into studying, algebra tests not only that but also the intelligence of the person. Certainly testing person's abilities is not the primary function of education but it is actually important.
If algebra was great at estimating intelligence, I wouldn't even be able to speak (or type) right now because I couldn't learn words and how to combine them into sentences. That's how dumb I would be if algebra was a great indicator of intelligence, my friend. Fortunately it doesn't seem so....
On July 30 2012 04:08 StarStrider wrote: If there is an excessive amount of dropouts from Algebra, the methods need to be reexamined. To consider eliminating the course because it is 'too hard' is the biggest load of bullshit.
While not used directly in many career fields, Algebra is one of those qualifying courses that lets students realize their potential for more advanced maths used in aviation, electrical engineering, and other advanced sciences. Without making it mandatory, students who excel in it will never have a chance to realize their potential, and programs will never have the opportunity to discover their future candidates. Removing the course appeals to the laziness in people... If it is optional, most people will take the path of least resistance and avoid it.
Algebra is not absolutely neccessary for everyone, but is absolutely comprehendable for everyone, if they aren't learning it they either aren't putting forth enough effort or the curriculum or method of education is poor. And the value it provides for, at very least mental stimulation and advanced problem solving, and at most qualifying more advanced math students, is superb. LONG LIVE ALGEBRA
I feel like lots of people are misreading the article. Quoting from the end:
Yes, young people should learn to read and write and do long division, whether they want to or not. But there is no reason to force them to grasp vectorial angles and discontinuous functions. Think of math as a huge boulder we make everyone pull, without assessing what all this pain achieves. So why require it, without alternatives or exceptions? Thus far I haven’t found a compelling answer.
He's not saying that because its hard therefore we should eliminate it, people are turning into moral crusaders based on that simple misunderstanding. He's saying he doesn't think its necessary for people to go through training in Algebra if they won't end up using it meaningfully in their lives; and since it is obviously a huge stumbling block for many students according to the statistics and experts he cited, then it should clearly be reviewed for removal.
If it were absolutely necessary, like long division and reading and writing, then he wouldn't bring this up. If people would simply read the article more carefully I feel like most of the uproar would die down and we could discuss the substantive issue of how algebra is used in our day to day lives.
On July 30 2012 04:36 ZeGzoR wrote: Wow, some people dont get why they teach math in schools. Its not because the math stuff have use outside of class, its for developing logical thinking,,,
Isn't the logical counter to this argument that math isn't the *only* subject that teaches logical thinking? I mean really, do you believe that you can't be logical if you don't learn math? Off the top of my head, what about philosophy class, or critical analysis of classic literature? Clearly you don't need math to learn how to think critically or logically; its just a useful tool towards that end. But if it largely teaches unnecessary things, then why not skip it and focus on things that are more relevant to students lives?
Anyway I don't have any conclusive opinion on this issue, but it is good to review what is being taught and how useful it is.
The fundamental issue with the article is that it assumes you begin learning skills for your career in high school. Which it's not. It prepares you for college. I doubt a 13 year old knows whether or not he's going to be a lawyer. And I think a lot of 13 year-olds would elect not to take algebra if it were optional.
He also begins by citing drop out statistics and implies its due to Algebra, and THEN brings up the point that learning Algebra, a subject some students may never use, can dissuade them from pursuing further education. Which is bullshit. Virtually every basic subject in high school has a very low chance of being used by any student in their future careers.
At what point do we elect to have every class optional to the point a high school diploma becomes more meaningless than it already is? If we're going to draw a line it should be drawn at algebra. If students can't pass algebra then they shouldn't be granted a diploma. How are they going to learn any subject that's tedious and difficult in college if they can't pass Algebra? The issue isn't algebra, it's students -- which likely stems from schools/teachers/parents. I feel like some posters and this author especially don't have enough appreciation for being educated.
On July 30 2012 05:23 Cheerio wrote: 1. From what I know the brain continues to develop untill age 16 or something close. So some subjects that actually require intelligent thinking is required for youths to develop. History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect.
2. Algebra is actually very good for estimating intelligence. While nearly all subjects test only dedication and amount of effort a person puts into studying, algebra tests not only that but also the intelligence of the person. Certainly testing person's abilities is not the primary function of education but it is actually important.
If algebra was great at estimating intelligence, I wouldn't even be able to speak (or type) right now because I couldn't learn words and how to combine them into sentences. That's how dumb I would be if algebra was a great indicator of intelligence, my friend. Fortunately it doesn't seem so....
not being able to put words into sentences is the sign of mental retardation, not low intelligence. Though connected those are totally different things.
The main issue with these posts seems to be people overestimating the average american high schooler. They are really dumb, like, really really dumb. Just because you cant understand how someone cant do basic algebra, doesnt mean they can.
Ive always been a fan of the tier based teaching. The better you do the higher tier you are in. The lowest tiers take the 'standard exam' where its way easier but has a max C, the higher tiers take the normal exam, and the top tier does exams early etc. It means that everyone is taught at least basic maths, without holding back the smart people.
I can't help but disagree. Given the argument in OP, the whole education system needs to be re-evaluated in figuring out what to teach kids. Yes a lot of math would likely not be used by many people in their future lives, but neither would history, social studies, biology, etc. Why not then give high school students complete freedom in what they want to take and fill up a credits system just like universities?
My picture of the current education cycle is that elementary and high schools give everyone the general knowledge they need across a bunch of fields to move on to do whatever they want to after that. Math is exactly the same case. You never know when you'll need to use graphs, curves, logarithms and whatever. As far as I remember, algebra in high school only deals with stuff like a=5, b = 6, what is a + b? If you can't even do that(yea of course there's more to it) how will you deal with the more advanced stuff you never expected to encounter.
Its not about preparing children with the bare minimum or 'just what they need' for their post-secondary education. Because honestly most kids in high school don't know what they want to go into, much less what knowledge they need to possess in order to do that. I really don't think there's misdirecting resources in teaching children all the general knowledge like there is today. Math might be really difficult for many people at the high school age, teachers could be more lenient with the marking or lower requirements and whatever, but the knowledge has to be there.
On July 30 2012 05:23 Cheerio wrote: 1. From what I know the brain continues to develop untill age 16 or something close. So some subjects that actually require intelligent thinking is required for youths to develop. History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect.
2. Algebra is actually very good for estimating intelligence. While nearly all subjects test only dedication and amount of effort a person puts into studying, algebra tests not only that but also the intelligence of the person. Certainly testing person's abilities is not the primary function of education but it is actually important.
If algebra was great at estimating intelligence, I wouldn't even be able to speak (or type) right now because I couldn't learn words and how to combine them into sentences. That's how dumb I would be if algebra was a great indicator of intelligence, my friend. Fortunately it doesn't seem so....
not being able to put words into sentences is the sign of mental retardation, not low intelligence. Though connected those are totally different things.
Well,a mentally retarded person is usually one who goes below an intelligence quotient of 70.
What is low intelligence to you? Because I took an IQ test when I was in elementary school (was necessary to get in) and I wasn't anywhere near 'below average' yet, like I said previously in this thread, I failed college algebra three times and I studied for it hardcore. With a private tutor. Over the span of two years. Yet, I don't have low intelligence.............I still today can not understand very rudimentary, basic mathematics. The only reason I even passed college algebra was because the teacher basically put a cheat exam and dropped an exam grade (of 3 total exams) so nobody could fail.
I didn't pass high school algebra after a couple tries, either.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
EDIT: BTW, the current numbers for that poll: 40: 72k 0: 1.9 million 20: 420k 15: 782k
I agree we are much worse at math than we should be, but this is just a silly poll designed to confuse people. Parentheses exists for a reason, and nobody would ever write a problem like that. People don't memorize PEMDA because these problems don't exist in the real world. Anyone who writes obfuscated math like that deserves to be slapped.
It's ridiculously easy anyways. PEMDAS is though during elementary school and mistakes like this are just disappointing. I blame not only the education system but the people in it. They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life.
"History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
"They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life."
I don't know math and I have no desire to learn it but I know that I have more willpower than most and am constantly learning. With all your math skills you are not intelligent enough to not generalize and stereotypes groups of people. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say? How has math made you smarter, more resolved or have a stronger desire to learn. I know you fall short compared to me, people who judge like you always do.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
On July 30 2012 05:54 UrsusRex wrote: "They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life."
I don't know math and I have no desire to learn it but I know that I have more willpower than most and am constantly learning. With all your math skills you are not intelligent enough to not generalize and stereotypes groups of people. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say? How has math made you smarter, more resolved or have a stronger desire to learn. I know you fall short compared to me, people who judge like you always do.
It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks...
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
On July 30 2012 05:54 UrsusRex wrote: "They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life."
I don't know math and I have no desire to learn it but I know that I have more willpower than most and am constantly learning. With all your math skills you are not intelligent enough to not generalize and stereotypes groups of people. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say? How has math made you smarter, more resolved or have a stronger desire to learn. I know you fall short compared to me, people who judge like you always do.
It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks...
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
It's not necessary for most adults. But students have nothing better to do than take more math and most highschool students probably should work harder and do more hard sciences. I only took through pre calc in hs and wish I worked harder and did more. Like most HS students though, I was pretty fucking lazy.
I really miss back when teamliquid threads didn't just blow up like a bomb and burn themselves out. It was nice to have my comment on the same page twice in one day Nice to discuss.
On July 30 2012 05:10 W2 wrote: algebra is like plus minus multiply and divide right? Anything extra is not really needed unless you're going into mathematics
Algebra is when you start having variables.
I don't think the average person uses variables in their every day life though.
I'm a computer engineering student. I've felt like much of what I was learning was useless since high school. Back then my mathematics was actually quite good and I scored 800 on the math SAT's. It really isn't that big of a deal as a tenth of the population can score over 700, but I felt good about it. Feeling good about math probably got me to choose the major that I did. The author being a poli-sci major probably did not do as well in math.
Come college, I really let myself down by not studying enough. I started to hate college calculus and ended up failing calc 2. I stil think some parts of calculus are useful: The stuff under the line is just the integral! XD, but I never use calculus.
You can't just say that everything can be learned on the job though. While it is true that things can be learned on the job, and most people say that everything is learned on the job, learning things beforehand gives you an advantage in the candidate screening process. It also gives you a little bit to learn from before you start googling to do your job. Because when you start a job, unless it's an apprenticeship, no one is going to give you the time to go through an entire bash tutorial to write a shell script.
I had no idea that the United States had such high dropout rates or that so many people didn't do well in math. That's really unfortunate.
I think education can and should be reformed. That the old way of teaching people just isn't very exciting, motivating, or useful. I agree with the author on this point. But dissecting shakespeare is just as useless to most people's future careers as calculating standard deviations is. Rather than calculating standard deviations students could just be taught what causality is, and why saying one thing does not necessarily mean another.
Even in teamliquid threads I see people arguing things that are not causal or proveable. That are not even instinctive. They don't understand the logic behind win rates so when one champion or one race has a higher win rate than another they think that's undeniable proof that something is overpowered.
On July 30 2012 05:22 Felnarion wrote: For me, it's this: We have people who don't get math, they're just not going to get it, and the jobs they're going to perform likely won't need it. Should we force them to retake the same classes, repeatedly, causing them to possibly go so far as drop out of high school for a class that its arguable if they'll ever need?
These people need to be helped. All kids should get 1 on 1 time, but what if they still don't get it? Do we just leave them to rot in the school, until they get tired of it, and quit? I think we need to look at alternatives.
Well I agree that being totally bad at algebra should not be the reason people drop out from school. Let them have their low grade and move on. I mean algebra should be necessary, being good at it shouldnt. So the problem is not in algebra but in school graduation system.
On July 30 2012 05:59 obesechicken13 wrote: I really miss back when teamliquid threads didn't just blow up like a bomb and burn themselves out. It was nice to have my comment on the same page twice in one day Nice to discuss.
Agreed. You just cant realistically follow the discussion when there is so much post coming in. You just go in, state an opinion and get out.
'This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed."
Math is a reaction to the environment around us, the events and cultures of the past and their desire to conquer the envrinment is why math was developed beyond collecting taxes. The societies, culture and history of our race dictates how, why and what math we use. On a more clerical note math wouldnt exist if history had not recorded it and made sure it was passed down as knowledge. There is NO enimity between math and history and math is useless without history, literature and geography and all of them are useless without math.
"When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial."
You say that buts its not really true, science is not encesarry humanity lived long before it was developed and the arts existed long before math. You can not remove human culture and expect math to replace it. I guarantee you there are just as many people every day using their knowledge of history, geography, and literature to pass laws, build roads, design cities, manage conflicts. You associate math and science as they are the exact same subject but math is a tool needed in different situations. Math is as much a part of history as is science.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
On July 30 2012 05:54 UrsusRex wrote: "They are complacent because they have no resolve or drive to learn. Perseverance is a skill that is necessary throughout life."
I don't know math and I have no desire to learn it but I know that I have more willpower than most and am constantly learning. With all your math skills you are not intelligent enough to not generalize and stereotypes groups of people. Why should anyone listen to what you have to say? How has math made you smarter, more resolved or have a stronger desire to learn. I know you fall short compared to me, people who judge like you always do.
It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks...
Actually would correct to say "if ALL mathtmaticians AND scientists AND engineers , etc... disappeared", as all of them have to do a lot fo math. I don't know how school system works in other countries, but here in Italy those engineers who can't find a job can still go teaching math at high school...
If u think Algebra is useless... well just be aware that here in Italy in "liceo scientifico" and "liceo classico"(wich are respectively the most difficult scientific and humanistic high school) students must learn latin... pretty useless, wouldn't u say? Still it really help improving logical thought.
Just one more thing... everyone(not retarded) can learn high school math just by putting effort on it... if u do not it's obvious u get 1-2 more years of school
"It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks..."
It wasn't its a truth I have observed more times than I can recall. People who make broad declarations about groups of people are never intelligent enough to make those judgements. That is not a fallacy it is reality.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
Keep algebra, challenge everyone. If people crap out of algebra, give them the chance to excel at something else and let them through based on those merits. Everyone wins. Unless you excel at nothing. But then at least those people were give even chance to be great before being great.
The absolute worst case scenario is a dumbed down curriculum, devoid of anything interesting or hard just to placate the stupid and lazy. It just creates people devoid of independent thought, which would be boring.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
It's not maths that is not far from theoritical physics, it's theoritical physics which gets close to maths, if you see what I mean. Hey, General Relativity is done by the maths department at my school.
On July 30 2012 06:04 UrsusRex wrote: "It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks..."
It wasn't its a truth I have observed more times than I can recall. People who make borad declarations about groups of people are never intelligent enough to make those judgements. That is not a fallacy it is reality.
How ironic that it is you here that making broad declarations about groups of people.
People don't really need ancient history, poem analysis skills or the ability to run 3000 meters. Yet that is mandatory too. Why? because the school system is made to create smart, upstanding citizens. You might not need those skills in everyday life, but the act of getting those skills helps you develop to a better human. And it is very good for any country to have a well-educated public.
"How ironic that it is you here that making broad declarations about groups of people."
Actually its an accurate observation. It would be a broad declaration if I did not meet these people and did not have this experience dealing with others. Nice try though.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
Yeah, so our definitions are quite different. Reminds me of a quote by a math professor:
"They were applied mathematicians, at best." - Kiran Kedlaya, discussing Ford-Fulkerson
I'd argue that theoretical physics is, like pure mathematics, pretty close to art--they're looking for things like the Grand Unified Theory basically for aesthetic reasons, appealing to the symmetry of nature. A theoretical physicist or mathematician appreciates a beautiful theory much more than an ugly one.
On July 30 2012 06:04 UrsusRex wrote: "It's interesting that someone who works in social science would resort to ad hominem attacks..."
It wasn't its a truth I have observed more times than I can recall. People who make broad declarations about groups of people are never intelligent enough to make those judgements. That is not a fallacy it is reality.
On July 30 2012 06:10 UrsusRex wrote: "How ironic that it is you here that making broad declarations about groups of people."
Actually its an accurate observation. It would be a broad declaration if I did not meet these people and did not have this experience dealing with others. Nice try though.
Regardless of whether your observation is "accurate" or not, you are being exactly the kind of person you're describing...
"People don't really need ancient history, poem analysis skills or the ability to run 3000 meters. Yet that is mandatory too. Why? because the school system is made to create smart, upstanding citizens. You might not need those skills in everyday life, but the act of getting those skills helps you develop to a better human. And it is very good for any country to have a well-educated public. "
No one is arguing the necessity of teaching math. Its whether or not algebra should be taught in high school and if it gives an benefits to society compared to teaching something else.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
Yeah, so our definitions are quite different. Reminds me of a quote by a math professor:
"They were applied mathematicians, at best." - Kiran Kedlaya, discussing Ford-Fulkerson
I'd argue that theoretical physics is, like pure mathematics, pretty close to art--they're looking for things like the Grand Unified Theory basically for aesthetic reasons, appealing to the symmetry of nature. A theoretical physicist or mathematician appreciates a beautiful theory much more than an ugly one.
Tbh, as a physicist, I really must disagree that its anything like an art. While Im more on the applied side, ive done a fair share of theory, and its really not artsy imo.
Highschool math is not difficult, don't try to cut things from the curriculum to 'fix' the problem of poor grades and dropouts. Fix the lack of effort students are putting in and how poor the education system is right now.
"Regardless of whether your observation is "accurate" or not, you are being exactly the kind of person you're describing..."
Maybe so but I don't care since I know what I'm talking about and feel no guilt calling out those who judge and bselessly denigrate others.. If it bothers you thats your problem.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
Yeah, so our definitions are quite different. Reminds me of a quote by a math professor:
"They were applied mathematicians, at best." - Kiran Kedlaya, discussing Ford-Fulkerson
I'd argue that theoretical physics is, like pure mathematics, pretty close to art--they're looking for things like the Grand Unified Theory basically for aesthetic reasons, appealing to the symmetry of nature. A theoretical physicist or mathematician appreciates a beautiful theory much more than an ugly one.
Tbh, as a physicist, I really must disagree that its anything like an art. While Im more on the applied side, ive done a fair share of theory, and its really not artsy imo.
Really? You don't appreciate a beautiful theory?
The symmetry of the standard model? The elegance of Maxwell's equations? Images like this?
Yes, I agree that the motivation behind physics and art is completely different---in physics, you seek to understand why things are, whereas in art, you want to understand how you perceive things to be. But that doesn't mean physics should be a stark world of data and numbers and operators. You do physics because you find it, in some sense, beautiful.
Everyone should at least get a taste of the beauty a mathematician sees in mathematics.
On July 30 2012 06:20 UrsusRex wrote: "Regardless of whether your observation is "accurate" or not, you are being exactly the kind of person you're describing..."
Maybe so but I don't care since I know what I'm talking about and feel no guilt calling out those who judge and bselessly denigrate others.. If it bothers you thats your problem.
For some reason I'm beginning to doubt any future success you might have in your field considering you said that you've passed college and yet continue to write like a teenager.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
I honestly think that if the kids are not capable of learning high school algebra, then they probably don't have the motivation to do much beyond high school either.
If you wanna judge me and my future based on my spelling in an online forum you go ahead. I find myself suprisingly indifferent to your conclusions. Oh btw you're also a hypocrite for resorting to ad hominem yourself. I'm starting to see why you were so sensitive. So you will forigve me for not caring about your opinion.
On July 30 2012 06:35 UrsusRex wrote: If you wanna judge me and my future based on my spelling in an online forum you go ahead. I find myself suprisingly indifferent to your conclusions. Oh btw you're also a hypocrite for resorting to ad hominem yourself. I'm starting to see why you were so sensitive. So you will forigve me for not caring about your opinion.
But I never said that I was opposed to them, see. That was all you.
On July 30 2012 06:19 IcedBacon wrote: Highschool math is not difficult, don't try to cut things from the curriculum to 'fix' the problem of poor grades and dropouts. Fix the lack of effort students are putting in and how poor the education system is right now.
Most people are never going to give a shit about algebra, and they will only care about getting laid, getting drunk, and getting cashflow (who can blame them?).
You're not going to fix the lack of effort cuz WE DONT GIVE A FUCK.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. So you cant get rid of the mathematicians without losing scientists and engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
This is quite ass-backward reasoning IMO. Did my highschool choice of geography help me at all in my career? No. But could I have known that when I took it? No, probably not. What would you like to teach at highschool level that will help 100% of people later in life, no matter what career they went into? You'd be hard pressed to put together even a single subject curriculum out of this.
The other issue is that higher institutions use aggregate test scores like fucking GearScore. Entry into specific faculties should be determined and weighted on a range of subjects deemed relevant to the faculty. That would fix the penalties associated with being bad at math. Unless every other applicant is both good at the relevant subjects AND good at math, then you're kinda screwed.
On top of this, a well-educated citizenry is an asset that any country can leverage. It makes people less prone to scams, stretches and exercises their cognitive capabilities at a young age when they are the most malleable and most able to absorb and expand their minds. A race to the bottom is idiotic.
Neither is reading. Or talking. Or having arms. Or walking.
The whole basis for "I won't use this, therefor people don't need it" is retarded. History (wikipedia), geography (google maps), vocabulary (spell checkers, online thesaurus), and basically every subject is "useless". As far as it goes, and despite mathematics not being taught well, high school math is the closest thing to critical thinking that is taught there.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
I agree 100% with the second sentence, though I was responding to a post which specifically said "mathematicians"; to me, a mathematician is someone who engages in pure mathematics research, rather than someone who uses some form of undergraduate-level math.
Most pure mathematics today has, frankly, no applications in real life, and mathematicians are entirely content with this. (If you call combinatorics "pure," then maybe it has some applications; geometry and "mathematical physics" are related, but it's questionable whether even the latter is "applicable"; and number theory is used in cryptography. But I really doubt anything like the Green-Tao theorem or Jacob Lurie's work in algebraic geometry will be "useful" in our lifetimes.)
"But I never said that I was opposed to them, see. That was all you."
I never said you or I were opposed to them. If you attack others for something you do that makes you a hypocrite regardless of your feelings or intentions. You were the one who tried to condemn me by accusing me of it, and now that you have done the same you ignore it. My problem is with those who judge baselessly.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
If the human race wants to continue living then we should be discovering all the pure math we possibly can because history has shown that pure math becomes applied math once geniuses find connections. I might not be smart enough but in the next 1000 years a genius may find a connection between the Riemann Zeta function and the expanding universe, or the natural logarithm will help us create virtual teleportation. The future lies in these ideas.
Algebra, like 95% of the courses everyone takes in high school is not necessary. Science, english, history, PE, art, etc - all generally trivial knowledge and/or useless when taken at a high school level. But education isn't just about learning trivial information, or learning just exactly what you need. The whole process of early education is supposed to teach the child to think critically, to be able to learn for themselves, and find general enjoyment and/or passion for education and learning so that it carries on to their future. You need this passion or at least general enjoyment if you want the child to succeed or even do marginally well in whatever field he wants he wants to do (even gaming)! Yes a few lucky talented people can excel in a field without finishing any education, but the vast majority of those who drop end up achieving nothing because they don't know how. The vast majority of those who at least finish high school have the minimum intelligence and drive to know how to achieve something, even if sometimes laziness still gets the better of them.
America, if you want to keep hiding your children from failure, go ahead - you will only bring upon them DEEPER failures, ones that you will never help them get out of. There's a reason other countries "don't have as much trouble" with algebra - they suck it up, and aren't nancy boy's.
Let's specifically take another look at Algebra - this is not that difficult subject! People have been doing it for centuries with less education tools and knowledge available to them. Perhaps if this were calculus or quantum electrodynamics we could make a commitment to prevent that subject from ruining people's academic lives. But algebra has been around for centuries, and most children around the world don't have a problem with it! Talk about whiny parents who have no stomach to discipline their child.
On July 30 2012 06:45 Forsy wrote: Algebra, like 95% of the courses everyone takes in high school is not necessary. Science, english, history, PE, art, etc - all generally trivial knowledge and/or useless when taken at a high school level. Also, education isn't just about learning trivial information, or learning just exactly what you need. The whole process of early education is supposed to teach the child to think critically, to be able to learn for themselves, and find general enjoyment and/or passion for education and learning so that it carries on to their future. Most of the cases of algebra failure are a combination of poor teachers, economic factors, psychological issues or just plain laziness. Fix and support kids with those issues, and let the lazy people fail and learn the hard way, since nothing will stop their descent anyway.
America, if you want to keep hiding your children from failure, go ahead - you will only bring upon them DEEPER failures, ones that you will never help them get out of. There's a reason those other countries "don't have as much trouble" with algebra - they suck it up, and aren't nancy boy's.
Let's take another look at Algebra - this is not that difficult subject! Perhaps if this were calculus or quantum electrodynamics we could make a commitment to prevent that subject from ruining people's academic lives. But algebra has been around for centuries, and most children around the world don't have a problem with it! Talk about whiny parents who have no stomach to discipline their child!
Centuries? Calculus has been around for centuries. Algebra? Thousands of years.
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject.
On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
I agree 100% with the second sentence, though I was responding to a post which specifically said "mathematicians"; to me, a mathematician is someone who engages in pure mathematics research, rather than someone who uses some form of undergraduate-level math.
Most pure mathematics today has, frankly, no applications in real life, and mathematicians are entirely content with this. (If you call combinatorics "pure," then maybe it has some applications; geometry and "mathematical physics" are related, but it's questionable whether even the latter is "applicable"; and number theory is used in cryptography. But I really doubt anything like the Green-Tao theorem or Jacob Lurie's work in algebraic geometry will be "useful" in our lifetimes.)
Just because someone else did that for you, doesn't mean it's not useful for you. I guess if you look just around you right now there are few things that there would still be without someone having the knowledge based on math.
On July 30 2012 06:45 Forsy wrote: Algebra, like 95% of the courses everyone takes in high school is not necessary. Science, english, history, PE, art, etc - all generally trivial knowledge and/or useless when taken at a high school level. Also, education isn't just about learning trivial information, or learning just exactly what you need. The whole process of early education is supposed to teach the child to think critically, to be able to learn for themselves, and find general enjoyment and/or passion for education and learning so that it carries on to their future. Most of the cases of algebra failure are a combination of poor teachers, economic factors, psychological issues or just plain laziness. Fix and support kids with those issues, and let the lazy people fail and learn the hard way, since nothing will stop their descent anyway.
America, if you want to keep hiding your children from failure, go ahead - you will only bring upon them DEEPER failures, ones that you will never help them get out of. There's a reason those other countries "don't have as much trouble" with algebra - they suck it up, and aren't nancy boy's.
Let's take another look at Algebra - this is not that difficult subject! Perhaps if this were calculus or quantum electrodynamics we could make a commitment to prevent that subject from ruining people's academic lives. But algebra has been around for centuries, and most children around the world don't have a problem with it! Talk about whiny parents who have no stomach to discipline their child!
Centuries? Calculus has been around for centuries. Algebra? Thousands of years.
Yes, another of those "important" trivial points about my argument.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
I agree 100% with the second sentence, though I was responding to a post which specifically said "mathematicians"; to me, a mathematician is someone who engages in pure mathematics research, rather than someone who uses some form of undergraduate-level math.
Most pure mathematics today has, frankly, no applications in real life, and mathematicians are entirely content with this. (If you call combinatorics "pure," then maybe it has some applications; geometry and "mathematical physics" are related, but it's questionable whether even the latter is "applicable"; and number theory is used in cryptography. But I really doubt anything like the Green-Tao theorem or Jacob Lurie's work in algebraic geometry will be "useful" in our lifetimes.)
Just because someone else did that for you, doesn't mean it's not useful for you. I guess if you look just around you right now there are few things that there would still be without someone having the knowledge based on math.
I'm certainly not in the "don't teach math" camp... read my posts I'm saying that math is over-emphasized as a "useful" subject as opposed to something that's fun and interesting. Of course most of our technology required some sort of careful computation, but teaching someone to memorize a formula to do that computation is not as good as trying to give them a good understanding of how the formula was derived and the motivation behind it.
On July 30 2012 06:41 Kazius wrote: Is algebra necessary?
no.
Neither is reading. Or talking. Or having arms. Or walking.
The whole basis for "I won't use this, therefor people don't need it" is retarded. History (wikipedia), geography (google maps), vocabulary (spell checkers, online thesaurus), and basically every subject is "useless". As far as it goes, and despite mathematics not being taught well, high school math is the closest thing to critical thinking that is taught there.
