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Hey guys!
I'm pretty surprised, that I haven't heard anything about pro gamers using medications to improve their play like basically all other athletes do all over the world.
For example: I recently got prescribed Modafinil and let me tell you:
I could feel a definite improvement in my first game... My apm was higher by default, I didn't forget overlords (like I normally do all day every day), remembered updates, creep spread and lava injects and felt like I had better unit control.
Now, if I as a complete noob instantly recognize massive improvements in my play, I could only imagine how much of an improvement a real pro gamer could get from this drug or maybe other drugs that work in similar ways like Ritalin and Co.
Given that Modafinil has very few side-effects, I'd have thought that pro-gamers would be popping these like gummibears?
(PS: Of course MY intake of Modafinil has nothing to do with gaming, but since it's half-time in the body is about 15 hours you'll definitely still be under it's influence once you start gaming in the afternoon.)
Poll: Is it ethical to use brain doping at a professional level in gaming?No, I don't agree with doping in pro-level gaming (191) 75% Yes, I see nothing wrong with using all options available to become the best player you can. (51) 20% Hmmm, can't make up my mind (12) 5% 254 total votes Your vote: Is it ethical to use brain doping at a professional level in gaming? (Vote): Yes, I see nothing wrong with using all options available to become the best player you can.
(Vote): No, I don't agree with doping in pro-level gaming
(Vote): Hmmm, can't make up my mind
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It could be a placebo. I wouldn't believe it until testing takes place in a double blind experiment.
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On February 18 2011 22:50 Bleak wrote:
It could be a placebo. I wouldn't believe it until testing takes place in a double blind experiment.
Even the military uses it for fighter pilots and even NASA for Astronauts, so I highly doubt that...
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Remember that nobody has determined Modafinil's long term effects. For all you know, using it on a daily basis to improve performance over the span of a pro-gaming career could end up giving you brain damage.
It's also already in the prohibited list of the World Anti-Doping Agency, so people know about it already.
Edit; to answer the question, no, I don't think it's ethical. Will it happen? Probably.
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The thing is your starting point is lover then that of healthy mind, as is that of astronauts and fighter pilots(due to the nature of their work habitat), so its not entirely conclusive how much it would help someone who doesnt have a medical need for it.
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I do not agree with doping (in the sense of taking drugs / medications) to boost your skills. On the other hand, it really depends on your lifestyle (what you eat, if you take vitamins, are you a smoker, do you drink alcohol often, etc.) if you can focus & concentrate for a long time. Many people are "buffed" by default, just by their normal lifestyle and the treatments they take to themselves on a daily basis.
But: Taking a medication right before you start playing competitively can be considered cheating, at least from my point of view.
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On February 18 2011 23:02 Sfydjklm wrote:
The thing is your starting point is lover then that of healthy mind, as is that of astronauts and fighter pilots(due to the nature of their work habitat), so its not entirely conclusive how much it would help someone who doesnt have a medical need for it.
From what I've read, anyone can use it to improve performance and concentration in a variety of fields, such as basketball, for one example. It does work on people who don't need it. Unless what I'm reading is wrong, of course.
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I have this as well and have never noticed any difference while taking it in regards to gaming or otherwise. It just makes me stay up and gives me dry mouth haha. Also IIRC it's cognitive effects don't scale very well; ie they have more of an effect on people who are already thinking very proficiently as opposed to those less intelligent. Due to the nature of sc2 I don't think it would have much effect on pros because they are already 100% focused and attentive when they play, but for someone not at that level I can see how it would increase their skill.
Though I'll agree modafinil is a crazy drug with how effective it is with little to no side-effects. I take it only as needed because I could see how someone could get easily addicted to this stuff. But really as far as doping goes normal amphetamine salts would be more effective and considerably cheaper.
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I voted "Yes, I see nothing wrong with using all options available to become the best player you can."
But that's because the way I see it, commercial use has always been the best fuel for improvements.
Instead of a ton of money going into research on how to hide and detect said substances, the money could've gone into research on what other uses it might have, what the side effects are, and if we could do something about the side effects.
And then there's some in my opinion hypocritical rules on what's regarded as doping. Coffe is considered doping in most olympic games, but loading up on carbs (pasta) isn't, and niether is alcohol (was watching mens high jump and a guy was drinking alcohol to calm down his nerves).
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The problem with using amphetamine-like drugs like Modafinil or Concerta/Ritalin is that after a while (this isn't gonna happen today or tomorrow but in 2 years time rather) you will not be able to play Starcraft without the "boost".
The coated pills you're using (sorry don't know the proper word) are supposed to prevent that (because you don't get a rush) but I have lots of friends who are using Ritalin who are not able to do anything "boring" without that sweet rush.
I really hate all these "magic pills without side effects" that doctors prescribe like they're tic-tacs but then 3 years later your life SUCKS. Lyrica is another one of those magic drugs doctors looove to prescribe because they are "not addictive" and has "no sideeffects"...
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On February 18 2011 23:17 0tso wrote:
The problem with using amphetamine-like drugs like Modafinil or Concerta/Ritalin is that after a while (this isn't gonna happen today or tomorrow but in 2 years time rather) you will not be able to play Starcraft without the "boost".
The coated pills you're using (sorry don't know the proper word) are supposed to prevent that (because you don't get a rush) but I have lots of friends who are using Ritalin who are not able to do anything "boring" without that sweet rush.
I really hate all these "magic pills without side effects" that doctors prescribe like they're tic-tacs but then 3 years later your life SUCKS. Lyrica is another one of those magic drugs doctors looove to prescribe because they are "not addictive" and has "no sideeffects"...
It's all under the illusion that any problem in life can be solved by a pill as opposed to hard work and dedication.
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I'm about to start this prescription also! I'm getting it because I work as a web developer and go to art school which means I have been chronically missing sleep for about 5 years now, and this is supposed to help my sleep at night because I will be more focused and get more done during the day.
@Ultramus: I'm just curious what level and APM you play at currently, do you find that it helps combat mental fatigue from longer games? Personally I think Modafinil is better then amphetamine because it doesn't raise your heart and wouldn't negatively affect your decision making while under pressure like Amphetamine would.
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As long as the drug doesn't harm you physically or mentally, but even then it would change many things in competitive gaming.
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Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again.
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Modafinil is the go-to drug for a whole list of illnesses- from MS to cocaine withdrawal. It's hard to imagine a doctor prescribing it to a young pro-gamer, and without a prescription you're out of luck. Unless you cross the line and start breaking laws, joining the company of notables like Savior and go.go. Keep it clean - let Stork win PvT, Skyhigh TvT and coin-toss for ZvZ. Like it's supposed to be.
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On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again.
Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.).
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On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.).
I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2.
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On February 18 2011 23:19 Fateless wrote:
I'm about to start this prescription also! I'm getting it because I work as a web developer and go to art school which means I have been chronically missing sleep for about 5 years now, and this is supposed to help my sleep at night because I will be more focused and get more done during the day.
@Ultramus: I'm just curious what level and APM you play at currently, do you find that it helps combat mental fatigue from longer games? Personally I think Modafinil is better then amphetamine because it doesn't raise your heart and wouldn't negatively affect your decision making while under pressure like Amphetamine would.
I normally average about 120ish APM, zerg player and I don't ladder very much. I am however a top tier FPS player and I noticed no difference when I was on it, but competitive FPS you reach a skill ceiling pretty quickly where the game limits you. The same applies to starcraft 2 really, it won't make your workers mine faster or make units build quicker, it can help with mechanics but for pros their mechanics aren't the limiting factor.
I could however see it used to get extra practice time, that's a definite concern.
Also for those wondering, modafinil isn't some miracle drug, it's not even indicated for ADHD, which is where most of the abuse with these meds comes from, MDs too readily prescribing, not that it is entirely there fault as people are quite demanding of physicians. It's indicated for Narcolepsy and Shift Work sleep disorder. It's related to amphetamines but doesn't increase your heartrate or give you the jitteriness like caffeine or ritalin/adderall would. It also will only(AFAIK) cause a functional addiction and not a physical one, if you stop taking it you won't all of a sudden be narcoleptic and it does not cause any euphoric sensation while on it either.
Debating the ethics of other drugs and their diversion/overprescription is a topic for another thread. Sadly retail I couldn't care less about when i see the issues that go on at the hospital level. However this is a thread about modafinil specifically.
Also for anyone curious I do believe that the prodrug of modafinil, adrafinil, is unregulated in the US and can be purchased on the net without an Rx. And at a considerably cheaper price than the $500+ 30 tablets of modafinil cost.
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On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2.
People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company.
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People say little too no side effects but this and other stimulants/amphetaminal drugs have been linked to loss of appetite, lack of desire to sleep and ability too sleep, and these 2 combined can stunt growth.
just saying from experience and from research and speaking to my doctor.
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This sounds a lot like the MLG kids that (mis)use Adderal for Halo.
In either case, I can't see it being legal/ethical for competition, but the lines blur when someone has a "legit" prescription for them.
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On February 19 2011 00:06 number1gog wrote:
This sounds a lot like the MLG kids that (mis)use Adderal for Halo.
In either case, I can't see it being legal/ethical for competition, but the lines blur when someone has a "legit" prescription for them.
You mean like most of the smokers in California that have "legit" need for medicinal marijuana?
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On February 19 2011 00:03 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 23:19 Fateless wrote:
I'm about to start this prescription also! I'm getting it because I work as a web developer and go to art school which means I have been chronically missing sleep for about 5 years now, and this is supposed to help my sleep at night because I will be more focused and get more done during the day.
@Ultramus: I'm just curious what level and APM you play at currently, do you find that it helps combat mental fatigue from longer games? Personally I think Modafinil is better then amphetamine because it doesn't raise your heart and wouldn't negatively affect your decision making while under pressure like Amphetamine would. I normally average about 120ish APM, zerg player and I don't ladder very much. I am however a top tier FPS player and I noticed no difference when I was on it, but competitive FPS you reach a skill ceiling pretty quickly where the game limits you. The same applies to starcraft 2 really, it won't make your workers mine faster or make units build quicker, it can help with mechanics but for pros their mechanics aren't the limiting factor.
Good point, even if your ability to process and focus doubled, the game still moves at X speed. I really think the effects of this or any other stimulant are going to be seen more in late game decision-making then in overall speed in players who already possess 100+ APM.
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On February 19 2011 00:05 matthewfoulkes wrote:
People say little too no side effects but this and other stimulants/amphetaminal drugs have been linked to loss of appetite, lack of desire to sleep and ability too sleep, and these 2 combined can stunt growth.
just saying from experience and from research and speaking to my doctor.
I wouldn't really call lack of sleep a side effect for a drug meant to treat narcolepsy *sigh*
It's side effects that I have personally experienced whenever I take it are appetite suppression which is to be expected and xerostomia, two things that are quite minor compared to any other drugs out there.
