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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On November 02 2011 04:24 Synwave wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:02 mmp wrote:On November 02 2011 03:56 Synwave wrote:
Have to say I'm glad. I'm tired of US tax dollars going to fund things that do nothing for us and yet the countries we help with these dollars are constantly bagging on the US as some great evil country that is out to harm them. Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes.
Palestine has never been a nation, they have however been a consistent harboring spot for global terrorists, not just anti-israel but global terrorism. Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants. Call it a crazy notion or some pro-israel perspective if you want but this has nothing to do with politics regarding the jewish state for me. That is a very hateful statement about a people you do not know or understand. Your statement is equally hateful as your caricature of them. There is a world called reality that apparently 110 member nations of the UN are in touch with. Maybe they're all just belligerent psychotic sympathizers that deserve nothing but contempt. Hardly hateful, its a statement based on what Palestines leaders have directly stated to the world and have repeatedly done through attacks and support. I suppose Hammas is some figment of my imagination that I invented so that I could have a biased perspective...oh wait, they are real. Perhaps you should look into exactly what Palestines leaders have stated regarding their neighbors and what the Hammas objectives are.
Please tell us what Hammas objectives are. Hammes declared in the previous year they will gladly accept the 1967 border and recognize Israel - which is a big step further. You're making it sound like Hammas just hate the entire planet, most of them just want to live free in their country.
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On November 02 2011 04:08 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:47 Muki wrote:On November 02 2011 03:37 bonse wrote:![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? Well, very easy. It never happened! This series of "maps" is just distorted history. There never was in history a Palestinian state, big or small. Before WW1 the territory was held by the Turks. Since WW1 until 1948 the territory (including the East Bank of the Jordan) was held by the British with the mandate to create a national home for the Jewish people. From 1948 until 1967, Gaza was held by Egypt and the West Bank (of the river Jordan) was held by Jordan (the country). The only time when Palestine started to hold territories was after the Oslo accords, when Israel and the Palestinians agreed to establish in time a Palestinian state but only through bilateral negotiations. It was specifically agreed that no side would take unilateral actions (such as annexation by Israel or seeking independence by the Palestinians). This clause the Palestinians are breaking now by forcing recognition by the UN while refusing to negotiate, and because of this US and Israel are upset. A more accurate series of maps: ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mPOHVS4Frjw/TXev_pw0pBI/AAAAAAAAD4I/T2nWfRAv2dA/s1600/Israeli+land+concessions.jpg) You see, it's Israel who is getting smaller and smaller. To put things in perspective, Israel and its enemies: ![[image loading]](http://www.mefacts.com/cache/html/religion/11177_files/Arab-Countries.gif) See also a more detailed explanation of the maps. Pre 1948 maps missing? Where's the legitimacy in holding those lands against the will of it's natives? Also, you can't victimise Israel just because it has so many hostile states surrounding it, because many Gulf states have stayed out of the conflict for a long time now, and Israel has the US to balance any oil money poured into the Palestinian case anyway. As I said, prior to 1948 the territories were held by the British. Most of the inhabitants are Jews. Druze, Christians and other minorities know that they would be driven out or killed under muslim rule. The vast majority of Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship are adamant that in no way they want Palestinian rule. So, what do you mean "against the will of it's natives"? The whole Palestinian state issue is an artificial one created to defeat Israel.
No, it's a real issue that Israel and the USA are is uncomfortable with. Also people tend to forget that the generation that started the conflict has long died out and their grandchildren inherited a completely f'ed up situation and they can't deal with it either.
There isn't even a real solution applicable today - in my opinion the radical Zionists during 1900-1967 should be held responsible for this instead of being held up as heroes, their actions are responsible for almost every contemporary antisemite wave, which is also directed against regular jews who have nothing to do with the conflict. It's became a never ending circle, but fabricating evidence is surely not going to help, in fact it's going to fuel even more hate directed toward Israel's actions.
