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"...although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status."
I am a medical student, and I would like to disagree with the statement that algebra is not used. The fact that we do not pull out a TI-83 and graph f(x) does not mean math was not vital to a diagnosis. The reason we are expected to know what is superficially "useless" knowledge is that the equipment being used and the conclusions we draw from them are predicated on these mathematical equations and physics concepts. It is bad science to blindly agree with the results when one doesnt know how the machine got there (technically, the people who designed the machine to deliver answers). When one uses an instrument, I would hope one has a good idea of how it works. I wouldnt want an anesthesiologist who doesnt know what the functions mean on my gas exchange.
We use calculators after we have learned how to do the math ourselves, not before. The calculator becomes a luxury, not a necessity. Which is what it would become if we choose to ignore the basics before relegating it to a tool.
The answer to failure in American schools is not to relinquish classes that prove difficult. I am not saying that I have the answer to the education system, but I would wager that making mathematics optional will do more harm than good for students.
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On July 30 2012 22:19 TheFlash wrote:
"...although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status."
I am a medical student, and I would like to disagree with the statement that algebra is not used. The fact that we do not pull out a TI-83 and graph f(x) does not mean math was not vital to a diagnosis. The reason we are expected to know what is superficially "useless" knowledge is that the equipment being used and the conclusions we draw from them are predicated on these mathematical equations and physics concepts. It is bad science to blindly agree with the results when one doesnt know how the machine got there (technically, the people who designed the machine to deliver answers). When one uses an instrument, I would hope one has a good idea of how it works. I wouldnt want an anesthesiologist who doesnt know what the functions mean on my gas exchange.
We use calculators after we have learned how to do the math ourselves, not before. The calculator becomes a luxury, not a necessity. Which is what it would become if we choose to ignore the basics before relegating it to a tool.
The answer to failure in American schools is not to relinquish classes that prove difficult. I am not saying that I have the answer to the education system, but I would wager that making mathematics optional will do more harm than good for students.
The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
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On July 30 2012 22:23 Papulatus wrote:
The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
You really can't do any math beyond an elementary school level without having basic algebraic skills, so by removing algebra, you really do get rid of math as a subject.
This article bothers me for so many reasons. Most subjects in school are useless when it comes to day to day life, but that doesn't mean we should cut them out because some students have problems. I took years of Spanish, and I only use it because I make a point to use it. I could easily get through my life without knowing it at all. It really comes down to the notion that math is some sort of beast that requires innate talent. Many people say things like "oh I'm just not a math person" and that seems to make total sense to everyone. If I said "oh I'm just not a reading person" I would be considered an idiot. As for the defense of algebra: this is probably the easiest and most useful of math subjects. Any minor calculation you have to make during your day requires it. How much money should I save to afford this car? What will my paycheck be if I take off 3 days? How many miles is this road trip if I don't go through Chicago? These all require basic algebraic skills.
Rant over.
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On July 30 2012 22:19 TheFlash wrote:
"...although none of the graduates I’ve met have ever used it in diagnosing or treating their patients. Medical schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins demand calculus of all their applicants, even if it doesn’t figure in the clinical curriculum, let alone in subsequent practice. Mathematics is used as a hoop, a badge, a totem to impress outsiders and elevate a profession’s status."
I am a medical student, and I would like to disagree with the statement that algebra is not used. The fact that we do not pull out a TI-83 and graph f(x) does not mean math was not vital to a diagnosis. The reason we are expected to know what is superficially "useless" knowledge is that the equipment being used and the conclusions we draw from them are predicated on these mathematical equations and physics concepts. It is bad science to blindly agree with the results when one doesnt know how the machine got there (technically, the people who designed the machine to deliver answers). When one uses an instrument, I would hope one has a good idea of how it works. I wouldnt want an anesthesiologist who doesnt know what the functions mean on my gas exchange.