Er... reading, talking, arms, and walking have clear applications to any modern person's life, and are likely to be used extensively. Of course, arithmetic has a lot of applications, too, and real-number algebra is really just arithmetic 2.0
On July 30 2012 06:45 Forsy wrote: Algebra, like 95% of the courses everyone takes in high school is not necessary. Science, english, history, PE, art, etc - all generally trivial knowledge and/or useless when taken at a high school level. Also, education isn't just about learning trivial information, or learning just exactly what you need. The whole process of early education is supposed to teach the child to think critically, to be able to learn for themselves, and find general enjoyment and/or passion for education and learning so that it carries on to their future. Most of the cases of algebra failure are a combination of poor teachers, economic factors, psychological issues or just plain laziness. Fix and support kids with those issues, and let the lazy people fail and learn the hard way, since nothing will stop their descent anyway.
America, if you want to keep hiding your children from failure, go ahead - you will only bring upon them DEEPER failures, ones that you will never help them get out of. There's a reason those other countries "don't have as much trouble" with algebra - they suck it up, and aren't nancy boy's.
Let's take another look at Algebra - this is not that difficult subject! Perhaps if this were calculus or quantum electrodynamics we could make a commitment to prevent that subject from ruining people's academic lives. But algebra has been around for centuries, and most children around the world don't have a problem with it! Talk about whiny parents who have no stomach to discipline their child!
Centuries? Calculus has been around for centuries. Algebra? Thousands of years.
not really, algebra as we know it(equation, variables etc) didn't exist up to... '500 at least? Ofc BASIC algebra exists back to Greeks, but...
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
Before I read this article, I was of the opinion that if you can't learn algebra, you either have some mental disorder or lacked the motivation. After knowing about the high drop-out rate supposedly do to algebra, I'm no longer so sure.
I think there are three issues here:
1) Motivation: Culture (as I've mentioned before) explains the lack of motivation - hard to say would can be done to address this, but the whole space race decades ago definitely energized the public.
2) Actual math incapability: If it is in fact some sort of disorder, we shouldn't fail high school because of this. High school is just the last stage of non-specialized general education. After all, we don't explicitly fail students with dyslexia. Perhaps we need special education classes for students that absolutely suck at math?
3) Higher education rigor: I think it's absolutely fine for colleges to be very rigorous. But there should be more types of degrees or schools that don't require math. That would definitely be less prestigious then degrees that do require a math (and the rest of the standard basic requirements) since it would be less flexible, but that's okay. A college degree is a privilege that you must earn. Any pussy-footing about that "earning" part just diminished the value of the degree, and leads to abhorrent phenomena like grade inflation. Can't get a certain degree? Choose another one (even if less prestigious) that better fits your skills.
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Well we can actually say that all scientists (in technological sector) and engineers are mathematicians but not all mathematicians are scientists or engineers. Mathematics by itself is pretty useless, but its applications are impossible to overestimate.
I agree 100% with the second sentence, though I was responding to a post which specifically said "mathematicians"; to me, a mathematician is someone who engages in pure mathematics research, rather than someone who uses some form of undergraduate-level math.
Most pure mathematics today has, frankly, no applications in real life, and mathematicians are entirely content with this. (If you call combinatorics "pure," then maybe it has some applications; geometry and "mathematical physics" are related, but it's questionable whether even the latter is "applicable"; and number theory is used in cryptography. But I really doubt anything like the Green-Tao theorem or Jacob Lurie's work in algebraic geometry will be "useful" in our lifetimes.)
Just because someone else did that for you, doesn't mean it's not useful for you. I guess if you look just around you right now there are few things that there would still be without someone having the knowledge based on math.
I'm certainly not in the "don't teach math" camp... read my posts I'm saying that math is over-emphasized as a "useful" subject as opposed to something that's fun and interesting. Of course most of our technology required some sort of careful computation, but teaching someone to memorize a formula to do that computation is not as good as trying to give them a good understanding of how the formula was derived and the motivation behind it.
I think we should define what "useful" means. If u think "useful" means something that u can use on work, well, all high school is useless. But pls, read my post, I made the latin example there.
Just to point it out even "teaching someone do memorize a formula" can be useful.. maybe someone who really is bad at math and will never again in its life do anything related to math... well, u can teach him how to put effort in what he's expected to do. If he doesn't he'll just learn what failing means, and maybe learn something about life.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
That's funny because I've worked in software development and in scientific research.
Most of either require no mathematics whatsoever. Some work in scientific research or software development may require recognition of the results of mathematics. Please go back to my post and read my brief and crude introduction of what a mathematician is.
A TYPICAL American school day finds some six million high school students and two million college freshmen struggling with algebra. In both high school and college, all too many students are expected to fail. Why do we subject American students to this ordeal? I’ve found myself moving toward the strong view that we shouldn’t.
My question extends beyond algebra and applies more broadly to the usual mathematics sequence, from geometry through calculus. State regents and legislators — and much of the public — take it as self-evident that every young person should be made to master polynomial functions and parametric equations.
There are many defenses of algebra and the virtue of learning it. Most of them sound reasonable on first hearing; many of them I once accepted. But the more I examine them, the clearer it seems that they are largely or wholly wrong — unsupported by research or evidence, or based on wishful logic. (I’m not talking about quantitative skills, critical for informed citizenship and personal finance, but a very different ballgame.)
This debate matters. Making mathematics mandatory prevents us from discovering and developing young talent. In the interest of maintaining rigor, we’re actually depleting our pool of brainpower. I say this as a writer and social scientist whose work relies heavily on the use of numbers. My aim is not to spare students from a difficult subject, but to call attention to the real problems we are causing by misdirecting precious resources.
The toll mathematics takes begins early. To our nation’s shame, one in four ninth graders fail to finish high school. In South Carolina, 34 percent fell away in 2008-9, according to national data released last year; for Nevada, it was 45 percent. Most of the educators I’ve talked with cite algebra as the major academic reason.
Shirley Bagwell, a longtime Tennessee teacher, warns that “to expect all students to master algebra will cause more students to drop out.” For those who stay in school, there are often “exit exams,” almost all of which contain an algebra component. In Oklahoma, 33 percent failed to pass last year, as did 35 percent in West Virginia.
Algebra is an onerous stumbling block for all kinds of students: disadvantaged and affluent, black and white. In New Mexico, 43 percent of white students fell below “proficient,” along with 39 percent in Tennessee. Even well-endowed schools have otherwise talented students who are impeded by algebra, to say nothing of calculus and trigonometry.
California’s two university systems, for instance, consider applications only from students who have taken three years of mathematics and in that way exclude many applicants who might excel in fields like art or history. Community college students face an equally prohibitive mathematics wall. A study of two-year schools found that fewer than a quarter of their entrants passed the algebra classes they were required to take.
“There are students taking these courses three, four, five times,” says Barbara Bonham of Appalachian State University. While some ultimately pass, she adds, “many drop out.”
Another dropout statistic should cause equal chagrin. Of all who embark on higher education, only 58 percent end up with bachelor’s degrees. The main impediment to graduation: freshman math. The City University of New York, where I have taught since 1971, found that 57 percent of its students didn’t pass its mandated algebra course. The depressing conclusion of a faculty report: “failing math at all levels affects retention more than any other academic factor.” A national sample of transcripts found mathematics had twice as many F’s and D’s compared as other subjects.
Nor will just passing grades suffice. Many colleges seek to raise their status by setting a high mathematics bar. Hence, they look for 700 on the math section of the SAT, a height attained in 2009 by only 9 percent of men and 4 percent of women. And it’s not just Ivy League colleges that do this: at schools like Vanderbilt, Rice and Washington University in St. Louis, applicants had best be legacies or athletes if they have scored less than 700 on their math SATs.
It’s true that students in Finland, South Korea and Canada score better on mathematics tests. But it’s their perseverance, not their classroom algebra, that fits them for demanding jobs.
Nor is it clear that the math we learn in the classroom has any relation to the quantitative reasoning we need on the job. John P. Smith III, an educational psychologist at Michigan State University who has studied math education, has found that “mathematical reasoning in workplaces differs markedly from the algorithms taught in school.” Even in jobs that rely on so-called STEM credentials — science, technology, engineering, math — considerable training occurs after hiring, including the kinds of computations that will be required. Toyota, for example, recently chose to locate a plant in a remote Mississippi county, even though its schools are far from stellar. It works with a nearby community college, which has tailored classes in “machine tool mathematics.”
That sort of collaboration has long undergirded German apprenticeship programs. I fully concur that high-tech knowledge is needed to sustain an advanced industrial economy. But we’re deluding ourselves if we believe the solution is largely academic.
A skeptic might argue that, even if our current mathematics education discourages large numbers of students, math itself isn’t to blame. Isn’t this discipline a critical part of education, providing quantitative tools and honing conceptual abilities that are indispensable — especially in our high tech age? In fact, we hear it argued that we have a shortage of graduates with STEM credentials.
Of course, people should learn basic numerical skills: decimals, ratios and estimating, sharpened by a good grounding in arithmetic. But a definitive analysis by the Georgetown Center on Education and the Workforce forecasts that in the decade ahead a mere 5 percent of entry-level workers will need to be proficient in algebra or above. And if there is a shortage of STEM graduates, an equally crucial issue is how many available positions there are for men and women with these skills. A January 2012 analysis from the Georgetown center found 7.5 percent unemployment for engineering graduates and 8.2 percent among computer scientists.
Peter Braunfeld of the University of Illinois tells his students, “Our civilization would collapse without mathematics.” He’s absolutely right.
Algebraic algorithms underpin animated movies, investment strategies and airline ticket prices. And we need people to understand how those things work and to advance our frontiers.
Quantitative literacy clearly is useful in weighing all manner of public policies, from the Affordable Care Act, to the costs and benefits of environmental regulation, to the impact of climate change. Being able to detect and identify ideology at work behind the numbers is of obvious use. Ours is fast becoming a statistical age, which raises the bar for informed citizenship. What is needed is not textbook formulas but greater understanding of where various numbers come from, and what they actually convey.
What of the claim that mathematics sharpens our minds and makes us more intellectually adept as individuals and a citizen body? It’s true that mathematics requires mental exertion. But there’s no evidence that being able to prove (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² leads to more credible political opinions or social analysis.
Many of those who struggled through a traditional math regimen feel that doing so annealed their character. This may or may not speak to the fact that institutions and occupations often install prerequisites just to look rigorous — hardly a rational justification for maintaining so many mathematics mandates. Certification programs for veterinary technicians require algebra, although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status.
It’s not hard to understand why Caltech and M.I.T. want everyone to be proficient in mathematics. But it’s not easy to see why potential poets and philosophers face a lofty mathematics bar. Demanding algebra across the board actually skews a student body, not necessarily for the better.
I WANT to end on a positive note. Mathematics, both pure and applied, is integral to our civilization, whether the realm is aesthetic or electronic. But for most adults, it is more feared or revered than understood. It’s clear that requiring algebra for everyone has not increased our appreciation of a calling someone once called “the poetry of the universe.” (How many college graduates remember what Fermat’s dilemma was all about?)
Instead of investing so much of our academic energy in a subject that blocks further attainment for much of our population, I propose that we start thinking about alternatives. Thus mathematics teachers at every level could create exciting courses in what I call “citizen statistics.” This would not be a backdoor version of algebra, as in the Advanced Placement syllabus. Nor would it focus on equations used by scholars when they write for one another. Instead, it would familiarize students with the kinds of numbers that describe and delineate our personal and public lives.
It could, for example, teach students how the Consumer Price Index is computed, what is included and how each item in the index is weighted — and include discussion about which items should be included and what weights they should be given.
This need not involve dumbing down. Researching the reliability of numbers can be as demanding as geometry. More and more colleges are requiring courses in “quantitative reasoning.” In fact, we should be starting that in kindergarten.
I hope that mathematics departments can also create courses in the history and philosophy of their discipline, as well as its applications in early cultures. Why not mathematics in art and music — even poetry — along with its role in assorted sciences? The aim would be to treat mathematics as a liberal art, making it as accessible and welcoming as sculpture or ballet. If we rethink how the discipline is conceived, word will get around and math enrollments are bound to rise. It can only help. Of the 1.7 million bachelor’s degrees awarded in 2010, only 15,396 — less than 1 percent — were in mathematics.
I’ve observed a host of high school and college classes, from Michigan to Mississippi, and have been impressed by conscientious teaching and dutiful students. I’ll grant that with an outpouring of resources, we could reclaim many dropouts and help them get through quadratic equations. But that would misuse teaching talent and student effort. It would be far better to reduce, not expand, the mathematics we ask young people to imbibe. (That said, I do not advocate vocational tracks for students considered, almost always unfairly, as less studious.)
Yes, young people should learn to read and write and do long division, whether they want to or not. But there is no reason to force them to grasp vectorial angles and discontinuous functions. Think of math as a huge boulder we make everyone pull, without assessing what all this pain achieves. So why require it, without alternatives or exceptions? Thus far I haven’t found a compelling answer.
Andrew Hacker is an emeritus professor of political science at Queens College, City University of New York, and a co-author of “Higher Education? How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids — and What We Can Do About It.”
The article asks whether or not teaching algebra is needed and whether its worthwhile given the high amounts of drop-outs associated to failing algebra.
As a mathematician, I find myself agreeing with a lot of the article, in that some people need to know algebra (I need to know algebra), but not everyone does. Not everyone will be a mathematician, statistician, engineer, scientist, economist, etc, and unless you're doing these types of jobs you don't need to know algebra. In fact, most of these professions require knowledge about computer coding more than algebra. These types of jobs also demand a good understanding of the subject matter and being proficient in algebra or calculus or math in general is essential to developing this knowledge
But obviously we cant stop teaching algebra given that it is essential that at least some people in society know algebra and math. One of the complaints in the article is that many universities use math results as an entrance criteria even for subjects that are not related to math. This obviously needs to change, but since it is necessary to teach math and algebra, and as long as most people find it hard (really, it's not hard in high school), I don't see the practice changing even though it should.
I don't think the article's example of teaching how the CPI works is a good one. Understanding the CPI requires algebra, and understanding how it changes when it's parts changes, also requires algebra. Nor do I think current math courses should be dumbed down to this level, particularly at the university level. University level math courses taught by the math faculty are for mathematicians. Math courses should be about math, i.e. algebra, analysis, geometry, etc. taught rigorously and mathematically. Instead, students should not be required to learn math if they don't want to.
So, for all those smart people, that aren't mathematically inclined, what should be taught instead? Recently, Tim Gowers (who is a Fields medalist), suggests we teach people to be mathematically literate. He gives his thoughts and some examples of Fermi problems (these are a favorite at job interviews at top firms) and questions related to games and strategies to encourage thinking like a mathematician. You can read his experience with teaching such a math class here. I agree with Gowers.
Not wanting to bash on a country, but questions like this can be asked only in one country in specific: the USA.
Mathematics is in the fundamentals of every other science, it helped us understand so much about a broad scope of subjects. And algebra is the easiest mathematical discipline. As a person who has a science degree in math, I really don't think math on a high level is for everybody, but, comeon, algebra is so easy that I refuse to believe there are any smart people, albeit not mathematically inclined, who can't deal with high school algebra. It simply defies the definition of 'smart'
Yes, in university, I got taught some real math and yes, about 75% of students dropped out, but it should be like this because I chose to pursue a degree in mathematics. For the other people who want to do artsy stuff or become wedding planners, sure there are ways to do that and they wouldn't follow a math course. Regardless, standard algebra should be taught everywhere in the developed world, especially in the United States, where math level is so low that they have questions on the SAT's (I and II) that I had on my 8-th grade exam. It is just ridiculous how low level of mathematics is in the United States and they want to lower even that? What about creating specialists in all areas connected to math: physics, programming, data analysis, engineering...etc etc?
I think it is something really really messed up that such suggestion is even considered and, honestly, it would be met with laughter anywhere else in the world. I myself barely hold my disgust and contempt at the fact that such thing is even proposed. It is a nation's duty to make its citizens more literate, more knowledgeable and more prosperous and not do exactly the opposite.
As has been said by countless people who have hit the nail on the head thus far: instead of copping out lets raise our education so that this arbitrary (but milestone-worthy) hurdle is met alongside all the other arbitrary (but which denote a good basic education) in the high school curriculum
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
That's funny because I've worked in software development and in scientific research.
Most of either require no mathematics whatsoever. Some work in scientific research or software development may require recognition of the results of mathematics. Please go back to my post and read my brief and crude introduction of what a mathematician is.
You could make the same argument for any research field though. I mean if researchers all went away, society would perfectly well continue to function.
Typically mathematical models are discovered way way way before they are actually used for anything. Number Theory used to be considered the most useless field of all of mathematics. Who cares about primes? Of course, then we developed modern cryptography where primes and their properties become extraordinarily useful. If we had not developed all the weird work we did on Elliptic Curves (which was thought pointless at the time), we would not have developed Elliptic Curve Cryptography, which is used in Blu-Rays and Cell Phones and pretty much any modern computers nowadays.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
Has anyone mentioned that the U.S. does not use the metric system and must spend an extra year teaching fractions instead of algebra during middle school because of it? This is also in junior high when math achievment begins to plummet.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
wait.. what the hell, even this one is an engineer
Uh... they were both. It's not like Cauchy had to prove theorems in analysis to build shit. He's far more well known for his mathematics than he is known for his engineering.
First post :D (never thaught it would be on a math subject but anyway).
The reason we should keep the current level of math (and in my opinion higher that leven by expanding the subject) is because it is one of those few subjects where you can really objectivily test someone's intelligence. For example subject's like history or art don't really judge your intelligence level. So with math higher education has a sort of benchmark of how intelligent you are. The reason math is more about intelligence than for instance history is because it requires some sort of thinking as history does not, you can basicly pass history just learing facts while maths requires you to think about something and there for is an idication of your level of intelligence. So even if you neverplan on doing something with math it is an benchmark, and therefor the level of math should not the decrease just to prevent drop-outs or dismotivation. Because how else is a student going to prove his intelligence?
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
wait.. what the hell, even this one is an engineer
Uh... they were both. It's not like Cauchy had to prove theorems in analysis to build shit. He's far more well known for his mathematics than he is known for his engineering.
Actually to build up his "continuum mechanics" he needed those instruments
And the formulas he provided are the base to stress analysis, wich is essential for engineering
I think he's to be considered an engineer, than a mathematician.
Is anyone else wondering how so many people are failing algebra? I thought my algebra in high school was easy. Maybe the article is talking about some other type of algebra that I haven't learned yet and is ten times harder?
Everyone should learn at least basic algebra. Unless I'm thinking of something else, the importance of being able to form and understand equations is significant. The one thing I would say is that (to me at least) there are a lot of subjects in math that are completely useless to ~90% of students. I remember a few years ago in a math class, we were learning something which would probably never pertain to our lives in the future. This one kid raised his hand and said, "What are we ever going to need to know this for?". The teacher got mad and ignored him lol. But I feel like this is a fairly common occurrence and thought for students. And I definitely don't blame them for asking/thinking it.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
wait.. what the hell, even this one is an engineer
Uh... they were both. It's not like Cauchy had to prove theorems in analysis to build shit. He's far more well known for his mathematics than he is known for his engineering.
Actually to build up his "continuum mechanics" he needed those instruments
Nonetheless, it was much easier back then to be proficient in many different fields and be at the forefront of all of them. Now all of our fields have way more depth, so omnidisciplinary scientists are basically considered to be practically impossible nowadays.
To say that Cauchy was an engineer and not a mathematician is stupid. He was both.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
. . . I could point to a time period when all those who can write are clergymen, but that does not mean being a priest is necessary for the acquisition of literacy in the modern world.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
That's funny because I've worked in software development and in scientific research.
Most of either require no mathematics whatsoever. Some work in scientific research or software development may require recognition of the results of mathematics. Please go back to my post and read my brief and crude introduction of what a mathematician is.
Well obviously you don't seeing as all software development is done with algebra, and how are you supposed to do scientific research without stochastic processes, which is based on random variables, which is algebra. Even if you ignore the obvious of statistics requiring algebra, what about the subject your studying? ecology? well that needs differential equations to model and understand. Engineering, don't even go there. Any astrophysics and physics in general are just math. Most social scientists require mathematical models and equations for populations. And im sorry but what is software development without any variables, because that's algebra.
As for the criticism of pure mathematics or high level not being applicable, while somewhat true, high level mathematics allows us to understand mathematics as a whole, which in turn effects applied mathematics. For example an engineer might look at the field of logic and proofs in mathematics and scoff as it's lack of application , but it's implications in his field just from say, the abel ruffini theorem are very important, and is why we need computers, and even higher level of mathematics to solve quintic and equations of higher orders.
On July 30 2012 07:18 Epishade wrote: Is anyone else wondering how so many people are failing algebra? I thought my algebra in high school was easy. Maybe the article is talking about some other type of algebra that I haven't learned yet and is ten times harder?
Everyone should learn at least basic algebra. Unless I'm thinking of something else, the importance of being able to form and understand equations is significant. The one thing I would say is that (to me at least) there are a lot of subjects in math that are completely useless to ~90% of students. I remember a few years ago in a math class, we were learning something which would probably never pertain to our lives in the future. This one kid raised his hand and said, "What are we ever going to need to know this for?". The teacher got mad and ignored him lol. But I feel like this is a fairly common occurrence and thought for students. And I definitely don't blame them for asking/thinking it.
No you are not wrong. It is easy, and it should be taught to high school students. I learned basic algebra in elementary school, in word problems and such. I am glad to hear about that algebra requirement for California universities. It should be like that in every state. A basic scientific competency is essential for an educated populace.
"one of those few subjects where you can really objectivily test someone's intelligence."
Its impossible to objectively measure intelligence and even if you could a math test only objectively measures your ability to do math. The problem with measuring intelligence is how many environmental factors change. You have huge differences in intelligence based on diet, oxygen density at the elevation they live, the amount of sunlight during the day. Your intelligence level is not completely set at birth, perhaps your potential is but the rest breaks down in the variables of living. Even IQ tests can only measure how well you do on an IQ test.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
. . . I could point to a time period when all those who can write are clergymen, but that does not mean being a priest is necessary for the acquisition of literacy in the modern world.
...what?
It's not like we're "done" with mathematics. Hell, mathematical biology looks like it will become an incredibly important discipline in developing biotechnology. We still have a long way to go.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
. . . I could point to a time period when all those who can write are clergymen, but that does not mean being a priest is necessary for the acquisition of literacy in the modern world.
...what?
It's not like we're "done" with mathematics. Hell, mathematical biology looks like it will become an incredibly important discipline in developing biotechnology. We still have a long way to go.
When did I ever allude to anyone being "done" with mathematics? All I was trying to say is that being a mathematician is absolutely unrelated to being an engineer and just because engineers tended to pursue mathematics in a certain time period does not mean engineering is at all relevant to modern mathematics. Thus, his example of Cauchy being an engineer makes no sense.
Just as only clergy pursued writing thousands of years ago in river valley civilizations does not mean that today, writing is limited to the clergy.
On July 30 2012 06:30 chenchen wrote: If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
Obviously, you have never worked for a software company or in scientific research. Good mathematicians are a requisite for anything high-tech nowadays.
That's funny because I've worked in software development and in scientific research.
Most of either require no mathematics whatsoever. Some work in scientific research or software development may require recognition of the results of mathematics. Please go back to my post and read my brief and crude introduction of what a mathematician is.
Well obviously you don't seeing as all software development is done with algebra, and how are you supposed to do scientific research without stochastic processes, which is based on random variables, which is algebra. Even if you ignore the obvious of statistics requiring algebra, what about the subject your studying? ecology? well that needs differential equations to model and understand. Engineering, don't even go there. Any astrophysics and physics in general are just math. Most social scientists require mathematical models and equations for populations. And im sorry but what is software development without any variables, because that's algebra.
As for the criticism of pure mathematics or high level not being applicable, while somewhat true, high level mathematics allows us to understand mathematics as a whole, which in turn effects applied mathematics. For example an engineer might look at the field of logic and proofs in mathematics and scoff as it's lack of application , but it's implications in his field just from say, the abel ruffini theorem are very important, and is why we need computers, and even higher level of mathematics to solve quintic and equations of higher orders.
As I've stated before, scientific research and software development use the results of mathematics, but few that work in those fields actually produce any mathematical results.
Thus the statement to which I was originally replying is false. Since when do we need to become mathematicians to enter "most high-tech fields"? We only need to become mathematicians to enter the field of mathematics.
Quoted from Georgetown Report: "Scientific, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics, and Social Sciences (STEM) Occupations....While these occupations are not large in number, they generate the technological changes that shape all other occupations. In 2008, STEM Occupations accounted for about 7.3 million jobs, or about 5 percent of the 147 million in the U.S. economy. By 2018, they are projected to increase to 8.6 million jobs, or 5.3 percent of the nation’s 162 million total positions"
The reason I ask the question is because this is the information the author has asserted into saying that only these positions use algebra. The actual report does NOT mention algebra, even once, and it does not assert that these are the only occupations to use algebra. It is the author's opinion.
Personally, I do not agree with the author that "a mere 5 percent of entry-level workers will need to be proficient in algebra or above" because that is false and grossly asserts that only STEM occupations (as defined above) use algebra.
EDIT: Ps. Business occupations (including accounting, finance, etc) are not STEM occupations. Just to give an example of the other occupations which use algebra daily.
What i don't understand is why would someone pinpoint algebra as something to get rid off? What about that bullshit that we learn in school such as the meaning and motifs behind John Steinbecks "Of Mice and Men"? Not that i don't appreciate literature, but why is it considered even close to on par as advancing mathematical understand. Also with modern obesity in the 1st world being a huge problem, why do schools still not teach basic cooking skills and which foods are good for you, and what exactly a nutritious diet week in, week out is.
On July 30 2012 07:34 UdderChaos wrote: What i don't understand is why would someone pinpoint algebra as something to get rid off? What about that bullshit that we learn in school such as the meaning and motifs behind John Steinbecks "Of Mice and Men"? Not that i don't appreciate literature, but why is it considered even close to on par as advancing mathematical understand. Also with modern obesity in the 1st world being a huge problem, why do schools still not teach basic cooking skills and which foods are good for you, and what exactly a nutritious diet week in, week out is.
I was taught nutrition by an obese smoker. Good times.
Honestly as an HS student I think it's not "failing algebra", it's "not caring about algebra" that's the problem. I think the most basic level in my school is still an algebra course, and if teachers explained how it applies to real life and real jobs, not just engineering or science but run-of-the-mill jobs, students would start doing better in it.
But cutting it out of school is fucking ridiculous.
I don't need algebra. I'm going to believe in myself, trust my heart, follow my dreams and win the X-factor, which has no math entrance bar - ironic for a show which employs a letter of the alphabet to represent an unknown quantity.
On July 30 2012 07:34 UdderChaos wrote: What i don't understand is why would someone pinpoint algebra as something to get rid off? What about that bullshit that we learn in school such as the meaning and motifs behind John Steinbecks "Of Mice and Men"? Not that i don't appreciate literature, but why is it considered even close to on par as advancing mathematical understand. Also with modern obesity in the 1st world being a huge problem, why do schools still not teach basic cooking skills and which foods are good for you, and what exactly a nutritious diet week in, week out is.
I was taught nutrition by an obese smoker. Good times.
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
In case you haven't realized actuaries and quants use some of the most advanced forms of applied mathematics that there is. In fact, most of the mathematics around pricing of options and financial derivatives is so complicated no one knows how it works a little beyond the clearly wrong Black-Scholes framework. And this remains a very active area of mathematical research.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, society would collapse. Who would be there to continue scientific progress, make informed policy recommendation, model how the world works, etc?
On July 30 2012 05:48 UrsusRex wrote: "History, literature, geography is all nice but it doesnt develop intelligence in that respect."
People who say stuff like this should be ignored. People who understand history and literature and geography which is my major do in fact learn skills and solve problems and increase their thinking. I've mapped out entire rivers and done risk assesments with my geography skills. I wrote persuasive papers and passed college because of the time I took to learn literature and history is a constant in our lives. Without history math has no relevance and as history has shown us the human race does not need any particular subject to be taught for humans to become educated and highly intelligent.
That's my conclusion, people who think math must be taught or people wont be as smart are just terrible history students.
This confuses me? If all the historians disappeared, it mat be annoying but no real disaster (if im wrong please tell me ). If all the mathematicians leave, were screwed.
When it comes down to it, sciences are 100% necessary, many arts (not all) are really nice (not sarcastically) but not crucial.
On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
Yea, cultural heritiage is the thing which while really cool and nice, isnt necessary. Most people managing money are mathematicians. If they all went there would be probably be chaos. And yea lol if we lost scientists or engineers thats kinda game over for the world.
Ah, I see we have a different definition of "mathematician," then.
On July 30 2012 05:57 corumjhaelen wrote:
On July 30 2012 05:54 ]343[ wrote: On the contrary, if all historians disappeared, we'd lose most of our (collective, global) cultural heritage, and if all mathematicians (not scientists or engineers) disappeared, we'd be relatively OK.
