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On November 13 2010 01:17 citi.zen wrote:Not saying it's an excuse in the 1st quarter, but perhaps he didn't want to get called for a quick foul, MIA is a bit undersized as it stands. BOS is the opposite - they live by the "no easy baskets" mantra and have done well to stock enough big bodies. But yeah...Bosh playing like that in the first quarter of a home game isn't helping his team.
Miami fans, meet Chris Bosh, a 7 foot tall jumpshooter with a little quickness. No finish around the hoop, no toughness, no D, no help D, no post game.
ENjoy.
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Michael Boshley. Chris Boshley, Chris Beasley, i cant decide which name to refer to Bosh as.
Chris Boshley, CB1 wrong decision
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On November 13 2010 02:03 a176 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 01:17 citi.zen wrote:Not saying it's an excuse in the 1st quarter, but perhaps he didn't want to get called for a quick foul, MIA is a bit undersized as it stands. BOS is the opposite - they live by the "no easy baskets" mantra and have done well to stock enough big bodies. But yeah...Bosh playing like that in the first quarter of a home game isn't helping his team. he was guarding KG. if you see rondo coming down the lane and KG right by the net, what should you do? you obviously expect the pass. but even if bosh did go up, he would have gotten the foul. he only ended up with 2 fouls for the game. considering miami's lack of big guys, its best he not get fouled out (ended up with 4 offensive rbs).
Here's what you do: don't be a bitch and let a 6'1 point guard flush a dunk in your face
Rondo's a guaranteed basket, KG might miss, Rondo might fuck up the pass, at least TRY to defend it he barely moved
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Back to rondo vs rose:
Not like rondo vs chicago didn't happen.. He single-handedly murdered them more than once. Think of rondo vs chicago with no KG, nobody even expected celts to do well. And then rondo steps up. He was also going to get a fucking mvp if LA lost.
Too bad this guy got banned for something else, he deserved to be punished for posting nonsense in this thread.
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KG has always punked Bosh when they played even in his Toronto days. With that said Bosh is a SF in a PF body, and his defense has always been criminal. Miami needs an MLE center if theyre gonna bang with Boston LA or D12. Too bad they got MIke Miller. cHeat exposedddddd
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Austin10833 Posts
On November 13 2010 02:48 KOFgokuon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 02:03 a176 wrote:On November 13 2010 01:17 citi.zen wrote:Not saying it's an excuse in the 1st quarter, but perhaps he didn't want to get called for a quick foul, MIA is a bit undersized as it stands. BOS is the opposite - they live by the "no easy baskets" mantra and have done well to stock enough big bodies. But yeah...Bosh playing like that in the first quarter of a home game isn't helping his team. he was guarding KG. if you see rondo coming down the lane and KG right by the net, what should you do? you obviously expect the pass. but even if bosh did go up, he would have gotten the foul. he only ended up with 2 fouls for the game. considering miami's lack of big guys, its best he not get fouled out (ended up with 4 offensive rbs). Here's what you do: don't be a bitch and let a 6'1 point guard flush a dunk in your face Rondo's a guaranteed basket, KG might miss, Rondo might fuck up the pass, at least TRY to defend it he barely moved
Yeah, you have to play the driver. No reason to allow an almost certain basket because you're trying to defend a theoretical basket from KG. Even if it's just to establish presence, you have to defend that.
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On November 13 2010 01:56 Demarini wrote:
rondos court vision is unmatched. the guy makes the most unreal passes look easy.
edit- and i watch the celtics pretty often, i live in boston, im a huge boston sports fan. a lot of you watch sportscenter, look at the stats, the highlight reel, and think you know what rondo does. if you watch rondo play, you would see that HE is the one that dictates the pace of the game. not pierce, not allen, not garnett, not kobe when they play against the lakers, not lebron or wade, rajon rondo runs people up and down the court, and make great defenders look foolish. hes remarkably quick, and has grown into a great player while rose was already there on his way into the nba. the job as the point guard is to run the offense, not "score baskets" and get all this macho business done. rondo does that far better than rose.
This is something many people don't realize - rondo completely runs the game, the only time he doesn't is when they want pierce to close out. He runs a team with 4 hall-of-famers while being 24 yrs old, none of them even question his authority on play calling. You kind of have to live in MA in order to feel their chemistry, because I can turn the radio on in the morning and listen to paul talk about how rondo is amazing and makes things easy for everyone.