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Professional gunners use muscle relaxants to perform better, athletes use steroids, gamers use stimulants. I'm on ADD meds (dexedrine previously, adderall currently) and both increase my level of focus in game. But then again, i'm diagnosed with an inability to focus. lol
Whether it's ethical or not, people will do it, people probably already do it, and people will continue to do it if a rule gets made against it.
Edit: something I do that I would even consider unethical:
I got diagnosed with severe ADD when i was a kid, so i have a standing prescription whenever I want it for either of the 2 meds listed above. But later in my life I had to get multiple brain scans and an IQ test as part of a program for placing me into a special needs program. They found out that not only do I have a legal genius IQ (144) but I have an overdeveloped corpus callosum (a little bit bigger than the average girls' even) which they say can lead to compulsive multitasking, which they say is the reason i was diagnosed with what the doctors called ADD.
They gave me tips and plans to overcome my need to do many things at once and honestly, I don't need the pills. But i'm a college student, and they help. Like I said, brain doping happens. I don't use it to specifically increase my performance in a competitive environment, but I won't say that it's not in my system when I'm playing
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Uh.
You're asking if it's okay to take an amphetamine? Are you kidding? No.
The only drugs you need for starcraft are caffeine and marijuana.
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On February 19 2011 00:11 Fateless wrote:
Good point, even if your ability to process and focus doubled, the game still moves at X speed. I really think the effects of this or any other stimulant are going to be seen more in late game decision-making then in overall speed in players who already possess 100+ APM.
To my knowledge it has more an effect on memory than anything else so decision making shouldn't be affected or improved, and those are generally things ingrained in players heads from experience. I think most people have a dichotomous key when they play for almost every situation. I can see it helping people who have really bad nerves and often "blank" under stress or in the case of simply using it to get extra practice time in, but I don't think it will make a pro a better player. For the rest of us it's very likely that if you have errors in your play it will smooth those out. Things you've already mentioned you improved on, injects, not getting supply capped, et cetera.
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On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company.
yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game.
I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible.
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On February 19 2011 00:16 Twistacles wrote:
Uh.
You're asking if it's okay to take an amphetamine? Are you kidding? No.
The only drugs you need for starcraft are caffeine and marijuana.
Modafinil is not an amphetamine, it's an analeptic. It's a CNS stimulant and less psychostimulant. There is anecdotal evidence that it could be considered a cognitive enhancer.
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On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible.
What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test.
This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs.
Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not.
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.....And people are worried about E-sports not becoming established. I'm worried about this shit!
Doping for a performance enhancement is against fair play and the spirit of gaming, It must all be banned!
If not, there will be an endless supply of enhancers cycling around the Pro-gaming circuit helping new champions focus better then ever, and when that drug is banned internationally, their will be another 2 too take its place (usually with unknown side-effects).
Anyone stupid enough too take something thats unknown too medical science is a fool and need there brain scrambled (excluding life death situations)
If E-sports Gods don't stop this before it begins it will DESTROY the Industry before it begins.
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All medications have their long term affects.
In the end though it is their choice I don't see why any governing body should rule over this. Their risk their reward and I doubt it is that much of an edge.
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There is a related thread about this, except a different drug, during BW tourneys. I personally don't really care if people do this before their games, to each his own. Until / if it gets banned from certain tournaments. I've done it as well and noticed my game improve almost instantly. Nothing crazy, just the basics are more firm, more attention to little details, macro, multitasking ect ect.
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Meh, no, it's bad enough kids have to keep up ridiculous practice schedules of 12 hours a day 7 days a week, no need to involve substances with potential side effects for them to be able to compete, making matters even worse.
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On February 19 2011 00:08 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:06 number1gog wrote:
This sounds a lot like the MLG kids that (mis)use Adderal for Halo.
In either case, I can't see it being legal/ethical for competition, but the lines blur when someone has a "legit" prescription for them. You mean like most of the smokers in California that have "legit" need for medicinal marijuana?
That's not even a good comparison. Adderal and other drugs like it actually have a medical purpose and that is why they are perscribed...
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On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible.
Risking being DQed in a tournament or fired from a job is a risk you knowingly take when you smoke an illegal drug like marijuana. I'm not going to get in a debate about whether marijuana is harmful, or semantics of whether it should/shouldn't be illegal, I'm just saying that it's MLG's prerogative to test the participants in their tournaments if they want. After all, to get into MLG you have to be part of a sponsored team. So yes, they WERE just a person who enjoyed playing a game; Then they signed a contract, and got sponsored, and then it became their profession.
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I think people really confused the issue with PEDs. The issue with PEDs is not the advantage, but the bodily risk that they don't want to encourage. Pro-athletes use all kinds of drugs to enhance performance that are totally legal and acceptable. Ibuprofin to reduce inflammation and improve recovery time / healing for a pitcher from one start to the next is "performance enhancing", but it's also good for them.
I don't know enough about Modafinil to say anything about it, but if it really had 100% positive effects and 0 side effects I don't see how it could reasonably be banned any more than using a mouse with higher dpi should be banned.
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I was prescribed this because I had problems sleeping. I didn't really need them but I occasionally have one when I have to stay up late before a test or something like that. Whenever I have played SC under the influence, 2-3 times I can say that it does improve your gameplay. It made me focus like crazy, apm seemed to flow better like it slowed time and it gave me the willpower to mass a ton of games without taking a break (around 20-25, I usually can't play more than 5). When the effect faded away you just get insanely sleepy and go to sleep. I think this drug could really improve one's training. I know it's not right but I have around 20 pills left and I think I will use them when I have a lot of time in my hands to train and want to make the most of it.
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MLGs are open tourneys, you don't have to be on a team >.>
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On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not.
The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished.
So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community.
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Things like modafinil are quite common at my uni since it allows people to stay up forever and study with few side effects. I was seriously considering it at one point but I read something about it being recently shown that in long time (2+ years) users there is a significant decrease in your ability to learn from your mistakes.
Seemed like a bad deal.
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On February 19 2011 00:28 Ultramus wrote:
MLGs are open tourneys, you don't have to be on a team >.>
It's a moot point, because you'd have to be a professional to compete on that level anyway. No casual player would ever win an MLG tournament.
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On February 19 2011 00:22 NoobSkills wrote:
All medications have their long term affects.
In the end though it is their choice I don't see why any governing body should rule over this. Their risk their reward and I doubt it is that much of an edge.
Thats a stupid attitude, why should anyone have a biochemical edge over ME because they choose too RISK there BRAIN. <--------------- omg read that sentence again.
There BRAIN!? Fucking hell this is a game were talking about! A good game but a game none the less. Why risk a prize of what 5,000 euros or whatever for your future mind.
on a side note. You think SC2 is hard too control! Jesus, Starcraft brood war was created for medical science to INVENT enchancers!
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On February 18 2011 22:53 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 22:50 Bleak wrote:
It could be a placebo. I wouldn't believe it until testing takes place in a double blind experiment. Even the military uses it for fighter pilots and even NASA for Astronauts, so I highly doubt that...
hitler even prescribed crystal meth to the pilots. and before any mod wants to ban me... it's TRUE 
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On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community.
I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it.
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On February 19 2011 00:39 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 22:53 mcbrite wrote:On February 18 2011 22:50 Bleak wrote:
It could be a placebo. I wouldn't believe it until testing takes place in a double blind experiment. Even the military uses it for fighter pilots and even NASA for Astronauts, so I highly doubt that... hitler even prescribed crystal meth to the pilots. and before any mod wants to ban me... it's TRUE
MYTH!
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On February 19 2011 00:42 Cpt.beefy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:39 beg wrote:On February 18 2011 22:53 mcbrite wrote:On February 18 2011 22:50 Bleak wrote:
It could be a placebo. I wouldn't believe it until testing takes place in a double blind experiment. Even the military uses it for fighter pilots and even NASA for Astronauts, so I highly doubt that... hitler even prescribed crystal meth to the pilots. and before any mod wants to ban me... it's TRUE MYTH!
nope it's true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methamphetamine ...see "world war II".
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On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it.
From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though.
That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it.
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hmm, I stand corrected. Beg 
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Modafinil increases dopamine activity consistent with attention and awareness. It doesn't interfere with one's ability to sleep and doesn't seem to give one any of the sides effects of the amphetamine-analogs. It's basically a wonder drug.
I say all this to lead up to the following: It allows you to operate at 100% for up to 14 hours without any downsides (except A LOT OF THOUGHTS). Every EMT I knew who could get his hands on it was taking it before every shift, every time for a reason. You don't get mentally exhausted, you don't get blocked, you don't lose that edge we all have when we are really fresh and feeling good.
It's the steroids of intellectual sports (chess, SC, etc).
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Also for anyone curious I do believe that the prodrug of modafinil, adrafinil, is unregulated in the US and can be purchased on the net without an Rx. And at a considerably cheaper price than the $500+ 30 tablets of modafinil cost.
I went the generic route and payed like 75 Euros for 60 of the 200mg variety... That's just over 50 Cent for a dose, so not that high...
Also people talk about prescriptions and so on: If you wanted to cheat that badly it's very easy to order them via the internet without any prescriptions what so ever. Just heard an hour long radio program on it yesterday...
I don't really agree with drug tests in eSports. No need to drag that drama and the cost and inconvenience into eSports as well...
I'm happy to see some very good points raised, like how mechanics isn't the limiting factor for pros where it IS with noobs like me... Didn't even think of that... Maybe a drug like Ritalin would be more applicable to a pro at that level...
Also very interesting to see how many people have heard, or are even using Modafinil here. That confirms all I read about sales and use of Modafinil rising WAY beyond Narcoleptic Disorders into more of a Mainstream, even Lifestyle drug status. Almost in a similar way that Viagra did years ago. Very interesting to me!
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have you ever smoked?
weed helps me get in my zone
but i wouldn't say its the same for everyone
its just something about videogames
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On February 19 2011 00:47 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it. From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though. That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_test
Theres a chart here, with times of detection.
Just too be clear though were NOT talking about Marjiuana usage here,
were discussing ENHANCERs too artificially improve game-playing. I don't see a reason too disqualify a player for using marijuana. At anytime. Like you said it would make you play worse.
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On February 19 2011 01:01 Cpt.beefy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 00:47 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 18 2011 23:30 W2 wrote:
Of course it shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. However, it is quite hard to monitor/enforce at live events. I have seen some post-match interviews with pro-gamers whose pupils are dilated as f***. This does not automatically mean they are on drugs but I would venture a guess that it has happened before in the lifespan of e-sports and will happen again. Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it. From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though. That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_testTheres a chart here, with times of detection. Just too be clear though were NOT talking about Marjiuana usage here, were discussing ENHANCERs too artificially improve game-playing. I don't see a reason too disqualify a player for using marijuana. At anytime. Like you said it would make you play worse.
