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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Bleh, hopefully they're all talk. Unfortunately, the Chinese government would be the type to go through with it. T.T
China Enacts Law to Stop Taiwan Secession
Sunday, March 13, 2005
BEIJING - China's national legislature on Monday overwhelmingly approved a law authorizing a military attack to stop Taiwan from pursuing formal independence, a day after President Hu Jintao told the 2.5 million-member People's Liberation Army to be prepared for war.
The measure was approved by a vote of 2,896 to zero, with two abstentions on the last day of the figurehead National People's Congress' annual session.
"We shall step up preparations for possible military struggle and enhance our capabilities to cope with crises, safeguard peace, prevent wars and win the wars if any," the official Xinhua News Agency quoted Hu as saying Sunday.
Hu's comments, made to military delegates at the national legislature, appeared aimed at underlining Beijing's determination to unify with democratically ruled Taiwan, which split from the Chinese mainland in 1949.
Also Sunday, Hu was appointed as chairman of the government's Central Military Commission, a largely symbolic move that capped a generational transfer of power. He already heads a parallel party commission that runs China's military.
Hu, 62, has shown no sign of diverging from former President Jiang Zemin's hard-line stance toward Taiwan, a democratically ruled island that Beijing insists is part of the communist mainland.
The two sides split in a civil war more than 50 years ago, and Beijing has long threatened to invade if Taipei takes formal steps toward independence.
The anti-secession law passed Monday is aimed at discouraging self-ruled Taiwan, which Beijing claims as its territory, from making its de facto independence permanent.
"We must ... always place the task of defending national sovereignty, security and territorial integrity and safeguarding the interests of national development above anything else," Xinhua quoted Hu as telling military delegates to the congress.
Delegates to the NPC burst into applause after the approval of the law, shown live on national television.
"This law ... represents the people's determination not to allow Taiwan to be separated from China by any means or any excuses," said Wu Bangguo, China's No. 2 leader and chairman of the parliament.
Taiwan's government has condemned the law, saying it risks raising tensions. The United States also appealed to China not to enact the measure.
Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian has said it "enables China to unilaterally decide Taiwan's future and ignore that Taiwanese have the right to choose a democratic and free lifestyle."
The United States would be Taiwan's most likely defender if China attacked. Washington is lobbying strongly against European Union plans to lift a 15-year-old arms embargo against China, arguing that high-tech European weapons might be used against Taiwanese or U.S. forces.
Hu replaced Jiang as Communist Party leader in 2002 and as president the next year, as power passed to a new generation of Chinese leaders. He succeeded Jiang as head of the party's military commission in September.
Analysts say Jiang, 78, still exerts influence, but not to the extent that his predecessor, Deng Xiaoping, did after retiring from his government posts. Deng was considered China's paramount leader until his death in 1997.
Unlike earlier Chinese leaders who were revered as heroes of the 1949 communist revolution, neither Hu nor Jiang has military experience.
The Communist Party newspaper People's Daily said Sunday that the anti-secession law "shows the Chinese people's common will and firm determination of safeguarding territorial integrity and sovereignty and absolutely does not allow Taiwan independence forces to separate Taiwan from China by any name or by any means."
Jiang, a former Shanghai mayor, was chosen to head the party in 1989 in the tumult that followed the military crackdown on pro-democracy protests centered on Tiananmen Square in Beijing.
He served as president from 1993-2003. During his leadership, China boomed economically even as it remained an authoritarian one-party political system.
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Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan.
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It's not going to happen. They are just saying it so Taiwan wouldn't try to declare independence.
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On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan.
They could've attacked that island years ago, but they didn't. They are happy with the way things are right now.
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On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan.
Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On March 13 2005 19:04 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. They could've attacked that island years ago, but they didn't. They are happy with the way things are right now.
Well, they were happy with Taiwan being basically indepent, just not FORMALLY, and I think Taiwanese are relatively happy (this is just a guess, if anyone here is actually from Taiwan, please correct me) with being independent, just not formally... but if Taiwan were to make that push, I think China would push back. 
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On March 13 2005 19:06 EvilTeletubby wrote: but if Taiwan were to make that push, I think China would push back.
Exactly, I'll quote something:
大陆将领﹕台不「独」我不打
I'll translate it,
Chinese Leaders: As long as Taiwan does not declare independence [formally], we will not attack.
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The Taiwanese arent suicidal, they weren't going to be declaring independence anytime soon; this just seems like posturing on the part of the chinese. Anyway it wouldnt be worth it for us to defend Taiwan at this point...its not like China can be called communist anymore.
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On March 13 2005 19:09 LeJester wrote:
The Taiwanese arent suicidal, they weren't going to be declaring independence anytime soon; this just seems like posturing on the part of the chinese. Anyway it wouldnt be worth it for us to defend Taiwan at this point...its not like China can be called communist anymore.
So American foreign policy should be based on whether a country is considered communist or not in the oval office? Isn't that what has been wrong with American foreign policy since 1917?
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On March 13 2005 19:12 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 19:09 LeJester wrote:
The Taiwanese arent suicidal, they weren't going to be declaring independence anytime soon; this just seems like posturing on the part of the chinese. Anyway it wouldnt be worth it for us to defend Taiwan at this point...its not like China can be called communist anymore. So American foreign policy should be based on whether a country is considered communist or not in the oval office? Isn't that what has been wrong with American foreign policy since 1917?
I think his last sentence should be ignored.
He makes a good point with the U.S. probably won't defend Taiwan (as much) -__-
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On March 13 2005 19:12 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 19:09 LeJester wrote:
The Taiwanese arent suicidal, they weren't going to be declaring independence anytime soon; this just seems like posturing on the part of the chinese. Anyway it wouldnt be worth it for us to defend Taiwan at this point...its not like China can be called communist anymore. So American foreign policy should be based on whether a country is considered communist or not in the oval office? Isn't that what has been wrong with American foreign policy since 1917?
What I meant was simply that the old justification for us having a heavy military investment in Taiwan is long gone, I wasn't saying that our Cold War policy was an effective one.
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Some of you yongsters are confused.
Communism is an ideology. However there haven't been a single "communist" state that has been a true communist state. They are in practical terms ruled by a dictator or despots. I think it's just plain wrong to acknowledge those states as communist states
Let's just say that some communists are more equal than others...
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China can't afford to go to war against Taiwan, that would involve fighting against the US which they cannot beat and they would lose the US for trade and since the US is a major importer of their products, the Chinese economy would plunge.
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As far as I know, Taiwan functions as an independent nation up to this date, but slowly it is losing its international status. Now Taiwan is treated mere as a subsidiary of the communist China, as opposed to a independent, sovernign nation. As a Taiwanese, I feel that we should have the right to decide what to do with our future, as opposed to being restricted by some funny law that another regime has made up.
1. If the Koreans can have two different nations because of different political beliefs, why can't it be so with the Chinese?
2. And besides, I strongly disagree with the fact that communist China is in a way, threatening Taiwanese people not to act a certain way(opting for independence) on the grounds of national unity. The fact is that China and Taiwan parted their ways ever since 1949, they were never united together ever since. Now they're treating Taiwan as part of their territory and is subject to the jurisdiction of Communist Chinese laws - to me this is simply absurd.
Ever since the 1970's, Communist China stripped Taiwan's priviledge as a nation and it's international recognition slowly. First they forced Taiwan out of the United Nations (Reason being that the Communist China is the "real" Chinese government), then they're saying that there is only one China, and it is the Communist "Red" China (which it clearly isn't). AND THE FUNNY THING IS THAT EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD AGREED WITH THEM.
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anyways, yeah US > North Korea and China > Taiwan
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On March 13 2005 19:33 KH1031 wrote:
As far as I know, Taiwan functions as an independent nation up to this date, but slowly it is losing its international status. Now Taiwan is treated mere as a subsidiary of the communist China, as opposed to a independent, sovernign nation. As a Taiwanese, I feel that we should have the right to decide what to do with our future, as opposed to being restricted by some funny law that another regime has made up.
1. If the Koreans can have two different nations because of different political beliefs, why can't it be so with the Chinese?
2. And besides, I strongly disagree with the fact that communist China is in a way, threatening Taiwanese people not to act a certain way(opting for independence) on the grounds of national unity. The fact is that China and Taiwan parted their ways ever since 1949, they were never united together ever since. Now they're treating Taiwan as part of their territory and is subject to the jurisdiction of Communist Chinese laws - to me this is simply absurd.
Ever since the 1970's, Communist China stripped Taiwan's priviledge as a nation and it's international recognition slowly. First they forced Taiwan out of the United Nations (Reason being that the Communist China is the "real" Chinese government), then they're saying that there is only one China, and it is the Communist "Red" China (which it clearly isn't). AND THE FUNNY THING IS THAT EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD AGREED WITH THEM.
Yes. To be fair, the nationalist government in Taiwan until then claimed sovereignty over China at a time when they lost control of the mainland for over two decades and had no prospects of getting it back. Until the 70s Taiwan held China's seat in the UN including the security council even though it had absolutely no credibility in claiming to represent China. Of course international opinion is important. There is a charming residue of anti-communist sentiment in American idealism which favours Taiwan. However this is only by virtue of it occuring in China. One can only remember what the Americans did the last time their own states tried to seceed from their union.
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On March 13 2005 19:32 cAtAcLySmIc wrote:
China can't afford to go to war against Taiwan, that would involve fighting against the US which they cannot beat and they would lose the US for trade and since the US is a major importer of their products, the Chinese economy would plunge.
Its a 2 way street. All those negatives apply to us also.
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On March 13 2005 19:48 LeJester wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 19:32 cAtAcLySmIc wrote:
China can't afford to go to war against Taiwan, that would involve fighting against the US which they cannot beat and they would lose the US for trade and since the US is a major importer of their products, the Chinese economy would plunge. Its a 2 way street. All those negatives apply to us also.
Not to mention the strategic importance of international economy in war time is highly overrated.
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun.
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On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun.
If it hasn't begun, why are you predicting it? Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power. China lacks the intellectual, cultural and moral prestiege which have been paramount to Germany, France, England or the United States' claims to fame. Don't confuse the trends of the present for long term consequences, as the myopic are wont to do. Presently China is following the world, she leads the way in nothing. China is a breeding ground of imitators along western models of success, at which they excell. Whether anything which is generated from China herself will ever reach such an internationally prestigious status has yet to be proven. Furthermore the concept of superpowerdom is a consequence of 1945, a mentality the internal-minded Chinese are not for the present interested in.
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On March 13 2005 19:24 Luhh wrote:
Some of you yongsters are confused.
Communism is an ideology. However there haven't been a single "communist" state that has been a true communist state. They are in practical terms ruled by a dictator or despots. I think it's just plain wrong to acknowledge those states as communist states
Let's just say that some communists are more equal than others...
True. And I could say there has been no capitalists state. I don't ever see the point in saying either. 
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it's just too bad. both sides aiming for something they all know the other side wont accept.
if only they can sign a treaty of non-aggression, non-declaration of independence over next few years and focus more on economic developments, everyone would be better off, but clearly neither side wish to compromise.
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On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
You have no idea wtf you are talking about so 
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HnR)hT
United States3468 Posts
On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun. If it hasn't begun, why are you predicting it?
Because China has the raw production manpower, a substantial and rising global economic influence, one of the most efficient systems of education in the world, and an ethnic and cultural oneness which reinforces a sense of duty and kinship for all Chinese at home and abroad. That the USA is in crushing national debt, a large part of which is to China, doesn't help matters much.
Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power.
First, how do you arrive at the conclusion that Russia was more imposing 100 years ago than China is now? Second, not considering the USSR a "hegemonious power" is absurd.
China lacks the intellectual, cultural and moral prestiege which have been paramount to Germany, France, England or the United States' claims to fame.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this.
Don't confuse the trends of the present for long term consequences, as the myopic are wont to do. Presently China is following the world, she leads the way in nothing. China is a breeding ground of imitators along western models of success, at which they excell.
That's ridiculous.
Whether anything which is generated from China herself will ever reach such an internationally prestigious status has yet to be proven. Furthermore the concept of superpowerdom is a consequence of 1945, a mentality the internal-minded Chinese are not for the present interested in.
Indeed, China has been biding its time for several millenia, and waiting a few hundred years is nothing on this scale. Nevertheless I believe the current geopolitical and technological state of the world looks increasingly opportune for China's ascendancy.
edit: fucked up with the quote brackets
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I'm going to bed, and I actually read everything ppl said.
I'll end my day with this, if Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. If Taiwan keeps things the way they are, everyone will be happy.
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On March 13 2005 21:43 Cambium wrote:
I'm going to bed, and I actually read everything ppl said.
I'll end my day with this, if Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. If Taiwan keeps things the way they are, everyone will be happy.
If things keep the way they are now( no independence, no war), China will take over Taiwan sooner or later. That is what the taiwanese people are afraid i believe. Say around 20-30 years from now, the time when China's economic power and internationl influence that rivals the U.S.A, do u think the world will care if China attack Taiwan? Sure, there will be some Anti-war protests going on, but that is it. Heck, do u think the world will care if the U.S.A invade some small third world nations right now?
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On March 13 2005 22:10 ky[Z] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 21:43 Cambium wrote:
I'm going to bed, and I actually read everything ppl said.
I'll end my day with this, if Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. If Taiwan keeps things the way they are, everyone will be happy. If things keep the way they are now( no independence, no war), China will take over Taiwan sooner or later. That is what the taiwanese people are afraid i believe. Say around 20-30 years from now, the time when China's economic power and internationl influence that rivals the U.S.A, do u think the world will care if China attack Taiwan? Sure, there will be some Anti-war protests going on, but that is it. Heck, do u think the world will care if the U.S.A invade some small third world nations right now?