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On November 02 2011 04:13 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:08 bonse wrote:On November 02 2011 03:47 Muki wrote:On November 02 2011 03:37 bonse wrote:holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? Well, very easy. It never happened! This series of "maps" is just distorted history. There never was in history a Palestinian state, big or small. Before WW1 the territory was held by the Turks. Since WW1 until 1948 the territory (including the East Bank of the Jordan) was held by the British with the mandate to create a national home for the Jewish people. From 1948 until 1967, Gaza was held by Egypt and the West Bank (of the river Jordan) was held by Jordan (the country). The only time when Palestine started to hold territories was after the Oslo accords, when Israel and the Palestinians agreed to establish in time a Palestinian state but only through bilateral negotiations. It was specifically agreed that no side would take unilateral actions (such as annexation by Israel or seeking independence by the Palestinians). This clause the Palestinians are breaking now by forcing recognition by the UN while refusing to negotiate, and because of this US and Israel are upset. A more accurate series of maps: You see, it's Israel who is getting smaller and smaller. To put things in perspective, Israel and its enemies: See also a more detailed explanation of the maps. Pre 1948 maps missing? Where's the legitimacy in holding those lands against the will of it's natives? Also, you can't victimise Israel just because it has so many hostile states surrounding it, because many Gulf states have stayed out of the conflict for a long time now, and Israel has the US to balance any oil money poured into the Palestinian case anyway. As I said, prior to 1948 the territories were held by the British.
Most of the inhabitants are Jews. Druze, Christians and other minorities know that they would be driven out or killed under muslim rule. The vast majority of Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship are adamant that in no way they want Palestinian rule. So, what do you mean "against the will of it's natives"? The whole Palestinian state issue is an artificial one created to defeat Israel. The US money is only a very small part of Israel GDP. It is actually the US and EU pouring money in Palestine, not the Muslim states (they only do propaganda). And I really mean pouring: between 2000 and 2009 they got more then 7.2 billion dollars, being the most aided group of people on the face of the earth per person( each palestinian receives 9 times more then a Sudanese, 39 times more than a person from Congo ) Where did you learned that ? That's absolutly wrong. Muslim are not all murderers, I think you should stop spouting nonsense and think a little. Jews wanted to create a country in this specific place because of their history. Israel was the cure to the jews' disease : a people without a country. That's all, stop trying to say they did it to respond to the muslim's rules that would have killed them otherwise, it's silly. Also, Duze Jews and Christians were not the "most of the inhabitants", they were a little minority prior to WW2.
Most of the Jews don't come from the mideast, nevermind Canaan, so it's not a matter of "history". Additionally, it is a part of Jewish religion (like other ancient Semitic pagan religions like Ashurism) for their patron god to 'give' them their land. Fundamentalist Jews, though most are not possibly descended from the Mideast, nevermind the ancient Hebrews, in any case believe this belief.
Secondly, Israel was formed because of religious fanatics from Europe murdering and terrorizing anyone who didn't support their cause, including other Jews, until the Brits got fed up and left.
Judaism is a religion, not some culture/nationality. That doesn't mandate it should have some country. Judaism was a minor ancient pagan religion that wasn't completely phased out because of the lifeline of Christianity filling its scripture with the Tanakh (Old Testament). Judaism did however have proselytism, which is why it exists in Europe and many other places. However, since it was only a minor ancient religion at best, and the proselytism was not too great, this is why no country was majority Jewish until the formation of Israel and the mass immigration.
Otherwise, I agree with you, especially the Muslim's rules part. Before British evacuation, Arab Jews were fine. During the centuries of the united caliphate, the fragmentation into many states, the Il-Khanid conquests, and the Turkish empire, the Jewish minority was generally fine. Sure, this was largely influenced by the fact that racially/historically they were the same as everyone else around them, and culturally and linguistically were very similar and those who spoke Arabic were practically the same. But when religious extremists pour in from far off in the north west, things get a bit dicey.
I have never heard of this Druze and Christian being most of the inhabitants. Interesting education they have in Israel.
