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Stay on topic. I cannot put it more clearly then that. Derailments will be met with consequences. ~Nyovne |
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The Israelis always hated other folks around them. It wasn't like they were peaceable people who by yahweh's blessing were given land that they deserved and was their land (according to ancient Hebrew mythology, which is where it derives from), and there was no problem or anything. No. Israel was founded by religious extremism, terrorism, and hatred of non-Jews (or rather, hatred of anyone not for the Zionist cause), particularly by the masses of Zionist immigrants from central/eastern Europe. It's really a stretch to say this was something "shaped" when it was that way even before Israel existed or that they didn't hate other people :S.
Also, the Zionist / Israel lobby in the US is overwhelmingly powerful. I hardly believe the Cold War was even minor in comparison as in influence for such policy (an influence, sure, but a minor one if anything). Soviet influenced Arab countries? You mean the countries that were defiantly anti-communist, but had good relations with a foreign power that didn't shit on them like UK, France, and US did? Seeing as how the Cold War's over and the US has the exact same policy towards Israel, that Cold War claim just doesn't hold much water, especially since the US already had Turkey and Iran (pre-democracy (which unfortunately lasted only briefly due to Op. Ajax) and pre-Islamic revolution) and Saudi Arabia at their bidding during the Cold War.
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On November 02 2011 06:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
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The Israelis always hated other folks around them. It wasn't like they were peaceable people who by yahweh's blessing were given land that they deserved and was their land (according to ancient Hebrew mythology, which is where it derives from), and there was no problem or anything. No. Israel was founded by religious extremism, terrorism, and hatred of non-Jews (or rather, hatred of anyone not for the Zionist cause), particularly by the masses of Zionist immigrants from central/eastern Europe. It's really a stretch to say this was something "shaped" when it was that way even before Israel existed or that they didn't hate other people :S.
Indeed, which is why I always laugh when I see a Zionist Christian. They are completely oblivious to them being completely used and abused.
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On November 02 2011 05:51 sjperera wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg) Make sense? Too simplistic. Palestine was a British governed Mandate, it was a state... niether of the two that we speak of today existed prior to the 1948 partition plane. The land was split 51/49 Jewish/Arab although the Jewish population was about 22% of the total. The Arabs didn't accept the partition, launched a war... Israel's victory enlarged its original state while the Arab Palestinians lost a large clump (left with only about 22% which was governed by Egypt and TransJordan). These two areas were later conquerored through the 1967 Six Day War... the United States' support has grown throughout the years and Israel became an integral Cold War ally against Soviet Influenced forces of the Arab World. While the US-Israeli relationship benefits both parties (Israel more than the US), there is also some guilt regarding the events of the Holocaust and the mindset it has created amongst Israelis and most Jews. Take into account the countless wars between the Arabs and Israelis, and you shouldn't be surprised at how Israeli society and perspective has been shaped. The same goes to the Palestinians, although their national movement is younger and some argue was only born forth from Israel's military victory of 1967... if not, the Palestinian identity would have been diluted and forged with Jordanian and Egyptian concepts of Identity.
I know the picture is quite large and eye-catching, but please note where it says "Super-Abridged Version" 
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Canada11367 Posts
On November 02 2011 01:12 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:11 Cush wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? In short, Palestine and other Islamic Countries tried to take over Israel over many years, and Israel kept beating them. Thats why the land changed so much. Israel kept beating them... With tons of awesome weapons sent by their friends in the USA.
While true in the later wars, it really wasn't the case the day Israel became a nation and was attacked immediately after. Up until that point all the Jewish movements were not exactly legal entities because there was no sovereign state so they weren't allowed to purchase arms while arms were flooding into Arab sectors pre-nation declaration. They also had the backing of the Arab Legion. US's muscle came in later, but the first war, Israel was on defence, outgunned and out-manned.
On November 02 2011 01:09 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:06 Kupon3ss wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? To be fair, each of these expansion of Israel occurred after the Arab nations invaded Israel, were soundly defeated and retreated as Israel took more land to protect itself, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do To be fair, Britain came to Palestine after WWII bringing boatloads of Jewish refugees because Britain didn't want them, and inserted them into Palestine.
Well not exactly, Britain was also trying appease the Arabs in Palestine and had blockades to prevent Jews returning to Palestine and had concentration camps set up in Cyprus.
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I did read through all the pages of the thread, but I just want to say what I feel about this:
Palestine being accepted into UNESCO is a good thing. The US pulling funding on a law is bad.
