EPTI think if you want to pursue any sort of technical field (engineering, sciences, economics, etc.), then I think you would need algebra. Do you disagree?
Is Algebra Necessary? - Page 3
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Slithe
United States985 Posts
I think if you want to pursue any sort of technical field (engineering, sciences, economics, etc.), then I think you would need algebra. Do you disagree? | ||
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TheRealPaciFist
United States1049 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:14 Slithe wrote: The solution to people failing algebra is not to remove algebra, but to improve our education so that people stop failing it. I am positive that avery large majority of failing students would do just fine if they were given the right environment and tools to learn the subject. On the matter of whether algebra is necessary or not: It's such a basic subject that is required for such a large number of jobs. It is a much safer option to teach algebra to everyone, since so many careers require it. It would be a terrible gamble for someone at the age of 15 to assume that they won't need algebra in the future. Thank you. I agree with some of the points the author of the article makes, but it rubs me the wrong way that he titles his article "Is Algebra Necessary?" when he's really talking about higher levels of math (as he says himself "My question extends beyond algebra and applies more broadly to the usual mathematics sequence, from geometry through calculus."). The prospect of getting rid of algebra in schools makes me want to SCREAM out in frustration, which makes it harder for me to focus on what the article is actually trying to get at. I think all students should be taught some basic logic (which helps you avoid making false conclusions) and statistics (which helps you avoid confusing correlation with causation), and enough math to understand some of the grittier details about statistics, so kids don't feel like there's too much hand waving involved. Also, math is useful because it gets kids problem solving (though I realize math is not the only form of problem solving out there - AP Java would be sexy awesome to get into as many schools as possible). Everything the article stated about how poorly kids do in math in the USA doesn't imply that there's a problem with math. It implies there's a problem with math OR there's a problem with the way it's taught OR there's a problem with the way kids are engaged in schools OR math is the only subject somewhat resistant to grade inflation OR there's a wide distribution in how well kids do in math between different groups (such as socioeconomic classes) that have a more obvious effect in math OR some combination of the above or other explanations. (See how studying logical implication would be useful?) Regardless, I think everyone can agree that the USA needs more fucking money in its education system, and some sort of reform. Heh. /endrant | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CKKQl.jpg) This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operations is simply a human convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
I kind of agree with him, as in, I don't think algebra is necessary, but it's helpful. Like German, French, and woodworking. I do have the impression that those who fail and struggle with algebra in high school are probably just lazy. I knew a girl who was absolutely terrible at maths (70s on tests), after I had tutored her, she was getting straight 90s. It's really not that hard. | ||
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paralleluniverse
4065 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:42 Slithe wrote: I think if you want to pursue any sort of technical field (engineering, sciences, economics, etc.), then I think you would need algebra. Do you disagree? I think if you actually read the OP, you'd know that the answer is: no, I don't disagree. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
That dropout rate would be a lot smaller. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
I use simple algebra nearly every day, whether it be for light theory crafting in games, interest rates in investments, figuring out how to spend my money, or to see what grade I need to achieve a certain score in one of my classes. When driving, I can use it to properly estimate my ETA. And I'm sure there are other things I'm not thinking about, because I do all kinds of simple mental math all the time for various reasons. I could do without, but I guess then a lot more facets of my life would be approximative. And plus I need it in school - even though it's political science, we work with stats a lot, and so you inevitably need algebra when you start digging in there. So I disagree. While it's true that we're not all mathematicians, but basic algebra has some convenient uses, so it can become some sort of mental trick to people, rather than abstract, meaningless numbers that they shove onto a sheet of paper to get a good grade in school. Algebra is part of "wisdom", which is the difference between kids and adults, and it's part of what allows us to make intelligent decisions. Not to mention learning maths in general help with critical thinking, so I would argue there are multiple ways in which algebra can help a person with their finances. And we all deal with money all the time. On the other hand, I have no clue why I was put through the pain of calculus. I never find myself needing to calculate the area below the curve. That said, I actually do value the knowledge regardless. | ||
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Pleiades
United States472 Posts
I was surprised to see how many people fail their high school exit exams on algebra at my school. I'm not saying they're stupid, but maybe they need to go over elementary math. | ||
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Newbistic
China2912 Posts
