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On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language.
I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer?
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On March 14 2005 22:44 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. Ok bananaman, i'm done arguing with you, obviously the only 'prestige' your eyes can see are that of the western, just some questions, how much time did you actually lived at China or and how much Canadian education did you recieve to make you think you can pass a judgement that China is in fact intellectually void?
hmm Canadian education indoctrinated me toward its prejudiced philosophy of the world no doubt. This is exactly wrong. Canadian education encourages multicultural activities as much as any other, and I really have no need to narrate my private experiences and sentiments to someone who doesn't really care anyway.
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I'd just like to respond to all those who present Sun Tzu's Art of War as an example of China's intellectual heritage that would put it on par with the West's. Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you.
There can be no question whatsoever that Western history of ideas has no match in that of China. What is the chinese equivalent to ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Enlightenment ? Who's their Plato, their Pascal, their Descartes, their Rousseau, their Nietzsche, their Heidegger ? Come on.
Now, no one will deny China's huge manpower, nuclear capabilities, etc and no one will deny that it is in a position to become a dominant influence on the world. But the truth of the matter is that China, nor Islam nor any other civilization in the foreseeable future, will be able to produce a superpower as radiant as the West has produced again and again because no other civilization parallels its tremendous intellectual baggage.
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Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks.
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On March 14 2005 22:59 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. Time to open a newspaper buddy, and get your head out of the sand. China is a nuclear power. China has a permanent seat at he UN. China has the largest army. China has put a man in space. Type this into google: "most spoken language" and you will see that the number of people speaking Chinese is almost 2x those speaking english. China has the fastest growing economy on the globe, and gaining official recognition from the government as a tourism spot is something every country craves (including Canada who recently got it). Learning Chinese is one of the highest priorities for those business right now, as that is where the market is. Multi-cultural identity? You speak as if it is a disease, when it is an issue in most countries, including ours. Simply said, just because the only Chinese guy you see is working the counter at your corner store does not remove the relevance of their position as the largest entity on earth.
I don't know what you are debating specifically or point you're trying to make, so i can't make any ad hoc replies. It's true China's elevated status in 1945 to one of the five victor powers (which was at that time, a severe elevation) granted her certain degrees of political esteem. Her crack nuclear program in the 60s was also impressive given the time and limitation of resources. However let's not deceive ourselves. Of the five old nuclear powers, China's arsenal has by far the most limited capabilities. China is slimming down her army in comfomity with the "rapid reaction force" philosophy of western militaries. China is heavily dependent on Russian air and missile technology. China's army serves a very limited purpose.
The reason China is the most frequently spoken mothertongue is obvious: There are more Chinese than North Americans and Europeans combined. However if we count secondary languages, etc, more people can speak English than Chinese. When people in Germany and Mexico start speaking Chinese as a second language, I'll reconsider its status.
You know my mother said the same thing about the business deal -_-. She thinks i should be learning Mandarin instead of German and Oriental history instead of Western history. Suffice it to say market interests never entered my considerations and never will. Currently though more business is conducted in German and Spanish in terms of money than Chinese by far.
When I speak of the ailments of a multi-cultural identity I am talking about the peoples' alienation from their own cultures and histories, which is in my opinion a most important degree of self-knowledge. To give oriental, Egyptian, native American studies priority over European or American ones is to make people think abstractly, one might as well lecture them on Venice or Genoa when they don't even know anything about the World Wars or the French revolution.
I'm also quite confident I've seen more Chinese in my life time than most people here.
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On March 15 2005 07:42 Servolisk wrote:
Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks.
I'm sorry. You're right. If you'd take the Art of War over the Prince, that's fine.
And if you'd take James Redfield's The Celestine Phophecy over both of those, that's totally cool too!
