EPTI mean it's almost by definition; Diablo 3 just re-treads almost all the same locations as Diablo 2 without really offering anything new to be iconic on its own. So anytime you remember something from Diablo 3 you just immediately remember what that location was like in Diablo 2.
Diablo III General Discussion - Page 1098
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I mean it's almost by definition; Diablo 3 just re-treads almost all the same locations as Diablo 2 without really offering anything new to be iconic on its own. So anytime you remember something from Diablo 3 you just immediately remember what that location was like in Diablo 2. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On November 06 2018 05:38 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: I get the feeling this is Blizzard attempt at trying to sweep every under the rug. By leaking it to the one person that cheers the industry regardless of what they do. https://kotaku.com/sources-blizzard-pulled-diablo-4-announcement-from-bli-1830232246/amp?__twitter_impression=true None of said story makes any sense. If the leak is true, Blizzard has no idea what they want D4 to be at this point (two different iterations under two different leads in four years, a la Titan). Not sure that's a great sign. I wonder if somebody's actually entertaining the idea of resurrecting the real money auction house... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 06 2018 07:10 TheTenthDoc wrote: If the leak is true, Blizzard has no idea what they want D4 to be at this point (two different iterations under two different leads in four years, a la Titan). Not sure that's a great sign. I wonder if somebody's actually entertaining the idea of resurrecting the real money auction house... No way. They can see the nightmare reality that is Valve centered gambling sites and then remember they are a publicly traded company that can’t be caught up in some weird money laundering nightmare. They are never going to try that. On November 06 2018 07:07 Logo wrote: There's also the environmental storytelling which has gotten a lot worse over time I think, or at least not better on pace with the rest of the industry; though it's obviously hard to disentangle nostalgia from it all. A lot of the Diablo and Diablo 2 locations feel particularly iconic in a way that none of the locations in Diablo 3 do. Honestly I can remember a lot of Diablo 2's locations, but I'd struggle to really remember much that's compelling from Diablo 3. Even a big set-piece like environment like Arreat v2 was really undermined by the constant in your face bad writing of Azmodan. I mean it's almost by definition; Diablo 3 just re-treads almost all the same locations as Diablo 2 without really offering anything new to be iconic on its own. So anytime you remember something from Diablo 3 you just immediately remember what that location was like in Diablo 2. I feel like Diablo 3 and SC2 were victims of Blizzard emerging from half a decade doing only WoW. They existed in some design state since D2 and WC3 were created, but were in development for quite a while without much exposure to the light of day. Both games feel like they are chasing what they think people want, rather than spending the time figuring out what people really like about D2 and BW. If they were just a normal studio with shorter development cycles and didn't have WoW, both those games could have been very different at launch. But D3 worked out in the end, even if that story is hyper trash. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
Sure the presentation was awful even with the curbed expectations but Blizzard literally let people know that they weren't going to announce Diablo 4 even though they kept reiterating the fact that they're working on it in a not so subtle way. There are also decent about of credibility that the dev's approached close friends and content producers to their relatively small community for feedback about what they want in a new Diablo. If people are upset with the way they announced Immortal as the closing headliner in their opening ceremony I'm sure even Blizzard would agree that what they did was really dumb. I get the impression that at this point, it isn't even worth the time to invest in new content for D3 given the fact that they're probably ramping up production on 4 but sometimes when i'm glossing over fan reaction as hilarious as I think it is, there are some people that genuinely think Diablo 4 isn't happening. I'm probably the outlier when it comes to ARPGS but I don't like PoE even though I respect it. I think the arcady feel of Diablo 3 is much better than PoE that PoE doesn't even hold a candle to how D3 feels and I could definitely be the only person in the world that thinks this because even outspoken D3 content creators prefer PoE over it. My biggest critique with Diablo 3 is that it feels like the game lacks character and class depth, some mixed opinions on progressing high end Grifts than I would have actually thought D3 would have been near perfect otherwise. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
