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On March 15 2005 08:09 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 00:20 longer_23 wrote:On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power. The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole. Yes, China has a high degree of national cohesion which is largely void of racial problems. What I see though is that China is an inward-looking nation relative to the European and Arab nations, which after all, possess in many ways a joint history. Not many Chinese people know much about India, Thailand or Vietnam. China is culturally united, but it is also a culturally isolated entity. Pride is fairly universal among Chinamen, but i don't feel that it's a pride relative to this nation or that, but the consequence of the Sinocentric mentality of Chinamen. There is nothing very wrong with this, but I shun to have anything to do with this. Most Chinese would probably feel that I am some sort of national traitor that I prefer the West to the East, but with all my prejudices I can say that they are at least slightly more sophisticated ones than the ones I used to have.
MoltkeWarding you know prejudice or stereotype can really feed on itself. For example i find you enjoy using a provocative tone to solicit emotional responses, which in turn reinforces your idea of all Chinese being angry, single-minded advocates of nationalism.
A Pride can mean many different things. can be some kind of mojo that drive some aborigines against their better judgement and heavy rifle fires, or it can be some self-defensive mechanism for a 'chinaman' to hide behind for security, or maybe it's simply a mood that motivates or discourage daily activities. Anyway i never notice this 'Sinocentric mentality' as you claimed. Some Chinese emigrants have a nostalgic sentiment after long years while others dont give a damn about what happens to the old house. For the latters they simply become Canadians or Americans, pay taxes to the government, contribute to the local community, or if they like, swoon over the new culture they just find. There 're no traitors or loyalists to play unless you want to dramatize the experience yourself.
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On March 16 2005 09:10 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Why the hell would you bash your mother country the way you did? It doesn't matter what nationality you are, you are Chinese. My family immigrated to Canada when I was just eleven, and we are now Canadians. When people ask me, "Are you Chinese?" I would never say "No, I am hypenated-Canadian." I take pride in being Chinese, unlike you. Were you ever insulted by some retarded morons at a younger age for being Chinese and so you try to deny it as much as possible: "in character I resemble neither very much" I have news for you, if both of your parents are Chinese, it's impossible for you to look white. You'll look Chinese. People in Singapore speaks Mandarine; people in Taiwan read and write in Chinese ( Taiwanese may criticize China as a nation, but they would never insult the Chinese culture). Japanese is based on Chinese - one third of their symbols is actually Chinese, and the Old Korean was also Chinese based, and I think knowing Chinese in Korea is just like knowing Latin in an English speaking country. I don't even know what you mean by "No one outside China has read anything Chinese". This is a faulty argument, you are generalizing way too much. Interpretation 1: What makes you think that no one outside of China has read a Chinese book? Interpretation 2: Whenever I return to China, I bring back tons of books and read them in my spare time.
well said.
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On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 19:12 Cambium wrote:On March 15 2005 06:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language. I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer? I'll ask you this before I start: Are you Chinese? If you aren't, then it's okay for you to not comprehend what the Chinese culture is like. You can find a book in French, Latin, and German in your library because you live in the West side of the sphere. There is actually a Chinese section in my local library (I live in Waterloo, Ontario) and plenty of Toronto libraries have Chinese sections as well. Chinatown has plenty of Chinese books, you are probably just not familiar with them. A lot of my caucasian friends are studying Chinese right now (whether from the Internet for fun or taking a Chinese course in their universities, and yes, they exist). What makes it fair for you to level everything from English? What if you were to ask someone in China to name a famous English writer ( maybe with the exception of Shakespeare)? Have you ever heard of a book called Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I don't think you actually know enough about China to actually critique it. What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much. Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
This is clearly not true. just last week I talked to someone from Singapore in Cantonese and someone from Vietnam in Mandarin. A lot of the countries in southeast asia are under a joint influence of Chinese and Indian cultures. They may not be significant players in international politics but they 're civilized nations with civilized populations.