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On March 15 2005 00:20 longer_23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 21:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 18:30 haduken wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
French fashions, architecture, language, philosophy, literature, forms of coversation and modes of thought became imitated from Russia to America (as late as the early 20th century there was a class of people on the eastern seaboard who adhered to these tastes). As I see it, no one here attempts to imitate Chinese modes of thought. No one travels to Beijing to listen to Chinese opera, talk with the Chinese Voltaire or taste Chinese high society. Are you so sure about that? instead of down talk China when ever you can why don't you school yourself on Confucius, eastern Architecture. You do know that Chinese culture influenced just about all the Asian countries right? Sun Zi's art of war is used by present day stratgetists? Chinese proverbs and way of thinking might seem useless to you but they are quite meaningful for maybe quarter of the global population. Even today, Japanese language uses Chinese characters. There are in fact great deal of western and asian people travelling to china to appreciate its presitige and culture, just because you don't find them interesting does not mean others won't. I'm sorry, obviously you don't have a clue what prestige really means. It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. The Chinese people is not a homogeneous race as a people in one of the european countries. From Manchuia to Yellow River to Long River to the south, there's a wide spectrum of sub-ethnicities that're different from each other in food, customs, mentalities and even physical appearances. The cultural diversity of China is comparable to Europe as a whole. Whenever China was not united in history these different local populations fight against each other just like different nationals in Europe. But what matters today is that we're again united, tuned to a same tone and as a result we uphold a same cultural identity. That's the real significance of the Chinese language. Besides English and Spanish I dont see another european language has achieved this massive binding power. The loss of cultural prestige is the sad memory of the recent centuries, especially the 20th. If a decade's revolution in France could shake the entire european cultural structure then you can imagine : take that destruction mulply it by 10 and apply it to a China that had already been torched by a century of incessant warfares. Of course there's not much left. But still, men can always build up new civilizations from the ashes of the old ones. In history the Chinese civilization was brought to the ground quite a few times by nomads or domestic revolutions. it has survived. Even if all the new elitist elements were wiped out (they will grow back, but not before the majority of people regain a decent living standard) and all the ancient wisdoms are becoming cliche, i can still find a hell lot of pride at least in the endurance of any average chinese and the culture as a whole.
Yes, China has a high degree of national cohesion which is largely void of racial problems. What I see though is that China is an inward-looking nation relative to the European and Arab nations, which after all, possess in many ways a joint history. Not many Chinese people know much about India, Thailand or Vietnam. China is culturally united, but it is also a culturally isolated entity.
Pride is fairly universal among Chinamen, but i don't feel that it's a pride relative to this nation or that, but the consequence of the Sinocentric mentality of Chinamen. There is nothing very wrong with this, but I shun to have anything to do with this. Most Chinese would probably feel that I am some sort of national traitor that I prefer the West to the East, but with all my prejudices I can say that they are at least slightly more sophisticated ones than the ones I used to have.
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On March 15 2005 03:27 yeehaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 06:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now. ...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply. and irrevevelant example hello? Really, f you cant get your facts right it's better not to reply.
You clearly do not understand the hatred of Chinamen for nationalists fueled by incessant historical propaganda, and vice versa for Taiwan. If you don't understand the context in which I am speaking it's better to ask rather than dismiss. The point I was making was: the propaganda wars between China and Taiwan can breed idiots on both sides.
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On March 15 2005 07:42 Servolisk wrote:
Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks.
Yes, it seems to have turned out that way. The original point that people should not forecast China's hegemony got lost somewhere. I'm not trying to argue which culture I think is better, even though my personal preferences must have been long betrayed 
I am simply stating that I do not see China being followed by other nations. I see rather the contrary and there is no economic statistic which will change this fact.
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On March 15 2005 08:12 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 03:27 yeehaw wrote:On March 14 2005 06:41 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 02:04 yeehaw wrote:On March 13 2005 19:05 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 13 2005 19:01 KH1031 wrote:
Communists=barbarians
they don't talk, just do what they want
-_-
and for the record, I am from Taiwan. Nationalists = inefficient evil empire of power hungry warlords who double dealt with the Japanese to wipe the heroic communist resistance out. We can start spewing idiotic propaganda back and forth all day. Really, it would be a pleasant surprise some day to see someone from over there who bothers to think for themselves regarding politics. And you are an idiot. The Nationalists are not ruling Taiwan now. ...and when did I claim they were? Really, if you can't understand something it's better not to reply. and irrevevelant example hello? Really, f you cant get your facts right it's better not to reply. You clearly do not understand the hatred of Chinamen for nationalists fueled by incessant historical propaganda, and vice versa for Taiwan. If you don't understand the context in which I am speaking it's better to ask rather than dismiss. The point I was making was: the propaganda wars between China and Taiwan can breed idiots on both sides.
the sad thing is, that is still happening between China and Taiwan. I can hardly read any positive news or comments about China in Taiwanese news media.
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On March 15 2005 06:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language. I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer?
I'll ask you this before I start: Are you Chinese?
If you aren't, then it's okay for you to not comprehend what the Chinese culture is like.
You can find a book in French, Latin, and German in your library because you live in the West side of the sphere. There is actually a Chinese section in my local library (I live in Waterloo, Ontario) and plenty of Toronto libraries have Chinese sections as well. Chinatown has plenty of Chinese books, you are probably just not familiar with them. A lot of my caucasian friends are studying Chinese right now (whether from the Internet for fun or taking a Chinese course in their universities, and yes, they exist).