While it's immediately obvious to anyone with a pro-Palestinian viewpoint, unfortunately the US government and the Israeli lobby aren't going to see it that way.
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
The craziest part is palestinian lands still hold many many historical landmarks such as churches from the jewish, christian and islamic faiths. In UNESCO they can get money to restore and maintain these buildings now but the organisation that is UNESCO is losing money >.<
Furthermore, the stupid Canadian government also wants to leave UNESCO. Palestine being a part of UNESCO is nothing but good news. The non-extremists are going to be able to present their opinions in legitimate ways now. And all this BS about peace comes from Israel and Palestine talking amongst themselves is stupid rhetoric. UNESCO has little to do with the actual peace between parties and next to nothing to do with the creation of the independent nation of palestine.
Instead it gives the more reasonable palestinians and the non-extremist parties in palestine to present their opinions and ideas. Hopefully preserve some of the culture too. But this isn't making palestine a country so idk why people need to make a big deal of this situation and pull out of organisations.
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On November 02 2011 06:14 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:12 darkscream wrote:On November 02 2011 01:11 Cush wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? In short, Palestine and other Islamic Countries tried to take over Israel over many years, and Israel kept beating them. Thats why the land changed so much. Israel kept beating them... With tons of awesome weapons sent by their friends in the USA. While true in the later wars, it really wasn't the case the day Israel became a nation and was attacked immediately after. Up until that point all the Jewish movements were not exactly legal entities because there was no sovereign state so they weren't allowed to purchase arms while arms were flooding into Arab sectors pre-nation declaration. They also had the backing of the Arab Legion. US's muscle came in later, but the first war, Israel was on defence, outgunned and out-manned. Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:09 buhhy wrote:On November 02 2011 01:06 Kupon3ss wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? To be fair, each of these expansion of Israel occurred after the Arab nations invaded Israel, were soundly defeated and retreated as Israel took more land to protect itself, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do To be fair, Britain came to Palestine after WWII bringing boatloads of Jewish refugees because Britain didn't want them, and inserted them into Palestine. Well not exactly, Britain was also trying appease the Arabs in Palestine and had blockades to prevent Jews returning to Palestine and had concentration camps set up in Cyprus.
Do you know why ? There was a civil war, and a huge number of Arabs fled their country to go in Syria or Egypt, where they explained that they were massacred (look here for an exemple). Then the population almost forced their government to go into war.
I'm not saying the Arabs did not killed any Jews, but they were less agressive and killed overall less in this civil war (heck, they were twice less than the Arabs to begin with...).
Also, the Israeli were helped a lot by the US and other countries for this war (France for exemple). They had a huge advantage over the arabics nation during this war, and always had it in each war they got into. Israel's birth is far from the tales some would like it was.
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A little step for a better world !
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I can't tell if we should swallow our pride and fight this law or comply with it...
We aren't exactly helping Palestine out are we?
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On November 02 2011 06:14 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 01:12 darkscream wrote:On November 02 2011 01:11 Cush wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? In short, Palestine and other Islamic Countries tried to take over Israel over many years, and Israel kept beating them. Thats why the land changed so much. Israel kept beating them... With tons of awesome weapons sent by their friends in the USA. While true in the later wars, it really wasn't the case the day Israel became a nation and was attacked immediately after. Up until that point all the Jewish movements were not exactly legal entities because there was no sovereign state so they weren't allowed to purchase arms while arms were flooding into Arab sectors pre-nation declaration. They also had the backing of the Arab Legion. US's muscle came in later, but the first war, Israel was on defence, outgunned and out-manned.
We've been through this, the Israeli forces had a larger army in the 1948 war. Outgunned? Maybe, only because the Arab legion had a few tanks and aircraft.
Also, the war began as soon as the Brits left Palestine, it wasn't a matter of who attacking who. Both sides were showing animosity, and conflict was inevitable.
