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On October 30 2011 14:55 jeb3 wrote:
*Thinks about this issue from the shark's perspective*
....
Pretty sure i don't give a fuck what you do with me if you're gonna kill me. Would simply rather that you not kill me.
"Oh Mr. Tiger you promise you're gonna eat my whole body and not just my face?? Oh thank god you're HUMANE. Go ahead and have at me!....." I do not understand the logic of some (most) people.
Hmm. Neither do I.
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On October 30 2011 14:55 jeb3 wrote:
*Thinks about this issue from the shark's perspective*
....
Pretty sure i don't give a fuck what you do with me if you're gonna kill me. Would simply rather that you not kill me.
"Oh Mr. Tiger you promise you're gonna eat my whole body and not just my face?? Oh thank god you're HUMANE. Go ahead and have at me!....." I do not understand the logic of some (most) people.
That's inane as shit. If I were asked whether I'd rather have someone cut my feet and hands off and leave me to bleed to death, or give me a quick death, I'd ask for the quick death every time.
That isn't why there should be a ban though, or at least some regulation, the real reason it quite simply, it's unsustainable and will result in the sharks being hunted to extinction. I also give a few less fucks because the practice seems to be wholly unnecessary as some people have suggested the fin largely adds texture to the soup that can easily be mimicked by artificial substitutes.
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Yah, let's ban shark fin, so it becomes even more expensive on the black market!!!
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That gordon ramsey video was very eye opening, i cant believe it. Glad to see it starting here in canada
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Funny how a ban all about ethics and sustainability immediately gets called racist. I'm not Chinese, but I assume sharkfin soup would be delicious even to people of european descent (I bloomin love chinese food)
Doesn't mean that it's okay to produce it.
As for the vegetarian argument that all meat is as bad, it's farcical.
Without a meat industry, pasture land would be lost to agriculture and that precious nature you all love so much would have to make way for more viable food crops.
Think most meat eaters are disgusted by battery raised hens or (most) veal or any number of poorly looked after food animals. Not thinking about it/being too poor for an alternative still doesn't mean it's acceptable. I'm as guilty as the nest man of just not thinking about where my cut price meats come from (reprocessing "meat products" for the great unwashed \o/)
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On October 30 2011 19:50 Renegade_Doc wrote:
As for the vegetarian argument that all meat is as bad, it's farcical.
Without a meat industry, pasture land would be lost to agriculture and that precious nature you all love so much would have to make way for more viable food crops.
im not a vegetarian but what youve said is simply ignorant. Its much much more efficient to consume food crops directly than to have to grow the crops to feed the animals til they get fat and then eat the animals.
its great that they've banned sharks fin, the flavor of the dish comes from the soup anyway, and the texture of the fins can be imitated with gelatin. this dish is about as dumb as rhino horns and tiger penis and you need to draw the line some where.
preservation of culture is bullshit, there are tons of inhumane practices which can be attributed to culture. as humans advance as a species, its only natural that we discard silly practices.
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The dish is not made specifically for taste (though you will find that most who eat it say it is tasty, no matter how hard Gordon Ramsay tries to push his agenda). It has cultural, traditional and symbolic significance in Chinese culture, originating over a millennia ago from about 960AD. It is used at times of great celebration, or times of great importance such as weddings, certain banquets or large business deals. It is often a show of respect and honour to serve it to guests, which is why the few people who argue that it can just be substituted or ignored, or that it can be taxed and priced out of existence or that the present issue is merely an environmental one only highlight the narrowness of their worldview and their underlying tone of cultural imperialism and patronisation. An outright ban on a product used only by minorities to remedy an environmental problem that can only be solved on a multi-national basis smells of rank political opportunism.
And by the way, the few who would compare eating shark fin to bear bile, dogs, and sheesh, Western slavery and Incan sacrifices have lost all sense of perspective. Would it be better if it had been "blue fin tuna soup?" Remembering of course, as someone on the previous page noted, that Canada itself refuses to endorse international action on blue fin tuna and in fact going so far as to support Japan on the issue? This is, if ever, a case of double standards, hypocrisy, cultural imperialism and frankly, underlying racism.
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On October 30 2011 20:33 sigma_x wrote:
The dish is not made specifically for taste (though you will find that most who eat it say it is tasty, no matter how hard Gordon Ramsay tries to push his agenda). It has cultural, traditional and symbolic significance in Chinese culture, originating over a millennia ago from about 960AD. It is used at times of great celebration, or times of great importance such as weddings, certain banquets or large business deals. It is often a show of respect and honour to serve it to guests, which is why the few people who argue that it can just be substituted or ignored, or that it can be taxed and priced out of existence or that the present issue is merely an environmental one only highlight the narrowness of their worldview and their underlying tone of cultural imperialism and patronisation. An outright ban on a product used only by minorities to remedy an environmental problem that can only be solved on a multi-national basis smells of rank political opportunism.