I agree. Sort of like Hitler in WW2 when he takes over some countries or some specific groups of peoples and no one cares.
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On March 13 2005 22:10 ky[Z] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 21:43 Cambium wrote:
I'm going to bed, and I actually read everything ppl said.
I'll end my day with this, if Taiwan declares independence, China will attack. If Taiwan keeps things the way they are, everyone will be happy. If things keep the way they are now( no independence, no war), China will take over Taiwan sooner or later. That is what the taiwanese people are afraid i believe. Say around 20-30 years from now, the time when China's economic power and internationl influence that rivals the U.S.A, do u think the world will care if China attack Taiwan? Sure, there will be some Anti-war protests going on, but that is it. Heck, do u think the world will care if the U.S.A invade some small third world nations right now?
Ok, not in bed yet, but...
I agree, China will invade (more like engulf, if it's 30 years from now) eventually, but there isn't much Taiwan can do. Declaring indepence right now is probably the best time because China is busy with its Olympics (and that's why they passed the Taiwan bill, to prevent Taiwan from separating too early, at least that's what I think), and rely on the U.S. for support. The problem is, the States don't really want to fuck with China either because of both nations' import and export, if the States had to choose, they'd probably lean towards China (what's Taiwan good for relative to China). So say Taiwan declares independence, China lets everything sit for a while, then after 2008, they'll attack. Once the war is initiated, they will not pull back until they gain control of Taiwan.
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Yes, things are looking grim for the Taiwanese and they are desperate to do something right now. It seems as a now or never situation for them. If war really happened beween China and Taiwan, that is really a sad day for all Chinese. I just wish things remain the way now and hope China and Taiwan can be united through negotiation.
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[QUOTE]On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun.[/QUOTE]
Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power.
100 years ago Russia lost to Japan. Bloody Sunday, etc. Russia, seemed, to be losing its influence in European affiars and 'sinking' back into more Asian affiars. Sure nations feared Russia out of its potential. Great land mass and millions in population. But I think most European diplomats saw how russia was becoming less and less of a player as time went on. They got humilated in the Crimean War (1856) and they were the first European Power to lose a war to a non-European Power in a long, long time. The Great Reforms of Alexander II era all failed except emancipation, which was a failure anyways. Russia basically could not keep up economically or industrially with the West.
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Chinas being a real dick to the U.S economy and many of the neighboring asian countires also. Many other countires have also asked china to reform their currency, but china has refused.
Due to large export and imports from china the yuan has been in high demand. The yuan should appreciate but its not. China pegs the yuan to the dollar at a fixed rate. To keep it the same rate China buys other countires money.
Recent rumors says that U.S economists are extremly scared that China will release their bought U.S money back into the U.S, which will cause major inflation.
News Article
A quick google search can tell the full effect of Chians currency problems.
ARgg i hate China. Im from Taiwan
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jesus please.. china is too nice.. they shoulda attacked taiwan a long time ago.. now please do what you gotta do and get this issue over with. Whats USA gonna do? goto war with China over Taiwan? give me a break.
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On March 13 2005 23:10 Hydrolisko wrote:
jesus please.. china is too nice.. they shoulda attacked taiwan a long time ago.. now please do what you gotta do and get this issue over with. Whats USA gonna do? goto war with China over Taiwan? give me a break.
stop talking out of your ass
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On March 13 2005 23:18 tiffany wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 23:10 Hydrolisko wrote:
jesus please.. china is too nice.. they shoulda attacked taiwan a long time ago.. now please do what you gotta do and get this issue over with. Whats USA gonna do? goto war with China over Taiwan? give me a break. stop talking out of your ass
huh? can u give me a more intelligent response than that so I can at least reply to what you have to say?... >.<
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kekeke, about time to own those fuckers.. But seriously, this is never going to happen as long as Taiwan don't fuck with the Olympics.
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"Because China has the raw production manpower, a substantial and rising global economic influence, one of the most efficient systems of education in the world, and an ethnic and cultural oneness which reinforces a sense of duty and kinship for all Chinese at home and abroad. That the USA is in crushing national debt, a large part of which is to China, doesn't help matters much.
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Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power.
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Roughly translated. The chinese have a lock on the farming of MMORPG cash and will explode into an economical powerhouse when they sell you and your kids WoW gold!
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On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics.
And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now.
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On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun. If it hasn't begun, why are you predicting it? Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power. China lacks the intellectual, cultural and moral prestiege which have been paramount to Germany, France, England or the United States' claims to fame. Don't confuse the trends of the present for long term consequences, as the myopic are wont to do. Presently China is following the world, she leads the way in nothing. China is a breeding ground of imitators along western models of success, at which they excell. Whether anything which is generated from China herself will ever reach such an internationally prestigious status has yet to be proven. Furthermore the concept of superpowerdom is a consequence of 1945, a mentality the internal-minded Chinese are not for the present interested in.
And the rubbish you sprout gets even worse. Russia at the start of the 20th century was imploding. The crimean war, ruso-japanese naval exchange coupled with internal unrest led to Russia's destablization and later collapse. I won't even bother with the rest of your points.
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United States33408 Posts
On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan.
I'd like to point out that drone is a communist, for everyone's information
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Well, cba to read what anyone of you have said but what ever. =)
Anyway, it's totally understable why China is doing this, if you don't understand think about it from their point of view. What if one of your countrys cities wanted to form their own nation? I bet you wouldn't allow it, Taiwan is a little bit different of course. And I also understand Taiwans point of view, it's a fucking hard situation "heh".
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saw it today on the news, but since i hardly know eastern asia politics i cant comment on it
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
On March 14 2005 04:34 drc wrote:
Well, cba to read what anyone of you have said but what ever. =)
Anyway, it's totally understable why China is doing this, if you don't understand think about it from their point of view. What if one of your countrys cities wanted to form their own nation? I bet you wouldn't allow it, Taiwan is a little bit different of course. And I also understand Taiwans point of view, it's a fucking hard situation "heh".
Well, that would be one thing if they suddenly wanted to break off, but Taiwan has been basically independent for a long time now, and I really really don't think the citizens either consider themselves Chinese nor are looking forward to it.
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On March 13 2005 20:54 HnR)hT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I\'ve said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun. If it hasn\'t begun, why are you predicting it? Because China has the raw production manpower, a substantial and rising global economic influence, one of the most efficient systems of education in the world, and an ethnic and cultural oneness which reinforces a sense of duty and kinship for all Chinese at home and abroad. That the USA is in crushing national debt, a large part of which is to China, doesn\'t help matters much. Show nested quote + Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power. First, how do you arrive at the conclusion that Russia was more imposing 100 years ago than China is now? Second, not considering the USSR a \"hegemonious power\" is absurd. Show nested quote +China lacks the intellectual, cultural and moral prestiege which have been paramount to Germany, France, England or the United States\' claims to fame. I\'m not entirely sure what you mean by this. Show nested quote +Don\'t confuse the trends of the present for long term consequences, as the myopic are wont to do. Presently China is following the world, she leads the way in nothing. China is a breeding ground of imitators along western models of success, at which they excell. That\'s ridiculous. Show nested quote +Whether anything which is generated from China herself will ever reach such an internationally prestigious status has yet to be proven. Furthermore the concept of superpowerdom is a consequence of 1945, a mentality the internal-minded Chinese are not for the present interested in. Indeed, China has been biding its time for several millenia, and waiting a few hundred years is nothing on this scale. Nevertheless I believe the current geopolitical and technological state of the world looks increasingly opportune for China\'s ascendancy. edit: fucked up with the quote brackets
First, how do you arrive at the conclusion that Russia was more imposing 100 years ago than China is now?
For several reasons. Because manpower mattered alot more a hundred years ago than it does today. A hundred years ago Russia possessed the fastest growing population among the powers in the great power system, triple that of the second greatest power in that system. She possessed a flanking position on Europe which proved to be a geopolitical advantage, in the early 19th century Napoleon and Tocqueville both saw Russia as becoming one of the two dominant powers of the world in the future, in the 20th century every geopolitical theorist, believing in the future dominance of a two or three superpower system included Russia among them, the only other serious candidates being America, Britain and Germany. It is not an exaggeration to say this fear (whether real or unreal) of growing Russian power had much to do with the outbreak of both World Wars, in fear that Russia would one day attain the same level of development as the west backed by superior resources and manpower. This never happened, even though Russia in 1900 was far closer to the West than China is today.
Because China has the raw production manpower, a substantial and rising global economic influence, one of the most efficient systems of education in the world, and an ethnic and cultural oneness which reinforces a sense of duty and kinship for all Chinese at home and abroad.
None of which become convincing that she will become the hegemonic power of the age. In terms of growth Japan was more impressive in the 20s-30s. The Chinese education system as I said, encourages conformity at the expense of creative thinking. There is absolutely no room for intellectual freedom which in the long run retards rather nourishes the mind. Efficiency in education says it all, where quality is lacking, how can we boast of education? Chinese nationalism really has nothing to do with the kind of expansive nationalism of the west, nor is it a thing to be boasted about among what is essentially a politically retarded people.
Second, not considering the USSR a \"hegemonious power\" is absurd.
The USSR was at best number two, a status affoarded it by the condition that every other great power was temporarily wiped out. The USSR even within its own sphere was far from hegemonious. The suppression of the 1956 Hungarian revolt we know today would not have occurred had it not be Moscow\'s understanding the Washington would not interfere. The USSR anyhow, had been in retreat since the beginning, abandoning Austria, Finland, Yugoslavia and Albania, gradually tolerating what became a hostile government in Romania, abandoning North Korea to the Chinese sphere of influence, losing China in the 60s. There is something pitiable about a hegemonious power which allows rivals to establish their armed forces on one\'s southern borders- thousands of miles away from their coasts and only hundreds away from your own cities.
I\'m not entirely sure what you mean by this. I mean throughout the modern age, certain cultures possessed the prestige which was admired and imitated by all others around the globe. French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. The number of Chinese who emigrate to North America is numerous, no one here seeks out a better life in China, etc. Now you might argue that power and prestige are two different things. What they don\'t realize is the power is a thing just as intangible and incorporeal as prestige. Power itself becomes a perception, and it is a regret that people in the West often want to see Chinese power in the context of their own great power experiences, while the Chinese are not much concerned about comparing their relative status to the rest of the world. China in her foreign policy behaves in no way like a great power, even an upcoming one. In global opinion they have less voice than Israel, Spain or Mexico. A large part of American power is evidenced by the fact that they are imitated and respected around the world (although less and less, a consequence of disastrous foreign policy by those with the mentality that dominant power should be taken for granted).
I am not much concerned about Chinese technological or economic backwardness, although they do exist. It is their intellectual and social backwardness which will be decisive in establishing whether that oriental race becomes a great nation of its own right, or simply an imitation trailing the West.
That\'s ridiculous. Which statement would you like to contest? Do you deny that China is imitating the West, which is the why she is experiencing what you hail as her economic boom, or that Chinese things are not emulated by the West at all?
Indeed, China has been biding its time for several millenia, and waiting a few hundred years is nothing on this scale. Nevertheless I believe the current geopolitical and technological state of the world looks increasingly opportune for China\'s ascendancy.
To bide its time suggests patience in anticipation of an ultimate goal. Unfortunately for most of her modern history China has been cut apart and humiliated by foreign powers, and far from the sleeping giant, revealed in the 19th century to be the greatest decaying landmass on the planet. Chinese economic and technological growth have existed for decades, not millenia. There is absolutely no reason to expect that Chinese aspirations will ever flow beyond her own borders, nor should we encourage such an expectation.
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[QUOTE]On March 13 2005 23:00 Sharkey wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun.[/QUOTE]
Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power.
100 years ago Russia lost to Japan. Bloody Sunday, etc. Russia, seemed, to be losing its influence in European affiars and 'sinking' back into more Asian affiars. Sure nations feared Russia out of its potential. Great land mass and millions in population. But I think most European diplomats saw how russia was becoming less and less of a player as time went on. They got humilated in the Crimean War (1856) and they were the first European Power to lose a war to a non-European Power in a long, long time. The Great Reforms of Alexander II era all failed except emancipation, which was a failure anyways. Russia basically could not keep up economically or industrially with the West.[/QUOTE]
My point was that it was the potential, rather than her actual power that they feared, wrongly. Bismarck wisely warned that Russia is neither as weak nor as strong as she seems. Russia incidentally was the second European power to lose a war against a non-European power in the late modern age, the first being Italy to Abyssinia, but even then, Japan (unlike say Germany) could not hope to defeat Russia, she could only do so regionally. It's true by the mid-century Russia suffered an appalling nadir in her international power since 1815, but toward the end of the century Russia's industrial growth became one of the most dynamic in Europe, which bred fears among strategic thinkers in Germany that it was better to go to war with Russia sooner than later (true both in 1914 and 1941). Industrially the Russian empire was on about the same footing as France, even though she depended on French credit. Her real retardation was the lack of education, illiteracy and social backwardness which put a cap to her potentials, a problem far more imposing than playing catchup with the west industrially. I am not arguing to exaggerate Russian power, but how her potential power became an undue fear among Europeans in the long run.
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On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now.
...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply.