We use calculators after we have learned how to do the math ourselves, not before. The calculator becomes a luxury, not a necessity. Which is what it would become if we choose to ignore the basics before relegating it to a tool.
The answer to failure in American schools is not to relinquish classes that prove difficult. I am not saying that I have the answer to the education system, but I would wager that making mathematics optional will do more harm than good for students.
So what exactly do you use math for?
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On July 30 2012 22:31 ThirdDegree wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 22:23 Papulatus wrote:
The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students. You really can't do any math beyond an elementary school level without having basic algebraic skills, so by removing algebra, you really do get rid of math as a subject. This article bothers me for so many reasons. Most subjects in school are useless when it comes to day to day life, but that doesn't mean we should cut them out because some students have problems. I took years of Spanish, and I only use it because I make a point to use it. I could easily get through my life without knowing it at all. It really comes down to the notion that math is some sort of beast that requires innate talent. Many people say things like "oh I'm just not a math person" and that seems to make total sense to everyone. If I said "oh I'm just not a reading person" I would be considered an idiot. As for the defense of algebra: this is probably the easiest and most useful of math subjects. Any minor calculation you have to make during your day requires it. How much money should I save to afford this car? What will my paycheck be if I take off 3 days? How many miles is this road trip if I don't go through Chicago? These all require basic algebraic skills. Rant over.
Yes, if you stop learning algebra you have no hope of progressing onto further math.
But further math is even more abstract and useless unless you plan to work in math, science, or engineering (or possibly some particular business fields).
None of those examples you've given is algebra, it's basic grade 5 arithmetics, which everyone learns.
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The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students.
I know that he is not saying that math should be removed as a whole. However, by making it optional, many students will avoid a difficult subject for no other reason than making it easier on themselves. (I probably would have, knowing how I was in grade school) This can cause an effects such as the exclusion of students who may have succeeded as mathematicians but feared getting an B on their report card.
So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations
-acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures
-Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O.
-deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing)
-quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
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Not really a good article.
I agree that mathematics could be taught in a different way but this is already a ongoing movement. From what i've seen and heard there is less pure algebra these days but more mathematical problems given in a more practical form, like short story questions. Math and algebra itself in this manner is extremely crucial and learns students analytical methods which are crucial in any field. Also in any field at an academic level some math understanding is required just because a certain grasp on how to proof things and what counts as sufficient evidence for a thesis needs some math understanding. If you do a thesis on some language subject it's still important to have a feeling for how to sample your interview subjects etc. etc.
The major flaw of this article is that it implies that dropouts are bad. They are not. Weeding out bad students early on is crucial and math just happens to be a good indicator for that. Don't quote me on this but I think there are two reasons for math being the hurdle for many people:
- it's the easiest subject to test effectively because no subject is as black and white as math. The test scores are probably most reliable for measuring the actual skill compared to other high school subjects which are far more subjective.
- math scores probably have the highest correlation with overall scores (GPA or whatever). A good score on math is more indicative for a high GPA then any other subject i assume. Excelling in a course like french of chemistry has less indication of you having success at your academic endeavours than math does.
I'm not all too familiar with how math is given in the US but I can imagine it could use some more changes in methods especially given that US students rank a bit low on their math skills.
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On July 30 2012 22:35 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 22:31 ThirdDegree wrote:On July 30 2012 22:23 Papulatus wrote:
The author is not calling for getting rid of math in schools, he's calling for getting rid of alegbra for some students. You really can't do any math beyond an elementary school level without having basic algebraic skills, so by removing algebra, you really do get rid of math as a subject. This article bothers me for so many reasons. Most subjects in school are useless when it comes to day to day life, but that doesn't mean we should cut them out because some students have problems. I took years of Spanish, and I only use it because I make a point to use it. I could easily get through my life without knowing it at all. It really comes down to the notion that math is some sort of beast that requires innate talent. Many people say things like "oh I'm just not a math person" and that seems to make total sense to everyone. If I said "oh I'm just not a reading person" I would be considered an idiot. As for the defense of algebra: this is probably the easiest and most useful of math subjects. Any minor calculation you have to make during your day requires it. How much money should I save to afford this car? What will my paycheck be if I take off 3 days? How many miles is this road trip if I don't go through Chicago? These all require basic algebraic skills. Rant over. Yes, if you stop learning algebra you have no hope of progressing onto further math. But further math is even more abstract and useless unless you plan to work in math, science, or engineering (or possibly some particular business fields). None of those examples you've given is algebra, it's basic grade 5 arithmetics, which everyone learns.
