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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
On November 02 2011 01:36 bonifaceviii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:33 nalgene wrote:
Nope. It's not a problem. Israel beat those sand people/terrorists with good tactics. ![[image loading]](http://www.wryandginger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/sand-people-tuskenraider.jpg) ? User was temp banned for this post.
why did this guy get banned when he was simply making light of a blatant racist, ie being casually good-humoured?
mods you really need to read threads before twitch-banning people who dont deserve it (from what i can tell)
if you arent reading a thread then dont try to moderate it, or you'll get things wrong
when one guy calls a group of people "sand people terrorists" and another guy replies with a silly picture to make light of what was said, you shouldnt be banning the picture guy should you?
the palestinian people were ran out of their own homes and shops at gun-point one by one, all their possessions confiscated or destroyed or just taken by whoever was waving the gun at that time. palestinian families fled from homes theyd lived in all their lives and brought their children up in, at the risk of execution or beating or rape, then israeli families took them over.
of course everyone agrees that hamas/terrorist fundementalists are fuckin crazy nutfucks who are extremely problematic
but the issue that us random people across the world care about is the REAL common people of palestine who have been/are being figuratively shat on and made to walk the gangplank, leaving everything they own to live in shacks, they dont even have access to the dead sea, hundreds upon hundreds of border patrols keep them locked away into their little prison that is what is left of their society and land , since israeli settlers/families have taken over their houses and shops and stolen everything they have owned and built and earnt
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On November 02 2011 03:22 HackBenjamin wrote:
I think both sides should just take an eraser to these stupid borders they draw on the paper maps and adopt a live and let live policy. Why won't this work?
Because that's not even remotely how international politics work. Borders define autonomy and jurisdiction of a state. Remove them, and you'll just have factionalism within an undefined territory.
Sure, 'live and let live' would be a thing, but you're naive to think that would take hold at an international, or even domestic level.
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On November 02 2011 03:29 Suvorov wrote:
Take off the blindfold mate. It's simply because Canada can't afford on any level to face off against the US. Not economically, not politically and certainly not on the military either. Not that the US wants to have to deal with any trouble north of its border...so there's plenty of room, support and encouragement for puppets like Mr.Harper.
What the fuck is this? Do you have numbers to back up any of those reasons why Canada can't "afford" to go against the US? Aside from the fact that US troops are stretched pretty thin at the moment...and putting aside the economic woes they are currently experiencing.. and politically?
Not that I'm trying to ignite a Canada vs US debate AT ALL (So don't) but don't just spit out random bullshit when you haven't got your information straight.
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On November 02 2011 03:09 Batdad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:00 mdb wrote:
I can understand USA reasons, but Germany and Canada? Why vote against Palestine? Probably depends who you ask. Some reasonable cynics would say that Canada voted against it for political reasons even though popular support here likely slightly favors the Palestinians. Other less reasonable cynics would probably blame some very anti-semitic fallacy like the rich Jews controlling funding for the governing party or some other garbage like that. I would say that we voted against it because we believe that Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself, and therefore deserves and requires a seat at the table in a negotiation over a two-state solution. We will therefore vote against any motion that has an intended consequence of furthering the movement to unilaterally declare (ie. without Israel) a Palestinian state.
Anti-semitic fallacy? I'm sorry, but that is in fact reality. There's no reason why these Western powers (especially America) would be against a Palestinian state other than campaign contributions from wealthy Jews and support from Jewish voters. Israel doesn't even stand for American principles; it never has. The star of David is on their flag. They've violated international law by building settlements for 500,000 Jews in Palestinian territory. Why don't any of these Western powers give a shit about that? Why don't any of them give a shit about the human rights violations being committed against the Palestinians? There's no incentive for them to, that's why. In fact, there is a DISincentive because supporting the Palestinians in any way will cause one to lose the support of the Jews.
For the record, I am completely open and accepting to the Jewish people. I hate Israel, not the Jews.