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On March 14 2005 02:07 yeehaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun. If it hasn't begun, why are you predicting it? Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power. China lacks the intellectual, cultural and moral prestiege which have been paramount to Germany, France, England or the United States' claims to fame. Don't confuse the trends of the present for long term consequences, as the myopic are wont to do. Presently China is following the world, she leads the way in nothing. China is a breeding ground of imitators along western models of success, at which they excell. Whether anything which is generated from China herself will ever reach such an internationally prestigious status has yet to be proven. Furthermore the concept of superpowerdom is a consequence of 1945, a mentality the internal-minded Chinese are not for the present interested in. And the rubbish you sprout gets even worse. Russia at the start of the 20th century was imploding. The crimean war, ruso-japanese naval exchange coupled with internal unrest led to Russia's destablization and later collapse. I won't even bother with the rest of your points.
And again, the illiteracy you demonstrate is appalling. I have never been arguing that Russia, retrospectively was in a dominant position 100 years ago. Unfortunately you are talking about the consequences to events which have not yet occurred in 1905. I am talking about peoples' inabilities to see the future based on present trends, the cultivation of which often conjurs collective illusions about a certain country. Did any foreign observer in 1900 believe that the Russian empire was going to collapse in 20 years? Please do not try to bash what is only one side of a bigger argument, when you just help in proving my point.
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On March 13 2005 23:08 insaneknights wrote:Chinas being a real dick to the U.S economy and many of the neighboring asian countires also. Many other countires have also asked china to reform their currency, but china has refused. Due to large export and imports from china the yuan has been in high demand. The yuan should appreciate but its not. China pegs the yuan to the dollar at a fixed rate. To keep it the same rate China buys other countires money. Recent rumors says that U.S economists are extremly scared that China will release their bought U.S money back into the U.S, which will cause major inflation. News ArticleA quick google search can tell the full effect of Chians currency problems. ARgg i hate China. Im from Taiwan
Japan pegs it currency to the USD as well. I'm sure there are many countries that do this as well. Why do you single out China? Both China and Japan have large amounts of bought USD. Again, I'm sure many other countries do too.
If China were to release their stashes of USD and convert to euro, the impact on the US economy would be catastrophic, if they wanted to be dicks, they would do that and fuck the US over.
Economically speaking, China is much more of a powerhouse than Taiwan. In the event of the war I find it hard to believe the US would commit large amounts of troops in an all out war with China, considering China already has nukes. Anyways, I believe the fact that China possesses so much in USD will be a deterrent for the USA in the event of a war between China and Taiwan.
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Keep in mind, almost half of the population of Taiwan discourages the separation.
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On March 14 2005 08:53 0_0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 23:08 insaneknights wrote:Chinas being a real dick to the U.S economy and many of the neighboring asian countires also. Many other countires have also asked china to reform their currency, but china has refused. Due to large export and imports from china the yuan has been in high demand. The yuan should appreciate but its not. China pegs the yuan to the dollar at a fixed rate. To keep it the same rate China buys other countires money. Recent rumors says that U.S economists are extremly scared that China will release their bought U.S money back into the U.S, which will cause major inflation. News ArticleA quick google search can tell the full effect of Chians currency problems. ARgg i hate China. Im from Taiwan Japan pegs it currency to the USD as well. I'm sure there are many countries that do this as well. Why do you single out China? Both China and Japan have large amounts of bought USD. Again, I'm sure many other countries do too. If China were to release their stashes of USD and convert to euro, the impact on the US economy would be catastrophic, if they wanted to be dicks, they would do that and fuck the US over. Economically speaking, China is much more of a powerhouse than Taiwan. In the event of the war I find it hard to believe the US would commit large amounts of troops in an all out war with China, considering China already has nukes. Anyways, I believe the fact that China possesses so much in USD will be a deterrent for the USA in the event of a war between China and Taiwan.
The chance of a serious war between China and the USA is slim to none. Though the USA certainly will aid Taiwan if neccesary, but to what extent is unkown.
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I have no problem of Taiwan being independent as long as it is not being used by US and Japan as a tool and a base to limit China's development.
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On March 14 2005 09:14 FeelTheMoment wrote:
I have no problem of Taiwan being independent as long as it is not being used by US and Japan as a tool and a base to limit China's development.
That's an oximoron. The reason for the US to invest a large amount of resources in Taiwan is so that they can limit China through Taiwan. It has stuff to do with the control of the seaway or w/e and I can't be any more detailed than that because I don't know the geography.
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If and when China becomes the dominant global superpower, all those pseudo-intellectuals who bitch and moan about the current US monopoly will know what oppression really means.
I know I don't wanna live in a world dominated by a superpower without any Western background.
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My 2 Cents:
Taiwan should just keep things the way they are for now because the US is having enough trouble with its war in Iraq and generally trying to police the world... People may say that China cannot beat the US, but it's simply not true. Granted, China will never be able to invade US soil (unless something drastic happens in terms of the balance of world power...), but I doubt the US will be able to do much to stop any full scale Chinese assault on Taiwan.
As for predictions that China will become a vast superpower in the 21st Century. I highly doubt it... Yes, China has a huge population and economic potential, but potential is pretty much where it's been remaining thusfar. The Chinese have yet to prove any ability to realize their full potential. If anything I believe they'll be able to become a great economic power, but I highly doubt that will translate over to military might, which is something I believe a true "superpower" must have. China's military is simply outdated and with the way money has been allocated up until this point, I doubt China will be anything more than 4 steps behind the US in terms of applicable military technology. Of course, one can always argue brute force since I'm more than sure China has enough ICBM's to overwhelm any sort of defense the US has, but that works both ways. There won't be any major power struggles of that sort in the 21st century because it would lead to the destruction of the human race... I think the EU will eventually rise up to be a superpower greater than China will ever be...
I think the balance of power is pretty nice at the moment. Granted, the US attempts to police the world, but it's not as if no other country can check the US's actions. China is certainly one nation that can do so economically and militarily (espeically with the US's thinned military). Though I hate to admit it since I live in the country, I think the US has certainly passed its prime as a world power. It seems that we're going the way of the ancient Roman Empire.
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On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan.
there have never been communists (per definition) in any government, there are/have been maoists, stalinists, leninnists, "cheists", "castroists"... as you can only be a real communist, if you have a world-view and nothing country or person oriented...
apart from that, people with predjudices based on half-wisdom lack intelligence...
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On March 14 2005 08:59 Cambium wrote:
Keep in mind, almost half of the population of Taiwan discourages the separation.
I don't think that's the point of the argument here.
The point is the Taiwanese people's freedom to choose what they want is being infringed by laws that has been passed by another regime.
Fact: Taiwan and China parted their ways ever since 1949, each had their own regime and functions as two seperate nations.
Simply because Taiwan is not formally recognized today does not mean that Taiwan is subject to Chinese rule.
I am personally again the independence of Taiwan, yet I do not agree with the approach the communist China took.
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Gotta love people pointing out that there never was a "real" communist government and acting like they hold the intellectual high-ground because they've come to realize that.
Hey wise guys, maybe it never happened because it can't happen ? Maybe that Marx guy should have read Machiavelli and realized that people have selfish egos no matter how hard you want that not to be true ?
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On March 14 2005 09:53 m3th wrote:
My 2 Cents:
Taiwan should just keep things the way they are for now because the US is having enough trouble with its war in Iraq and generally trying to police the world... People may say that China cannot beat the US, but it's simply not true. Granted, China will never be able to invade US soil (unless something drastic happens in terms of the balance of world power...), but I doubt the US will be able to do much to stop any full scale Chinese assault on Taiwan.
As for predictions that China will become a vast superpower in the 21st Century. I highly doubt it... Yes, China has a huge population and economic potential, but potential is pretty much where it's been remaining thusfar. The Chinese have yet to prove any ability to realize their full potential. If anything I believe they'll be able to become a great economic power, but I highly doubt that will translate over to military might, which is something I believe a true "superpower" must have. China's military is simply outdated and with the way money has been allocated up until this point, I doubt China will be anything more than 4 steps behind the US in terms of applicable military technology. Of course, one can always argue brute force since I'm more than sure China has enough ICBM's to overwhelm any sort of defense the US has, but that works both ways. There won't be any major power struggles of that sort in the 21st century because it would lead to the destruction of the human race... I think the EU will eventually rise up to be a superpower greater than China will ever be...
I think the balance of power is pretty nice at the moment. Granted, the US attempts to police the world, but it's not as if no other country can check the US's actions. China is certainly one nation that can do so economically and militarily (espeically with the US's thinned military). Though I hate to admit it since I live in the country, I think the US has certainly passed its prime as a world power. It seems that we're going the way of the ancient Roman Empire.
I love the Roman analogy, even though people sometimes have a tendency to take it too far. It seems what Gibbon wrote 300 years ago about the invincibility of modern civilization is going out the window. The United States is only bringing about the nemesis to her own hubris. Still, let us not forget that Rome was succeeded by barbarism and the dark ages. What would people in our time prefer?
As much as America is at fault for her arrogance, I think it would be disastrous if a country like China were to usurp her dominance. Happily there is no prospect of that for as far as we can see.
Gotta love people pointing out that there never was a "real" communist government and acting like they hold the intellectual high-ground because they've come to realize that.
As if calling us youngsters at the beginning of the post didn't make his motives clear. I wonder how old he is -_-
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On March 14 2005 09:52 Dl33ter wrote:
If and when China becomes the dominant global superpower, all those pseudo-intellectuals who bitch and moan about the current US monopoly will know what oppression really means.
I know I don't wanna live in a world dominated by a superpower without any Western background.
Do I sense an elitist?
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On March 13 2005 23:21 Hydrolisko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 23:18 tiffany wrote:On March 13 2005 23:10 Hydrolisko wrote:
jesus please.. china is too nice.. they shoulda attacked taiwan a long time ago.. now please do what you gotta do and get this issue over with. Whats USA gonna do? goto war with China over Taiwan? give me a break. stop talking out of your ass huh? can u give me a more intelligent response than that so I can at least reply to what you have to say?... >.<
china's too nice? why does that deserve an intelligent response?
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Well... if you think about it. What happened when the South declared independence/sovereignty from the US? Instant attack. Now, I'm not saying the South was right... but right and wrong is all relative to the audience.
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On March 14 2005 08:59 Cambium wrote:
Keep in mind, almost half of the population of Taiwan discourages the separation.
actually, it's almost half of the population of Taiwan discourages the separation, IF China decides to solve this thru military actions.
very high majority of the population of Taiwan would rather see a peaceful separation, but most of them also recognize that is an unlikely ideal.
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i think they did it for the politicians. What kind of president would declare independence while risking a war? it's political sucide. Also keep in mind the recent changes in stratgetic plans from the Japan and US regarding far - east regions. Both of which had changes that now includes Taiwan as an area of concern and hints possibilities of interference, they had to do sumthing effective to counter this or the seperation movement could get new hopes.
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Holy christ Too long didn't read
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On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society.
Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means.
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On March 14 2005 18:21 LetMeBeWithYou wrote:
Holy christ Too long didn't read
Seriously man why do you waste your time to tell us that?
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MURICA15980 Posts
On March 14 2005 18:12 0_0 wrote:
Well... if you think about it. What happened when the South declared independence/sovereignty from the US? Instant attack. Now, I'm not saying the South was right... but right and wrong is all relative to the audience.
But to every single black man out there, it was wrong... although emancipation wasn't declared until after the war started. But still :O
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On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means.
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate.
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On March 14 2005 18:12 0_0 wrote:
Well... if you think about it. What happened when the South declared independence/sovereignty from the US? Instant attack. Now, I'm not saying the South was right... but right and wrong is all relative to the audience.
Oh, and the point was this:
The United States of America was a federation of states based on its very name. The issue of secession was a legal quagmire because there was been no provision for it in the constitution. Did the South have a right to seceed from the Union? In questions such as these force of arms prevail what legal disputes cannot solve. Lincoln said it himself: if he could save the Union by freeing the slaves, he would do it, and he would let the south keep their slaves if that would save the union. The problem was neither legal nor even moral, it concerned the will of states vs the will of the union in claims of sovereignty.
Why is it that China, an ancient Kingdom with a far more extensive sense of her territorial integrity than the United States in 1861 have less of a right to Taiwan than Washington had to the Southern states?
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Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today.
I think it was a couple hundred. But I agree that it has little relevance today. Kinda like the First Nations owning all of US and Canada a couple hundred years ago.
BTW: are you for Quebec seperating from Canada? Or only seperating from Canada if they Choice too? And if Quebec seperates can parts of Quebec seperate back into Canada?
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I dont know why you would want to hold onto Quebec...isn't it full of French Canadians?
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On March 14 2005 21:26 Sharkey wrote:
Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today.
I think it was a couple hundred. But I agree that it has little relevance today. Kinda like the First Nations owning all of US and Canada a couple hundred years ago.
BTW: are you for Quebec seperating from Canada? Or only seperating from Canada if they Choice too? And if Quebec seperates can parts of Quebec seperate back into Canada?
We can probably trace the period of Europe gaining a hegemony over Asia in the period of 1500-1800, the industrial revolution put Europe ahead of Asia certainly. What annoys me is when Chinese people (and since I am an immigrant of that country I have heard it enough times to nauseate me) claim their cultural superiority on the basis on the first to invent gun powder or printing, while baffling North Americans who don't know any better with all kinds of evidences of oriental superiority, whereas conveniently using multiculturalism and political correctness to distort reality. It has always seemed to me (at least among Chinese people here) to be a defensive kind of nationalism where the purpose is rather trying to avert impressions of inferiority both to Westerners and to themselves rather than trying to establish their superiority over other races.