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On March 16 2005 08:36 FeelTheMoment wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:26 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 15 2005 23:40 FeelTheMoment wrote:
By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it. Why should I not say it? A Chinaman is to China as an Englishman is to England and a Frenchman is to France. Really, get over the sensitivity. If you're really proud as you claim you wouldn't care what variations foreigners call you. You knew it had a racism background and you don't feel ashamed to use it given you are a Chinese yourself? http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chinamanThis kid is beyond crap.
It could potentially have racist insinuations. Like the word negro can be racist, the proper term is "African-American" and all this nonsense. I really don't care if you associate the word with some kind of inferiority complex, that is how people have referred to inhabitants of China for centuries. If in the past this was accompanied with a semi-racist opinion of Chinese people, that's the problem of Western historiography and semantics and your personal sensitivities, not my use.
On March 16 2005 09:10 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 03:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Why the hell would you bash your mother country the way you did? It doesn't matter what nationality you are, you are Chinese. My family immigrated to Canada when I was just eleven, and we are now Canadians. When people ask me, "Are you Chinese?" I would never say "No, I am hypenated-Canadian." I take pride in being Chinese, unlike you. Were you ever insulted by some retarded morons at a younger age for being Chinese and so you try to deny it as much as possible: "in character I resemble neither very much" I have news for you, if both of your parents are Chinese, it's impossible for you to look white. You'll look Chinese. People in Singapore speak Mandarine; people in Taiwan read and write in Chinese ( Taiwanese may criticize China as a nation, but they would never insult the Chinese culture). Japanese is based on Chinese - one third of their symbols is actually Chinese, and the Old Korean was also Chinese based, and I think knowing Chinese in Korea is just like knowing Latin in an English speaking country. I don't even know what you mean by "No one outside China has read anything Chinese". This is a faulty argument, you are generalizing way too much. Interpretation 1: What makes you think that no one outside of China has read a Chinese book? Interpretation 2: Whenever I return to China, I bring back tons of books and read them in my spare time.
I have no idea what you're talking about looking white/chinese.
People in Singapore who speak Chinese and people in Taiwan who speak Chinese/Cantonese do so becasue they ARE Chinese. Like people in Istanbul who spoke Greek, they weren't Turks who happened to think so highly of Greek that they decided to learn it. Japanese in the same language group as Chinese, of course it's similar. Incidentally Japan only looked up to China centuries ago. Things have been different since 1860 when Japan chose to adopt western modes of technology, government and political ambitions.
You say you're proud to be Chinese, what exactly are you proud of?Please don't try to pick out motives. If I wanted to talk about motives I would have written the story of my life. As it is my only claim here was to argue that its not realistic to except China to be a superpower of the 21st century. Instead I have a number of obnoxious people, especially Chinese who have a bone to pick with me because I was Chinese and don't like China. Stop being silly, that country is not paradise. If you feel im comitting national or racial treason, I'm glad the honesty of my opinion falls out of your punitive jurisdiction.
1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese
2) Obviously because you are Chinese.
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On March 16 2005 09:59 MoltkeWarding wrote:
1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese
Most foreigners i met who speak or read in Chinese with a passion are Chinese descendants. i agree with that. But not all of them. Go to any university in china you'll see ppl in different colors coming to learn the language.
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On March 16 2005 09:42 longer_23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 08:09 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 15 2005 00:20 longer_23 wrote:On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power. The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole. Yes, China has a high degree of national cohesion which is largely void of racial problems. What I see though is that China is an inward-looking nation relative to the European and Arab nations, which after all, possess in many ways a joint history. Not many Chinese people know much about India, Thailand or Vietnam. China is culturally united, but it is also a culturally isolated entity. Pride is fairly universal among Chinamen, but i don't feel that it's a pride relative to this nation or that, but the consequence of the Sinocentric mentality of Chinamen. There is nothing very wrong with this, but I shun to have anything to do with this. Most Chinese would probably feel that I am some sort of national traitor that I prefer the West to the East, but with all my prejudices I can say that they are at least slightly more sophisticated ones than the ones I used to have. MoltkeWarding you know prejudice or stereotype can really feed on itself. For example i find you enjoy using a provocative tone to solicit emotional responses, which in turn reinforces your idea of all Chinese being angry, single-minded advocates of nationalism. A Pride can mean many different things. can be some kind of mojo that drive some aborigines against their better judgement and heavy rifle fires, or it can be some self-defensive mechanism for a 'chinaman' to hide behind for security, or maybe it's simply a mood that motivates or discourage daily activities. Anyway i never notice this 'Sinocentric mentality' as you claimed. Some Chinese emigrants have a nostalgic sentiment after long years while others dont give a damn about what happens to the old house. For the latters they simply become Canadians or Americans, pay taxes to the government, contribute to the local community, or if they like, swoon over the new culture they just find. There 're no traitors or loyalists to play unless you want to dramatize the experience yourself.