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I thought bosh did better last night compared to what he was recently.
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miami 5-4 lol.. who woulda thought
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On November 12 2010 15:50 Holcan wrote:
lol @ coach k cutting him when it was clearly a mutual agreement as he had a relative pass away and didnt want to be away from family for such a long period. Im sure Rondo would have made it on the team over the two guards Eric Gordon and Stephan Curry, he can actually break defenses down and pressure half court better than both of them, Coach K was definitely not happy to hear that he would lose one of the best PGs he was offered, even if Rose started because of his ability to hit three ball and Chauncey was there because he gave veteran leadership. Like i said, Rondo left because he had a relative pass away, it was mutual between the camp, who were looking to get rid of a player, and rondo, who didnt want to dedicate his entire life to basketball.
I doubt rondo would of made it over Gordon or Curry. Team USA was already forced to play Billups at SG and was carrying Rose and Westbrook as their PGs and both of them can't shoot. Gordon and Curry was simply a better fit than Rondo. Taking the player that fits the most as opposed to taking the best player is the new mantra for Team USA ever since coach K/colangelo took over.
Actually Rose's only advantage over Rondo is scoring. Passing, all aspects of defense, rebounding, playoff performance, leadership, cross match-up problems - Rondo has him beat by far. Rose has high potential but hasn't put it all together yet.
Rose also has better leadership. It was only a year or so ago when Danny Ainge wanted to trade Rondo away but couldn't get a decent offer. Words on the internet was that Rondo was a headcase to coach/deal with.
(I specifically recall a one possession in a playoff game, Celtics was trailing some team by 1 or 2 points and celtics have the ball with 7 seconds left. Rondo gets the inbound pass and dribble dribble dribble in place for 6 seconds and pull up for a long 2 pointer as a final shot. I can't imagine a sane coach drawing up a final play that involves Rondo making a long range shot when you have Pierce/Allen/Garnnet on your team so I'm pretty sure Rondo just hogged the ball for that possession)
Honestly if you swapped Rondo's environment (Surrounded by 3 future HoF players and a strong coach) and Rose's environment (relatively young/inexperienced team), I'm not 100% sure that Rondo would of became a star. I can see him butting heads with Vinny DelNegro constantly. Rose on the other hand, would of been a monster either way.
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Rose and Westbrook as their PGs and both of them can't shoot
wat.
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United States4471 Posts
In my opinion, Rondo is definitely better than Rose right now. However, it should be acknowledged that they're very different types of players, let alone PGs, so the comparisons aren't very straight forward. A relevant discussion went on during the UTA-ORL game the other night where Hubie Brown talked about how the NBA is filled with super-talented PGs right now, and that it's not very fair to compare them because they all fit their systems and teams.
He noted how Deron is the perfect PG for the Utah system because of his versatility on offense, his size and strength which allow him to go into the paint and set those screens which are so important to that offense, and the teammates he has around him. He then noted how Rondo is the perfect PG for BOS in that he's a great defender, rebounder, runs their offense beautifully, and makes it easier for the Big 3 to do what they do. Rondo's offensive weaknesses, which might be a problem if he were playing for other teams, are balanced out by the presence of Pierce, Ray and KG.
While I can't remember if Rose was mentioned in that discussion, it's pretty obvious that his role on the Bulls is very different from Rondo's on the Celtics. Rose is his team's primary offensive weapon and needs to score 20+ ppg for his team to succeed. He doesn't have three HoF teammates to carry the scoring load. Put Rondo in his place, and I don't think Rondo does nearly as well as he does in BOS and CHI struggles mightily. Rondo's offensive limitations would be exposed, particularly on a team with limited perimeter-scoring ability like the Bulls, as opposed to the Celtics who have Ray, Pierce and even KG who can consistently knock in shots from 20+ feet out (seriously, look at the NBA Hotspots analysis on Rondo to see how poor of a shooter he is). On the other hand, Rose would not fit the Celtics nearly as well as Rondo does, and would likely have a lot of his talents go to waste, while his limitations on defense would make him less effective than Rondo.
Bottom line, you can't look at all PGs and judge them by one set standard (i.e. their job isn't to score, it's to run the offense). Different teams run different systems that ask different things of their PGs. Fisher is a great PG for the Lakers because they run the triangle. Rondo is a great PG for the Celtics because his weaknesses are masked by the Big 3 (perimeter scoring) while his strengths are allowed to shine. Rose is a great PG for the Bulls because they need a PG who can dominate a game offensively as a scorer more than they need a distributor. Not all PGs are created equal.