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On November 02 2011 06:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 06:14 Falling wrote:On November 02 2011 01:12 darkscream wrote:On November 02 2011 01:11 Cush wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? In short, Palestine and other Islamic Countries tried to take over Israel over many years, and Israel kept beating them. Thats why the land changed so much. Israel kept beating them... With tons of awesome weapons sent by their friends in the USA. While true in the later wars, it really wasn't the case the day Israel became a nation and was attacked immediately after. Up until that point all the Jewish movements were not exactly legal entities because there was no sovereign state so they weren't allowed to purchase arms while arms were flooding into Arab sectors pre-nation declaration. They also had the backing of the Arab Legion. US's muscle came in later, but the first war, Israel was on defence, outgunned and out-manned. On November 02 2011 01:09 buhhy wrote:On November 02 2011 01:06 Kupon3ss wrote:On November 02 2011 00:57 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:On November 02 2011 00:47 konadora wrote:On November 02 2011 00:46 SirMilford wrote:On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote:
uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis? It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly. sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious. The super abridged version? Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense? holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades? To be fair, each of these expansion of Israel occurred after the Arab nations invaded Israel, were soundly defeated and retreated as Israel took more land to protect itself, which is a fairly reasonable thing to do To be fair, Britain came to Palestine after WWII bringing boatloads of Jewish refugees because Britain didn't want them, and inserted them into Palestine. Well not exactly, Britain was also trying appease the Arabs in Palestine and had blockades to prevent Jews returning to Palestine and had concentration camps set up in Cyprus. Do you know why ? There was a civil war, and a huge number of Arabs fled their country to go in Syria or Egypt, where they explained that they were massacred (look here for an exemple). Then the population almost forced their government to go into war. I'm not saying the Arabs did not killed any Jews, but they were less agressive and killed overall less in this civil war (heck, they were twice less than the Arabs to begin with...). Also, the Israeli were helped a lot by the US and other countries for this war (France for exemple). They had a huge advantage over the arabics nation during this war, and always had it in each war they got into. Israel's birth is far from the tales some would like it was.
One learns a new thing everyday, huh. I knew the claim that Israel didn't receive massive aid was false, or that many people were driven out of the land by the fanatics or by the violence of the war, but I didn't know that Egypt and Jordan and Syria waged war because of the horrors that were wrought upon the non-Zionist and non-Jews in Palestine. I was always taught that Arabs were inherently evil and got asshurt over the creation of Israel (I knew this to be false, but I wasn't interested in that specific war enough to find out actual casus belli). Quite interesting.
With the US having lost Egypt as its faithful dog with the abdication of Mubarak, the Israelis have been uneasy If this uneasiness becomes too great, the Israelis will probably have the US break relations with Egypt, and then Egypt will go towards Russia and China and mend relations with other Arab countries, which will just make things worse for Israel.
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Winning land in a war is not stealing land, it's the way countries boundaries have been set since inception. Israel would be a lot smaller today if they haven't had to defend themselves over the past 60+ years from ALL SIDES. As most other people on this planet, I would love a Palestinian state (although I doubt how much it would actually help the situation) but it seems like an unattainable goal on both sides for now due to radical politics again on both sides. Also putting that picture up and writing "super abridged version" is really irresponsible IMO. If you're going to put up information like that, back it up with the details that caused that map to be changed or leave it to someone else who cares enough to back up his eye-catching picture with facts that directly relate to the cause of map change (ie. wars where Israel has to defend itself against 4 or more Arab nations at a time and details like the Palestinians would not accept any of the initial proposals by the UN) If I knew nothing on the situation this picture would have deffinitly put me firmly on one side of the argument without explaining either of them...
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The problem with pulling funding is that you can only do it once. The US is losing some influence with this move, even beyond the obvious PR backlash.
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Canada11367 Posts
I am aware of Deir Yassin. It's a terrible blot in Israel's past and could be legitimately called a war crime. But I was specifically talking about that Israel was beating them only with the help of American weapons and while true of later wars it was simply not the case in 1948 where it was illegal to sell weapons to any Jewish paramilitary organization.
A vast majority of Arabs fled country without seeing soldiers at all- something like Deir Yassin would cause widespread panic. Particularly as it was wrapped up in propaganda to make things seem even worse. But it also wasn't a unified strategy of Jewish paramilitary organizations. The Irgun and the Stern Gang in particular were very extreme and I would call them terrorists. The Haganah and Palmach as much more benign. However all the organizations as a whole were pretty decentralized so you have loose cannons that commit great travesties, but it's not necessarily indicative of the whole. King David Hotel same thing- there's so many different organizations with different goals and views on ends/means justification. There was the goal from David Ben Gurion and others to keep "purity in arms." However as war is messy, there are many examples of individual cases were this is not the case. But as a whole the Haganah and the organizations that fell under Ben Gurion and the Jewish Agency adhered to these ideas. Yet on the other side, you have the Hadassah Medical Convoy ambush by the Arabs, but I'm not sure that's indicative of the whole either.