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These thread are useless. You just cannot talk with a pro Israeli guy, they are blind with their rage.
Like those 3 videos showing palestinian television forging their kids into hating Israel : it's normal, all countries in war have done that. French done it against germany prior to the first world war and I will tell you something, as a teacher myself, I had the opportunity to give lessons to jews kids in some parts of Paris, they all had their Israeli flag and Israeli army pencil case and bags.
There are a shit tons of kids in France who goes to Israel to make their fucking military service, and the worste is that they can just keep their french nationality...
Israel are also forging their kids into youngsters that would do anything for their country.
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On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis?
Unquestionably serving the interests of Israel.
Well, very easy. It never happened! This series of "maps" is just distorted history.
There never was in history a Palestinian state, big or small.
Before WW1 the territory was held by the Turks.
Since WW1 until 1948 the territory (including the East Bank of the Jordan) was held by the British with the mandate to create a national home for the Jewish people.
From 1948 until 1967, Gaza was held by Egypt and the West Bank (of the river Jordan) was held by Jordan (the country).
Ah, so when religious fanatics come from northern/eastern Europe and murder and terrorize and deport until the British get so fed up with so much terrorism and leave, that's fine and dandy? Interesting.
What the fuck is this? Do you have numbers to back up any of those reasons why Canada can't "afford" to go against the US? Aside from the fact that US troops are stretched pretty thin at the moment...and putting aside the economic woes they are currently experiencing.. and politically?
I don't think there's a country as dependent on another as Canada is dependent on the US. It's absurd. But as a result, the US has a tight leash on you guys. You follow Uncle Sam's lead. That's not something I like, but that's the way it is. In case of war, if you think the Canadian military will stand much a chance against the American one, well, I don't know what to say to that, and in war, the US sometimes prefers total war. So a war will not only disband the Canadian military, it will also put Canada in the third-world.
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On November 02 2011 03:14 mordk wrote:
What I fail to understand in this whole thing is why the UN (or any other organization) just sort of said 'alright people of Israel, this shall be your land'.
I truly do not understand this. Even if Palestine wasn't actually a nation, why do these people have the right to just assign these lands to whomever they wished?. Maybe the arabs were really disorganized, working under a system different from a nation system, but as far as I can tell those were still their lands. Please enlighten me here I seriously don't understand this. I have asked some jewish friends and gotten no real answers.
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i dont know , but "physically" it happens as literally as you think it might: israeli men - buddies or military gangs - with guns break down a house door or stroll into a shop, smash everything up and intimidate the owner/dweller, take what they want, scream at the owner/family until they run out into the street, then they start living there instead
this is why it is considered a "takeover" of land and why everything that goes on there is labelled massive abuse of human rights again and again
our governments/corporations (political media) do a top class job of only covering information/stories that builds support for what benefits those particular individuals in power
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On November 02 2011 03:33 DMBJonesy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:24 Suvorov wrote:
Gotta love when Nash pulls out the 'anti-semitic' card. As Benjamin said, today there's nothing you can say about Israel's wrongdoings because you're anti-semitic - a term which funny enough, is already outdated and wrongly misused. We're sorry Nash but, you gotta understand the clear-cut difference between criticizing the actions of the country 'Israel' and criticizing the actions of every single jewish person on the planet. Would do you good to start there.
And, responding to the logic of one of our pro-israel buddies above... here's a fun example:
So Mexicans enter the US illegally.
The US doesn't like it very much, they start a war against them.
The Mexicans win the war with Russian + European support
The Mexicans take over more territory and claim it was on self-defense
The Mexicans slowly but steadily start expanding and reclaiming more territory for themselves
The US can't do shit because Russia and Europe support the Mexicans
The US asks for international support but Russia and Europe shut it down
So, the real question is - how come these arabs from the land thus known as Palestine were wrong by demanding part of their lands be given to someone other than them?
And, let's not forget - the only reason Israel has won its wars against the other arab countries is because of the massive economic/military US support it gets.
