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We have a lot of dropouts because subject X is hard for some kids.
If we don't make them learn subject X, the ones who would have failed subject X stay in school, raising statistic Y.
Substitute "algebra" for subject X and "graduation rate" for Y and you have the argument presented in the article. What we REALLY need to do is find out how to maximize Y, right?
If you instead use the set of all subjects in our current curriculum for X, it turns out, Y approaches 100%*
am I doing it right?
* minus the few nerds who insist on actually learning something, but we're not worried about them anyway)
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This is a tough one because geometry up doesn't have much day to day value for the average person. However, at the same time it is required knowledges for many areas of study. Decreasing drop out rates and/or improving other skills, such as writing, might be more beneficial. Atleast, it's not as useless as art though :D.
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On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CKKQl.jpg) This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better.
It is NOT a logical procedure.
It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
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IMO algebra is fancy problem solving.
remove that from a schools curriculum and well the education level of your country goes to potato.
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I'm skeptical of school's that are "well-endowed" to have a proportion of students that fail at algebra. If it means financially well-endowed then the point is irrelevant and the inclusion only serves as empty statistics to prove a point as wealthy and poor schools have their share of lazy students. If it means academically well-endowed then I really doubt it, none of the people that I know that went to the academically "well-endowed" school here (such as Ruse, Syd Tech & Boys) ever had trouble with basic algebra.
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On July 29 2012 15:39 r.Evo wrote:
"You're not here because you'll need whatever you're going to learn for your entire life. You're mostly here to learn HOW to learn certain things - if you get some cool stuff that's helpful down the road then that's a bonus."
Quote my math teacher from 11th grade.
If there is a 40% failure rate in a single subject and on top of that other countries manage to teach more about it in less time then it's not the subjects fault.
Edit: In my school (standard Gymnasium) we had about 5% of people having to repeat classes and that's not exactly a low rate for Bavaria specifically. I also genuinely doubt that the algebra we learned was considerably harder than at the schools that article refers to.
^^ truth
The problem isn't with the subject, it's not hard either. It's that kids don't even try... I would like to hear a case where a kid sat down and said, "i need to learn this", and applied himself to learning it. I mean, everyone is capable of learning it. It's just a matter of dedication. Sigh... I'm just speechless as to how someone can even suggest this, I'm glad Canada hasn't been effected. To be honest, the united states should be looking for help from other countries, to give them advice on how they run their education system instead of being ignorant...
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If there is anybody reading this thread that has issues with math, algebra in particular... what about it trips you up? Is it the rules? Is it the numbers with no visible real world relevancy? What is it? I really want to understand what issues people have with it.
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It's definitely how they teach it that's the problem. I never liked math one bit until I got out of school and started to study it myself (Now I'm going back to a get a physics degree). It really depends on the teacher and especially the math book. Algebra taught me how to be a good problem solver rather than how to solve quadratic equations, thanks in large to the books that I chose (i.e. , Algebra by Gelfand, How to Solve it by G.Polya) and elemetary geometry gave me a taste of logic and proofs (Geometry by harold jacobs / Geometry Revisted Coexter). They should teach algebra in order to teach problem solving skills at the very least, and they should present students with engaging, challenging and relevant problems instead of the mind-numblingly repetitive stuff hashed out at the end of each chapter.
One of the best examples is Geometry by Harold Jacobs. The way you're introduced to equivalent statements is with an Alice in Wonderland comic. "You should say what you mean," -- "I do, at least I mean what I say" ---"Not the same thing a bit!" said the mad hatter, "Why you might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see.'
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Some people can think maths should be pretty easy for smart people since it's easy to them, but some people are really smart but can't have good academic results in maths.
I agree with the OP.
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Yes i think it is necessary, someone can't just say: "I'm bad in subject XY" let's just erase it.
I personally nearly dropped several times to in my opinion stupid subjects like french and english.
But i somehow managed to get through and I'm now studying where i just need maths and physics so now everything is fine for me.
It is not possible to just do what you want most, like in real life you have to do things you dont like - you just need to accept it as a challenge, otherwise people get lazy and that is what makes the most trouble. Not any Subject - just peoples mindset towards things they dont like.