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On November 02 2011 04:28 3772 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:24 Synwave wrote:On November 02 2011 04:02 mmp wrote:On November 02 2011 03:56 Synwave wrote:
Have to say I'm glad. I'm tired of US tax dollars going to fund things that do nothing for us and yet the countries we help with these dollars are constantly bagging on the US as some great evil country that is out to harm them. Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes.
Palestine has never been a nation, they have however been a consistent harboring spot for global terrorists, not just anti-israel but global terrorism. Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants. Call it a crazy notion or some pro-israel perspective if you want but this has nothing to do with politics regarding the jewish state for me. That is a very hateful statement about a people you do not know or understand. Your statement is equally hateful as your caricature of them. There is a world called reality that apparently 110 member nations of the UN are in touch with. Maybe they're all just belligerent psychotic sympathizers that deserve nothing but contempt. Hardly hateful, its a statement based on what Palestines leaders have directly stated to the world and have repeatedly done through attacks and support. I suppose Hammas is some figment of my imagination that I invented so that I could have a biased perspective...oh wait, they are real. Perhaps you should look into exactly what Palestines leaders have stated regarding their neighbors and what the Hammas objectives are. You realize that most of those people just want to live a peaceful life and raise their kids without someone walling them in (lol) and bombing them, right? Just because (some) leaders are retarded everyone living there shouldn't suffer.
I do and I should clarify, I regularly support through donations groups that help people in need. I do not support groups that help governments with destructive policies. Ive donated to helping build schools in Afghanistan directly to small organizations that go and build them. I dont however support groups that carte blanche give funding to the Afghanistan government because it often goes towards Taliban who have a destructive and tyrannical outlook. Im all for helping the palestinian people directly but I am completely against helping their government in any way specifically because of their leaders. I hope that clears it up a bit.
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On November 02 2011 00:50 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. Israel has quite the lobby power in the US. As a result, the US administration is generally pro-Israel. The US stood behind Israel pretty much from its inception. There's a reason why the neighboring Arab states have been unable to destroy Israel.
To quote a post from redditIn the 1960s, the American Zionist Council was found to be engaged in massive violations of FARA by being funded by and acting on behalf of Israel and was ordered by Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy to register as a foreign agent. The DOJ reversed those enforcement efforts under pressure from both the Israel lobby and the Johnson administration during its reelection bid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Agents_Registration_Act
On November 02 2011 01:11 RageBot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? Because... up until 1967, although the land was previously called Palestine (by the othmanians and the British), there were no real Palestinians, or a Palestinian state. The green territory that you see on the second from the left picture, is the territory that was given to the arabs by the UN, and the white to the jews, the jews were happy with what they got, however, the arabs did not, and a day after Israel declared independance, Egypt, Syria, Lebannon and Jordan attacked Israel. And lost. And so, Israel conquered territory from all of them and got to the second from right picture, now, up to this point, there was still no Palestinian pepole or a Palestinian state. In 1967, once again, the arab states planned to attack Israel, however, this time Israel launched a preemptive counterattack, and conquered territory from all of these countries (the lands now known as the gaza strip and the west bank were owned by Egypt and Jordan, respectively), not only that, but Israel also conquered the Sinai peninsula (a territory twice as big as today's Israel), only to give it back to Egypt for a peace agreement. It is pretty much at this point that the "Palestinians" were created as a distinct group, up until than they were just arabs who lived on the territory known as Palestine. Now, this is the size of Israel: http://www.mapsofworld.com/israel/maps/israel-location-map.jpgAnd if you want to read more about Israel's history, you can do so here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_Warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_WarNow, I don't think that the governmant should keep most of the territory conquered, however, we just can't risk having terrorists getting even closer to our cities.
I don't know why and whether you did it knowingly and with deliberation or not, but even though a big chunk of your information is helpful, your post is still inaccurate and incomplete.
First of all the land was under British mandate, but the overwhelming majority of the people living there were the very Arabs we're calling Palestinians now. To say that there 'were no real Palestinians' is a bit misleading.
