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Headphone enthusiast thread! - Page 23

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zak
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1009 Posts
December 10 2010 11:44 GMT
#441
thank you very much! i kinda guessed as well!
You know how to gain a victory, but not use it - maharbal
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 09:08:35
December 11 2010 09:06 GMT
#442
On December 10 2010 17:37 Fyodor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 03:55 Myrmidon wrote:
On December 09 2010 18:03 Fyodor wrote:
On December 09 2010 10:35 Myrmidon wrote:
On December 07 2010 19:49 Fyodor wrote:
On December 07 2010 16:33 Myrmidon wrote:
On December 07 2010 13:56 Fyodor wrote:
On December 06 2010 09:22 Demi9OD wrote:
On November 13 2010 12:50 Fyodor wrote:
On November 13 2010 12:44 Demi9OD wrote:
Weird this thread just popped up and I saw the DT990s I bought last week on the first page. I was using audio technica ath-m50's for about two years prior, but I don't need a closed design any more (no roommate) and I found their clamp force fatiguing after a couple hours. The 32ohm version works just fine out of my Soundblaster X-Fi but this NuForce Icon uDAC-2 has been tempting me.

I'd recommend the Audio-GD Sparrow. Wasn't a fan of the first uDAC. Don't think it would well with the DT990 either.


I ended up getting a Asus Xonar Essence STX to replace my X-Fi Music, instead of a dedicated DAC/Amp. I really like the Dolby Headphone setting for FPS gaming and movies, and have been having fun doing op-amp swapping to find my perfect audio signature for music. So far the OPA op-amps have been my favorites, OP2137 at the moment. I have tried 49720NA, LT1358 and LT1057, and OPA2137.

lol I think my Audio-GD came with an OP2137. It's pretty decent. When I finally let my discrete opamp burn in there was no turning back though. Talking about OPA Earth here.


Forgive my ignorance, but what's the technical explanation behind op amp swapping? Or any rationale at all? I have a degree in EE and am working on another, but my specialty has nothing to do with electronics, so I only have limited knowledge in this area.

If you look at the SNR, THD, etc. of the expensive (well, above a couple dollars a piece is expensive as far as op amps goes) op amps used for audio buffers and current drivers, they're specced way beyond the threshold of human hearing. Slew rate, max voltage swing, etc. are usually more than sufficient, and the transient response looks great too. Many of the op amps used are actually often intended for other applications that have much more stringent requirements than audio. e.g. a lot of them pass frequencies much higher than 20kHz.

Granted, those specs are what the manufacturer is listing under their controlled testing environment and implementation. Maybe performance is different in a different circuit, like in a complete amplifier device? If the exact implementation is that important (I wouldn't think it would be with many classes of op amps), wouldn't the amp circuit be designed for the stock op amp? Then wouldn't the circuit be suboptimal for a different op amp you are switching to?

Or maybe humans are good at hearing certain types of transient distortions that don't show up in the traditional canned response and distortion tests listed on the specs?

(Another, much simpler explanation maybe would involve concepts like placebo and group think, but I'm not that quick to dismiss something I don't have much experience or knowledge of.)

That's an excellent question, probably the best question asked in my thread so far. I can't tell you much about the science but opamps do sound different from one another.

Generally you want an opamp with a flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, audio is extremely sensitive to that. You also take out opamps with power/bandwidth ratings that aren't suitable for audio applications and you're not left with that many choices. Chips that are left have different SNR, frequency response, input/output impedance etc and you have to find which one works for you. Opamp switching is more about altering flavor though, some opamps might be more popular in audio despite that they don't have a perfectly flat frequency response.

Did my best to talk to you about opamps but I'm not an engineer, you can tell me if I'm being a fool here, I'd be glad.


Well, even if the requirements do rule out 99% (arbitrary figure--I have no idea how much it really is) of op amps, 1% still represents lots and lots of op amps.

Anyhow, the question is not about why certain op amps are unsuitable. Many general-purpose or specialized op amps would sound absolutely terrible, because of unacceptable distortion levels, poor characteristics close to 0V, not being able to supply enough current, not having enough voltage swing, having too low slew rate, or whatever, as you say.

In any case, the input and output impedance, gain-bandwidth product, SNR, IMD, output characteristics, operating range, etc. should be sufficient for a group of op amps that we'll call "suitable for audio."

