EPTIs Algebra Necessary? - Page 44
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
On July 30 2012 23:23 paralleluniverse wrote: Interesting. But doctors aren't researchers. I don't dispute that medical research requires a lot of math. When I was referring to first order ODEs, I was refering to this example "-deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate". To be a doctor, you need a level of knowledge in the medical field that definitely requires such basic math. Unless of course, you are happy with doctors not actually understanding anything about medicine but knows how to read the instruction manuals on the machines. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
If we let kids skip algebra at age 12 or whenever they take it these days, then we are effectively letting them close a lot of doors at a very young age. Should 12 year olds be making those kinds of decisions? A second question is should more students just be in vocational programs. We would probably have a more prepared workforce if we did allow students to just decide to get vocational training starting somewhere between 12-15, but that also closes a lot of doors at a young age. | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
Like the journalists has suggested, there are a lot of evident benefits for students and parents. Some parents spend thousands of dollars getting tutors or sending their kids to after school academies just so their kids can pass math. I don't think any of those parents are hoping their kids to be mathematicians, engineers or economists. Let's be honest, there are a lot of kids who just simply can't do algebra and I'm sure most of them know that themselves. And for the most part, these kids become manual labour workers which is still an essential part of our economy. However, I don't believe comments like “to expect all students to master algebra will cause more students to drop out.” For those who stay in school, there are often “exit exams,” almost all of which contain an algebra component. In Oklahoma, 33 percent failed to pass last year, as did 35 percent in West Virginia." implies that algebra is too hard or students can't learn algebra and therefore algebra should not be an requirement from graduation. I think this is more of a reflection that education in North America (Yes, Canada included) has been too slack on the kids in elementary schools and simply lack the fundamentals in mathematical analysis. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On July 30 2012 20:19 evanthebouncy! wrote: yeah I mean... I can vouch for optional learning in Algebra only if I can attain optional learning of Literature. Do I quote shake-a-spear? Do I care if some essay was written cleverly to "prove" a point supposedly another writer wrote? No. So... to make it even, make high level literature beyond grammar and 3 paragraph essay optional. Then I can take algebra as optional. And thus, a new age of knowledge begins. Oh, wait... while we're at it, can we cut art, music, religion, history, physics and chemistry, too please? Most students won't need all that stuff in their real life. On July 30 2012 15:33 swiftazn wrote: Speaking of Neil Degrasse Tyson: Not to mention the Algebra that people are failing at is mathematics from well lets see.... about 2-3 thousand years ago.... This needs more attention. Dude is so much more elaborate than any of us. <3 | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote: Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic. You go away to solve a math problem during surgery? Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that. More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
As long as western culture propagates this idea that failure in the classroom is never the child's fault, we will keep getting completely retarded suggestions like cutting algebra out of schools. ITS FUCKING ALGEBRA, NOT MULTIV CALC >.> | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 30 2012 23:54 Judicator wrote: More like computers and machines stop working, what do you do now? Oh shit I didn't take algebra in grade school and now my patient is dying; let's hope the other people in the OR knows whats going on. Since when does a machine just stop working? The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computers use algorithms. Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variables, it would probably take a week. Try solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month. Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible. If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked. | ||
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Perscienter
957 Posts
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 30 2012 23:51 meadbert wrote: I use algebra all the time in my job and it is very required. If we let kids skip algebra at age 12 or whenever they take it these days, then we are effectively letting them close a lot of doors at a very young age. Should 12 year olds be making those kinds of decisions? A second question is should more students just be in vocational programs. We would probably have a more prepared workforce if we did allow students to just decide to get vocational training starting somewhere between 12-15, but that also closes a lot of doors at a young age. That points to the main problem with today's attitudes. It is assumed that if you're bad at something at age 12 you will be bad at it your whole life. Motivation is a huge part of learning. If a kid decides they want to be an engineer at 16 they should get the opportunity to "make up" for the amount of math they missed out before. Instead the most likely reaction will be: "LOL you're bad at math, forget about it." Realistically, high-school math isn't that hard when you get good instruction and you're extrememly motivated. If the base workload is kept in check (and that's a big if), there's no reason why a 16 year old can't make up for 5 or 6 years of missed knowledge in 2 years. I think we should let kids learn what they _want_ to learn, for at least 50% of the school time. At some point they'll bump into something that takes algebra to understand, at which point they will learn it. | ||
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Tarot
Canada440 Posts
On July 30 2012 23:53 r.Evo wrote: This needs more attention. Dude is so much more elaborate than any of us. <3 Indeed. Neil Degrasse Tyson really hit it on the head. Also of course: jobs jobs jobs | ||
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Gogleion
United States534 Posts