What happaned is that Zionist Jews took renewed interest in the land after WW2.
They lobbied the UK (just like they're lobbying the U.S. now) to hand control over to them, while simultaneously buying large chunks of that land by themselves and rallying fellow Jews to settle there, beginning to shift the demographics. As we can see (the Jewish lobby and) politicians were no different then than they are now, as the initiative proved successful enough to lead to the creation of an Israeli state under the guise of solving "the Jewish problem" (centuries of persecution) out of humanitarian concerns.
All of that is of course within their right, but the circumstances leading up to it and resulting from it shouldn't be swept under the rug.
Just to reiterate, one of those circumstances was that the native population was largely Arabic, but in the time leading up to and especially after the establishment of an Israeli state the demographic shifted dramatically due to the influx of hundreds of thousands of Jews from all over the world. Buhhy [1][2] even claimed that Britain itself directly worked to move them there, which I can't comment on, because I hadn't heard of that detail before.
I think Jews also moved to drive out Arab civillians, specifically in Jerusalem, though I don't remember the full details of that either.
Secondly, some people talked about military conflicts which were lost by the Arabs as reason that the distribution of land looks like it does now. It is important to keep in mind that the Six-Day War was initiated by a preemptive strike by Israel and not by the Arabs, even though provocation in the form of Arab troop movement existed. You mentioned it yourself. Judging what might or might not have happened otherwise is not possible (alternate history can't be observed), and we are left with the reality that Israel started that war.
And lastly, the influx of Jewish settlers not just into Israel, but progressively into the remaining Palestinian land, never stopped and continues to displace Palestinians off their own land, outside the borders of Israel, against international law, to this day and there is no end in sight.
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Can someone inform me on this subject? Why some people are 'anti-Israel' and some are 'pro-Israel'
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On November 02 2011 03:56 Synwave wrote:
Have to say I'm glad. I'm tired of US tax dollars going to fund things that do nothing for us and yet the countries we help with these dollars are constantly bagging on the US as some great evil country that is out to harm them. Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes.
Palestine has never been a nation, they have however been a consistent harboring spot for global terrorists, not just anti-israel but global terrorism. Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants. Call it a crazy notion or some pro-israel perspective if you want but this has nothing to do with politics regarding the jewish state for me.
this is completely misguided
" Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes."
its not like this. its corporations guiding political involvement (taxpayer money) for the sake of the corporations.
so you give a bum some money you stole from your own honest taxpayers and tell him he is living under Your Law now and you go about wrecking your own selfish rule over him (if he fights back than you carpetbomb him and report it to the rest of the world as counter-terrorism). and actually the money you gave the bum finds its way back into your pocket (or actually never leaves it) either way
"Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants."
the issue here is not being "pro terrorist" or "pro radical palestine governments"
the issue here is an EXTREMELY clear-cut and long-lasting (growing) case of systematic rape of human rights of the palestinian people, who are BTW now living in shacks with no clean water, and treated as prisoners who are confined to only certain districts, because they were chased out of their own houses by gunpoint (and of course executed/raped if they resisted)
so yes you can walk on by the political bullshit as much as you want, but still recognise and support the suffering of the common palestinian families.
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On the one hand, there's this whole clustersexualintercourse that the past 12 and a half pages were about.
On the other hand, the U.S. has another $60 million to reinvest in politician's wallets the economy!
Hooray.
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On November 02 2011 04:52 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:56 Synwave wrote:
Have to say I'm glad. I'm tired of US tax dollars going to fund things that do nothing for us and yet the countries we help with these dollars are constantly bagging on the US as some great evil country that is out to harm them. Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes.