The chart you linked says that it can detect (most) drugs up to 90 days after usage. If you read in that same article about hair testing, they repeat the sentiment that it's used for a period of 30-90 days. Also, when you go to order one (http://www.testcountry.com/categories.html?cat=123), and you look at the pros/cons section, they specifically state "Does not detect very recent drug use (of up to 1.5 weeks)", which was my point. You also have to wait for results, as you send it to a lab to get the test done. Unless, of course, I am mistaken, this means that you could indeed pop some drugs right before your match and get off scot-free, unless the league takes a habit of doing drug tests 30-90 days afterwards.
On February 19 2011 01:00 malady wrote:
have you ever smoked?
weed helps me get in my zone
but i wouldn't say its the same for everyone
its just something about videogames
I used to hang out at a LAN café in my hometown, where at least 50% of the people who went there did smoke weed. I'd probably say that most of them played worse - there was a couple who actually got really good, but their decision making skills seemed to get weird. They would start doing illogical things. But it's probably different for everyone.
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On February 19 2011 01:12 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 01:01 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:47 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:On February 18 2011 23:31 RoosterSamurai wrote:
[quote]
Well, it isn't impossible to enforce. ML:G could start doing pre-tournament drug screenings (Which I heard that they will be implementing this next season.). I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it. From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though. That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_testTheres a chart here, with times of detection. Just too be clear though were NOT talking about Marjiuana usage here, were discussing ENHANCERs too artificially improve game-playing. I don't see a reason too disqualify a player for using marijuana. At anytime. Like you said it would make you play worse. The chart you linked says that it can detect (most) drugs up to 90 days after usage. If you read in that same article about hair testing, they repeat the sentiment that it's used for a period of 30-90 days. Also, when you go to order one (http://www.testcountry.com/categories.html?cat=123), and you look at the pros/cons section, they specifically state "Does not detect very recent drug use (of up to 1.5 weeks)", which was my point. You also have to wait for results, as you send it to a lab to get the test done. Unless, of course, I am mistaken, this means that you could indeed pop some drugs right before your match and get off scot-free, unless the league takes a habit of doing drug tests 30-90 days afterwards.
Thats all true. THATS why there needs too be (in the pro circuit) random drug test at regular intervals through-out tournaments and league to STOP people from using ENHANCERS (not weed or herion or whatever) but enhancer tests ONLY! what ypu do in our own recreation is up too you. But if you use a drug and know its for your benefit too play better (or even if its in your head), it still needs too be policed.
If what you say is true and i agree then were on the same page when it comes too testing. but it needs too be police if it is a regular thing right now. otherwise it will take over the pro-circuit and any future in e-sports as a competitive industry is doomed.
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Since modafinil is such a relatively new drug its effects are still being studied extensively.
I found the article I was talking about earlier (About long term use leading to decrease in learning ability)
+ Show Spoiler +
Nothing conclusive and the study involved rats and not people but still enough for me to stay away from it for a few more years. I'd prefer my brain intact thank you very much.
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On February 19 2011 01:21 Cpt.beefy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 01:12 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 01:01 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:47 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:
[quote]
I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it. From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though. That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_testTheres a chart here, with times of detection. Just too be clear though were NOT talking about Marjiuana usage here, were discussing ENHANCERs too artificially improve game-playing. I don't see a reason too disqualify a player for using marijuana. At anytime. Like you said it would make you play worse. The chart you linked says that it can detect (most) drugs up to 90 days after usage. If you read in that same article about hair testing, they repeat the sentiment that it's used for a period of 30-90 days. Also, when you go to order one (http://www.testcountry.com/categories.html?cat=123), and you look at the pros/cons section, they specifically state "Does not detect very recent drug use (of up to 1.5 weeks)", which was my point. You also have to wait for results, as you send it to a lab to get the test done. Unless, of course, I am mistaken, this means that you could indeed pop some drugs right before your match and get off scot-free, unless the league takes a habit of doing drug tests 30-90 days afterwards. Thats all true. THATS why there needs too be (in the pro circuit) random drug test at regular intervals through-out tournaments and league to STOP people from using ENHANCERS (not weed or herion or whatever) but enhancer tests ONLY! what ypu do in our own recreation is up too you. But if you use a drug and know its for your benefit too play better (or even if its in your head), it still needs too be policed. If what you say is true and i agree then were on the same page when it comes too testing. but it needs too be police if it is a regular thing right now. otherwise it will take over the pro-circuit and any future in e-sports as a competitive industry is doomed.
Your mix of random bolding, ALLCAPS, underlining and general panic makes for a very hard to read post.
Rarely has a sport has been permanently damaged by substance abuse. Not even cycling, where the Tour de France has been overshadowed by doping scandals for years - but the athletes continue driving, the sponsors continue paying and the customers continue watching.
If there'll ever be a progamer proven to play under the influence of something to enhance his performance (and I'm pretty sure some already are doing so, and even if it's just something to help with the stage fright), there'll be a scandal, player(s) and manager(s) will be fired etc, but Esports as a whole won't suffer. It hasn't after matchfixing and it won't with doping. If anything, it'll prove that gaming has become as mainstream as "regular" sports.
Doping should forbidden like everywhere else, of course, but that doesn't mean it won't happen or that it'll ruin Esports when it's discovered that someone did it.
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On February 19 2011 01:21 Cpt.beefy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 01:12 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 01:01 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:47 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 19 2011 00:00 Fateless wrote:
[quote]
I think that's a little excessive, and an invasion of the player's privacy. I think at this point SC2 tournaments are such a toss-up to begin with that this is totally unnecessary. I think that MLG should be allowed to drug test in a case-by-case basis, for example, if you saw one player start to get an excessive amount of upset tournament wins, but I don't see any reason to DT all of the players. Which would be very expensive and we would probably see a lot of good players turning out false positives or failing for things that don't actually make you better at SC2. People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it. From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though. That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_testTheres a chart here, with times of detection. Just too be clear though were NOT talking about Marjiuana usage here, were discussing ENHANCERs too artificially improve game-playing. I don't see a reason too disqualify a player for using marijuana. At anytime. Like you said it would make you play worse. The chart you linked says that it can detect (most) drugs up to 90 days after usage. If you read in that same article about hair testing, they repeat the sentiment that it's used for a period of 30-90 days. Also, when you go to order one (http://www.testcountry.com/categories.html?cat=123), and you look at the pros/cons section, they specifically state "Does not detect very recent drug use (of up to 1.5 weeks)", which was my point. You also have to wait for results, as you send it to a lab to get the test done. Unless, of course, I am mistaken, this means that you could indeed pop some drugs right before your match and get off scot-free, unless the league takes a habit of doing drug tests 30-90 days afterwards. Thats all true. THATS why there needs too be (in the pro circuit) random drug test at regular intervals through-out tournaments and league to STOP people from using ENHANCERS (not weed or herion or whatever) but enhancer tests ONLY! what ypu do in our own recreation is up too you. But if you use a drug and know its for your benefit too play better (or even if its in your head), it still needs too be policed. If what you say is true and i agree then were on the same page when it comes too testing. but it needs too be police if it is a regular thing right now. otherwise it will take over the pro-circuit and any future in e-sports as a competitive industry is doomed.
Well, yes, people should be doing tests at random intervals. I don't think it'll cause doom and annihilation on the e-sports industry, though, since these kinds of things plague all levels of competitive sports. Weight lifting, running, football, handegg, baseball, etc...; all of them have drug scandals to speak of, and yet, they keep on going, you know? Some do random interval testing (handegg), while some only do it on a case by case basis, where an accusation is made (I believe cycling is run this way, but I could be wrong).
All in all, though, I don't think it's that big of a deal, since drugs that increase your mental capacity typically are found to have really bad long term effects, like physical/emotional reliance on the drug, amongst other things. Those kinds of things do shorten prospective careers, and when you're a pro gamer, I think that the only types of jobs you're going to get after that career are probably white collar jobs, so most pros will not want to do that for an extra boost that'll last them a couple of years.
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On February 19 2011 01:43 Shockk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 01:21 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 01:12 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 01:01 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:47 goiflin wrote:On February 19 2011 00:41 Cpt.beefy wrote:On February 19 2011 00:29 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:19 Stropheum wrote:On February 19 2011 00:16 Fateless wrote:On February 19 2011 00:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:
[quote]
People that play in MLG are professional gamers, and as with most any profession, a drug test is to be expected. I don't really agree that it would be an invasion of a player's privacy. They chose this profession, and shouldn't really be treated any differently than an employee at any other company. yeah, but when they chose this profession there were no drug tests involved, they were just playing a game they enjoyed for fun. I don't like the idea that a player who might enjoy smoking marijuana in his free time would be DQ'd by a drug test when drugs don't even help you in this game. I know we all love to compare E-sports to Physical sports, but they are quite different. In an MMA fight or boxing match, if one of the competitors were taking something like Methamphetamine, there is a real risk of one of the competitors dying, and when the physical safety of the competitors is concerned, it makes sense to test for everything possible. What about bikers and runners doing blood doping/ taking epo to help stabilize their heart rate so they can keep going for ridiculous lengths? This doesn't cause risk to anybody but the person themselves, yet in competitive races, they test. This is what we're talking about here, keeping things fair, and having the competition being about who worked the hardest to get where they're at, not who took the best drugs. Also I love the fact that any sort of tournament would do a drug test on its competitors. If one person gets away with it, they'll tell their friends and they'll tell their own friends and more and more people will start putting themselves in harms way because the tournaments don't screen for people like that. I 100% agree with drug screening at any sort of tournament, "real" sport or not. The problem is that in this case, the Tests are not effective. You might not know it, but it is very very easy to cheat a drug test. This means that the cheaters will have no problem continuing to cheat, and honest players who might use harmless drugs to relax will be punished. So for example, take a seriously powerful stimulant like Methamphetamine, which is undetectable in urine after 72 hours. Marijuana, which is harmless and will if anything make it more difficult to play SC2, is detectable for up to 2 weeks. So I just dose up right before I begin playing and nobody will know any different. But If I smoked a joint with my friends last weekend I will be DQ'd and shamed by the community. I disagree, Hair follicle tests are very good at detecting drugs. hours after you dosed it. From what I've read, not only can you fool hair tests through the use of cosmetics, but you can also only accurately detect drug usage in the span of 30-90 days, depending on how fast/slow the persons hair grows. I could be mistaken, though. That would also still produce issues for people who use marjiuana recreationally, since you'd detect it in their hair up to three months after they've used it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_testTheres a chart here, with times of detection. Just too be clear though were NOT talking about Marjiuana usage here, were discussing ENHANCERs too artificially improve game-playing. I don't see a reason too disqualify a player for using marijuana. At anytime. Like you said it would make you play worse. The chart you linked says that it can detect (most) drugs up to 90 days after usage. If you read in that same article about hair testing, they repeat the sentiment that it's used for a period of 30-90 days. Also, when you go to order one (http://www.testcountry.com/categories.html?cat=123), and you look at the pros/cons section, they specifically state "Does not detect very recent drug use (of up to 1.5 weeks)", which was my point. You also have to wait for results, as you send it to a lab to get the test done. Unless, of course, I am mistaken, this means that you could indeed pop some drugs right before your match and get off scot-free, unless the league takes a habit of doing drug tests 30-90 days afterwards. Thats all true. THATS why there needs too be (in the pro circuit) random drug test at regular intervals through-out tournaments and league to STOP people from using ENHANCERS (not weed or herion or whatever) but enhancer tests ONLY! what ypu do in our own recreation is up too you. But if you use a drug and know its for your benefit too play better (or even if its in your head), it still needs too be policed. If what you say is true and i agree then were on the same page when it comes too testing. but it needs too be police if it is a regular thing right now. otherwise it will take over the pro-circuit and any future in e-sports as a competitive industry is doomed. Your mix of random bolding, ALLCAPS, underlining and general panic makes for a very hard to read post. Rarely has a sport has been permanently damaged by substance abuse. Not even cycling, where the Tour de France has been overshadowed by doping scandals for years - but the athletes continue driving, the sponsors continue paying and the customers continue watching. If there'll ever be a progamer proven to play under the influence of something to enhance his performance (and I'm pretty sure some already are doing so, and even if it's just something to help with the stage fright), there'll be a scandal, player(s) and manager(s) will be fired etc, but Esports as a whole won't suffer. It hasn't after matchfixing and it won't with doping. If anything, it'll prove that gaming has become as mainstream as "regular" sports. Doping should forbidden like everywhere else, of course, but that doesn't mean it won't happen or that it'll ruin Esports when it's discovered that someone did it.
