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On October 26 2011 19:06 SevenSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:46 Divergence wrote:On October 26 2011 18:41 T.O.P. wrote:
It's an example of the majority infringing on the rights of the minority. The law unfairly targets people of Chinese descent by banning one of their cultural traditions. Merely being a cultural tradition is not a strong enough criterion for it to be allowed. It's not hard to imagine a cultural tradition that is clearly not acceptable in the modern world. We have to all be willing to coexist in the world, and if the majority believes strongly in preserving the environment then it's unreasonable to not accept that. I agree, but there must be a sentiment of sensitivity when dealing with cultural traditions as well. A lot of the posts here do not reflect that at all. Posts like 'Good, ban it', or 'Ban it, greed' etc are not ways to bring about smooth change which cares about the people involved.
You'd presumably be in favour of it being heavily taxed then?
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That is true, but the balance is still upset. I don't have enough scientific knowledge to pursue this line of argument, but I do know of plenty of examples where human intervention has destroyed an ecosystem and nature did not "work itself out".
Not always? 'Work itself out' The world does not need our protection, if all sharks die, something will take its place if needed it.
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I don't understand why people are bringing up the flavour of the shark fins at all in this discussion. Flavour is one of the most subjective standards I can think of.
I don't fall on either side of banning shark fin in Canada because I have no idea what the ecosystem is like up there but in Australia we have squillions of sharks, the standard fish you buy in our fish and chip shops is the gummy shark or "flake" and every chinese restaurant has shark fin soup for not much more than their normal soups. Shit be tasty, I've probably eaten more sharks than any other type of seafood (calamari excepted cos that stuff is edible heaven rubber when made right).
EDIT: For all those people saying it tastes like nothing, that is just false. It is a subtle flavour, like proper souffle has a subtle flavour. Not everything needs to be smeared in tomato sauce and salt.
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Damn culture, the practice is abominable. Yes, we should respect people's culture whenever we can, but it when it endangers a whole species survival, it should be stopped.
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On October 26 2011 18:44 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:37 valheru wrote:
Fine by me I hate all seafood....and the method of harvesting is unethical (throwing them back alive without fins, is how I understand it) In a way I agree it seems pretty horrible but at the same time, how much difference is it really between doing that and letting ordinary food fish die slowly on a boat? The only difference I can see is that you are not using the whole shark as food which is a seperate point to the issue.
Good point actually. I can't really say that a fish suffocating to death on a boat is ethically better than a shark thrown back without fins, I just don't really know how to judge that.
It seems that the shark has the more painful, wasteful and greater ecological damaging death, but then again there are the sheer numbers of fish that die.
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I agree, but there must be a sentiment of sensitivity when dealing with cultural traditions as well. A lot of the posts here do not reflect that at all. Posts like 'Good, ban it', or 'Ban it, greed' etc are not ways to bring about smooth change which cares about the people involved.
I do not understand, i do not like it, i do not care.
I agree with you, when banning a tradition, you must care for the people too, not just ban it so that you can forget it.
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Well, from the Gordon Ramsay pice I'd say shark finning is a quite barbaric practice. Then again, I don't have any delusions about what goes on in western dairy/poultry farms etc..
Seems hard to live with, but I guess you can either accept that homo sapiens is just another predator or go Vegetarian. Cruel World T_T
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
If the legislators even cared about balancing the concerns of both the Chinese and Environmental groups, they would have banned the sale the shark fin that is obtained from endangered sharks instead of an outright ban.
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The fact the body part of an animal is a significant part of a cultural tradition speaks volumes about the absurdity of cultural traditions.
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It seems that the shark has the more painful, wasteful and greater ecological damaging death, but then again there are the sheer numbers of fish that die.
Wasteful? The shark is returned to the ecosystem, and nothing is wast in nature, if this is the reason they ban it, i find it stupid, but that is just my opinion.
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Why eat shark fin (which apparently tastes like nothing) instead of Peking duck? The most delicious dish known to man kind? I could go for some peking duck any day of the week 
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On October 26 2011 18:26 oldgregg wrote:
Good, ban it. Sorry Chinese people but not all cultural traditions are ok. Its just cruel and wasteful to fin a shark then throw it back in the water
What? The whole cutting off the fins and tossing shark is not tradition... it's pure capitalism.
Asian people are notorious for eating all edible parts of an animal and not being wasteful. Why do some fishermen do this then? Obviously because they've determined that they make more money filling up their boat with only shark fin as opposed to half fin half/rest of shark. It's not cultural at all, just economics.
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Maybe instead of banning shark fin soup they should just regulate it and make it more expensive. unfortunately sharks are having problems with it and sharks are vital to the balance of the ecosystem so it's probably best that the interest of the shark be taken into account.