Palestine has never been a nation, they have however been a consistent harboring spot for global terrorists, not just anti-israel but global terrorism. Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants. Call it a crazy notion or some pro-israel perspective if you want but this has nothing to do with politics regarding the jewish state for me. this is completely misguided " Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes." its not like this. its corporations guiding political involvement (taxpayer money) for the sake of the corporations. so you give a bum some money you stole from your own honest taxpayers and tell him he is living under Your Law now and you go about wrecking your own selfish rule over him (if he fights back than you carpetbomb him and report it to the rest of the world as counter-terrorism). and actually the money you gave the bum finds its way back into your pocket (or actually never leaves it) either way "Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants." the issue here is not being "pro terrorist" or "pro radical palestine governments" the issue here is an EXTREMELY clear-cut and long-lasting (growing) case of systematic rape of human rights of the palestinian people, who are BTW now living in shacks with no clean water, and treated as prisoners who are confined to only certain districts, because they were chased out of their own houses by gunpoint (and of course executed/raped if they resisted) so yes you can walk on by the political bullshit as much as you want, but still recognise and support the suffering of the common palestinian families.
So assuming what you say is true, which is a LARGE stretch... Why should it solely fall on Israel to find homes for these refuges. There are 5 neighboring countries, all of whom have considerably more territory than Israel, yet none of them are willing to give some land to the Palestinians? They are refuges, they fled their homes when the Arab nations declared war on Israel, while the Jews stood and fought. They assumed they would be able to return to their homes after the Jews were eradicated. However, the Jewish settlers won the war. I don't really see what the dilemma is here. I'm not condoning everything Israel does, because it would be absurd to say they haven't committed wrongs in their handling of the situation. But if you look at the history of the region, the Palestinians have no legitimate claim to land in Israel anymore.
I've BEEN to Israel, and from what you've written it is painfully obvious you never have, you only spout what you hear on the news. There are Palestinians living peacefully along side Jews in Israel. They don't live in shacks, treated as prisoners. I can't even take this thread seriously with the sheer amount of misinformation and for lack of a better term, BS flying around.
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On November 02 2011 05:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:52 FFGenerations wrote:On November 02 2011 03:56 Synwave wrote:
Have to say I'm glad. I'm tired of US tax dollars going to fund things that do nothing for us and yet the countries we help with these dollars are constantly bagging on the US as some great evil country that is out to harm them. Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes.
Palestine has never been a nation, they have however been a consistent harboring spot for global terrorists, not just anti-israel but global terrorism. Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants. Call it a crazy notion or some pro-israel perspective if you want but this has nothing to do with politics regarding the jewish state for me. this is completely misguided " Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes." its not like this. its corporations guiding political involvement (taxpayer money) for the sake of the corporations. so you give a bum some money you stole from your own honest taxpayers and tell him he is living under Your Law now and you go about wrecking your own selfish rule over him (if he fights back than you carpetbomb him and report it to the rest of the world as counter-terrorism). and actually the money you gave the bum finds its way back into your pocket (or actually never leaves it) either way "Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants." the issue here is not being "pro terrorist" or "pro radical palestine governments" the issue here is an EXTREMELY clear-cut and long-lasting (growing) case of systematic rape of human rights of the palestinian people, who are BTW now living in shacks with no clean water, and treated as prisoners who are confined to only certain districts, because they were chased out of their own houses by gunpoint (and of course executed/raped if they resisted) so yes you can walk on by the political bullshit as much as you want, but still recognise and support the suffering of the common palestinian families. So assuming what you say is true, which is a LARGE stretch... Why should it solely fall on Israel to find homes for these refuges. There are 5 neighboring countries, all of whom have considerably more territory than Israel, yet none of them are willing to give some land to the Palestinians? They are refuges, they fled their homes when the Arab nations declared war on Israel, while the Jews stood and fought. They assumed they would be able to return to their homes after the Jews were eradicated. However, the Jewish settlers won the war. I don't really see what the dilemma is here. I'm not condoning everything Israel does, because it would be absurd to say they haven't committed wrongs in their handling of the situation. But if you look at the history of the region, the Palestinians have no legitimate claim to land in Israel anymore.