Hypocrisy detected What an awful analogy, and regarding your last comment that Israel won its wars because of massive USA support, read the thread first; please. Its clearly stated plenty of times that the Israelis didn't receive MASSIVE SUPPORT from the US in the 1948 conflict...
They did so in the 1948 conflict, however since the 60's they have enjoyed both political and military support from the US. They are basically untouchable and can currently do whatever they want without any consequences. If it wasn't for US support, all those resolutions[1] against Israel would have passed, Israel would have become completely isolated in the world just like South Africa was. When the US stopped supporting South Africa (which they were the last supporters of just like Israel) it didn't take long for change to happen. All of this would have happened a long time ago in Israel if US had stopped supporting them, Israel would have had to chose between changing their policy or losing all trade/relations with the rest of the world.
[1] http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html
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It was a stupid vote to begin with, since it only served as a backdoor to postponing the peace negotiations. And thats why the timing was stupid seeing as the peace negotiations will now be forgotten, even though its the thing that matters the most. It also politicizes UNESCO which is bad and will stop it from working as intended.
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Even if the US has good ties with Israel, it should never have a LAW against Israel's enemies... that's just absurd...
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On November 02 2011 03:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 02:58 Krehlmar wrote:On November 02 2011 02:52 SupLilSon wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 Kupon3ss wrote:
Well this isn't surprising, as appealing to the Jewish community earns American politicians an insane amount of votes and funding while being fair to Palestine earns nothing for elections. What people who aren't Jewish don't realize is that the US and Israel represent pretty much the only two countries where Jews can live without being faced with severe persecution. The amount of media bias against Israel is insane. There used to be large Jewish populations in Europe and Arab nations until they were all forced out (Holocaust anyone?...) Look at the history and you will see who kicked who out.... Ok I am sorry if a moderator feels I am to hard here, but this must be the most retarded post I've ever read in a derailing of a topic. Media bias means there has to be an injustice, problem is we have empiric kognitive PROOF of Israel breaking INTERNATIONAL LAW on a DAILY BASIS. There is no injustice of showing this from the media. What the heck are you talking about persecution? It's worse being a muslim than it is to be a jew in europa, in asia hardly anybody cares. There were never "large" jewish populations since they've never even represented a 1% of the worlds population, not even a 0.1% (google if you don't believe me). Nor did the holocaust drive jews from the arab nations or half of europa... Agh I just can't understand how you can speak about 60 year old happenings as if they should somehow effect the current day situation or how we view justice and law?
The world is never this black and white people, please stop arguing in ultimatums. On November 02 2011 02:56 Mayd wrote:
The land belongs to Israel. Has always belonged.
"GOD" IS NOT A REALESTATE MERCHANT.
Your faith can not outweigh my reality. Also I'd like a moderator to check IP:s on some of these accounts, 5-20 post-accounts from different countries defending Israel out of the blue with a perspective heavily tilted towards pro-israel smells fishy. Honestly, I don't know how to respond to this... as far as I can tell you are just simply ignoring historical fact. There used to be relatively large and healthy populations of Jews in Europe and the Middle East. Now Jews have been forced into living almost exclusively either in the US or Israel. I have to go to class now but when I'm out I will provide numbers to back this up.
^ The above post is correct. Of the top ten countries by Jewish population in 1990, 7 were in Europe. In 2005, only 5 are, with a huge swing towards the United States, which currently boasts the largest Jewish population in the world.
Source
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 02 2011 02:52 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:47 Kupon3ss wrote:
Well this isn't surprising, as appealing to the Jewish community earns American politicians an insane amount of votes and funding while being fair to Palestine earns nothing for elections. What people who aren't Jewish don't realize is that the US and Israel represent pretty much the only two countries where Jews can live without being faced with severe persecution. The amount of media bias against Israel is insane. There used to be large Jewish populations in Europe and Arab nations until they were all forced out (Holocaust anyone?...) Look at the history and you will see who kicked who out....