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I would have never thought 4 years ago that Rondo would develop into the player he is today. Amazing improvement for someone who was never "expected" to become that good. Fantastic job by him and BOS.
DRose, CPaul, DWilliams, even Wall - are all good PGs but have a while to go to get a championship and show the leadership of Rondo running this team at both ends of the floor.
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United States4471 Posts
On November 13 2010 04:04 crazeman wrote:I doubt rondo would of made it over Gordon or Curry. Team USA was already forced to play Billups at SG and was carrying Rose and Westbrook as their PGs and both of them can't shoot. Gordon and Curry was simply a better fit than Rondo. Taking the player that fits the most as opposed to taking the best player is the new mantra for Team USA ever since coach K/colangelo took over.
Agreed. Rondo was a bad fit for Team USA because of how the team was made up and the way international ball is played (allowed to play true zone defense w/ no defensive 3 sec). Rose and Westbrook's lack of perimeter shooting ability were troublesome, but Rondo would've been a lot worse.
Rose also has better leadership. It was only a year or so ago when Danny Ainge wanted to trade Rondo away but couldn't get a decent offer. Words on the internet was that Rondo was a headcase to coach/deal with.
(I specifically recall a one possession in a playoff game, Celtics was trailing some team by 1 or 2 points and celtics have the ball with 7 seconds left. Rondo gets the inbound pass and dribble dribble dribble in place for 6 seconds and pull up for a long 2 pointer as a final shot. I can't imagine a sane coach drawing up a final play that involves Rondo making a long range shot when you have Pierce/Allen/Garnnet on your team so I'm pretty sure Rondo just hogged the ball for that possession)
Honestly if you swapped Rondo's environment (Surrounded by 3 future HoF players and a strong coach) and Rose's environment (relatively young/inexperienced team), I'm not 100% sure that Rondo would of became a star. I can see him butting heads with Vinny DelNegro constantly. Rose on the other hand, would of been a monster either way.
I don't know if I'd call it leadership, but there is definitely a difference in their demeanor and character. Rondo is a headcase, even Doc has said so on numerous occasions, and struggled with coaches and teammates early in his career. However, he is an extremely talented headcase, so it was great for everyone that he ended up playing with 3 HoF players, particularly KG, who could keep him under control. Doc is also a great players' coach, which I'm sure went a long way to helping Rondo become the player he is. Rose, on the other hand, has shown himself to be a very respectable, coachable and likeable guy who would get along with anyone. Definitely easier to build a team around a guy like that, rather than someone like Rondo.
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United States4471 Posts
On November 13 2010 04:26 citi.zen wrote:
I would have never thought 4 years ago that Rondo would develop into the player he is today. Amazing improvement for someone who was never "expected" to become that good. Fantastic job by him and BOS.
DRose, CPaul, DWilliams, even Wall - are all good PGs but have a while to go to get a championship and show the leadership of Rondo running this team at both ends of the floor.
I don't know about grouping Paul and Deron as "good PGs" who have to catch up to Rondo. I think it's pretty clear that they're both a tier above Rondo, no matter the system you put them in, and have carried their teams far into the playoffs against tough competition.
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On November 13 2010 04:29 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2010 04:26 citi.zen wrote:
I would have never thought 4 years ago that Rondo would develop into the player he is today. Amazing improvement for someone who was never "expected" to become that good. Fantastic job by him and BOS.
DRose, CPaul, DWilliams, even Wall - are all good PGs but have a while to go to get a championship and show the leadership of Rondo running this team at both ends of the floor. I don't know about grouping Paul and Deron as "good PGs" who have to catch up to Rondo. I think it's pretty clear that they're both a tier above Rondo, no matter the system you put them in, and have carried their teams far into the playoffs against tough competition.
They have the skills to be great, but in terms of their legacy still have a lot to prove I think.
