On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
All this school talk has me thinking... is teaching kids an absolute nightmare now? Every little Timmy and Jane probably has a phone where they can post on facebook and play angry birds. Back in my day the most entertaining thing you could possibly do was type "hello" on your upside down calculator...
On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote: There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Going by that logic there is NO reason A should come before B or 1 before 2.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
imo, algebra is just straight up fundamentals.. i knew algebra subconsciously before i learned algebra so it was shit easy for me (since i have really strong fundamentals)
On July 29 2012 16:17 DannyJ wrote: All this school talk has me thinking... is teaching kids an absolute nightmare now? Every little Timmy and Jane probably has a phone where they can post on facebook and play angry birds. Back in my day the most entertaining thing you could possibly do was type "hello" on your upside down calculator...
I just graduated recently, but in my school we typed "BOOBS" to pass the time...
I'm an engineer, so this is probably subjective, but I use algebra almost every day, even non professionally. Everything you learn in maths and science is not about the subject in question, but learning how to solve problems. Algebra teaches logic at the most elementary level.
On July 29 2012 16:08 paralleluniverse wrote: There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Going by that logic there is NO reason A should come before B or 1 before 2.
Well technically the order of the letters of the alphabet is also completely arbitrary, it really doesn't matter what sequence they're listed in since the full sequence isn't actually relevant in constructing words...
As for the OP, by that logic if algebra is unnecessary, then so are the 4 years of literary analysis BS aka "English" classes which are mandatory here...
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Holy shit you're awesome. I never actually put thought into why multiplication took place first, just assumed there was a good reason. AND THERE WAS. MY ASSUMPTIONS MUST ALWAYS BE RIGHT I'LL NEVER QUESTION A SINGLE THING AGAIN! Anywho, you're awesome, stay awesome.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon.
There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Everything in mathematics that is true would still be true in exactly the same way if we arbitrarily chose to do addition before multiplication.
Obviously it's efficient to have conventions because it saves writing, and basically everyone understands to do brackets first. And really that's all anyone needs to know.
I'm confused about your argument. Mathematics is a system developed by humans with underlying foundations. The system works because operations have specific orders. Under the system, they are in fact true.
If they were in fact arbitrary, the mathematical system would numerically come out to different results and therefore be a different system. It would still be math I guess, but you couldn't classify it as "true" under current mathematics.
No, it won't come out to a different answer. The only thing that would change is the notation you use to write down the concept.
There's a difference between axioms and notation.
The integral of sin(x) should still be -cos(x) regardless of what order of operation convention you use. You'll just have to write the brackets in a different way.
Alright, lets throw PEMDAS out the window. You are somebody new to math that does not know PEMDAS, how do you construct an equation using brackets if you dont know the order in which it is supposed to be solved?
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
If you want to give a rigorous definition of pi*e, it should not be the sum of pi, repeated e times. It should be: let {x_n} be a sequence that converges to pi, and {y_n} be a sequence that converges to e, we know these sequences exist because the real field is a complete metric space, then {x_n*y_n} is a Cauchy sequence because {x_n} and {y_n} are, so it's limit also exists in the real field, call this limit pi*e.
Honestly if you fail algebra it means you don't care. There is no excuse for failing algebra. If you fail algebra and drop out of school because of that, then you deserve what you get for doing so.
Knowing the basics of algebra is something I believe everyone needs to know. Other kinds of math like calculus etc. Of course not lol. Having a general knowledge of algebra truly is used very commonly in day to day life, unlike many other forms of math
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
In order to change pemdas, you would have to change basically all of math, physics, chemistry... pretty much every science. Sure, if you went back in time to the beginnings of creating math you could maybe change it... but everything in all of those areas all build off of what we have developed for thousands of years. This is why we learn math in the way that we do. I mean, if you think about how things are now, can you come up with another way to solve an equation while changing the order of operations?
PS: Everything is created by man. Music, language, numbers, everything. Language is abritrary, does that make it any less important?
No, in order to change PEMDAS you'd need to add a few extra parentheses in some places.
Adding in parenthesis is still following PEMDAS. How would you know where the parenthesis go if you didnt know PEMDAS?