If we're talking about professionals, historian are not needed either to keep a cultural heritage. Anyway I like to think than maths and art have a lot in common =)
Hmm, maybe? Perhaps I'm confusing historians with curators of history museums :D
An actuary is a mathematician. An options broker is a mathematician. In my book at least, as they use complicated maths every day in their work.
Also, maths isnt that far from theoretical physics in some places, and physics is about as far form an art as its possible to be. So i dont really see maths being an arts subject. Unless your using the whole 'language of science' thing.
None of those professions are remotely close to that of the mathematician and require no mathematics whatsoever. What outcomes of the practice of mathematics actuaries and options brokers have been known for centuries. Actuaries and options brokers push numbers around in certain formulas and algorithms to determine the consequences of certain decisions. Mathematics is the study of patterns and structure. Mathematicians use the tools of mathematical reasoning to discover truths which hold in the context of certain established conventions.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, it would not hinder the functioning of society one bit.
In case you haven't realized actuaries and quants use some of the most advanced forms of applied mathematics that there is. In fact, most of the mathematics around pricing of options and financial derivatives is so complicated no one knows how it works a little beyond the clearly wrong Black-Scholes framework. And this remains a very active area of mathematical research.
If every mathematician in the world disappeared, society would collapse. Who would be there to continue scientific progress, make informed policy recommendation, model how the world works, etc?
I didn't have applied mathematics in mind when I was thinking of mathematics.
On July 29 2012 15:31 Spiffeh wrote: In defense of the strugglers, some people just can't do math. They are brilliant at other things, but numbers make their head spin.
I think math should be integral in any school curriculum, but we need to also recognize when we would be better off making the kids better at what they're already good at. If Johnny shows early adeptness and passion for the guitar, we should push him to dedicate his time to learning scales instead of some math he will learn to despise.
It's cases like these where kids get bored or frustrated and learn to hate the system.
How is algebra taught in the US? When I studied it, it was about abstract ideas, rational thinking, re-framing problems. Not so much about adding some large number to some other large number.
Are schools supposed to be fuckin preprofessional? Are ppl proud of not needing to use math? Is there no appreciation for the deep relationship between math and physics?
That people have so much trouble appreciating abstraction says a lot about Our problems in education.
Omg "x" is too fucking abstract let's forget math have more "philosophers!"
Fuck.
Edit: also despite majoring in math I love literature and enjoy history. Yet rarely would you have an English major who can appreciate math. I don't blame the kids. Too many bad teachers
The entire first half of this article is silly. If teaching algebra makes people drop out of school, then why do other countries (that also teach algebra and some of whom teach far more complex math) have lower numbers of dropouts? Come on. Seriously? There's far deeper problems with the United State's educational system that teaching kids how to solve algebraic equations.
i didnt like the article at all, just becouse the sistem is shitty doesnt mean you have to make school easier, fix the overall problems instead of just trying to fix student performance % , students drop just becouse algebra is hard, or becouse americans are lazier than other kids in other countries ??? why dont you start with lousy schools and teachers, poor neighbourhoods where graduating seems wothless etc..
and using that kids dont learn enough social science ( i study Sociology) as a pretext to cut algebra sounds really dumb.. just teach the kids better, in both subjects
maybe it isnt that usefull for most of the kids, but learning is not only about understanding things that will be obviosly and inmediatly usefull.
lol algebra isn't even that hard... if it's not required then idk what math subjects schools are supposed to teach. The problem lies not with the subject but with either the students or the education system.
i can maybe see Calculus as not being useful to a lot of people but Algebra? Algebra is not rocket science, although its best to know if you are a rocket scientist.
I learn physics/chem/bio not because i am going to be a biochemical engineer and use all 3 but because its basic knowledge.
i mean it matters not one whit whether or not the sun revolves around the earth or vice versa but gee no one is criticizing 4th grade education. in terms of usefulness the heliocentric model serves far fewer purposes to laypeople than algebra.
I find it interesting that people bash on the student for not passing. I mean if the percentage of student failling are low it just means that those student are lazy asses, but if the percentage are as high as 30%+ I believe that there is a problem with the teaching system no the student. Just fyi I took calculus in high school and pass easily, but it is just I have a good understanding of math. Most of what the teacher are teaching are a bunch of bull crap that they just read off the book, which I found that is what they do in college also and it is next to useless to try to teach to the student who didn't understand it in the first place.
We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
US high school students already performed statistically significantly below OECD average at the latest PISA in the field of math. Way to fix that by teaching less math
You should be given a well rounded education through high school, and once in college, it should be a more focused towards your career path. Also, I don't think the math is the problem, it's the teachers.
The only math reform we need is putting Algebra I and II in back to back years. Half my class forgot Alg I by the time Alg II rolled around mostly cause they were retarded and partially cause they stuck Geometry in between the 2.
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote: We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I agree with both these points. There are even a lot of kids who don't learn anything from doing homework whatsoever, but it's still included because the education system doesn't know how to handle multiple learning styles.
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote: We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I agree with both these points. There are even a lot of kids who don't learn anything from doing homework whatsoever, but it's still included because the education system doesn't know how to handle multiple learning styles.
Er...
If you can't learn information from reading a book, and productively practice it by solving problem designed to help you practice it, that's a learning disability, not a learning style.
That's not true Severe. Some students do much better learning by listening or seeing graphics or demonstrations. Mathematics is not books mathematics is a process, and it can be taught many different ways. Saying everyone who doesnt learn by reading and doing homework has a disability is BS.
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote: We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I agree with both these points. There are even a lot of kids who don't learn anything from doing homework whatsoever, but it's still included because the education system doesn't know how to handle multiple learning styles.
Er...
If you can't learn information from reading a book, and productively practice it by solving problem designed to help you practice it, that's a learning disability, not a learning style.
Hell yeah man, who needs teacher if you can read a book and works out problems like a champ huh?
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote: We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I agree with both these points. There are even a lot of kids who don't learn anything from doing homework whatsoever, but it's still included because the education system doesn't know how to handle multiple learning styles.
Er...
If you can't learn information from reading a book, and productively practice it by solving problem designed to help you practice it, that's a learning disability, not a learning style.
Well, a lot of students do have learning disabilities (or, at the very least, some sort of cognitive dysfunction that's close to a disability). Also, even those that don't sometimes learn better in different ways. Some students learn best by reading, some learn best by listening to a lecture, some learn best working in groups, some learn by practicing... that's why most good schools try to offer a blend of different teaching strategies.
I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time.
On July 30 2012 09:44 Zahir wrote: I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time.
When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering.
In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
On July 30 2012 08:54 Coolzx wrote: I find it interesting that people bash on the student for not passing. I mean if the percentage of student failling are low it just means that those student are lazy asses, but if the percentage are as high as 30%+ I believe that there is a problem with the teaching system no the student. Just fyi I took calculus in high school and pass easily, but it is just I have a good understanding of math. Most of what the teacher are teaching are a bunch of bull crap that they just read off the book, which I found that is what they do in college also and it is next to useless to try to teach to the student who didn't understand it in the first place.
In my high school there's a ton of people who couldn't give half a shit about actually trying to succeed in math class.
A majority of the people who fail (at least in my experience) do so not because of the teachers but because of themselves. Of course that's definitely not the case for every school but it's just what I've witnessed.
And reading off the book should be enough to learn something.. + practice problems.
On July 30 2012 08:54 Coolzx wrote: I find it interesting that people bash on the student for not passing. I mean if the percentage of student failling are low it just means that those student are lazy asses, but if the percentage are as high as 30%+ I believe that there is a problem with the teaching system no the student. Just fyi I took calculus in high school and pass easily, but it is just I have a good understanding of math. Most of what the teacher are teaching are a bunch of bull crap that they just read off the book, which I found that is what they do in college also and it is next to useless to try to teach to the student who didn't understand it in the first place.
In my high school there's a ton of people who couldn't give half a shit about actually trying to succeed in math class.
A majority of the people who fail (at least in my experience) do so not because of the teachers but because of themselves. Of course that's definitely not the case for every school but it's just what I've witnessed.
And reading off the book should be enough to learn something.. + practice problems.
There's also a pervasive mentality that some people are mentally equipped to do math and some aren't, so a lot of students just assume that they're utterly incapable of understanding it no matter how hard they try.
There are, of course, some people who couldn't pass high school algebra no matter how much effort they put in, but those people either have a serious learning disability or are too stupid to pass anything, not just math.
"When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering."
When I was 9 I wanted to be a teacher. Next year I will be in the teaching credential program at my university. Just because you were undecided does not mean every child is and even if they are they should be able to choose what interests to study. Your comment does not justify teaching everyone a subject of very limited applications.
"In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
You understand forcing students in to algebra that do not want to learn it is not preparing them for anything right?
On July 30 2012 10:02 UrsusRex wrote: "When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering."
When I was 9 I wanted to be a teacher. Next year I will be in the teaching credential program at my university. Just because you were undecided does not mean every child is and even if they are they should be able to choose what interests to study. Your comment does not justify teaching everyone a subject of very limited applications.
Most people don't know what they want to do when they grow up. That's just a fact. Some do, yes, but most don't. Forcing kids to decide early on is gonna leave you with a lot of people doing a job they thought they wanted when they were 15 and hating every second of it.
"In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
You understand forcing students in to algebra that do not want to learn it is not preparing them for anything right?
A friend I'm talking to about this very subject stopped taking math in high school because it bored her (though she was good at it), and is now considering going into math in college, but she has to take a community college math course to get back up to speed, so she might not do it.
If you ask kids whether they want to take a class or not, a lot of them won't because guess what, most people (even the ones who are good at it) don't like taking classes. If I had the choice to drop math and take some fluffy art class for an easy credit, I would've been all over that. My parents made me stay in up to calculus, and I can't thank them enough for it because I would've been way behind in college otherwise.
edit: Also can you use quote tags? It makes it easier to figure out which parts are you and which aren't. If you don't know how, just highlight what you want to quote and click the little speech bubble up top with "..." inside.
I hope this wasn't too serious. As well as helping generally in life, math teaches logical thinking and problem solving. The idea that "these problems are hard, so instead of teaching our kids how to solve them let's just get rid of them!" is frankly ridiculous. The way that American kids are treated so special when in reality half of them will end up flipping burgers at McDonald's really ticks me off.
Is Algebra just the basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents, logarithmic, trig, PEMDAS, the employment of variables X, Y, and Z?
On July 30 2012 10:02 UrsusRex wrote: "When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering."
When I was 9 I wanted to be a teacher. Next year I will be in the teaching credential program at my university. Just because you were undecided does not mean every child is and even if they are they should be able to choose what interests to study. Your comment does not justify teaching everyone a subject of very limited applications.
"In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
You understand forcing students in to algebra that do not want to learn it is not preparing them for anything right?
I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do.
In either case, I think the most important about learning algebra is the critical thinking. Sure, they are taught how to solve for certain variables, but the important thing they learn is how to think about problems. I would say that almost every subject in high school will not be relevant to real life, and even most of the time classes taken in college are not relevant to your life (or job). But people who have gone through higher education come accross as more intelligent. Not because they can tell me about organic chemistry or statistical mechanics, but because the way they think through problems and the way they aproach a question is much more thorough.
"Forcing kids to decide early on is gonna leave you with a lot of people doing a job they thought they wanted when they were 15 and hating every second of it."
That's not what I advocate and forcing children to learn algebra is just as ineffective. Students should be able to take an elective instead of algebra I don't advocate releasing them from studying, even studying math. I was able to pass college math because I took a statistics elective at my community college. I think students should have similar choices in math in junior high and high school. They should be able to choose between the many things math can teach us and I agree with the author that a focus on applied mathematics is ideal for many students, like me.
"My parents made me stay in up to calculus, and I can't thank them enough for it because I would've been way behind in college otherwise."
When I was in high school I had untreated bipolar disorder, my mom was dead, and I lived with my step dad. There was no way I could learn advanced math. I tried studying for hours and it never helped I failed algebra so many times. Contrary to what people say that does not make me dumb, lazy, defiant, or a person with bad cultural values. I just could not understand it, I still can't. I have no explanation I tried so many times but I never grasped math. I'm not proud of that but I am not ashamed either. I still managed to graduate with honors english and history and taking ap classes where i passed for both, It was easy for me because I choose to go in to those classes and wanted to learn. Not everyone will do good in math or get the benefits you did, in fact most will not. It was not until I had choices as an adult that I was able to pass math classes.
On July 30 2012 10:17 Xiphos wrote: Is Algebra just the basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents, logarithmic, trig, PEMDAS, the employment of variables X, Y, and Z?
Someone type up what am I missing here.
They also usually teach some solving systems of equations, polynomials, factoring, stuff like that.
It's basically all the stuff leading up to calculus that isn't trig.
That's not what I advocate and forcing children to learn algebra is just as ineffective. Students should be able to take an elective instead of algebra I don't advocate releasing them from studying, even studying math. I was able to pass college math because I took a statistics elective at my community college. I think students should have similar choices in math in junior high and high school. They should be able to choose between the many things math can teach us and I agree with the author that a focus on applied mathematics is ideal for many students, like me.
I'm of the opinion that anyone with a high school degree should be able to take any 100-level introductory college course they want. If you don't know algebra, you can't take calc (or even precalc). I guess we just differ on how comprehensive a high school education should be... I, for example, have made zero use of the four years of history I took and probably never will, but if I don't think I shouldn't have had to take it.
When I was in high school I had untreated bipolar disorder, my mom was dead, and I lived with my step dad. There was no I could learn advanced math. I tried studying for hours and it never helped I failed algebra so many times. Contrary to what people say that does not make me dumb, lazy, defiant, or a person with bad cultural values. I just could not understand it. I still managed to graduate with honors english and history and taking ap classes where i passed for both, It was easy for me because I choose to go in to those classes and wanted to learn. Not everyone will do good in math or get the benefits you did, in fact most will not.
I think the reason a lot of people are failing math is that the system's really shitty. If schools were run the way I wish they were, you would've had much more academic (and probably neuropsychological) support. I think the answer to the problem the author talks about is by helping the people who are genuinely struggling with algebra in a more intensive and more effective way, not letting them off the hook. That's all.
Also, I never said people who are bad at math are "dumb, lazy, defiant, or a person with bad cultural values." I voluntarily spend eight hours a week dealing exclusively with kids who are "bad at math" because I think that they can do it with more support.
On July 30 2012 09:44 Zahir wrote: I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time.
Algebra is basic math, honestly. You need it to even take physics or chemistry. If kids are not even introduced to these subjects then how could they possibly know if they want to take them.
No, education is not about "preparing you for life" actually. History and Literature do not prepare you for life. I'm not exactly sure where people are getting this idea from. Education is all about standards. There's nothing "meaningless blanket standards" about having a high school diploma imply that you have basic math skills.
This, again, would also force colleges to waste more of their time educating kids in algebra rather than their actual majors when they should have just learned it in high school. I believe it's also way easier to learn algebra as a kid, but I don't have evidence to back that up. It's important to your development.
"I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
edit: also how is a child capable of deciding for him/herself that algebra is not necessary at the age of 13 or whenever?
School is supposed to be preparatory for any sort of future career or academic path. It's not like reading Shakespeare becomes optional in English class or that knowing where Mongolia is becomes optional in geography "because you'll never use that information." Why is there an exception for algebra, or calculus even?
These subjects are standard high school fare for developed countries around the globe (and even many developing ones). The United States is by and large the only exception to this case, where there are few clear federal standards for education and things like calculus are not universally taught in high school.
There are an incredible amount of careers that require much harder math than algebra, and you can't even begin to learn it without algebra. Is it fair to the students that they would have to make their career decision in middle school in order to even understand the foundations to learn the more advanced math in time to graduate college? Good luck being an architect without geometry, and you need 2 years of algebra to really learn geometry.
Students need to learn the basics to learn more advanced subjects, and they need to have the basics down pat in advance of when they need to learn the more advanced topics. You can't learn differential equations without calculus, and you can't learn calculus without algebra. If you're an engineer in college, you don't have the time to learn basic algebra from scratch before moving on to the other subjects, and it's not at all smart to force students to make career decisions in middle school or early high school.
It's not difficult, and just like many other things, it's one of those things that is worth learning, even if it's never really applicable to decision making for your every day life, much like learning history.
Futhermore, basic algebra is very similar to basic logic, and the skills do indeed translate. Logic is pretty damn important, something way more people should learn. It's exceedingly simple and quite easy, it's not as if they are requiring calculus of all students (and calculus is also essential for a lot of professions).
For the record, Algebra is the branch of mathematics that deals with the relationships between numbers.
On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote: "I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it? You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is. You do not need a high school diploma to be a contributing member of society. While we should certainly encourage people getting diplomas, the goal of education is to educate people, not to give out diplomas.
Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong.
If your foundation on mathematics is poor all of the above subject like algebra will also a failure.and I want to decline all statement above that negates the value of algebra.I like to define you what is algebra without too much vocabulary:algebra is a product of coefficient.Coefficients are define in two terms:It is numerical and literal coefficient:
ex 2Y=2 multiplied by Y wherein: 2=numerical coefficient Y=literal coefficient
"Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it?"
Again? I think this is the first time you have adressed me and I don't understand your question. I have not advocated or implied students should be passed who fail.
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
"Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong."
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote: "Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it?"
Again? I think this is the first time you have adressed me and I don't understand your question. I have not advocated or implied students should be passed who fail.
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
"Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong."
Go troll somewhere else.
Saying that high school algebra isn't advanced mathematics is nowhere near a troll.
Laughing at people, saying they don't deserve what they achieved, and harping on minor misstatements to humiliate them is trolling. I was not commenting on the accuracy of his statement, its not important anyways.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote: "Again, explain to me why someone should get a high school diploma if they haven't earned it?"
Again? I think this is the first time you have adressed me and I don't understand your question. I have not advocated or implied students should be passed who fail.
"You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
"Algebra is not advanced mathematics. lol not even close. There's nothing advanced about it at all. I'm not saying it's easy, but called it advanced mathematics is just wrong."
Go troll somewhere else.
Saying that high school algebra isn't advanced mathematics is nowhere near a troll.
Yeah high school algebra is definitely not advanced mathematics.. lol. In addition to college mathematics there's also competition math which isn't covered in most high schools.
On July 30 2012 10:35 UrsusRex wrote: Laughing at people, saying they don't deserve what they achieved, and harping on minor misstatements to humiliate them is trolling. I was not commenting on the accuracy of his statement, its not important anyways.
Well I was laughing at you calling algebra advanced mathematics. That's not really trolling. I'm not trolling you or anything. Relax.
And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma...
You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
lol. Somebody doesn't know how integral mathematics is to almost every industry in America.
On July 30 2012 10:44 SnipedSoul wrote: Why make kids go to school at all? School should be 100% optional, imo. We didn't have schools for thousands of years and everything was okay!
I'm hoping this is sarcastic but I'll bite.
We also didn't have plumbing, telecommunications, internet, locomotion, flight, electricity, etc... for thousands of years anyways.
"And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me.
I say just make school optional after 9th grade. Lowering the educational standard to get people to pass is just as bad as lowering the IQ value standard to make people feels better about themselves. If school were optional then the pass rate would be a lot higher because only those who want to go to school, go to school. Most violent students in school are those who had no interest in school in the first place, so it would even make school environment a lot safer too. So why force? Public school should just be free and optional.
The point of the article that was written is that algebra should be taught more as an "art", or at the very least we should rethink how we teach algebra all together. I agree with the author's sentiment. Mathematics is obviously useful in any technical field out there, furthermore, because of the rigorous and analytic nature of more "advanced" math (i.e. abstract algebra, complex analysis) students can hone in problem solving and critical thinking skills that transfer to other fields. For example, math majors score the highest on LSATs followed by philosophy majors (They would probably score the highest if they weren't clumped in with theology majors), english majors rank something like 12th. Of course it can be argued that smarter students are drawn towards math in the first place, that math doesn't make you any smarter. But when you actually start doing real math, when you are trying to prove a lemma by transposition, you are using logical concepts that can be applied to construct valid or sound arguments outside of math.
The problem is the way they currently teach math is arcane and boring. How can you pique a student's interest in higher mathematics if you scar him for life with basic algebra? It takes a gifted teacher to teach mathematical thinking versus symbolic manipulation which is a sad thing.
On July 30 2012 09:44 Zahir wrote: I do not like this dogmatic argument of "if they're failing let's just teach it to them harder! That's what the rest of the world does!"
Education should prepare you for life and produce brilliant individuals to help your country kick ass. Not cram algebra into the minds of every single person including the great majority who will never use it.
What schools should do, is teach a wide array of subjects at first and then gradually allow students to pick more and more of their own curriculum, in preparation for a career. Different schools could have different focuses, so math/science kids could go to one, arts/writing to another and so forth.
Making your entire populace slightly less crappy at a subject they will rarely use is a waste of human potential. We should focus on making everyone better at what they're actually going to do. Not hold to meaningless blanket standards which ultimately make us less efficient/competitive by wasting everyone's time.
When I was 12, I wanted to be a marine biologist. When I was 14, I wanted to be an artist. When I was 15, I wanted to be a philosopher. When I was 16, I wanted to be a guitarist. When I started college, I wanted to be a physicist. Now I'm 22 and studying engineering.
In other words, that is a terrible fucking idea. Beyond terrible. Most people don't even know what they want to do until they're halfway through college, and some don't even decide until they're well into adulthood. High school is meant to prepare you so that you can do anything you want in college... that's why fancy private schools are called "preparatory schools."
If this is true, you would have had a well rounded education including algebra anyway. Because as soon as you focused on a career requiring algebra (marine bio, engineering) you could have taken it. Algebra can be learned at about any point after arithmetic.
I don't deny that there should be some requisites, English especially. Arithmetic for sure. History, I think not. All the people trying to defend history have terrible, gut feelings-based sentimentality arguments.
But neither should anyone else deny that at some point, specialization and control over ones own education must and should occur, whether the student is ready or not. Right now our society has decided that that line should be drawn at college, but I see no reason why an 18 year old is somehow vastly different than a 17 year old.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
So begins the decay of civilization and the start of the next dark age.
On July 30 2012 10:50 UrsusRex wrote: "And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me.
Sigh, are you kidding? You're really going to play this game? Bolded the parts I'm talking about:
On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote: "I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote: "You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
Seriously, and you're trying to claim that I'm trolling? For real?
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
Its always surprising when you read stuff like this. Makes you kinda sad at how ignorant people are. And Americans wonder why they aren't seen in the best light by the rest of the world....
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote: We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I was always under the impression that American students had considerably less homework than students in other developed countries?
On July 30 2012 10:50 UrsusRex wrote: "And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me.
Sigh, are you kidding? You're really going to play this game? Bolded the parts I'm talking about:
On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote: "I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote: "You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
To argue a bit here, I agree with his bolded point. I don't think that algebra should be taught to children who don't wish to teach it, under the caveat that they're also informed that it's unlikely they'll get a secure, well-paying job after high school. For those who are lucky and become good carpenters/plumbers/etc., good on them. They should just know that the proportion of burger flippers who don't know algebra is way higher than the proportion of white collar workers. If they're willing to take their chances, then I don't see why we should be protecting them from their mistakes.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
On July 30 2012 10:44 SnipedSoul wrote: Why make kids go to school at all? School should be 100% optional, imo. We didn't have schools for thousands of years and everything was okay!
I'm hoping this is sarcastic but I'll bite.
We also didn't have plumbing, telecommunications, internet, locomotion, flight, electricity, etc... for thousands of years anyways.
Your country tag is wrong. It should be "Romania" but you put "United States" instead. No need to thank me, I'm here to help.
On July 30 2012 10:36 xrapture wrote: Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
That's funny. Your view of what makes America powerful is often what makes other countries mock the USA. Being able to "buy shit" because you have a Mastercard or a Visa doesn't equate to America being all powerful. By the looks of it the "being able to buy shit cause I can" is what is going to screw you guys over both at the personal household level and at the national level.
Getting on-topic - I can't comment on the American education system since I did my schooling in England but as someone who didn't get algebra it was a pain in the ass. I had to bust a gut to get a C, where as all over courses were A's / B's. Have I used it since? Not really. Do I even remember what I learned? Nope. I think it should still be on the curriculum though, but would say that most of the people I know who went through high school math in the UK felt that it was heavily slanted towards math that most would never use again, and skimped out on a lot of common math that people use in their daily lives. I felt at the time that those who dropped out didn't drop out because it was too hard but because they felt it was too irrelevant to them - why struggle with something you know you most likely will never do again?
I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote: Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote: I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace. Hence all the history and science and literature and such.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
I don't usually say things like this outright, but you're an idiot. Holy fuck, I have not read something this stupid in I don't know how long.
"Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma."
What I advocate is allowing students to choose what math they take, a person would have to demonstrate competency but in which class they choose. If they failed the class they would still have to retake it or take another one. I didn't bring up graduation requirements or grades before this. Now you'll have to excuse me from responding any more since I am going to bed.
Isn't algebra at highschool level just line equations, like y=mx+b stuff? That stuff is relatively easy to grasp, and comprehending two-dimensional planes, negative and positive slopes (and in turn, graph comprehension/etc) seems pretty important under a general knowledge sort of deal. I'd say keep it, since High School is really supposed to be a general knowledge degree.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
You do realize that America as a power is slowly but steadily getting dethroned by countries who actually put effort into their education and economy? As it stands America is now asking the EU, China or even Russia if THEY are allowed to participate in their space projects. 30 years ago it would have been the other way around.
Let me tell you what makes "so many people capable of buying shit": Money. Do you want to know where money comes from? From being able to offer something that others want a better price than the competition. From being more clever than the next person (or country) trying to sell their shit.
Education makes people more likely to achieve that goal. Whether it's Algebra, Languages, Physics or even History. By being able to build on the foundation that 2000 and more years of human culture built generation by generation. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is the foundation for success.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
The Roman Empire died from overreliance on finance as well.
On July 30 2012 11:21 UrsusRex wrote: "Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma."
What I advocate is allowing students to choose what math they take, a person would have to demonstrate competency but in which class they choose. If they failed the class they would still have to retake it or take another one. I didn't bring up graduation requirements or grades before this. Now you'll have to excuse me from responding since I am going to bed.
I'm gonna go the opposite direction on this: students should be required to take more difficult courses and have stricter standards for graduation, and be held back if they fail, no questions asked. People should be held to higher standards in order to improve the long run prospects of our nation's work force and economic survivability. Students who can't keep up shouldn't move on, they should be held back and asked to try again. Provide special help to students who need it, but make damn sure the parents know they have to actually give a shit.
Hell, I'd even add other courses to the required list if I had my way. Not using it as a part of your career is not a good reason not to learn something, you still vote and interact with other human beings. Maybe if people actually paid attention in history class we wouldn't be repeating the same mistakes over and over again (prohibition ring any bells with the drug war?) It's about damn time people started acting responsible and actually read a damn book.
It's definitely not necessary for everyday life--otherwise people would be dying left and right--but if they ever take away the requirement, I'm forcing my kid to learn it so he'll have that massive advantage over idiots who didn't or couldn't learn algebra.
On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote: Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote: I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
Could you go into more detail about what a well rounded education is, why things like history and algebra needs to requirement as part of it and not computer skills. Its a pretty vague term.
On July 30 2012 09:02 UrsusRex wrote: We also assign students too much homework. Studies have shown students actually learn less the more homework they are given and are less likely to continue learning later in life. Nothing kills a childs love of knowledge as fast as assigning tons of homework and making them learn what they can't relate to.
Also we don't use the metric system and that has a massive effect on understanding measurement and our math system.
I was always under the impression that American students had considerably less homework than students in other developed countries?
On July 30 2012 10:50 UrsusRex wrote: "And actually you are advocating that people should be passed who fail. You're saying that people who fail algebra should still be given a high school diploma..."
No I am not and I did not. I think you might have confused me for someone else you were talking with.
"You say that you passed with only the most superficial grasp. You're suggesting that we should lower it from "most superficial grasp" to "not at all."
I don't know what you're talking about anymore, but I know it doesn't anything to do with me.
Sigh, are you kidding? You're really going to play this game? Bolded the parts I'm talking about:
On July 30 2012 10:22 UrsusRex wrote: "I agree with the guy you quoted. If I was never exposed to math, I would never have known if I liked it or not. Just because some people have decided what they wanted to do at an early age, doesn't mean they shouldn't still be exposed to other stuff to find out if they were wrong in what they wanted to do."
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOT TEACHING MATHEMATICS I SUPPORT NOT TEACHING ALGEBRA TO STUDENTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO LEARN IT.