Ok dude, so you agree.
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I was prescribed Adderall for ADD (which falls under OP's "ritalin and co"). I haven't noticed a significant improvement in my gaming--though I've been gaming less, because gaming was a distraction from my studies. Then again, people with ADD/ADHD tend to hyperfocus on some specific activities, so perhaps my gaming was already at its natural level. I've noticed a significant improvement in quality of life, and I believe that people with apparent, diagnosable disorders are at a disadvantage. Doping regulation for e-sports would require tight control over prescription and availability, which means it's fubar just like every other sport.
Adderall is way too easy to get prescribed (it's basically a personality test), and a significant number of law and med school students take them to gain an advantage. The suppressed appetite really hurts me (I'm 6'0 and 130 pounds), and the sleep loss is noticeable. The extended release capsules last about 5 hours, so if e-sports were to become srs bsns, it wouldn't be hard to detect before a match.
In theory, brain plasticity allows those on focus drugs to widen the neural pathways involved in the affected activities over the course of several years, eventually eliminating the need for medication. This is similar to Zen meditation experts producing significantly increased brain activity when focusing (i.e. medication isn't necessary to treat ADD, but it really helps).
In my opinion, it's just gonna be like every other sport: dopers, hackers, cheaters galore at low levels, league/tourney hosts required to pay for legitimacy at pro levels.
+ Show Spoiler +p.s. I also smoke weed occasionally, and in my experience it has the absolute opposite effects of adderall (improved appetite, extreme relaxation (makes sleep easier), wayward attention, and impaired short-term memory. I am godawful at video games when I'm high, but maybe it's just exacerbating my ADD. I never smoke weed within 5 hours of taking Adderall, I feel that they would just counteract each other while causing my system unnecessary stress.
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I think this "OMFG!?! Competition needs to be FAIR!!!" is massively oversimplifying the situation...
In my opinion that's a Micky Mouse pipe dream that's not attainable in real life. There will always be more and more options to cheat (let's keep the argument on progaming) with medications. There will always be people using those, whether there is a risk to get caught or not...
Sometimes people get caught, sometimes they don't... So your idol may be using them and you wouldn't even know it.
Wouldn't a more pragmatic approach be to just not drug test at all? I know that's far from ideal and in some cases even dangerous, but testing is really more of an alibi solution. "Look we're doing something against unfair advantages!" But the people that don't get caught enjoy the advantage without repercussions. So the competition couldn't EVER be clean either way...
Isn't NOT testing just cheaper and easier?
I do realize there is strong arguments for both options and some options in between, so the debate will probably rage on for decades to come...
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On February 19 2011 02:51 mcbrite wrote:
I think this "OMFG!?! Competition needs to be FAIR!!!" is massively oversimplifying the situation...
In my opinion that's a Micky Mouse pipe dream that's not attainable in real life. There will always be more and more options to cheat (let's keep the argument on progaming) with medications. There will always be people using those, whether there is a risk to get caught or not...
Sometimes people get caught, sometimes they don't... So your idol may be using them and you wouldn't even know it.
Wouldn't a more pragmatic approach be to just not drug test at all? I know that's far from ideal and in some cases even dangerous, but testing is really more of an alibi solution. "Look we're doing something against unfair advantages!" But the people that don't get caught enjoy the advantage without repercussions. So the competition couldn't EVER be clean either way...
Isn't NOT testing just cheaper and easier?
I do realize there is strong arguments for both options and some options in between, so the debate will probably rage on for decades to come...
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
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On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice...
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I agree with mcbrite, also because where do you draw the line between someone who is prescribed it for a medical condition (such as ADHD or narcolepsy), and someone who is "prescribed it" for a "medical condition".
Also where do you draw the line between modafinil/adderall and caffeine? Just because ones legal and marketable in sweet skinny blue cans of red bull doesn't really change the fact that you could consider both "performance enhancing".
It's still your brain. It's not like it gives you map hacks.
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I have narcolepsy and as a result I was prescribed Modafonil. My quality of life has increased GREATLY since I started taking it because I am able to get up in the morning and function like a regular person instead of feeling lazy and useless, spending 15+ hours in bed.
However, I have really annoying twitches that I can't control now, and my mind sometimes races too much when i try to go to sleep and I have a shorter temper than usual.
People always talk about no-side effects for the drug but the side effects is WHY u are taking the drug. It's not like the chemical in the drug is explicitly supposed to make you better at starcraft (or for my case cure narcolepsy). What it's doing to your body is totally up to the way your body takes it and what other unknown effects it has on your system.
So really it's up to the user to choose if they want to use it for a certain purpose (smoke weed for relaxation, do coke etc) because ultimately the drug will affect us differently and the consequences of it vary with usage.
To me modafinil is like a crutch that helps me walk around since I normally can't walk around that well (metaphorically) but once I strengthen my legs hopefully I won't need it anymore.
Taking this drug as an enhancement to something is the same as any doping/sterioids or even just taking coffee to make you perform better. But as I said earlier the enhancement is usually not JUST the enhancement but whatever else your body reacts to the chemical in addition.
In sc2 the player with more knowledge and practice will usually be the winner, modafinil may help you play clearer (or so it may seem) but you can reach the same level with practice really. It's not like you can move your hands faster because the drug gives you more energy, no. You have the energy but certain inhibitions are gone, which once again can be aided with practice.
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On February 19 2011 03:01 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice...
Except when they are doping and gaining an unfair advantage over other players who are dedicating a lot of time and money into winning a tournament. Sorry, but your logic is flawed.
If they did it while they laddered, I would say "who cares?" But in tournament play, it is definitely a problem.
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The ethics debate is absolutely retarded on this point. It's like comparing IQs and saying it's unfair how some people are born stupid and some intelligent when both have the desire to be a progamer.
Anyone that wants to abuse antidepressants for the benefit of a videogame probbaly has a sad life and needs those drugs regardless. The top tier pros? Non-issue as this isn't the first thread about such things.
And while OPs testament may be the truth for him, he is a self admitted newb who can't play the game. For gosus who know how to play, maybe this could help, maybe not. But for a videogame that is 95% based off of online competition the reality is it's impossible to drug screen and test (not only expensive and stupid) for non-lan event tournament. And when the times comes IF a player at a non-lan tournament WAS drug tested for this shit - they would have alegal prescription. Any corporate organization that tries to infringe on a citizens right to take prescribed medication is going to be in for a world of hurt and thus their PR people would let the gamers pop their pills rendering any discussion moot.
So whats the point of this again? Is it ehtical for people to take thier prescribed medication? Yes. Is it unethical to buy riddalin off your classmate to pop before SC games? Um.. maybe.. depends on the results? Is it unethical for all those stoners that toke up before games? No cause weed makes youj worse right? It's just the human condition, ethics don't come into play unless you are useing some 3rd party software (hacks) that give you direct advantage over the in game scenarios.
For brain-effecting criteria: coffee, alcohol, sugar and general hunger all mess with the brains cognotive abilities. Analyizing substance by substance under a microscrop would be a better university thesis than "wow starcraft and progaming = so cool" but its worth two squirts of piss in the world of policy and actually -doing shit-
silly silly thread
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Don't a SHITLOAD of poker pros constantly admit to taking things like modafinil and adderall? I could be wrong I don't follow poker that much but I could have sworn I remember reading about that.
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On February 19 2011 03:12 MiniRoman wrote:
The ethics debate is absolutely retarded on this point. It's like comparing IQs and saying it's unfair how some people are born stupid and some intelligent when both have the desire to be a progamer.
Anyone that wants to abuse antidepressants for the benefit of a videogame probbaly has a sad life and needs those drugs regardless. The top tier pros? Non-issue as this isn't the first thread about such things.
And while OPs testament may be the truth for him, he is a self admitted newb who can't play the game. For gosus who know how to play, maybe this could help, maybe not. But for a videogame that is 95% based off of online competition the reality is it's impossible to drug screen and test (not only expensive and stupid) for non-lan event tournament. And when the times comes IF a player at a non-lan tournament WAS drug tested for this shit - they would have alegal prescription. Any corporate organization that tries to infringe on a citizens right to take prescribed medication is going to be in for a world of hurt and thus their PR people would let the gamers pop their pills rendering any discussion moot.
So whats the point of this again? Is it ehtical for people to take thier prescribed medication? Yes. Is it unethical to buy riddalin off your classmate to pop before SC games? Um.. maybe.. depends on the results? Is it unethical for all those stoners that toke up before games? No cause weed makes youj worse right? It's just the human condition, ethics don't come into play unless you are useing some 3rd party software (hacks) that give you direct advantage over the in game scenarios.
For brain-effecting criteria: coffee, alcohol, sugar and general hunger all mess with the brains cognotive abilities. Analyizing substance by substance under a microscrop would be a better university thesis than "wow starcraft and progaming = so cool" but its worth two squirts of piss in the world of policy and actually -doing shit-
silly silly thread
This is a pretty bad post that doesn't really deserve a response, but I'll give one anyway.