The question is about why one should favor one suitable-for-audio op amp over another. If you look at the specs, these devices (e.g. LM4652) are getting THD+N at around 0.0001% with reasonable output levels and loads. If there's another op amp with a THD+N at around 0.0001% (or even at 0.005% for that matter), are you going going to be able to hear the difference between those two? It's not just THD+N that looks ludicrously good beyond the threshold of audibility, but all relevant stats that are reported.

Think about it this way: let's say we have one device that reproduces a signal that is 99.999% true to the original in some sense. If you have another device that reproduces a signal that is 99.999% true to the original, why would you want the first device over the second, or the second one over the first? How do you distinguish between the two? Even if the 0.001% "inaccuracy" occurs differently in the two devices, aren't they both already so close it doesn't matter?

The above is a gross oversimplification, of course--just used as an explanation.

I understand what you're saying and looking at the oversimplified specs it does seem silly to compare opamps that are theoretically perfect, but you're arguing within a vacuum. If you can show me that there exists at least a few ideal opamps with flawless specs like we enumerated then we'll have made some work here.

I know these are well regarded opamps for a headphone amplifier or DAC:

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf

http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa134.pdf

Can't make heads or tails of these spec sheets though. Don't how perfect they are (or aren't) for audio.


A note first about most audio-DG products: you say that your Koss KSC35 sounds better using one, so a good DAC must make a big difference.

As they advertise, their DACs are supposed to color the sound, i.e. make it different from the original by intentionally adding certain distortions, maybe doing some EQ too as well. Who knows. (They do sell some DACs that are supposed to be less colored, but I don't know the specifics or the extent of what they're doing.) Therefore, it's not at all surprising that your KSC35 would sound different with them, and probably better--if that distorted sound is your preference.

It's the same idea behind tube amps. In theory, they are supposed to distort in ways that are pleasing. Mostly, it's adding extra harmonic content (2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. above the fundamental, and things like that) to the original signal, which creates a fuller or warmer sound, to most peoples' ears. Actually, this is similar in some fashion to an organ with all its stops.

There are many different ways to distort the sound intentionally or unintentionally. When you're looking for what sounds the "best", that's hard to define since that will be different for each person. What is a good DAC? One that sounds the best, or one that produces the cleanest output, closest to the source material?

The former is hard to define, while the latter is simpler to measure. Standard audio measurements are just measures of the distortion, i.e. the difference between the output and the input. Usually these tests are done with pretty simple inputs, like a sine wave at a single frequency.
+ Show Spoiler [about distortion measures] +
The total harmonic distortion is a measure of all the output signal power that occurs at frequencies other than the test tone. If you play a 60 Hz signal, output at 90 Hz, 851 Hz, etc. would be considered distortion. (However, extra power at 120 Hz would be a distortion that does not sound bad at all, while extra power at an unrelated frequency like 140 Hz would be much more grating.) Frequently, the baseline noise is considered along with THD because you can't distinguish between the two. You can think of THD and other distortions as noise anyway.

The intermodulation distortion is another measure of nonlinearity. If you input a signal with frequency content at A Hz and B Hz into a perfectly linear system, then the output would only have frequency content at A Hz and B Hz. However, real-world systems often have significant output power at A + B Hz, A - B Hz, etc. -- sums and differences of the original input signals. This is known as the intermodulation distortion (IMD).

Both THD and IMD for the op amps you showed were vanishingly small. They don't report any other distortion measures, except maybe the step response graphs, which look really good. (Look at the time scale.) We're mostly interested in performance at small closed-loop gains, like G = 1. In this case, the frequency response of the OPA134 is flat until 2 MHz, way past the audio range. Other specs are similar to this.

So I wonder benefit a discrete DAC device has over the DAC section of a sound card. The high-end DAC chips likewise have high specs for SNR, THD, etc. like the op amps we're looking at. Both the DAC section in a high-end sound card and a discrete DAC device may use the same DAC chip. The discrete DAC device may just have better EMI shielding or isolation (does this matter, unless stray radiation is actually a problem?), better power supply filtering, and a nicer-looking case. The circuits are going to be pretty much what's on a sound card. What else am I missing?