Like the guy asking the question from the famous 'don't you guys have phones' booing clip. He's not enraged, but he is just sad that he's seeing features in this mobile game that would have been great in the actual PC game. So for them to choose not putting it in the PC game but in the android game, that's just a saddening realisation of where their priorities are. This new story content in Immortal could just as well have been a D3 expansion, especially when they are using all the same assets anyway. And then there's the separate, legitimate issue of not understanding why Blizzard thought this announcement was a good idea. This game should have been a small stand at gamescon. Not a big thing for those who love diablo as they said it was. Its like they don't understand the core fanbase. Or alternatively, maybe they do understand but care more about a wide audience of casual mobile gamers. Both are legitimate things to be disappointed about if you are a longterm fan of their games. You cant say D4 is coming for sure... If it was they could have announced it. For all we know D4 might be on android too when it finally comes. D3 was already catered to consoles over PC, why not go a step further with D4? Nobody knows. | ||
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Archeon
3272 Posts
@Diablo 3 vs PoE: I can understand ppl preferring d3 over PoE, D3 is really easy to get into, you can't really go wrong and gameplay and design are just fun. PoE is basically d2 in overcharged, it's oversized, grindy and will make you start the same character multiple times because there's no way you are getting anything right in the first playthrough. It's also complex and satisfying. @story-telling: I liked what they did in wc2, although they mostly fleshed it out in handbooks etc. I really liked the wc3 stories. The sc1 story hasn't aged well, but I could see why people liked it. Diablo 2 does some brilliant things to achieve the general atmosphere and feeling it wants to convey, even more so once you get all the details. For me still a milestone in grimdark game-storytelling, Grimdawn should have made notes. Diablo 3 and Sc2 on the other hand have brilliant optic, but shitty execution. There are so often bad dialogues and really dumb decisions just to get a more dramatic moment (people imprisoning Jimmy with a gun f.e.). And once the moment passes all the details they did wrong get so obvious. Maybe it wasn't like that in the old days because their ability to execute was limited, maybe they assumed that people will get by themselves what's happening or suspension of disbelieve was easier for me, but Sc2 and D3 are terribly sloppy at times. D3 at least has a decent albeit predictable overall story arc, but Sc2 was at times just terrible (pretty much every single Kerrigan decision in HotS f.e.). | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4447 Posts
Just saddened that they cancelled warcraft adventures and SC Ghost because they said they weren’t up to par.But i thought they had real potential.For them to release a mobile game that polygon and kotaku played and reviewed poorly just leaves a bitter taste. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17843 Posts
On November 06 2018 07:27 Kuroeeah wrote: I'm probably the outlier when it comes to ARPGS but I don't like PoE even though I respect it. I think the arcady feel of Diablo 3 is much better than PoE that PoE doesn't even hold a candle to how D3 feels and I could definitely be the only person in the world that thinks this because even outspoken D3 content creators prefer PoE over it. My biggest critique with Diablo 3 is that it feels like the game lacks character and class depth, some mixed opinions on progressing high end Grifts than I would have actually thought D3 would have been near perfect otherwise. You're not alone here. I think that PoE has great atmosphere, environments etc. but I just can't get through their gameplay mechanics. Super huge talent tree could be OK, but most of it are just stat improvements - instead of that you could simply let people advance their stats separately and make some talents have stat requirements. Much easier and more versatile. I also absolutely hate the skills as gems you put in the equipment. Basically, all the classes have the same talent tree and access to mostly the same skills. I really liked the distinct feel of each class in Diablo 2. Diablo 3 went the opposite way in dumbing it down a bit too much (like the atrocious idea that there is only one stat that matters for your class and it's the only thing you look for in gear). The biggest problem with Diablo series was that for a very long time it basically didn't have any competition (and without competition there can be no improvement). The only titles that come to mind that could potentially rival them are: Titan Quest, Grim Dawn and Path of Exile. That's pretty much it. There were some attempts at a bit brighter approach with Darkstone and Torchlight series but I considered them a passing novelty, not a serious contender. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8320 Posts