Probably not the best example, but I use algebra every time I need to check my grades in terms of what I'll need to get for an A, what I'll need to get a particular grade to get a particular GPA (not so important in college), etc. I'm assuming these tasks use algebra because they involve a variable or two--I honestly don't recall what I learned in algebra that well, but I know it has been built into me in a way. Of course, you can do this without algebra, but it's just much easier to think in terms of an algebra when a particular problem arises (this usually involves some financial stuff for me). And I feel that learning to think in a different paradigm to solve real life problems only helps you to learn other paradigms easier. I see algebra more of a means than an end.
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On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based)
Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
You go away to solve a math problem during surgery?
Also, nothing here seems to involve math beyond grade 12. Mostly just arithmetic and simple formulas, possibly a first order ODE, but nothing more sophisticated than that.
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On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based) Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
A good background in maths helps to reduce the possibility of a systematic error occurring. This is mostly to make sure that there aren't any serious errors in calculation.
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On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based) Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
"I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead."
Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
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Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic.
No, they expect you to be able to do it on your own because you have to interchange a bunch of different equipment manually and some have different features. Plus, you have to adjust flow rate on the fly, so you cant realistically have a tool figuring out the duration because the flow rate changes so much throughout a procedure.
Also, there is the importance of speed. There is a new calculus-based overdose evaluation that requires physicians to do calculus to determine whether an overdose patient needs to be placed on liver transplant list asap, which is the difference between survival and death.
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On July 30 2012 22:58 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based) Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic. "I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead." Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain.
Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
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Algebra is simply put, easy. If that's the cause of so many drop-outs then the US needs to rework parenting as well as the educational programs. Subjects don't only exist to benefit you with knowledge, but they also show future employers that you have the ability to learn and grasp new concepts. Not only that, but finishing school (and placing well) shows you can finish what you started. Employers are looking for people who are interested in sticking around for the long haul and can handle change. If simple math throws you off balance, then you are probably not someone who can make it in the working world.
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On July 30 2012 23:03 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 22:58 Morfildur wrote:On July 30 2012 22:53 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 30 2012 22:45 TheFlash wrote:So what exactly do you use math for?
-trach tube size calculations -acceptable blood loss calculations during surgery or procedures -Calculate FIO2 when air is being used rather than N2O. -deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate (there are a lot of calculations that are important when discussing patient breathing) -quick, on the fly drug dosing for patients (much is weight-based) Are you serious? This sort of stuff isn't done on a computer like every other profession? It almost seems archaic. "I have to go away from this OP for 10 minutes to get out of the OP room, get rid of the clothes, wash hands, etc., then get to a PC, type in the numbers and then return after following all hygene procedures... oh, now the patient is dead." Some things the PC can do for you, for everything else you have to use your brain. Not to mention that the level of algebra this article is attacking is very basic. If you can't do basic algebra you have much bigger problems to care about than how education is being run.
The article mentions parametric equations, which is more advance than the simple calculations that these examples involve, and is on par with first order ODEs, which is about as advance as the medical examples given gets.
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Excerpt from an article published from the University of Utah:
The new method uses eight main “differential equations” – basic calculus equations that describe how changes in one variable affects changes in another variable over time. The equations simulate or “model,” step-by-step, how acetaminophen is metabolized in the liver, including production of NAPQI, a liver-destroying substance.
That makes it the first known “dynamical” model based on real biology – a contrast to the existing “statistical” method for determining how overdose patients fare.
