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On March 16 2005 10:53 mindspike wrote:
Btw, if you knew anything about Chinese history you would know that the reason China has been isolationist is as a result of the pillaging that Western countries inflicted upon her throughout the 17th century. I.E opium wars
China was isolationist before the opium wars, it was the opium wars which forced China open.
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Yes, I heard mild things about politics when I was there (long time ago: Breakup of the USSR, etc)
but that kind of knowledge is very superficial, in many ways like the Americocentricity of Americans on a greater scale.
Almost everyone watched Olympics, and it's not superficial.
They had people analyzing situation when the torrorism happened and bought rights to CNN broadcasting to share it with the entire country.
People actually cared about the US election because it actually affects China to some degree.
1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars.
Ok, if you say it's 1992, I'll believe you. The point is, they stopped doing it.
It is. I found it interesting that China had nothing to say about Iraq other than the official line. It was certainly weaker than Russia and by far weaker than the objections of France and Germany. Over North Korea China largely acquiesces with American policy. On Venezuala, Sri Lanka, Israel, most issues in the world the Chinese government has nothing to say. Not that I am saying that they should, but it's reflective of their voice in the world nonetheless.
They didn't say anything about Iraq because they didn't want to fuck with the States because Iraq is no good to China. When it comes to Taiwan, China didn't back down to the States. Did they?
Americans do not hate Germans, Japanese or Italians.
What about Iraqis?
Try to have a Chinaman shout on the streets of Beijing: The communist government is evil. I've known people put in prison for that.
If you do that in the U.S., they'll just classify you as a potential terrorist and you get taken away as well.
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On March 16 2005 10:45 mindspike wrote:
Moltke, the evidence you have provided are all consequences of the Chinese political landscape.
There are arabs that want to kill every single American they see....does that mean I should label them all as barbarians??
What is more throughly shocking is that you once lived in China and now that you are no longer there you smite your fellow bretheren. Its like some impoverished African American kid from Compton that makes it big in Hollywood and then turns around and makes fun of everyone he used to know for being poor and destitute. Not cool. You, sir, are a sellout.
I don't know anything about Arabs, nor do I subscribe to what I see on CNN. You talk about the power of institutions. Let me ask you: who adopted those institutions? Every country is ultimately responsible for her own political character, whether it be monarchial, oligarchial or democratic.
I have no clue what you're talking about with the barbarian labelling. The word barbarian originally meant a person who did not speak Greek. As far as Greek civilization has been inherited by Europe, sure, you can use the word barbarian to label anyone who is non-European. But I have never used it this way, nor have I used the word at all.
Well, "sir", I'm glad that you can pinpoint my motives so well. In fact, with you explaining me to myself, why do I need to comment at all?
But consider: If I wanted to feel big, why would I dislike my own race/country?
I have no idea why people keep trying to probing into the darker side of potential motives without even stopping to consider whether I might have legitimate reasons to think the West is better than East.Debate the issues, not the person. Thank you.
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On March 16 2005 11:16 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +Yes, I heard mild things about politics when I was there (long time ago: Breakup of the USSR, etc)
but that kind of knowledge is very superficial, in many ways like the Americocentricity of Americans on a greater scale. Almost everyone watched Olympics, and it's not superficial. They had people analyzing situation when the torrorism happened and bought rights to CNN broadcasting to share it with the entire country. People actually cared about the US election because it actually affects China to some degree. Show nested quote +1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Ok, if you say it's 1992, I'll believe you. The point is, they stopped doing it. Show nested quote +It is. I found it interesting that China had nothing to say about Iraq other than the official line. It was certainly weaker than Russia and by far weaker than the objections of France and Germany. Over North Korea China largely acquiesces with American policy. On Venezuala, Sri Lanka, Israel, most issues in the world the Chinese government has nothing to say. Not that I am saying that they should, but it's reflective of their voice in the world nonetheless. They didn't say anything about Iraq because they didn't want to fuck with the States because Iraq is no good to China. When it comes to Taiwan, China didn't back down to the States. Did they? What about Iraqis? Show nested quote +Try to have a Chinaman shout on the streets of Beijing: The communist government is evil. I've known people put in prison for that. If you do that in the U.S., they'll just classify you as a potential terrorist and you get taken away as well.
Everyone cared about the American elections. But how many Chinese people have a nuanced opinion of American politics? You might argue that no American follows Chinese politics, but really, what is there to follow in China?
Your point about Taiwan/Iraq proves my point about sinocentricity entirely. The Chinese had nothing to say about Iraq because it is a foreign country not many Chinese people know anything about. Taiwan is however regarded as a part of China. The Chinese are willing to defer to other states on international issues but not internal issues. Political freedom, human rights, taiwan are all issues on which China does not give a damn what George bush says. On Iraq, Israel even North Korea the Chinese don't move a finger's worth of effort either way.
Oh and thousands of people protest against Bush in the United States every month.
What about Iraqis?
I don't think Americans hate Iraqis either. Americans are not that way, even though there is a minority of nationalists who will hate anything and anyone who thinks contrary to the Greatness of the United States, whether they be Iraqis or Frenchmen or Liberals. The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice.