It's not just mathematics that Algebra classes teach people. There are a number of intangible benefits that so-called "unnecessary" subjects confer. It is a part of what should be a diverse curriculum that challenges kids and stretches their minds. You learn how to think in ways you're not used to, and through that process develop your brain and train yourself to understand difficult concepts and solve problems. Giving up on "difficult" subjects will just brew more problems in the future in the shape of stupider people. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6221 Posts
Edit:: On reflection, go ahead, dumb down the USA, I don't care, less competition in the job market later. | ||
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:39 r.Evo wrote: "You're not here because you'll need whatever you're going to learn for your entire life. You're mostly here to learn HOW to learn certain things - if you get some cool stuff that's helpful down the road then that's a bonus." I've never used any of the 2 years of college math that I've learned in my real life, but when I approach a problem, I do so differently now, because I have an upgraded set of tools at my disposal. If everyone knew calculus, then we wouldn't nearly have as many problems socially, economically, politically, then we do currently. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:46 Jojo131 wrote: Imagine a world, where everyone just stopped making excuses/being lazy... That dropout rate would be a lot smaller. Seriously, this is exactly what it is. It's just people being lazy and claiming things are 'too hard'. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:46 Jojo131 wrote: Imagine a world, where everyone just stopped making excuses/being lazy... That dropout rate would be a lot smaller. Mhmm.. let me put it this way. Judging from the international tests I'm aware of the average German schoolkid is better at stuff like math than the average American. I highly doubt your kids are lazier/less intelligent than ours though. Sure, there are differences in attitude and parenting but I'm pretty sure it would help to take a look at teachers and the general educational system. While you're at it, you might think about paying those guys closer to what they actually deserve. :o Not sure how much teachers make in the US or what qualifications they need for different school types, what I can say however is that the ones over here are also comparatively underpayed. | ||
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Slithe
United States985 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:45 paralleluniverse wrote: I think if you actually read the OP, you'd know that the answer is: no, I don't disagree. Then what part about my statement do you disagree about? The fact that I said a large number of careers require it? Maybe I'm biased because I'm in an engineer, but I think a decent percentage of reputable jobs are technical in nature. | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
But seriously, complaining about basic algebra? x+10=15 x=15-10 x=5 This kind of stuff? IDK what calculus is, but sure trigonometry isn't that useful for the average Joe, but it isn't that hard to learn either, if you just put some time into it. | ||
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ObliviousNA
United States535 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote: I saw this on my facebook recently: This is indicative of how bad the education system is for americans (in terms of math). Personally, I never had too big of a problem with math... and I actually love algebra because of how simple it is and how much application I can get out of it on a day to day basis. I can use algebra for games (especially RPG's), figuring out tips, and all kinds of other stuff. I am curious though, what is it with algebra that people dont get? It is a simple set of rules that you follow, and thats it. You can even guess and check a lot of things if you have the time. EDIT: BTW, the current numbers for that poll: 40: 72k 0: 1.9 million 20: 420k 15: 782k I agree we are much worse at math than we should be, but this is just a silly poll designed to confuse people. Parentheses exists for a reason, and nobody would ever write a problem like that. People don't memorize PEMDA because these problems don't exist in the real world. Anyone who writes obfuscated math like that deserves to be slapped. | ||
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nick00bot
326 Posts
annnyways, I think people just arent willing to apply math in any situation unless they absolutely have to, and when they do they just follow rules given by their teachers instead of logic. like in my stats class I was arguing with my ex over whether a type 1 error is inherently worse than a type 2 error. she insisted that the notes said that type 1 was worse, and I had to stop myself from just screaming " USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE YOU SHEEP" tl;dr: change the culture, not the math | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 29 2012 15:44 paralleluniverse wrote: These are the type of showy and pointless trick questions that I absolutely despise. So what does it prove? That people have failed to learn the order of operations? So what? The order of operation is simply a convention. It's not a law of the universe nor a theorem of mathematics. It's not actually wrong to interpret 1+1*0 as 0 instead of the usual convention that says it's equal to 1. Moreover, in basically all scientific discourse or displaying of equations in real mathematics, grouping symbols like brackets are used. So not knowing the order of operations is not a big deal even if you do math. It proves that a lot of people have very little grasp on following a VERY simple logical procedure. I glanced at the comments and TONS of them said something along the lines of, "anything multiplied by 0 is 0 so it is 0". And we group things to make them easier to read, but the conventions still follow. I mean, its not even close to a trick question. .99999_ = 1 is a trick question. What does it say when close to 60% of the population cant follow PEMDAS? EDIT: Yes, we do use parenthesis to make it easier to read, but that doesnt make it any better. | ||
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