How I see it is that our education is decreasing, then we blame something other than the students, and reduce the challenges that they go through. Then the students don't have challenges and don't try in school then they get worse grades, then we reduce the challenges that they go through because it's clearly not their fault, then they don't think school is important so then they don't try and then get worse grades, which then makes us think that the education system is too tough, so then we bring down the challenges, but then the students don't have to apply themselves and then get bored and when they get bored they get bad grades, so then they get dumber and we think it's not their fault so then we reduce the challenges that they go through. It took millions of years for humans to develop intelligence beyond any other species, but at this rate we are going to lose it faster than we gained it. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On July 30 2012 23:59 paralleluniverse wrote: Since when does a machine stop working? The reason why calculations are done on a computer is because it would take days to do by hand. Not everything is as simple as substituting a number in an equation. Computer use algorithms. Try fitting a linear regression model with 20 data points and 2 response variables by hand. It would probably take an hour. Try it for 1000 data points and 20 response variable, it would probably take a week. Trying solving a partial differential equation numerically, for example with finite difference methods, by hand. It would probably take a month. Try a MCMC simulation without a computer. It's virtually impossible. If the computer breaks down, the solution isn't to do it by hand -- it's fix the computer or you're fucked. Of course those things are done on a computer but think of simpler things like the previously mentioned dosage calculation. Note: I'm not in the medical field and i never watched Dr. House, so my examples might not be the best. The patient has an ABC value of X, i know it takes amount Y to normalize it from value Z, how many milligram should he get to normalize the value so he doesn't die? Another example: The surgery will take X minutes and the patient weights about Y kg. Administering anesthesia for that duration requires a dosage of Z. After ~75% of the time you notice that the anesthesia wears off early, how much do you have to add? You can't go to a PC to do that since that would violate about 20 hygene rules, you have to do that in your head. You need to have a good grasp of math to be able to approximate the values correctly on-the-fly. Noone says you have to do statistics or simulations in your head or by hand but there are lots of situations where you can't use a PC or even a calculator. | ||
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Ssin
United States88 Posts
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 31 2012 00:11 Morfildur wrote: Of course those things are done on a computer but think of simpler things like the previously mentioned dosage calculation. Note: I'm not in the medical field and i never watched Dr. House, so my examples might not be the best. The patient has an ABC value of X, i know it takes amount Y to normalize it from value Z, how many milligram should he get to normalize the value so he doesn't die? Another example: The surgery will take X minutes and the patient weights about Y kg. Administering anesthesia for that duration requires a dosage of Z. After ~75% of the time you notice that the anesthesia wears off early, how much do you have to add? You can't go to a PC to do that since that would violate about 20 hygene rules, you have to do that in your head. You need to have a good grasp of math to be able to approximate the values correctly on-the-fly. Noone says you have to do statistics or simulations in your head or by hand but there are lots of situations where you can't use a PC or even a calculator. Did you just make all of that up? | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
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harlock78
United States94 Posts
On July 30 2012 17:19 Whitewing wrote: I too have an economics degree, and I think you missed the point. The purpose of all those graphs and models wasn't to show you how real life works at all, they were to explain relationships between different variables and events (such as the relationship between supply and demand, or the relationship between the supply of the labor market and wages). You used mathematics to learn principles and concepts, principles and concepts which aren't really possible to properly learn without the math. Sure, someone can tell you "price ceilings cause dead weight loss!" and can even color in the triangle on the graph for you to make you see it, but without actually knowing and understanding where all those lines on the graph come from, you learn absolutely nothing. The point I made before that you somehow missed is that with your plan, you aren't teaching any principles, because they don't have the background to learn principles. You are teaching watered down, fluffed up formulas with a description that will go right over their heads, that they won't be able to apply when faced with a situation in life that calls for it due to a lack of basic, fundamental understanding and critical thinking skills. Thus, useless. So should we not bother vulgarizing science because 90% of people don't get the principles thus this is useless? Too much STEM elitism here. The fact is algebra up to linear equations is fundamental for everyone, but that is middle school, not high school (I hope; not too familiar with US school system). However polynomial and non linear functions, trigonometry and other high school algebra is useless for a large number of professions: Everything around non technical communication-media-advertisement-journalism, humanities, law, lower office jobs etc... There could definitely be improvement in the way algebra is taught, but I don't think it should be a requirement in these fields if this lead to such dropout rates. If individuals really need this math they can do it at a slower pace or later on in life. Yes algebra is good for the brain, citizen development etc.. but let's be realist here. Its not the only thing, and many people truly fear and hate it. In lower office jobs, even if there seem to be an algebra component, there will be a software where you just repeatedly enter numbers you were told to enter. Employers typically don't care if you understand the principles or not. | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
On July 30 2012 23:49 Crownlol wrote: Ok, remove algebra since it's almost never used in the workplace. But replace it with something more relevant, like C. And how do you expect someone to learn C (or any programming language) without understanding of basic abstractions like variables and functions? On July 30 2012 22:45 Markwerf wrote: The major flaw of this article is that it implies that dropouts are bad. They are not. Weeding out bad students early on is crucial and math just happens to be a good indicator for that. I think in the US, dropouts are generally viewed as bad because (a) they increase crime rates, (b) the US wants a high graduation rate to boast about. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Louis8k8
Canada285 Posts
Really it's not practical at all. But my prof explained to me (after directly asking him why are we learning half the shit we learn), he said it opens the mind and trains it to think rationally. For algebra, what you are really doing is looking at the bare-bone of a problem with all the extra useless crap stripped away. And then you realize you can re-arrange the situation in anyway you want as long as you follow a set of rules, and the result will be the same. This kind of process of problem solving directly applies to real life. It's not the actual numbers and calculation itself. It's simply thinking of alternatives, looking past the useless extra things, while confined within rules. It's like abiding by federal/municipal laws. You learn to follow them but not be confined into a single thoughtless step-by-step method someone else told you to do. It's almost subconscious learning. The plain math itself is rarely applicable, but what it trains your brain to do is something really valuable. ============ While it's seemingly shallow/stupid, people in reality will lower their respect towards you if you don't know your algebra. | ||
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