It's probably fucking delicious, as are whales. I honestly wouldn't mind tasting either but if it's a problem I won't. ^^
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On October 26 2011 19:10 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:00 Divergence wrote:
As hard as it is to deny someone their culture, I think anyone who is sufficiently self-aware should be able to realize when their culture is silly and has a significant negative impact on society. I have little tolerance for people who are too ignorant to honestly assess their own culture.
I have no doubt that their are certain cultural things I do which are objectively silly, but I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that (if pointed out). Everyone should be willing to do the same. I expect it of anyone inhabiting the earth. You only think that way because of the culture that you are brought up in. If you go to china and ask them what they think of westerners, they'll say the same thing. Westerners are ignorant people who's food make them sick. They'll think they intelligent and self aware too.
Well I do not claim that Westerner's are less ignorant than any other part of the world (I obviously don't know). The one thing we have going for us is that our government does little to restrict the information that we can be exposed to, while in many parts of the world you are exposed to government propaganda and only government propaganda from day one. That is bound to breed ignorance.
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The shark fin is tasteless. Many restaurants use chicken broth and use a very small piece of fin anyway (because the fin is the most expensive part of course).
Shark fins are believed to prevent cancer (because for some reason Asiatic cultures believed that sharks could not get cancer). That has proven to be incorrect.
Around 26 to 70 million sharks die to finning a year. Many shark species are endangered because of this (the whale shark and basking shark primarily because their fin is huge, a whale shark pectoral can fetch 10,000 dollars). This is problematic because sharks reproduce later in life and are not given a chance to give birth to offspring. And don't say "oh it's returning to nature". Sharks are apex predators and keep the fish populations healthy by removing the diseased and dying fish. They cannot do that without fins. Removing apex predators threatens the balance of the ecosystem, causing the population of their pray to increase dramatically, which in turn mandates more food (from the ones below).
I attended a lecture about this. The author visited Hong Kong, the central hub of the industry. She found that many vendors don't even know what species of shark they are selling and just call it whatever they want.
A positive thing to note is that many Chinese are learning about the consequences of this and are moving to the other side. Education is the best tool. Small villages who rely on finning as their main source of economy are turning to ecotourism instead (some places you can swim with the whale sharks). It is much more profitable than finning, although increased exposure to humans can have a negative effect to the sharks, like disrupting their feeding patterns. But its a step in the right direction.
I can understand why the Chinese would think it is unfair. There are a lot of awful practices out there (the poultry and beef industry to name one) and they feel singled out. It would be nice if there were a more environmentally friendly solution. But action must be taken.
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On October 26 2011 19:15 T.O.P. wrote:
If the legislators even cared about balancing the concerns of both the Chinese and Environmental groups, they would have banned the sale the shark fin that is obtained from endangered sharks instead of an outright ban.
Most species of sharks are already endangered, and in fact, shark's fin farming is unsustainable as sharks have very long gestation periods and few offspring. Although I am Chinese, I think that environmental concerns should be of paramount importance, and furthermore, at this rate sharks fin is being harvested, noone will get to eat it in the future.
That being said, shark's fin soup does not get flavour from shark's fin, which is actually tasteless; the shark's fin is only there for texture, and as a show wealth. There has been much research on creating substitutes for sharks fin and hopefully people will wise up to using environmentally friendly alternatives.
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On October 26 2011 19:16 Paperplane wrote:Why eat shark fin (which apparently tastes like nothing) instead of Peking duck? The most delicious dish known to man kind? I could go for some peking duck any day of the week
lol, a shop near my house does Peking Duck pizza.
As much as I love peking duck you can very easily ruin it 
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On October 26 2011 19:12 chickenhawk wrote:Show nested quote +That is true, but the balance is still upset. I don't have enough scientific knowledge to pursue this line of argument, but I do know of plenty of examples where human intervention has destroyed an ecosystem and nature did not "work itself out". Not always? 'Work itself out' The world does not need our protection, if all sharks die, something will take its place if needed it.
Um.... i placed this link in a spoiler but people just dont seem to READ.
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http://eu.oceana.org/en/eu/our-work/marine-wildlife/sharks/learn-more/the-importance-of-sharks
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I like it how Agent Smith explains it, man is a virus. Pretty soon, the way we are taking care of our planet, we will not be able to sustain our lifestyle and we will have massive death until something "takes our place" as you so eloquently put it.
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Chinese people are dying of starvation and there are thousands of sharks thrown into the ocean to rot in the sea daily. I dont see how Shark Fin soup is justifiable. It's not like the soup is leaving their culture, it will always be there. Just should not be a prominent mainstay of their culture.
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Think we need a poll
Poll: Support shark's fin ban?Yes (143) 77% No (23) 12% Support restrictions short of a full ban (20) 11% Others (0) 0% 186 total votes Your vote: Support shark's fin ban? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Support restrictions short of a full ban
(Vote): Others
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EPT
