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On December 19 2009 01:14 Ikari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 01:05 citi.zen wrote: I am curious: what are the downsides you guys are seeing to 9. Qd2? + Show Spoiler +If we 9. Qd2
I'm thinking...
9...f4 10. Bxf4 Bxd4 11. Bxh6 Bxf2+
Defeats the purpose of trying to castle queenside.
If we do go with Qd2, we should resolve the concern above.
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On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2009 07:25 Athos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3. Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here. This is not entirely true. After f4 Nxc6, black does not have to take back, because fxe3 captures a pawn and attacks white's queen. After white responds, bxc6 and black has just won a piece.
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I don't mind playing vs TL for chess match 3 btw if no one else is in line. I won the Canadian youth championships twice for my respective age group so hopefully I can give you guys a good game although I'm rusty.
http://www.chess.ca/cycc.htm
+ Show Spoiler +He said after castling. The queen isn't on d2 after castling. Also lightman is bluffing about some devastating attack ^^ exf5 or nxc6 were stronger.
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+ Show Spoiler + A)
9. f3 fxe4
a1) 10. fxe4 Qb6 : attacking both the Knight on d4 and the pawn on b2 11. Ncb5 : only way to block both threats (The d4 knight can't move because the f pawn that was protecting the e3 bishop is gone) 11. ... Nxd4 12. Bxd4 Nxd4 13. Nxd4 Qxb2 and white has lost a pawn.
a2) 10. Nxe4 Nf5 : centralizes the knight and attacks d4 yet again. 11. Nxf5 : The f5 knight is too powerful. The only pawn that can kick it out is g pawn, which would leave white's kingside weak. 11. ... Rxf5 : and white has lost some central control. The g7 bishop will be a pain to deal with, and black's game is fine, if not good. 12. Qd2 Qa5 (Qc2 Qa5+ gives forces white to pull back one of his minor pieces, and gives Black free tempi) 13. Qxa5 Nxa5 and white's attacking potential has fizzled out. The b2 pawn is under attack, so ugly defending moves like Bc1 or Rb1 come to mind. 0-0-0 protects the pawn and allows white to use the kingside pawns to attack black, but the g7 bishop once again is too powerful and black's game is fine.
f3 also answers the threat of 9. ... f4 because white does not have to take the pawn on f4, but can retreat to f2. If this happens, then the Knight looks useless on h6 and will most likely move to e5 via f7 in order to give it some activity.
B)
9. Qd2.
Qd2 has been discussed already, and it seems like black's best response is f4. In the previous line I analyzed, f4 is ok for white because after Bxh6, black's king is stuck in the center and white has good compensation for his returned pawn. However, after 0-0, black's king is safe and he has the f file immediately for his use. So Qd2 is probably a mistake now.
C)
If it were black's turn, f4 would be good for him. 0-0 does not change this.
9. 0-0 f4 10. Nxd4 Nxd4 : forced, any bishop move hangs the d4 knight. 11. bxc6 Bd4 : blocking the g7 bishop's control of the diagonal. After this, black looks good to me, black has a strong central pawn structure, and can park his knight on the e5 square where it cannot be attacked by enemy pawns. If Qd5+ e5, black has an imposing center and white's game is cramped. White has no play for his rooks, and has a bad bishop. Black has the b file, and his mobility will allow him to dictate the game, perhaps with a kingside pawn storm after his king moves into his safe center.
If instead
9. ... Ng4, then after 10. Bxg4 fxg4 11. Qd2 and black comes out of the opening with a good bishop with nice targets on e4 and c4.
If 0-0 I think black comes out well. White will probably have to make a sacrifice to open up some lines if he wants to generate some activity.
Looking at these three lines, I think f3 counters black's threats of Ng4 and f4 most effectively. Thoughts?