Let me show you the flaw with your convoluted argument: Matches aren't always newb vs newb or newb vs pro. Sometimes, very rarely, a pro vs pro match occurs. Typically pros are relatively evenly matched, but when one of them is abusing Adderal, or modafinil, or ritalin, then it really becomes a problem. In this instance, ethics DOES become a legitimate issue. These pros make a living playing starcraft (Or other games where focus is beneficial). Just because it's a game doesn't make this any less of an issue than steroids for pro ball-players....
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On February 19 2011 03:01 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice...
What if their is no physical damage? And they win the GSL grand prize cause they were just a little speedy. Although I really don't think this is a big deal, it's not even close to as much of an advantage as something like blood doping.
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I remember reading a post by someone that went on Addreall before a major BW tournament and said it ended up making him play worse. He spent too much time focusing on micro while it hurt his macro/multitasking. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
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On February 19 2011 03:17 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:01 mcbrite wrote:On February 19 2011 02:59 Kezzer wrote:
That's like saying who needs police, some criminals get away without repercussions so we'll never truly be safe.
Not at ALL... Couldn't be more different. Criminals kill and steal from other people... The physical damage from doping is suffered by the person that made the choice... What if their is no physical damage? And they win the GSL grand prize cause they were just a little speedy. Although I really don't think this is a big deal, it's not even close to as much of an advantage as something like blood doping.
Then I wouldn't respect the player OR the tournament in that case. Rooster said it better then me.
but
If it was Revealed tomorrow that everyone in the GSL had too take modafinil too make sure that no-one WASN'T ,then I'd just stop watching, and never pay GSL for anything again.
ITS pure and simple SKILL that needs too be applauded. Not focus boosters and artificial enhancers. (fuck the red bull argument also its not the same thing)
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On February 19 2011 03:20 DoubleZee wrote:
I remember reading a post by someone that went on Addreall before a major BW tournament and said it ended up making him play worse. He spent too much time focusing on micro while it hurt his macro/multitasking. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
Definitely sounds right, I doubt adderall would help in SC unless you also practiced with adderall too. In which case you are probably just going to destroy your body and gain no mental advantage whatsoever.
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If you're suffering from narcolepsy you might be interested in changing from a normal sleep schedule to polyphasic sleep, just throwing out the possibility.
Back on topic, as with 'normal' sports drug use in e-sports should be banned by the leagues, I only know back in the days some Counter-strike players used to take it.
As usual, the regulations can be easily enforced at LAN plan, where the high-level is at, but what's with the regular online play? There's no way to test there, and if there's the possibility that your opponent can use enhancer and get away with it easily, that sucks.
Well, but I guess its mostly important for high-level play, I don't think anyone cares about the online stuff enough to use enhancers?
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On February 19 2011 03:16 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 03:12 MiniRoman wrote:
The ethics debate is absolutely retarded on this point. It's like comparing IQs and saying it's unfair how some people are born stupid and some intelligent when both have the desire to be a progamer.
Anyone that wants to abuse antidepressants for the benefit of a videogame probbaly has a sad life and needs those drugs regardless. The top tier pros? Non-issue as this isn't the first thread about such things.
And while OPs testament may be the truth for him, he is a self admitted newb who can't play the game. For gosus who know how to play, maybe this could help, maybe not. But for a videogame that is 95% based off of online competition the reality is it's impossible to drug screen and test (not only expensive and stupid) for non-lan event tournament. And when the times comes IF a player at a non-lan tournament WAS drug tested for this shit - they would have alegal prescription. Any corporate organization that tries to infringe on a citizens right to take prescribed medication is going to be in for a world of hurt and thus their PR people would let the gamers pop their pills rendering any discussion moot.
So whats the point of this again? Is it ehtical for people to take thier prescribed medication? Yes. Is it unethical to buy riddalin off your classmate to pop before SC games? Um.. maybe.. depends on the results? Is it unethical for all those stoners that toke up before games? No cause weed makes youj worse right? It's just the human condition, ethics don't come into play unless you are useing some 3rd party software (hacks) that give you direct advantage over the in game scenarios.
For brain-effecting criteria: coffee, alcohol, sugar and general hunger all mess with the brains cognotive abilities. Analyizing substance by substance under a microscrop would be a better university thesis than "wow starcraft and progaming = so cool" but its worth two squirts of piss in the world of policy and actually -doing shit-
silly silly thread This is a pretty bad post that doesn't really deserve a response, but I'll give one anyway. Let me show you the flaw with your convoluted argument: Matches aren't always newb vs newb or newb vs pro. Sometimes, very rarely, a pro vs pro match occurs. Typically pros are relatively evenly matched, but when one of them is abusing Adderal, or modafinil, or ritalin, then it really becomes a problem. In this instance, ethics DOES become a legitimate issue. These pros make a living playing starcraft (Or other games where focus is beneficial). Just because it's a game doesn't make this any less of an issue than steroids for pro ball-players....
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ya, nice reply, lots of effort and orginal thought involved. I'm very happy you quoted me and gave me the grace of your attention.
Now that the sarcasm is over here is why you are stupid
Yes I understand all of that. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that the likelyhood of a person abusing perscription drugs like the ones talked about in this thread without their own perscription is like .1%. Phara drugs cost a lot mor ethan street drugs, are harder to come by, and the dealers that do sell them don't have a permanant supply like one that sells weed or coke.
Drug testing over the internet is impossible. Even the biggest of idiots can see that. Drug testing in real life, example: MLG, is a possibility but once again - if you actually know how substance abuse works and the illegal foundation to support it - you know that anyone tested positive for this shit will have a legal prescription. Any organization in authority that prevents a person from taking their prescribed medication will be commiting suicide through lawsuits and bad publicity.
People won't abuse this shit for professional advancement. To those saying "eventually" the proscence for Broodwar has existed for over a decade. These concerns, this whole thread, is nothing new. It's already been talked about and hey -- match trading was the big scandle of progaming. Not people taking antidepressants.
the final point: anyone actually useing these at professional level will have a valid prescription (and hence reason) for useing it. Doctors don't give a fuck about your want to "have really really good multitask in starcraft" when it comes to prescribing shit like this. Ofcourse I am Canadian so my past experience is based off of canadian doctors but still - you're retarded if you think this is a serious issue.
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I can tell you one thing, I find it sad enough that starcraft pro's have to make such huge sacrifices as it is in the regard that they really are forced into training some 10-14 hours a day, every day, if they want to be able to stay on top of their game. Probably missing out on a lot of physical activities and sleep as well.
However, such is the nature of the game when starcraft practice as opposed to practice in conventional sports isn't physically demanding and as such permits the players to spend a ridiculous amount of time playing.
So if I, on top of that, found out that these kids felt they had to be taking psychoactive substances to be able to keep up, that would be the point where I lose interest in competitive starcraft. It's not worth sacrificing mental/physical health even though I know it's their own decision, I couldn't support an e-sport like that.
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As a biologist, I have to say that this is not a long-term solution for anyone. First of all, the drug is is aimed to prevent feelings of sleepiness and increase alertness, but presumably one might not need this if they are already hyper-focused due to high concentrations of epinephrine in tournaments.
Even if it were true that it increased alertness in people who are already hyper-alert, this is not a long-term fix. You can't practice without the drug efficiently if you're using it in competition, and you can't use it all the time or you will come to rely upon it. If your illegal source for it dries up, then you might see your results plummet. On top of that, the effects might dampen over time and then where are you? Finally, what if someone finds out you're abusing this? Too many long-term risks in my opinion.
Finally, to the OP, it seems to me that some random dude who's like gold league who usually ladders in a semi-interested fashion would definitely benefit. After all, maybe you sometimes ladder when you're a bit sleepy...However, a pro who has 1000's of dollars on the line won't really need it and shouldn't use it for a number of reasons.
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If any of you have known people who abused amphetamine to stay awake while drinking, you know that it makes you lose appetite and you can't go to sleep from it, some people have told me that while under the influence of amphetamine they could think faster, the phrase one guy used was "it just clicked and I did everything right".
So I guess this drug Modafinil is like that only with minor side effects (ones that don't make you go insane hopefully).
When I read the thread I was considering trying it just to see how it could affect my game, but when I read it leads to loss of appetite I knew exactly what it was, so for me using drugs like Modafinil to play better is bad.
If it didn't have such negative effects on health I would probably use it and would support the use of it.
But seeing as how I have a bad appetite I can't afford to use something like that, I'll just die of starvation.
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Yes I understand all of that. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that the likelyhood of a person abusing perscription drugs like the ones talked about in this thread without their own perscription is like .1%. Phara drugs cost a lot mor ethan street drugs, are harder to come by, and the dealers that do sell them don't have a permanant supply like one that sells weed or coke.
You never once mentioned in your original post the reality that the issue is pro vs pro matches where the drugs are being used.
Drug testing over the internet is impossible. Even the biggest of idiots can see that. Drug testing in real life, example: MLG, is a possibility but once again - if you actually know how substance abuse works and the illegal foundation to support it - you know that anyone tested positive for this shit will have a legal prescription. Any organization in authority that prevents a person from taking their prescribed medication will be commiting suicide through lawsuits and bad publicity. Obviously, when anyone enters an internet tournament (none of which compare to the scale of LANs, MLG, or GSL) they understand that there is a good possibility that their opponent will be on something. Whether they are drunk, smoked weed, or are on a focus drug. Also, regardless of whether they have a perscription or not, if they have taken a focus drug that day, they should be disqualified. Focus drugs are generally not necessary for normal bodily function, unless a person is insane, or is a toddler with severe ADHD. There are lots of possibilities with drug screening, and it's up to MLG to make their own policy. I sincerely doubt anyone will commit suicide in the 6-7 hours they are at a tournament.
People won't abuse this shit for professional advancement. To those saying "eventually" the proscence for Broodwar has existed for over a decade. These concerns, this whole thread, is nothing new. It's already been talked about and hey -- match trading was the big scandle of progaming. Not people taking antidepressants. Yes they will, and do. It is known that Korean progamers sometimes take ritalin to focus on starcraft, and it is also known to some that famous SC2 gamers, such as PainUser abuse adderol for their profession.
the final point: anyone actually useing these at professional level will have a valid prescription (and hence reason) for useing it. Doctors don't give a fuck about your want to "have really really good multitask in starcraft" when it comes to prescribing shit like this. Ofcourse I am Canadian so my past experience is based off of canadian doctors but still - you're retarded if you think this is a serious issue. You're insinuating that it is impossible to get these drugs without a prescription, or that it is impossible to get a prescription without having an actual, legitimate, need for these drugs, which it is most certainly nod impossible.
In California, I could go to a doctor and say "My back hurts so bad that I can't live with the pain. I need a prescription for marijuana" And I will walk out 5 minutes later with a prescription. If they want it bad enough, they will get it.