Interestingly, I am all for the cultural autonomy of Quebec, but were Quebec 100% French, their referendums would have passed a long time ago. I don't like to see the breakup of stable and healthy political units, Canada included. I don't see why Quebec cannot exist in the same political unit as Canada, even if they are culturally or lingustically unique. I like the ability to drive up to Quebec without a passport (200 KM northeast of me) and experience what is probably the most European part of North America.
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On March 14 2005 21:32 LeJester wrote:
I dont know why you would want to hold onto Quebec...isn't it full of French Canadians?
Yes, and I would not want it otherwise.
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i remembered read something like this:
real world simulation result:
"if China attacks Japan now, Japan's military will last for months; if China attacks Taiwan, Taiwan at most two weeks."
sad isn't it? but if China overpowered Taiwan, i'm 100% sure you'll see guerilla fighers here and there just like US facing in Iraq now.
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On March 14 2005 21:44 HiFi wrote:
i remembered read something like this:
real world simulation result:
"if China attacks Japan now, Japan's military will last for months; if China attacks Taiwan, Taiwan at most two weeks."
sad isn't it? but if China overpowered Taiwan, i'm 100% sure you'll see guerilla fighers here and there just like US facing in Iraq now.
I doubt it. At least not on the level of Iraq. For one thing China has an internationally recognized claim to be one state with Taiwan. For another thing the view most Iraqis have of Americans as foreign conquerers who are an insult to their national pride, culture and even religion does not exist with China and Taiwan. I also simply cannot see Taiwanese going into suicide bombings, rogue beheadings or terrorism. Too much a strech. Every country is different.
I also don't see any way China could feasibly attack Japan except from air/missile strikes. China doesn't have a blue water navy sufficient to master the sea of Japan and launch an invasion army.
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On March 14 2005 21:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:32 LeJester wrote:
I dont know why you would want to hold onto Quebec...isn't it full of French Canadians? Yes, and I would not want it otherwise.
Well not that I would know, but I've always assumed that French Canadians are smelly and arrogant and snobbish. Also they probably wear funny hats.
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On March 14 2005 21:08 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:12 0_0 wrote:
Well... if you think about it. What happened when the South declared independence/sovereignty from the US? Instant attack. Now, I'm not saying the South was right... but right and wrong is all relative to the audience. Oh, and the point was this: The United States of America was a federation of states based on its very name. The issue of secession was a legal quagmire because there was been no provision for it in the constitution. Did the South have a right to seceed from the Union? In questions such as these force of arms prevail what legal disputes cannot solve. Lincoln said it himself: if he could save the Union by freeing the slaves, he would do it, and he would let the south keep their slaves if that would save the union. The problem was neither legal nor even moral, it concerned the will of states vs the will of the union in claims of sovereignty. Why is it that China, an ancient Kingdom with a far more extensive sense of her territorial integrity than the United States in 1861 have less of a right to Taiwan than Washington had to the Southern states?
wouldn't you say that the nationalists that were forced to emigrate to taiwan in the first place have the same claim to that ancient kingdom of dynasties, idioms, and culture? also you have to consider the native taiwanese people that feel no need to be a part of a nation they were never originally separated from in the first place.
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On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate.
MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one).
BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first)
27计策名称： 擒贼擒王
古人云：
挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤?
China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages.
As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language.
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Ok, what we just argued has very little to do with the current relationship between China and Taiwan.
If China attacks, China will be victorious.
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On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate.
Ok bananaman, i'm done arguing with you, obviously the only 'prestige' your eyes can see are that of the western, just some questions, how much time did you actually lived at China or and how much Canadian education did you recieve to make you think you can pass a judgement that China is in fact intellectually void?
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Osaka27149 Posts
On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate.
Time to open a newspaper buddy, and get your head out of the sand. China is a nuclear power. China has a permanent seat at he UN. China has the largest army. China has put a man in space. Type this into google: "most spoken language" and you will see that the number of people speaking Chinese is almost 2x those speaking english. China has the fastest growing economy on the globe, and gaining official recognition from the government as a tourism spot is something every country craves (including Canada who recently got it). Learning Chinese is one of the highest priorities for those business right now, as that is where the market is. Multi-cultural identity? You speak as if it is a disease, when it is an issue in most countries, including ours.
Simply said, just because the only Chinese guy you see is working the counter at your corner store does not remove the relevance of their position as the largest entity on earth.
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On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate.
The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power.
The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole.
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Besides what's the point of giving ppl Art or Literature or Classical music or Metaphysics if they still have to toil away the best part of their lives in corporate cubes or sweat shops. We 're no longer in renaisance. specialization+organization seems to be the only way for humans to progress. Well I'm not trying to make an argument here. just some random thought.
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Now most of the discussions here in this thread are beside the point. China's only trying to retain a piece of land that's close to its economic arteries, I dont see how that translates into an evil ambition to take over the world.
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On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate.
Just out of curiosity, but what would classify someone as having a multicultural mentality?
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Atleast they don't have "pretty darn good intelligence" claiming taiwain has wmds :o
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On March 14 2005 18:32 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:21 LetMeBeWithYou wrote:
Holy christ Too long didn't read Seriously man why do you waste your time to tell us that?
There is a wide belief amongst male teens who scour any and all forums that postcount is proportionate to their e-penis.
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On March 15 2005 00:36 longer_23 wrote:
Now most of the discussions here in this thread are beside the point. China's only trying to retain a piece of land that's close to its economic arteries, I dont see how that translates into an evil ambition to take over the world.
I am a secret agent from China. China is, in fact, planning in secret to take over the world. Prepare for the Asian Domination. I have already said too much....
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On March 15 2005 01:15 Servolisk wrote:
Atleast they don't have "pretty darn good intelligence" claiming taiwain has wmds :o
Ahah this made me laugh.
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On March 15 2005 01:27 DV8 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:32 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 LetMeBeWithYou wrote:
Holy christ Too long didn't read Seriously man why do you waste your time to tell us that? There is a wide belief amongst male teens who scour any and all forums that postcount is proportionate to their e-penis.
lol
my e-penis is only about 300 posts long. I think i might have come down with severe post envy =/
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On March 14 2005 06:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now. ...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply.
and irrevevelant example hello? Really, f you cant get your facts right it's better not to reply.
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On March 14 2005 06:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now. ...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply.
Besides, his reply was in response to China's current actions. Was he justified in saying so? Yes. Dont jump to conclusions.
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On March 14 2005 06:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 02:07 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 20:22 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 20:15 HnR)hT wrote:
I've said it before. China will be the dominant world superpower of the 21st century, and possibly well beyond. The growth and spread of Chinese hegemony has not even begun. If it hasn't begun, why are you predicting it? Geopolitically speaking Russia looked more imposing a hundred years ago than China today, and Russia never became a hegemonious power. China lacks the intellectual, cultural and moral prestiege which have been paramount to Germany, France, England or the United States' claims to fame. Don't confuse the trends of the present for long term consequences, as the myopic are wont to do. Presently China is following the world, she leads the way in nothing. China is a breeding ground of imitators along western models of success, at which they excell. Whether anything which is generated from China herself will ever reach such an internationally prestigious status has yet to be proven. Furthermore the concept of superpowerdom is a consequence of 1945, a mentality the internal-minded Chinese are not for the present interested in. And the rubbish you sprout gets even worse. Russia at the start of the 20th century was imploding. The crimean war, ruso-japanese naval exchange coupled with internal unrest led to Russia's destablization and later collapse. I won't even bother with the rest of your points. And again, the illiteracy you demonstrate is appalling. I have never been arguing that Russia, retrospectively was in a dominant position 100 years ago. Unfortunately you are talking about the consequences to events which have not yet occurred in 1905. I am talking about peoples' inabilities to see the future based on present trends, the cultivation of which often conjurs collective illusions about a certain country. Did any foreign observer in 1900 believe that the Russian empire was going to collapse in 20 years? Please do not try to bash what is only one side of a bigger argument, when you just help in proving my point.
You said Russia looked more imposing. And I argued it to be false. Russia back then has already lost most of its prestige. Nobody predicted that the Russian empire was going to collapse in 20 yrs, but they could see that Russia was on a decline. Please do not put mouths in my mouth, it only helps to prove my point.
Constrast to China, who is on the ascendancy. China's economy is growing, international recognition is more forthcoming, etc etc
Thanks for sidestepping my point and wailing about how I was arguing that Russia was in a dominant position 100 years ago. Please dont take a select portion of my words out of context. It makes for bad arguments.
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On March 14 2005 22:59 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. Time to open a newspaper buddy, and get your head out of the sand. China is a nuclear power. China has a permanent seat at he UN. China has the largest army. China has put a man in space. Type this into google: "most spoken language" and you will see that the number of people speaking Chinese is almost 2x those speaking english. China has the fastest growing economy on the globe, and gaining official recognition from the government as a tourism spot is something every country craves (including Canada who recently got it). Learning Chinese is one of the highest priorities for those business right now, as that is where the market is. Multi-cultural identity? You speak as if it is a disease, when it is an issue in most countries, including ours. Simply said, just because the only Chinese guy you see is working the counter at your corner store does not remove the relevance of their position as the largest entity on earth.
couldn't have said it better Mani 
EDIT: Only thing you forgot: China in the meantime has also most of the high-end weapons, whereas America still uses technics which wouldn't have been capable to compete with Europeans' and Russia's in all the years (they just have/had more Nukes and more of the rest...).
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On March 14 2005 22:28 tiffany wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:08 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 18:12 0_0 wrote:
Well... if you think about it. What happened when the South declared independence/sovereignty from the US? Instant attack. Now, I'm not saying the South was right... but right and wrong is all relative to the audience. Oh, and the point was this: The United States of America was a federation of states based on its very name. The issue of secession was a legal quagmire because there was been no provision for it in the constitution. Did the South have a right to seceed from the Union? In questions such as these force of arms prevail what legal disputes cannot solve. Lincoln said it himself: if he could save the Union by freeing the slaves, he would do it, and he would let the south keep their slaves if that would save the union. The problem was neither legal nor even moral, it concerned the will of states vs the will of the union in claims of sovereignty. Why is it that China, an ancient Kingdom with a far more extensive sense of her territorial integrity than the United States in 1861 have less of a right to Taiwan than Washington had to the Southern states? wouldn't you say that the nationalists that were forced to emigrate to taiwan in the first place have the same claim to that ancient kingdom of dynasties, idioms, and culture? also you have to consider the native taiwanese people that feel no need to be a part of a nation they were never originally separated from in the first place.
Lots of responses. I'll try to wrap this up one at a time. I didn't say whether taiwan should or should not be independent. I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of certain American nationalist think tanks who need an ideological motive for defending Taiwan. But I do think that Taiwan and China should be one state, even as China and HK are and I don't think the USA has anything to do with the business.
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On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language.
I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer?
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On March 14 2005 22:44 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. Ok bananaman, i'm done arguing with you, obviously the only 'prestige' your eyes can see are that of the western, just some questions, how much time did you actually lived at China or and how much Canadian education did you recieve to make you think you can pass a judgement that China is in fact intellectually void?
hmm Canadian education indoctrinated me toward its prejudiced philosophy of the world no doubt. This is exactly wrong. Canadian education encourages multicultural activities as much as any other, and I really have no need to narrate my private experiences and sentiments to someone who doesn't really care anyway.
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I'd just like to respond to all those who present Sun Tzu's Art of War as an example of China's intellectual heritage that would put it on par with the West's. Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you.
There can be no question whatsoever that Western history of ideas has no match in that of China. What is the chinese equivalent to ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Enlightenment ? Who's their Plato, their Pascal, their Descartes, their Rousseau, their Nietzsche, their Heidegger ? Come on.
Now, no one will deny China's huge manpower, nuclear capabilities, etc and no one will deny that it is in a position to become a dominant influence on the world. But the truth of the matter is that China, nor Islam nor any other civilization in the foreseeable future, will be able to produce a superpower as radiant as the West has produced again and again because no other civilization parallels its tremendous intellectual baggage.
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Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks.
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On March 14 2005 22:59 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. Time to open a newspaper buddy, and get your head out of the sand. China is a nuclear power. China has a permanent seat at he UN. China has the largest army. China has put a man in space. Type this into google: "most spoken language" and you will see that the number of people speaking Chinese is almost 2x those speaking english. China has the fastest growing economy on the globe, and gaining official recognition from the government as a tourism spot is something every country craves (including Canada who recently got it). Learning Chinese is one of the highest priorities for those business right now, as that is where the market is. Multi-cultural identity? You speak as if it is a disease, when it is an issue in most countries, including ours. Simply said, just because the only Chinese guy you see is working the counter at your corner store does not remove the relevance of their position as the largest entity on earth.
I don't know what you are debating specifically or point you're trying to make, so i can't make any ad hoc replies. It's true China's elevated status in 1945 to one of the five victor powers (which was at that time, a severe elevation) granted her certain degrees of political esteem. Her crack nuclear program in the 60s was also impressive given the time and limitation of resources. However let's not deceive ourselves. Of the five old nuclear powers, China's arsenal has by far the most limited capabilities. China is slimming down her army in comfomity with the "rapid reaction force" philosophy of western militaries. China is heavily dependent on Russian air and missile technology. China's army serves a very limited purpose.
The reason China is the most frequently spoken mothertongue is obvious: There are more Chinese than North Americans and Europeans combined. However if we count secondary languages, etc, more people can speak English than Chinese. When people in Germany and Mexico start speaking Chinese as a second language, I'll reconsider its status.