And you'll notice all these devices have a power supply rejection ratio of like 100 dB. If you've got 50 mV peak-to-peak ripple on your supply rail for your DAC or op amps on a sound card, this means something like 500 nV peak-to-peak noise induced by the power supply on a sound card, which is not only way way below the threshold of hearing, but below the other noise in the system. Do you need super-duper power supply filtering on a discrete DAC device to get 8 mV peak-to-peak ripple on your supply rail, so you can have 80 nV peak-to-peak noise from the power supply noise?

Yes, there are a few small assumptions or details I'm glossing over, which is the point. I'm interested in hearing which parts actually make a difference.

edit: I actually wrote this post before I saw your last one about sound cards vs. DACs good timing?

edit2: Just to give a reference point for noise figures, let's assume you are listening at an output level of 1V (pretty loud--this would be at or above 100 dB SPL on most headphones). Let's assume our output listening level is 100 dB then, though it will depend on that input level and the headphones in question. 1 uV = 1000 nV of noise would give you a SNR of 10^6 = 120 dB. The noise would be 100 - 120 = -20 dB, where 0 dB is the threshold of human hearing. This is why I questioned the power supply requirements earlier. Even if you have only 80-90 dB power supply rejection ratio (PSRR), that's still plenty enough without worrying about getting the cleanest possible power supply rails. Most high-end audio op amps seem to be specified around a noise level of 1-5 uV in the audio range.

About Audio-GD, they are not reputed for colored equipment. Only some models offer intentional coloration and they are clearly marked as so. Kingwa always pushes the neutral parts over the other ones. My particular gear is known for being neutral.

About distortions that are "below the threshold of hearing". Perhaps it is justified to discard these but I've been thinking that we have talked about those in a vacuum. When thinking about an audio system, small distortions can add up when you think about all the different stages the signal goes through.I can't possibly begin to do the science on this though.

Maybe you think I'm being irrational because I don't like to think scientifically about audio gear. I'm a big computer geek too and specs matter a whole lot in that domain. When I got into audio, I threw that love of science out of the window pretty fast. When I buy gear I rarely keep it for long, I sell, trade, buy on a monthly basis. I always much prefer to listen as final judgment and it's treated me very well so far. I'm a musician too so I know how things are supposed to sound. If the science says that a few jellybean chips assorted by people who don't care strapped onto a computer power supply represent audio perfection well I might as well be religious about audio because that's not what I'm hearing.

I'd love to meet an actual audio engineer who has built headphone amps and DACs for a living. He could tell me what's what in audio but that hasn't happened to me so far. Although you are being helpful so far and I'm thankful for that.


I stand corrected on Audio-gd then, as I definitely don't know much about many products and brands out there.

Just to be clear, I am not professing to know whether or not things are true or not, or if something sounds the same or not. I'm just writing down a line of thinking, hoping that somebody with more practical or theoretical knowledge than me will come along and disagree or agree with any of the claims, showing why some are and are not valid. Unfortunately, nobody more knowledgeable has come along, so I'll stop trolling and fishing for feedback.

So I'll spoiler the rest of the response. Sorry for the derailment!
+ Show Spoiler [rest of post] +
Also, I never implied that really cheap DACs, amps, etc. are great. It just seems to me, looking at reported specs, that gear with well-implemented circuits and higher-end components should all sound practically the same. (Or rather, those products intended to be accurate aka transparent.) You can get really high-performance ICs for many applications--not just audio of course--relatively cheap these days, unlike decades ago.

I also have theories about why there should be a difference even between different higher-end audio gear. Previously I mentioned how power supply filtering doesn't seem to be that important, if the op amps have a power supply rejection ratio of 100 dB or something like that. However, dirty power could still easily effect the signal somewhere else in the audio signal chain. This is just one simple example.

+ Show Spoiler [about PSRR] +
FYI, normally, the DC power supplied to the power rails of an amp device will have a small undesired AC component. This AC component essentially gets reflected onto the output of the device, which adds an undesired noise component to the desired output signal. The copied version on the outputs is usually much smaller in magnitude than the version on the power supply rails. The power supply rejection ratio (PSRR) is the ratio of the AC noise signal on the power supply rails to that on the output of the device.


Here is an interesting and marginally related presentation by an audio engineer. I wouldn't take their word for everything either, of course, but there were some neat concepts and demos:


As mentioned in the youtube description, audio files used in the presentation are on his web page, since of course youtube mangles the sound.
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
December 11 2010 09:08 GMT
#443
My cans are starting to degrade in quality.