I apologize for typing in all caps, but my position has been misrepresented several times now and its something that irratates me.
On July 30 2012 10:31 UrsusRex wrote: "You say that you worked really hard and everything, but the fact is that you did not have the skills that a high school diploma implies. I don't see what the problem is."
I did have the skills. I did pass my classes and my exit exams. I still did not learn math though. I came out with only the most superficial grasp. I have the ability to pass any test given because I have good test taking skills.
To argue a bit here, I agree with his bolded point. I don't think that algebra should be taught to children who don't wish to teach it, under the caveat that they're also informed that it's unlikely they'll get a secure, well-paying job after high school. For those who are lucky and become good carpenters/plumbers/etc., good on them. They should just know that the proportion of burger flippers who don't know algebra is way higher than the proportion of white collar workers. If they're willing to take their chances, then I don't see why we should be protecting them from their mistakes.
American students barely have any homework -.- At the very least, I had shit for homework all through elementary and middle school. The vast majority of homework I got in high school was either minimal or purely for the IB program.
I understand the sentiment behind letting kids choose, but honestly, most high schoolers are very bad at making decisions. Not only that, but the choice of taking math is a false choice. How many of you, while you were in high school, can honestly say that you would opt to take a generally painful class if it's completely optional? Even if you tell high schoolers it's good for their future, most of them would just shrug it off. Like...seriously, how much did you listen to your parents/teachers in high school?
On July 30 2012 11:21 UrsusRex wrote: "Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma."
What I advocate is allowing students to choose what math they take, a person would have to demonstrate competency but in which class they choose. If they failed the class they would still have to retake it or take another one. I didn't bring up graduation requirements or grades before this. Now you'll have to excuse me from responding any more since I am going to bed.
Choose what math they take? All of mathematics past simple arithmetic is based off of, or has some form, of algebra.
In a sense, math is the programming language of our universe- a solid basic in mathematics and how it applies to the world may not be practical in everyday life, but if anything it is useful philosophically. As others have said, this is the same for topics such as history, literature analysis, and so on...
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
You do realize that America as a power is slowly but steadily getting dethroned by countries who actually put effort into their education and economy? As it stands America is now asking the EU, China or even Russia if THEY are allowed to participate in their space projects. 30 years ago it would have been the other way around.
Let me tell you what makes "so many people capable of buying shit": Money. Do you want to know where money comes from? From being able to offer something that others want a better price than the competition. From being more clever than the next person (or country) trying to sell their shit.
Education makes people more likely to achieve that goal. Whether it's Algebra, Languages, Physics or even History. By being able to build on the foundation that 2000 and more years of human culture built generation by generation. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is the foundation for success.
Ho yeah which country is dethroning america by putting effort into their education ? China ? "Education" is overrated in our society, the economy, and as a so called way for people to get "critical". Most of what you learn through school are sets of useless things that only exist in order to gives you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from others. Those tools or whatever will not makes your more "productiv" in the economical sense, period.
I'm not saying knowledge is useless, but education and knowledge are two completly different things.
On July 30 2012 10:17 Xiphos wrote: Is Algebra just the basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponents, logarithmic, trig, PEMDAS, the employment of variables X, Y, and Z?
Someone type up what am I missing here.
They also usually teach some solving systems of equations, polynomials, factoring, stuff like that.
It's basically all the stuff leading up to calculus that isn't trig.
Are you serious? That's it?
I thought I missed a huge portion of it.
The factoring part must be the most arduous constituent of the list. Grouping, completing the square, the quadratic equation and all that jazz.
But honestly Algebra is very imperative in the first step of learning fundamental polynomial/rational functions and to some extent the trig functions too (yes I do believe that there is a such entity known as trig factoring). Knowing functions itself is required in basic computer programming, to formulate graphs for the big science 3 (Phy, Bio, and Chem). There are so many application of these functions that I can't list them all on the top of my head. But I know one thing for sure is that all of them are based upon the knowledge settled by algebra.
So yes to the topic, not knowing algebra is detrimental to anyone interested in any form of science and yes even political science needs a fair amount of calculations.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
You do realize that America as a power is slowly but steadily getting dethroned by countries who actually put effort into their education and economy? As it stands America is now asking the EU, China or even Russia if THEY are allowed to participate in their space projects. 30 years ago it would have been the other way around.
Let me tell you what makes "so many people capable of buying shit": Money. Do you want to know where money comes from? From being able to offer something that others want a better price than the competition. From being more clever than the next person (or country) trying to sell their shit.
Education makes people more likely to achieve that goal. Whether it's Algebra, Languages, Physics or even History. By being able to build on the foundation that 2000 and more years of human culture built generation by generation. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is the foundation for success.
Ho yeah which country is dethroning america by putting effort into their education ? China ? "Education" is overrated in our society, the economy, and as a so called way for people to get "critical". Most of what you learn through school are sets of useless things that only exist in order to gives you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from others. Those tools or whatever will not makes your more "productiv" in the economical sense, period.
I'm not saying knowledge is useless, but education and knowledge are two completly different things.
How exactly is education overrated? Sure, some of what you learn is worthless, but are you honestly trying to tell me that what you learn in school is useless? While yes, nothing you learn in school will make you more "productive" in the economic sense that everyone can do manual labor. But if your country wants to innovate and improve you need education.
Knowledge and education are two different things, sure, but you can't get knowledge without education.
On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote: Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote: I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
Could you go into more detail about what a well rounded education is, why things like history and algebra needs to requirement as part of it and not computer skills. Its a pretty vague term.
I don't really understand the question. Education is a standard. High school is generally considered the time where you get a basic education in all fields and when/if you want to specialize you go into college. Everything in high school is completely basic. You don't really go into any depth into any field, even with AP/IB stuff (although those are much closer to college courses).
I'm not exactly what you mean by "computer skills." Computer programming is all algebra, although you'll need some more than just basic algebra as well.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
You do realize that America as a power is slowly but steadily getting dethroned by countries who actually put effort into their education and economy? As it stands America is now asking the EU, China or even Russia if THEY are allowed to participate in their space projects. 30 years ago it would have been the other way around.
Let me tell you what makes "so many people capable of buying shit": Money. Do you want to know where money comes from? From being able to offer something that others want a better price than the competition. From being more clever than the next person (or country) trying to sell their shit.
Education makes people more likely to achieve that goal. Whether it's Algebra, Languages, Physics or even History. By being able to build on the foundation that 2000 and more years of human culture built generation by generation. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is the foundation for success.
Ho yeah which country is dethroning america by putting effort into their education ? China ? "Education" is overrated in our society, the economy, and as a so called way for people to get "critical". Most of what you learn through school are sets of useless things that only exist in order to gives you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from others. Those tools or whatever will not makes your more "productiv" in the economical sense, period.
I'm not saying knowledge is useless, but education and knowledge are two completly different things.
If you believe tests like PISA or similar ones the average american student is on a similar level as one in the educational weaker countries in the EU, outperformed by Canada, Western/Northern Europe and Australia.
But welp, you just claimed that education doesn't make you more economically valuable. Go try and tell that to your future boss who's asking you what you can and can't do. =P
Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies...
I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it.
On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote: Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote: I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
Could you go into more detail about what a well rounded education is, why things like history and algebra needs to requirement as part of it and not computer skills. Its a pretty vague term.
I don't really understand the question. Education is a standard. High school is generally considered the time where you get a basic education in all fields and when/if you want to specialize you go into college. Everything in high school is completely basic. You don't really go into any depth into any field, even with AP/IB stuff (although those are much closer to college courses).
I'm not exactly what you mean by "computer skills." Computer programming is all algebra, although you'll need some more than just basic algebra as well.
Ehh...computer programming is more like manipulating language, syntax, and logic to arrive at what you want. Computer science is pretty much all math though.
On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote: Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote: I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
Could you go into more detail about what a well rounded education is, why things like history and algebra needs to requirement as part of it and not computer skills. Its a pretty vague term.
I don't really understand the question. Education is a standard. High school is generally considered the time where you get a basic education in all fields and when/if you want to specialize you go into college. Everything in high school is completely basic. You don't really go into any depth into any field, even with AP/IB stuff (although those are much closer to college courses).
I'm not exactly what you mean by "computer skills." Computer programming is all algebra, although you'll need some more than just basic algebra as well.
Ehh...computer programming is more like manipulating language, syntax, and logic to arrive at what you want. Computer science is pretty much all math though.
Well you have variables, expressions and algorithms based on increasing/decreasing functions. I don't know what you could achieve in computer programming while being bad in elementary algebra...
I do Computer Science and although I don't use algebra at a practical level much, I do find that what I learnt back at school through algebra helped me enter the dimension of logic rather than having a thought process that revolved around thinking the world worked through magic. Physics also helped me very much understand this.
It's not always about what you learn that you can use later in life... It's about giving you the mind set so that you can apply it other facets of life.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
You do realize that America as a power is slowly but steadily getting dethroned by countries who actually put effort into their education and economy? As it stands America is now asking the EU, China or even Russia if THEY are allowed to participate in their space projects. 30 years ago it would have been the other way around.
Let me tell you what makes "so many people capable of buying shit": Money. Do you want to know where money comes from? From being able to offer something that others want a better price than the competition. From being more clever than the next person (or country) trying to sell their shit.
Education makes people more likely to achieve that goal. Whether it's Algebra, Languages, Physics or even History. By being able to build on the foundation that 2000 and more years of human culture built generation by generation. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is the foundation for success.
Ho yeah which country is dethroning america by putting effort into their education ? China ? "Education" is overrated in our society, the economy, and as a so called way for people to get "critical". Most of what you learn through school are sets of useless things that only exist in order to gives you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from others. Those tools or whatever will not makes your more "productiv" in the economical sense, period.
I'm not saying knowledge is useless, but education and knowledge are two completly different things.
How exactly is education overrated? Sure, some of what you learn is worthless, but are you honestly trying to tell me that what you learn in school is useless? While yes, nothing you learn in school will make you more "productive" in the economic sense that everyone can do manual labor. But if your country wants to innovate and improve you need education.
Knowledge and education are two different things, sure, but you can't get knowledge without education.
R&D and education are two completly different things. R&D investment are usually made either by facilitating loan to industries who have project in R&D or giving tax cut for companies who do R&D. Yeah, there is R&D and China, but no not at the level of America or Europe. What's your point ? This has nothing to do with education, and the impact of R&D on economy is not as clear as endogene growth theory might make it seems.
It's overrated because of many reasons : giving opportunities to only people who have an education is not a good idea, most of the thing you learn are useless. What you learn in school is not entirely useless at all (I have two master degree in economy and sociology), but the idea that education is the everything of economical growth is just wrong. China is getting his money from producing cheap goods for a cheap price, not because they are well educated.
On July 30 2012 10:24 wherebugsgo wrote: American educational standards have been really low ever since the Soviet Union ceased to exist. They've just been getting worse and worse because the primary motivation factor for the math and science education surges of the mid 1900s was the space race.
It's pretty simple, really. The problem is three-fold:
One, the American education system is full of underqualified, underpaid, and underappreciated teachers.
Two, American culture doesn't value education or intelligence as a virtue as highly as other cultures, in particular when compared to countries in Europe and Asia.
Three, the standards for public education are abysmally low, and they get lower every year.
Higher education, such as university education, is on par or better than the rest of the world. However, public high school is a really bad preparation in the United States for college. That's the problem. It's not like American students are dumber than their foreign counterparts. It's just that the culture (their parents) and the system don't work in their favor, and that's why you have so many students failing math, for example. (it's not just math, either; most American students have almost no global awareness and even poor writing and reading skills. They can't pin even well-known countries on a map in many cases.)
Anecdotal evidence: the valedictorian of the class the year before my graduating year in high school thought that New Zealand was a neighbor of Canada.
Lol who gives a shit. Even though American education is "so bad", America is still by far the most influential country on the planet.
Most millionaires, most fortune 500 companies, a military that would literally bulldoze any country in the world, at any given moment the US President is the most powerful person on Earth, plus so much more.
Countries literally become "Americanized." America's culture itself is taking over the world.
So no, Algebra is utterly superfluous. Most people in the world don't even use it for the rest of their lives after high school. So yea, if some tech- savy- sucking- the system's- dick job is for you go for it, but don't make the rest of us learn that useless shit.
You know what makes America so powerful? It sure as fuck aint algebra-- it's so many people capable of buying shit. Iphones, cars, tv's, computers, clothes, food-- that's it. That's the formula.
You do realize that America as a power is slowly but steadily getting dethroned by countries who actually put effort into their education and economy? As it stands America is now asking the EU, China or even Russia if THEY are allowed to participate in their space projects. 30 years ago it would have been the other way around.
Let me tell you what makes "so many people capable of buying shit": Money. Do you want to know where money comes from? From being able to offer something that others want a better price than the competition. From being more clever than the next person (or country) trying to sell their shit.
Education makes people more likely to achieve that goal. Whether it's Algebra, Languages, Physics or even History. By being able to build on the foundation that 2000 and more years of human culture built generation by generation. Knowledge is power. Knowledge is the foundation for success.
Ho yeah which country is dethroning america by putting effort into their education ? China ? "Education" is overrated in our society, the economy, and as a so called way for people to get "critical". Most of what you learn through school are sets of useless things that only exist in order to gives you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from others. Those tools or whatever will not makes your more "productiv" in the economical sense, period.
I'm not saying knowledge is useless, but education and knowledge are two completly different things.
If you believe tests like PISA or similar ones the average american student is on a similar level as one in the educational weaker countries in the EU, outperformed by Canada, Western/Northern Europe and Australia.
But welp, you just claimed that education doesn't make you more economically valuable. Go try and tell that to your future boss who's asking you what you can and can't do. =P
We are in one of the least profitable time since a long time for european economies and still the "education" is the highest ever. So, yes education makes someone valuable, that's what I was saying : it is made in order to let you distinguish yourself from other. But it doesn't makes you more productive. Maybe if bosses gave more chances to young people with no experience, instead of always asking the same type of student, who all did the same courses, our economy would be brighter.
I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
On July 30 2012 11:07 UrsusRex wrote: Doublereed just because I think algebra should be optional doesn't mean I think students who fail it should be given a pass.
Explain further. I do not see how this is consistent. In order to earn a diploma, you need to pass algebra. You want to put in a standard where you can get a diploma without passing algebra. Hence, a person could fail algebra, and still receive a diploma.
On July 30 2012 11:12 Zahir wrote: I mean at some point you have to start respecting students decisions, and stop forcing them to take classes they will likely never use. A study quoted in the ops article suggests only 5% of the population will use algebra in their jobs. Not an impressive stat, compared with English, arithmetic, or even basic computer skills ( http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d04/tables/dt04_429.asp ) ... Which is somehow not a requisite while algebra and even history are.
Just because most people take a long time to decide what they want to do, does not mean we should force them to take classes that have decided they don't need, especially when they can easily go back and learn it when their career aspirations change. By that logic, college students should all have mostly identical course programs full of requisites too because most college kids start out undecided.
No you do not. High school education is about getting a well rounded education. It is not about giving people classes that people will use on the job. The purpose of education is to have a educated populace.
You do not need to give everyone a high school diploma. This is not required.
Could you go into more detail about what a well rounded education is, why things like history and algebra needs to requirement as part of it and not computer skills. Its a pretty vague term.
I don't really understand the question. Education is a standard. High school is generally considered the time where you get a basic education in all fields and when/if you want to specialize you go into college. Everything in high school is completely basic. You don't really go into any depth into any field, even with AP/IB stuff (although those are much closer to college courses).
I'm not exactly what you mean by "computer skills." Computer programming is all algebra, although you'll need some more than just basic algebra as well.
I think I get it. You see education as a doorway to college and everything you learn there is basically fundamentals so when you can get to college you specialize right?
The problem is I still see nothing in that conception of a general education that says algebra should be a requirement, seeing as how very few careers require it. People can list a lot of careers that do but they are still a tiny fraction. The study quoted in the article supports this.
On July 30 2012 11:38 Zahir wrote: Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies...
I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it.
You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me.
Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be.
Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math."
edit:
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
Yeah I'm getting this feeling as well. TLers in high school: "Cut algebra, that shit is so useless and boring!" TLers in university: "Lololol, that shit is so easy and basic, make them learn it, won't hurt!" Others: [Depends on whether or not they did well in algebra in high school]
The problem with this article is the same reasoning can be applied to ANY subject.
Therefore, the only real argument is "lots of people fail and give us bad school statistics, so we should remove it". Every country whose curriculum I'm aware of have algebra components as mandatory. And most of those countries have perfectly competent education results.
If there's a problem with the education system in America, the answer isn't "make it easier". The answer is "make it better".
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Name someone in the past 100 years who did something productive for society in terms of economy or innovation that didn't have a high school degree.
I'll wait.
It's not fucking 1850 anymore, we have formalized systems of education for a reason. You need to know things to get things done.
There is someone missing the point: If you get teached (and actually use) Algebra/Calculus/any form of "higher" math, you dont just learn to do that (specific math), you learn how to think in a logic way. To approach a problem in a certain way, a way of logic and tactic.
I am 100% certain MOST of the people don't need it later in their jobs. But do you need Art later? No you do not. And the value you get from learning logic thinking and logic approaching of problems is so much more valuable than just "that stupid algebra shit".
Storytime: I study Informatic Sciences which is around 70% Mathematics at my University and my calculus Professor told us why we would actually learn it: "Let's face it, there is wolfram alpha, you will never need to know this stuff again. But it's interesting. It's great to get a grasp on logic, on math in general and ITS MAGIC." Oh boy it is. Taylor Approx any1?
And after i read "Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it." i wanted to rage a bit. Where the hell do you expect to go as society if you just cut standards everywhere you want to? Down the drain that is.
Not to hate on american math level but it was a joke when i went over in my highschool year, same as "math based physics".
Oh and one thing i just used (Hai Algebra): If you have a Vector and a Point in R^2 and want to know if the point is right from the Vector or left you can use an easy solution with the determinant of the point matrix. If you are happen to write a program and need something like this it's WAY faster than the classic check.
People saying you should have the option aren't getting right. If you asked a 16 year old me if I wanted to do mathematical subjects I would have said no. However, now I am grateful for doing them because I have a logical understanding about life. I don't think everything happens because of magic.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Name someone in the past 100 years who did something productive for society in terms of economy or innovation that didn't have a high school degree.
I'll wait.
It's not fucking 1850 anymore, we have formalized systems of education for a reason. You need to know things to get things done.
I don't know how about Steve Jobs
Jobs dropped out of college after six months and spent the next 18 months dropping in on creative classes, including a course on calligraphy
Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard too. And there are thousands millionnaire who dropped out. But in my opinion it is not possible today anymore. Also I'm sorry but if Highschool is the equivalent of lycée in France (15-18 yrs old) then I was not talking about that but more about 18 - the rest.
On July 30 2012 12:03 Pimpmuckl wrote: There is someone missing the point: If you get teached (and actually use) Algebra/Calculus/any form of "higher" math, you dont just learn to do that (specific math), you learn how to think in a logic way. To approach a problem in a certain way, a way of logic and tactic.
I am 100% certain MOST of the people don't need it later in their jobs. But do you need Art later? No you do not. And the value you get from learning logic thinking and logic approaching of problems is so much more valuable than just "that stupid algebra shit".
Storytime: I study Informatic Sciences which is around 70% Mathematics at my University and my calculus Professor told us why we would actually learn it: "Let's face it, there is wolfram alpha, you will never need to know this stuff again. But it's interesting. It's great to get a grasp on logic, on math in general and ITS MAGIC." Oh boy it is. Taylor Approx any1?
And after i read "Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it." i wanted to rage a bit. Where the hell do you expect to go as society if you just cut standards everywhere you want to? Down the drain that is.
This has been one of my biggest revelations in university. I always found high school math to be unbelievably boring. University math, on the other hand, is completely ridiculous and really interesting. Especially looking at the proofs that previous mathematicians came up with, it's absolutely mind blowing.
Too bad high schools end up teaching repetitive and boring crap to teenagers.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Our civilization built itself out of people who were less educated than we are now, sure. But if we want to continue to advance and grow we need to advance in all areas of life, which includes education. We didn't get iPhones and the internet by sitting on our butts with algebra-less education.
Our economies were NOT in better shape before the modern education system was developed. I'm not sure where exactly you got that from.
To that end, to everyone who thinks college is worthless. Education is worthless. Degrees are a piece of shit waste of money. Please take a look at very simple statistics from March of 2012. http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm/ Like xrapture said in his horrible post a few page back, America is strong because people can buy shit. Well, educated people can buy more shit than uneducated people. Simple as that.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Name someone in the past 100 years who did something productive for society in terms of economy or innovation that didn't have a high school degree.
I'll wait.
It's not fucking 1850 anymore, we have formalized systems of education for a reason. You need to know things to get things done.
Jobs dropped out of college after six months and spent the next 18 months dropping in on creative classes, including a course on calligraphy
Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard too. And there are thousands millionnaire who dropped out. But in my opinion it is not possible today anymore. Also I'm sorry but if Highschool is the equivalent of lycée in France (15-18 yrs old) then I was not talking about that but more about 18 - the rest.
Jobs dropped out of college, not high school.
Jobs then attended Cupertino Junior High and Homestead High School in Cupertino, California.[2] At Homestead, Jobs became friends with Bill Fernandez, a neighbor who shared the same interests in electronics. Fernandez introduced Jobs to another, older computer whiz kid, Stephen Wozniak (also known as "Woz"). In 1969 Woz started building a little computer board with Fernandez that they named “The Cream Soda Computer”, which they showed to Jobs; he seemed really interested.[41] Jobs frequented after-school lectures at the Hewlett-Packard Company in Palo Alto, California, and was later hired there, working with Wozniak as a summer employee.[42]
Following high school graduation in 1972, Jobs enrolled at Reed College in Portland, Oregon.
edit: and yes "high school" means grades 9-12, i.e. when you're 14-18. that is what the article is talking about.
On July 30 2012 11:38 Zahir wrote: Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies...
I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it.
You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me.
Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be.
Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math."
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.
The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Name someone in the past 100 years who did something productive for society in terms of economy or innovation that didn't have a high school degree.
I'll wait.
It's not fucking 1850 anymore, we have formalized systems of education for a reason. You need to know things to get things done.
Jobs dropped out of college after six months and spent the next 18 months dropping in on creative classes, including a course on calligraphy
Bill Gates dropped out from Harvard too. And there are thousands millionnaire who dropped out. But in my opinion it is not possible today anymore. Also I'm sorry but if Highschool is the equivalent of lycée in France (15-18 yrs old) then I was not talking about that but more about 18 - the rest.
Bill Gates complete high school and seeing how he got into Harvard, he must've completed high school near the top of his class by far.
High school typically ends at 17 or 18 depending on how old you are when you start school, although past 18 years of age education is no longer compulsory and you can choose to not go to school anymore.
On July 30 2012 12:03 Pimpmuckl wrote: There is someone missing the point: If you get teached (and actually use) Algebra/Calculus/any form of "higher" math, you dont just learn to do that (specific math), you learn how to think in a logic way. To approach a problem in a certain way, a way of logic and tactic.
I am 100% certain MOST of the people don't need it later in their jobs. But do you need Art later? No you do not. And the value you get from learning logic thinking and logic approaching of problems is so much more valuable than just "that stupid algebra shit".
Storytime: I study Informatic Sciences which is around 70% Mathematics at my University and my calculus Professor told us why we would actually learn it: "Let's face it, there is wolfram alpha, you will never need to know this stuff again. But it's interesting. It's great to get a grasp on logic, on math in general and ITS MAGIC." Oh boy it is. Taylor Approx any1?
And after i read "Lots of students fail at math, therefore we should stop requiring it." i wanted to rage a bit. Where the hell do you expect to go as society if you just cut standards everywhere you want to? Down the drain that is.
This has been one of my biggest revelations in university. I always found high school math to be unbelievably boring. University math, on the other hand, is completely ridiculous and really interesting. Especially looking at the proofs that previous mathematicians came up with, it's absolutely mind blowing.
Too bad high schools end up teaching repetitive and boring crap to teenagers.
Yes, you have a point there, even in germany where you are split up in 3 different school-styles the "fastest" is still really slow if you are actually willing to learn something. But if you are faster and teach more background you will loose too many slower students. Still i think it's important to set standards and if algebra is in those it is good.
And i don't get the point of "Took you years to learn now would take you x days". Isn't that with ALL things the case? If i would need to put up the whole 16th-18th century in Asia in one week i would just roll over the interwebs and some good books and pull that stuff out there altough i took a year in school for it.
Ehh...computer programming is more like manipulating language, syntax, and logic to arrive at what you want. Computer science is pretty much all math though.
Computer programming (a large part of my job, btw) is basically just algebra. Learning syntax is a part of it, but it's a very small part (any programming language can be learned in two hours or less by a competent programmer).
Algebra = logical manipulation of variables. Not saying that everybody needs to know about the quadradic equation (although it can't hurt), but basic algebra is required by a surprising amount of jobs. For most jobs that don't directly require algebra, they require the skills that algebra develops.
Anyway, algebra is absolutely nessecary to be tought in schools, up until you are about 16 at the very least. After that, IMO, students should start to specialise a bit and while I believe math of some sort should be compulsory until university (college in the US), there should be multiple math subjects to cater to different people's needs.
I'm not sure exactly how it works in the US, but in Australia we do basic trig->algebra->more advanced trig->calculus, IIRC. Before you get to the more advanced trig and calculus you can do an easier math that is more about statistics or something (I didn't do it). It's a bit more jumbled (and some things have changed, I helped my brother with his matrices homework the other day, which I didn't learn about until university maths), because obviously most of those things are inter-related.
On July 30 2012 11:38 Zahir wrote: Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies...
I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it.
You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me.
Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be.
Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math."
edit:
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.
The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
CS degrees generally require 2-3 semesters of calculus and some combination of linear algebra, statistics, and diff eq. Anyone wanting to go into CS absolutely needs to take algebra and trig in HS unless they want to be way behind, and most take some calc in high school.
In most states, you only need two years of math to graduate. Two years. That's it. That means, past the age of 16, math is no longer a necessary requirement for graduation (provided you pass the exit exam and have sufficient class time ofc). And the author of the article in the OP wants to cut standards even more. Holy shit.
I did programming without math and it's near impossible without some form of knowledge of algebra. I ended up doing a Computer Science Degree just so that I could get an understanding.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Our civilization built itself out of people who were less educated than we are now, sure. But if we want to continue to advance and grow we need to advance in all areas of life, which includes education. We didn't get iPhones and the internet by sitting on our butts with algebra-less education.
Our economies were NOT in better shape before the modern education system was developed. I'm not sure where exactly you got that from.
To that end, to everyone who thinks college is worthless. Education is worthless. Degrees are a piece of shit waste of money. Please take a look at very simple statistics from March of 2012. http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm/ Like xrapture said in his horrible post a few page back, America is strong because people can buy shit. Well, educated people can buy more shit than uneducated people. Simple as that.
Yes our economy were in better shape during the 30 glorious, when a degree wasn't necessarily required to work. I'm not talking about when the modern education system was developped, more when going through the education system became the norm (1980 more or less). During 1950-1980 we didn't had a lot of high end degree (so what you call college ?), not even the third of what we have now.
On July 30 2012 11:38 Zahir wrote: Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies...
I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it.
You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me.
Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be.
Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math."
edit:
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.
The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
No. To understand algorithms well enough for comp sci you need substantially more than a week of algebra. Big-O notation is useless without high school maths - you need to be able to manipulate and differentiate many different functions include polynomial and logarithmic functions in order to show anything useful. If you have not previously spent time learning it, you will not get it in a week.
Logic is maths, patterns can be defined in maths - and you will need to do so in CS.
as a prospective mathematician, i think basic algebra and calculus is required for human to perform daily chores and make wiser decisions overall. people failing doesnt mean the education system need to compromise, teach harder -____-
also theres a saying, maths is the mother of all discipline lol but from another pov, policy makers need to determine how much of algebra people need to learn, im sure those who are into art and history won't need to know how to prove sophisticated formulas but still need to know what is differentiation what is integration how to solve a basic simultaneous equation as they can be handy in daily life.
as a chinese/asian, i dont understand the point of this article.
Too many students drop out of school because some subjects are too hard? Np, just remove them and let them all pass. Make America a country, where everybody gets a high school diploma, a modern athens! Suddenly, statistics tell America has the highest educational standart.
On July 30 2012 11:50 Ryuu314 wrote: I can't believe people actually think education is overrated and is a bad thing. Honestly, is it simply a coincidence that the most highly educated countries in the world are also the most developed, powerful, and stable?