On November 06 2018 07:07 Logo wrote: There's also the environmental storytelling which has gotten a lot worse over time I think, or at least not better on pace with the rest of the industry; though it's obviously hard to disentangle nostalgia from it all. A lot of the Diablo and Diablo 2 locations feel particularly iconic in a way that none of the locations in Diablo 3 do. Honestly I can remember a lot of Diablo 2's locations, but I'd struggle to really remember much that's compelling from Diablo 3. Even a big set-piece like environment like Arreat v2 was really undermined by the constant in your face bad writing of Azmodan. I mean it's almost by definition; Diablo 3 just re-treads almost all the same locations as Diablo 2 without really offering anything new to be iconic on its own. So anytime you remember something from Diablo 3 you just immediately remember what that location was like in Diablo 2. Not only that, but D2 absolutely nails the "show, don't tell" idea of establishing setting whereas D3 is the exact opposite. Act 2 especially, you understand more and more of the world around you as you journey through it, to the point where they can throw a curve ball at you: LOOKING FOR BAAL? And you actually understand it! D3 just gives you piece after piece of audio to listen to. The first little bit of it is okay, but by the 5th crusaders story chapter you're kinda tired of it, especially as that's your only interaction with that story element. By contrast, in D2, you learn about the Horadrim by rescuing Cain. You get to appreciate the wisdom of Cain, as gimicky as this is, by getting him to identify items. It's gimicky, but it works. You get to appreciate the Horadrim's immense power, now lost to the sands of time, by finding the Horadric Cube and then using it throughout the game. Because you're such an active role in that, it makes it a fun part of the story to learn. Conversely, in D3, it's all "telling". As you said, a particularly egregious example of this is Azmodan being all "YOU'RE EFFORTS ARE FUTILE". Frankly, what would have made that whole act way more epic is if Azmodan just kicks the everloving shit out of you when you first appear, in-game, so your health starts dropping and you're like jesus-fuck what is this?! and then you get rescued by the Barbarians and work your way towards being able to actually go toe-to-toe with him, culminating in the final battle with him. Same with Belial, as many have said before. Instead of him actually tricking us, we just are told over and over again that he's a deceiver. So then we come across the prince randomly in the sewers and it's like gosh I wonder who that could be... Many in the past have suggested ways he could actually trick us and then we get to experience the deception. Like, we "kill" him and then it turns out it wasn't him, it was actually the prince! We just murdered the king of Lut Gholein (or whatever it was called in D3, I forget). So you're definitely on to something there in my opinion. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
next ladder start for D2 should be december 15, unfortunately bots quickly overrun and flood the economy with overpowered items within a few weeks usually, i think nobody is banning bot accounts these days but, it's always a pleasure to play D2 again for a while when a ladder season starts, the game has a lot of quality. Mostly wish best items weren't so powerful, and some more viable builds, etc (totally agree what u said about D3 storytelling.. it doesn't compare, I never cared to revisit it :/ same with stats itemization char customization etc) for some reason i never tried PoE yet, i looked at videos, game seems good | ||
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blunderfulguy
United States1415 Posts