I'm looking for good durable headphones that can withstand being played loudly without losing volume and sound quality quickly. My budget is about $180. Suggestions?
RIP Aaliyah
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-11 09:21:32
December 11 2010 09:15 GMT
#444
Any requirements on how it sounds, other than not degrading quickly? Closed or open? Around the ear or on the ear?

edit:+ Show Spoiler [nevermind about this] +
I'm sleepy and can't think straight, so just ignore the below lol.

Also, how loud do you listen? Most decent cans are rated for something like 100 mW output power, at which they'd be outputting something in the range of 115 dB SPL. That's jackhammer-level volumes. However, I'm not at all sure how to interpret this power rating to life expectancy, so that figure may not really mean anything. edit: what source are you plugging your headphones into? Have you had more than one set of cans killed by the same source? Actually, I wonder if the headphone transducers dying have more to do with mechanical rather than electrical stressing...
zak
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1009 Posts
December 11 2010 10:40 GMT
#445
On December 10 2010 20:42 JSH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 19:39 zak wrote:
Can someone tell me what headphone the guys in the GSL are using? They look like Sonys. Does anyone know for sure? Really appreciate it!


Sony MDR-XB700 I believe

[image loading]



just bought the MDR XB500. Love these...so light and very comfy. My Planatronics hurt my ears after 30 minutes.

So cool that the GSL guys use the same thing!
You know how to gain a victory, but not use it - maharbal
kariido
Profile Joined December 2007
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
December 11 2010 11:37 GMT
#446
Are any of the Razer headphone/headset products recommended? I'm just looking for above average sound quality
http://campaignforliberty.org/
Fyodor
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada971 Posts
December 11 2010 12:22 GMT
#447
On December 11 2010 20:37 kariido wrote:
Are any of the Razer headphone/headset products recommended? I'm just looking for above average sound quality

I had the Razer Charcarias and it's junk. I just gave it to my mom. Megalodon should be even worse.

Alessandro MS1i / Grado SR60i
Audio-Technica AD700
Audio-Technica M50

Those are generally recommended in that price range.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
KinosJourney2
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Sweden1811 Posts
December 11 2010 12:38 GMT
#448
I use these:
[image loading]

Tbh the sound quality is very bad considering how much i paid for them and my ears get super sore if i wear them for more than 1-2 hours cause they are so small. Maybe the sound quality is so bad cause i've used them as speakers for better sound quality lately, but they shouldn't be able to sell this kind of junk so expensively then have it degrade so fast.
ocho wrote: EDIT: NEVERMIND, THIS THING HAS APM TECHNOLOGY OMG
kariido
Profile Joined December 2007
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
December 11 2010 12:39 GMT
#449
Thanks for the quick reply, I'll look into those. There isn't that big of a selection here in Riyadh but I'll see what's around.
http://campaignforliberty.org/
zak
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1009 Posts
December 11 2010 13:13 GMT
#450
the razer headphones are too crappy for how expensive they are imo. Very heavy also compared to other brands!
You know how to gain a victory, but not use it - maharbal
FruitGG
Profile Joined August 2010
United States73 Posts
December 11 2010 14:08 GMT
#451
On December 11 2010 18:08 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
My cans are starting to degrade in quality.

I'm looking for good durable headphones that can withstand being played loudly without losing volume and sound quality quickly. My budget is about $180. Suggestions?


Are you open to IEMs?
Fischer Audio's DBA-02 has been receiving alot of love for a few months now. From what I've heard they're pretty good with different kinds of genres as they sound pretty neutral.
BlueRoyaL
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
United States2493 Posts
December 11 2010 14:18 GMT
#452
On December 10 2010 09:54 hifriend wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 06:12 hifriend wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with the ATH-M50's especially for EDM, house, electro and such?

Fuck it just placed the order, $242. Hope I like em.