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
You are mystaking a lot of things. By education I mean having a degree in highschool college or whatever institution the country has. I'm sorry but most of our civilisation built itself out of people who didn't had the chance to go to such institution and to get any degree in anything, yet it doesn't mean they were less productiv, less critics toward their environment or whatever. You should see history ; the rise of degree and highschool is not that old, and our economies were actually in better shape before the current time where a degree is needed to do anything.
Our civilization built itself out of people who were less educated than we are now, sure. But if we want to continue to advance and grow we need to advance in all areas of life, which includes education. We didn't get iPhones and the internet by sitting on our butts with algebra-less education.
Our economies were NOT in better shape before the modern education system was developed. I'm not sure where exactly you got that from.
To that end, to everyone who thinks college is worthless. Education is worthless. Degrees are a piece of shit waste of money. Please take a look at very simple statistics from March of 2012. http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm/ Like xrapture said in his horrible post a few page back, America is strong because people can buy shit. Well, educated people can buy more shit than uneducated people. Simple as that.
Yes our economy were in better shape during the 30 glorious, when a degree wasn't necessarily required to work. I'm not talking about when the modern education system was developped, more when going through the education system became the norm (1980 more or less). During 1950-1980 we didn't had a lot of high end degree (so what you call college ?), not even the third of what we have now.
Well, I can't speak for France, but the US economy in the 1950-1980 was strong because of the Cold War driving the economy. During that time, education funding shot through the roof. Your time frame kinda contradicts what you're saying. There were less degrees during that time, yes, but that's because higher education (colleges) weren't as accessible or popular to people as they are now. But during that time period, education was MUCH more highly valued and funded by the US. Education standards were raised during that period of time, as well.
Also, I think you're arguing about higher education. This discussion is mostly about secondary education, which is basically under 18.
The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
Last time I checked the buddies I have who study Medicine, Psychology, Literature (yarly), Sociology, Geology and also (yarly) Archeology ALL need some form of math knowledge in their courses.
Not sure why people are trying to argue that basic math or rather being familar with mathematical concepts and mathematical thinking in general isn't required in fields like IT or programming which is WAY closer than most of the above.
On July 30 2012 12:53 Melvin0000 wrote: The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
As I said earlier.. unless someone wants to argue that students in the USA are lazier/dumber than students in e.g. Finland or even Germany... one usually ends up with some kind of "Hey... maybe... just maybe our educational system is weaker in general!"
If the political science professor can explain how knowledge of the the 30 years war is more necessary knowledge for all students than being to calculate how much I owe if my grocery bill was $18 but I had them put back 4 apples at 30 cents a piece I'm all ears.
Nothing other than incredibly rudimentary grammar and vocabulary is of much universal use, but we still teach things in school. What a moronic article.
I find this article rather ridiculous. I can absolutely agree that many people are not going to use algebra every day in their lives. However, there are probably fewer people who use their knowledge about the US civil war, the Holocaust, the World Wars, the Cold War, etc in their daily lives, yet those are required and for good reason.
You do not learn algebra because it's useful. You learn algebra because once you learn algebra you'll think about the world differently and will be a better person, just like learning about the wars that have happened throughout history. This is exactly the reason why people have a hard time learning algebra. You go through much of your early schooling with a single perspective on the world, and especially in math many people are taught that there is only one correct answer and that your goal is to correctly apply procedures to arrive at that answer.
Really, that's not math.
If you really learn algebra, you realize that it's not about arriving at an answer, but expressing relationships between quantities and deducing new relationships from ones that you already know. Sometimes that allows you to reduce the space to a small set of possibilities, which is commonly known as ``solving''. I would expect that most people who go through high school never really pick up on this perspective, and I would not be surprised if the people teaching also don't fully understand why algebra is so important.
On July 30 2012 11:38 Zahir wrote: Like I am I the only one who sees the flawed reasoning here? I pointed out that history, algebra, etc are much less likely to be used in a career than say, comp sci or Spanish, and even pointed to studies...
I ask why algebra should be a requirement for education and ppl say "because it's part of a well rounded education".. You can't just say a term and then not Define or justify it.
You do realize that comp sci has math way beyond basic algebra as a graduation requirement at literally every college, right...? Nevermind the fact that even an intro CS class is all about manipulating variables and having a solid grasp of how you want them to interact, which sounds a lot like algebra to me.
Also, the fact that comp sci isn't part of a high school diploma is because it's not established. That's a problem, but it's not really what we're talking about. Whether CS should or shouldn't be taught (I think it should) is entirely irrelevant to this debate, which is whether algebra should be.
Anyway, I think you're vastly underestimating how useful algebra is in a professional setting. You cited a study that says that 5% of people end up working in a STEM field, but the mere fact that the author of the original article was citing that fact shows his (and your) misunderstanding of how many people need math. Anyone who works in finance, accounting, actuarial services, inventory management, medicine, and hundreds of other professions I can't be bothered to list needs to know math. "STEM" means engineers, scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientists, but it absolutely does not mean "person who uses math."
edit:
I'm really curious as to how many people arguing against teaching basic math in high school are in high school themselves -.- I'd add a poll, but the results would be so skewed with people lying about their age lol
I have to agree, even though it's a little offensive. I can't help getting the sense that the people who think algebra isn't important are people who either struggled with it themselves or are pissed that they have to take it. It's pretty normal to diminish the importance of things you're bad at or dislike; I, for example, have a notorious reputation among my peers for thinking the liberal arts are a waste of time, and it's probably not coincidence that I'm not very good at that kind of stuff.
The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
No. To understand algorithms well enough for comp sci you need substantially more than a week of algebra. Big-O notation is useless without high school maths - you need to be able to manipulate and differentiate many different functions include polynomial and logarithmic functions in order to show anything useful. If you have not previously spent time learning it, you will not get it in a week.
Logic is maths, patterns can be defined in maths - and you will need to do so in CS.
Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
My point is that stuff is so easy you could learn it within a couple of weeks. It only takes a long time because you are either dragged down by the rest of the class who don't give a shit, or you are not interested yourself.
On July 30 2012 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
No. To understand algorithms well enough for comp sci you need substantially more than a week of algebra. Big-O notation is useless without high school maths - you need to be able to manipulate and differentiate many different functions include polynomial and logarithmic functions in order to show anything useful. If you have not previously spent time learning it, you will not get it in a week.
Logic is maths, patterns can be defined in maths - and you will need to do so in CS.
Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
Hmm, seems like you have an extremely narrow definition of math? Discrete math is still math. Yes, it isn't really taught in high schools, but that doesn't change the fact that all algorithms require both verification of correctness and time/space complexity analysis... which are both math.
Also,
Wikipedia wrote: Lambda calculus (also written as λ-calculus or called "the lambda calculus") is a formal system in mathematical logic for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.
There's a good reason schools like MIT cross-list algorithms and logic in the math department.
On July 30 2012 12:53 Melvin0000 wrote: The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
As I said earlier.. unless someone wants to argue that students in the USA are lazier/dumber than students in e.g. Finland or even Germany... one usually ends up with some kind of "Hey... maybe... just maybe our educational system is weaker in general!"
Culture is the problem. The US doesn't wanna pay higher taxes for education like they do in Europe. The bottom line is higher education tax = better education.
You can have all these policies like grading teachers, but all that does is increase the discrepancy in grading students, which means students that would have gotten a C may end up getting an A instead. That's the problem we have in private schools, if you want a student to go to a good university send him to a private school. The private schools just artificially inflate the scores so they look good when people see all their students going to good universities (although they do have better teaching regardless). Sure the more you pay, a lot of the extra money may still go to bad teachers, but the extra money inventivenesses industry experts and professors to start teaching instead. That's why the best teachers here are all at private schools because they get paid so much more.
The nature of this is that the process for replacement of good teachers may take 10 years for the investment to have an effect, by that time government has changed and the new government ends up looking good instead, but that's the bottom line, there really is no way around it.
On July 30 2012 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
No. To understand algorithms well enough for comp sci you need substantially more than a week of algebra. Big-O notation is useless without high school maths - you need to be able to manipulate and differentiate many different functions include polynomial and logarithmic functions in order to show anything useful. If you have not previously spent time learning it, you will not get it in a week.
Logic is maths, patterns can be defined in maths - and you will need to do so in CS.
Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
Hmm, seems like you have an extremely narrow definition of math? Discrete math is still math. Yes, it isn't really taught in high schools, but that doesn't change the fact that all algorithms require both verification of correctness and time/space complexity analysis... which are both math.
Wikipedia wrote: Lambda calculus (also written as λ-calculus or called "the lambda calculus") is a formal system in mathematical logic for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.
There's a good reason schools like MIT cross-list algorithms and logic in the math department.
Discrete math is best math. I do wonder how many people only assume they are terrible aat math because no-one has explained to them what math is. If my entire definition of math was differential calculus, I would like it much less.
On July 30 2012 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week, and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that. With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns. The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
No. To understand algorithms well enough for comp sci you need substantially more than a week of algebra. Big-O notation is useless without high school maths - you need to be able to manipulate and differentiate many different functions include polynomial and logarithmic functions in order to show anything useful. If you have not previously spent time learning it, you will not get it in a week.
Logic is maths, patterns can be defined in maths - and you will need to do so in CS.
Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
Hmm, seems like you have an extremely narrow definition of math? Discrete math is still math. Yes, it isn't really taught in high schools, but that doesn't change the fact that all algorithms require both verification of correctness and time/space complexity analysis... which are both math.
Wikipedia wrote: Lambda calculus (also written as λ-calculus or called "the lambda calculus") is a formal system in mathematical logic for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.
There's a good reason schools like MIT cross-list algorithms and logic in the math department.
I agree, know they fall under the same umbrella, but you are missing the point of my argument.
On July 30 2012 12:53 Melvin0000 wrote: The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
As I said earlier.. unless someone wants to argue that students in the USA are lazier/dumber than students in e.g. Finland or even Germany... one usually ends up with some kind of "Hey... maybe... just maybe our educational system is weaker in general!"
Culture is the problem. The US doesn't wanna pay higher taxes for education like they do in Europe. The bottom line is higher education tax = better education.
You can have all these policies like grading teachers, but all that does is increase the discrepancy in grading students, which means students that would have gotten a C may end up getting an A instead. That's the problem we have in private schools, if you want a student to go to a good university send him to a private school. The private schools just artificially inflate the scores so they look good when people see all their students going to good universities (although they do have better teaching regardless). Sure the more you pay, a lot of the extra money may still go to bad teachers, but the extra money inventivenesses industry experts and professors to start teaching instead. That's why the best teachers here are all at private schools because they get paid so much more.
The nature of this is that the process for replacement of good teachers may take 10 years for the investment to have an effect, by that time government has changed and the new government ends up looking good instead, but that's the bottom line, there really is no way around it.
I think the word you were looking for is incentivize. Also, I agree that the USA has a poor educational system. Germany students, for example, go into one of five different types of secondary school much earlier on (10-12ish, i think). Where as, in USA, we all go to the same secondary school (middle & high school) until we are apprx 18.
PS. This is a terrible opinion article that grossly misinterprets Georgetown's research to better serve the authors agenda (refer to page 33). But that is American media for you, as well. And you guys are getting way off-topic, this is about ALGEBRA.
On July 30 2012 12:53 Melvin0000 wrote: The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
As I said earlier.. unless someone wants to argue that students in the USA are lazier/dumber than students in e.g. Finland or even Germany... one usually ends up with some kind of "Hey... maybe... just maybe our educational system is weaker in general!"
Culture is the problem. The US doesn't wanna pay higher taxes for education like they do in Europe. The bottom line is higher education tax = better education.
You can have all these policies like grading teachers, but all that does is increase the discrepancy in grading students, which means students that would have gotten a C may end up getting an A instead. That's the problem we have in private schools, if you want a student to go to a good university send him to a private school. The private schools just artificially inflate the scores so they look good when people see all their students going to good universities (although they do have better teaching regardless). Sure the more you pay, a lot of the extra money may still go to bad teachers, but the extra money inventivenesses industry experts and professors to start teaching instead. That's why the best teachers here are all at private schools because they get paid so much more.
The nature of this is that the process for replacement of good teachers may take 10 years for the investment to have an effect, by that time government has changed and the new government ends up looking good instead, but that's the bottom line, there really is no way around it.
I think the word you were looking for is incentivize. Also, I agree that the USA has a poor educational system. Germany students, for example, go into one of five different types of secondary school much earlier on (10-12ish, i think). Where as, in USA, we all go to the same secondary school (middle & high school) until we are apprx 18.
PS. This is a terrible opinion article that grossly misinterprets Georgetown's research to better serve the authors agenda (refer to page 33). But that is American media for you, as well.
Lol I could have sworn I wrote incentivise, damn autocorrect? But what I wrote is still not a word... damn
On July 30 2012 12:53 Melvin0000 wrote: The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
As I said earlier.. unless someone wants to argue that students in the USA are lazier/dumber than students in e.g. Finland or even Germany... one usually ends up with some kind of "Hey... maybe... just maybe our educational system is weaker in general!"
Culture is the problem. The US doesn't wanna pay higher taxes for education like they do in Europe. The bottom line is higher education tax = better education.
We actually pay more per capita for education than all, or at least most. We just have a pretty inefficient system. The only credit I'd give our non-university system is that you're not locked into a certain educational path from childhood based on interests or intelligence.
The last time I used algebra was trying to guess how much I would have to pay rent for 9 more days, most stuff I use is reeeaally simple math, like mnus my miles by state borders/adding. Schooling in general could use a revamp... like way more hands on, because honestly kids won't even write 30 years from now, any problem will have a calc on w.e device or an app for that.
I think the funny part here is that in Finland people are also very worried about our math standards and they're actually rising be bar again, e.g. in University admissions maths are getting a bigger part aswell as in the ground school. Also the fact that Germany has many types of secondary school is not the key, in Finland everyone, I mean everyone, goes to the same type of school for 9 year, from 7 to 15 years of age.
I think the problem is the same here as with general knowlege, we used to call people who didn't know history or weren't interested in politics stupid and ignorant. Now we accept that not eveyrone needs to be interested in certain areas. Same goes with maths. We shouldn't accept that and just keep calling those people stupid.
I find math to be extremely important to a Computer Scientist. It helps to reinforce fundamentals of structured programming in how to properly solve a problem (as opposed to spaghetti and ravioli code) and the higher levels will reinforce of picking and demonstrating the best algorithm to solve a problem with multi-step / complex problems reinforcing OOP by making a student break down the problem into smaller easier steps.
On July 30 2012 13:41 sluggaslamoo wrote: Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
Hmm, seems like you have an extremely narrow definition of math? Discrete math is still math. Yes, it isn't really taught in high schools, but that doesn't change the fact that all algorithms require both verification of correctness and time/space complexity analysis... which are both math.
Also,
Wikipedia wrote: Lambda calculus (also written as λ-calculus or called "the lambda calculus") is a formal system in mathematical logic for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.
There's a good reason schools like MIT cross-list algorithms and logic in the math department.
I agree, know they fall under the same umbrella, but you are missing the point of my argument.
Hmm, well then, what's your argument?
On July 30 2012 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week,
This is false; you need to know about things like exponential functions and polynomials and logarithms and their relative growth rates.
and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that.
Algebra is a tool, much like arithmetic, which is necessary for understanding computer science. You don't study high-school algebra just to "do algebra" later. Indeed,
With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns.
Algebra is among the first steps in gaining the mathematical (or more generally, intellectual) maturity to think abstractly---and abstract thought is essential in any sort of technical subject. There's "logic" and "patterns" to be learned in algebra as well.
The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Yes, most high schools don't teach it (which suggests that high schools ought to offer more math classes, though that's sort of unrelated to whether algebra should be mandatory or not.) But to learn lambda calculus or big-O notation requires algebraic abstraction.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
Very true for anyone in a technical field, though perhaps not so much for those who are not so inclined. American schools spend far too much time on rote memorization of arithmetic and the like, while Eastern European/Asian schools introduce interesting problems (i.e. not just regurgitating formulae) early on.
On your friends who were "bad at math" yet brilliant programmers/computer scientists: high school geometry (a sad excuse for the word "geometry"), trigonometry (more memorization), and calculus (yet more memorization, though often at this level there may be glimpses of actual mathematics) are, indeed, not so relevant to discrete math and problem solving. But the solution here isn't to get rid of them or make them electives; it's to improve the teaching of these subjects so that it does actually teach problem solving.
On July 30 2012 14:31 Soyemia wrote: I think the funny part here is that in Finland people are also very worried about our math standards and they're actually rising be bar again, e.g. in University admissions maths are getting a bigger part aswell as in the ground school. Also the fact that Germany has many types of secondary school is not the key, in Finland everyone, I mean everyone, goes to the same type of school for 9 year, from 7 to 15 years of age.
I think the problem is the same here as with general knowlege, we used to call people who didn't know history or weren't interested in politics stupid and ignorant. Now we accept that not eveyrone needs to be interested in certain areas. Same goes with maths. We shouldn't accept that and just keep calling those people stupid.
I was just using Germany as an example for what you stated...ie. not everyone needs to have as much general knowledge as is required and some people simply aren't interested in certain things. However, everyone should have a certain amount of general knowledge (just maybe not as much, ie in school until 18 for it) and I believe algebra is something everyone should know...it is extremely useful in life, especially finances.
On July 29 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote: I understand the basic problem - looking for ways to make education more accessible - but removing a subject because people don't like it or don't do well at it is the wrong way to go about it.
People don't HAVE to be bad at math. Not everybody is going to ace their college calc courses, but basic algebra doesn't really require mental pushups. We are bad at math because we don't care about it, and because we spend most of our lives talking about why we don't care about it.
Think about it. How many times have you asked yourself, or been asked, where you're going to use a math course in the future? We lack a fundamental appreciation for the basic goal of basic math courses: To make ourselves comfortable with numbers, and to gain an appreciation, at a really personal level, for how much they impact our lives.
Maybe you'll never need to use precisely what you learn in high school algebra. But then, you'll probably never need to know why the war of 1812 was fought, either. You can get by without both. But ask anyone why they're learning history, and you've got a decent chance of hearing, "because those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it." I've heard no such similar slogan for mathematics, and that's not math's fault. It's ours.
Those who don't understand numbers in a world that's run by them are destined to flounder.
Imagine if all those people getting tricked into subprime loans had been mathematically literate enough to whip out a pencil and paper when they were presented with the terms of the loan, and figure out that they probably couldn't afford it. Wouldn't have helped everyone (some of them were just too desperate) but I assert that it would have been a good start.
That's why we have experts and statisticians. I never understood the need for math with all the advanced computers around.
On July 29 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote: I understand the basic problem - looking for ways to make education more accessible - but removing a subject because people don't like it or don't do well at it is the wrong way to go about it.
People don't HAVE to be bad at math. Not everybody is going to ace their college calc courses, but basic algebra doesn't really require mental pushups. We are bad at math because we don't care about it, and because we spend most of our lives talking about why we don't care about it.
Think about it. How many times have you asked yourself, or been asked, where you're going to use a math course in the future? We lack a fundamental appreciation for the basic goal of basic math courses: To make ourselves comfortable with numbers, and to gain an appreciation, at a really personal level, for how much they impact our lives.
Maybe you'll never need to use precisely what you learn in high school algebra. But then, you'll probably never need to know why the war of 1812 was fought, either. You can get by without both. But ask anyone why they're learning history, and you've got a decent chance of hearing, "because those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it." I've heard no such similar slogan for mathematics, and that's not math's fault. It's ours.
Those who don't understand numbers in a world that's run by them are destined to flounder.
Imagine if all those people getting tricked into subprime loans had been mathematically literate enough to whip out a pencil and paper when they were presented with the terms of the loan, and figure out that they probably couldn't afford it. Wouldn't have helped everyone (some of them were just too desperate) but I assert that it would have been a good start.
That's why we have experts and statisticians. I never understood the need for math with all the advanced computers around.
Computers don't solve your problem for you. They just do the calculations to save you time and possibility for error. If you don't understand how it works, you get nowhere. There's a saying involving computers: garbage in, garbage out. If you know nothing, computers are worthless.
Algebra is not that hard. Anyone that puts any kind of effort in can get an A in high school math. Stopping teaching it to everyone because we are falling behind the rest of the world in math scores would just be giving up on real intelligence. Algebra is something that everyone should know. As much as kids that are too cool for it like to pretend that they are never going to use it, everyone that knows it uses it every day. Maybe I over appreciate it as a physics major, but anyone failing algebra isn't trying.
hmm yes i believe it is possible to teach people to think scientifically and logically without them necessarily being able to understand algebra.
is algebra really this difficult? i did not like algebra when i was a child not because i didnt understand the concepts but because it was taught in a very meaningless manner. it wasn't until liake the later half of pre calc that i started thinking math was interesting (talking about limits and what not) and I was more inclined to learn and memorize what was needed to be successful. hmm there are a lot of really interesting philosphical ideas within math and applications that are never introduced in school (and i went to some pretty good high schools).
although i don't really enjoy doing proofs or what not, i can appreciate the beauty behind mathematics, but most of that was self realized, for the greater part of my mathemaical educaiton, school just makes it more boring.
On July 30 2012 12:53 Melvin0000 wrote: The problem, from my highschool in a small town in Illinois, wasn't the course material that was the reason for people failing, but the teaching. The teachers, for the most part, would just write notes on the board straight out of the book and then assign homework and that would be every class of the week. This wasn't just for algebra, but even the high school calculus classes I took. I barely passed all the math classes that I took, not because I didn't know the material, but because I didn't do any of the hours of homework they would assign every night. I feel that the school system and the teachers are the problem for the students being uninspired to try hard in school and the reason that they don't pass the classes.
As I said earlier.. unless someone wants to argue that students in the USA are lazier/dumber than students in e.g. Finland or even Germany... one usually ends up with some kind of "Hey... maybe... just maybe our educational system is weaker in general!"
Culture is the problem. The US doesn't wanna pay higher taxes for education like they do in Europe. The bottom line is higher education tax = better education.
You can have all these policies like grading teachers, but all that does is increase the discrepancy in grading students, which means students that would have gotten a C may end up getting an A instead. That's the problem we have in private schools, if you want a student to go to a good university send him to a private school. The private schools just artificially inflate the scores so they look good when people see all their students going to good universities (although they do have better teaching regardless). Sure the more you pay, a lot of the extra money may still go to bad teachers, but the extra money inventivenesses industry experts and professors to start teaching instead. That's why the best teachers here are all at private schools because they get paid so much more.
The nature of this is that the process for replacement of good teachers may take 10 years for the investment to have an effect, by that time government has changed and the new government ends up looking good instead, but that's the bottom line, there really is no way around it.
I think the word you were looking for is incentivize. Also, I agree that the USA has a poor educational system. Germany students, for example, go into one of five different types of secondary school much earlier on (10-12ish, i think). Where as, in USA, we all go to the same secondary school (middle & high school) until we are apprx 18.
PS. This is a terrible opinion article that grossly misinterprets Georgetown's research to better serve the authors agenda (refer to page 33). But that is American media for you, as well. And you guys are getting way off-topic, this is about ALGEBRA.
Uh. Since someone already quoted the finnish system I might as well try and explain the German one real quick:
1st - 4th grade (6-10) = elementary school. We don't really have some kind of pre-school. Right there (which is probably the most discussed part about our school system) the kids go onto one out of 3 different types of school depending on their performance in 4th grade. While switching between those types of schools IS possible they aim to teach different things and in some subjects (e.g. math) the stuff is so vastly different that switching is really hard later down the road.
a) "Hauptschule" (5th to 9th grade, aims to get students into.. let's say classic worker jobs. Their math is e.g. closer to what you'd need as a cashier and they have (or used to, not 100% sure) subjects where they learn cooking and stuff.)
b) "Realschule" (5th to 10th grade, it's basically in the middle of the other two. They are above the future "workers" and below the future "academics")
c) "Gymnasium" (5th to 12th/13th grade, basically aims to prepare you for university and a future career in academics)
Of course it's possible to achieve all of the degrees via education later on in your life but what could cost you 1-2 years earlier will definitly turn into a 3-5 year effort if you didn't do it "right" before you're leaving school. Another major thing is that education here is a matter of the individual countries and not the whole state which leads to rather big differences up to the point that a future employee might reject you if you come from Berlin but will love to take you if you got the "same" education from Bavaria.
On July 29 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote: I understand the basic problem - looking for ways to make education more accessible - but removing a subject because people don't like it or don't do well at it is the wrong way to go about it.
People don't HAVE to be bad at math. Not everybody is going to ace their college calc courses, but basic algebra doesn't really require mental pushups. We are bad at math because we don't care about it, and because we spend most of our lives talking about why we don't care about it.
Think about it. How many times have you asked yourself, or been asked, where you're going to use a math course in the future? We lack a fundamental appreciation for the basic goal of basic math courses: To make ourselves comfortable with numbers, and to gain an appreciation, at a really personal level, for how much they impact our lives.
Maybe you'll never need to use precisely what you learn in high school algebra. But then, you'll probably never need to know why the war of 1812 was fought, either. You can get by without both. But ask anyone why they're learning history, and you've got a decent chance of hearing, "because those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it." I've heard no such similar slogan for mathematics, and that's not math's fault. It's ours.
Those who don't understand numbers in a world that's run by them are destined to flounder.
Imagine if all those people getting tricked into subprime loans had been mathematically literate enough to whip out a pencil and paper when they were presented with the terms of the loan, and figure out that they probably couldn't afford it. Wouldn't have helped everyone (some of them were just too desperate) but I assert that it would have been a good start.
That's why we have experts and statisticians. I never understood the need for math with all the advanced computers around.
Computers don't solve your problem for you. They just do the calculations to save you time and possibility for error. If you don't understand how it works, you get nowhere. There's a saying involving computers: garbage in, garbage out. If you know nothing, computers are worthless.
yet we still learn differential equations, they still teach you proofs in linear algebra, and you have to learn several rather useless methods of integration in calculus.
dont get me wrong, i loved calculus, i did well in like all of these classes, but practically none of it is useful other than knowing the basis of the ideas.
same goes for most of the probability theory i've taken.
hell we spent all this time in regression analysis talkint about the matrix constructs, and in the end none of it is really useful. i dont even think linear algebra is really necessary to understand regression or to use it in any practical manner.
you're right though computers do not solve things for you, they merely speed up the calculations, you still need to know how to correctly model, or think about a problem, which mathematics education certainly SHOULD be helping, but mostly math classes as i far as i can remember just emphasize rote computation,memorization and most word problems that are given (even if they are given) are poorly written or don't really stress those analytical methods well.
its a problem in the US if most of middle/high school teachers are incompetent.
this is because you don't have to be academically excellent to become a middle/high school teacher.
then it rolls on.
anyone can confirm with personal experience and stories?
I was on the college track to become a highschool physics teacher for a while, and I can assure you that to be a middle/high school teacher you just have to know how to be a good baby sitter, not good at the area you teach. The vast majority of secondary math teachers are terrible. A lot of them don't even know what they are teaching.
On July 29 2012 23:56 Vega62a wrote: I understand the basic problem - looking for ways to make education more accessible - but removing a subject because people don't like it or don't do well at it is the wrong way to go about it.
People don't HAVE to be bad at math. Not everybody is going to ace their college calc courses, but basic algebra doesn't really require mental pushups. We are bad at math because we don't care about it, and because we spend most of our lives talking about why we don't care about it.
Think about it. How many times have you asked yourself, or been asked, where you're going to use a math course in the future? We lack a fundamental appreciation for the basic goal of basic math courses: To make ourselves comfortable with numbers, and to gain an appreciation, at a really personal level, for how much they impact our lives.
Maybe you'll never need to use precisely what you learn in high school algebra. But then, you'll probably never need to know why the war of 1812 was fought, either. You can get by without both. But ask anyone why they're learning history, and you've got a decent chance of hearing, "because those who don't remember the past are destined to repeat it." I've heard no such similar slogan for mathematics, and that's not math's fault. It's ours.
Those who don't understand numbers in a world that's run by them are destined to flounder.
Imagine if all those people getting tricked into subprime loans had been mathematically literate enough to whip out a pencil and paper when they were presented with the terms of the loan, and figure out that they probably couldn't afford it. Wouldn't have helped everyone (some of them were just too desperate) but I assert that it would have been a good start.
That's why we have experts and statisticians. I never understood the need for math with all the advanced computers around.
If you do not understand the mathematics underlying the problem, you will not know what questions you can try to ask the computer.
its a problem in the US if most of middle/high school teachers are incompetent.
this is because you don't have to be academically excellent to become a middle/high school teacher.
then it rolls on.
anyone can confirm with personal experience and stories?