You know my mother said the same thing about the business deal -_-. She thinks i should be learning Mandarin instead of German and Oriental history instead of Western history. Suffice it to say market interests never entered my considerations and never will. Currently though more business is conducted in German and Spanish in terms of money than Chinese by far.
When I speak of the ailments of a multi-cultural identity I am talking about the peoples' alienation from their own cultures and histories, which is in my opinion a most important degree of self-knowledge. To give oriental, Egyptian, native American studies priority over European or American ones is to make people think abstractly, one might as well lecture them on Venice or Genoa when they don't even know anything about the World Wars or the French revolution.
I'm also quite confident I've seen more Chinese in my life time than most people here.
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On March 15 2005 07:42 Servolisk wrote:
Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks.
I'm sorry. You're right. If you'd take the Art of War over the Prince, that's fine.
And if you'd take James Redfield's The Celestine Phophecy over both of those, that's totally cool too!
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On March 15 2005 00:20 longer_23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power. The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole.
Yes, China has a high degree of national cohesion which is largely void of racial problems. What I see though is that China is an inward-looking nation relative to the European and Arab nations, which after all, possess in many ways a joint history. Not many Chinese people know much about India, Thailand or Vietnam. China is culturally united, but it is also a culturally isolated entity.
Pride is fairly universal among Chinamen, but i don't feel that it's a pride relative to this nation or that, but the consequence of the Sinocentric mentality of Chinamen. There is nothing very wrong with this, but I shun to have anything to do with this. Most Chinese would probably feel that I am some sort of national traitor that I prefer the West to the East, but with all my prejudices I can say that they are at least slightly more sophisticated ones than the ones I used to have.
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On March 15 2005 03:27 yeehaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 06:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now. ...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply. and irrevevelant example hello? Really, f you cant get your facts right it's better not to reply.
You clearly do not understand the hatred of Chinamen for nationalists fueled by incessant historical propaganda, and vice versa for Taiwan. If you don't understand the context in which I am speaking it's better to ask rather than dismiss. The point I was making was: the propaganda wars between China and Taiwan can breed idiots on both sides.
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On March 15 2005 07:42 Servolisk wrote:
Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks.
Yes, it seems to have turned out that way. The original point that people should not forecast China's hegemony got lost somewhere. I'm not trying to argue which culture I think is better, even though my personal preferences must have been long betrayed
I am simply stating that I do not see China being followed by other nations. I see rather the contrary and there is no economic statistic which will change this fact.
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On March 15 2005 08:12 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 03:27 yeehaw wrote:On March 14 2005 06:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now. ...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply. and irrevevelant example hello? Really, f you cant get your facts right it's better not to reply. You clearly do not understand the hatred of Chinamen for nationalists fueled by incessant historical propaganda, and vice versa for Taiwan. If you don't understand the context in which I am speaking it's better to ask rather than dismiss. The point I was making was: the propaganda wars between China and Taiwan can breed idiots on both sides.
the sad thing is, that is still happening between China and Taiwan. I can hardly read any positive news or comments about China in Taiwanese news media.
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On March 15 2005 06:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language. I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer?
I'll ask you this before I start: Are you Chinese?
If you aren't, then it's okay for you to not comprehend what the Chinese culture is like.
You can find a book in French, Latin, and German in your library because you live in the West side of the sphere. There is actually a Chinese section in my local library (I live in Waterloo, Ontario) and plenty of Toronto libraries have Chinese sections as well. Chinatown has plenty of Chinese books, you are probably just not familiar with them. A lot of my caucasian friends are studying Chinese right now (whether from the Internet for fun or taking a Chinese course in their universities, and yes, they exist).
What makes it fair for you to level everything from English? What if you were to ask someone in China to name a famous English writer (maybe with the exception of Shakespeare)?
Have you ever heard of a book called Romance of the Three Kingdoms?
I don't think you actually know enough about China to actually critique it.
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Well, relating to philosopy or philosophers...I'm sure u've heard of Taoism..or Confucius?
Confucius say: "you go to jail, bad boy!"...
On March 15 2005 07:36 Dl33ter wrote:
I'd just like to respond to all those who present Sun Tzu's Art of War as an example of China's intellectual heritage that would put it on par with the West's. Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you.
There can be no question whatsoever that Western history of ideas has no match in that of China. What is the chinese equivalent to ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Enlightenment ? Who's their Plato, their Pascal, their Descartes, their Rousseau, their Nietzsche, their Heidegger ? Come on.
Now, no one will deny China's huge manpower, nuclear capabilities, etc and no one will deny that it is in a position to become a dominant influence on the world. But the truth of the matter is that China, nor Islam nor any other civilization in the foreseeable future, will be able to produce a superpower as radiant as the West has produced again and again because no other civilization parallels its tremendous intellectual baggage.
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I am Chinese and I am proud of my culture. All the bullshit I've been reading in this thread will just be my motivation to keep doing my part of job to make my country better and I hope billions of my people will feel the same way.
I am also sure that us other civilizations will be thankful to all the Western products, say Slavery, WorldWars, Nazis and NuclearBombs. We will stay in peace in the line that the Western drew for us, North/South Korea, China/Twain, etc. If you don't speak our language, I am sure it doesn't matter what we think anyways.
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By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it.
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moltkewarding, you are basing your arguments primarily on what you've observed in the western world around you and your western education
has the possibility that you're being ignorant every crossed your mind?
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On March 15 2005 23:33 FeelTheMoment wrote:
f you don't speak our language, I am sure it doesn't matter what we think anyways.
*whew*
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This is quite sad, MoltkeWarding. i was migranted to another country when i was young just like you. But hey! what ever makes you tick i guess. Can you speak or read Chinese at a literal level? if not? how can you even begin to make comparisions?
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On March 15 2005 08:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 07:42 Servolisk wrote:
Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks. Yes, it seems to have turned out that way. The original point that people should not forecast China's hegemony got lost somewhere. I'm not trying to argue which culture I think is better, even though my personal preferences must have been long betrayed I am simply stating that I do not see China being followed by other nations. I see rather the contrary and there is no economic statistic which will change this fact.
When you actually gain power is when people start to notice....it doesnt go the other way around
Your cultural measuring stick seems to completely agree with this notion.
You measure cultural worth with the amount of influence it has.
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On March 15 2005 22:57 secrtagent wrote:Well, relating to philosopy or philosophers...I'm sure u've heard of Taoism..or Confucius? Confucius say: "you go to jail, bad boy!"... Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 07:36 Dl33ter wrote:
I'd just like to respond to all those who present Sun Tzu's Art of War as an example of China's intellectual heritage that would put it on par with the West's. Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you.
There can be no question whatsoever that Western history of ideas has no match in that of China. What is the chinese equivalent to ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Enlightenment ? Who's their Plato, their Pascal, their Descartes, their Rousseau, their Nietzsche, their Heidegger ? Come on.
Now, no one will deny China's huge manpower, nuclear capabilities, etc and no one will deny that it is in a position to become a dominant influence on the world. But the truth of the matter is that China, nor Islam nor any other civilization in the foreseeable future, will be able to produce a superpower as radiant as the West has produced again and again because no other civilization parallels its tremendous intellectual baggage.
LOL
But seriously, i won't even bother to counter this guy. We actually don't have any modern philosophers of qualities but that is due more to the nature of system and time in which we were living in. If you are going to bring up dead guys like Plato and Pascal then i would name you a few dead guys of our own but i'm sure you won't have a clue of what i'm going to tell you.
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On March 15 2005 19:12 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 06:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language. I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer? I'll ask you this before I start: Are you Chinese? If you aren't, then it's okay for you to not comprehend what the Chinese culture is like. You can find a book in French, Latin, and German in your library because you live in the West side of the sphere. There is actually a Chinese section in my local library (I live in Waterloo, Ontario) and plenty of Toronto libraries have Chinese sections as well. Chinatown has plenty of Chinese books, you are probably just not familiar with them. A lot of my caucasian friends are studying Chinese right now (whether from the Internet for fun or taking a Chinese course in their universities, and yes, they exist). What makes it fair for you to level everything from English? What if you were to ask someone in China to name a famous English writer ( maybe with the exception of Shakespeare)? Have you ever heard of a book called Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I don't think you actually know enough about China to actually critique it.
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Yes, I did read Chinese books back when it was my first language. I was fairly young, but I read at an adult level. Although I never read 3 Kdms. Now I can no longer read it and really cannot say that I am regretful.
Yes, you mentioned the same things as I did in your second paragraph. I was pointing out the contrast between the sheer volume of the two languages. Sometimes I feel there are more German books in our library than English. Something you can't say with Chinese.
I think its fairly safe to guess in most Eastern, non-Chinese countries there are more English than Mandarin books too.
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On March 15 2005 23:40 FeelTheMoment wrote:
By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it.
Why should I not say it? A Chinaman is to China as an Englishman is to England and a Frenchman is to France. Really, get over the sensitivity. If you're really proud as you claim you wouldn't care what variations foreigners call you.
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On March 15 2005 23:51 Pacifist wrote:
moltkewarding, you are basing your arguments primarily on what you've observed in the western world around you and your western education
has the possibility that you're being ignorant every crossed your mind?
I don't see how I am being ignorant, nor do I even think that is a sensible phrase. And you are really making a fairly simplistic argument on a subject that you are how shall I say- ignorant of. You know nothing of my observations, nor my education, nor those experiences which contribute to those opinions which you relate to ignorance.
You are right of course in saying that my experiences and observations in the West changed my attitude toward my native race. What does that prove though, beyond what is obvious? Can it be that someone who has lived in two cultures be less capable of comparison than when he lives under one? If I am not qualified to make such comparisons, who is?
You can disagree with what I think, but to opine that my personal experiences make me less qualified to judge the matter than is proper (whoever that may be) makes absolutely no sense.
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On March 14 2005 15:38 choboPEon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2005 23:21 Hydrolisko wrote:On March 13 2005 23:18 tiffany wrote:On March 13 2005 23:10 Hydrolisko wrote:
jesus please.. china is too nice.. they shoulda attacked taiwan a long time ago.. now please do what you gotta do and get this issue over with. Whats USA gonna do? goto war with China over Taiwan? give me a break. stop talking out of your ass huh? can u give me a more intelligent response than that so I can at least reply to what you have to say?... >.< china's too nice? why does that deserve an intelligent response?
An intelligent response it may not deserve, as I was speakin in a half-joking manner anyway. What I meant was for him to respond in a MORE intelligent way than he did with those 5 words, I can't exactly respond to "stop talking out of your ass". Instead he could perhaps explain why he thinks that way?...
any wow some long ass posts in this thread.
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I dont want to sound like racist. And it is not my intention to offend anyone. Of course my opinions are biased. Becouse i live in one of the cultures and i am strongly influenced by it. Well i belive that you cant call on culture superior over another. There simply is not comparison. BUt there some facts i wanted to presented. And i like to know your opinion on the matter.
How do feel with fact that you are surronded by Western culture. I bet that apart from leanguge that you are using, some cermonials in your life, objeckts of art and such things everythink you encounter is a part of western culture.
Internet, computer,electricty, cars every object made using advenced science. Matarials of which some of your cloths are made, the things you learn in phiscs and chamistry and so on. EVen the form chinsee governament is ruled. It has not chinsee orgins. Almost every thing you encounter in your life has its orgins in the west.
The fact is that eastern culture was not capeble and propably would never be capapble of making those things. Their are of western making. Even your outlock on world is strongly infulenced by the achivements of western science/culture.
I am not saying that eastern culture is somewhat worse by that. Culture cant be better or worse. I am simply asking if you recognize that fact, and how do feel about it? Knowing that you live in somme sort of mix, between west and east?
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On March 16 2005 05:13 Silvanel wrote:
How do feel with fact that you are surronded by Western culture. I bet that apart from leanguge that you are using, some cermonials in your life, objeckts of art and such things everythink you encounter is a part of western culture.
Internet, computer,electricty, cars every object made using advenced science. Matarials of which some of your cloths are made, the things you learn in phiscs and chamistry and so on. EVen the form chinsee governament is ruled. It has not chinsee orgins. Almost every thing you encounter in your life has its orgins in the west.
All these inventions are American origin, other Western countries have nothing to do with these.
American >>>> you.
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Poor newb. You have absolutly no idea of what you are talking about.
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every other western country cant even hold themselves together without american money after WWII, forget about inventing stuff
they would still living in stone age without US
actually, its been already like that after WWI
well, poor eastern europe is the exception since they just came out of stone age recently, but thats even worse
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On March 16 2005 05:13 Silvanel wrote:
I dont want to sound like racist. And it is not my intention to offend anyone. Of course my opinions are biased. Becouse i live in one of the cultures and i am strongly influenced by it. Well i belive that you cant call on culture superior over another. There simply is not comparison. BUt there some facts i wanted to presented. And i like to know your opinion on the matter.
How do feel with fact that you are surronded by Western culture. I bet that apart from leanguge that you are using, some cermonials in your life, objeckts of art and such things everythink you encounter is a part of western culture.
Internet, computer,electricty, cars every object made using advenced science. Matarials of which some of your cloths are made, the things you learn in phiscs and chamistry and so on. EVen the form chinsee governament is ruled. It has not chinsee orgins. Almost every thing you encounter in your life has its orgins in the west.
The fact is that eastern culture was not capeble and propably would never be capapble of making those things. Their are of western making. Even your outlock on world is strongly infulenced by the achivements of western science/culture.