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Did any other nation try to stop the States from invading Iraq? No. They don't think it is a good idea to attack Iraq, but they aren't going to send men to help Iraq for the hell of it.
If you know your history, China sent thousands even millions of soldiers to help North Korea, and they drove back the U.S. and that's why there are South and North Korea.
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The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice.
They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN.
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Show nested quote +I live in Ontario, the people who try to speak Chinese speak it badly and cannot pronounce it at all. My former step-father took Chinese lessons for years and I hate to say it but he sucks. Where in Ontario?
On March 16 2005 10:59 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 10:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Frequent uses of "foreigner" (I cannot type the characters) I've encountered among Chinese (in rough translation):
"We are Chinese people, we do not do things the as foreigners do."
"That is the foreigner way of thinking"
etc.
The term "foreigner" literally means the same thing as the English word "foreigner", but it is not the same. I have no idea what you are referring to and I speak fluent Chinese. Find the phrase online or type it in pinyin if you can't type Chinese to prove your statement accurate.
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On March 16 2005 11:28 Cambium wrote:
Did any other nation try to stop the States from invading Iraq? No. They don't think it is a good idea to attack Iraq, but they aren't going to send men to help Iraq for the hell of it.
If you know your history, China sent thousands even millions of soldiers to help North Korea, and their drove back the U.S. and that's why there are South and North Korea.
It's not a issue of taking sides. No one in France, Germany or Russia will take Iraq's side against the United Staes. However who led the diplomatic counter-offensive against America? Chirac. Did China say anything apart from they didn't think it would be a good idea? Inversely, would the United States have really cared if China vehemently opposed the war but France and Germany backed it? I think not. France and Germany did not stop the war, but they caused considerable political embarassment to the United States and were the bulwark of the entire anti-war movement.
Chinese intervention in N Korea happened a long time ago, in more daring times. Would China assist N Korea in a second Korean war? I think not.
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On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN.
Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is.
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If China were to attack Taiwan, is any country going to actually stop China from doing it?
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On March 16 2005 11:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN. Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is.
Like you said, that's before 1992, get with the time.
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On March 16 2005 11:38 Cambium wrote:
If China were to attack Taiwan, is any country going to actually stop China from doing it?
I have no idea. American foreign policy changes from president to president. All I can say is if China wants to attack taiwan, better to wait for a democrat to get in office.
But again, Taiwan is seen by China as its 29th province, an internal matter which gives the island a unique place in the context of her "foreign" policy: the problem being many other powers recognize Taiwan as an independent political entity and China does not.
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On March 16 2005 11:38 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN. Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is. Like you said, that's before 1992, get with the time.
Only a year ago or so, the Chinese government objected in the strongest terms to the Japanese PM visiting the graves of so-called Japanese war criminals. I don't see it having passed entirely. Besides, there was that amusing Chinese guy who posted on these boards a few months ago, we want peace or something who made with silly anti-JApanese rhetoric. I don't think its credible to believe that within 10 years time, China has decided to forgive and forget.
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1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars.
Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past?
The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues.
I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist.
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Feelthemoment, take over for me, I'm really tired and I have stuff to do today. I'll post again tonight if I have time -__-
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On March 16 2005 11:43 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:38 Cambium wrote:On March 16 2005 11:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN. Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is. Like you said, that's before 1992, get with the time. Only a year ago or so, the Chinese government objected in the strongest terms to the Japanese PM visiting the graves of so-called Japanese war criminals. I don't see it having passed entirely. Besides, there was that amusing Chinese guy who posted on these boards a few months ago, we want peace or something who made with silly anti-JApanese rhetoric. I don't think its credible to believe that within 10 years time, China has decided to forgive and forget.
Do you pray fro Hitler?
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On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:Show nested quote +1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist.
Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure.
I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing....
Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue.
And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense.
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You are using your personal experience to support your arguement, which is not true. I simply state it out. I am not saying you are not capable to make judgement, I am saying your judgement or the proof lead to your judgement is wrong.
There are lot of things you weren't aware of. Say China is trying to make Taiwan her 35th province, instead of 29th? Well I guess you don't care about it neither. You probably don't even care what you've posted so I'd rather speak to someone who does care.
By the way please make sure your mom know about your opionion towards China.
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On March 16 2005 12:10 FeelTheMoment wrote:
You are using your personal experience to support your arguement, which is not true. I simply state it out. I am not saying you are not capable to make judgement, I am saying your judgement or the proof lead to your judgement is wrong.
There are lot of things you weren't aware of. Say China is trying to make Taiwan her 35th province, instead of 29th? Well I guess you don't care about it neither. You probably don't even care what you've posted so I'd rather speak to someone who does care.
By the way please make sure your mom know about your opionion towards China.
Your conclusions are pretty clear: my judgements are wrong, but your argument involves guessing about my past? On what basis are they wrong then, besides trumping your judgement over mine.
Taiwan is China's 29th province. The semi-autonomous territories of China don't count as provinces.
Leave my mother out of this -_-
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Taiwan would be one of those semi-autonomous territory instead of a province. However those SATs are province-level.
It was not guessing, you stated in your previous post and I just pointed it out. Please get your logical ability and your facts straight before arguing with me. Thanks. I will work on my English at the same time
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EPT
