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On March 16 2005 12:28 FeelTheMoment wrote:
Taiwan would be one of those semi-autonomous territory instead of a province. However those SATs are province-level.
It was not guessing, you stated in your previous post and I just pointed it out. Please get your logical ability and your facts straight before arguing with me. Thanks. I will work on my English at the same time
On March 16 2005 12:28 FeelTheMoment wrote:
Taiwan would be one of those semi-autonomous territory instead of a province. However those SATs are province-level.
It was not guessing, you stated in your previous post and I just pointed it out. Please get your logical ability and your facts straight before arguing with me. Thanks. I will work on my English at the same time
There are several states of provinces in China. Semi-autonomous territories exist because they are claimed by different ethnicities, a claim which does not include Taiwan. Hence HK and Macao are not SAT but self-governing cities.
Sorry, I did not take your statement as a matter of fact, because I do not take seriously your claim that you follow world news or have a high understanding of other cultures. No Chinese person has in my experience, and that is more than simply two or three. I have never heard Chinese people voice any important opinions on issues in most of the world. The United States and important things like Iraq I grant you, but not much more. As for the culture, I don't think Chinese people can tell you much beyond "pop" culture of foreign nations, which I don't consider culture at all. You're welcome to prove me wrong.
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Saying a whole country of people don't care about world news is ridiculous. I guess billions of newpaper published in China just had those world news sections for decoration purpose.
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China's silence on many issues worldwide is the government's choice. It does not mean no one cares or no one know about it. It is not 70s anymore...
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On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense.
"Who cares?"
Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch.
Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last?
How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from?
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On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from?
If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others.
"None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul.
The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe:
It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same.
Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing.
Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better.
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why cant we all just get along.
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On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better.
You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years?
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On March 16 2005 16:36 0_0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better. You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years?
And my point is: what business is it of yours what is in Japanese history text books? Do you really think Japan will invade China again? No. It's all bogus.
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On March 16 2005 16:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 16:36 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better. You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years? And my point is: what business is it of yours what is in Japanese history text books? Do you really think Japan will invade China again? No. It's all bogus.
Stop talking out of your ass. Neither you or I can predict the future but for some one who hasn't set foot in Asia in the last ten years, i don't think you should make judgements about what should be or should not be.
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On March 16 2005 16:51 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2005 16:36 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 15:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 13:06 0_0 wrote:On March 16 2005 12:02 MoltkeWarding wrote:On March 16 2005 11:53 FeelTheMoment wrote:1992 at the latest. In Canada I remember being shown propaganda films on the subject of the Chinese civil war by a Chinese cultural community in the University campus. Yes, Germans and Russians slaughtered each other by the millions. After the breakup of the USSR Germany was the largest donor of aid to Russia and president Putin speaks German in friendly tones. Blaming Japan is just another part of the baggage which incidentally involves blaming nationalists, blaming imperialists, etc. You can't tell me it's unrelated to propaganda. Although Im aware its unreasonable to except the Chinese to adopt the same attitude as Europeans regarding the great wars. Of course we wouldn't. Germany government has been officially appolgized to the victims in World War II in many many occasions, while Japan never did. They rewrote their history book trying to redefine their role in WWII as a victim too because of the bombing. They claim they brought freedom to the Asia, while what they did was pretty much killing and robbing. Do you think jewish people could possbily make peace with Germany if they still try to hide the history fact and lie about the past? The current focus of this China government is economy. During the past 4 years there were over 2000 billion dollars investment pouring in China. If China hasn't been spoken up, it is because it is not good time yet. As a side note, China is the major reason that the talk between North Korea and US continues. I am really tired that you apply your very limited personal experience and apply it to a whole country. While you were in China you maybe didn't care about world