[image loading]


oh wow, 242? is that US$?
i was thinking about switching from earbuds to headphones, dont wanna continue damaging my ears and this looks pretty sick. let me know how it is! i did my own searcing and most reviews i read were all good.

fortunately for us, the price is wayyyy cheaper..
google price search
lists at byay.net for $70?... =(
WHAT'S HAPPENIN
arctia
Profile Joined December 2010
61 Posts
December 11 2010 17:00 GMT
#453
If you don't mind them being used, you can get a pair of quality headphones really cheap from the headphone community: head-fi.org. I usually browse the sales forum there for good deals.
echo_O
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States115 Posts
December 11 2010 17:04 GMT
#454
On December 11 2010 23:18 BlueRoyaL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 09:54 hifriend wrote:
On December 10 2010 06:12 hifriend wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with the ATH-M50's especially for EDM, house, electro and such?

Fuck it just placed the order, $242. Hope I like em.

[image loading]


oh wow, 242? is that US$?
i was thinking about switching from earbuds to headphones, dont wanna continue damaging my ears and this looks pretty sick. let me know how it is! i did my own searcing and most reviews i read were all good.

fortunately for us, the price is wayyyy cheaper..
google price search
lists at byay.net for $70?... =(


I just got my pair today for... $119 USD. gotta do your research before buying my man. Also, I've heard that byay.net is a sketchy site so don't get it from there, just my opinion. They sound very very nice. I'm liking the closed headphones. I used to use the Sennheiser HD555 and these sound soooo much better, especially the bass considering they are closed and not open headphones. At first they may feel a little tight so I put them over my computer so they would stretch a bit and turned on music to burn them in. I think you need about 50 hours until they sound freaking amazing. All in all, I am very impressed but honestly if you spent 242 US$, you should have gotten something better. I would not pay over $150 for these.
hmmm
st3f
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada168 Posts
December 11 2010 17:12 GMT
#455
On December 11 2010 23:18 BlueRoyaL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 09:54 hifriend wrote:
On December 10 2010 06:12 hifriend wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with the ATH-M50's especially for EDM, house, electro and such?

Fuck it just placed the order, $242. Hope I like em.

[image loading]


oh wow, 242? is that US$?
i was thinking about switching from earbuds to headphones, dont wanna continue damaging my ears and this looks pretty sick. let me know how it is! i did my own searcing and most reviews i read were all good.

fortunately for us, the price is wayyyy cheaper..
google price search
lists at byay.net for $70?... =(


I got them off ebay during the summer holidays, for $100, it's really good trust me. IMO better than the Beats Studio by Dre
Wakin and bakin - Wiz
Lowko
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands286 Posts
December 11 2010 17:36 GMT
#456
[image loading]

For sure the best headset I have ever bought. So comfortabel and very nice quality.
www.LowkoTV.com
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13379 Posts
December 11 2010 18:06 GMT
#457
On December 12 2010 02:12 st3f wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2010 23:18 BlueRoyaL wrote:
On December 10 2010 09:54 hifriend wrote:
On December 10 2010 06:12 hifriend wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with the ATH-M50's especially for EDM, house, electro and such?

Fuck it just placed the order, $242. Hope I like em.

[image loading]


oh wow, 242? is that US$?
i was thinking about switching from earbuds to headphones, dont wanna continue damaging my ears and this looks pretty sick. let me know how it is! i did my own searcing and most reviews i read were all good.

fortunately for us, the price is wayyyy cheaper..
google price search
lists at byay.net for $70?... =(


I got them off ebay during the summer holidays, for $100, it's really good trust me. IMO better than the Beats Studio by Dre


A lot of things are better than the Beats by Dre tbh they are about 100$ too pricey for what you get out of them
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Zeller
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States1109 Posts
December 11 2010 18:09 GMT
#458
On December 10 2010 09:54 hifriend wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2010 06:12 hifriend wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with the ATH-M50's especially for EDM, house, electro and such?

Fuck it just placed the order, $242. Hope I like em.

[image loading]


I use these out of my pc, honestly like them better then Sennhesier 595s
Last.Epic , Epic[LighT]
Katkishka
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States643 Posts
December 11 2010 18:22 GMT
#459
Is there any major difference between the DT990 32 ohm and 600 ohm models (assuming the latter has a decent amp to go with it)?
Stoids
Profile Joined August 2010
United States636 Posts
December 11 2010 18:35 GMT
#460
Just ordered my AD700's today. Will let you know my opinion :D
*Insert Inspirational Day[9] Daily #100 Quote* | Fantasy | qxc, Brat_OK
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