On November 06 2018 08:44 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I feel like people are confusing some enraged people on social media that are mad, with the much larger fanbase that is sad/disappointed. There always gonna be people saying dumb shit no matter what, theres no real outrage, just a loss of faith in Blizzards priorities, and disappointment about not getting a PC game many people would like. Thats a perfectly fine emotion to have. Like the guy asking the question from the famous 'don't you guys have phones' booing clip. He's not enraged, but he is just sad that he's seeing features in this mobile game that would have been great in the actual PC game. So for them to choose not putting it in the PC game but in the android game, that's just a saddening realisation of where their priorities are. This new story content in Immortal could just as well have been a D3 expansion, especially when they are using all the same assets anyway. And then there's the separate, legitimate issue of not understanding why Blizzard thought this announcement was a good idea. This game should have been a small stand at gamescon. Not a big thing for those who love diablo as they said it was. Its like they don't understand the core fanbase. Or alternatively, maybe they do understand but care more about a wide audience of casual mobile gamers. Both are legitimate things to be disappointed about if you are a longterm fan of their games. You cant say D4 is coming for sure... If it was they could have announced it. For all we know D4 might be on android too when it finally comes. D3 was already catered to consoles over PC, why not go a step further with D4? Nobody knows. I was thinking of saying a bunch of this stuff reading through the last couple pages I missed, beat me to it. Only thing I disagree with is the last bit about D3 being catered to consoles over PC. Maybe my memory of it has faded, but I very much remember them being set on making a great PC hack-n-slash with loot explosions first and foremost and talking here and there about how they really wanted to see it adapted to couch co-op after it was finished — ofc as someone who grew up playing Dark Alliance with a couple of friends, I was all for that. Anyhow. Something about them being adamant that Immortal will not be coming to PC set in this feeling that NetEase really is squeezing the game out of their mobile ARPG cookie cutter/sausage grinder. If it were really built from the ground up to be a great Diablo experience, and Blizzard really does have cooks working in the kitchen, then in my eyes there should be no reason for them to act like it's impossible for it to come to PC. If it were built from the ground up, then when a massive amount of your community or even one dude in a Q&A panel asks "hey what about bringing it to PC?" the answer should be "cool, we'll think about that." -- I wanted to write up some of why I disagree with a lot of opinions on D2 and D3 stories, storytelling, all that, no time so I'll just say that I strongly feel a lot of them are what they are because so many D2 players were young or inexperienced and it left an impression not only because of the design of the game and other nebulous qualities, but also because of when the game became a part of D2 players' lives. Early teachers, parents, friends, and games leave extremely deep impressions on young people, especially with games and imaginative kids, and a lot of the opinions I see are, how do I put it, rose-colored to a large degree or to an extreme. It's a huge bias that makes one in favor of that early experience and against that new experience. One comparison that shows this is when people compare D2's Butcher to D3's Butcher. There are so many incredibly cool aspects of D3's Butcher but whenever it's a D2 fan, in my experience, they are always almost entirely incapable of seeing anything other than "this is not the D2 Butcher" which made them feel a very specific way as a kid, a way that I feel would be a complete waste of time to attempt the impossible by trying to recreate. Likewise with the "D3 doesn't have anything unique, it's just stuff from D2" from the pov of a D2 fan, the argument/opinion usually ignores so much of D3; or worse to me the "nothing is recognizable/memorable in D3, in D2 everything is so recognizable/memorable" which is something you can look at very objectively. A lot of the D2 fans that I see seem to have trouble of taking an objective or slightly less biased look when making arguments for one style or set of designs over the other. D2 is great in a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons and it does a lot of things that are wanted and needed in ARPGs, D3 does so many things so well that are also wanted and needed in ARPGs. Opinions and feelings about D2 aren't invalid, but a lot of arguments I see being made (not just here, I mean in general) don't go deep into the hows and whys of why they feel a certain way about one or the other and/or don't give an honest and open-minded look at the other side of things. I guess it's food for thought or sth from a fan of D2 and D3 and BW and SC2 who is tired of that sort of "B is worse than A because it isn't A" kind of argument or mentality and whatnot, especially the last few weeks and now after the news and all the discussions being resparked afterward. Short blurb about PoE I guess: + Show Spoiler + I thought about adding PoE into the mix but after playing I can't get over how it feels so much worse than D3 and also feels so much like its designed to be an addiction engine, so... yeah idk what else to say about that other than I really wish I enjoyed playing it so I could have another modern ARPG but I just don't. Something something biases? *Holy wall of text, Batman... | ||