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Yes, you say you could do that. But you're just some dumbass kid who hasn't tried, so why would I take your word for it?
Going to work now but i'll decimate you later with an edit. lol.
User was temp banned for this post.
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(fuck the red bull argument also its not the same thing)
Please explain to me how it is in fact, not the exact same thing.
From wikipedia:
Caffeine: white crystalline xanthine alkaloid that is a psychoactive stimulant. In humans, caffeine acts as a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant, temporarily warding off drowsiness and restoring alertness.
Adderall: ...is a brand-name psychostimulant medication. Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue.
Just because caffeine isn't quite as good at what it does really makes no difference. Let me guess, you're also one of those people who looks down at drug users and then blows 100 dollars getting wasted at a shitty sports bar every weekend?
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Its a drug and it dont kill ur body but it KILLS Ur MIND over Time.U will be an ZOMBIE like all humans who take this shit about a time.This makes u feel like a ZOMBIE man, it steals ur EMOTIONS and thats not goood.
Maybe u are 4-8 years better in sc2 with the pills, but after some years ur brain getting damaged and ur emotions 2.U dont act like a Normal human if u take theese pills, they change ur personality after some time.
RL>SC2 so dont kill ur RL 2 be good in a computer game.
Sleep enough Eat healthy be friendly 2 the other people and play SC2 with ur HEART ur MIND and ur SOUL and u never will need anything 2 get better.U just get better from time 2 time and then u done all by urself without manipulating ur mind. DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U!!!!DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U!!!!DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U! ^^sry 4 spam and bad english!
User was warned for this post
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On February 19 2011 05:40 LisKelicious wrote:
Its a drug and it dont kill ur body but it KILLS Ur MIND over Time.U will be an ZOMBIE like all humans who take this shit about a time.This makes u feel like a ZOMBIE man, it steals ur EMOTIONS and thats not goood.
Maybe u are 4-8 years better in sc2 with the pills, but after some years ur brain getting damaged and ur emotions 2.U dont act like a Normal human if u take theese pills, they change ur personality after some time.
RL>SC2 so dont kill ur RL 2 be good in a computer game.
Sleep enough Eat healthy be friendly 2 the other people and play SC2 with ur HEART ur MIND and ur SOUL and u never will need anything 2 get better.U just get better from time 2 time and then u done all by urself without manipulating ur mind. DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U!!!!DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U!!!!DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U! ^^sry 4 spam and bad english!
Umm.... Just so you know, this kind of "u" and "2" is not the kind of post team liquid likes... may want to try and put a little more effort in your posts if you want to avoid a ban
On topic: Sadly, the argument of whether or not a prescription is obtainable is pretty much a moot point. There are always doctors/PAs/NPs who will prescribe something to someone persistent enough. I'm in PA school right now and something that almost every single one of our pharmacist guest lecturers has belabored the point of "don't become a drug pusher." Check the news at any point and you'll see stories about health care providers that lose their licenses because they enabled pain medication abusers and other such drug seeking behavior.
As has been brought up several times in this thread; where there's a will, there's a way. If someone is determined enough to obtain the desired prescription, they can change providers multiple times until they find one who will acquiesce to their requests.
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On February 19 2011 08:11 Stereotype wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:40 LisKelicious wrote:
Its a drug and it dont kill ur body but it KILLS Ur MIND over Time.U will be an ZOMBIE like all humans who take this shit about a time.This makes u feel like a ZOMBIE man, it steals ur EMOTIONS and thats not goood.
Maybe u are 4-8 years better in sc2 with the pills, but after some years ur brain getting damaged and ur emotions 2.U dont act like a Normal human if u take theese pills, they change ur personality after some time.
RL>SC2 so dont kill ur RL 2 be good in a computer game.
Sleep enough Eat healthy be friendly 2 the other people and play SC2 with ur HEART ur MIND and ur SOUL and u never will need anything 2 get better.U just get better from time 2 time and then u done all by urself without manipulating ur mind. DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U!!!!DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U!!!!DONT TAKE DRUGS!!!!!!! DRUGS KILL U! ^^sry 4 spam and bad english! Umm.... Just so you know, this kind of "u" and "2" is not the kind of post team liquid likes... may want to try and put a little more effort in your posts if you want to avoid a ban On topic: Sadly, the argument of whether or not a prescription is obtainable is pretty much a moot point. There are always doctors/PAs/NPs who will prescribe something to someone persistent enough. I'm in PA school right now and something that almost every single one of our pharmacist guest lecturers has belabored the point of "don't become a drug pusher." Check the news at any point and you'll see stories about health care providers that lose their licenses because they enabled pain medication abusers and other such drug seeking behavior. As has been brought up several times in this thread; where there's a will, there's a way. If someone is determined enough to obtain the desired prescription, they can change providers multiple times until they find one who will acquiesce to their requests.
The point is not weather or not you can find the drug its weather its justified using it for competition in a Starcraft 2 capacity. get on topic.
I think everyone agrees that its not good for starcraft 2 OR any e-sports too have enhancers be the deciding factor in a win for respect and REAL money
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On February 19 2011 03:47 Ksyper wrote:
If any of you have known people who abused amphetamine to stay awake while drinking, you know that it makes you lose appetite and you can't go to sleep from it, some people have told me that while under the influence of amphetamine they could think faster, the phrase one guy used was "it just clicked and I did everything right".
So I guess this drug Modafinil is like that only with minor side effects (ones that don't make you go insane hopefully).
When I read the thread I was considering trying it just to see how it could affect my game, but when I read it leads to loss of appetite I knew exactly what it was, so for me using drugs like Modafinil to play better is bad.
If it didn't have such negative effects on health I would probably use it and would support the use of it.
But seeing as how I have a bad appetite I can't afford to use something like that, I'll just die of starvation.
I can't talk for the broad amount of users that have used Modafinil, but I, personally, haven't experienced ANY loss of appetite at all... I'm eating exactly the same amount I did before...
Don't think of it as an amphetamine, cause it's not... It's also very easy to fall asleep if you want to. It's more like it takes the NEED to go to bed RIGHT NOW away from you... Like you don't yawn that often, if at all... And you don't get that feeling of: I need to go to bed now or I'll literally fall over and sleep on the floor.
But like I said: If it's your bed-time and you WANT to go to sleep, regardless of if you need to or not, you will be able to sleep just as well as if you weren't on Modafinil.
I even feel a bit more awake and rested once I wake up in the morning... Kinda strange to explain.
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I've played some starcraft 2 on adderall, and while I was a bit more focused I don't think I was significantly faster, and I doubt my play improved all that much just due to the extra focus(I focus alot anyway when I'm gaming). Also, if you regularly take of drugs like adderall(not so sure about Modafinil), they tend to lose their more extreme effects after awhile, unless you constantly progessively up the dose. Slight advantage? Maybe. Anything like an advantage steroids is to baseball players? Nah I don't think so
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Fuck the people who would even consider using ability enhancing drugs like these. Just like any other sport, these things take away the actual playing of the game and winners will be determined through the lab, not through skill. I would rather die than cheat in such a way, and I would not doubt to ban or FUCKING HURT anyone that does things like this.
You might think my opinions are extreme, but I have experience with people cheating
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Guys u get crazy from modafinil over time believe me ....
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Speaking from personal experience, I'm prescribed amphetamines for ADD and I notice a definite improvement in my SC2 play when I'm on them as opposed to off.
I think that this effect would give me an advantage in a tournament, and because of that if I was in a tournament I would certainly take it. Because I would be taking it, I would have no problem with other people taking it as well.
Besides, what do we even consider a performance enhancing drug in the context of gaming? I know quite a few souls who swear that marijuana increases their performance...should smoking pot disqualify you from an esports event?
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Drugs like Ritalin are a huge problem in esports, just go to MLG and see how many of the players have some, probably 25-50% depending on the tournament.
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On February 19 2011 05:13 DamnCats wrote:Please explain to me how it is in fact, not the exact same thing. From wikipedia: Caffeine: white crystalline xanthine alkaloid that is a psychoactive stimulant. In humans, caffeine acts as a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant, temporarily warding off drowsiness and restoring alertness. Adderall: ...is a brand-name psychostimulant medication. Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue. Just because caffeine isn't quite as good at what it does really makes no difference. Let me guess, you're also one of those people who looks down at drug users and then blows 100 dollars getting wasted at a shitty sports bar every weekend?
Nice wikipedia quote, it makes you sound smart. But you don't have to get technical to understand.. caffeine is a socially acceptable drug while adderall is less acceptable, and heroin totally frowned upon. That's just the way the world is. It's like how cigarettes are more harmful than smoking weed but people look down on potsmokers, while cigarette smokers are considered more 'normal'.
Why is red bull allowed but not performance enhancing drugs?
Because if it really helps, then everyone would do it to get an edge. Drinking the occasional energy drink isn't as bad as popping adderall every match. Also what would happen to the image of the sport? Everyone has to pop a pill in order to compete.
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I personally think nothing like this should be allowed, and the reason is... You have to make a fine line between what is and what isn't.
Let me just give an example of 3 things. This isn't true but for the sake of an example. There are 3 main things that allow you to play StarCraft better. Those things are: Coffee, those medications you speak of (let's assume they have minor side effects over prolonged use like increased chance of kidney failure), and Cocaine which is illegal and very dangerous.
Now you are the association, what do you allow? If you allow Coffee, why wouldn't you be allowed to use medications? Well then all players to stay competitive have to use medications? And now somebody wants an edge so they'll use cocaine. It's a very complex thing to work out and I think it's in the best interest of people and players for those things to be banned.
Luckily I haven't heard of such cases in Starcraft BW yet about such things so therefore I think it isn't common and hasn't been introduced into esports yet. If such things are happening however, governments should take action.
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On February 19 2011 20:24 LisKelicious wrote:
Guys u get crazy from modafinil over time believe me ....
Any evidence, even anecdotal at that? Or are you just making statements for the sake of them? Got a story?
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On February 20 2011 05:35 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2011 05:13 DamnCats wrote:(fuck the red bull argument also its not the same thing) Please explain to me how it is in fact, not the exact same thing. From wikipedia: Caffeine: white crystalline xanthine alkaloid that is a psychoactive stimulant. In humans, caffeine acts as a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant, temporarily warding off drowsiness and restoring alertness. Adderall: ...is a brand-name psychostimulant medication. Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue. Just because caffeine isn't quite as good at what it does really makes no difference. Let me guess, you're also one of those people who looks down at drug users and then blows 100 dollars getting wasted at a shitty sports bar every weekend? Nice wikipedia quote, it makes you sound smart. But you don't have to get technical to understand.. caffeine is a socially acceptable drug while adderall is less acceptable, and heroin totally frowned upon. That's just the way the world is. It's like how cigarettes are more harmful than smoking weed but people look down on potsmokers, while cigarette smokers are considered more 'normal'. Why is red bull allowed but not performance enhancing drugs? Because if it really helps, then everyone would do it to get an edge. Drinking the occasional energy drink isn't as bad as popping adderall every match. Also what would happen to the image of the sport? Everyone has to pop a pill in order to compete.