I was on the college track to become a highschool physics teacher for a while, and I can assure you that to be a middle/high school teacher you just have to know how to be a good baby sitter, not good at the area you teach. The vast majority of secondary math teachers are terrible. A lot of them don't even know what they are teaching.
hmm really? some math education majors i know for high school have to take a 2nd semster of proof based linear algebra, its almost the same as a full blow math major.
although i dont realyl undrstand it, because i've definitely had hs teachers who were imcompetet.
i dont really understand why you're allowed to get a degree in education and be hired as a teacher, the primary degree should be the subject that you're to teach...there's like plenty of research that's been done on this mattter. its fucking disingenuous as hell.
hmm really? some math education majors i know for high school have to take a 2nd semster of proof based linear algebra, its almost the same as a full blow math major.
Yeah. It was really sad to me because I wanted to be a teacher for a long time, but my eyes were opened to the fact that to be a physics teacher, my passion should be teaching, not physics.
its a problem in the US if most of middle/high school teachers are incompetent.
this is because you don't have to be academically excellent to become a middle/high school teacher.
then it rolls on.
anyone can confirm with personal experience and stories?
I was on the college track to become a highschool physics teacher for a while, and I can assure you that to be a middle/high school teacher you just have to know how to be a good baby sitter, not good at the area you teach. The vast majority of secondary math teachers are terrible. A lot of them don't even know what they are teaching.
hmm really? some math education majors i know for high school have to take a 2nd semster of proof based linear algebra, its almost the same as a full blow math major.
although i dont realyl undrstand it, because i've definitely had hs teachers who were imcompetet.
i dont really understand why you're allowed to get a degree in education and be hired as a teacher, the primary degree should be the subject that you're to teach...there's like plenty of research that's been done on this mattter. its fucking disingenuous as hell.
Waitwaitwaitwhat. Hold on. Now I have to ask. Is it normal in the USA to get a degree in education and have your subject as some kind of secondary thing?
Over here for the higher schools (Gymnasium) teachers have the exact same subjects as a BA student (and some pedagogics on top of that) for the others it's a seperate subject at university - but also with the primary focus on the subject and a - sometimes too small - focus on pedagogics and methodical stuff.
People here actually have a tendency to complain about our teachers knowing too much about their subjects and too little about as to how they should deal with kids.
On July 30 2012 13:41 sluggaslamoo wrote: Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
Hmm, seems like you have an extremely narrow definition of math? Discrete math is still math. Yes, it isn't really taught in high schools, but that doesn't change the fact that all algorithms require both verification of correctness and time/space complexity analysis... which are both math.
Also,
Wikipedia wrote: Lambda calculus (also written as λ-calculus or called "the lambda calculus") is a formal system in mathematical logic for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.
There's a good reason schools like MIT cross-list algorithms and logic in the math department.
I agree, know they fall under the same umbrella, but you are missing the point of my argument.
and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that.
Algebra is a tool, much like arithmetic, which is necessary for understanding computer science. You don't study high-school algebra just to "do algebra" later. Indeed,
With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns.
Algebra is among the first steps in gaining the mathematical (or more generally, intellectual) maturity to think abstractly---and abstract thought is essential in any sort of technical subject. There's "logic" and "patterns" to be learned in algebra as well.
The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Yes, most high schools don't teach it (which suggests that high schools ought to offer more math classes, though that's sort of unrelated to whether algebra should be mandatory or not.) But to learn lambda calculus or big-O notation requires algebraic abstraction.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
Very true for anyone in a technical field, though perhaps not so much for those who are not so inclined. American schools spend far too much time on rote memorization of arithmetic and the like, while Eastern European/Asian schools introduce interesting problems (i.e. not just regurgitating formulae) early on.
On your friends who were "bad at math" yet brilliant programmers/computer scientists: high school geometry (a sad excuse for the word "geometry"), trigonometry (more memorization), and calculus (yet more memorization, though often at this level there may be glimpses of actual mathematics) are, indeed, not so relevant to discrete math and problem solving. But the solution here isn't to get rid of them or make them electives; it's to improve the teaching of these subjects so that it does actually teach problem solving.
Exponential functions and polynomials can be learned in just a few days, I don't see why it would take any longer than that. I learned polynomial functions when I was 12 years old in just a few days, and I learned how to do it by balancing experience point calculations in excel for a game I was making.
My point is that learning things before it has relevance is pointless. There is only point to learning something when there is relevance. It doesn't matter how good you are at teaching, if you can't see e.g algebra, having any benefit to your future career its gonna take months instead of days to learn, and your ability to recall it will diminish significantly within the next few weeks. That time could have been much more efficiently spent learning material relevant to your future career.
If I'm gonna become a panel beater when I grow up, it doesn't matter how good the teacher is, I'm not gonna give a shit about maths. It makes no sense to put future panel beaters with future maths professors in the same class. There's nothing wrong with education, if this panel beater ends up leaving school without knowledge of algebra, because regardless of whether algebra is taught or not, this person is going to leave school without knowledge of algebra. The only difference is that in one case, he can leave college more adequately equipped for his career, or he leaves college with low self esteem thinking he's really dumb when he's not.
Communication and organisational psychology is hardly taught in schools, yet even as a programmer, I believe it is the single most important thing that needs to be taught. Even for professors and academics, communication is a problem, garnering support for global warming is frustrating for a lot of scientists, but they don't understand its because their ability to share their information to the rest of the world is lacking.
What defines my income is not my programming skill, it is my ability to carry myself, talk to other people, do good presentations, not say stupid things, etc. My skills as a programmer comes secondary to that. Communication is taught very little if at all in schools, yet if you look at all the successful people in the world, their primary asset is communication.
Look at Steve Jobs, he's a great presenter/communicator, Microsoft's success was initiated by Bill Gates ability to receive help from other people at his university and even convincing IBM to use the worst product on the market. Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook, pretty self explanatory there. Creator of Minecraft, wrote terrible code. There are plenty of genius code monkeys, taxi drivers, who can't land a job because they don't know how to talk to people.
Waitwaitwaitwhat. Hold on. Now I have to ask. Is it normal in the USA to get a degree in education and have your subject as some kind of secondary thing?
hmm really? some math education majors i know for high school have to take a 2nd semster of proof based linear algebra, its almost the same as a full blow math major.
Yeah. It was really sad to me because I wanted to be a teacher for a long time, but my eyes were opened to the fact that to be a physics teacher, my passion should be teaching, not physics.
Well I supose that for lower classes (like in Finland teachers from 1st to 6th grade) the teacher really need to be teachers, rather than experts in any certain subject. In here it works like that, and the same "class teacher" teaches majority of the subjects, except for specialized ones like music and languages. After sixth grade the teachers have actually studied the subjects themselves, and then taken a short course in teaching to become teachers. I also think that the ability to teach is also very important even up to high school and university.
One thing I really don't understand here is about how Americans in general think about education - it's all about what is needed and less so about just being educated. In Finland education itself has a value, so individual subjects and their relevance in every day life has less importance. So we study here stuff that might not be all that useful, like music and art - and high level maths. It has been shown to make you think better and has done pretty good for our international competitiveness. I mean even here at Aalto Uni where I study economics we have math that is totally unrelated to economics and other similar subjects. We're a triple accredited school and the entire uni's really high level, even though we don't make it high in the rankins because we have so homogenic student body (it's ridicolous they give you points if you have more ethnic diversity), and the uni doesn't publish many papers, although if they'd only take account the studies that have been published in high level scientific journals, we'd be pretty much very close to the top of the world.
One thing I really don't understand here is about how Americans in general think about education - it's all about what is needed and less so about just being educated.
I agree. Education has such a high value, and math is one of the most enlightening things to understand. I have never met anyone but my professors that values education as much as I do. Even the students that I have met that do well just want the grade, and would just straigh up pay for it if they could. I think it is very rare that education is truly valued in American schools, even in college, and the reason that American math scores continue to fall is because math isn't something you can bullshit even if you dont care.
Edit: And this thread has done nothing but confirm my fear. I suppose math is something that people don't really understand how great it is until they can do it already.
I think that having your mind expanded and opened to new ideas is a great thing for everyone. It forces you to apply yourself in a different way. It is challenging, it will frustrate you, but at the end of it you will be a better person for it. This is true of any class you take in your undergrad studies, especially before you declare a major.
Another problem is that there is little appreciation for math in this day and age. Who would think that math is the reason our entire world is how it is? Little things like your stove heating a pot of water to boil hotdogs, or your cell phone using imaginary numbers to transport your voice over long distances. Any example you can think of comes down to math at its core, and most people ignore that fact, and even less want to understand why. There is a reason there are so few engineers, mathematicians, and scientists coming out of the US today, and its simply because its taken for granted. I only reference the US because this article comes from the US, I am also from the US, and honestly this problem is only a widespread "epidemic" here.
The root of the problem is when we are young. Kids in the US need to learn how to solve a problem, not just memorize and repeat something only to forget it after the test in a few weeks. The school system would be greatly sped up if kids were taught true problem solving techniques, and then we would have fewer kids who are just "bad at math" (because they dont know where to repeat what they were told). Im not saying kids need to be an infinite source of knowledge, but they should know where to find that knowledge. I often reference my books when doing homework, infact it would be very hard for me to not do so and still solve the problem fully.
I'm an undergrad mechanical engineer in my 3rd year of studies and I can honestly say that the applied science classes I've taken like physics, thermodynamics, statics/dynamics, fluids, etc, all really taught me how to solve a problem. My best examples come from thermodynamics, where my teacher would literally give us a problem, and say go solve it. We had no book and limited lecture information (it always turned out to be enough but it never seemed like it was at the beginning). We could ask all the questions we wanted to. Once a person learns what questions to ask, they can truly start to learn about something. The students who learned this when they were younger excelled in the class, while everyone else struggled to make the grade for the first 2 exams. What was great was this method of asking questions could be applied to ourselves. I had no problem taking fluids because I knew the questions to ask myself and started looking for answers very early on. We can all ask the right questions, and we have the resources to go out and solve the problems on our own, its only a matter of learning how to do it early on.
I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
The way I see it, algebra isn't just needed for its technical value. I learned it in middle and high school, and it taught me discipline and honed my problem-solving skills. For example, I'm likely not going to use the knowledge I "gleaned" from my 10th grade English course books, but they did help me learn to think critically about whatever I'm reading. (...I think X-D)
It would be interesting to compare the maths curriculum of different countries as well as pass/fail rates. The article is interesting, but it's hard to know whether the low pass rate is a systemic failure or simply because algebra is too hard. A statistical comparison between countries would probably shed some light on that.
On July 30 2012 15:31 Swede wrote: It would be interesting to compare the maths curriculum of different countries as well as pass/fail rates. The article is interesting, but it's hard to know whether the low pass rate is a systemic failure or simply because algebra is too hard. A statistical comparison between countries would probably shed some light on that.
It's about income inequality, at least here in the US. Poor kids with bad home lives living in bad neighborhoods and go to bad poor schools do way worse on everything, and it seems like the US system fails because the US has super high income inequality compared to the first world. You have to look at social factors like this that are at the core. Like our ridiculous incarceration rate messing up home lives, etc..
I'm probably biased on this one since I love algebra and always have, but I think it is necessary for proper development of a child, at least at a high school level, which is pretty easy.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
90% of the shit I learn in high school I'll never use in the real world; that doesn't mean I should only go through 10% of school. High school is about learning how to balance your schedule more than actual subjects -- a lesson you will use every day of your life.
On July 30 2012 13:41 sluggaslamoo wrote: Logic is not maths. I'm terrible at maths and I understand programming a lot better than most people. While lambda calculus falls under maths, it is nothing like "maths", its pure logic. You do not need to be good at maths to be able to understand lambda calculus, and what becomes of it currying with functional programming. Same goes for algorithmic programming, and learning data structures, sorting algorithms, etc.
I've seen heaps of programmers who were pretty bad at highschool mathematics who became geniuses when they started learning sorting algorithms and lambda calculus.
Hmm, seems like you have an extremely narrow definition of math? Discrete math is still math. Yes, it isn't really taught in high schools, but that doesn't change the fact that all algorithms require both verification of correctness and time/space complexity analysis... which are both math.
Also,
Wikipedia wrote: Lambda calculus (also written as λ-calculus or called "the lambda calculus") is a formal system in mathematical logic for expressing computation by way of variable binding and substitution.
There's a good reason schools like MIT cross-list algorithms and logic in the math department.
I agree, know they fall under the same umbrella, but you are missing the point of my argument.
Hmm, well then, what's your argument?
On July 30 2012 12:15 sluggaslamoo wrote: The algebra needed for comp sci can be learned in just a week,
This is false; you need to know about things like exponential functions and polynomials and logarithms and their relative growth rates.
and you won't see it as "algebra" you will see as something far more interesting as that.
Algebra is a tool, much like arithmetic, which is necessary for understanding computer science. You don't study high-school algebra just to "do algebra" later. Indeed,
With comp sci you are also not really learning maths, you are learning about logic and patterns.
Algebra is among the first steps in gaining the mathematical (or more generally, intellectual) maturity to think abstractly---and abstract thought is essential in any sort of technical subject. There's "logic" and "patterns" to be learned in algebra as well.
The rest like lambda calculus and big O notation is stuff that you will never learn in school anyway. That's the problem.
Yes, most high schools don't teach it (which suggests that high schools ought to offer more math classes, though that's sort of unrelated to whether algebra should be mandatory or not.) But to learn lambda calculus or big-O notation requires algebraic abstraction.
Once you see the relevance the basic stuff that took you years to learn in school will take just a few days to learn. That's why there is no point.
Very true for anyone in a technical field, though perhaps not so much for those who are not so inclined. American schools spend far too much time on rote memorization of arithmetic and the like, while Eastern European/Asian schools introduce interesting problems (i.e. not just regurgitating formulae) early on.
On your friends who were "bad at math" yet brilliant programmers/computer scientists: high school geometry (a sad excuse for the word "geometry"), trigonometry (more memorization), and calculus (yet more memorization, though often at this level there may be glimpses of actual mathematics) are, indeed, not so relevant to discrete math and problem solving. But the solution here isn't to get rid of them or make them electives; it's to improve the teaching of these subjects so that it does actually teach problem solving.
Exponential functions and polynomials can be learned in just a few days, I don't see why it would take any longer than that. I learned polynomial functions when I was 12 years old in just a few days, and I learned how to do it by balancing experience point calculations in excel for a game I was making.
My point is that learning things before it has relevance is pointless. There is only point to learning something when there is relevance. It doesn't matter how good you are at teaching, if you can't see e.g algebra, having any benefit to your future career its gonna take months instead of days to learn, and your ability to recall it will diminish significantly within the next few weeks. That time could have been much more efficiently spent learning material relevant to your future career.
If I'm gonna become a panel beater when I grow up, it doesn't matter how good the teacher is, I'm not gonna give a shit about maths. It makes no sense to put future panel beaters with future maths professors in the same class. There's nothing wrong with education, if this panel beater ends up leaving school without knowledge of algebra, because regardless of whether algebra is taught or not, this person is going to leave school without knowledge of algebra. The only difference is that in one case, he can leave college more adequately equipped for his career, or he leaves college with low self esteem thinking he's really dumb when he's not.
Communication and organisational psychology is hardly taught in schools, yet even as a programmer, I believe it is the single most important thing that needs to be taught. Even for professors and academics, communication is a problem, garnering support for global warming is frustrating for a lot of scientists, but they don't understand its because their ability to share their information to the rest of the world is lacking.
What defines my income is not my programming skill, it is my ability to carry myself, talk to other people, do good presentations, not say stupid things, etc. My skills as a programmer comes secondary to that. Communication is taught very little if at all in schools, yet if you look at all the successful people in the world, their primary asset is communication.
Look at Steve Jobs, he's a great presenter/communicator, Microsoft's success was initiated by Bill Gates ability to receive help from other people at his university and even convincing IBM to use the worst product on the market. Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook, pretty self explanatory there. Creator of Minecraft, wrote terrible code. There are plenty of genius code monkeys, taxi drivers, who can't land a job because they don't know how to talk to people.
What you are saying here is that you believe your experience of learning to understand some polynomial functions by yourself at 12 over a few days is representative of the general ease with which students learn to manipulate all simple algebraic functions. You are mistaken. Also, if you gained an understanding of polynomials in general from playing around in excel you are deluding yourself by claiming to be bad at maths. Even if you only taught yourself how to solve or manipulate one or two types, doing it by yourself shows significant mathematical aptitude.
The majority of children take weeks of instruction to learn to manipulate each new function type well enough that they can integrate it into their existing knowledge. Even then they will only succeed if they adequately grasp certain key concepts - many of them explictily shared between CS and algebra - of abstraction.
I believe quite strongly that core academic subjects, especially languages and the hard sciences, should be set according to ability. Every class should cover at least the basics of the curriculum, but the more advanced classes should cover it more quickly and potentially include additional enrichment activities or be telescoped so students can finish the entire curriculum more rapidly or complete a curriculum which extends upon the core. It is pointless to have high-ability students sitting bored in a class where most students take a few days to puzzle out each core concept even though they seem self-evident to the high-ability student. But there needs to be a baseline of skill, and basic algebra should be included to allow students a reasonable minimum of mobility later in their education and careers.
Interpersonal skills should be built as well as technical ones not in replacement of. We need bright technical minds who know how to communicate, not people for whom communication is its own purpose.
Some of the core concepts are detailed in papers attempting to work out early indicators of success or failure amongst first -year CS students. I was a peer-tutor for maths in one HS, and have done a few bits and pieces since. The outliers in maths stand out more than in most subjects because there is little context needed so apt students can race ahead and some other students can get blocked at one topic (in history, knowledge of one empire is not necessary to learn about another). So you can have 16 year olds that understand the quadratic formula as well as they understand telekinesis, and 9 year olds who can get a handle on the generalised idea of orthogonality (orthogonality not restricted to spacial dimensions) in a couple of hours.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
High school economics requires next to no maths. I went through IGCSE/IB economics and most of that is teaching theory without the rigorous proofs and underpinnings. The maths and formalisations of generalisations can wait until university or later.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
High school economics requires next to no maths. I went through IGCSE/IB economics and most of that is teaching theory without the rigorous proofs and underpinnings. The maths and formalisations of generalisations can wait until university or later.
Economics without math, beyond the concepts of opportunity cost and discussion of the tragedy of the commons is pretty useless. There's no point to teaching the subject at a high school level, (which is my point entirely), because there is very little to be gained by it without a stronger background. It's like teaching astrophysics in high school or circuit analysis. You might learn just a little bit of the most basic concepts, but you can't actually apply any of it for the most part. Without actually understanding the reasons why things function the way they do (which requires a fundamental understanding of a rate of change for economics, along with reasonable algebra for interpreting even basic graphs), you might as well be memorizing formulas and only solving problems that fit the format you expect.
Principles matter in any subject (especially math based subjects like economics), and you can't learn principles without the proper foundations and understanding how a result is derived.
It's like how schools teach FOIL (they shouldn't, it's really stupid of them) rather than the distributive property of multiplication when they introduce students to binomials.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Oh and that's how I started in economics (a no calculus/little math other than graph interpretation), guess what? I loved it and got my degree in economics after that. Same thing with physics, started that in a no calculus, no advanced math high school course with lots of labs and discovery, loved it, same for the E&M course, I end up taking Physics C AP exam after starting like that.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
Just because you won't use it doesn't mean you should not learn it. There are some very basic things in life that everyone should know, and I think Algebra is one of them. It's not even that hard. Maybe it's because of where I was born, but elementary school kids can start learning Algebra, and people are arguing that it's too difficult for people that are trying to pass High School? Then they shouldn't pass. They don't meet the minimum requirements. Algebra is not necessary, but if people actually spent more time thinking about it, then they'll find it more often than they think.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get. Or this is your salary, how many people can it feed, how much does it cost to live in different places/situations, this is how to calculate taxes using a simple tax code, these are the sort of ways you can be exempt different kinds of taxes, etc..
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing.
The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills.
Thus, useless.
Cutting out fundamentally important mathematical learning simply because it might not be directly applicable in their lives is not helpful, it merely compounds the problem in the first place, by denying them even more opportunity to develop critical thinking skills and writing them off as students. I have a friend who struggled in high school, the school guidance counselor even told him to forget about college. His mother hired me to tutor him as a classmate after school for a year, and I showed him how to think about things completely differently. He just got accepted into business school at the University of Chicago, one of the (if not THE) top ranked business schools in the world, and sent me the nicest thank you letter I've ever received in my life. I shudder to think of what would have happened to him if he'd been dropped out of algebra 2 and told to take the remedial no-math-because-you-won't-need-it classes instead of sticking with it and getting extra help to see things from a different perspective.
So no, the solution isn't that these students should be written off and given easier courses in what they will need for their skilless career at McDonald's flipping burgers, it's teaching the students who are struggling in a different manner and getting the parents more involved.
People should learn a wide variety of things while in lower/upper school. to help them to find where they want to be, and give them some understanding of what's out there. You could look at any subject and call it useless in x/y/z. If tonnes of students can't learn it, that's an attitude problem. If anything, the rest of school should be made harder so they learn to put effort in right from the start. It's much harder to catch up once you fall behind.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing.
The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills.
Thus, useless.
Cutting out fundamentally important mathematical learning simply because it might not be directly applicable in their lives is not helpful, it merely compounds the problem in the first place, by denying them even more opportunity to develop critical thinking skills and writing them off as students. I have a friend who struggled in high school, the school guidance counselor even told him to forget about college. His mother hired me to tutor him as a classmate after school for a year, and I showed him how to think about things completely differently. He just got accepted into business school at the University of Chicago, one of the (if not THE) top ranked business schools in the world, and sent me the nicest thank you letter I've ever received in my life. I shudder to think of what would have happened to him if he'd been dropped out of algebra 2 and told to take the remedial no-math-because-you-won't-need-it classes instead of sticking with it and getting extra help to see things from a different perspective.
So no, the solution isn't that these students should be written off and given easier courses in what they will need for their skilless career at McDonald's flipping burgers, it's teaching the students who are struggling in a different manner and getting the parents more involved.
That is fine for individual cases and where parents are involved enough and have means enough to get private tutoring. But the article is talking about vast swaths of kids probably mostly from low income situations and poorer public schools, many bad family situations, etc.. I feel like it's how to get a little bit more for them (cause I really don't think it's nothing) even if it's not the ideal curriculum, rather than the nothing of struggling and just never really getting something like algebra.
And hey, if one of the things you do in basic finance class is learn about how education is an investment and makes you more money in the future, if any of that sticks, maybe some % of them are more likely to think tutoring is a good idea when their kids struggle in school (or even ask their own parents for it). I'm thinking of them as life skills like this that help their situations, or help them in bringing up next generations.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing.
The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills.
Thus, useless.
Cutting out fundamentally important mathematical learning simply because it might not be directly applicable in their lives is not helpful, it merely compounds the problem in the first place, by denying them even more opportunity to develop critical thinking skills and writing them off as students. I have a friend who struggled in high school, the school guidance counselor even told him to forget about college. His mother hired me to tutor him as a classmate after school for a year, and I showed him how to think about things completely differently. He just got accepted into business school at the University of Chicago, one of the (if not THE) top ranked business schools in the world, and sent me the nicest thank you letter I've ever received in my life. I shudder to think of what would have happened to him if he'd been dropped out of algebra 2 and told to take the remedial no-math-because-you-won't-need-it classes instead of sticking with it and getting extra help to see things from a different perspective.
So no, the solution isn't that these students should be written off and given easier courses in what they will need for their skilless career at McDonald's flipping burgers, it's teaching the students who are struggling in a different manner and getting the parents more involved.
That is fine for individual cases and where parents are involved enough and have means enough to get private tutoring. But the article is talking about vast swaths of kids probably mostly from low income situations and poorer public schools, many bad family situations, etc.. I feel like it's how to get a little bit more for them (cause I really don't think it's nothing) even if it's not the ideal curriculum, rather than the nothing of struggling and just never really getting something like algebra.
That's why I specifically said to examine teaching methodology for struggling students. You are attempting to treat a symptom of the problem with a solution that makes the problem itself worse. I'm suggesting to solve the problem itself. I never said it would be easy or simple, but few things truly worth doing are.
Telling students "you won't be successful, so here are some useful skills you'll need for your lousy career that requires no actual training" is beyond demoralizing: if they haven't already given up entirely, they most likely will at this point.
Here is what I gather from the article. "The American education system is a slowly sinking ship, those who try to polish the brass are fools. If destruction is inevitable I want to be its agent rather than its victim, let us remove all the brass".
Man alive, it makes no sense to me. Must be useless. I give up trying to understand. I guess I won't read any further.
<sarcasm off>
Simply because it is a barrier to some, algebra should be taught better in American schools. American schools need an overhaul and culture needs it too as our culture has anti-wisdom elements in it everywhere. Unfortunately those who want to overhaul it are often stopped by those who want to sell the very steel- and for scrap, if you get my drift.
I know I'm being really opinionated. I'm sorry. They're deep set opinions so don't let them sway you or argue against them. This is just my two random as a cow on a cotton house roof cents. Cause it's 2AM and I can't sleep for pain.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing.
The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills.
Thus, useless.
Cutting out fundamentally important mathematical learning simply because it might not be directly applicable in their lives is not helpful, it merely compounds the problem in the first place, by denying them even more opportunity to develop critical thinking skills and writing them off as students. I have a friend who struggled in high school, the school guidance counselor even told him to forget about college. His mother hired me to tutor him as a classmate after school for a year, and I showed him how to think about things completely differently. He just got accepted into business school at the University of Chicago, one of the (if not THE) top ranked business schools in the world, and sent me the nicest thank you letter I've ever received in my life. I shudder to think of what would have happened to him if he'd been dropped out of algebra 2 and told to take the remedial no-math-because-you-won't-need-it classes instead of sticking with it and getting extra help to see things from a different perspective.
So no, the solution isn't that these students should be written off and given easier courses in what they will need for their skilless career at McDonald's flipping burgers, it's teaching the students who are struggling in a different manner and getting the parents more involved.
Ahhh... Whitewing, can I say thanks for being a breath of fresh air to me in the wee hours of the morning? This is beautiful, beautiful!
I think it is worthwhile to discuss a different approach in terms of math and school. I was fairly good in math at school and by that decided to graduate in university as something invovled with maths, which ended up being business information systems. When i compare university algebra to schools algebra I would always choose the first. Not only because it is more complete, but also because it is way more understandable. In school they always left so many blank spaces because they feel they are too hard to teach or too much. But with those blank spaces I, for me, didn't really get what algebra was about in school.
edit: and what a lot of people here forget is that maths need a high level of abstraction-niveau. This isn't something a human being poses as a giving thing. It could be viewed as talent. And since im teaching some pupils in math (home lesson) who are not necessarly dumb, i know that it can be friggin hard to try to explain someone algebra.
On July 30 2012 15:31 Swede wrote: It would be interesting to compare the maths curriculum of different countries as well as pass/fail rates. The article is interesting, but it's hard to know whether the low pass rate is a systemic failure or simply because algebra is too hard. A statistical comparison between countries would probably shed some light on that.
It's about income inequality, at least here in the US. Poor kids with bad home lives living in bad neighborhoods and go to bad poor schools do way worse on everything, and it seems like the US system fails because the US has super high income inequality compared to the first world. You have to look at social factors like this that are at the core. Like our ridiculous incarceration rate messing up home lives, etc..
You might be right that income inequality contributes to the problem, but it's all just pointless speculation without some statistics in there. Hence my other post. It would be more more beneficial to investigate failing and succeeding systems from around the world and note the differences than make potentially misguided claims that algebra is unnecessary.
At first I thought this article was talking about Calculus. But then I reread it and saw "algebra".
I'll give that there are certain areas where merit does stem somewhat from natural talent. I could probably be good at art and sketching, but compared to someone who had talent as an artist I'd probably take twice as long to become half as good.
Algebra, is not one of these subjects. It has nothing to do with creativity or preferences. Algebra, when you break it down, is application of logic. And if you're struggling with algebra, or indeed any form of high-school maths, then you are simply not trying hard enough, because if you can wake up in the morning and put your socks on the right feet then you have the brain power necessary to understand algebra.
Most people have the ability to do algebra. They simply don't try, or they don't want to. That's not the same as not understanding it, and I think the article glosses over this fact somewhat.
As for whether it is truly necessary in real life. Well, that's another story.
I mean Calculus I can understand. But algebra? If we're going to come this far, then where does it stop? Are we going to question whether we need to learn multiplication in 5 years?
Basic education should be as broad as possible because a 12-16 year old kid DOES NOT KNOW what he/she wants to become later on (we would all be pilots/firefighters/superhero/othercoolstuff then...). So if the kid skips learning algebra at age 12 and later discovers, let's say, when he approaches 16-17, that he/she wants to become an engineer? What then? The kid is majorly fucked.