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Lugh
36 Posts
On November 06 2018 13:25 blunderfulguy wrote: I wanted to write up some of why I disagree with a lot of opinions on D2 and D3 stories, storytelling, all that, no time so I'll just say that I strongly feel a lot of them are what they are because so many D2 players were young or inexperienced and it left an impression not only because of the design of the game and other nebulous qualities, but also because of when the game became a part of D2 players' lives. Early teachers, parents, friends, and games leave extremely deep impressions on young people, especially with games and imaginative kids, and a lot of the opinions I see are, how do I put it, rose-colored to a large degree or to an extreme. It's a huge bias that makes one in favor of that early experience and against that new experience. One comparison that shows this is when people compare D2's Butcher to D3's Butcher. There are so many incredibly cool aspects of D3's Butcher but whenever it's a D2 fan, in my experience, they are always almost entirely incapable of seeing anything other than "this is not the D2 Butcher" which made them feel a very specific way as a kid, a way that I feel would be a complete waste of time to attempt the impossible by trying to recreate. Likewise with the "D3 doesn't have anything unique, it's just stuff from D2" from the pov of a D2 fan, the argument/opinion usually ignores so much of D3; or worse to me the "nothing is recognizable/memorable in D3, in D2 everything is so recognizable/memorable" which is something you can look at very objectively. A lot of the D2 fans that I see seem to have trouble of taking an objective or slightly less biased look when making arguments for one style or set of designs over the other. D2 is great in a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons and it does a lot of things that are wanted and needed in ARPGs, D3 does so many things so well that are also wanted and needed in ARPGs. Opinions and feelings about D2 aren't invalid, but a lot of arguments I see being made (not just here, I mean in general) don't go deep into the hows and whys of why they feel a certain way about one or the other and/or don't give an honest and open-minded look at the other side of things. I can't agree with you there. I didn't even remember D3 had a Butcher. But I still remember Meeting D2 Butcher for the first time and trying to run away while he killed me. In regards to worldbuilding and storytelling at least for me D3 is far away from games like D2 or Grim Dawn to give a more recent example. | ||
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spelhus
Germany52 Posts
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On November 06 2018 15:28 Lugh wrote: I can't agree with you there. I didn't even remember D3 had a Butcher. But I still remember Meeting D2 Butcher for the first time and trying to run away while he killed me. In regards to worldbuilding and storytelling at least for me D3 is far away from games like D2 or Grim Dawn to give a more recent example. Really ? Where did you find him ? I played D2 for 10+ years, still haven't met him. And Grim Dawn is just bad. Can't hold a candle to any of the Diablos and PoE. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8320 Posts
On November 06 2018 16:44 Pr0wler wrote: Really ? Where did you find him ? I played D2 for 10+ years, still haven't met him. And Grim Dawn is just bad. Can't hold a candle to any of the Diablos and PoE. That's well played. (He probably means The Smith). I wanted to write up some of why I disagree with a lot of opinions on D2 and D3 stories, storytelling, all that, no time so I'll just say that I strongly feel a lot of them are what they are because so many D2 players were young or inexperienced and it left an impression not only because of the design of the game and other nebulous qualities, but also because of when the game became a part of D2 players' lives. Early teachers, parents, friends, and games leave extremely deep impressions on young people, especially with games and imaginative kids, and a lot of the opinions I see are, how do I put it, rose-colored to a large degree or to an extreme. It's a huge bias that makes one in favor of that early experience and against that new experience. One comparison that shows this is when people compare D2's Butcher to D3's Butcher. There are so many incredibly cool aspects of D3's Butcher but whenever it's a D2 fan, in my experience, they are always almost entirely incapable of seeing anything other than "this is not the D2 Butcher" which made them feel a very specific way as a kid, a way that I feel would be a complete waste of time