If you look at it that way, everyone has a legitimate claim everywhere if they can wipe out the inhabitants of the area. In the Palestinians' case, admitting defeat is not an option. Also if you look at demographics, the outcome of the conflict cannot nearly be determined yet, although Israel has the upper and through US support and high tech military, for now.
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Awesome news. Huge huge props to UNESCO for this, they went for it even though they would lose funding. It shows that there are actually good people who can make good changes left in this world.
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I don't even know any more. Why is a non-existent nation being funded? Why did the US take such an extreme stance on this? Can we trust Palestine after the incident in the Gaza strip? Is Israel full of anti-Palestinian hatred? Was there EVER a Palestinian state? Was Israel wrongly created? There's just too much shit going on down there for me to make a good call on anything, let alone form an opinion I can confidently belive in and choose a side in that political clusterfuck of an oil-flooded region.
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On November 02 2011 04:51 enzym wrote:
Secondly, some people talked about military conflicts which were lost by the Arabs as reason that the distribution of land looks like it does now. It is important to keep in mind that the Six-Day War was initiated by a preemptive strike by Israel and not by the Arabs, even though provocation in the form of Arab troop movement existed. You mentioned it yourself. Judging what might or might not have happened otherwise is not possible (alternate history can't be observed), and we are left with the reality that Israel started that war.
I admit not being as informed as you are, but 3 countries moving 70% of their forces to surround Israel is not just a "minor provocation", and taking this matter lightly could've ended in Israel's utter destruction. I don't think any country would've acted differently given the circumstances.
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On November 02 2011 05:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 04:52 FFGenerations wrote:On November 02 2011 03:56 Synwave wrote:
Have to say I'm glad. I'm tired of US tax dollars going to fund things that do nothing for us and yet the countries we help with these dollars are constantly bagging on the US as some great evil country that is out to harm them. Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes.
Palestine has never been a nation, they have however been a consistent harboring spot for global terrorists, not just anti-israel but global terrorism. Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants. Call it a crazy notion or some pro-israel perspective if you want but this has nothing to do with politics regarding the jewish state for me. this is completely misguided " Its like giving money to a bum on the street and before your even half a block away he is yelling about how your evil corrupt and the cause of all his woes." its not like this. its corporations guiding political involvement (taxpayer money) for the sake of the corporations. so you give a bum some money you stole from your own honest taxpayers and tell him he is living under Your Law now and you go about wrecking your own selfish rule over him (if he fights back than you carpetbomb him and report it to the rest of the world as counter-terrorism). and actually the money you gave the bum finds its way back into your pocket (or actually never leaves it) either way "Their stance is not one of peace but the complete destruction down to the women and children of their neighbors. I don't care who your neighbors are, thats a psychotic political stance that deserves nothing but contempt. I for one am not keen on helping fund any organization that says they need to protect a non-nation that actively and viciously attacks other countries citizens who are neither soldiers nor combatants." the issue here is not being "pro terrorist" or "pro radical palestine governments" the issue here is an EXTREMELY clear-cut and long-lasting (growing) case of systematic rape of human rights of the palestinian people, who are BTW now living in shacks with no clean water, and treated as prisoners who are confined to only certain districts, because they were chased out of their own houses by gunpoint (and of course executed/raped if they resisted) so yes you can walk on by the political bullshit as much as you want, but still recognise and support the suffering of the common palestinian families. So assuming what you say is true, which is a LARGE stretch... Why should it solely fall on Israel to find homes for these refuges. There are 5 neighboring countries, all of whom have considerably more territory than Israel, yet none of them are willing to give some land to the Palestinians? They are refuges, they fled their homes when the Arab nations declared war on Israel, while the Jews stood and fought. They assumed they would be able to return to their homes after the Jews were eradicated. However, the Jewish settlers won the war. I don't really see what the dilemma is here. I'm not condoning everything Israel does, because it would be absurd to say they haven't committed wrongs in their handling of the situation. But if you look at the history of the region, the Palestinians have no legitimate claim to land in Israel anymore. I've BEEN to Israel, and from what you've written it is painfully obvious you never have, you only spout what you hear on the news. There are Palestinians living peacefully along side Jews in Israel. They don't live in shacks, treated as prisoners. I can't even take this thread seriously with the sheer amount of misinformation and for lack of a better term, BS flying around.
