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On October 26 2011 19:38 SpeaKEaSY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:34 nekolux wrote:
Law banning the trade of the shark's most profitable part however, will cause hunting to drop drastically through market forces. No demand, no supply. Just like how banning drugs causes drug use to drop drastically right? Banning it will just force it to go underground, raising the prices and make shark hunting more profitable.
Different issues.
1) Drugs are physically addictive. Shark's fins are not.
2) I agree that if the black market does come about, the prices for shark's fins will definitely go up but that's perfectly ok. The ultimate result is that the total quantity of shark's fins "produced" will go down.
Furthermore, if we throw in jail time for shark's fins trading I can assure you that no one would actually risk that much for shark's fins.
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It's stupid as shit and fuck the people who claim culture and religion goes before the well-being of the worlds environment. It's that simple and pardon the language but if everyone thought so we could just bulldozer the whole planet and make cattle zones out of it all.
Same here in Sweden, redneck swedes whine about getting to hunt the last 200-500 wolves we have (that are all rebuilt from 7 individuals because we almost made them extinct) whilst the EU is suing us because we're hunting an endangered species: Why should we get exemption from this law?
I don't care if it is Muslim butchering of animals (My father is a muslim and he's opposed to it as well), Jewish kosher, Japanese whaling or chinese sharkfins, any kind of food that tortures the animal or destroys the world for our children is just not defend-able. Why should my children be unable to see whales or wolves because some person today thinks he is entitled to do something that is unlawful?
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On October 26 2011 19:34 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:32 musai wrote:
Oh serious, I'm from Mississauga, as long as I have the fake shark fish soup its all good :D I love me my shark fin soup. I had no idea this was happening back home. Wow. Btw, What is fake shark fin soup? What's in it instead of shark fin?
There are substitute fins made from pork gelatin, and some have proposed using other kinds of fins such as tilapia fins.
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On October 26 2011 19:20 IMSmooth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:12 chickenhawk wrote:That is true, but the balance is still upset. I don't have enough scientific knowledge to pursue this line of argument, but I do know of plenty of examples where human intervention has destroyed an ecosystem and nature did not "work itself out". Not always? 'Work itself out' The world does not need our protection, if all sharks die, something will take its place if needed it. I like it how Agent Smith explains it, man is a virus. Pretty soon, the way we are taking care of our planet, we will not be able to sustain our lifestyle and we will have massive death until something "takes our place" as you so eloquently put it.
We've probably already reached that point. Our influence on the extinction of plants and animals is unreal. It's quite sad how badly we're fucking up this planet.
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On October 26 2011 19:44 drew-chan wrote:
Personally i wouldn't call it bland, even though I feel sharks fin soup requires other sources of flavor (commonly crab meat is used) to compliment it. The texture is pretty nice IMHO. The problem is sharks fin has always been a huge cultural thing for chinese people. Every wedding, and I mean every that I have been to has served sharks fin.
While I do agree current methods of harvesting are rather wasteful, I feel that they should look for more sustainable means of getting sharks fin, though i doubt having a shark farm would be feasible.
I mean, if it really has gotten to the point of endangerment of the species, it would be like me suggesting we should find a sustainable way of harvesting ivory. Ivory is a status symbol too you know and part of some cultures.
Slavery used to be a part of our culture and most other cultures. I dont think i need to explain why culture does not always need to be kept. People evolve their ways of thinking.
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I love sharks fin 
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1. Arguments about whether shark fin soup is tasty is beside the point.
2. All animals need to be protected to maintain the world's ecological diversity. The current consumption of sharks is unsustainable and needs to be curbed.
3. An outright ban is not how you make something sustainable.
4. This isn't about cruelty, it's about sustainability. Because there are far more animal abuses in the production of other goods. Fur coats, foie gras, force fed swine, Kosher/Halal meat etc.
5. This is partly a cultural issue, and should be handled sensitively. It's as much a cultural issue as if they banned foie gras in France, recreational hunting in the US, or sushi in Japan.
6. The solution should therefore be harvesting restrictions through the appropriate UN arms. Small localised efforts accomplish very little, irritate many, and disrupt possibilities of a worldwide solution.
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On October 26 2011 19:30 Sufficiency wrote:
By the way, I don't think this helps anyone. If anything, there should be a law disallowing fishermen to harvast shark fins.
That would be the best option if everyone followed the rules or it was super easy to regulate. Unfortunately both of those just don't really happen, so they have to ban the product.
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Sharks fin soup is really tasty
But hey, if it gets banned, thats just how it goes
Though you can be damned sure that there wont be any banning of western culture involved
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On October 26 2011 18:41 T.O.P. wrote:
It's an example of the majority infringing on the rights of the minority. The law unfairly targets people of Chinese descent by banning one of their cultural traditions.
You can say the same thing for eating foie gras, or whaling, or hunting rhinos for their horns or lions for their hides. Going further back in time, you could also try to use this argument to defend slavery or polygamy. And in each of those contexts, the argument is equally idiotic. It's particularly idiotic if one observes that there is no intrinsic right (as you seem to assert there is) for minority populations living within a modern, liberal society to exercise any cultural traditions they wish, regardless of how ill-founded, antiquated, or unsustainable they may be.