What makes it fair for you to level everything from English? What if you were to ask someone in China to name a famous English writer (maybe with the exception of Shakespeare)?
Have you ever heard of a book called Romance of the Three Kingdoms?
I don't think you actually know enough about China to actually critique it.
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Well, relating to philosopy or philosophers...I'm sure u've heard of Taoism..or Confucius?
Confucius say: "you go to jail, bad boy!"...
On March 15 2005 07:36 Dl33ter wrote:
I'd just like to respond to all those who present Sun Tzu's Art of War as an example of China's intellectual heritage that would put it on par with the West's. Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you.
There can be no question whatsoever that Western history of ideas has no match in that of China. What is the chinese equivalent to ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Enlightenment ? Who's their Plato, their Pascal, their Descartes, their Rousseau, their Nietzsche, their Heidegger ? Come on.
Now, no one will deny China's huge manpower, nuclear capabilities, etc and no one will deny that it is in a position to become a dominant influence on the world. But the truth of the matter is that China, nor Islam nor any other civilization in the foreseeable future, will be able to produce a superpower as radiant as the West has produced again and again because no other civilization parallels its tremendous intellectual baggage.
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I am Chinese and I am proud of my culture. All the bullshit I've been reading in this thread will just be my motivation to keep doing my part of job to make my country better and I hope billions of my people will feel the same way.
I am also sure that us other civilizations will be thankful to all the Western products, say Slavery, WorldWars, Nazis and NuclearBombs. We will stay in peace in the line that the Western drew for us, North/South Korea, China/Twain, etc. If you don't speak our language, I am sure it doesn't matter what we think anyways.
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By the way You may try to use other word than "Chinaman" to refer to us Chinese. If you are half intelligent as you are trying to pretend, you may already know about it.
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moltkewarding, you are basing your arguments primarily on what you've observed in the western world around you and your western education
has the possibility that you're being ignorant every crossed your mind?
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On March 15 2005 23:33 FeelTheMoment wrote:
f you don't speak our language, I am sure it doesn't matter what we think anyways.
*whew*
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This is quite sad, MoltkeWarding. i was migranted to another country when i was young just like you. But hey! what ever makes you tick i guess. Can you speak or read Chinese at a literal level? if not? how can you even begin to make comparisions?
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On March 15 2005 08:17 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 07:42 Servolisk wrote:
Why did this turn to a cultural measuring war? And it's subjective, so keep "Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you." to yourself, thanks. Yes, it seems to have turned out that way. The original point that people should not forecast China's hegemony got lost somewhere. I'm not trying to argue which culture I think is better, even though my personal preferences must have been long betrayed I am simply stating that I do not see China being followed by other nations. I see rather the contrary and there is no economic statistic which will change this fact.
When you actually gain power is when people start to notice....it doesnt go the other way around
Your cultural measuring stick seems to completely agree with this notion.
You measure cultural worth with the amount of influence it has.
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On March 15 2005 22:57 secrtagent wrote:Well, relating to philosopy or philosophers...I'm sure u've heard of Taoism..or Confucius? Confucius say: "you go to jail, bad boy!"... Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 07:36 Dl33ter wrote:
I'd just like to respond to all those who present Sun Tzu's Art of War as an example of China's intellectual heritage that would put it on par with the West's. Puh-lease. I'd take Machiavelli's Prince over the Art of War any single day of the week, and so should you.
There can be no question whatsoever that Western history of ideas has no match in that of China. What is the chinese equivalent to ancient Greece, ancient Rome, the Enlightenment ? Who's their Plato, their Pascal, their Descartes, their Rousseau, their Nietzsche, their Heidegger ? Come on.
Now, no one will deny China's huge manpower, nuclear capabilities, etc and no one will deny that it is in a position to become a dominant influence on the world. But the truth of the matter is that China, nor Islam nor any other civilization in the foreseeable future, will be able to produce a superpower as radiant as the West has produced again and again because no other civilization parallels its tremendous intellectual baggage.
LOL
But seriously, i won't even bother to counter this guy. We actually don't have any modern philosophers of qualities but that is due more to the nature of system and time in which we were living in. If you are going to bring up dead guys like Plato and Pascal then i would name you a few dead guys of our own but i'm sure you won't have a clue of what i'm going to tell you.