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either...
And who gives a flying fuck what's socially acceptable or not? Didn't you just mention weed? I feel like your mixing up all kind of shit...
Red Bull has no more caffine than a cup of coffee, over here in germany it actually has LESS....
How do you know that the pure sugar in red bull is less harmful than adderal? It's those kind of unsubstantiated, subjective, moronic statements that make me insanely mad.
In germany we have a saying: If you don't know what you're talking about, why not shut the fuck up for once? (Not trying to insult you specifically, just giving some food for thought...)
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On February 19 2011 05:13 DamnCats wrote:Please explain to me how it is in fact, not the exact same thing. From wikipedia: Caffeine: white crystalline xanthine alkaloid that is a psychoactive stimulant. In humans, caffeine acts as a central nervous system (CNS) stimulant, temporarily warding off drowsiness and restoring alertness. Adderall: ...is a brand-name psychostimulant medication. Adderall is widely reported to increase alertness, increase libido, increase concentration and overall cognitive performance, and, in general, improve mood, while decreasing user fatigue. Just because caffeine isn't quite as good at what it does really makes no difference. Let me guess, you're also one of those people who looks down at drug users and then blows 100 dollars getting wasted at a shitty sports bar every weekend?
Hmm.. your research is going to have to go a little deeper if you want to make a point about caffeine being the same as adderall. They have completely different physiological mechanisms, amphetamines are highly dangerous substances when used in incorrect people, but I'll leave it at that, I should let you do some research and find out for yourself, if you really care.
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If you give me some I'll do some trials and let you know how it works.
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On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either...
Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop.
The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +
Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life
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When people eat healthy, there is a vast improvement in their cognitive abilities. Should food be banned too, or where does one draw the line?
There are currently so many performance enhancing drugs that we have absolutely no way to test for. If we ban them, the only thing we're doing is empowering those who know which compounds can't be tested, giving them an unfair advantage over everyone else.
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[QUOTE]On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you one sixth of your fucking life[/QUOTE]
Again with the generalizations and COMPLETELY unfounded assumptions... Weed smoke is still smoke... Have you even read my post? This is starting to severely piss me off now...
How about you do some research before displaying your lack of knowledge so openly, almost proud, even?
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On February 19 2011 00:16 Twistacles wrote:
Uh.
You're asking if it's okay to take an amphetamine? Are you kidding? No.
The only drugs you need for starcraft are caffeine and marijuana.
Its marihuana in canada well if you're legal here it is. LOL I don't the letter change either but health canada seems to think theres a difference=p
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On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life
Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you.
I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis.
Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments.
edit: sorry read the 2posts as one
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On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life
Prove it before you assume it.
Just because someone dies 1/6th early from smoking weed AND cigarettes [people who smoke weed stereotypically also smoke cigarettes, though not in all cases] doesn't mean smoking weed necessarily contributed to the cause.
Studies haven't confirmed that myth, along with many other theories as to the effects of THC on the body. Just because it "may cause hindrances in learning ability" or "may shorten life expectancy" doesn't mean it does.
That's like me saying driving a car MAY result in death.
Or ingesting undercooked meat MAY cause food poisoning.
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On February 25 2011 02:55 paksam wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you. I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis. Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments. edit: sorry read the 2posts as one
Actually, weed is very harmful to your mental health long term =/
Recent studies also show that THC causes sexual inefficiency.
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On February 25 2011 04:35 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 02:55 paksam wrote:On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you. I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis. Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments. edit: sorry read the 2posts as one Actually, weed is very harmful to your mental health long term =/ Recent studies also show that THC causes sexual inefficiency.
My only reaction to that is "what the fuck?"
THC is a chemical that is widely known for the lack of negative effects it has on the human body.
While combusting ANY plant matter is always going to be bad for you (because 500 degree smoke in your lungs is never healthy) of course there is SOME degree of lung damage. However nicotine is much more dangerous because of its suppression of cilia in the lungs, which prevent them from removing the natural buildup of tar, dust, and other things that enter your lungs, as well as that contributed by cigarettes. The reason people don't get emphysema and die after thirty years of smoking weed is because the lung damage caused by it is so minor: their lungs aren't clogged with literally pounds of disgusting biological buildup and there is no polonium-210 irradiating them every second of every day.
THC has been shown to be hugely beneficial in many areas of medicine. Be it pain relief, tumour suppression, brain cell regrowth, or interocular pressure reduction. It has also been shown many, many, MANY! (I can't stress many enough times) to have ZERO negative effect on brain function. If you don't believe me, feel free to peruse this list of thousands of studies that all prove my points:
http://boards.cannabis.com/medicinal-cannabis-health/161539-granny-storm-crows-list.html
The psychological effects of the use of psychoactive drugs are much more subjective than the medical ones. Because psychological health can so widely vary between individuals, one person who develops amotivational disorder, depression, or even schizophrenia after using marijuana can not have been said to have developed it BECAUSE of their marijuana use. It's long been known that those predisposed to mental illnesses have them emerge during times of heavy stress, as while as when high. This is because people in an expanded state of mind will often make realizations that they had blocked through denial, or come to understand themselves in a way that isn't considered "normal" by society.
Sorry for the rant and kind of OT but the amount of misinformation in that post was staggering.
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On February 25 2011 04:45 42x10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:35 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 25 2011 02:55 paksam wrote:On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you. I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis. Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments. edit: sorry read the 2posts as one Actually, weed is very harmful to your mental health long term =/ Recent studies also show that THC causes sexual inefficiency. My only reaction to that is "what the fuck?" THC is a chemical that is widely known for the lack of negative effects it has on the human body. While combusting ANY plant matter is always going to be bad for you (because 500 degree smoke in your lungs is never healthy) of course there is SOME degree of lung damage. However nicotine is much more dangerous because of its suppression of cilia in the lungs, which prevent them from removing the natural buildup of tar, dust, and other things that enter your lungs, as well as that contributed by cigarettes. The reason people don't get emphysema and die after thirty years of smoking weed is because the lung damage caused by it is so minor: their lungs aren't clogged with literally pounds of disgusting biological buildup and there is no polonium-210 irradiating them every second of every day. THC has been shown to be hugely beneficial in many areas of medicine. Be it pain relief, tumour suppression, brain cell regrowth, or interocular pressure reduction. It has also been shown many, many, MANY! (I can't stress many enough times) to have ZERO negative effect on brain function. If you don't believe me, feel free to peruse this list of thousands of studies that all prove my points: http://boards.cannabis.com/medicinal-cannabis-health/161539-granny-storm-crows-list.htmlThe psychological effects of the use of psychoactive drugs are much more subjective than the medical ones. Because psychological health can so widely vary between individuals, one person who develops amotivational disorder, depression, or even schizophrenia after using marijuana can not have been said to have developed it BECAUSE of their marijuana use. It's long been known that those predisposed to mental illnesses have them emerge during times of heavy stress, as while as when high. This is because people in an expanded state of mind will often make realizations that they had blocked through denial, or come to understand themselves in a way that isn't considered "normal" by society. Sorry for the rant and kind of OT but the amount of misinformation in that post was staggering.
Or, do your own study and see with your own two eyes. Take a look at any person that smoked every day for the last 10+ years. I've known my fair share of people that smoked daily for a very long time, and you will never be able to convince me that weed has zero negative effect on brain function.
Also, it's spelled "pursue" not "persue"
EDIT:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/pot/f/mjp_faq14.htm
http://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html
Please don't do selective research. It makes you look like a complete idiot.
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On February 25 2011 04:52 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:45 42x10 wrote:On February 25 2011 04:35 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 25 2011 02:55 paksam wrote:On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you. I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis. Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments. edit: sorry read the 2posts as one Actually, weed is very harmful to your mental health long term =/ Recent studies also show that THC causes sexual inefficiency. My only reaction to that is "what the fuck?" THC is a chemical that is widely known for the lack of negative effects it has on the human body. While combusting ANY plant matter is always going to be bad for you (because 500 degree smoke in your lungs is never healthy) of course there is SOME degree of lung damage. However nicotine is much more dangerous because of its suppression of cilia in the lungs, which prevent them from removing the natural buildup of tar, dust, and other things that enter your lungs, as well as that contributed by cigarettes. The reason people don't get emphysema and die after thirty years of smoking weed is because the lung damage caused by it is so minor: their lungs aren't clogged with literally pounds of disgusting biological buildup and there is no polonium-210 irradiating them every second of every day. THC has been shown to be hugely beneficial in many areas of medicine. Be it pain relief, tumour suppression, brain cell regrowth, or interocular pressure reduction. It has also been shown many, many, MANY! (I can't stress many enough times) to have ZERO negative effect on brain function. If you don't believe me, feel free to peruse this list of thousands of studies that all prove my points: http://boards.cannabis.com/medicinal-cannabis-health/161539-granny-storm-crows-list.htmlThe psychological effects of the use of psychoactive drugs are much more subjective than the medical ones. Because psychological health can so widely vary between individuals, one person who develops amotivational disorder, depression, or even schizophrenia after using marijuana can not have been said to have developed it BECAUSE of their marijuana use. It's long been known that those predisposed to mental illnesses have them emerge during times of heavy stress, as while as when high. This is because people in an expanded state of mind will often make realizations that they had blocked through denial, or come to understand themselves in a way that isn't considered "normal" by society. Sorry for the rant and kind of OT but the amount of misinformation in that post was staggering. Or, do your own study and see with your own two eyes. Take a look at any person that smoked every day for the last 10+ years. I've known my fair share of people that smoked daily for a very long time, and you will never be able to convince me that weed has zero negative effect on brain function. Also, it's spelled "pursue" not "persue" EDIT: http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/pot/f/mjp_faq14.htmhttp://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.htmlPlease don't do selective research. It makes you look like a complete idiot.
Uh the word is "peruse" as in:
1.
to read through with thoroughness or care: to peruse a report.
If you had done that on the link i provided, you would have noticed it had thousands of sources from many different countries, instead of just information provided by the american government which you posted. By the way: That's the same government that has spent 70 years demonizing marijuana to protect paper and other industries that could easily be defeated by hemp.
Also i have smoked marijuana for about the last 13 years nearly daily and i've never been in better shape, nor have I felt better. I'm pretty sure you're a troll because you accused me of selective research and then ignored "Granny Storm Crows List" which is pretty much the holy grail of counter US marijuana propaganda.
You should watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9077214414651731007#
and then tell me whether or not marijuana is actually harmful.