That's why it's necessary. That...and it's easy. We are not talking about high-level calculus and solving partial differential equations etc. ;-)
But many things aren't actually needed in real world situations 90% of people will frequent, History for example knowing the battle of hastings was 1066 won't help me when it comes to cleaning windows or having a paper round but I'm glad I know it. Same for Algebra being able to rearrange formulas and so on won't help me sweeping floors and so on, but I'm glad I know it, knowing Algebra also makes the transition into higher maths much easier in the event that I want to swap my career prospects
I think that Algebra is definitely something which should be learnt in school.
It's not that hard if you have a teacher who will teach the structure and is patient with people constantly asking questions. It's also applicable for having sound logical arguments too. Structurally, Logic is very VERY similar to algebra. It's a lot of balancing to make sure your argument is structurally sound. If it's not, then your being a fucking tool. Making sure your arguments balance out in English or any other area of discourse is essential in maintaining a good grasp of what your saying.
In university, I had an introduction to logic, which was basically Algebra, and I got my highest mark (shame it didnt count).
On July 30 2012 20:30 OptimusYale wrote: I think that Algebra is definitely something which should be learnt in school.
It's not that hard if you have a teacher who will teach the structure and is patient with people constantly asking questions. It's also applicable for having sound logical arguments too. Structurally, Logic is very VERY similar to algebra. It's a lot of balancing to make sure your argument is structurally sound. If it's not, then your being a fucking tool. Making sure your arguments balance out in English or any other area of discourse is essential in maintaining a good grasp of what your saying.
In university, I had an introduction to logic, which was basically Algebra, and I got my highest mark (shame it didnt count).
I tutored at a middle school for over 4 years and I can tell you the kids that had a hard time with Algebra (basically all of them) weren't struggling because of their teacher's flaws-- it was because they didn't give a shit, and who can blame them?
To make America's education work you're going to need to find a way to force kids to open wide and accept the shit being shoveled down their throats for 12 years of their life-- and I just don't think that's going to work.
Kids nowadays think for themselves. They all have phones and access to the internet. Parents aren't as strict as they used to be-- hell they go to jail if they leave a bruise on their child's ass.
I graduated high school with a 1.3 gpa. My quarterly grades were: D, F, C, F for every class, every quarter. I just found it pointless to learn useless things that I could learn on google in 10 seconds if I wanted to.
I mean I understand why an education system is in place. It's like throwing shit at a wall and hoping some sticks. The some shit that sticks to the wall are the students that go on to be engineers, scientists, programmers, and etc.
Do I find it unfair that everyone else has to suffer just so some people can go on to be on their knees for the rest of the world? You bet.
I also tutored in GED classes for sometime, and I can't even count the amount of nice people with normal jobs, making good money, that didn't even know their times tables. Hell, most of them stopped showing up. I guess they figured it was pretty pointless too.
Well from my experience if you're not learning algebra in high school...well there's not much else maths to do. All the basic maths was covered for us in primary school, and even then early refreshed in year 7. Algebra is not that difficult a concept, it's just some of the applications of algebra and memorising formulas and steps for working out that people struggle with.
Anyway, I'm behind the concept that every student is an individual and some just haven't got the discipline for mathematics. I like the above note that kid's "didn't give a shit" for maths. As a teacher at a private college I always try make the boring stuff relate to necessary elements, but it's definitely still a struggle to get some of my game designers to care about programming in C#. Others just take right to it. Such a difficult balance in just the few people I teach, I can't imagine the complexity of designing a curriculum for thousands of kids with such a pressure to ensure that they are measured to be intelligent along such strict guidelines and then trying to make kids relate to it.
A lot of our programmers learned calculus at some stage, but ask them how they can use it to make a game or program and they'd shrug at you. Specific example, but students don't come out of school with job titles like "generic worker a".
School isn't about learning actual content. It's about learning how to learn, how to think critically, and how to overcome intellectual challenges. It's a terrible idea to remove those challenges just because some people do, in fact, find them challenging.
On July 30 2012 21:13 bittman wrote: Well from my experience if you're not learning algebra in high school...well there's not much else maths to do. All the basic maths was covered for us in primary school, and even then early refreshed in year 7. Algebra is not that difficult a concept, it's just some of the applications of algebra and memorising formulas and steps for working out that people struggle with.
Anyway, I'm behind the concept that every student is an individual and some just haven't got the discipline for mathematics. I like the above note that kid's "didn't give a shit" for maths. As a teacher at a private college I always try make the boring stuff relate to necessary elements, but it's definitely still a struggle to get some of my game designers to care about programming in C#. Others just take right to it. Such a difficult balance in just the few people I teach, I can't imagine the complexity of designing a curriculum for thousands of kids with such a pressure to ensure that they are measured to be intelligent along such strict guidelines and then trying to make kids relate to it.
A lot of our programmers learned calculus at some stage, but ask them how they can use it to make a game or program and they'd shrug at you. Specific example, but students don't come out of school with job titles like "generic worker a".
C# is a horrible language. I guess they don't think about game physics.
If you truly want kids to be 'smarter' these days. Take away all of those Jersey Shore, American Idol, LMFAO, Justin Bieber, and most importantly Cellular Mobiles. They are detrimental to the intellectual mind of the adolescent.
"...although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status."
I am a medical student, and I would like to disagree with the statement that algebra is not used. The fact that we do not pull out a TI-83 and graph f(x) does not mean math was not vital to a diagnosis. The reason we are expected to know what is superficially "useless" knowledge is that the equipment being used and the conclusions we draw from them are predicated on these mathematical equations and physics concepts. It is bad science to blindly agree with the results when one doesnt know how the machine got there (technically, the people who designed the machine to deliver answers). When one uses an instrument, I would hope one has a good idea of how it works. I wouldnt want an anesthesiologist who doesnt know what the functions mean on my gas exchange.
We use calculators after we have learned how to do the math ourselves, not before. The calculator becomes a luxury, not a necessity. Which is what it would become if we choose to ignore the basics before relegating it to a tool.
The answer to failure in American schools is not to relinquish classes that prove difficult. I am not saying that I have the answer to the education system, but I would wager that making mathematics optional will do more harm than good for students.
On July 30 2012 22:19 TheFlash wrote: "...although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status."
I am a medical student, and I would like to disagree with the statement that algebra is not used. The fact that we do not pull out a TI-83 and graph f(x) does not mean math was not vital to a diagnosis. The reason we are expected to know what is superficially "useless" knowledge is that the equipment being used and the conclusions we draw from them are predicated on these mathematical equations and physics concepts. It is bad science to blindly agree with the results when one doesnt know how the machine got there (technically, the people who designed the machine to deliver answers). When one uses an instrument, I would hope one has a good idea of how it works. I wouldnt want an anesthesiologist who doesnt know what the functions mean on my gas exchange.
We use calculators after we have learned how to do the math ourselves, not before. The calculator becomes a luxury, not a necessity. Which is what it would become if we choose to ignore the basics before relegating it to a tool.
The answer to failure in American schools is not to relinquish classes that prove difficult. I am not saying that I have the answer to the education system, but I would wager that making mathematics optional will do more harm than good for students.
The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
On July 30 2012 22:23 Papulatus wrote: The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
You really can't do any math beyond an elementary school level without having basic algebraic skills, so by removing algebra, you really do get rid of math as a subject.
This article bothers me for so many reasons. Most subjects in school are useless when it comes to day to day life, but that doesn't mean we should cut them out because some students have problems. I took years of Spanish, and I only use it because I make a point to use it. I could easily get through my life without knowing it at all. It really comes down to the notion that math is some sort of beast that requires innate talent. Many people say things like "oh I'm just not a math person" and that seems to make total sense to everyone. If I said "oh I'm just not a reading person" I would be considered an idiot. As for the defense of algebra: this is probably the easiest and most useful of math subjects. Any minor calculation you have to make during your day requires it. How much money should I save to afford this car? What will my paycheck be if I take off 3 days? How many miles is this road trip if I don't go through Chicago? These all require basic algebraic skills.
On July 30 2012 22:19 TheFlash wrote: "...although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status."
I am a medical student, and I would like to disagree with the statement that algebra is not used. The fact that we do not pull out a TI-83 and graph f(x) does not mean math was not vital to a diagnosis. The reason we are expected to know what is superficially "useless" knowledge is that the equipment being used and the conclusions we draw from them are predicated on these mathematical equations and physics concepts. It is bad science to blindly agree with the results when one doesnt know how the machine got there (technically, the people who designed the machine to deliver answers). When one uses an instrument, I would hope one has a good idea of how it works. I wouldnt want an anesthesiologist who doesnt know what the functions mean on my gas exchange.
We use calculators after we have learned how to do the math ourselves, not before. The calculator becomes a luxury, not a necessity. Which is what it would become if we choose to ignore the basics before relegating it to a tool.
The answer to failure in American schools is not to relinquish classes that prove difficult. I am not saying that I have the answer to the education system, but I would wager that making mathematics optional will do more harm than good for students.
On July 30 2012 22:23 Papulatus wrote: The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
You really can't do any math beyond an elementary school level without having basic algebraic skills, so by removing algebra, you really do get rid of math as a subject.
This article bothers me for so many reasons. Most subjects in school are useless when it comes to day to day life, but that doesn't mean we should cut them out because some students have problems. I took years of Spanish, and I only use it because I make a point to use it. I could easily get through my life without knowing it at all. It really comes down to the notion that math is some sort of beast that requires innate talent. Many people say things like "oh I'm just not a math person" and that seems to make total sense to everyone. If I said "oh I'm just not a reading person" I would be considered an idiot. As for the defense of algebra: this is probably the easiest and most useful of math subjects. Any minor calculation you have to make during your day requires it. How much money should I save to afford this car? What will my paycheck be if I take off 3 days? How many miles is this road trip if I don't go through Chicago? These all require basic algebraic skills.
Rant over.
Yes, if you stop learning algebra you have no hope of progressing onto further math.
But further math is even more abstract and useless unless you plan to work in math, science, or engineering (or possibly some particular business fields).
None of those examples you've given is algebra, it's basic grade 5 arithmetics, which everyone learns.
The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
I know that he is not saying that math should be removed as a whole. However, by making it optional, many students will avoid a difficult subject for no other reason than making it easier on themselves. (I probably would have, knowing how I was in grade school) This can cause an effects such as the exclusion of students who may have succeeded as mathematicians but feared getting an B on their report card.
So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Not really a good article. I agree that mathematics could be taught in a different way but this is already a ongoing movement. From what i've seen and heard there is less pure algebra these days but more mathematical problems given in a more practical form, like short story questions. Math and algebra itself in this manner is extremely crucial and learns students analytical methods which are crucial in any field. Also in any field at an academic level some math understanding is required just because a certain grasp on how to proof things and what counts as sufficient evidence for a thesis needs some math understanding. If you do a thesis on some language subject it's still important to have a feeling for how to sample your interview subjects etc. etc.
The major flaw of this article is that it implies that dropouts are bad. They are not. Weeding out bad students early on is crucial and math just happens to be a good indicator for that. Don't quote me on this but I think there are two reasons for math being the hurdle for many people: - it's the easiest subject to test effectively because no subject is as black and white as math. The test scores are probably most reliable for measuring the actual skill compared to other high school subjects which are far more subjective. - math scores probably have the highest correlation with overall scores (GPA or whatever). A good score on math is more indicative for a high GPA then any other subject i assume. Excelling in a course like french of chemistry has less indication of you having success at your academic endeavours than math does.
I'm not all too familiar with how math is given in the US but I can imagine it could use some more changes in methods especially given that US students rank a bit low on their math skills.
On July 30 2012 22:23 Papulatus wrote: The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
You really can't do any math beyond an elementary school level without having basic algebraic skills, so by removing algebra, you really do get rid of math as a subject.
This article bothers me for so many reasons. Most subjects in school are useless when it comes to day to day life, but that doesn't mean we should cut them out because some students have problems. I took years of Spanish, and I only use it because I make a point to use it. I could easily get through my life without knowing it at all. It really comes down to the notion that math is some sort of beast that requires innate talent. Many people say things like "oh I'm just not a math person" and that seems to make total sense to everyone. If I said "oh I'm just not a reading person" I would be considered an idiot. As for the defense of algebra: this is probably the easiest and most useful of math subjects. Any minor calculation you have to make during your day requires it. How much money should I save to afford this car? What will my paycheck be if I take off 3 days? How many miles is this road trip if I don't go through Chicago? These all require basic algebraic skills.
Rant over.
Yes, if you stop learning algebra you have no hope of progressing onto further math.
But further math is even more abstract and useless unless you plan to work in math, science, or engineering (or possibly some particular business fields).
None of those examples you've given is algebra, it's basic grade 5 arithmetics, which everyone learns.
Probably not the best example, but I use algebra every time I need to check my grades in terms of what I'll need to get for an A, what I'll need to get a particular grade to get a particular GPA (not so important in college), etc. I'm assuming these tasks use algebra because they involve a variable or two--I honestly don't recall what I learned in algebra that well, but I know it has been built into me in a way. Of course, you can do this without algebra, but it's just much easier to think in terms of an algebra when a particular problem arises (this usually involves some financial stuff for me). And I feel that learning to think in a different paradigm to solve real life problems only helps you to learn other paradigms easier. I see algebra more of a means than an end.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
A good background in maths helps to reduce the possibility of a systematic error occurring. This is mostly to make sure that there aren't any serious errors in calculation.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
No, they expect you to be able to do it on your own because you have to interchange a bunch of different equipment manually and some have different features. Plus, you have to adjust flow rate on the fly, so you cant realistically have a tool figuring out the duration because the flow rate changes so much throughout a procedure.
Also, there is the importance of speed. There is a new calculus-based overdose evaluation that requires physicians to do calculus to determine whether an overdose patient needs to be placed on liver transplant list asap, which is the difference between survival and death.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
Algebra is simply put, easy. If that's the cause of so many drop-outs then the US needs to rework parenting as well as the educational programs. Subjects don't only exist to benefit you with knowledge, but they also show future employers that you have the ability to learn and grasp new concepts. Not only that, but finishing school (and placing well) shows you can finish what you started. Employers are looking for people who are interested in sticking around for the long haul and can handle change. If simple math throws you off balance, then you are probably not someone who can make it in the working world.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
The article mentions parametric equations, which is more advance than the simple calculations that these examples involve, and is on par with first order ODEs, which is about as advance as the medical examples given gets.
Excerpt from an article published from the University of Utah:
The new method uses eight main “differential equations” – basic calculus equations that describe how changes in one variable affects changes in another variable over time. The equations simulate or “model,” step-by-step, how acetaminophen is metabolized in the liver, including production of NAPQI, a liver-destroying substance.
That makes it the first known “dynamical” model based on real biology – a contrast to the existing “statistical” method for determining how overdose patients fare.
The statistical method – known as the King’s College Criteria (KCC) – estimates who is likely to survive or die from acetaminophen toxicity using correlations between INR and creatinine lab tests and which patients actually did live or die in the past. The King’s College Criteria predict liver failure if INR exceeds 6.4, creatinine exceeds 3.4 and there is confusion, altered consciousness or coma due to liver damage.
The problem, says Adler, is the criteria “look at the statistical relationship between lab test results and patient outcome without understanding what’s happening inside the liver. It’s just statistics.”
The new method “tracks how the liver’s health changes over time,” he says.
The new equations use patients’ measured levels of AST, ALT and INR to estimate when they consumed acetaminophen and how much they took. By also considering creatinine levels, the new method accurately predicts which Tylenol overdose patients will survive with treatment and which will require a liver transplant to avoid death.
The new method uses eight main “differential equations” – basic calculus equations that describe how changes in one variable affects changes in another variable over time. The equations simulate or “model,” step-by-step, how acetaminophen is metabolized in the liver, including production of NAPQI, a liver-destroying substance.
That makes it the first known “dynamical” model based on real biology – a contrast to the existing “statistical” method for determining how overdose patients fare.
The statistical method – known as the King’s College Criteria (KCC) – estimates who is likely to survive or die from acetaminophen toxicity using correlations between INR and creatinine lab tests and which patients actually did live or die in the past. The King’s College Criteria predict liver failure if INR exceeds 6.4, creatinine exceeds 3.4 and there is confusion, altered consciousness or coma due to liver damage.
The problem, says Adler, is the criteria “look at the statistical relationship between lab test results and patient outcome without understanding what’s happening inside the liver. It’s just statistics.”
The new method “tracks how the liver’s health changes over time,” he says.
The new equations use patients’ measured levels of AST, ALT and INR to estimate when they consumed acetaminophen and how much they took. By also considering creatinine levels, the new method accurately predicts which Tylenol overdose patients will survive with treatment and which will require a liver transplant to avoid death.
Interesting. But doctors aren't researchers. I don't dispute that medical research requires a lot of math.
When I was referring to first order ODEs, I was refering to this example "-deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate".
It is not a question of will you use it. It is a question of are you able to understand it. Teaching it teaches basic logic and those that fail it either have some brain disability that should get diagnosed and treated, or are just plain lazy or stubborn and are refusing to even try to understand it. Grow a brain, pass highschool, and then forget all about it if you want to. At least you would have shown that your brain is functional.
Sure algebra above the very fundamentals is almost never used by 95% of all people, but everyone should know the basics, like "you can't solve an equation with two variables, like: x*y=100 or x*5*12=y*4*10", or simple stuff, like "if my steps are 90cm long, and I took 10 000 steps, how far did I travel? Well, 10 000*0.9=x (in meters)", and those things are necessary. But beyond that, to know how to derivate, that i equals the square root of (-1) and what cos ß means, is just overkill for someone who plays SC2, paints houses or works in a store.
To be honest, I think the real problem is the teachers. Before college, I really went to school because I had to. I'm sure many can relate. Because there's a lack of internal motivation, the most they're going to get out of school is whatever's put in front of them, the teachers.
I remember I didn't have to take algebra in high school because my junior high did a pretty good job to prepare us for high school. Then I remember when I was grading papers for an algebra teacher as an assistant while she was teaching, and I was so glad that I didn't have to go through her teaching method. She was emphasizing the wrong concepts at the wrong time, and I could tell she hated her job. And of course, the papers I was grading reflected that. I think she was the main algebra teacher at the time also. Having said that, my high school is one of the top 100 high schools in America. Just thinking about the rest of the schools in America kind of scares me.
On July 30 2012 23:15 TheFlash wrote: Excerpt from an article published from the University of Utah:
The new method uses eight main “differential equations” – basic calculus equations that describe how changes in one variable affects changes in another variable over time. The equations simulate or “model,” step-by-step, how acetaminophen is metabolized in the liver, including production of NAPQI, a liver-destroying substance.
That makes it the first known “dynamical” model based on real biology – a contrast to the existing “statistical” method for determining how overdose patients fare.
The statistical method – known as the King’s College Criteria (KCC) – estimates who is likely to survive or die from acetaminophen toxicity using correlations between INR and creatinine lab tests and which patients actually did live or die in the past. The King’s College Criteria predict liver failure if INR exceeds 6.4, creatinine exceeds 3.4 and there is confusion, altered consciousness or coma due to liver damage.
The problem, says Adler, is the criteria “look at the statistical relationship between lab test results and patient outcome without understanding what’s happening inside the liver. It’s just statistics.”
The new method “tracks how the liver’s health changes over time,” he says.
The new equations use patients’ measured levels of AST, ALT and INR to estimate when they consumed acetaminophen and how much they took. By also considering creatinine levels, the new method accurately predicts which Tylenol overdose patients will survive with treatment and which will require a liver transplant to avoid death.
Interesting. But doctors aren't researchers. I don't dispute that medical research requires a lot of math.
When I was referring to first order ODEs, I was refering to this example "-deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate".
To be a doctor, you need a level of knowledge in the medical field that definitely requires such basic math.
Unless of course, you are happy with doctors not actually understanding anything about medicine but knows how to read the instruction manuals on the machines.
I use algebra all the time in my job and it is very required.
If we let kids skip algebra at age 12 or whenever they take it these days, then we are effectively letting them close a lot of doors at a very young age. Should 12 year olds be making those kinds of decisions?
A second question is should more students just be in vocational programs. We would probably have a more prepared workforce if we did allow students to just decide to get vocational training starting somewhere between 12-15, but that also closes a lot of doors at a young age.
I don't think the journalist is suggesting to completely removing math or algebra from the education system in US. And just as an example, I live in Canada and grade 12 math isn't even a requirement to graduate. However, grade 12 math is a requirement to get into sciences, math, engineering, economics, and business majors but otherwise not considered in admission in universities.
Like the journalists has suggested, there are a lot of evident benefits for students and parents. Some parents spend thousands of dollars getting tutors or sending their kids to after school academies just so their kids can pass math. I don't think any of those parents are hoping their kids to be mathematicians, engineers or economists. Let's be honest, there are a lot of kids who just simply can't do algebra and I'm sure most of them know that themselves. And for the most part, these kids become manual labour workers which is still an essential part of our economy.
However, I don't believe comments like
“to expect all students to master algebra will cause more students to drop out.” For those who stay in school, there are often “exit exams,” almost all of which contain an algebra component. In Oklahoma, 33 percent failed to pass last year, as did 35 percent in West Virginia."
implies that algebra is too hard or students can't learn algebra and therefore algebra should not be an requirement from graduation. I think this is more of a reflection that education in North America (Yes, Canada included) has been too slack on the kids in elementary schools and simply lack the fundamentals in mathematical analysis.
On July 30 2012 20:19 evanthebouncy! wrote: yeah I mean... I can vouch for optional learning in Algebra only if I can attain optional learning of Literature.
Do I quote shake-a-spear? Do I care if some essay was written cleverly to "prove" a point supposedly another writer wrote? No.
So... to make it even, make high level literature beyond grammar and 3 paragraph essay optional. Then I can take algebra as optional.
And thus, a new age of knowledge begins. Oh, wait... while we're at it, can we cut art, music, religion, history, physics and chemistry, too please? Most students won't need all that stuff in their real life.
On July 30 2012 15:33 swiftazn wrote: Speaking of Neil Degrasse Tyson:
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
I fail to see how removing algebra would solve anything. You would go from some people not learning algebra to nobody learning algebra.
As long as western culture propagates this idea that failure in the classroom is never the child's fault, we will keep getting completely retarded suggestions like cutting algebra out of schools. ITS FUCKING ALGEBRA, NOT MULTIV CALC >.>
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Where's the selection, if you don't teach algebra anymore? Algebra is not required in the corrupt world of business, media and politics. They don't apply it, because they are sloppy. Being sloppy, but making many contacts is the concept to win in western democracies.
On July 30 2012 23:51 meadbert wrote: I use algebra all the time in my job and it is very required.
If we let kids skip algebra at age 12 or whenever they take it these days, then we are effectively letting them close a lot of doors at a very young age. Should 12 year olds be making those kinds of decisions?
A second question is should more students just be in vocational programs. We would probably have a more prepared workforce if we did allow students to just decide to get vocational training starting somewhere between 12-15, but that also closes a lot of doors at a young age.
That points to the main problem with today's attitudes. It is assumed that if you're bad at something at age 12 you will be bad at it your whole life. Motivation is a huge part of learning. If a kid decides they want to be an engineer at 16 they should get the opportunity to "make up" for the amount of math they missed out before.
Instead the most likely reaction will be: "LOL you're bad at math, forget about it."
Realistically, high-school math isn't that hard when you get good instruction and you're extrememly motivated. If the base workload is kept in check (and that's a big if), there's no reason why a 16 year old can't make up for 5 or 6 years of missed knowledge in 2 years.
I think we should let kids learn what they _want_ to learn, for at least 50% of the school time. At some point they'll bump into something that takes algebra to understand, at which point they will learn it.
How I see it is that our education is decreasing, then we blame something other than the students, and reduce the challenges that they go through. Then the students don't have challenges and don't try in school then they get worse grades, then we reduce the challenges that they go through because it's clearly not their fault, then they don't think school is important so then they don't try and then get worse grades, which then makes us think that the education system is too tough, so then we bring down the challenges, but then the students don't have to apply themselves and then get bored and when they get bored they get bad grades, so then they get dumber and we think it's not their fault so then we reduce the challenges that they go through.
It took millions of years for humans to develop intelligence beyond any other species, but at this rate we are going to lose it faster than we gained it.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computer use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variable, it would probably take a week.
Trying solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Of course those things are done on a computer but think of simpler things like the previously mentioned dosage calculation. Note: I'm not in the medical field and i never watched Dr. House, so my examples might not be the best.
The patient has an ABC value of X, i know it takes amount Y to normalize it from value Z, how many milligram should he get to normalize the value so he doesn't die?
Another example: The surgery will take X minutes and the patient weights about Y kg. Administering anesthesia for that duration requires a dosage of Z. After ~75% of the time you notice that the anesthesia wears off early, how much do you have to add?
You can't go to a PC to do that since that would violate about 20 hygene rules, you have to do that in your head. You need to have a good grasp of math to be able to approximate the values correctly on-the-fly.
Noone says you have to do statistics or simulations in your head or by hand but there are lots of situations where you can't use a PC or even a calculator.
Remember, stuff done on computers was intially programmed by someone who actually knew how to do math. Plus computers are not always available even in this day and age. And even if they are, in some situations are much slower than what the human brain can calculate using symmetries.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computer use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variable, it would probably take a week.
Trying solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Of course those things are done on a computer but think of simpler things like the previously mentioned dosage calculation. Note: I'm not in the medical field and i never watched Dr. House, so my examples might not be the best.
The patient has an ABC value of X, i know it takes amount Y to normalize it from value Z, how many milligram should he get to normalize the value so he doesn't die?
Another example: The surgery will take X minutes and the patient weights about Y kg. Administering anesthesia for that duration requires a dosage of Z. After ~75% of the time you notice that the anesthesia wears off early, how much do you have to add?
You can't go to a PC to do that since that would violate about 20 hygene rules, you have to do that in your head. You need to have a good grasp of math to be able to approximate the values correctly on-the-fly.
Noone says you have to do statistics or simulations in your head or by hand but there are lots of situations where you can't use a PC or even a calculator.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing.
The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills.
Thus, useless.
So should we not bother vulgarizing science because 90% of people don't get the principles thus this is useless? Too much STEM elitism here.
The fact is algebra up to linear equations is fundamental for everyone, but that is middle school, not high school (I hope; not too familiar with US school system). However polynomial and non linear functions, trigonometry and other high school algebra is useless for a large number of professions: Everything around non technical communication-media-advertisement-journalism, humanities, law, lower office jobs etc... There could definitely be improvement in the way algebra is taught, but I don't think it should be a requirement in these fields if this lead to such dropout rates. If individuals really need this math they can do it at a slower pace or later on in life. Yes algebra is good for the brain, citizen development etc.. but let's be realist here. Its not the only thing, and many people truly fear and hate it. In lower office jobs, even if there seem to be an algebra component, there will be a software where you just repeatedly enter numbers you were told to enter. Employers typically don't care if you understand the principles or not.
On July 30 2012 23:49 Crownlol wrote: Ok, remove algebra since it's almost never used in the workplace. But replace it with something more relevant, like C.
And how do you expect someone to learn C (or any programming language) without understanding of basic abstractions like variables and functions?
On July 30 2012 22:45 Markwerf wrote: The major flaw of this article is that it implies that dropouts are bad. They are not. Weeding out bad students early on is crucial and math just happens to be a good indicator for that.
I think in the US, dropouts are generally viewed as bad because (a) they increase crime rates, (b) the US wants a high graduation rate to boast about.
If you can't learn how to find x given that x + 2 = 5, or do similiar operations with multiplication and division, you are a moron. I can understand Arts kids bitching about Calculus II and up because it's tricky if you don't have the mindset for it, but Algebra? Seriously.
For preparing college/university education that has anything remotely close to rational thinking. I'm a university engineering student and always bitch about 'what's the point of learning all this bullshit?' (I was complaining about linear algebra, aka vector spaces, diagonalization and that abstract stuff)
Really it's not practical at all. But my prof explained to me (after directly asking him why are we learning half the shit we learn), he said it opens the mind and trains it to think rationally.
For algebra, what you are really doing is looking at the bare-bone of a problem with all the extra useless crap stripped away. And then you realize you can re-arrange the situation in anyway you want as long as you follow a set of rules, and the result will be the same. This kind of process of problem solving directly applies to real life. It's not the actual numbers and calculation itself. It's simply thinking of alternatives, looking past the useless extra things, while confined within rules.
It's like abiding by federal/municipal laws. You learn to follow them but not be confined into a single thoughtless step-by-step method someone else told you to do. It's almost subconscious learning. The plain math itself is rarely applicable, but what it trains your brain to do is something really valuable.