In addition the declaration of war the day after independence was declared while partially wrapped up in thinks like Deir Yassin, their opposition also predates the massacre. Post-partition vote had at least some with the sentiment to drive the Jews into the sea. You probably won't find one single cause however.
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I'm sorry but if you allow a loose cannon to be prime minister..........
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On November 02 2011 06:37 Romulox wrote:
Winning land in a war is not stealing land, it's the way countries boundaries have been set since inception. Israel would be a lot smaller today if they haven't had to defend themselves over the past 60+ years from ALL SIDES. As most other people on this planet, I would love a Palestinian state (although I doubt how much it would actually help the situation) but it seems like an unattainable goal on both sides for now due to radical politics again on both sides. Also putting that picture up and writing "super abridged version" is really irresponsible IMO. If you're going to put up information like that, back it up with the details that caused that map to be changed or leave it to someone else who cares enough to back up his eye-catching picture with facts that directly relate to the cause of map change (ie. wars where Israel has to defend itself against 4 or more Arab nations at a time and details like the Palestinians would not accept any of the initial proposals by the UN) If I knew nothing on the situation this picture would have deffinitly put me firmly on one side of the argument without explaining either of them...
Well I didn't really feel like writing out the history of the middle east today, but you go right ahead, I'll take my post down then.
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On November 02 2011 05:46 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 05:35 henkel wrote:
about he Palestinian vs Israel shitfest both sides can be trialled and found guilty of horrible crimes and should be. but that won't happen till the conflict is over. and if we look at history there haven been conflicts for more then 2000 years in that area. not a single reason imaginable why it shouldn't continue to be this way for at least another 2000 years. So i am not really interested in who did/said/shot/raped/bombed what for what reason.
The thing that interest me most is that American law and the possible consequences of it. Not really familiar with international politics but haven't they created a precedent for other official UN organizations to recognize Palestinia? Come one, come all sense. and how likely is it that the other mentioned UN organs will do that.
cant imagine the US getting out of WHO for example
any can make an educated guess on that? Did you just watch the number of palestinians death in comparaison with the number of israelis death since 1967 ? Please, don't try to say both party are equally guilty of "horrible crimes".
sorry that i apparently didn't make that clear. i'll try beter here
I am not saying they are equally guilty. I am saying they are both not innocent.
take 2 murderers for example, one killed 1 person and the other one 60 million. they are still both guilty of murder.....
I was asking about the possible political consequences of the American law and UNESCO and maybe others acknowledging Palestinia as stated in the OP, the topic of this thread. not the finger pointing about who is the worst of 2 evils what you have been doing
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Canada11367 Posts
On November 02 2011 06:46 kat0 wrote:
I'm sorry but if you allow a loose cannon to be prime minister..........
Menachim Begin you mean? Well there I would agree with you. While he wasn't personally involved with Deir Yassin, I really don't think Irgun or Stern Gang leadership should have had anything to do with government, but then again Hamas formed government as well so I don't even know.
Edit
As to the OP. I don't know. I'm not sure that pulling funding is necessarily the best idea. Although it might make some conservatives happy. Perry seemed ready to axe all funding to the UN. While 20% will hurt, it's probably not devestating and Palestine is still part of UNESCO, so what does it accomplish really?
Second Edit
On November 02 2011 06:50 HackBenjamin wrote:
Well I didn't really feel like writing out the history of the middle east today, but you go right ahead, I'll take my post down then.
Well perhaps not, but even a little extra context would be better than your post which is decidedly one sided. I mean no matter how pro-Palestinian a person is, the story you're telling is that Israel invaded with armies every single time rather than at the very least allowing that in some cases Israel was attacked first by armies and then Israel invaded. Or other things like the green territory assumes that the land was entirely filled and populated by Arabs. Whereas the land had been very desolate for many years and many Arabs had moved there in the last century as there was growing economic prosperity and still other Arabs were immigrating at the same time as the Jews and yet one group is considered indigenous and the other foreign.
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On November 02 2011 00:54 HackBenjamin wrote:Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite. Check out this picture Make sense?
Hate these stupid map concepts, why look at a map from 60 years ago and not 300 years ago or 1000? then we can give the whole land to Rome! 
What has been conquered should just be left be as is, anything else only causes additional life loses.
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EPT