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On March 15 2005 19:12 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2005 06:24 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 14 2005 22:31 Cambium wrote:On March 14 2005 18:21 MolteWardingwrote:
It's kind of pathetic the kind of defensive nationalism people can start establishing, even among a people who have no real sense of their own history. Name me a single present day strategist who relies on Sun Tsu for their military thinking. Most Chinese proverbs i've heard here in Canada are made up. America today uses Roman characters, big deal. Because China was in certain ways technologically ahead of Europe thousands of years ago has absolutely no relevance today. China has no cultural prestige and besides the obvious attraction of exoticism, not a single form of its art, music, architecture (with the exception of the subliminal romantics) have found currency internationally nor does its language possess equal international status compared to English, French, German, Spanish or even Russian. Culture tourism is a sad business, and the entire multicultural mentality often distorts people from the products of their own history to one which they neither understand nor could appreciate. MolteWardingwrote, I read everything you said, and I think they are the most intelligent responses in this thread, and it's perfectly natural for different opinions to exist in an arguement (or else there wouldn't be one). BUT, don't downtalk the Chinese philosophy and language. Of course some of the proverbs are made up, they don't all have to express truth, they can also exist to express practical precept. The fact that no modern strategists use the thirty-six strategies from Sun-Tzu's Art of War is because they have become common sense by this time period not because they are ineffective. I'll give you a good example, US "stops" terrorism by capturing/"killing" Bin Ladin, and that is one of the strategies mentioned in the book (To defeat bad guys, kill their leader first) 27计策名称： 擒贼擒王 古人云： 挽弓当挽强,用箭当用长。射人先射马,擒贼先擒王。杀人亦有限,列国自有疆。苟能制侵陵,岂在多杀伤? China probably has the most cultural prestige in the world because of its long historical background. Just because you are not familiar with history Chinese music and arts background doesn't mean they don't exist. The charcoal writing and waterpaint painting are still practised today all over the world. Poems from the Tang and Song period are read and memorized by millions of Chinese people and some are even translated into English and other languages. As a language, Chinese may only be inferior to English, but not to French, German, Spanish or even Russian like you claimed. The fact that 1.5 billion people speak Chinese makes it a "strong" language. I really don't see this. I can see how Chinese painting may be superior to say, medieval European art, but I don't see how it can rival post-renaissance art. I also have never incidentally encountered any Chinese poems translated into English, nor can I imagine them to have any meaning in this language. To me its simply untranslatable while retaining its poetic form. Again, we are speaking of cultural achievements from a period which is long past. I do not know whether this is reflective of an oriental form of traditionalism or characterizes China's cultural retardation for the past few centuries. As a language, I do not think so. I can go to the local library and find thousands of books in Germany, French, Latin etc. All of which relate to innumerous academic subjects our modern understanding of which we have inherited from the speakers of those languages. Besides the children's section of the municipal library with a few hundred volumes, and Chinatowns I have never seen Chinese books. I do not see anyone apart from Chinese people speaking Chinese (In fact i've only seen one white person ever who has spoken Chinese anything short of terrible). I realize that its easier for an English speaker to learn French or German, but I also think that the greater prestige of these languages, with which English speakers are at least vaguely familiar through Alexander Dumas, Gustav Flaubert, Goethe, etc. How many people here can name the title of even one Chinese book or writer? I'll ask you this before I start: Are you Chinese? If you aren't, then it's okay for you to not comprehend what the Chinese culture is like. You can find a book in French, Latin, and German in your library because you live in the West side of the sphere. There is actually a Chinese section in my local library (I live in Waterloo, Ontario) and plenty of Toronto libraries have Chinese sections as well. Chinatown has plenty of Chinese books, you are probably just not familiar with them. A lot of my caucasian friends are studying Chinese right now (whether from the Internet for fun or taking a Chinese course in their universities, and yes, they exist). What makes it fair for you to level everything from English? What if you were to ask someone in China to name a famous English writer ( maybe with the exception of Shakespeare)? Have you ever heard of a book called Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I don't think you actually know enough about China to actually critique it.
What do you mean am I chinese? I am a citizen of Canada who was born in China. Technically I am a "hyphenated Canadian", in character I resemble neither very much.
Let me put this simply: An English speaking person can tell you about writers and books in French, German, Latin, Greek, etc. A German, French, Greek, Italian, Mexican, Japanese speaking person can tell you about writers in books in English (according to some reports, Anne of Green Gables is doing better in Japan than in Canada). No one outside China has read anything Chinese.
Yes, I did read Chinese books back when it was my first language. I was fairly young, but I read at an adult level. Although I never read 3 Kdms. Now I can no longer read it and really cannot say that I am regretful.
Yes, you mentioned the same things as I did in your second paragraph. I was pointing out the contrast between the sheer volume of the two languages. Sometimes I feel there are more German books in our library than English. Something you can't say with Chinese.
I think its fairly safe to guess in most Eastern, non-Chinese countries there are more English than Mandarin books too.
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