a) which bit is a LARGE stretch of the imagination? i dont think anything i said was (maybe you meant about them losing their homes at gunpoint etc? coz the other thing i wrote was just common sense reply to that other guy saying something silly
b) i didnt say it solely falls on Israel, i didnt say anything whatsoever about finding homes, or territory or anything afaik
c) i dont read/watch the news, ive read a bit of wiki , ive read some of the threads here and there on tlnet, and ive got a friend who introduced me to the subject by describing her visit to palestine (she had to stand infront of a palestinian shopkeeper as israeli gun-men came in and smashed up the shop, as they werent allowed to attack her)
so i think you are not replying to me specifically but just throwing some thoughts out there for others to reply to, which is fine
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about he Palestinian vs Israel shitfest both sides can be trialled and found guilty of horrible crimes and should be. but that won't happen till the conflict is over. and if we look at history there haven been conflicts for more then 2000 years in that area. not a single reason imaginable why it shouldn't continue to be this way for at least another 2000 years. So i am not really interested in who did/said/shot/raped/bombed what for what reason.
The thing that interest me most is that American law and the possible consequences of it. Not really familiar with international politics but haven't they created a precedent for other official UN organizations to recognize Palestinia? Come one, come all sense. and how likely is it that the other mentioned UN organs will do that.
cant imagine the US getting out of WHO for example
any can make an educated guess on that?
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On November 02 2011 05:12 Bleak wrote:
Awesome news. Huge huge props to UNESCO for this, they went for it even though they would lose funding. It shows that there are actually good people who can make good changes left in this world.
They did the ideological thing, not the practical thing.
They lost 20% of their funding just so they can have a bunch of cry babies on board. Hardly an improvement.
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On November 02 2011 05:35 henkel wrote:
about he Palestinian vs Israel shitfest both sides can be trialled and found guilty of horrible crimes and should be. but that won't happen till the conflict is over. and if we look at history there haven been conflicts for more then 2000 years in that area. not a single reason imaginable why it shouldn't continue to be this way for at least another 2000 years. So i am not really interested in who did/said/shot/raped/bombed what for what reason.
The thing that interest me most is that American law and the possible consequences of it. Not really familiar with international politics but haven't they created a precedent for other official UN organizations to recognize Palestinia? Come one, come all sense. and how likely is it that the other mentioned UN organs will do that.
cant imagine the US getting out of WHO for example
any can make an educated guess on that?
Did you just watch the number of palestinians death in comparaison with the number of israelis death since 1967 ? Please, don't try to say both party are equally guilty of "horrible crimes".
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On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense?
Too simplistic. Palestine was a British governed Mandate, it was a state... niether of the two that we speak of today existed prior to the 1948 partition plane. The land was split 51/49 Jewish/Arab although the Jewish population was about 22% of the total. The Arabs didn't accept the partition, launched a war... Israel's victory enlarged its original state while the Arab Palestinians lost a large clump (left with only about 22% which was governed by Egypt and TransJordan). These two areas were later conquerored through the 1967 Six Day War... the United States' support has grown throughout the years and Israel became an integral Cold War ally against Soviet Influenced forces of the Arab World. While the US-Israeli relationship benefits both parties (Israel more than the US), there is also some guilt regarding the events of the Holocaust and the mindset it has created amongst Israelis and most Jews. Take into account the countless wars between the Arabs and Israelis, and you shouldn't be surprised at how Israeli society and perspective has been shaped. The same goes to the Palestinians, although their national movement is younger and some argue was only born forth from Israel's military victory of 1967... if not, the Palestinian identity would have been diluted and forged with Jordanian and Egyptian concepts of Identity.
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EPT
