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I think this "OMFG!?! Competition needs to be FAIR!!!" is massively oversimplifying the situation...
In my opinion that's a Micky Mouse pipe dream that's not attainable in real life. There will always be more and more options to cheat (let's keep the argument on progaming) with medications. There will always be people using those, whether there is a risk to get caught or not...
Sometimes people get caught, sometimes they don't... So your idol may be using them and you wouldn't even know it.
Wouldn't a more pragmatic approach be to just not drug test at all? I know that's far from ideal and in some cases even dangerous, but testing is really more of an alibi solution. "Look we're doing something against unfair advantages!" But the people that don't get caught enjoy the advantage without repercussions. So the competition couldn't EVER be clean either way...
Isn't NOT testing just cheaper and easier?
I do realize there is strong arguments for both options and some options in between, so the debate will probably rage on for decades to come...
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On February 19 2011 02:51 mcbrite wrote:
I think this "OMFG!?! Competition needs to be FAIR!!!" is massively oversimplifying the situation...
In my opinion that's a Micky Mouse pipe dream that's not attainable in real life. There will always be more and more options to cheat (let's keep the argument on progaming) with medications. There will always be people using those, whether there is a risk to get caught or not...
Sometimes people get caught, sometimes they don't... So your idol may be using them and you wouldn't even know it.
Wouldn't a more pragmatic approach be to just not drug test at all? I know that's far from ideal and in some cases even dangerous, but testing is really more of an alibi solution. "Look we're doing something against unfair advantages!" But the people that don't get caught enjoy the advantage without repercussions. So the competition couldn't EVER be clean either way...
Isn't NOT testing just cheaper and easier?
I do realize there is strong arguments for both options and some options in between, so the debate will probably rage on for decades to come...
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
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On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice...
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I agree with mcbrite, also because where do you draw the line between someone who is prescribed it for a medical condition (such as ADHD or narcolepsy), and someone who is "prescribed it" for a "medical condition".
Also where do you draw the line between modafinil/adderall and caffeine? Just because ones legal and marketable in sweet skinny blue cans of red bull doesn't really change the fact that you could consider both "performance enhancing".
It's still your brain. It's not like it gives you map hacks.
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I have narcolepsy and as a result I was prescribed Modafonil. My quality of life has increased GREATLY since I started taking it because I am able to get up in the morning and function like a regular person instead of feeling lazy and useless, spending 15+ hours in bed.
However, I have really annoying twitches that I can't control now, and my mind sometimes races too much when i try to go to sleep and I have a shorter temper than usual.
People always talk about no-side effects for the drug but the side effects is WHY u are taking the drug. It's not like the chemical in the drug is explicitly supposed to make you better at starcraft (or for my case cure narcolepsy). What it's doing to your body is totally up to the way your body takes it and what other unknown effects it has on your system.
So really it's up to the user to choose if they want to use it for a certain purpose (smoke weed for relaxation, do coke etc) because ultimately the drug will affect us differently and the consequences of it vary with usage.
To me modafinil is like a crutch that helps me walk around since I normally can't walk around that well (metaphorically) but once I strengthen my legs hopefully I won't need it anymore.
Taking this drug as an enhancement to something is the same as any doping/sterioids or even just taking coffee to make you perform better. But as I said earlier the enhancement is usually not JUST the enhancement but whatever else your body reacts to the chemical in addition.
In sc2 the player with more knowledge and practice will usually be the winner, modafinil may help you play clearer (or so it may seem) but you can reach the same level with practice really. It's not like you can move your hands faster because the drug gives you more energy, no. You have the energy but certain inhibitions are gone, which once again can be aided with practice.
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On February 19 2011 03:01 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice...
Except when they are doping and gaining an unfair advantage over other players who are dedicating a lot of time and money into winning a tournament. Sorry, but your logic is flawed.
If they did it while they laddered, I would say "who cares?" But in tournament play, it is definitely a problem.
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The ethics debate is absolutely retarded on this point. It's like comparing IQs and saying it's unfair how some people are born stupid and some intelligent when both have the desire to be a progamer.
Anyone that wants to abuse antidepressants for the benefit of a videogame probbaly has a sad life and needs those drugs regardless. The top tier pros? Non-issue as this isn't the first thread about such things.
And while OPs testament may be the truth for him, he is a self admitted newb who can't play the game. For gosus who know how to play, maybe this could help, maybe not. But for a videogame that is 95% based off of online competition the reality is it's impossible to drug screen and test (not only expensive and stupid) for non-lan event tournament. And when the times comes IF a player at a non-lan tournament WAS drug tested for this shit - they would have alegal prescription. Any corporate organization that tries to infringe on a citizens right to take prescribed medication is going to be in for a world of hurt and thus their PR people would let the gamers pop their pills rendering any discussion moot.