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On November 13 2010 04:04 crazeman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 15:50 Holcan wrote:
lol @ coach k cutting him when it was clearly a mutual agreement as he had a relative pass away and didnt want to be away from family for such a long period. Im sure Rondo would have made it on the team over the two guards Eric Gordon and Stephan Curry, he can actually break defenses down and pressure half court better than both of them, Coach K was definitely not happy to hear that he would lose one of the best PGs he was offered, even if Rose started because of his ability to hit three ball and Chauncey was there because he gave veteran leadership. Like i said, Rondo left because he had a relative pass away, it was mutual between the camp, who were looking to get rid of a player, and rondo, who didnt want to dedicate his entire life to basketball. I doubt rondo would of made it over Gordon or Curry. Team USA was already forced to play Billups at SG and was carrying Rose and Westbrook as their PGs and both of them can't shoot. Gordon and Curry was simply a better fit than Rondo. Taking the player that fits the most as opposed to taking the best player is the new mantra for Team USA ever since coach K/colangelo took over. Show nested quote +Actually Rose's only advantage over Rondo is scoring. Passing, all aspects of defense, rebounding, playoff performance, leadership, cross match-up problems - Rondo has him beat by far. Rose has high potential but hasn't put it all together yet. Rose also has better leadership. It was only a year or so ago when Danny Ainge wanted to trade Rondo away but couldn't get a decent offer. Words on the internet was that Rondo was a headcase to coach/deal with. (I specifically recall a one possession in a playoff game, Celtics was trailing some team by 1 or 2 points and celtics have the ball with 7 seconds left. Rondo gets the inbound pass and dribble dribble dribble in place for 6 seconds and pull up for a long 2 pointer as a final shot. I can't imagine a sane coach drawing up a final play that involves Rondo making a long range shot when you have Pierce/Allen/Garnnet on your team so I'm pretty sure Rondo just hogged the ball for that possession) Honestly if you swapped Rondo's environment (Surrounded by 3 future HoF players and a strong coach) and Rose's environment (relatively young/inexperienced team), I'm not 100% sure that Rondo would of became a star. I can see him butting heads with Vinny DelNegro constantly. Rose on the other hand, would of been a monster either way.
Believe what you want, but its a known that they were on the chopping block, and after Rondo didnt get to play a minute in an exhibition game he decided to leave the camp on his own. Like i said, he wasnt cut as much as he removed himself to focus on something outside of basketball. Also what you are saying doesnt make sense, he is hard to work with, and not an elite PG, but he recently got a 55 million 5 year deal from Danny Ainge. Rondo is good because he is willing to do dirty work, and still be a efficient player, if you dont think that these aspects would come out on another championship team, or even easier on a team with lesser talent making it easier for him to shine ?(cough* john wall uncough*)
Its sad that people rate you by where you were drafted, instead of looking at the work you've put in after you're drafted, because i can almost guarantee that Rondo works harder than his entire draft class, but heaven forbid someone exceed expectations, heaven forbid that he has taken criticism from 2008 about his ability to lead a team, and even after proving it to people for 3 years, people are still like "nah, he is lucky to have a KG without lift, a Ray Allen that missed a 13 shots in a row last year during the finals, and a paul pierce who doesnt rely on rondo for any offensive production at all", is it just me, or do people not realize that he makes big baby better, he makes ray allen hit shots by giving the ball to him in correct locations, he makes KG good by giving him entry passes that allow him to exploit his opponent, he makes shaq good by being able to put the ball on his hands, he makes pierce good by his ability to scrape for offensive rebounds, and provide half court pressure, after paul creates his own shot.
Switched or not, Rondo is a winner, thats why he is willing to take those shots, because he knows that he needs to take those shots. Thats what winners do, they provide for you whatever you need to win, this is what Rondo does, hate him for not scoring 30 like Rose if you want, Rondo doesnt care, Rondo fans dont care, we know what he does, and we know itll transcend to any location. We should be comparing him to Chauncey Billups, as he a true winning PG who plays smart.
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The 5-4 Heat are still ahead of the 8-1 Lakers and 7-0 Hornets in Hollinger's rankings on ESPN.
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United States4471 Posts
On November 13 2010 04:42 Holcan wrote:Believe what you want, but its a known that they were on the chopping block, and after Rondo didnt get to play a minute in an exhibition game he decided to leave the camp on his own. Like i said, he wasnt cut as much as he removed himself to focus on something outside of basketball. Also what you are saying doesnt make sense, he is hard to work with, and not an elite PG, but he recently got a 55 million 5 year deal from Danny Ainge. Rondo is good because he is willing to do dirty work, and still be a efficient player, if you dont think that these aspects would come out on another championship team, or even easier on a team with lesser talent making it easier for him to shine ?(cough* john wall uncough*)
It's also known that Rondo was on the chopping block for a while as well as everyone knew his game would likely not transfer well to international play. Rondo was a suspect to be cut for a long while because of his inability to shoot, as we've learned long ago that our teams have to be able to score from the perimeter in international basketball. While he may not have been "cut", it wasn't like the only reason he didn't make the team was because of his own choice. It's not a slight against Rondo either, just a fact that his game didn't fit what Team USA needed from its PGs.