news or had a general idea of other cultures, but we do. If you never meet a western person in your life who is fascinated to Chinese culture and speaks good Chinese, it doesn't mean they do not exist. Who cares. China distorts her history at least as much as Japan. It's unreasonable to expect either country to look at her past honestly by other standards. The only thing China will get out of it is the will to humiliate Japan morally and the moral self-satisfaction of having her enemy admitting it. And it's completely understandable that Japan will not provide that pleasure. I was not aware that talks between N Korea and USA were continuing.... Personal experience is one of the three methods of obtaining knowledge. The others being the rational and the authoritative. If you think my experiences are not representative of something then you can provide your own, but debate the issue, not a person's competence to debate that issue. And sorry, but anyone who thinks that China exerts a comparable influence on the West to the West's influence on her is delusional, by disregarding common sense. "Who cares?" Maybe you should ask the Korean "comfort women" or the families of the millions of innocent people the Japanese soldiers slaughtered in their senseless rampages? Not to sound harsh, but the Japanese war criminals do not deserve any prayers. Why do you put war criminals in quotes? Have you ever heard of the Rape of Nanking, have you seen any pictures? I'm sure that would dispell any doubts about their guilt. I'm sure you see people in Germany praying to the graves of the Hilter, Goering, Himmler, and that bunch. Just because China "distorts" their history, does not mean it is okay for the Japanese to simply "forget" the horrors they did to others in the past. Its appalling how much they've covered up, I remember last year a Japanese exchange student came to our school, we had some presentations about various things in history. Someone did a report on the Rape of Nanking, and the Japanese kid saw it, he flat out denied it happened. Its not not his fault, its all been covered up in Japan. There are tons of Japanese books and websites out there flat out denying the Rape of Nanking occurred, saying that it was just a "propaganda stunt" by the Chinese govt. What the hell? How about if I write a book about how the holocaust was all a sham? How long do you think I would last? How can we learn from the past if there is no past to learn from? If the Chinese were concerned about justice in a liberal manner perhaps they would care to evaluate their own past before they blame the crimes of others. "None are righteous. In judging others, you condemn yourself"- St. Paul. The fact that you think that people, even those who have committed atrocities are not deserving of grace is a mentality I do not want to be associated with. I am very much interested in history, you don't need to cite the details of the sino-Japanese conflict to me. I also see across its tattered landscape a difference between those who are willing to be humble and those who are vengeful and cannot let go of their ancient prejudices. I'm not trying to moralize to anyone here, but I will state this as I believe: It is quite wrong for people to see the past as nothing but a collection of injustices committed by one people against another. Besides the obvious misuses of such evidence, such as self-pity and breeding hatred, it arises from an unrealistic expectation of the world. Would you like me to list all the evidences of Chinese atrocities in their history? Perhaps you would like to share that burden of guilt of your ancestors. It's only fair if you want today's Japanese generation- a generation which has nothing to do with the Second World War and has no hostile designs against China to do the same. Now you say Germany apologized for its treatment of Poles, Jews, and pretty much everyone else. Fine. Has the Soviet Union ever apologized for its treatment of Germans in 1945? How about the Poles? How about the Americans for the a-bombs on Japan? How about the Russians for the katyn massacre? How about the British for Dresden? How about the Croats and Serbs, etc? If you think history can do justice to every single nation or person, think again. I see in the Chinese demand for national apology nothing but national vanity and a hostile desire to humilate Japan. Did you suffer at the hands of Japanese troops? What is an apology for you, except to boost your nationalistic self-esteem? History, especially history in the West is not comparable to a court of law. The purpose of law is justice. The purpose of history is truth (and understanding). And despite overlapping interests, justice and truth are not the same thing. Is it okay for Japan to deceive themselves? No. But the moral honesty of Japanese people is not your problem. Look at yourself first and ask yourself if you and your country are any better. You seem to be missing the point here. I'm not saying that they have to have some type of a huge public apology or anything, but I think they should at least address the issue in their text books and admit that they were wrong. Otherwise, who is to say this won't happen again in 50 years? And my point is: what business is it of yours what is in Japanese history text books? Do you really think Japan will invade China again? No. It's all bogus.
Yes, it is my business. If they don't acknowledge, or at least realize that what they did is wrong, it may very well repeat itself. You don't seem to understand, they are completely covering this up, they don't feel that what they did was wrong. What is keeping them from doing it again? You dismiss it as being bogus, but who are you to say that it is bogus?
On the topic of war criminals, I feel that their families should be allowed to visit the graves, but I don't think they should be "given praise or prayer" or anything of that sort for their heinous crimes in the war. I'm sure they gave a lot of thought about that to the victims of their raping and killing.
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