I really don't see my own dramatic flair. I only say what I think to a great extent, sometimes I would reconsider if I have not considered everything I should have and have made a more point blank statement than is accurate. But if I were to give attention to all the buts ifs and exceptions I would be guilty of mocking the sentence structure with my extensive bracketing.
Some evidences of sinocentric mentality:
-When I was in China I had never seen a non-Chinese person. When I came to Canada it was a visual shock. (I did not live in Beijing or Shanghai or HK, I lived in a fairly provincial city inland, like most of the population)
-Chinese people do not much care about affairs outside China
-Chinese people have very rare examples of common history with her neighbours, in comparison to European or Arab countries
-The term "foreigner" in Chinese has a pejorative tone, almost as if "foreigner" meant the same thing as "alien"
-China has almost no political voice on the international stage proportionate to her size or even economic power
-Chinese people are not to be indoctrinated with points of view other than official propaganda. The nationalist/communist propaganda wars and the continuous anti-Japanese sentiment are examples.
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happened to notice this article on nytimes , entitled 'the chinese book market'.
notice how THINGS CHANGE!
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/books/review/013MEYERL.html
"Then I asked Wen the obvious. Yes, he had seen the best minds of his generation destroyed by madness (namely the revolution). But why translate Kerouac and Ginsberg? ''Because the impact of these Beat editions on readers is great,'' he said. ''Chinese young people can find something inspiring and encouraging in the Beat lifestyle: the ardent love of freedom in action and speech, the firm stand against everything inhuman, the giving priority to the spiritual life and denying the attitude that money-seeking is everything.''
Both of Wen's Ginsberg titles have an official print run of 20,000. ''On the Road,'' which Wen says is available free online in China, had sold 30,000 copies by 2002. Small potatoes next to Chinese sales of management guides like ''The West Point Way of Leadership.'' "
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I have no idea what you're talking about looking white/chinese.
You said "in character I resemble neither very much" and I naturally assumed you meant appearance, maybe your didn't, but w/e.
Japanese in the same language group as Chinese, of course it's similar.
No kidding, that's why you see more books in German, Italian or French in Canada, because it's the same language group.
You say you're proud to be Chinese, what exactly are you proud of?
I am proud of China because of its history, because of its culture, because most of Chinese people are patriots.
Besides, you don't need a motive to be proud of your country. It's alright to just love your country regardless how good or crappy it is.
1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese
Where do you live?
Get out more.
I know plenty of people who are taking Chinese courses in university. There are plenty of pastors who can speak fluent Madarine or Cantonese.
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On March 16 2005 10:31 longer_23 wrote:happened to notice this article on nytimes , entitled 'the chinese book market'. notice how THINGS CHANGE! http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/13/books/review/013MEYERL.html"Then I asked Wen the obvious. Yes, he had seen the best minds of his generation destroyed by madness (namely the revolution). But why translate Kerouac and Ginsberg? ''Because the impact of these Beat editions on readers is great,'' he said. ''Chinese young people can find something inspiring and encouraging in the Beat lifestyle: the ardent love of freedom in action and speech, the firm stand against everything inhuman, the giving priority to the spiritual life and denying the attitude that money-seeking is everything.'' Both of Wen's Ginsberg titles have an official print run of 20,000. ''On the Road,'' which Wen says is available free online in China, had sold 30,000 copies by 2002. Small potatoes next to Chinese sales of management guides like ''The West Point Way of Leadership.'' "
Um that article says that foreign books are very popular in China, it doesn't say that Chinese books are very popular in foreign countries. Unless that was not your point. If your point is that China is becoming on some level more Westernized through her efforts, that's only what I've said all along.