to attempt the impossible by trying to recreate. Likewise with the "D3 doesn't have anything unique, it's just stuff from D2" from the pov of a D2 fan, the argument/opinion usually ignores so much of D3; or worse to me the "nothing is recognizable/memorable in D3, in D2 everything is so recognizable/memorable" which is something you can look at very objectively. A lot of the D2 fans that I see seem to have trouble of taking an objective or slightly less biased look when making arguments for one style or set of designs over the other. D2 is great in a lot of ways and for a lot of reasons and it does a lot of things that are wanted and needed in ARPGs, D3 does so many things so well that are also wanted and needed in ARPGs. Opinions and feelings about D2 aren't invalid, but a lot of arguments I see being made (not just here, I mean in general) don't go deep into the hows and whys of why they feel a certain way about one or the other and/or don't give an honest and open-minded look at the other side of things. I guess it's food for thought or sth from a fan of D2 and D3 and BW and SC2 who is tired of that sort of "B is worse than A because it isn't A" kind of argument or mentality and whatnot, especially the last few weeks and now after the news and all the discussions being resparked afterward. Could you respond to my post above in terms of D3 being more "tell" and D2 being more "show"? I felt like I made a decent argument there. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17843 Posts
I mean, just listen to the music from my favorite part: Also, when you find this quest for the first time... | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On November 06 2018 13:25 blunderfulguy wrote: I was thinking of saying a bunch of this stuff reading through the last couple pages I missed, beat me to it. Only thing I disagree with is the last bit about D3 being catered to consoles over PC. Maybe my memory of it has faded, but I very much remember them being set on making a great PC hack-n-slash with loot explosions first and foremost and talking here and there about how they really wanted to see it adapted to couch co-op after it was finished — ofc as someone who grew up playing Dark Alliance with a couple of friends, I was all for that. Your are right maybe I stated it too strongly, D3 was a very good working PC game but things like the 6 skill limit is a to me clearly a choice made for controllers, and the relative low resolution textures the game has seems like a choice for the low video memory of the ps3 and 360. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7388 Posts
On November 06 2018 17:37 TheDougler wrote: That's well played. (He probably means The Smith). Could you respond to my post above in terms of D3 being more "tell" and D2 being more "show"? I felt like I made a decent argument there. Pretty sure he meant the D1 Butcher. That moment when you first heard "FRESH MEAT" and you just start running for your life #neverforget | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22562 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17792 Posts
On November 06 2018 18:14 Manit0u wrote: D1 was the best Diablo game. It was simple but effective. And had in my opinion the best sound and level design of them all. i wonder if there are some 50+ year olds out there who sincerely believe that stuff like Zork, Lords of Karma, and Treasures of Tarmin have better level design than Diablo 1. On November 06 2018 18:14 Manit0u wrote: Also, when you find this quest for the first time... did Zork and Lords of Karma require deeper creativity to crack their deepest mysteries ? On November 06 2018 05:05 Plansix wrote: Blizzard literally told people they didn’t have any big announcements for Diablo weeks before the show. All of this really sounds like people backfilling a justification for being outraged about a mobile game. We all know they are making Diablo 4. It is real. Its happening. They don’t need to tell us it is happening. Blizzard also made a Diablo-for-Mobile April Fool's joke in 2014. So the most over-the-line questioner had a legit point. Every one of the on-stage presenters had a chance to turn his joke into a hilariously funny moment by bringing up that 2014 bit of Blizzard comedy. None of them did. Their focus was not on Blizzard's history and its long time customers. Their focus was on pushing product with the comment "dont you guys own phones". Blizzard and the guys on stage failed miserably with the PR aspect of this announcement. They should've announced this game someplace other than a PC-Gaming show like they did with Hearthstone. People were there to play PC games; this was evident in the low turnout in the Diablo mobile gaming stations. Blizzard of all people should've realized this. Did they announce Diablo for Switch at BlizzCon last year? uhh no. | ||
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