============ While it's seemingly shallow/stupid, people in reality will lower their respect towards you if you don't know your algebra.
On July 30 2012 15:30 ZapRoffo wrote: I've been tutoring middle, high school and lower college math for about 8+ years now, seen tons of students from many different schools, and I've had the same thought as the article to an extent for a little while now. Here's the deal: a good part of algebra (mainly algebra 2), most of geometry, all of pre-calculus/trig and calculus+ math is super-specific and not relevant to the lives of at least 75% of the population's lives. The kids ask me, why do I need to learn this, and I don't have a good answer for them other than to show that you can because people care about it. Geometry (other than an application of logic and just introducing trig functions and right triangles and planes and lines and stuff) is especially useless even as a prerequisite for later math and hard to motivate kids for, yet everyone has to take it.
Ideally, if I were education dictator, here's what my proposition would be. It has one major hairy point I'll point out. For kids who are on track for average to above average non-art university, it's basically the same math system as it is now because that's not really where the problem is. For everyone else though, the non-college bound in particular (which is a lot), most of algebra and on is really pointless and it hangs them up as the article talks about. There are some things in algebra that are basic reasoning skills everyone should learn, like solving for unknowns in simple situations and speed/distance/time problems for example. But beyond that these students would be so much better served if instead of doing: most of algebra, geometry, algebra 2,
they did: basic logic personal finance/very basic economics, basic statistics and probability instead. basic mechanical physics
It would be so much easier for them to see how this stuff relates to their lives and for teachers to tie lessons into the kids' experiences than with what they are learning in what high school math is mostly about now. And most of the higher achieving kids end up taking these as more advanced electives at some point and are much more likely to learn things like good finance habits in their home lives.
The hairy issue is you have to place the kids rather early in one of the paths, but I think for the kids who really struggle with things like pre-algebra or algebra it's really a no-brainer that they shouldn't be beating their heads against the wall trying to push through it.
I don't know how you'd teach even very basic economics without introductory calculus, you need to know how derivatives work in order to do anything on the margin, and good luck doing PPF's without it. You can't do any useful statistics or probability without better than basic algebra skills (anyone struggling with algebra 2 will have trouble), and you can't really learn any useful physics without more than algebra 1 level math.
I took AP economics in high school that had 0 calculus required, you never learn margins are derivatives in it, you just do all discrete examples, you don't need any complicated math for it, and I mean very basic economics any way (well below , and more focused on household/job finance and practical things. Very basic statistics and probability, the kind that is useful for everyday life (chances of things happening/not happening, expected value, etc.), not the kind that is useful for deciding whether an experiment result is significant (you can go over bell curves in general and some milestones on it, and say you have to fall this far from the center to be pretty sure of yourself, that's the kind of depth I'm talking).
Kids who are failing algebra in high school are so far below needing to do what you call "useful statistics"--that stuff is not useful to them. There's a big bias here because this forum is way higher income and educated (or potentially education for the young folk) than the people the article is talking about.
Economics based entirely on discrete examples is essentially useless, real life examples generally don't look like that. It's simply not useful. Certain core concepts like the Tragedy of the Commons problem and Opportunity Cost can be useful, but without the proper background, truly understanding these basic things is difficult, and mastering them is impossible. (Good luck properly explaining other important core concepts like dominant strategy and the prisoner's dilemma, and then providing real life examples that actually exist and having them solve it without mathematics). You're going to teach finance (even basic finance) to students struggling with algebra? Really? These are students who have difficulty calculating compound interest. And you don't have to teach econometrics or advanced stats and probability, but I doubt students struggling with algebra are going to get much out of teaching formulas (because you can't do more than that without a stronger background) for basic probability problems. It's useless, and serves no purpose.
The issue is one of simple problem solving skills: students who struggle with algebra 1 etc. simply haven't developed them, and they need to. Providing easier classes for them to teach basic skills in these subjects will not help, because of the fundamental lack of problem solving skills. As Neil Degrasse Tyson more or less said in the video, studying math and science wires your brain to solve problems and to reason.
Even if the student masters the formulas in the classroom setting, the student is unlikely to be able to utilize the skills in that class in real life due to a lack of problem solving skills.
Giving them an easy way out, so that they don't have to learn how to think isn't helping them, and it isn't helping society (since you took economics, you should know what a social good is, and education is one). Taking some different routes and methods to help them learn how to be a problem solver is what would help them, they never developed the skills necessary to think logically, which is the problem. Solve that, and algebra becomes very easy, and the entire issue is moot.
You aren't understanding how basic I mean. It's very easy to give examples related to real life that highlight the tragedy of the commons or prisoner's dilemma without going into theory at all, and have it be interactive. If that goes well you can do the simplest math form of a problem. Like finance, just understanding that interest exists and the idea of having money in the bank or invested vs. spending it or holding it as cash, and doing simple interest, that's the sort of thing that would be appropriate and which many of the kids from less strong home situations might not get.
On July 30 2012 16:38 dogabutila wrote: You use algebra working at a gdamn grocery store. I know, I work at one. It's depressing how many times a cashier or even a customer can't do the math right and I end up having to embarrass somebody. Algebra isn't precalc or anything.
That's the sort of basic reasoning that I do think is essential in algebra. But then factoring, or finding roots of higher degree polynomials, or simplifying rational and radical expressions, that's the sort of thing that is so removed from life it's just an exercise in weird symbols and rules to them.
My argument isn't that teaching those very basic concepts without math at an absurdly simplistic level is impossible, my argument is that it's pointless and useless to do so, because they won't be able to properly apply what little they do learn outside of the classroom. Instead, focus on developing their critical thinking skills and getting them to learn how to solve problems and think logically and in abstract terms as well, then everything else becomes much simpler, and they'll be far more successful.
We have different views on how valuable conceptual understanding is. That's one of the main things I learned in economics major. Guess what? Almost all the main economics major courses are useless as far as actually applying anything specific to the world. There are no scenarios you can calculate like a simple monopoly or perfect competition graph, and macro is just nuts how many confounding variables there are, good luck with that, predicting anything with macroeconomic models you learn in school is laughable. It still develops critical thinking skills when you learn about principles.
Deciding how many people I can feed on this salary and where I can live: that's practicing a critical thinking skill same as finding polynomial roots. It's just one is more abstract, and some people are never going to, nor need to grasp things in that abstraction.
I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing.
The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills.
Thus, useless.
Cutting out fundamentally important mathematical learning simply because it might not be directly applicable in their lives is not helpful, it merely compounds the problem in the first place, by denying them even more opportunity to develop critical thinking skills and writing them off as students. I have a friend who struggled in high school, the school guidance counselor even told him to forget about college. His mother hired me to tutor him as a classmate after school for a year, and I showed him how to think about things completely differently. He just got accepted into business school at the University of Chicago, one of the (if not THE) top ranked business schools in the world, and sent me the nicest thank you letter I've ever received in my life. I shudder to think of what would have happened to him if he'd been dropped out of algebra 2 and told to take the remedial no-math-because-you-won't-need-it classes instead of sticking with it and getting extra help to see things from a different perspective.
So no, the solution isn't that these students should be written off and given easier courses in what they will need for their skilless career at McDonald's flipping burgers, it's teaching the students who are struggling in a different manner and getting the parents more involved.
Ahhh... Whitewing, can I say thanks for being a breath of fresh air to me in the wee hours of the morning? This is beautiful, beautiful!
On July 31 2012 00:10 Gogleion wrote: This makes no sense to get rid of algebra.
How I see it is that our education is decreasing, then we blame something other than the students, and reduce the challenges that they go through. Then the students don't have challenges and don't try in school then they get worse grades, then we reduce the challenges that they go through because it's clearly not their fault, then they don't think school is important so then they don't try and then get worse grades, which then makes us think that the education system is too tough, so then we bring down the challenges, but then the students don't have to apply themselves and then get bored and when they get bored they get bad grades, so then they get dumber and we think it's not their fault so then we reduce the challenges that they go through.
It took millions of years for humans to develop intelligence beyond any other species, but at this rate we are going to lose it faster than we gained it.
In general regression is much more rapid and sudden than progression. So the question is "can we turn this around?" or should we just give up and not teach our children basic math skills? With creationism, increasing disrespect to our teachers, and the rhetoric of anti intellectualism rife in our politics, it's clear that we are in danger of rapid regression.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
To be able to read the result u get from the computer u need to know HOW the process works and that u would be able to do that, at least to avoid errors(maybe a error in the input, which gives a huge error on the result, can be tracked really easily if u have an idea of what u expect). Doing regression model btw is just some matrix calculation... the only thing the computer do is just do a massive amount of SIMPLE calculation. Still if u don't know what the computer do u're gonna have huge problems when "shit happens"(and in real life seems to happen a lot)
Well I was one of those kids that always asked "why do I need this?" I wasn't going to be a scientist or a mathematician. I went through life thinking what a worthless thing to teach unless the person learning it is super smart. Well now I wish I hadn't. I wish I had more direction, more inspiration instead of a teacher telling me "well I guess you don't really need it." I'm 31 and I'm back in school taking math classes (algebra being one of them) and while I'm proud that I'm taking on the challenge and I have no shame in it I do wish I had learned it or paid more attention to it. I'm not completely ignorant to basic math, I do know a lot of it.
I would say it is necessary. People move through life changing their minds and developing at different parts of their life. Planting that seed is crucial. Maybe they wont use it for a while but the neural pathway is there. If they ever decided to use it later on they have a jump start. If there is anything to blame it is our archaic education system that was built during the industrial age, along with uninspiring teachers and parents a like these days. Math awesome.
been seeing this article on a few sites; I felt like i had to say something even if it's on page 45.
Any profession where you have to use math you'll benefit from having a knowledge of basic algebra. So... Anything business, science, medical, or engineering related. At the very least. So if we take those out of consideration, really what professions are you left with..? If someone wants to give up on school and relegate themselves to a life of custodial services that's their business, I think. Even carpenters ( a skilled carpenter is a valuable asset) need to know basic geometry and its hard to know what a^2 + b^2 = c^2 means if you haven't taken algebra.
The distinction I'll make, is that we only need basic algebra. f(x) = 3x + 2. I haven't solved a polynomial equation since college... Remember gaussian elimination?
The other half of things is... There are some very smart people that don't have the opportunity to go to college, I'd hate to deprive them of the opportunity to learn solid math at an early age because some right-brained artist was just bad at it. Hypothetically say you make math not required and this kid decides not to take it because he's a slacker in highschool. As if nobody makes bad decisions when you're young.
My advice is require algebra up to graphing plot points and geometry. Have a mechanism for opting out... requiring parent/counseler approval, and classes that proceed at a slower pace.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
The article mentions parametric equations, which is more advance than the simple calculations that these examples involve, and is on par with first order ODEs, which is about as advance as the medical examples given gets.
What you mean subsitutions to introduce a third variable? LOL. Buddy you have much larger problems.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Machines have bugs and are also prone to human error from typos, data entry problems whatever. An intuitive will help you recognise when something is not right.
On another note, Statistics without calculus already has a name called common sense.
On July 29 2012 21:14 Deadlyhazard wrote: I don't feel algebra is necessary to all students, I think middleschool math (pre-algebra) is fine for most people and I really do feel that you don't need algebra from that point forward. A topic like English, however, most people have to use throughout their entire lives and so I see it fit for something like that to stick (at least in an English speaking country) through high school.
What is taught in US high school english classes?
In Germany all we did after about 9th or 10th grade was talk about famous poets/writers from the past and analyze their stuff. Which was INCREDIBLY useless from my standpoint and really didn't add anything to my knowledge or perception of the german language. It just pissed me off and wasted my time.
If you cut everything from education that is not necessary you don't need more than 3 or 4 years of education. In fact you don't need any education, because no knowledge is necessary. But both society and individuals profit a lot from being educated well. So it shouldn't be cut. Especially not a branch of education which is mandatory for every branch of work that is even mildly related to science, engineering, economics, or numbers in general for that matter.
On July 30 2012 21:13 bittman wrote: Well from my experience if you're not learning algebra in high school...well there's not much else maths to do. All the basic maths was covered for us in primary school, and even then early refreshed in year 7. Algebra is not that difficult a concept, it's just some of the applications of algebra and memorising formulas and steps for working out that people struggle with.
Anyway, I'm behind the concept that every student is an individual and some just haven't got the discipline for mathematics. I like the above note that kid's "didn't give a shit" for maths. As a teacher at a private college I always try make the boring stuff relate to necessary elements, but it's definitely still a struggle to get some of my game designers to care about programming in C#. Others just take right to it. Such a difficult balance in just the few people I teach, I can't imagine the complexity of designing a curriculum for thousands of kids with such a pressure to ensure that they are measured to be intelligent along such strict guidelines and then trying to make kids relate to it.
A lot of our programmers learned calculus at some stage, but ask them how they can use it to make a game or program and they'd shrug at you. Specific example, but students don't come out of school with job titles like "generic worker a".
If you are teaching them game design, why not let them use torque and teach them torque-script?
Download some assets and give them a challenge to see if they can make a game out of it. The tech lead managed to make a zombie game in less than a day, but you still do a lot of proper coding to do it so you are still learning programming. Its not like they are gonna become programmers anyway so it doesn't matter if they don't know the computer sciency part of it.
Seems much more relevant to me.
Hardly anyone makes games in C# anyway, so it actually is kinda pointless.
Most of the opinions there have already been raised in this thread, although I think the following 2 offer somewhat of a new perspective.
To the Editor:
I not only agree that algebra and advanced math are not necessary in school or life, but they can have a detrimental effect on a person’s self-confidence and future as well.
As a student, I excelled in the humanities and only squeaked by in math as a result of my parents’ being able to afford a tutor. I always thought that there was something wrong with me in that math just didn’t make any sense.
I avoided it in college and am happy to say I have a very successful career in marketing, where only basic math is required. (I avoid doing any metrics analysis myself and happily delegate.)
If I had not had to expend so much effort on a subject for which I had no aptitude, I might have read more and developed even better critical thinking skills, the most important single thing a person can learn. While basic math should be compulsory, advanced math should not be.
MARKE RUBENSTEIN Stamford, Conn., July 29, 2012
To the Editor:
Andrew Hacker is right: most students will never need to use algebra. Many will struggle to learn it nonetheless. But the answer is not to let students quit as soon as they begin to struggle.
I myself hated mathematics for many years. Through algebra, geometry and trigonometry, I cursed a system that compelled me to take such “useless” courses. Eventually, I was required to take calculus, the most dreaded of all math courses. I prepared for the worst.
It came as a surprise, then, that I quickly found myself enjoying the class. The reason was that I had finally encountered a talented math teacher with a passion for the subject. His passion proved infectious, and now, a year later, I’m looking to study mathematical biology at an Ivy League university.
It’s an outcome I would have never predicted just a few years ago. It could have never happened if I had been allowed to quit when I first struggled with math.
ZACHARY MILLER Kitty Hawk, N.C., July 29, 2012
The first letter basically supports my comparative advantage argument. The second letter talks about how a great math teacher can make the difference between loving the subject and hating it. I don't think I would have ever studied math at university and love the subject if I hadn't had amazing high school math teachers,
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
To be able to read the result u get from the computer u need to know HOW the process works and that u would be able to do that, at least to avoid errors(maybe a error in the input, which gives a huge error on the result, can be tracked really easily if u have an idea of what u expect). Doing regression model btw is just some matrix calculation... the only thing the computer do is just do a massive amount of SIMPLE calculation. Still if u don't know what the computer do u're gonna have huge problems when "shit happens"(and in real life seems to happen a lot)
Just matrix calculations? Have you ever tried to invert a 4x4 matrix without a computer? Not easy. It would probably take 15 minutes, and be highly error-prone. How about a 20x20 matrix? Good luck with that one. 5000x5000? It'll probably take you a lifetime.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
The article mentions parametric equations, which is more advance than the simple calculations that these examples involve, and is on par with first order ODEs, which is about as advance as the medical examples given gets.
What you mean subsitutions to introduce a third variable? LOL. Buddy you have much larger problems.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Machines have bugs and are also prone to human error from typos, data entry problems whatever. An intuitive will help you recognise when something is not right.
On another note, Statistics without calculus already has a name called common sense.
Developing intuition is very important when working in applied math or working with numbers. But how do you teach intuition. Certainly can't be rigorous and precise like actual math. And computer program rarely have bugs that will affect the user, particularly when it's in production. Does anyone seriously think about possible bugs in MATLAB when it spits out the wrong number? There almost certainly is some bug in some arcane corner of MATLAB, but does anyone even know of any bugs it has? Or is it more likely an error in your code?
It boggles my mind that the focal point of conversation is whether or not we should remove algebra. Everyone agrees that bad teachers can make a subject horrible while passionate ones can make all the difference.
People should be having a conversation about changing the math curriculum and standardized tests. Yes, spending hours and hours drilling factoring or multiplying polynomials is stupid.
It's ridiculous how everyone memorizes the quadratic formula with some stupid song but probably only 1% of students could prove it (even after doing 20 worksheets about "completing the square").
Nobody sees that the quadratic formula is just the result of a cool trick, not something weird and arbitrary.
Anyways...
It is absolutely pathetic how low we are willing to set the bar. Wtf is this shit?
Also Abstraction is not at all hard to motivate:
If Bob is taller than Alice and Alice is taller than Chris then Bob is taller than Chris If Michael is taller than Jim and Jim is taller than Tim then Michael is taller than Tim
Ok now let's replace the names with x, y and z. x taller than y and y taller than z implies x is taller than z.
Ok but it's also clear that we could replace "taller" with other relations such as "bigger" or "faster" or "shorter." So why don't we just use ">"
x > y and y > z => x>z
In such a short statement you get complete generality of this simple principle. And then with enough statements and rules for interaction, you can deduce really amazing things. That's the power of mathematics and abstraction.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
To be able to read the result u get from the computer u need to know HOW the process works and that u would be able to do that, at least to avoid errors(maybe a error in the input, which gives a huge error on the result, can be tracked really easily if u have an idea of what u expect). Doing regression model btw is just some matrix calculation... the only thing the computer do is just do a massive amount of SIMPLE calculation. Still if u don't know what the computer do u're gonna have huge problems when "shit happens"(and in real life seems to happen a lot)
Just matrix calculations? Have you ever tried to invert a 4x4 matrix without a computer? Not easy. It would probably take 15 minutes, and be highly error-prone. How about a 20x20 matrix? Good luck with that one. 5000x5000? It'll probably take you a lifetime.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
The article mentions parametric equations, which is more advance than the simple calculations that these examples involve, and is on par with first order ODEs, which is about as advance as the medical examples given gets.
What you mean subsitutions to introduce a third variable? LOL. Buddy you have much larger problems.
On July 30 2012 23:59 paralleluniverse wrote:
On July 30 2012 23:54 Judicator wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:
So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Machines have bugs and are also prone to human error from typos, data entry problems whatever. An intuitive will help you recognise when something is not right.
On another note, Statistics without calculus already has a name called common sense.
Developing intuition is very important when working in applied math or working with numbers. But how do you teach intuition. Certainly can't be rigorous and precise like actual math. And computer program rarely have bugs that will affect the user, particularly when it's in production. Does anyone seriously think about possible bugs in MATLAB when it spits out the wrong number? There almost certainly is some bug in some arcane corner of MATLAB, but does anyone even know of any bugs it has? Or is it more likely an error in your code?
Its not always bugs in MATLAB(sftware computers have testing teams) but any algorithm that you write(does not have to be matlab, btw this needs maths) will be prone to human error. Whether you're an engineer or whatever someone down the line needs to make sure the numbers should be what they expect. Thats where algebraic way of thinking comes in handy for people who need the numbers but have a computer to do everything. Any engineer who can't do calculushas a higher risk of allowing a mistake to waltz right past him. It doesn't even need to be something complicated.
For example if he integrated exp( x) from whatever bounds and gets a negative number then obviously the coding is wrong. If he did know calculus he would know this is garbage and go back find the mistake and save us all a shit ton of time and money. This was a very simplified example but in more complicated case an algebraic way of thinking will help, eg 2 negative numbers multiplied together should be positive, if I divide these two symbols the answer should be less than one w/e.
I think we can all agree that one who knows calc would be less likely to give a nonsense answer. The point is even if a computer can do everything people still need to know how results are derived. This is the best way to gain an understanding of what they should be expecting from machines.
It might not even be the algorithim but the data cleaning thats producing problems. Just because you can use a computer does not mean mathematics is useless.
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
To be able to read the result u get from the computer u need to know HOW the process works and that u would be able to do that, at least to avoid errors(maybe a error in the input, which gives a huge error on the result, can be tracked really easily if u have an idea of what u expect). Doing regression model btw is just some matrix calculation... the only thing the computer do is just do a massive amount of SIMPLE calculation. Still if u don't know what the computer do u're gonna have huge problems when "shit happens"(and in real life seems to happen a lot)
Just matrix calculations? Have you ever tried to invert a 4x4 matrix without a computer? Not easy. It would probably take 15 minutes, and be highly error-prone. How about a 20x20 matrix? Good luck with that one. 5000x5000? It'll probably take you a lifetime.
On July 31 2012 06:43 TrainSamurai wrote:
On July 30 2012 23:06 paralleluniverse wrote:
On July 30 2012 23:03 TrainSamurai wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:58 Morfildur wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:
So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
The article mentions parametric equations, which is more advance than the simple calculations that these examples involve, and is on par with first order ODEs, which is about as advance as the medical examples given gets.
What you mean subsitutions to introduce a third variable? LOL. Buddy you have much larger problems.
On July 30 2012 23:59 paralleluniverse wrote:
On July 30 2012 23:54 Judicator wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:
On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:
So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on.
Since when does a machine just stop working?
The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms.
Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week.
Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month.
Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible.
If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked.
Machines have bugs and are also prone to human error from typos, data entry problems whatever. An intuitive will help you recognise when something is not right.
On another note, Statistics without calculus already has a name called common sense.
Developing intuition is very important when working in applied math or working with numbers. But how do you teach intuition. Certainly can't be rigorous and precise like actual math. And computer program rarely have bugs that will affect the user, particularly when it's in production. Does anyone seriously think about possible bugs in MATLAB when it spits out the wrong number? There almost certainly is some bug in some arcane corner of MATLAB, but does anyone even know of any bugs it has? Or is it more likely an error in your code?
Its not always bugs in MATLAB(sftware computers have testing teams) but any algorithm that you write(does not have to be matlab, btw this needs maths) will be prone to human error. Whether you're an engineer or whatever someone down the line needs to make sure the numbers should be what they expect. Thats where algebraic way of thinking comes in handy for people who need the numbers but have a computer to do everything. Any engineer who can't do calculushas a higher risk of allowing a mistake to waltz right past him. It doesn't even need to be something complicated.
For example if he integrated exp( x) from whatever bounds and gets a negative number then obviously the coding is wrong. If he did know calculus he would know this is garbage and go back find the mistake and save us all a shit ton of time and money. This was a very simplified example but in more complicated case an algebraic way of thinking will help, eg 2 negative numbers multiplied together should be positive, if I divide these two symbols the answer should be less than one w/e.
I think we can all agree that one who knows calc would be less likely to give a nonsense answer. The point is even if a computer can do everything people still need to know how results are derived. This is the best way to gain an understanding of what they should be expecting from machines.
It might not even be the algorithim but the data cleaning thats producing problems. Just because you can use a computer does not mean mathematics is useless.
Where did I argue that you can be an engineer or a computer scientist without knowing math or algebra? In fact, I've been arguing that math or algebra is useless UNLESS you're a engineer, computer scientist, mathematician etc.
I'm just ridiculing the idea that calculations done on a computer can be done without a computer. You can have a look at the answer and use your intuition to guess whether the output is nonsense, but intuition is hard to teach, it comes with experience.
On July 31 2012 20:30 Nizaris wrote: Algebra is the tip of the iceberg. The all education system needs a make-over.
I for one loved math classes and it helped me get my BAC with a 4 in Spanish and like 8 in Philosophy because i had like 17 in math
I find it especially funny how America always worries about unemployment, while at the same time STEM workers are at a shortage, and somehow lowering (the already low) educational standards are a consideration.
On July 31 2012 20:30 Nizaris wrote: Algebra is the tip of the iceberg. The all education system needs a make-over.
I for one loved math classes and it helped me get my BAC with a 4 in Spanish and like 8 in Philosophy because i had like 17 in math
I find it especially funny how America always worries about unemployment, while at the same time STEM workers are at a shortage, and somehow lowering (the already low) educational standards are a consideration.
On August 01 2012 01:26 DoubleReed wrote: Really, mr universe? Anecdotal letters from people who do not need degrees of any kind to do their job?
Come on, man. You're better than this.
If you're talking about the letters to the editor at the NYTimes, then that's not needed for me to make the argument of comparative advantage. It just adds a real world example to support the argument I made earlier based on economics. Or are you talking about the Washington Post article?
I'm not arguing against education, I'm just noting that not everyone needs to know math beyond a very basic level.
On August 01 2012 01:31 DoubleReed wrote: I was referring to the letters to the editor. And comparative advantage has nothing to do with algebra. That's an argument against all education.
You're right, comparative advantage is more general than just algebra. It's an argument against all education that isn't useful to you. But it doesn't necessarily mean that if you're going to be an actor, that you be prevented from learning algebra or geography if you still want to.
It's an argument based on economic efficiency. The guy in the NYTimes article has the right idea, he sucks at math, so he gets someone who is good at math to do the math work, and as a result the work is done quicker. Since the argument isn't "stop teaching algebra", there's nothing to stop you from being a little less efficient by keeping your options open by taking everything you think might potentially be useful.
On August 01 2012 01:31 DoubleReed wrote: I was referring to the letters to the editor. And comparative advantage has nothing to do with algebra. That's an argument against all education.
You're right, comparative advantage is more general than just algebra. It's an argument against all education that isn't useful to you. But it doesn't necessarily mean that if you're going to be an actor, that you be prevented from learning algebra or geography if you still want to.
It's an argument based on economic efficiency. The guy in the NYTimes article has the right idea, he sucks at math, so he gets someone who is good at math to do the math work, and as a result the work is done quicker. Since the argument isn't "stop teaching algebra", there's nothing to stop you from being a little less efficient by keeping your options open by taking everything you think might potentially be useful.
Right, so me the mathematician shouldn't take any english or history when I could focus even more on mathematics. Three major issues.
1. Diploma is worthless. You can't even get a basic grasp of someone's abilities at the basic level by whether they have a diploma or not. There is zero standard.
2. People who could be interested in chemistry and physics would not even be exposed to it because they thought algebra was too hard. We would drastically be reducing scientific exposure to kids, even if they could be quite interested in these fields if they were exposed.
3. People who become interested in fields in college will find themselves woefully unprepared. Colleges waste time and money teaching basic algebra to people who should've learned this in high school. This is already happening to a certain degree.
I'm concerned about other things. Struggling in math teaches you humility. For example, there is no grey area in algebra. You can't negotiate the answer. Your teacher won't be biased towards your answer. Math shows people that there are some truths in the world that they just can't deny. I don't like how there are people who go throughout their lives thinking they're right all the time. Math filters out these people who toss out logic in favor of "common sense".
I can't believe this hit 46 pages. The original article is bullshit written up for 1 thing and 1 thing only, page hits. And the author has done an awesome job, this article has spread around the internet like the plague.
On July 31 2012 20:30 Nizaris wrote: Algebra is the tip of the iceberg. The all education system needs a make-over.
I for one loved math classes and it helped me get my BAC with a 4 in Spanish and like 8 in Philosophy because i had like 17 in math
I find it especially funny how America always worries about unemployment, while at the same time STEM workers are at a shortage, and somehow lowering (the already low) educational standards are a consideration.
There is no STEM shortage. We have more than enough qualified STEM workers, just not enough work for them/
Algebra should be taught in elementary school, and by the time you are going to a University, you can decide to stop learning that shit. The problem is that we teach it too late, and people have already decided they hate it because it's hard. Elementary school math is a joke, you could condense all of it into one year easily.
On July 30 2012 20:19 evanthebouncy! wrote: yeah I mean... I can vouch for optional learning in Algebra only if I can attain optional learning of Literature.
Do I quote shake-a-spear? Do I care if some essay was written cleverly to "prove" a point supposedly another writer wrote? No.
So... to make it even, make high level literature beyond grammar and 3 paragraph essay optional. Then I can take algebra as optional.
And thus, a new age of knowledge begins. Oh, wait... while we're at it, can we cut art, music, religion, history, physics and chemistry, too please? Most students won't need all that stuff in their real life.
People say that they'd never ever use math, but you will always use algebra. I remember when I used to work at McDonalds. There were 2 guys who were 26 and 27 years old. They ended up getting fired, because they could never have close to the correct change in there drawer.