And by the way, the few who would compare eating shark fin to bear bile, dogs, and sheesh, Western slavery and Incan sacrifices have lost all sense of perspective. Would it be better if it had been "blue fin tuna soup?" Remembering of course, as someone on the previous page noted, that Canada itself refuses to endorse international action on blue fin tuna and in fact going so far as to support Japan on the issue? This is, if ever, a case of double standards, hypocrisy, cultural imperialism and frankly, underlying racism.
Politics sucks, because we'll never live in a perfect society. If we did, we would have no need for politicians. Can't always please everyone. Here we have people who refuses to change their culture in a fast changing world. My parents hate the fact that I'm not into practicing our cultural traditions, but I tell them I was born in this generation, not theirs. It's good to know where your people came from and how your ancestors were, but you don't need to live like them. If I was living like my forebearers before me, what the heck am I contributing to my culture. I'm only extending what they've contributed and not what I want to.
EDIT- Yeah, I know people don't live or think the mindset I do... It's just what I think about my culture. However, I do think that they should realize that the world is changing very fast. It just seems to me that they're ignoring the changes due to pride.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
I hold China in very high esteem, which makes me all the more sorrowful at how some people here are trying to uphold stupid and meaningless traditions. First of all, wanting traditions to remain what they've always been makes you a mere sheep. Everything that's obviously not worthy of human standards should disappear. A lot of various customs have existed and been abandoned over the course of history because people realised they simply had better to do. But especially, I wish to say that if you need to prepare such contrived dishes to show people respect, you really need to learn decent human behaviour. I'm well aware money plays a major role in modern Zhonghua, and I hear, be it true or not, that you feel urges to show people that you have money by serving expensive cuisine and offering precious gifts ; as is more or less the case everywhere in the world, after all. Well, it's extremely immature. Quit this obsession with money and grow to be wiser human beings, I pray you. Your country is famed to have one of world's greatest cultures, and I must say I was surprised to read that the Land of Dragon Boats and hanzi was so preoccupied with eating fins because, otherwise, what are they possibly going to do ?
As for racism and cultural imperialism, I should like to mention the case of corrida in France. Although the law prevents any form of cruelty towards animals, there is an exception for bullfighting because of it's "traditional" importance. Yet there have always been heated debate about the subject and numerous people simply wish it to disappear (and so do I). Obviously, we Westerners are not simply concerned wish erasing our neighbours' customs, do you not think ?
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On October 30 2011 20:55 Pleiades wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 20:33 sigma_x wrote:
The dish is not made specifically for taste (though you will find that most who eat it say it is tasty, no matter how hard Gordon Ramsay tries to push his agenda). It has cultural, traditional and symbolic significance in Chinese culture, originating over a millennia ago from about 960AD. It is used at times of great celebration, or times of great importance such as weddings, certain banquets or large business deals. It is often a show of respect and honour to serve it to guests, which is why the few people who argue that it can just be substituted or ignored, or that it can be taxed and priced out of existence or that the present issue is merely an environmental one only highlight the narrowness of their worldview and their underlying tone of cultural imperialism and patronisation. An outright ban on a product used only by minorities to remedy an environmental problem that can only be solved on a multi-national basis smells of rank political opportunism.
And by the way, the few who would compare eating shark fin to bear bile, dogs, and sheesh, Western slavery and Incan sacrifices have lost all sense of perspective. Would it be better if it had been "blue fin tuna soup?" Remembering of course, as someone on the previous page noted, that Canada itself refuses to endorse international action on blue fin tuna and in fact going so far as to support Japan on the issue? This is, if ever, a case of double standards, hypocrisy, cultural imperialism and frankly, underlying racism. Politics sucks, because we'll never live in a perfect society. If we did, we would have no need for politicians. Can't always please everyone. Here we have people who refuses to change their culture in a fast changing world. My parents hate the fact that I'm not into practicing our cultural traditions, but I tell them I was born in this generation, not theirs. It's good to know where your people came from and how your ancestors were, but you don't need to live like them. If I was living like my forebearers before me, what the heck am I contributing to my culture. I'm only extending what they've contributed and not what I want to. EDIT- Yeah, I know people don't live or think the mindset I do... It's just what I think about my culture. However, I do think that they should realize that the world is changing very fast. It just seems to me that they're ignoring the changes due to pride. Do you know how much money is going to waste lighting Christmas trees every year? Today where energy is becoming ever more scare, we got 50 foot trees caked Christmas lights all over major cities. Yet, we make no attempt to change.
Same reason why Chinese eat shark fins, it's a cultural thing. Some things will fade over time as they lose their place, this isn't one of those things.
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If you're going to harvest anything from the earth, it has to be done in a responsible manner. Until it is done in a responsible way, banning the trade seems reasonable.