So whats the point of this again? Is it ehtical for people to take thier prescribed medication? Yes. Is it unethical to buy riddalin off your classmate to pop before SC games? Um.. maybe.. depends on the results? Is it unethical for all those stoners that toke up before games? No cause weed makes youj worse right? It's just the human condition, ethics don't come into play unless you are useing some 3rd party software (hacks) that give you direct advantage over the in game scenarios.
For brain-effecting criteria: coffee, alcohol, sugar and general hunger all mess with the brains cognotive abilities. Analyizing substance by substance under a microscrop would be a better university thesis than "wow starcraft and progaming = so cool" but its worth two squirts of piss in the world of policy and actually -doing shit-
silly silly thread
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Don't a SHITLOAD of poker pros constantly admit to taking things like modafinil and adderall? I could be wrong I don't follow poker that much but I could have sworn I remember reading about that.
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On February 19 2011 03:12 MiniRoman wrote:
The ethics debate is absolutely retarded on this point. It's like comparing IQs and saying it's unfair how some people are born stupid and some intelligent when both have the desire to be a progamer.
Anyone that wants to abuse antidepressants for the benefit of a videogame probbaly has a sad life and needs those drugs regardless. The top tier pros? Non-issue as this isn't the first thread about such things.
And while OPs testament may be the truth for him, he is a self admitted newb who can't play the game. For gosus who know how to play, maybe this could help, maybe not. But for a videogame that is 95% based off of online competition the reality is it's impossible to drug screen and test (not only expensive and stupid) for non-lan event tournament. And when the times comes IF a player at a non-lan tournament WAS drug tested for this shit - they would have alegal prescription. Any corporate organization that tries to infringe on a citizens right to take prescribed medication is going to be in for a world of hurt and thus their PR people would let the gamers pop their pills rendering any discussion moot.
So whats the point of this again? Is it ehtical for people to take thier prescribed medication? Yes. Is it unethical to buy riddalin off your classmate to pop before SC games? Um.. maybe.. depends on the results? Is it unethical for all those stoners that toke up before games? No cause weed makes youj worse right? It's just the human condition, ethics don't come into play unless you are useing some 3rd party software (hacks) that give you direct advantage over the in game scenarios.
For brain-effecting criteria: coffee, alcohol, sugar and general hunger all mess with the brains cognotive abilities. Analyizing substance by substance under a microscrop would be a better university thesis than "wow starcraft and progaming = so cool" but its worth two squirts of piss in the world of policy and actually -doing shit-
silly silly thread
This is a pretty bad post that doesn't really deserve a response, but I'll give one anyway.
Let me show you the flaw with your convoluted argument: Matches aren't always newb vs newb or newb vs pro. Sometimes, very rarely, a pro vs pro match occurs. Typically pros are relatively evenly matched, but when one of them is abusing Adderal, or modafinil, or ritalin, then it really becomes a problem. In this instance, ethics DOES become a legitimate issue. These pros make a living playing starcraft (Or other games where focus is beneficial). Just because it's a game doesn't make this any less of an issue than steroids for pro ball-players....
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On February 19 2011 03:01 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice...
What if their is no physical damage? And they win the GSL grand prize cause they were just a little speedy. Although I really don't think this is a big deal, it's not even close to as much of an advantage as something like blood doping.
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I remember reading a post by someone that went on Addreall before a major BW tournament and said it ended up making him play worse. He spent too much time focusing on micro while it hurt his macro/multitasking. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
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On February 19 2011 03:17 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:01 mcbrite wrote:On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice... What if their is no physical damage? And they win the GSL grand prize cause they were just a little speedy. Although I really don't think this is a big deal, it's not even close to as much of an advantage as something like blood doping.
Then I wouldn't respect the player OR the tournament in that case. Rooster said it better then me.
but
If it was Revealed tomorrow that everyone in the GSL had too take modafinil too make sure that no-one WASN'T ,then I'd just stop watching, and never pay GSL for anything again.
ITS pure and simple SKILL that needs too be applauded. Not focus boosters and artificial enhancers. (fuck the red bull argument also its not the same thing)
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On February 19 2011 03:20 DoubleZee wrote:
I remember reading a post by someone that went on Addreall before a major BW tournament and said it ended up making him play worse. He spent too much time focusing on micro while it hurt his macro/multitasking. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Definitely sounds right, I doubt adderall would help in SC unless you also practiced with adderall too. In which case you are probably just going to destroy your body and gain no mental advantage whatsoever.