In the 1920's Jewish Immigration the U.S was restricted(limited). Those remained in place through the 1960's. Seems odd that the pervasive racism even included the U.S, not to be lifted till nears 20 years after Holocaust. The sad fact is the arab and jewish for the most part got along in the region till the post-war era and the Creation of the UN, which in turn created Isreal, which now like an impudent child stomps around on the world stage with it's impressive 40+ U.N Resolutions it's in violation(more than any terror state,designated or not) of.
I'm happy recognition of this has sunk in world-wide, as it has driven too much global politics in less than humane fashion. I know there are sides on both camps that do NOT want a two state set-up, and those that do. I'm fearful this will only to more hawkish Israel, and more fanatics in Hamas. Even Osama Bin Laden often referred to the palestinian situation as a driving factor in his terrorism. On a personal note, I find the Break the Bones strategy to be barbaric, no excuse. This is a world-geopolitical lynchpin social issue, both sides need to be heard, loud and clear, and without rifles drawn. The people, and well as the politicians.It drives too much hatred on both sides, and fosters ignorance, willfull or otherwise.
You can claim it was Israel's first, and maybe it was 2000 years ago, but political influence, and mapmakers with pens gave good jewish people refuge, and political power, at the request of the zionists, from their oppression nearly everywhere else, US included, at the time. Who's land was it at the start of say, 1937? What were their crimes during the war that resulted in the ever increasing scope of this conflict that resulted in these actions. Did arabs perpetrate the Holocaust? Why wasn't Germany carved up for them? Romania?. cause better to cause conflict in a new place, than a old? These just don't get considered very much. I would be extremely critical of worldwide prejudice,immigration policy and public percepction before criticism directed at a civilian on either side done in rage or despair.
So, who kicked who out? Fled persecution and... How did they get the land? Was it a purchase? I'm trying to be coy and get you thinking just a bit broader. All sides have failed, especially biased media, but I scoff at the notion, it's only biased towards Isreal.
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On November 02 2011 03:35 HackBenjamin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:29 Suvorov wrote:
Take off the blindfold mate. It's simply because Canada can't afford on any level to face off against the US. Not economically, not politically and certainly not on the military either. Not that the US wants to have to deal with any trouble north of its border...so there's plenty of room, support and encouragement for puppets like Mr.Harper. What the fuck is this? Do you have numbers to back up any of those reasons why Canada can't "afford" to go against the US? Aside from the fact that US troops are stretched pretty thin at the moment...and putting aside the economic woes they are currently experiencing.. and politically? Not that I'm trying to ignite a Canada vs US debate AT ALL (So don't) but don't just spit out random bullshit when you haven't got your information straight.
Lol... When the purchase of 5 F35 jets from the US become a controversial issue, you know our military is lacking. The US has political and financial issues, yes, but Canada is very much linked to the US.
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Israeli did not received support from the US only during the 1947 war... French helped them too, they were helped and had a definitive advantage over arabs. But let them twist history, I'm sure they prefer to think they won by sheer motivation.
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On November 02 2011 03:37 bonse wrote:Show nested quote +![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? Well, very easy. It never happened! This series of "maps" is just distorted history. There never was in history a Palestinian state, big or small. Before WW1 the territory was held by the Turks. Since WW1 until 1948 the territory (including the East Bank of the Jordan) was held by the British with the mandate to create a national home for the Jewish people. From 1948 until 1967, Gaza was held by Egypt and the West Bank (of the river Jordan) was held by Jordan (the country). The only time when Palestine started to hold territories was after the Oslo accords, when Israel and the Palestinians agreed to establish in time a Palestinian state but only through bilateral negotiations. It was specifically agreed that no side would take unilateral actions (such as annexation by Israel or seeking independence by the Palestinians). This clause the Palestinians are breaking now by forcing recognition by the UN while refusing to negotiate, and because of this US and Israel are upset. A more accurate series of maps: ![[image loading]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-mPOHVS4Frjw/TXev_pw0pBI/AAAAAAAAD4I/T2nWfRAv2dA/s1600/Israeli+land+concessions.jpg) You see, it's Israel who is getting smaller and smaller. To put things in perspective, Israel and its enemies: ![[image loading]](http://www.mefacts.com/cache/html/religion/11177_files/Arab-Countries.gif) See also a more detailed explanation of the maps.