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Moltke, the evidence you have provided are all consequences of the Chinese political landscape.
There are arabs that want to kill every single American they see....does that mean I should label them all as barbarians??
What is more throughly shocking is that you once lived in China and now that you are no longer there you smite your fellow bretheren. Its like some impoverished African American kid from Compton that makes it big in Hollywood and then turns around and makes fun of everyone he used to know for being poor and destitute. Not cool. You, sir, are a sellout.
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-When I was in China I had never seen a non-Chinese person.
When was the last time you were in China? What city?
-Chinese people do not much cared about affairs outside China
What are you basing this on?
Last time I was in China was last year during summer, and they care about affairs outside of China. Evidence? Those were the hottest new topics at that time:
Olypics
Terrorism in Russia (a school being captive by Terrorists)
U.S. election
On the contrary, I don't hear a lot of affairs outside of North America in Canada.
-The term "foreigner" in Chinese has a pejorative tone, almost as if "foreigner" meant the same thing as "alien"
外国人 - foreigner, it doesn't even have a connotation, it simply means people outside of China. How do you get "alien" out of that?
-China has almost no political voice on the international stage proportionate to her size or even economic power
..........
You know that's not true.
-Chinese people are not to be indoctrinated with points of view other than official propaganda. The nationalist/communist propaganda wars and the continuous anti-Japanese sentiment are examples.
They stopped spreading propagandas a lot time ago (like in the 1980s) and you can't stop people from spreading them. There is a reason why a lot of Chinese don't like Japanese because Japan invaded China and slaughtered millions of people.
I can say the same thing about the U.S., can't I?
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On March 16 2005 10:36 Cambium wrote:You said "in character I resemble neither very much" and I naturally assumed you meant appearance, maybe your didn't, but w/e. No kidding, that's why you see more books in German, Italian or French in Canada, because it's the same language group. I am proud of China because of its history, because of its culture, because most of Chinese people are patriots. Besides, you don't need a motive to be proud of your country. It's alright to just love your country regardless how good or crappy it is. Show nested quote +1) I've never encountered besides perhaps 1 person any example of non-Chinese people reading Chinese Where do you live? Get out more. I know plenty of people who are taking Chinese courses in university. There are plenty of pastors who can speak fluent Madarine or Cantonese.
Yes? How many Chinese people speak Japanese as a second language? Because it's similar does not mean it will propagate throughout the world. German, French, Latin, etc besides English have all made enormous contributions to man's knowledge of himself and the world. When you talk of Chinese literature you have to go back centuries.
What exactly are you proud of in modern Chinese history? I mean there's the communist victory over nationalists and Japanese. Mao was a hero for years even after I came to Canada. Still, repudiated that view had to be, and took long enough to do it. I don't see why anyone would be proud of other peoples' patriotism. In Western thinking that would be mass indoctrination and conformity to a rigid and inflexible mass mentality. In any case I prefer not to use the word patriotism when talking about Chinese pride. I reserve that word for a specific sentiment.
I live in Ontario, the people who try to speak Chinese speak it badly and cannot pronounce it at all. My former step-father took Chinese lessons for years and I hate to say it but he sucks.
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On March 16 2005 10:46 Cambium wrote:When was the last time you were in China? What city? What are you basing this on? Last time I was in China was last year during summer, and they care about affairs outside of China. Evidence? Those were the hottest new topics at that time: Olypics Terrorism in Russia (a school being captive by Terrorists) U.S. election On the contrary, I don't hear a lot of affairs outside of North America in Canada. Show nested quote +-The term "foreigner" in Chinese has a pejorative tone, almost as if "foreigner" meant the same thing as "alien" 外国人 - foreigner, it doesn't even have a connotation, it simply means people outside of China. How do you get "alien" out of that? -China has almost no political voice on the international stage proportionate to her size or even economic power -Chinese people are not to be indoctrinated with points of view other than official propaganda. The nationalist/communist propaganda wars and the continuous anti-Japanese sentiment are examples.