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On February 25 2011 04:59 42x10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:52 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 25 2011 04:45 42x10 wrote:On February 25 2011 04:35 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 25 2011 02:55 paksam wrote:On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you. I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis. Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments. edit: sorry read the 2posts as one Actually, weed is very harmful to your mental health long term =/ Recent studies also show that THC causes sexual inefficiency. My only reaction to that is "what the fuck?" THC is a chemical that is widely known for the lack of negative effects it has on the human body. While combusting ANY plant matter is always going to be bad for you (because 500 degree smoke in your lungs is never healthy) of course there is SOME degree of lung damage. However nicotine is much more dangerous because of its suppression of cilia in the lungs, which prevent them from removing the natural buildup of tar, dust, and other things that enter your lungs, as well as that contributed by cigarettes. The reason people don't get emphysema and die after thirty years of smoking weed is because the lung damage caused by it is so minor: their lungs aren't clogged with literally pounds of disgusting biological buildup and there is no polonium-210 irradiating them every second of every day. THC has been shown to be hugely beneficial in many areas of medicine. Be it pain relief, tumour suppression, brain cell regrowth, or interocular pressure reduction. It has also been shown many, many, MANY! (I can't stress many enough times) to have ZERO negative effect on brain function. If you don't believe me, feel free to peruse this list of thousands of studies that all prove my points: http://boards.cannabis.com/medicinal-cannabis-health/161539-granny-storm-crows-list.htmlThe psychological effects of the use of psychoactive drugs are much more subjective than the medical ones. Because psychological health can so widely vary between individuals, one person who develops amotivational disorder, depression, or even schizophrenia after using marijuana can not have been said to have developed it BECAUSE of their marijuana use. It's long been known that those predisposed to mental illnesses have them emerge during times of heavy stress, as while as when high. This is because people in an expanded state of mind will often make realizations that they had blocked through denial, or come to understand themselves in a way that isn't considered "normal" by society. Sorry for the rant and kind of OT but the amount of misinformation in that post was staggering. Or, do your own study and see with your own two eyes. Take a look at any person that smoked every day for the last 10+ years. I've known my fair share of people that smoked daily for a very long time, and you will never be able to convince me that weed has zero negative effect on brain function. Also, it's spelled "pursue" not "persue" EDIT: http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/pot/f/mjp_faq14.htmhttp://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.htmlPlease don't do selective research. It makes you look like a complete idiot. Uh the word is "peruse" as in: 1. to read through with thoroughness or care: to peruse a report. If you had done that on the link i provided, you would have noticed it had thousands of sources from many different countries, instead of just information provided by the american government which you posted. By the way: That's the same government that has spent 70 years demonizing marijuana to protect paper and other industries that could easily be defeated by hemp. Also i have smoked marijuana for about the last 13 years nearly daily and i've never been in better shape, nor have I felt better. I'm pretty sure you're a troll because you accused me of selective research and then ignored "Granny Storm Crows List" which is pretty much the holy grail of counter US marijuana propaganda. You should watch this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9077214414651731007#and then tell me whether or not marijuana is actually harmful.
I'm not checking out any of your sources until you check out my sources. The fact that you neglected my sources simply shows me that you're biased.
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On February 25 2011 03:10 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Prove it before you assume it. Just because someone dies 1/6th early from smoking weed AND cigarettes [people who smoke weed stereotypically also smoke cigarettes, though not in all cases] doesn't mean smoking weed necessarily contributed to the cause. Studies haven't confirmed that myth, along with many other theories as to the effects of THC on the body. Just because it "may cause hindrances in learning ability" or "may shorten life expectancy" doesn't mean it does. That's like me saying driving a car MAY result in death. Or ingesting undercooked meat MAY cause food poisoning.
Um, the study says people who smoke cigarettes die 14 years earlier (corrected for other factors too, I think.) It's not about smoking weed. Neither is it about people who smoke weed and tobaco. It's about normal cigarettes.
That's exactly my point, that "regular" smoking is so dangerous that it's preposterous to say marijuana is worse.
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I am very, very pro cannabis but you have to be fucking kidding if you believe it's completely harmless. Maybe if it's used in edibles it is harmless, I don't know. That being said, it's clearly safer for you than both alcohol and tobacco/nicotine.
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On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:
Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you one sixth of your fucking life Again with the generalizations and COMPLETELY unfounded assumptions... Weed smoke is still smoke... Have you even read my post? This is starting to severely piss me off now... How about you do some research before displaying your lack of knowledge so openly, almost proud, even?
Yes, I have. I responded to one specific point. I.e that "weed-smoke is as harmful or more than tobaco".
From a health perspective that's just not true. Tobaco is more harmful, the evidence is fairly conclusive. My first post contains sources. It does not contain unfounded assumptions or unwarranted generalizations.
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I'm pretty sure no one smokes weed then plays successfully at an SC2 tourny, so can we not have the "weed argument" here please?
Some information on mind enhancing drugs is detailed here in this Discover Magazine Article.
Edit: Added an adjective.
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On February 25 2011 05:06 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 04:59 42x10 wrote:On February 25 2011 04:52 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 25 2011 04:45 42x10 wrote:On February 25 2011 04:35 RoosterSamurai wrote:On February 25 2011 02:55 paksam wrote:On February 20 2011 12:04 hypercube wrote:On February 20 2011 08:34 mcbrite wrote:
Most of your post is actually bullshit... Like that smoking weed is better than cigarettes... There is many studies that weed-smoke is either AS harmful or even MORE harmful than tobacco... And that's without the detrimental effects of weed added to it... I smoked weed like a fiend for over 10 years, so I'm not just talking out of my ass, either... Do you realize how dangerous cigarette smoking is? It's basically a form of poison that is only tolerated because it's so widespread and very hard to stop. The wikipedia article quotes a number from a CDC publication for the expected number of life years lost for smokers. Take a guess before you look at the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +Do I think smoking weed is harmless? Probably not. But it sure as hell doesn't cost you + Show Spoiler +one sixth of your fucking life Yes smoking weed is bad for you but you are seem to be generalizing that weed is harmful to you when there has not been 1 death reported directly due to consuming weed, while tobacco has been proven that it is terrible and can/will kill you. I'm just asking you to have an open mind instead of attacking people who have a love for cannabis. Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments. edit: sorry read the 2posts as one Actually, weed is very harmful to your mental health long term =/ Recent studies also show that THC causes sexual inefficiency. My only reaction to that is "what the fuck?" THC is a chemical that is widely known for the lack of negative effects it has on the human body. While combusting ANY plant matter is always going to be bad for you (because 500 degree smoke in your lungs is never healthy) of course there is SOME degree of lung damage. However nicotine is much more dangerous because of its suppression of cilia in the lungs, which prevent them from removing the natural buildup of tar, dust, and other things that enter your lungs, as well as that contributed by cigarettes. The reason people don't get emphysema and die after thirty years of smoking weed is because the lung damage caused by it is so minor: their lungs aren't clogged with literally pounds of disgusting biological buildup and there is no polonium-210 irradiating them every second of every day. THC has been shown to be hugely beneficial in many areas of medicine. Be it pain relief, tumour suppression, brain cell regrowth, or interocular pressure reduction. It has also been shown many, many, MANY! (I can't stress many enough times) to have ZERO negative effect on brain function. If you don't believe me, feel free to peruse this list of thousands of studies that all prove my points: http://boards.cannabis.com/medicinal-cannabis-health/161539-granny-storm-crows-list.htmlThe psychological effects of the use of psychoactive drugs are much more subjective than the medical ones. Because psychological health can so widely vary between individuals, one person who develops amotivational disorder, depression, or even schizophrenia after using marijuana can not have been said to have developed it BECAUSE of their marijuana use. It's long been known that those predisposed to mental illnesses have them emerge during times of heavy stress, as while as when high. This is because people in an expanded state of mind will often make realizations that they had blocked through denial, or come to understand themselves in a way that isn't considered "normal" by society. Sorry for the rant and kind of OT but the amount of misinformation in that post was staggering. Or, do your own study and see with your own two eyes. Take a look at any person that smoked every day for the last 10+ years. I've known my fair share of people that smoked daily for a very long time, and you will never be able to convince me that weed has zero negative effect on brain function. Also, it's spelled "pursue" not "persue" EDIT: http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/pot/f/mjp_faq14.htmhttp://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.htmlPlease don't do selective research. It makes you look like a complete idiot. Uh the word is "peruse" as in: 1. to read through with thoroughness or care: to peruse a report. If you had done that on the link i provided, you would have noticed it had thousands of sources from many different countries, instead of just information provided by the american government which you posted. By the way: That's the same government that has spent 70 years demonizing marijuana to protect paper and other industries that could easily be defeated by hemp. Also i have smoked marijuana for about the last 13 years nearly daily and i've never been in better shape, nor have I felt better. I'm pretty sure you're a troll because you accused me of selective research and then ignored "Granny Storm Crows List" which is pretty much the holy grail of counter US marijuana propaganda. You should watch this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9077214414651731007#and then tell me whether or not marijuana is actually harmful. I'm not checking out any of your sources until you check out my sources. The fact that you neglected my sources simply shows me that you're biased.
I didn't neglect them at all. In fact i even said "instead of just information provided by the american government which you posted". So i'll take them one by one:
1. "What Are the Long-Term Effects of Marijuana? From National Institute on Drug Abuse"
This a study with a fairly small sample size (450 people) that shows that while they smoked only marijuana, they had "a higher incidence" of respiratory problems. Keep in mind these are californians who could very well all live in LA, a place with terrible air quality which is also very powerfully indicated in respiratory problems. They don't even give any statistics, rather just saying there was an "increased incidence" of airway problems. There's not even a single number in that article.
2. NIDA InfoFacts: Marijuana
Literally everything on this list is DIRECTLY argued against by the documentary i linked you to, "The Union." These are old facts that are long held to be incorrect. Once again, give the documentary a chance. Almost in order in fact it addresses all of the claims in the NIDA marijuana facts.
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Ok before you go any further in my orginal post I clearly state "Your previous experiences (10years) lead me to believe that you may have been an abuser of cannabis. This is not the case for many, so please do not generalize and post biased arguments." and you go on to rebutt with the fact that abusing marajuana is detrimental. I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point. I have recently stopped smoking alot due to the fact that I felt that myself was being hyprocritical since I try and compare cannabis with alcohol; but I never really abused alcohol. So my point is, we live in a world where it is socially unacceptable nor do I think it will ever (and IMO this is because I have no faith in humanity). But I believe you are wrong in trying to spread the word that cannabis is bad for you. I hope you will try to look at it from my point of view, thanks for your time.
edit: damnit I quoted the wrong thing.
Sorry about getting off topic, I believe that it is entirely wrong to use any drug that may be considered performance-enhancing when it comes to any professional sport/esport, since it may give you an unfair advantage against those who don't use the drugs.
edit2: trying to be relavant
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EPT