Pre 1948 maps missing? Where's the legitimacy in holding those lands against the will of it's natives? Also, you can't victimise Israel just because it has so many hostile states surrounding it, because many Gulf states have stayed out of the conflict for a long time now, and Israel has the US to balance any oil money poured into the Palestinian case anyway.
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On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
This happened because of World War II. Europeans/Americans felt sorry for the Jews, so they took most of Palestine and basically made it a country for them.
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On November 02 2011 03:43 Niall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 03:06 SupLilSon wrote:On November 02 2011 02:58 Krehlmar wrote:On November 02 2011 02:52 SupLilSon wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 Kupon3ss wrote:
Well this isn't surprising, as appealing to the Jewish community earns American politicians an insane amount of votes and funding while being fair to Palestine earns nothing for elections. What people who aren't Jewish don't realize is that the US and Israel represent pretty much the only two countries where Jews can live without being faced with severe persecution. The amount of media bias against Israel is insane. There used to be large Jewish populations in Europe and Arab nations until they were all forced out (Holocaust anyone?...) Look at the history and you will see who kicked who out.... Ok I am sorry if a moderator feels I am to hard here, but this must be the most retarded post I've ever read in a derailing of a topic. Media bias means there has to be an injustice, problem is we have empiric kognitive PROOF of Israel breaking INTERNATIONAL LAW on a DAILY BASIS. There is no injustice of showing this from the media. What the heck are you talking about persecution? It's worse being a muslim than it is to be a jew in europa, in asia hardly anybody cares. There were never "large" jewish populations since they've never even represented a 1% of the worlds population, not even a 0.1% (google if you don't believe me). Nor did the holocaust drive jews from the arab nations or half of europa... Agh I just can't understand how you can speak about 60 year old happenings as if they should somehow effect the current day situation or how we view justice and law?
The world is never this black and white people, please stop arguing in ultimatums. On November 02 2011 02:56 Mayd wrote:
The land belongs to Israel. Has always belonged.
"GOD" IS NOT A REALESTATE MERCHANT.
Your faith can not outweigh my reality. Also I'd like a moderator to check IP:s on some of these accounts, 5-20 post-accounts from different countries defending Israel out of the blue with a perspective heavily tilted towards pro-israel smells fishy. Honestly, I don't know how to respond to this... as far as I can tell you are just simply ignoring historical fact. There used to be relatively large and healthy populations of Jews in Europe and the Middle East. Now Jews have been forced into living almost exclusively either in the US or Israel. I have to go to class now but when I'm out I will provide numbers to back this up. ^ The above post is correct. Of the top ten countries by Jewish population in 1990, 7 were in Europe. In 2005, only 5 are, with a huge swing towards the United States, which currently boasts the largest Jewish population in the world. Source + Show Spoiler +
What if it's BECAUSE of the US's pro-Israel stance that the Jews emigrated?
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How about we go back to Germany, carve up a land equal to the size of Isreal at their desired time in history, and give it to them? That would be pretty fucking logical seeing as how they are the prime movers of this.
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On November 02 2011 03:50 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
How about we go back to Germany, carve up a land equal to the size of Isreal at their desired time in history, and give it to them? That would be pretty fucking logical seeing as how they are the prime movers of this.
Zionism date way BEFORE WWII. There is a reasons they came in Palestine, that's where they wanted to be.
Note that Hitler used zionism as a proof to hate jews.
So it has nothing to do with WWII, WWII was more or less the thing that justified zionism.
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