Frequent uses of "foreigner" (I cannot type the characters) I've encountered among Chinese (in rough translation):
"We are Chinese people, we do not do things the as foreigners do."
"That is the foreigner way of thinking"
etc.
The term "foreigner" literally means the same thing as the English word "foreigner", but it is not the same.
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Btw, if you knew anything about Chinese history you would know that the reason China has been isolationist is as a result of the pillaging that Western countries inflicted upon her throughout the 17th century. I.E opium wars
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[QUOTE]On March 16 2005 10:47 MoltkeWarding wrote:
[quote]How many Chinese people speak Japanese as a second language? [/quote]
A lot. And a lot of them can speak fluent Korean as well.
[quote]Because it's similar does not mean it will propagate throughout the world. German, French, Latin, etc besides English have all made enormous contributions to man's knowledge of himself and the world. When you talk of Chinese literature you have to go back centuries.[/quote]
So what if you have to go back centuries? That doesn't diminish its importance. When we talk about English, we think of Shakespeare, and that's centuries ago.
[quote]What exactly are you proud of in modern Chinese history? [/quote]
Where did you find the word "modern" in my paragraph? China did have its dark era, and that's in the 1960s and 1970s. That's only twenty years of its five thousand years of history.
[quote]I live in Ontario, the people who try to speak Chinese speak it badly and cannot pronounce it at all. My former step-father took Chinese lessons for years and I hate to say it but he sucks.[/QUOTE]
Where in Ontario?
So what if the language is hard to learn? People are learning it, and that's the whole point.
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On March 16 2005 10:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Frequent uses of "foreigner" (I cannot type the characters) I've encountered among Chinese (in rough translation):
"We are Chinese people, we do not do things the as foreigners do."
"That is the foreigner way of thinking"
etc.
The term "foreigner" literally means the same thing as the English word "foreigner", but it is not the same.
I have no idea what you are referring to and I speak fluent Chinese.
Find the phrase online or type it in pinyin if you can't type Chinese to prove your statement accurate.
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What is more throughly shocking is that you once lived in China and now that you are no longer there you smite your fellow bretheren. Its like some impoverished African American kid from Compton that makes it big in Hollywood and then turns around and makes fun of everyone he used to know for being poor and destitute. Not cool. You, sir, are a sellout.
Nice analogy.
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I love China, because they will soon force us to open up our markets more to compete with them. I seriously hope that they start passing the US in every economic measure, so we will be forced to cut back taxes and government if we want to stay significant in the world.
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China. Evidence? Those were the hottest new topics at that time:
Olypics
Terrorism in Russia (a school being captive by Terrorists)
U.S. election
Yes, I heard mild things about politics when I was there (long time ago: Breakup of the USSR, etc)
but that kind of knowledge is very superficial, in many ways like the Americocentricity of Americans on a greater scale.
They stopped spreading propagandas a lot time ago (like in the 1980s) and you can't stop people from spreading them. There is a reason why a lot of Chinese don't like Japanese because Japan invaded China and slaughtered millions of people.
1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars.
You know that's not true.
It is. I found it interesting that China had nothing to say about Iraq other than the official line. It was certainly weaker than Russia and by far weaker than the objections of France and Germany. Over North Korea China largely acquiesces with American policy. On Venezuala, Sri Lanka, Israel, most issues in the world the Chinese government has nothing to say. Not that I am saying that they should, but it's reflective of their voice in the world nonetheless.
I can say the same thing about the U.S., can't I?
Americans do not hate Germans, Japanese or Italians. Americans do not hate the English for the revolution or the South for the civil war. There is American propaganda, sure. But it is constantly debated, challenged and revised. Try to have a Chinaman shout on the streets of Beijing: The communist government is evil. I've known people put in prison for that.
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EPT