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On October 31 2011 01:56 ZiegFeld wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 20:55 Pleiades wrote:On October 30 2011 20:33 sigma_x wrote:
The dish is not made specifically for taste (though you will find that most who eat it say it is tasty, no matter how hard Gordon Ramsay tries to push his agenda). It has cultural, traditional and symbolic significance in Chinese culture, originating over a millennia ago from about 960AD. It is used at times of great celebration, or times of great importance such as weddings, certain banquets or large business deals. It is often a show of respect and honour to serve it to guests, which is why the few people who argue that it can just be substituted or ignored, or that it can be taxed and priced out of existence or that the present issue is merely an environmental one only highlight the narrowness of their worldview and their underlying tone of cultural imperialism and patronisation. An outright ban on a product used only by minorities to remedy an environmental problem that can only be solved on a multi-national basis smells of rank political opportunism.
And by the way, the few who would compare eating shark fin to bear bile, dogs, and sheesh, Western slavery and Incan sacrifices have lost all sense of perspective. Would it be better if it had been "blue fin tuna soup?" Remembering of course, as someone on the previous page noted, that Canada itself refuses to endorse international action on blue fin tuna and in fact going so far as to support Japan on the issue? This is, if ever, a case of double standards, hypocrisy, cultural imperialism and frankly, underlying racism. Politics sucks, because we'll never live in a perfect society. If we did, we would have no need for politicians. Can't always please everyone. Here we have people who refuses to change their culture in a fast changing world. My parents hate the fact that I'm not into practicing our cultural traditions, but I tell them I was born in this generation, not theirs. It's good to know where your people came from and how your ancestors were, but you don't need to live like them. If I was living like my forebearers before me, what the heck am I contributing to my culture. I'm only extending what they've contributed and not what I want to. EDIT- Yeah, I know people don't live or think the mindset I do... It's just what I think about my culture. However, I do think that they should realize that the world is changing very fast. It just seems to me that they're ignoring the changes due to pride. Do you know how much money is going to waste lighting Christmas trees every year? Today where energy is becoming ever more scare, we got 50 foot trees caked Christmas lights all over major cities. Yet, we make no attempt to change. Same reason why Chinese eat shark fins, it's a cultural thing. Some things will fade over time as they lose their place, this isn't one of those things.
Not to discount this as a valid point, but xmas trees are hardly the source of the global energy crisis. There are some methods of energy production on the horizon that have the potential to take us from "tier 1" to "tier 2" (thought I'd throw in some SC lingo). The energy crisis is less our lifestyle and much more our capacity to produce energy (just my opinion on the matter though, it's debatable and I'm sure some disagree). There's really no two ways about depopulating a species so vital to the ecosystem though. We hold in our hands the capacity to truly cripple the ecosystem, and I'd hope if we were to make that mistake it wouldn't be over soup.
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On October 30 2011 14:42 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 14:36 Eknoid4 wrote:On October 26 2011 18:41 T.O.P. wrote:
It's an example of the majority infringing on the rights of the minority. The law unfairly targets people of Chinese descent by banning one of their cultural traditions. Please explain to me how China is the minority. Name a country with more people If you're going to try to devalue something with semantics, at least make it so that you are coming from a correct position and are twisting the words of the other person completely out of context because you don't understand what a term means. According to the 2006 Canadian census, 4.3% of the demographic were Chinese. This makes them a minority. I think T.O.P. and many of the other Chinese posters in this thread are approaching the ban in Toronto in an incredibly wrong way, but you're just grasping at nonexistent straws. Don't lower the discussion into stupidity because you don't even understand what "minority" means.
The problem is if you combine Western Europe and North America the difference between their total population and china really isn't that much.
Perspective.
it's like saying the 50 white kids are taking advantage of the 53 chinese kids because there are less chinese kids.
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On October 26 2011 18:41 T.O.P. wrote:
It's an example of the majority infringing on the rights of the minority. The law unfairly targets people of Chinese descent by banning one of their cultural traditions.
That would only be true if the law targeted this specifically because it was a cultural tradition. This is false - there are objective reasons (lack of sustainability) behind this ban. So long as unsustainable practices are evenly prohibited, you cannot make a cultural argument.
Any sort of control on anything specifically targets people that are involved in that thing. This is obvious and inescapable, but a necessary effect, and not inherently a bad thing.
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On October 30 2011 20:55 Pleiades wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 20:33 sigma_x wrote:
The dish is not made specifically for taste (though you will find that most who eat it say it is tasty, no matter how hard Gordon Ramsay tries to push his agenda). It has cultural, traditional and symbolic significance in Chinese culture, originating over a millennia ago from about 960AD. It is used at times of great celebration, or times of great importance such as weddings, certain banquets or large business deals. It is often a show of respect and honour to serve it to guests, which is why the few people who argue that it can just be substituted or ignored, or that it can be taxed and priced out of existence or that the present issue is merely an environmental one only highlight the narrowness of their worldview and their underlying tone of cultural imperialism and patronisation. An outright ban on a product used only by minorities to remedy an environmental problem that can only be solved on a multi-national basis smells of rank political opportunism.