I am not saying that eastern culture is somewhat worse by that. Culture cant be better or worse. I am simply asking if you recognize that fact, and how do feel about it? Knowing that you live in somme sort of mix, between west and east?
How do feel with fact that you are surronded by Western culture. I bet that apart from leanguge that you are using, some cermonials in your life, objeckts of art and such things everythink you encounter is a part of western culture. Yes, but that does not mean I am uncritical of Western culture. I think alot of people who live in the West, who are as cynical as me about it want to imagine an exotic oriental alternative which is in many ways better. Such illusions cannot exist for me. I also find it revolting that in many instances where Asian countries imitate the West, they imitate the worst aspects of Western culture- blue jeans and punk music, military technology and pornography. Culture and civilization are two different things. It's unfortunately true that some of the least civilized aspects of western culture are being imitated. In the OGN vods, the intro music makes me kind of sad. Not that koreans would understand such things like "motherfucker" in the music, but I can't understand such things either.
My preference however stems not from an academic discussion over cultures, but private experiences with two different breeds of people. I like people here better than I like Chinamen. This to some extent has to do with their civilizing instincts. The kind of appalling barbarism and insensitivity for human dignity i've seen in China does not yet exist here. (They are appalling only in retrospect, I do not imagine that I was any different from anyone else there), neither does the oppressive atmosphere of tyranny, which is not primarily political (which is all Western people can complain about), but rooted in the very fabric of family life and daily existance.
People say China has changed since I was there last, (I have avoided every opportunity at going back), economically and so forth, but how can the mentality of a billion people change over a span of ten years? It seems to me ridiculous.
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Canada9720 Posts
On March 16 2005 06:08 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Yes, but that does not mean I am uncritical of Western culture. I think alot of people who live in the West, who are as cynical as me about it want to imagine an exotic oriental alternative which is in many ways better. Such illusions cannot exist for me. I also find it revolting that in many instances where Asian countries imitate the West, they imitate the worst aspects of Western culture- blue jeans and punk music, military technology and pornography. Culture and civilization are two different things. It's unfortunately true that some of the least civilized aspects of western culture are being imitated. In the OGN vods, the intro music makes me kind of sad. Not that koreans would understand such things like "motherfucker" in the music, but I can't understand such things either.
My preference however stems not from an academic discussion over cultures, but private experiences with two different breeds of people. I like people here better than I like Chinamen. This to some extent has to do with their civilizing instincts. The kind of appalling barbarism and insensitivity for human dignity i've seen in China does not yet exist here. (They are appalling only in retrospect, I do not imagine that I was any different from anyone else there), neither does the oppressive atmosphere of tyranny, which is not primarily political (which is all Western people can complain about), but rooted in the very fabric of family life and daily existance.
People say China has changed since I was there last, (I have avoided every opportunity at going back), economically and so forth, but how can the mentality of a billion people change over a span of ten years? It seems to me ridiculous.
Hey..
I like bluejeans.
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Hey..
I like bluejeans.
Decent people wear greyjeans -_-
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I like punk music
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80's-style acid-washed is so the way to go.
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On March 16 2005 06:53 MoltkeWarding wrote:Decent people wear greyjeans -_-
blue jeans > all
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On March 16 2005 03:26 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 23:40 FeelTheMoment wrote:
By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it. Why should I not say it? A Chinaman is to China as an Englishman is to England and a Frenchman is to France. Really, get over the sensitivity. If you're really proud as you claim you wouldn't care what variations foreigners call you.
You knew it had a racism background and you don't feel ashamed to use it given you are a Chinese yourself?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chinaman
This kid is beyond crap.
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On March 16 2005 08:36 FeelTheMoment wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:26 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 15 2005 23:40 FeelTheMoment wrote:
By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it. Why should I not say it? A Chinaman is to China as an Englishman is to England and a Frenchman is to France. Really, get over the sensitivity. If you're really proud as you claim you wouldn't care what variations foreigners call you. You knew it had a racism background and you don't feel ashamed to use it given you are a Chinese yourself? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chinamanThis kid is beyond crap.
FeelTheMoment we all know it can be a very bad word but i'd rather not take what he said out of the context. I think he's trying to use the word to indicate all the chinese ethnics around the world while reserving the word Chinese for chinese citizens.
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United Kingdom10597 Posts
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On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Why the hell would you bash your mother country the way you did? It doesn't matter what nationality you are, you are Chinese. My family immigrated to Canada when I was just eleven, and we are now Canadians. When people ask me, "Are you Chinese?" I would never say "No, I am hypenated-Canadian."
I take pride in being Chinese, unlike you. Were you ever insulted by some retarded morons at a younger age for being Chinese and so you try to deny it as much as possible: "in character I resemble neither very much"
I have news for you, if both of your parents are Chinese, it's impossible for you to look white. You'll look Chinese.
People in Singapore speak Mandarine; people in Taiwan read and write in Chinese (Taiwanese may criticize China as a nation, but they would never insult the Chinese culture). Japanese is based on Chinese - one third of their symbols is actually Chinese, and the Old Korean was also Chinese based, and I think knowing Chinese in Korea is just like knowing Latin in an English speaking country.
I don't even know what you mean by "No one outside China has read anything Chinese". This is a faulty argument, you are generalizing way too much.
Interpretation 1: What makes you think that no one outside of China has read a Chinese book?
Interpretation 2: Whenever I return to China, I bring back tons of books and read them in my spare time.
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United Kingdom10597 Posts
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the radio was invented with the help of several different countrymen, britain, germany, italy, and the u.s. by pooling everyones contributions: maxwell, marconi, etc. it came together in the u.s. though.
as for the television, two people are largely responsible for its invention. some russian guy who came to the u.s. and farnsworth, some mormon kid who when he was 14 wrote the basic specs that would later become the t.v. also, sarnoff was the man who brought it all together as the head of rca and i think he was from russia.
the internet, i think can be declared an american achievement. the military began arpanet, then universities began networking to other univs, email first killer app etc. worked on by many people im sure from several different countries originally, but american nonetheless.
can anyone name inventions and from what country?
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On March 16 2005 09:08 Chibi[OWNS] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 08:36 FeelTheMoment wrote:On March 16 2005 03:26 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 15 2005 23:40 FeelTheMoment wrote:
By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it. Why should I not say it? A Chinaman is to China as an Englishman is to England and a Frenchman is to France. Really, get over the sensitivity. If you're really proud as you claim you wouldn't care what variations foreigners call you. You knew it had a racism background and you don't feel ashamed to use it given you are a Chinese yourself? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chinamanThis kid is beyond crap. chinaman is a man who lives in china in the same way nigger is a black man with other black homies. that means it's not necessarily an insult, and if you're using our language then you must recognise that a chinaman is a man from china and i dont give a fuck if it's used as an insult anywhere else because i fucking HATE it when people judge people based on their use of language and if one more fucking word gets censored due to retards like this i'm fgoing to start shooting people and give you a real fucking problem. who the fuck feels ashamed for using a word anyway, are you really that emotionally fragile.
I thought niggar is a publicly banned word espcially when it is used to refer to a black person. It might be ok to use it as some sort of joke but I am pretty sure what you gonna get if you say it in someone's face who has a African origin.
It does not hurt my feelings whatsoever, but if I see it is used in a post full of bias against my country I feel it is my responsability to point it out. I don't really care about what he said, apparently he doesn't know very much about China or Chinese culture.
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On March 15 2005 08:09 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 00:20 longer_23 wrote:On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power. The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole. Yes, China has a high degree of national cohesion which is largely void of racial problems. What I see though is that China is an inward-looking nation relative to the European and Arab nations, which after all, possess in many ways a joint history. Not many Chinese people know much about India, Thailand or Vietnam. China is culturally united, but it is also a culturally isolated entity. Pride is fairly universal among Chinamen, but i don't feel that it's a pride relative to this nation or that, but the consequence of the Sinocentric mentality of Chinamen. There is nothing very wrong with this, but I shun to have anything to do with this. Most Chinese would probably feel that I am some sort of national traitor that I prefer the West to the East, but with all my prejudices I can say that they are at least slightly more sophisticated ones than the ones I used to have.
MoltkeWarding you know prejudice or stereotype can really feed on itself. For example i find you enjoy using a provocative tone to solicit emotional responses, which in turn reinforces your idea of all Chinese being angry, single-minded advocates of nationalism.
A Pride can mean many different things. can be some kind of mojo that drive some aborigines against their better judgement and heavy rifle fires, or it can be some self-defensive mechanism for a 'chinaman' to hide behind for security, or maybe it's simply a mood that motivates or discourage daily activities. Anyway i never notice this 'Sinocentric mentality' as you claimed. Some Chinese emigrants have a nostalgic sentiment after long years while others dont give a damn about what happens to the old house. For the latters they simply become Canadians or Americans, pay taxes to the government, contribute to the local community, or if they like, swoon over the new culture they just find. There 're no traitors or loyalists to play unless you want to dramatize the experience yourself.
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On March 16 2005 09:10 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Why the hell would you bash your mother country the way you did? It doesn't matter what nationality you are, you are Chinese. My family immigrated to Canada when I was just eleven, and we are now Canadians. When people ask me, "Are you Chinese?" I would never say "No, I am hypenated-Canadian." I take pride in being Chinese, unlike you. Were you ever insulted by some retarded morons at a younger age for being Chinese and so you try to deny it as much as possible: "in character I resemble neither very much" I have news for you, if both of your parents are Chinese, it's impossible for you to look white. You'll look Chinese. People in Singapore speaks Mandarine; people in Taiwan read and write in Chinese ( Taiwanese may criticize China as a nation, but they would never insult the Chinese culture). Japanese is based on Chinese - one third of their symbols is actually Chinese, and the Old Korean was also Chinese based, and I think knowing Chinese in Korea is just like knowing Latin in an English speaking country. I don't even know what you mean by "No one outside China has read anything Chinese". This is a faulty argument, you are generalizing way too much. Interpretation 1: What makes you think that no one outside of China has read a Chinese book? Interpretation 2: Whenever I return to China, I bring back tons of books and read them in my spare time.
well said.
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On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 19:12 Cambium wrote:On March 15 2005 06:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language. I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer? I'll ask you this before I start: Are you Chinese? If you aren't, then it's okay for you to not comprehend what the Chinese culture is like. You can find a book in French, Latin, and German in your library because you live in the West side of the sphere. There is actually a Chinese section in my local library (I live in Waterloo, Ontario) and plenty of Toronto libraries have Chinese sections as well. Chinatown has plenty of Chinese books, you are probably just not familiar with them. A lot of my caucasian friends are studying Chinese right now (whether from the Internet for fun or taking a Chinese course in their universities, and yes, they exist). What makes it fair for you to level everything from English? What if you were to ask someone in China to name a famous English writer ( maybe with the exception of Shakespeare)? Have you ever heard of a book called Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I don't think you actually know enough about China to actually critique it. What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much. Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
This is clearly not true. just last week I talked to someone from Singapore in Cantonese and someone from Vietnam in Mandarin. A lot of the countries in southeast asia are under a joint influence of Chinese and Indian cultures. They may not be significant players in international politics but they 're civilized nations with civilized populations.
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On March 16 2005 08:36 FeelTheMoment wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:26 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 15 2005 23:40 FeelTheMoment wrote:
By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it. Why should I not say it? A Chinaman is to China as an Englishman is to England and a Frenchman is to France. Really, get over the sensitivity. If you're really proud as you claim you wouldn't care what variations foreigners call you. You knew it had a racism background and you don't feel ashamed to use it given you are a Chinese yourself? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chinamanThis kid is beyond crap.
It could potentially have racist insinuations. Like the word negro can be racist, the proper term is "African-American" and all this nonsense. I really don't care if you associate the word with some kind of inferiority complex, that is how people have referred to inhabitants of China for centuries. If in the past this was accompanied with a semi-racist opinion of Chinese people, that's the problem of Western historiography and semantics and your personal sensitivities, not my use.
On March 16 2005 09:10 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Why the hell would you bash your mother country the way you did? It doesn't matter what nationality you are, you are Chinese. My family immigrated to Canada when I was just eleven, and we are now Canadians. When people ask me, "Are you Chinese?" I would never say "No, I am hypenated-Canadian." I take pride in being Chinese, unlike you. Were you ever insulted by some retarded morons at a younger age for being Chinese and so you try to deny it as much as possible: "in character I resemble neither very much" I have news for you, if both of your parents are Chinese, it's impossible for you to look white. You'll look Chinese. People in Singapore speak Mandarine; people in Taiwan read and write in Chinese ( Taiwanese may criticize China as a nation, but they would never insult the Chinese culture). Japanese is based on Chinese - one third of their symbols is actually Chinese, and the Old Korean was also Chinese based, and I think knowing Chinese in Korea is just like knowing Latin in an English speaking country. I don't even know what you mean by "No one outside China has read anything Chinese". This is a faulty argument, you are generalizing way too much. Interpretation 1: What makes you think that no one outside of China has read a Chinese book? Interpretation 2: Whenever I return to China, I bring back tons of books and read them in my spare time.
I have no idea what you're talking about looking white/chinese.
People in Singapore who speak Chinese and people in Taiwan who speak Chinese/Cantonese do so becasue they ARE Chinese. Like people in Istanbul who spoke Greek, they weren't Turks who happened to think so highly of Greek that they decided to learn it. Japanese in the same language group as Chinese, of course it's similar. Incidentally Japan only looked up to China centuries ago. Things have been different since 1860 when Japan chose to adopt western modes of technology, government and political ambitions.