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If you're suffering from narcolepsy you might be interested in changing from a normal sleep schedule to polyphasic sleep, just throwing out the possibility.
Back on topic, as with 'normal' sports drug use in e-sports should be banned by the leagues, I only know back in the days some Counter-strike players used to take it.
As usual, the regulations can be easily enforced at LAN plan, where the high-level is at, but what's with the regular online play? There's no way to test there, and if there's the possibility that your opponent can use enhancer and get away with it easily, that sucks.
Well, but I guess its mostly important for high-level play, I don't think anyone cares about the online stuff enough to use enhancers?
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On February 19 2011 03:16 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:12 MiniRoman wrote:
The ethics debate is absolutely retarded on this point. It's like comparing IQs and saying it's unfair how some people are born stupid and some intelligent when both have the desire to be a progamer.
Anyone that wants to abuse antidepressants for the benefit of a videogame probbaly has a sad life and needs those drugs regardless. The top tier pros? Non-issue as this isn't the first thread about such things.
And while OPs testament may be the truth for him, he is a self admitted newb who can't play the game. For gosus who know how to play, maybe this could help, maybe not. But for a videogame that is 95% based off of online competition the reality is it's impossible to drug screen and test (not only expensive and stupid) for non-lan event tournament. And when the times comes IF a player at a non-lan tournament WAS drug tested for this shit - they would have alegal prescription. Any corporate organization that tries to infringe on a citizens right to take prescribed medication is going to be in for a world of hurt and thus their PR people would let the gamers pop their pills rendering any discussion moot.
So whats the point of this again? Is it ehtical for people to take thier prescribed medication? Yes. Is it unethical to buy riddalin off your classmate to pop before SC games? Um.. maybe.. depends on the results? Is it unethical for all those stoners that toke up before games? No cause weed makes youj worse right? It's just the human condition, ethics don't come into play unless you are useing some 3rd party software (hacks) that give you direct advantage over the in game scenarios.
For brain-effecting criteria: coffee, alcohol, sugar and general hunger all mess with the brains cognotive abilities. Analyizing substance by substance under a microscrop would be a better university thesis than "wow starcraft and progaming = so cool" but its worth two squirts of piss in the world of policy and actually -doing shit-
silly silly thread This is a pretty bad post that doesn't really deserve a response, but I'll give one anyway. Let me show you the flaw with your convoluted argument: Matches aren't always newb vs newb or newb vs pro. Sometimes, very rarely, a pro vs pro match occurs. Typically pros are relatively evenly matched, but when one of them is abusing Adderal, or modafinil, or ritalin, then it really becomes a problem. In this instance, ethics DOES become a legitimate issue. These pros make a living playing starcraft (Or other games where focus is beneficial). Just because it's a game doesn't make this any less of an issue than steroids for pro ball-players....
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ya, nice reply, lots of effort and orginal thought involved. I'm very happy you quoted me and gave me the grace of your attention.
Now that the sarcasm is over here is why you are stupid
Yes I understand all of that. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that the likelyhood of a person abusing perscription drugs like the ones talked about in this thread without their own perscription is like .1%. Phara drugs cost a lot mor ethan street drugs, are harder to come by, and the dealers that do sell them don't have a permanant supply like one that sells weed or coke.
Drug testing over the internet is impossible. Even the biggest of idiots can see that. Drug testing in real life, example: MLG, is a possibility but once again - if you actually know how substance abuse works and the illegal foundation to support it - you know that anyone tested positive for this shit will have a legal prescription. Any organization in authority that prevents a person from taking their prescribed medication will be commiting suicide through lawsuits and bad publicity.
People won't abuse this shit for professional advancement. To those saying "eventually" the proscence for Broodwar has existed for over a decade. These concerns, this whole thread, is nothing new. It's already been talked about and hey -- match trading was the big scandle of progaming. Not people taking antidepressants.
the final point: anyone actually useing these at professional level will have a valid prescription (and hence reason) for useing it. Doctors don't give a fuck about your want to "have really really good multitask in starcraft" when it comes to prescribing shit like this. Ofcourse I am Canadian so my past experience is based off of canadian doctors but still - you're retarded if you think this is a serious issue.
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I can tell you one thing, I find it sad enough that starcraft pro's have to make such huge sacrifices as it is in the regard that they really are forced into training some 10-14 hours a day, every day, if they want to be able to stay on top of their game. Probably missing out on a lot of physical activities and sleep as well.