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I think it's important that the people who are upset with the ban realise that the reasons for the ban are not cultural, they're ecological. Any practice which is ecologically unsustainable should be banned in my opinion - and that applies to other practices like whaling and overfishing (and particularly some of the destructive methods used in fishing).
This isn't a culture war; it's about respecting nature and not destroying the habitats we ultimately depend on. It doesn't matter if shark fins are the tastiest thing ever or tasteless - what matters is does the practice of harvesting shark fins damage the ecosystem? I think that has been answered fairly conclusively.
"Reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
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For all those stating that its denying some sort of cultural right, our culture in the UK used to have the death penalty, but societies change with the times, time for the Chinese to do so.
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On October 26 2011 19:49 IMSmooth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:44 drew-chan wrote:
Personally i wouldn't call it bland, even though I feel sharks fin soup requires other sources of flavor (commonly crab meat is used) to compliment it. The texture is pretty nice IMHO. The problem is sharks fin has always been a huge cultural thing for chinese people. Every wedding, and I mean every that I have been to has served sharks fin.
While I do agree current methods of harvesting are rather wasteful, I feel that they should look for more sustainable means of getting sharks fin, though i doubt having a shark farm would be feasible. I mean, if it really has gotten to the point of endangerment of the species, it would be like me suggesting we should find a sustainable way of harvesting ivory. Ivory is a status symbol too you know and part of some cultures. Slavery used to be a part of our culture and most other cultures. I dont think i need to explain why culture does not always need to be kept. People evolve their ways of thinking.
I completely understand where you are coming from. But don't you think the examples you use are on the really extreme side of the scale?
Certain cultures have practices that may be considered 'wrong'. Things like hazing still exists in many places. Now rather than completely banning sharks fin, wouldn't a better approach to be slowly phasing out the culture of eating sharks fin. Maybe something along the lines of having a maximum of 20% real fin to 80% of alternatives?
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On October 26 2011 19:55 BrTarolg wrote:
Sharks fin soup is really tasty
But hey, if it gets banned, thats just how it goes
Though you can be damned sure that there wont be any banning of western culture involved
Hey, if you can find any animal that is both endangered and consumed as part of Western culture, I'll sure as hell oppose that.
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On October 26 2011 19:55 BrTarolg wrote:
Sharks fin soup is really tasty
But hey, if it gets banned, thats just how it goes
Though you can be damned sure that there wont be any banning of western culture involved
Name a wester cultural practice that puts an entire species in endangerment that has gone unregulated. Really, read the discussion before you go " oh hey you are just against it cause its foreign, and westerners are hypocrites blah blah blah".
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You can't really argue for rights on something that is so tangibly wrong.
Reality > You.
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Why the hell are some people equating keeping the fins and tossing the shark as chinese culture? Chinese people do not advocate this wasteful practice....The fishermen are doing this simply because it's more profitable, they are playing economics. So all the culture arguments are way off base. WTF guys?
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On October 26 2011 20:01 drew-chan wrote:
Now rather than completely banning sharks fin, wouldn't a better approach to be slowly phasing out the culture of eating sharks fin. Maybe something along the lines of having a maximum of 20% real fin to 80% of alternatives?
The trouble is, when there is already massive ecological damage, the sooner you stop the practice the better it is. Any further damage onto an already depleted population will cause exponentially more damage, so even allowing just a smaller amount of shark finning to occurr will cause devastating and potentially irreparable damage to the ecosystem.
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I'm against finning as i'm against whaling/dolphin killing etc. When it comes to these things, i'm pretty hippy.
It's disgusting to watch them 'overfishing' them and cutting their fins while the fish is still alive etc.
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On October 26 2011 20:01 drew-chan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:49 IMSmooth wrote:On October 26 2011 19:44 drew-chan wrote:
Personally i wouldn't call it bland, even though I feel sharks fin soup requires other sources of flavor (commonly crab meat is used) to compliment it. The texture is pretty nice IMHO. The problem is sharks fin has always been a huge cultural thing for chinese people. Every wedding, and I mean every that I have been to has served sharks fin.
While I do agree current methods of harvesting are rather wasteful, I feel that they should look for more sustainable means of getting sharks fin, though i doubt having a shark farm would be feasible. I mean, if it really has gotten to the point of endangerment of the species, it would be like me suggesting we should find a sustainable way of harvesting ivory. Ivory is a status symbol too you know and part of some cultures. Slavery used to be a part of our culture and most other cultures. I dont think i need to explain why culture does not always need to be kept. People evolve their ways of thinking. I completely understand where you are coming from. But don't you think the examples you use are on the really extreme side of the scale? Certain cultures have practices that may be considered 'wrong'. Things like hazing still exists in many places. Now rather than completely banning sharks fin, wouldn't a better approach to be slowly phasing out the culture of eating sharks fin. Maybe something along the lines of having a maximum of 20% real fin to 80% of alternatives?
I agree totally, but it is comparable to the ivory statement. The practice needed to be completely banned and some species still almost died out. I do not think sharks are critically endangered yet but they are approaching numbers where this gradual transition you are suggesting is no longer viable.
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EPT