You say you're proud to be Chinese, what exactly are you proud of?Please don't try to pick out motives. If I wanted to talk about motives I would have written the story of my life. As it is my only claim here was to argue that its not realistic to except China to be a superpower of the 21st century. Instead I have a number of obnoxious people, especially Chinese who have a bone to pick with me because I was Chinese and don't like China. Stop being silly, that country is not paradise. If you feel im comitting national or racial treason, I'm glad the honesty of my opinion falls out of your punitive jurisdiction.
1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese
2) Obviously because you are Chinese.
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On March 16 2005 09:59 MoltkeWarding wrote:
1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese
Most foreigners i met who speak or read in Chinese with a passion are Chinese descendants. i agree with that. But not all of them. Go to any university in china you'll see ppl in different colors coming to learn the language.
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On March 16 2005 09:42 longer_23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 08:09 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 15 2005 00:20 longer_23 wrote:On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power. The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole. Yes, China has a high degree of national cohesion which is largely void of racial problems. What I see though is that China is an inward-looking nation relative to the European and Arab nations, which after all, possess in many ways a joint history. Not many Chinese people know much about India, Thailand or Vietnam. China is culturally united, but it is also a culturally isolated entity. Pride is fairly universal among Chinamen, but i don't feel that it's a pride relative to this nation or that, but the consequence of the Sinocentric mentality of Chinamen. There is nothing very wrong with this, but I shun to have anything to do with this. Most Chinese would probably feel that I am some sort of national traitor that I prefer the West to the East, but with all my prejudices I can say that they are at least slightly more sophisticated ones than the ones I used to have. MoltkeWarding you know prejudice or stereotype can really feed on itself. For example i find you enjoy using a provocative tone to solicit emotional responses, which in turn reinforces your idea of all Chinese being angry, single-minded advocates of nationalism. A Pride can mean many different things. can be some kind of mojo that drive some aborigines against their better judgement and heavy rifle fires, or it can be some self-defensive mechanism for a 'chinaman' to hide behind for security, or maybe it's simply a mood that motivates or discourage daily activities. Anyway i never notice this 'Sinocentric mentality' as you claimed. Some Chinese emigrants have a nostalgic sentiment after long years while others dont give a damn about what happens to the old house. For the latters they simply become Canadians or Americans, pay taxes to the government, contribute to the local community, or if they like, swoon over the new culture they just find. There 're no traitors or loyalists to play unless you want to dramatize the experience yourself.
I really don't see my own dramatic flair. I only say what I think to a great extent, sometimes I would reconsider if I have not considered everything I should have and have made a more point blank statement than is accurate. But if I were to give attention to all the buts ifs and exceptions I would be guilty of mocking the sentence structure with my extensive bracketing.
Some evidences of sinocentric mentality:
-When I was in China I had never seen a non-Chinese person. When I came to Canada it was a visual shock. (I did not live in Beijing or Shanghai or HK, I lived in a fairly provincial city inland, like most of the population)
-Chinese people do not much care about affairs outside China
-Chinese people have very rare examples of common history with her neighbours, in comparison to European or Arab countries
-The term "foreigner" in Chinese has a pejorative tone, almost as if "foreigner" meant the same thing as "alien"
-China has almost no political voice on the international stage proportionate to her size or even economic power
-Chinese people are not to be indoctrinated with points of view other than official propaganda. The nationalist/communist propaganda wars and the continuous anti-Japanese sentiment are examples.
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happened to notice this article on nytimes , entitled 'the chinese book market'.
notice how THINGS CHANGE!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/books/review/013MEYERL.html
"Then I asked Wen the obvious. Yes, he had seen the best minds of his generation destroyed by madness (namely the revolution). But why translate Kerouac and Ginsberg? ''Because the impact of these Beat editions on readers is great,'' he said. ''Chinese young people can find something inspiring and encouraging in the Beat lifestyle: the ardent love of freedom in action and speech, the firm stand against everything inhuman, the giving priority to the spiritual life and denying the attitude that money-seeking is everything.''
Both of Wen's Ginsberg titles have an official print run of 20,000. ''On the Road,'' which Wen says is available free online in China, had sold 30,000 copies by 2002. Small potatoes next to Chinese sales of management guides like ''The West Point Way of Leadership.'' "
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I have no idea what you're talking about looking white/chinese.
You said "in character I resemble neither very much" and I naturally assumed you meant appearance, maybe your didn't, but w/e.
Japanese in the same language group as Chinese, of course it's similar.
No kidding, that's why you see more books in German, Italian or French in Canada, because it's the same language group.
You say you're proud to be Chinese, what exactly are you proud of?
I am proud of China because of its history, because of its culture, because most of Chinese people are patriots.
Besides, you don't need a motive to be proud of your country. It's alright to just love your country regardless how good or crappy it is.
1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese
Where do you live?
Get out more.
I know plenty of people who are taking Chinese courses in university. There are plenty of pastors who can speak fluent Madarine or Cantonese.
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On March 16 2005 10:31 longer_23 wrote:happened to notice this article on nytimes , entitled 'the chinese book market'. notice how THINGS CHANGE! http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/books/review/013MEYERL.html"Then I asked Wen the obvious. Yes, he had seen the best minds of his generation destroyed by madness (namely the revolution). But why translate Kerouac and Ginsberg? ''Because the impact of these Beat editions on readers is great,'' he said. ''Chinese young people can find something inspiring and encouraging in the Beat lifestyle: the ardent love of freedom in action and speech, the firm stand against everything inhuman, the giving priority to the spiritual life and denying the attitude that money-seeking is everything.'' Both of Wen's Ginsberg titles have an official print run of 20,000. ''On the Road,'' which Wen says is available free online in China, had sold 30,000 copies by 2002. Small potatoes next to Chinese sales of management guides like ''The West Point Way of Leadership.'' "
Um that article says that foreign books are very popular in China, it doesn't say that Chinese books are very popular in foreign countries. Unless that was not your point. If your point is that China is becoming on some level more Westernized through her efforts, that's only what I've said all along.
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Moltke, the evidence you have provided are all consequences of the Chinese political landscape.
There are arabs that want to kill every single American they see....does that mean I should label them all as barbarians??
What is more throughly shocking is that you once lived in China and now that you are no longer there you smite your fellow bretheren. Its like some impoverished African American kid from Compton that makes it big in Hollywood and then turns around and makes fun of everyone he used to know for being poor and destitute. Not cool. You, sir, are a sellout.
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-When I was in China I had never seen a non-Chinese person.
When was the last time you were in China? What city?
-Chinese people do not much cared about affairs outside China
What are you basing this on?
Last time I was in China was last year during summer, and they care about affairs outside of China. Evidence? Those were the hottest new topics at that time:
Olypics
Terrorism in Russia (a school being captive by Terrorists)
U.S. election
On the contrary, I don't hear a lot of affairs outside of North America in Canada.
-The term "foreigner" in Chinese has a pejorative tone, almost as if "foreigner" meant the same thing as "alien"
外国人 - foreigner, it doesn't even have a connotation, it simply means people outside of China. How do you get "alien" out of that?
-China has almost no political voice on the international stage proportionate to her size or even economic power
..........
You know that's not true.
-Chinese people are not to be indoctrinated with points of view other than official propaganda. The nationalist/communist propaganda wars and the continuous anti-Japanese sentiment are examples.
They stopped spreading propagandas a lot time ago (like in the 1980s) and you can't stop people from spreading them. There is a reason why a lot of Chinese don't like Japanese because Japan invaded China and slaughtered millions of people.
I can say the same thing about the U.S., can't I?
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On March 16 2005 10:36 Cambium wrote:You said "in character I resemble neither very much" and I naturally assumed you meant appearance, maybe your didn't, but w/e. No kidding, that's why you see more books in German, Italian or French in Canada, because it's the same language group. I am proud of China because of its history, because of its culture, because most of Chinese people are patriots. Besides, you don't need a motive to be proud of your country. It's alright to just love your country regardless how good or crappy it is. Show nested quote +1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese Where do you live? Get out more. I know plenty of people who are taking Chinese courses in university. There are plenty of pastors who can speak fluent Madarine or Cantonese.
Yes? How many Chinese people speak Japanese as a second language? Because it's similar does not mean it will propagate throughout the world. German, French, Latin, etc besides English have all made enormous contributions to man's knowledge of himself and the world. When you talk of Chinese literature you have to go back centuries.
What exactly are you proud of in modern Chinese history? I mean there's the communist victory over nationalists and Japanese. Mao was a hero for years even after I came to Canada. Still, repudiated that view had to be, and took long enough to do it. I don't see why anyone would be proud of other peoples' patriotism. In Western thinking that would be mass indoctrination and conformity to a rigid and inflexible mass mentality. In any case I prefer not to use the word patriotism when talking about Chinese pride. I reserve that word for a specific sentiment.
I live in Ontario, the people who try to speak Chinese speak it badly and cannot pronounce it at all. My former step-father took Chinese lessons for years and I hate to say it but he sucks.
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On March 16 2005 10:46 Cambium wrote:When was the last time you were in China? What city? What are you basing this on? Last time I was in China was last year during summer, and they care about affairs outside of China. Evidence? Those were the hottest new topics at that time: Olypics Terrorism in Russia (a school being captive by Terrorists) U.S. election On the contrary, I don't hear a lot of affairs outside of North America in Canada. Show nested quote +-The term "foreigner" in Chinese has a pejorative tone, almost as if "foreigner" meant the same thing as "alien" 外国人 - foreigner, it doesn't even have a connotation, it simply means people outside of China. How do you get "alien" out of that? -China has almost no political voice on the international stage proportionate to her size or even economic power -Chinese people are not to be indoctrinated with points of view other than official propaganda. The nationalist/communist propaganda wars and the continuous anti-Japanese sentiment are examples.
Frequent uses of "foreigner" (I cannot type the characters) I've encountered among Chinese (in rough translation):
"We are Chinese people, we do not do things the as foreigners do."
"That is the foreigner way of thinking"
etc.
The term "foreigner" literally means the same thing as the English word "foreigner", but it is not the same.
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Btw, if you knew anything about Chinese history you would know that the reason China has been isolationist is as a result of the pillaging that Western countries inflicted upon her throughout the 17th century. I.E opium wars
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[QUOTE]On March 16 2005 10:47 MoltkeWarding wrote:
[quote]How many Chinese people speak Japanese as a second language? [/quote]
A lot. And a lot of them can speak fluent Korean as well.
[quote]Because it's similar does not mean it will propagate throughout the world. German, French, Latin, etc besides English have all made enormous contributions to man's knowledge of himself and the world. When you talk of Chinese literature you have to go back centuries.[/quote]
So what if you have to go back centuries? That doesn't diminish its importance. When we talk about English, we think of Shakespeare, and that's centuries ago.
[quote]What exactly are you proud of in modern Chinese history? [/quote]
Where did you find the word "modern" in my paragraph? China did have its dark era, and that's in the 1960s and 1970s. That's only twenty years of its five thousand years of history.
[quote]I live in Ontario, the people who try to speak Chinese speak it badly and cannot pronounce it at all. My former step-father took Chinese lessons for years and I hate to say it but he sucks.[/QUOTE]
Where in Ontario?
So what if the language is hard to learn? People are learning it, and that's the whole point.
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On March 16 2005 10:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Frequent uses of "foreigner" (I cannot type the characters) I've encountered among Chinese (in rough translation):
"We are Chinese people, we do not do things the as foreigners do."
"That is the foreigner way of thinking"
etc.
The term "foreigner" literally means the same thing as the English word "foreigner", but it is not the same.
I have no idea what you are referring to and I speak fluent Chinese.
Find the phrase online or type it in pinyin if you can't type Chinese to prove your statement accurate.
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What is more throughly shocking is that you once lived in China and now that you are no longer there you smite your fellow bretheren. Its like some impoverished African American kid from Compton that makes it big in Hollywood and then turns around and makes fun of everyone he used to know for being poor and destitute. Not cool. You, sir, are a sellout.
Nice analogy.
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I love China, because they will soon force us to open up our markets more to compete with them. I seriously hope that they start passing the US in every economic measure, so we will be forced to cut back taxes and government if we want to stay significant in the world.
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China. Evidence? Those were the hottest new topics at that time:
Olypics
Terrorism in Russia (a school being captive by Terrorists)
U.S. election
Yes, I heard mild things about politics when I was there (long time ago: Breakup of the USSR, etc)
but that kind of knowledge is very superficial, in many ways like the Americocentricity of Americans on a greater scale.
They stopped spreading propagandas a lot time ago (like in the 1980s) and you can't stop people from spreading them. There is a reason why a lot of Chinese don't like Japanese because Japan invaded China and slaughtered millions of people.
1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars.
You know that's not true.
It is. I found it interesting that China had nothing to say about Iraq other than the official line. It was certainly weaker than Russia and by far weaker than the objections of France and Germany. Over North Korea China largely acquiesces with American policy. On Venezuala, Sri Lanka, Israel, most issues in the world the Chinese government has nothing to say. Not that I am saying that they should, but it's reflective of their voice in the world nonetheless.
I can say the same thing about the U.S., can't I?
Americans do not hate Germans, Japanese or Italians. Americans do not hate the English for the revolution or the South for the civil war. There is American propaganda, sure. But it is constantly debated, challenged and revised. Try to have a Chinaman shout on the streets of Beijing: The communist government is evil. I've known people put in prison for that.