However, such is the nature of the game when starcraft practice as opposed to practice in conventional sports isn't physically demanding and as such permits the players to spend a ridiculous amount of time playing.
So if I, on top of that, found out that these kids felt they had to be taking psychoactive substances to be able to keep up, that would be the point where I lose interest in competitive starcraft. It's not worth sacrificing mental/physical health even though I know it's their own decision, I couldn't support an e-sport like that.
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As a biologist, I have to say that this is not a long-term solution for anyone. First of all, the drug is is aimed to prevent feelings of sleepiness and increase alertness, but presumably one might not need this if they are already hyper-focused due to high concentrations of epinephrine in tournaments.
Even if it were true that it increased alertness in people who are already hyper-alert, this is not a long-term fix. You can't practice without the drug efficiently if you're using it in competition, and you can't use it all the time or you will come to rely upon it. If your illegal source for it dries up, then you might see your results plummet. On top of that, the effects might dampen over time and then where are you? Finally, what if someone finds out you're abusing this? Too many long-term risks in my opinion.
Finally, to the OP, it seems to me that some random dude who's like gold league who usually ladders in a semi-interested fashion would definitely benefit. After all, maybe you sometimes ladder when you're a bit sleepy...However, a pro who has 1000's of dollars on the line won't really need it and shouldn't use it for a number of reasons.
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If any of you have known people who abused amphetamine to stay awake while drinking, you know that it makes you lose appetite and you can't go to sleep from it, some people have told me that while under the influence of amphetamine they could think faster, the phrase one guy used was "it just clicked and I did everything right".
So I guess this drug Modafinil is like that only with minor side effects (ones that don't make you go insane hopefully).
When I read the thread I was considering trying it just to see how it could affect my game, but when I read it leads to loss of appetite I knew exactly what it was, so for me using drugs like Modafinil to play better is bad.
If it didn't have such negative effects on health I would probably use it and would support the use of it.
But seeing as how I have a bad appetite I can't afford to use something like that, I'll just die of starvation.
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Yes I understand all of that. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that the likelyhood of a person abusing perscription drugs like the ones talked about in this thread without their own perscription is like .1%. Phara drugs cost a lot mor ethan street drugs, are harder to come by, and the dealers that do sell them don't have a permanant supply like one that sells weed or coke.
You never once mentioned in your original post the reality that the issue is pro vs pro matches where the drugs are being used.
Drug testing over the internet is impossible. Even the biggest of idiots can see that. Drug testing in real life, example: MLG, is a possibility but once again - if you actually know how substance abuse works and the illegal foundation to support it - you know that anyone tested positive for this shit will have a legal prescription. Any organization in authority that prevents a person from taking their prescribed medication will be commiting suicide through lawsuits and bad publicity. Obviously, when anyone enters an internet tournament (none of which compare to the scale of LANs, MLG, or GSL) they understand that there is a good possibility that their opponent will be on something. Whether they are drunk, smoked weed, or are on a focus drug. Also, regardless of whether they have a perscription or not, if they have taken a focus drug that day, they should be disqualified. Focus drugs are generally not necessary for normal bodily function, unless a person is insane, or is a toddler with severe ADHD. There are lots of possibilities with drug screening, and it's up to MLG to make their own policy. I sincerely doubt anyone will commit suicide in the 6-7 hours they are at a tournament.
People won't abuse this shit for professional advancement. To those saying "eventually" the proscence for Broodwar has existed for over a decade. These concerns, this whole thread, is nothing new. It's already been talked about and hey -- match trading was the big scandle of progaming. Not people taking antidepressants. Yes they will, and do. It is known that Korean progamers sometimes take ritalin to focus on starcraft, and it is also known to some that famous SC2 gamers, such as PainUser abuse adderol for their profession.
the final point: anyone actually useing these at professional level will have a valid prescription (and hence reason) for useing it. Doctors don't give a fuck about your want to "have really really good multitask in starcraft" when it comes to prescribing shit like this. Ofcourse I am Canadian so my past experience is based off of canadian doctors but still - you're retarded if you think this is a serious issue. You're insinuating that it is impossible to get these drugs without a prescription, or that it is impossible to get a prescription without having an actual, legitimate, need for these drugs, which it is most certainly nod impossible.
In California, I could go to a doctor and say "My back hurts so bad that I can't live with the pain. I need a prescription for marijuana" And I will walk out 5 minutes later with a prescription. If they want it bad enough, they will get it.
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Yes, you say you could do that. But you're just some dumbass kid who hasn't tried, so why would I take your word for it?
Going to work now but i'll decimate you later with an edit. lol.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