The fact that Rondo got a large contract doesn't show that he's not hard to work with or that he's elite, it just shows how important he is to the Celtics. Joe Johnson got a ridiculous contract even larger than Rondo's this past offseason, does that establish that he's an elite player that's better than Rondo?
Rondo is indeed very valuable because of his willingness to scrap and do the dirty work, and he is pretty efficient from the field (FTs meh....) and in terms of AST/TO ratio. But the fact remains that he is a TERRIBLE shooter from the perimeter, which is absolutely a huge problem for a PG. He is literally a non-threat unless he's shooting a layup, which is ridiculous for an NBA-level PG, let alone an elite one. You'll recall that there were times during the playoffs where he was completely ignored by opposing defenses, which resulted in Boston's offense struggling. His fear of going to the FT line (a well-founded fear) also hurt his aggressiveness, which has also negatively impacted Boston in many situations. Rondo still remains a great, elite-level PG because he excels in rebounding, defense and running the Celtics' offense, but you can't just ignore such a major detriment to his game which is masked by his current teammates and would be a big problem on many other teams.
Its sad that people rate you by where you were drafted, instead of looking at the work you've put in after you're drafted, because i can almost guarantee that Rondo works harder than his entire draft class, but heaven forbid someone exceed expectations, heaven forbid that he has taken criticism from 2008 about his ability to lead a team, and even after proving it to people for 3 years, people are still like "nah, he is lucky to have a KG without lift, a Ray Allen that missed a 13 shots in a row last year during the finals, and a paul pierce who doesnt rely on rondo for any offensive production at all", is it just me, or do people not realize that he makes big baby better, he makes ray allen hit shots by giving the ball to him in correct locations, he makes KG good by giving him entry passes that allow him to exploit his opponent, he makes shaq good by being able to put the ball on his hands, he makes pierce good by his ability to scrape for offensive rebounds, and provide half court pressure, after paul creates his own shot.
I don't think Rondo's draft position has been mentioned in assessing his value as a player, or even in comparison to Rose, so I'll treat that as a non-issue.
I don't think anyone has denied that Rondo contributes a lot to the Celtics' success, and that he is vital to what they do. What some people have done is point to some of the circumstances that have allowed him to thrive in Boston, and to point out that those circumstances have to be looked out when comparing him to other players. Also, the references to Rondo's headcase nature don't come from nowhere, it's well-documented and has been mentioned even by his supporters. The fact that he's managed to get past that and perform so well at a high level is to be applauded, but it doesn't mean that we should just pretend that he's easy to get along with and highly coachable.
Switched or not, Rondo is a winner, thats why he is willing to take those shots, because he knows that he needs to take those shots. Thats what winners do, they provide for you whatever you need to win, this is what Rondo does, hate him for not scoring 30 like Rose if you want, Rondo doesnt care, Rondo fans dont care, we know what he does, and we know itll transcend to any location. We should be comparing him to Chauncey Billups, as he a true winning PG who plays smart.
I'm not sure what shots you're referring to that Rondo is taking. By and large, the Celtics do not rely on Rondo to take important shots because he's not good at shooting the ball. In crunch time, the ball usually ends up in the hands of the Big 3 for a reason, and Rondo's job is to get it to them. Is that role important? Most definitely. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Rondo is something that he isn't, i.e. a scorer.
As to whether Rondo's game would "transcend to any location", I guess that remains to be seen. Personally, if his game stays as it is now and he doesn't improve his ability to shoot the ball, I think Rondo will have to be put in specific circumstances to play at his current level. Being a PG who can't score outside of the paint is a problem that many teams aren't equipped to deal with. Even some of the PGs who are considered poor shooters are significantly better than Rondo from both the perimeter and the FT line, i.e. Rose, Westbrook, Andre Miller and Devin Harris. I think Rondo would struggle if he were on a team with limited perimeter scoring, or scoring ability in general, because he simply struggles to put points on the board and keep defenses honest, both of which hurt his team's offense. As it stands, he's a bit of a specialist, albeit one of the best in the league.
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EPT