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On March 16 2005 10:53 mindspike wrote:
Btw, if you knew anything about Chinese history you would know that the reason China has been isolationist is as a result of the pillaging that Western countries inflicted upon her throughout the 17th century. I.E opium wars
China was isolationist before the opium wars, it was the opium wars which forced China open.
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Yes, I heard mild things about politics when I was there (long time ago: Breakup of the USSR, etc)
but that kind of knowledge is very superficial, in many ways like the Americocentricity of Americans on a greater scale.
Almost everyone watched Olympics, and it's not superficial.
They had people analyzing situation when the torrorism happened and bought rights to CNN broadcasting to share it with the entire country.
People actually cared about the US election because it actually affects China to some degree.
1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars.
Ok, if you say it's 1992, I'll believe you. The point is, they stopped doing it.
It is. I found it interesting that China had nothing to say about Iraq other than the official line. It was certainly weaker than Russia and by far weaker than the objections of France and Germany. Over North Korea China largely acquiesces with American policy. On Venezuala, Sri Lanka, Israel, most issues in the world the Chinese government has nothing to say. Not that I am saying that they should, but it's reflective of their voice in the world nonetheless.
They didn't say anything about Iraq because they didn't want to fuck with the States because Iraq is no good to China. When it comes to Taiwan, China didn't back down to the States. Did they?
Americans do not hate Germans, Japanese or Italians.
What about Iraqis?
Try to have a Chinaman shout on the streets of Beijing: The communist government is evil. I've known people put in prison for that.
If you do that in the U.S., they'll just classify you as a potential terrorist and you get taken away as well.
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On March 16 2005 10:45 mindspike wrote:
Moltke, the evidence you have provided are all consequences of the Chinese political landscape.
There are arabs that want to kill every single American they see....does that mean I should label them all as barbarians??
What is more throughly shocking is that you once lived in China and now that you are no longer there you smite your fellow bretheren. Its like some impoverished African American kid from Compton that makes it big in Hollywood and then turns around and makes fun of everyone he used to know for being poor and destitute. Not cool. You, sir, are a sellout.
I don't know anything about Arabs, nor do I subscribe to what I see on CNN. You talk about the power of institutions. Let me ask you: who adopted those institutions? Every country is ultimately responsible for her own political character, whether it be monarchial, oligarchial or democratic.
I have no clue what you're talking about with the barbarian labelling. The word barbarian originally meant a person who did not speak Greek. As far as Greek civilization has been inherited by Europe, sure, you can use the word barbarian to label anyone who is non-European. But I have never used it this way, nor have I used the word at all.
Well, "sir", I'm glad that you can pinpoint my motives so well. In fact, with you explaining me to myself, why do I need to comment at all?
But consider: If I wanted to feel big, why would I dislike my own race/country?
I have no idea why people keep trying to probing into the darker side of potential motives without even stopping to consider whether I might have legitimate reasons to think the West is better than East.Debate the issues, not the person. Thank you.
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On March 16 2005 11:16 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +Yes, I heard mild things about politics when I was there (long time ago: Breakup of the USSR, etc)
but that kind of knowledge is very superficial, in many ways like the Americocentricity of Americans on a greater scale. Almost everyone watched Olympics, and it's not superficial. They had people analyzing situation when the torrorism happened and bought rights to CNN broadcasting to share it with the entire country. People actually cared about the US election because it actually affects China to some degree. Show nested quote +1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Ok, if you say it's 1992, I'll believe you. The point is, they stopped doing it. Show nested quote +It is. I found it interesting that China had nothing to say about Iraq other than the official line. It was certainly weaker than Russia and by far weaker than the objections of France and Germany. Over North Korea China largely acquiesces with American policy. On Venezuala, Sri Lanka, Israel, most issues in the world the Chinese government has nothing to say. Not that I am saying that they should, but it's reflective of their voice in the world nonetheless. They didn't say anything about Iraq because they didn't want to fuck with the States because Iraq is no good to China. When it comes to Taiwan, China didn't back down to the States. Did they? What about Iraqis? Show nested quote +Try to have a Chinaman shout on the streets of Beijing: The communist government is evil. I've known people put in prison for that. If you do that in the U.S., they'll just classify you as a potential terrorist and you get taken away as well.
Everyone cared about the American elections. But how many Chinese people have a nuanced opinion of American politics? You might argue that no American follows Chinese politics, but really, what is there to follow in China?
Your point about Taiwan/Iraq proves my point about sinocentricity entirely. The Chinese had nothing to say about Iraq because it is a foreign country not many Chinese people know anything about. Taiwan is however regarded as a part of China. The Chinese are willing to defer to other states on international issues but not internal issues. Political freedom, human rights, taiwan are all issues on which China does not give a damn what George bush says. On Iraq, Israel even North Korea the Chinese don't move a finger's worth of effort either way.
Oh and thousands of people protest against Bush in the United States every month.
What about Iraqis?
I don't think Americans hate Iraqis either. Americans are not that way, even though there is a minority of nationalists who will hate anything and anyone who thinks contrary to the Greatness of the United States, whether they be Iraqis or Frenchmen or Liberals. The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice.
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Did any other nation try to stop the States from invading Iraq? No. They don't think it is a good idea to attack Iraq, but they aren't going to send men to help Iraq for the hell of it.
If you know your history, China sent thousands even millions of soldiers to help North Korea, and they drove back the U.S. and that's why there are South and North Korea.
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The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice.
They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN.
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Show nested quote +I live in Ontario, the people who try to speak Chinese speak it badly and cannot pronounce it at all. My former step-father took Chinese lessons for years and I hate to say it but he sucks. Where in Ontario?
On March 16 2005 10:59 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 10:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Frequent uses of "foreigner" (I cannot type the characters) I've encountered among Chinese (in rough translation):
"We are Chinese people, we do not do things the as foreigners do."
"That is the foreigner way of thinking"
etc.
The term "foreigner" literally means the same thing as the English word "foreigner", but it is not the same. I have no idea what you are referring to and I speak fluent Chinese. Find the phrase online or type it in pinyin if you can't type Chinese to prove your statement accurate.
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On March 16 2005 11:28 Cambium wrote:
Did any other nation try to stop the States from invading Iraq? No. They don't think it is a good idea to attack Iraq, but they aren't going to send men to help Iraq for the hell of it.
If you know your history, China sent thousands even millions of soldiers to help North Korea, and their drove back the U.S. and that's why there are South and North Korea.
It's not a issue of taking sides. No one in France, Germany or Russia will take Iraq's side against the United Staes. However who led the diplomatic counter-offensive against America? Chirac. Did China say anything apart from they didn't think it would be a good idea? Inversely, would the United States have really cared if China vehemently opposed the war but France and Germany backed it? I think not. France and Germany did not stop the war, but they caused considerable political embarassment to the United States and were the bulwark of the entire anti-war movement.
Chinese intervention in N Korea happened a long time ago, in more daring times. Would China assist N Korea in a second Korean war? I think not.
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On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN.
Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is.
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If China were to attack Taiwan, is any country going to actually stop China from doing it?
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On March 16 2005 11:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN. Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is.
Like you said, that's before 1992, get with the time.
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On March 16 2005 11:38 Cambium wrote:
If China were to attack Taiwan, is any country going to actually stop China from doing it?
I have no idea. American foreign policy changes from president to president. All I can say is if China wants to attack taiwan, better to wait for a democrat to get in office.
But again, Taiwan is seen by China as its 29th province, an internal matter which gives the island a unique place in the context of her "foreign" policy: the problem being many other powers recognize Taiwan as an independent political entity and China does not.
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On March 16 2005 11:38 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN. Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is. Like you said, that's before 1992, get with the time.
Only a year ago or so, the Chinese government objected in the strongest terms to the Japanese PM visiting the graves of so-called Japanese war criminals. I don't see it having passed entirely. Besides, there was that amusing Chinese guy who posted on these boards a few months ago, we want peace or something who made with silly anti-JApanese rhetoric. I don't think its credible to believe that within 10 years time, China has decided to forgive and forget.
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1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars.
Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past?
The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues.
I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist.
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Feelthemoment, take over for me, I'm really tired and I have stuff to do today. I'll post again tonight if I have time -__-
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On March 16 2005 11:43 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:38 Cambium wrote:On March 16 2005 11:37 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:29 Cambium wrote:The majority of Americans will not support a war unless they think its in the purpose of justice. They make their reasons just, and that's why there is CNN. Yes, but we're slipping away from the issue, CNN does not promote hatred. At best they have a couple of pundit clowns who make asses of themselves every so often. I don't think CNN promotes anti-Iraqi sentiment the way the Chinese government has promoted anti-Japanese ones. Americans happen to have a high belief in natural human virtue, a flawed belief, but there it is. Like you said, that's before 1992, get with the time. Only a year ago or so, the Chinese government objected in the strongest terms to the Japanese PM visiting the graves of so-called Japanese war criminals. I don't see it having passed entirely. Besides, there was that amusing Chinese guy who posted on these boards a few months ago, we want peace or something who made with silly anti-JApanese rhetoric. I don't think its credible to believe that within 10 years time, China has decided to forgive and forget.
Do you pray fro Hitler?
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On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:Show nested quote +1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist.
Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure.
I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing....
Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue.
And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense.
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You are using your personal experience to support your arguement, which is not true. I simply state it out. I am not saying you are not capable to make judgement, I am saying your judgement or the proof lead to your judgement is wrong.
There are lot of things you weren't aware of. Say China is trying to make Taiwan her 35th province, instead of 29th? Well I guess you don't care about it neither. You probably don't even care what you've posted so I'd rather speak to someone who does care.
By the way please make sure your mom know about your opionion towards China.
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On March 16 2005 12:10 FeelTheMoment wrote:
You are using your personal experience to support your arguement, which is not true. I simply state it out. I am not saying you are not capable to make judgement, I am saying your judgement or the proof lead to your judgement is wrong.
There are lot of things you weren't aware of. Say China is trying to make Taiwan her 35th province, instead of 29th? Well I guess you don't care about it neither. You probably don't even care what you've posted so I'd rather speak to someone who does care.
By the way please make sure your mom know about your opionion towards China.
Your conclusions are pretty clear: my judgements are wrong, but your argument involves guessing about my past? On what basis are they wrong then, besides trumping your judgement over mine.
Taiwan is China's 29th province. The semi-autonomous territories of China don't count as provinces.
Leave my mother out of this -_-
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Taiwan would be one of those semi-autonomous territory instead of a province. However those SATs are province-level.
It was not guessing, you stated in your previous post and I just pointed it out. Please get your logical ability and your facts straight before arguing with me. Thanks. I will work on my English at the same time
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On March 16 2005 12:28 FeelTheMoment wrote:
Taiwan would be one of those semi-autonomous territory instead of a province. However those SATs are province-level.
It was not guessing, you stated in your previous post and I just pointed it out. Please get your logical ability and your facts straight before arguing with me. Thanks. I will work on my English at the same time
On March 16 2005 12:28 FeelTheMoment wrote:
Taiwan would be one of those semi-autonomous territory instead of a province. However those SATs are province-level.
It was not guessing, you stated in your previous post and I just pointed it out. Please get your logical ability and your facts straight before arguing with me. Thanks. I will work on my English at the same time
There are several states of provinces in China. Semi-autonomous territories exist because they are claimed by different ethnicities, a claim which does not include Taiwan. Hence HK and Macao are not SAT but self-governing cities.
Sorry, I did not take your statement as a matter of fact, because I do not take seriously your claim that you follow world news or have a high understanding of other cultures. No Chinese person has in my experience, and that is more than simply two or three. I have never heard Chinese people voice any important opinions on issues in most of the world. The United States and important things like Iraq I grant you, but not much more. As for the culture, I don't think Chinese people can tell you much beyond "pop" culture of foreign nations, which I don't consider culture at all. You're welcome to prove me wrong.
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Saying a whole country of people don't care about world news is ridiculous. I guess billions of newpaper published in China just had those world news sections for decoration purpose.
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China's silence on many issues worldwide is the government's choice. It does not mean no one cares or no one know about it. It is not 70s anymore...
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On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense.
"Who cares?"
Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch.
Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last?
How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from?
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On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from?
If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others.
"None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul.
The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe:
It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same.
Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing.
Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better.
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why cant we all just get along.
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On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better.
You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years?
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On March 16 2005 16:36 0_0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better. You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years?
And my point is: what business is it of yours what is in Japanese history text books? Do you really think Japan will invade China again? No. It's all bogus.
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On March 16 2005 16:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 16:36 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better. You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years? And my point is: what business is it of yours what is in Japanese history text books? Do you really think Japan will invade China again? No. It's all bogus.
Stop talking out of your ass. Neither you or I can predict the future but for some one who hasn't set foot in Asia in the last ten years, i don't think you should make judgements about what should be or should not be.
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On March 16 2005 16:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 16:36 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better. You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years? And my point is: what business is it of yours what is in Japanese history text books? Do you really think Japan will invade China again? No. It's all bogus.
Yes, it is my business. If they don't acknowledge, or at least realize that what they did is wrong, it may very well repeat itself. You don't seem to understand, they are completely covering this up, they don't feel that what they did was wrong. What is keeping them from doing it again? You dismiss it as being bogus, but who are you to say that it is bogus?
On the topic of war criminals, I feel that their families should be allowed to visit the graves, but I don't think they should be "given praise or prayer" or anything of that sort for their heinous crimes in the war. I'm sure they gave a lot of thought about that to the victims of their raping and killing.
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EPT