And by the way, the few who would compare eating shark fin to bear bile, dogs, and sheesh, Western slavery and Incan sacrifices have lost all sense of perspective. Would it be better if it had been "blue fin tuna soup?" Remembering of course, as someone on the previous page noted, that Canada itself refuses to endorse international action on blue fin tuna and in fact going so far as to support Japan on the issue? This is, if ever, a case of double standards, hypocrisy, cultural imperialism and frankly, underlying racism. Politics sucks, because we'll never live in a perfect society. If we did, we would have no need for politicians. Can't always please everyone. Here we have people who refuses to change their culture in a fast changing world. My parents hate the fact that I'm not into practicing our cultural traditions, but I tell them I was born in this generation, not theirs. It's good to know where your people came from and how your ancestors were, but you don't need to live like them. If I was living like my forebearers before me, what the heck am I contributing to my culture. I'm only extending what they've contributed and not what I want to. EDIT- Yeah, I know people don't live or think the mindset I do... It's just what I think about my culture. However, I do think that they should realize that the world is changing very fast. It just seems to me that they're ignoring the changes due to pride.
While your view might hold some merit if the tradition was, i don't know, the mutilation of male baby penises (circumcision), the debate is over fish soup (yes, a shark is a type of fish). This is hardly the barbaric and shocking tradition that some are trying to make it out to be.
The only reason this argument is being had, is due to the environmental sustainability of harvesting sharks. Fine, if you're arguing that shark finning should be regulated via multi-national agreements. But don't tell me that a band of ineffectual parochial self-righteous self-stylised crusader-politicians are doing anything other than pandering to the racist vote.
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Oh please, too many people use the race card too much nowadays. Should I tell people to fuck off in poaching tigers, certain brown bears, rhinos, and other endangered plants and animals because they're involved in cultural traditions or medicine? No, I want to say that they're in danger of going on extinction if we don't control it.
If they don't like the ban then they should go somewhere else. Plenty of countries or jurisdictions that allow this kind of practice.
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On October 31 2011 20:21 Pleiades wrote:
Oh please, too many people use the race card too much nowadays. Should I tell people to fuck off in poaching tigers, certain brown bears, rhinos, and other endangered plants and animals because they're involved in cultural traditions or medicine? No, I want to say that they're in danger of going on extinction if we don't control it.
If they don't like the ban then they should go somewhere else. Plenty of countries or jurisdictions that allow this kind of practice.
While i more or less agree with your first paragraph, your second paragraph confirms my suspicions as to what the real agenda is.
History is littered with examples of politicians who, while pretending to uphold some virtuous esoteric goal, pass laws which have no possibility of fulfilling that goal for the real purpose of some altogether more pragmatic reason. I am completely unconvinced that the politicians who passed this law didn't see this as an opportunity for cheap political point scoring, declaring with one voice that this is all about environmentalism, whilst with another laughing at the fact that the Chinese people in Toronto couldn't possibly launch a counter-campaign effective enough to have an impact on their polling numbers. And this is to say nothing of the utter ineffectiveness (or the hypocrisy) of this law.
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On October 30 2011 19:50 Renegade_Doc wrote:
Funny how a ban all about ethics and sustainability immediately gets called racist. I'm not Chinese, but I assume sharkfin soup would be delicious even to people of european descent (I bloomin love chinese food)
Doesn't mean that it's okay to produce it.
As for the vegetarian argument that all meat is as bad, it's farcical.
Without a meat industry, pasture land would be lost to agriculture and that precious nature you all love so much would have to make way for more viable food crops.
Think most meat eaters are disgusted by battery raised hens or (most) veal or any number of poorly looked after food animals. Not thinking about it/being too poor for an alternative still doesn't mean it's acceptable. I'm as guilty as the nest man of just not thinking about where my cut price meats come from (reprocessing "meat products" for the great unwashed \o/)
Are you kidding? I can't tell.
No, we'd have to use substantially less land. Why? Because the number of pounds of grain/crops you have to feed to animals to get a one pound return in meat is ridiculously disproportional. It's usually between 10-15 pounds of grain to yield one pound of meat. So please, the meat industry only shits all over nature.
On a slightly related note, I love steak, it's my favorite food, I'm completely against getting rid of the meat industry T_T. I'm just not deluded about it.
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sigma: You may not be wrong in the sense that the positives of this are less than they seem, but I still see zero negatives.
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A straight up ban could have many unintended consequences. Drug and alcohol prohibition have been a nightmare. The only effective way to fight such a thing is through education.
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EPT