The statistical method – known as the King’s College Criteria (KCC) – estimates who is likely to survive or die from acetaminophen toxicity using correlations between INR and creatinine lab tests and which patients actually did live or die in the past. The King’s College Criteria predict liver failure if INR exceeds 6.4, creatinine exceeds 3.4 and there is confusion, altered consciousness or coma due to liver damage.
The problem, says Adler, is the criteria “look at the statistical relationship between lab test results and patient outcome without understanding what’s happening inside the liver. It’s just statistics.”
The new method “tracks how the liver’s health changes over time,” he says.
The new equations use patients’ measured levels of AST, ALT and INR to estimate when they consumed acetaminophen and how much they took. By also considering creatinine levels, the new method accurately predicts which Tylenol overdose patients will survive with treatment and which will require a liver transplant to avoid death.
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On July 30 2012 23:15 TheFlash wrote:Excerpt from an article published from the University of Utah: Show nested quote +
The new method uses eight main “differential equations” – basic calculus equations that describe how changes in one variable affects changes in another variable over time. The equations simulate or “model,” step-by-step, how acetaminophen is metabolized in the liver, including production of NAPQI, a liver-destroying substance.
That makes it the first known “dynamical” model based on real biology – a contrast to the existing “statistical” method for determining how overdose patients fare.
The statistical method – known as the King’s College Criteria (KCC) – estimates who is likely to survive or die from acetaminophen toxicity using correlations between INR and creatinine lab tests and which patients actually did live or die in the past. The King’s College Criteria predict liver failure if INR exceeds 6.4, creatinine exceeds 3.4 and there is confusion, altered consciousness or coma due to liver damage.
The problem, says Adler, is the criteria “look at the statistical relationship between lab test results and patient outcome without understanding what’s happening inside the liver. It’s just statistics.”
The new method “tracks how the liver’s health changes over time,” he says.
The new equations use patients’ measured levels of AST, ALT and INR to estimate when they consumed acetaminophen and how much they took. By also considering creatinine levels, the new method accurately predicts which Tylenol overdose patients will survive with treatment and which will require a liver transplant to avoid death.
Interesting. But doctors aren't researchers. I don't dispute that medical research requires a lot of math.
When I was referring to first order ODEs, I was refering to this example "-deterimining how long an E oxygen tank will last any given air flow rate".
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It is not a question of will you use it. It is a question of are you able to understand it. Teaching it teaches basic logic and those that fail it either have some brain disability that should get diagnosed and treated, or are just plain lazy or stubborn and are refusing to even try to understand it. Grow a brain, pass highschool, and then forget all about it if you want to. At least you would have shown that your brain is functional.
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Sure algebra above the very fundamentals is almost never used by 95% of all people, but everyone should know the basics, like "you can't solve an equation with two variables, like: x*y=100 or x*5*12=y*4*10", or simple stuff, like "if my steps are 90cm long, and I took 10 000 steps, how far did I travel? Well, 10 000*0.9=x (in meters)", and those things are necessary. But beyond that, to know how to derivate, that i equals the square root of (-1) and what cos ß means, is just overkill for someone who plays SC2, paints houses or works in a store.
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To be honest, I think the real problem is the teachers. Before college, I really went to school because I had to. I'm sure many can relate. Because there's a lack of internal motivation, the most they're going to get out of school is whatever's put in front of them, the teachers.
I remember I didn't have to take algebra in high school because my junior high did a pretty good job to prepare us for high school. Then I remember when I was grading papers for an algebra teacher as an assistant while she was teaching, and I was so glad that I didn't have to go through her teaching method. She was emphasizing the wrong concepts at the wrong time, and I could tell she hated her job. And of course, the papers I was grading reflected that. I think she was the main algebra teacher at the time also. Having said that, my high school is one of the top 100 high schools in America. Just thinking about the rest of the schools in America kind of scares me.
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EPT