I could use brackets if you like. The point is, we could easily decide on any random convention for operation order, and we wouldnt have to 'change basically all of math, physics, chemstry' or 'go back in time to the beginnings of creating math'. Math is conceptual - the symbols we use to represent those concepts on paper don't mean a damn thing. The symbols are easily interchangeable, but the concepts stay the same.
On July 29 2012 15:51 nick00bot wrote: I think the real problem isn't algebra but the weird fear of mathematics that is specifically terrible in the United states. This might sound weird, but In highschool I did more creative thinking in math classes than any other ones. I feel like because there are universal relations between numbers, math is the one subject that you can seamlessly build upon from one level to the next while tackling increasingly complex problems, and that kind of progression to me is the defining feature of human intelligence. because of this you can take all your past experience to tackle a problem, and that kind of excercise seems essential to developing minds. not to mention mathematical thinking can benefit you in all sorts of careers, like for example music theory is SUPER math based and many princinciples in art have to do with ratios and other mathematical stuff. Even in daily life I find myself using math all the time, like how driving is mental calculus, or how the other day i was wondering on why eating slowly lets you eat more and settled on " well there is probably a steady rate at which you digest and your fullness is just DE(ating)/DT - D(digestion)/DT
annnyways, I think people just arent willing to apply math in any situation unless they absolutely have to, and when they do they just follow rules given by their teachers instead of logic. like in my stats class I was arguing with my ex over whether a type 1 error is inherently worse than a type 2 error. she insisted that the notes said that type 1 was worse, and I had to stop myself from just screaming " USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE YOU SHEEP"
tl;dr: change the culture, not the math
I agree, it's a cultural problem. If the culture is not finding STEM jobs interesting or highly value education itself like several Asian countries, then of course more Americans will give up learning algebra. That "perseverance" the writer's talking about is motivation.
I do agree with the author's point that we need to focus more on critical thinking, and that we need a larger variety of schools.
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Again, you only know it is that order because youve learned it. Somebody new might try to pair it up as 3 x (7 + 4) x 5. They dont know the brackets arent supposed to go there. They just see some numbers and they know they need brackets somewhere.
Also, pi * e is the sum of pi repeated e times, it is just strange because you have awkward numbers.
If we can acknowledge that Economics and Finance are both areas in which one would benefit from a knowledge of algebra (and occasionally higher math as well) then I think all we need to do to show that math is a necessary subject is to show that knowledge of Economics and Finance is crucially important to most people's lives.
So, how many people out there do you think have any amount of money? How about debt? Investments?
I mean really, its bad enough that kids can graduate without knowing how compound interest works, now we're not even going to give them the tools necessary to figure it out?
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently:
This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff.
I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time.
These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise.
So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what?
The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics.
It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1.
Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math.
It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow.
I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question.
What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS?
EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
Now you've basically proven the point that we should teach mathematical literacy to the general population instead of just symbolic manipulation.
If the convention was to do addition then multiplication, we could have just written, position = [.5(acceleration)(time)^2] + [(initial velocity)(time)] + (initial position) and still have gone to the moon. There is NO reason why multiplication should be done before addition, other than because people say so. It's a convention, it's notation. It's not a mathematical truth.
Actually I think you're wrong. If I can believe one of my better math teachers the reason for multiplication first is that a multiplication is just short for multiple additions. e.g. 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 has to give the same result as 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 or 3+3+3+3+3+3+3 and 4+4+4+4+4. The result in both of those additions is 41.
Getting this result with using multiplicatives instead of multiple additives is ONLY possible if you deal with the multiplications first.
PS: FUCK YES I LEARNED SOMETHING IN MATH. My teacher would be proud of me.
PPS: The feeling of being a complete math-smartass is fucking awesome. Why did I never think of that during school?
Now you're just stacking convention on top of convention.
Why should 3 x 7 + 4 x 5 mean 7+7+7+5+5+5+5 instead of [(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]*[(7+4)*(7+4)*(7+4)]?
The idea that multiplication is repeated addition is something that is taught in primary school, but it's not generally true, how is pi*e, the sum of pi, repeated e times?
Now can go to the question as to WHY those conventions came into existance in the first place. Because they make sense in daily life.
I have two apples. You have three times as many apples as me. That means you have 3 times more apples than me. Now we can write that as 2+2+2+2+2+2=6 or 2x3=6.
Do you go in a store where paint is sold and ask why blue is called blue and not yellow?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CKKQl.jpg)