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On December 19 2009 08:07 Incognito wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2009 07:25 Athos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3. Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here. This is not entirely true. After f4 Nxc6, black does not have to take back, because fxe3 captures a pawn and attacks white's queen. After white responds, bxc6 and black has just won a piece.
+ Show Spoiler +I'm not sure we're on the same page here, if we castle our queen is never in danger. I can't see what could possibly threaten our queen after Nxc6.
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On December 19 2009 07:25 Athos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3. Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
+ Show Spoiler +I think that after we play Bc1 after exchanging on c6 we run into Bxc3 followed by Qa5
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On December 19 2009 11:44 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 07:25 Athos wrote:On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3. Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here. + Show Spoiler +I think that after we play Bc1 after exchanging on c6 we run into Bxc3 followed by Qa5 + Show Spoiler +Um, I was thinking Bd2 in my line.
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I vote 9. f2-f3 (im not in the team but really am enjoying this ) )
+ Show Spoiler + This will give f2 spot for the bishop on e3, so you dont have to worry about 9...f4. Which will deny the forced exchange of knights at "c6". g4 sqware will not be offered for the black knight on h6, so the knight will be almost blocked. in my opinion Black is in bad position after f2-f3 , his knight on h6 will be misplaced, his bishop on c8 is bloced, and his other bishop can't really leave a1-h8 diagonal, so White would prob. get large lead through the midgame. If 9. Qd2 then 9... Ng4 and exchange the knight for one of white's bishops (since Bg5 look really stupid for me). Wich is good for black since the knight is in bad placement on h6 really hope someone read this 
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On December 19 2009 11:33 Athos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 08:07 Incognito wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 19 2009 07:25 Athos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3. Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here. This is not entirely true. After f4 Nxc6, black does not have to take back, because fxe3 captures a pawn and attacks white's queen. After white responds, bxc6 and black has just won a piece. + Show Spoiler +I'm not sure we're on the same page here, if we castle our queen is never in danger. I can't see what could possibly threaten our queen after Nxc6. + Show Spoiler + After Nxc6, Black does not have to take back the knight. He can play fxe3 instead (there is a bishop on e3). There is also a Q on d2 in this scenario, so the pawn would be attacking it. After the queen moves, bxc6 and we're down a piece.
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I believe Athos is addressing the issue with Soda's initial analysis of 9. 0-0 vs 9. f3, while you (Incognito) are addressing 9. Qd2, which I had already posted an unaddressed issue on at the top of the page in one of the quoted spoilers.
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I am annoyed. Not only has my analysis been misinterpreted, but I get bogus counter analysis thrown back at me.
9.0-0 f4 DOES NOT WIN A PIECE.
10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Bd4 Bxd4 12.Qxd4 with a noticable edge for white...thats not difficult to find...
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Sanya12364 Posts
Vote 9. Qd2
I can't seem to see why we played Nc3 but I haven't been paying much attention.
+ Show Spoiler +Seems like black is behind on development. Perhaps we can open up the position with exf5 even now to exploit the difference and force black to defend. O-O is more solid play.
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On December 19 2009 18:11 Ikari wrote: I believe Athos is addressing the issue with Soda's initial analysis of 9. 0-0 vs 9. f3, while you (Incognito) are addressing 9. Qd2, which I had already posted an unaddressed issue on at the top of the page in one of the quoted spoilers.
bleh oops ok my bad. Qd2 is bad then.
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After second thought Ng4 is probably not such a good move for black. I vote 9. 0-0.
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voting 9. Qd2
+ Show Spoiler + 9. f3 looks weak cause of 9..fxe4 10. Nxc6 dxc6 11 Qxd8 Rxd8 12 fxe4 Ng4, black w edge
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So for all of you guys voting 9. Qd2, how would we respond after 9...f4?
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If it's between O-O and Qd2, I'll vote O-O.
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On December 20 2009 05:02 Ikari wrote: So for all of you guys voting 9. Qd2, how would we respond after 9...f4?
+ Show Spoiler +
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