P.S: Sry for bad english i think it's obvious why i nearly dropped several times^^
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On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position)
Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
EDIT: That equation was derived using a very logical process too btw. As with all of the other kinematic equations and other equations that are used all the damned time. Thing is, very intelligent people made it so that it seems invisible as the machines crunch the numbers for you.
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On July 29 2012 15:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
If there is anybody reading this thread that has issues with math, algebra in particular... what about it trips you up? Is it the rules? Is it the numbers with no visible real world relevancy? What is it? I really want to understand what issues people have with it.
I've always thought of Math to be like SC2, all the tools are there and there's tons of resources out there to help you if you need them, but at the end of the day you still need to grind in those hours perfecting your mechanics (fundamentals?) to be any good. I guess some people just dont like that. I find it different from (for example) English class, where some people just have the knack for writing good essays and are generally very articulate, so the workload/studying/preperation may vary.
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English sure is necessary. Given most of the responses here I'm guessing most people didn't read the article, read just the title, or failed in reading comprehension. He's not saying "let's just excise algebra because everyone is failing." He's asking why people are failing and what value the curriculum has in leading to success. Then he's asking if there are alternative ways to either teach the subject itself or teach the underlying quantitative reasoning skills in an alternative form so that people may potentially still grasp the value of learning math but without the unnecessary formulas and such. Of course there are a lot of arguments against his position, but most people are attacking straw men or reiterating points he's already addressed in the article. Why don't people read the fucking article.
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On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention.
What is a logical procedure.
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People drop out because math is too hard? They're dropping out cause they are fucking lazy and wouldn't make it through high school anyway, regardless of the inclusion of mathematics.
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On July 29 2012 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2012 15:55 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. It is NOT a logical procedure. It's an arbitrary man-made convention. position = .5(acceleration)(time)^2 + (initial velocity)(time) + (initial position) Solve that without pemdas. Show me how that is arbitrary. Without it, we wouldnt have gone to space or done any number of other things. It is vital.
He is saying that the rule was invented by mathematicians to make operations consistent across the board. They could have easily made a different rule that achieves the same result. Actually all of math is created by man as a way of representing and transforming behaviorial patterns; but that is a lesson for another day.
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An argument for lowering math requirements in high school because Algebra is too hard is a step in the wrong direction. A very big step.
Don't ever coddle students because things are "hard to learn." It's viewpoints like that author's that worries me about America's future generations. If you remove Algebra, what kind of value does a high school diploma seriously carry?
If someone flashes the E = mc^2 formula on a TV screen, I expect an adult to understand what the goddamn ^2 means.
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On July 29 2012 15:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:
If there is anybody reading this thread that has issues with math, algebra in particular... what about it trips you up? Is it the rules? Is it the numbers with no visible real world relevancy? What is it? I really want to understand what issues people have with it.
My worst subject in school was French. Closely followed by Math, Physics and then at one point Chemistry. In retrospect the only real answer to why I was horrible at math and physics was because I was lazy as hell. I never did my homework (which worked fine in e.g. languages, history etc.) and the few times I actually sat down and prepared for exams I did okay. Since I'm probably a bad example when it comes to this I also gotta say that the classes I was in HIGHLY varied depending on which teachers we had.
Our rating system goes from 6 (worst) to 1 (best) and I saw the average in my classes swing between 3.5 and 2 simply because we had different teachers. I always felt that math is THE subject where it matters the most how people explain it to you. The ability to say "Okay, I see you guys don't get this, let me explain it in a different way" is what makes or breaks a math teacher imo.
PS: I LOVED STATISTICS THOUGH. omg. We had so many cool problems and situations when we did that stuff. That excited me way more than like proving that (a + b)² = (a + b)(a + b).
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I think the math education in the states is already dumbed down enough compared to that of other nations. It's really evident when you're in a public university classroom when half of the room consists of international students.
If you make math a "choice" early on in high school, all you're doing is forcing people to decide their career paths much too early.
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EPT
