> I'm playing with BLACK pieces. > You have 24 hours to vote for each of your moves. > I'll update my move 24 hours after voting closes. > You are voting by posting in this thread "I vote... /move/". > Please use Long Algebraic notation to avoid confusion. > Voting always closes at 11 PM EST (GMT - 5) > I'll count the votes immediately after deadline. > Members who'll be late WON'T be taken in account. > After counting votes, I'll publish info, as follows: - Voting results. - Current position. - Last move played. - Updated list of moves. - Exact time of next deadline. > No chess engines or outside help, please.
If you have an idea what else might be put here, feel free to suggest it!
5) IMPORTANT UPDATE:
From time to time I won't be able to submit my move exactly at 11.00 EST / 4:00 AM GMT. On that occasion, I'll do it earlier. This won't have any impact on your voting deadline: you'll just have more time to ponder and discuss. I'll accept all votes from the moment I posted my move till your voting closes. I hope you understand.
Sounds good, ill play on the blackside. By the way, if you are a WGM, can I get some help on my openings via PM? I have two tournaments in january, and a positive score in both will get me my remaining FM norms
ok I am ready, we'll do me on Chess Match II and jfrazz for Chess Match III
just one simple question.
how did vetkzel get that neat board even with the last piece moved thing, what program ? I'll see if I can google some chess boards. I'll edit the OP to show the rules and everything and we can start on Sunday, sounds good ?
I think it's fair that TL Team plays white now so I'll play black ok ?
Sign ups are open now so,
WHEN YOU SIGN UP POST YOUR VOTE FOR WHITE'S FIRST MOVE !
Wow, this is depressing. Instead of another tourney or match or whatever it was the first time, some of you could start a chess teaching club. Seriously I love chess but you guys are on another level.
The first time I was scared to even post on the thread everyone throwing around tehir ELO's and titles :S That was really intimidating!
Seriously please can someone start a mentor program? I looked up several of the websites posted on the first thread and they were awesome but at the same time it was really advanced stuff that you can appreciate but its not easy to implement and learn from.
On another note, a Wueichi TL club is another GREAT idea. Love that game, my only grudge is the god damn handicaps I don't care how bad I am I don't want a 7 move handicap!!!
Chess-Starcraft-Wuechi the holy trinity of mind games :D
*Can someone explain what the d4;e4;nf3 thing is? That should tell you how n00bish I am in chess even thou I've been actively playing it for as long as I have memory.
For example, 1.Nf3 means, for white, as his first move, Knight moves to the f3 square. As only one knight can do this, no further additions is required.
If you look up chess notation on wiki, you'll get it all super fast
I suppose if you have any questions I can do my best to answer them.
Thanks jfazz I got it now :p We vote on what move goes next, pretty interesting.
Now a question regarding Chess in general: What is the most popular online chess site? I got chess.com ; chesscentral.com ; chesscube.com and the site of the guy that post a lot of puzzles (forgot the site). What is the PokerStars and Two+Two of chess?
ok closing votes for first move shortly, counting , whoa looks like we have a bush-gore 00 florida case
1 e4 8
1 d4 6
1 Nf3 6
1 c4 1
1 e4 wins.
Arhkangel,
you can join us, just keep participating in the thread the analysis are in spoilers you can read them at anytime, they are all pretty good and well explained (I know because I was a teamplayer in the previous match), so they will make you learn a lot.
As a recomendation, I'll give you a quick tutorial. In a match there are three "phases" if you may call them pretty much like in a BW game:
EARLY GAME MID GAME LATE GAME
early game would be in bw your typical build order phase, mid game would me prolly the 1st battles, and late game well the ending.
you can rank chess players as NOVICE - AMATEURS - PROS.
Novice players normally know how to move the pieces and that's about it.
Amateur players nrmally know a few "build orders" which in chess are called OPENINGS, and depending on their level they may have a few flaws here and there during the Opening stage (Early game) or mid game.
Pros would be the koreans of bw. Pros know all Openings of memory and can play them accuracy and no mistakes.
So in chess let's say you're a novice player, the first thing you have to do is memorize a few openings, and acknowledge the fact that normally if you play any other move that is not in the Opening you'll probably end up losing because you're doing something you shouldn't do. For example, let's say you're playing BW and TvP and your SCV scouts P doing a DT rush. You as a T should make moves to counter DT (mines, turrets, scan), cause if you build say siege tanks, you'll likely lose... see my point ? An amateur player would recognize the situation and realize he must counter, and a pro willl likely do too, counter and maybe attack P's weakness by going DT rush.
It's not like the moves are fixed, because there are a few variations, llike I said before. you can counter DT rush with mines OR scan OR academy OR vessel OR turrets, but you won't do all 4 right, you'll pick one and go with it. Hence in chess we have say the "Sicilian" opening which is the main opening and its variations, Sicilian kan, Sicilian taimanov, Sicilian closed, Sicilian classic, Sicilian najdorf". Most opening's names come from either places where they were became famous and players who either are credited with coming up with them or utilized them with great success.
Once your EARLY GAME (OPENING) is somewhat established, you can move on and concentrate on MID GAME. Here is where the tricky part starts because you have to move out of opening in order to win, otherwise you'll either draw or lose. At this stage is where you will really understand the movement and purpose of the pieces. Say which is strong at a point in a game, a dark or a light bishop, or why exchange my knight for a bishop, or when to develop rooks. LATE GAME, well that's another story, my late game is my weakness, because at this point almost all the pieces are gone and there are so many choices there that the minimal mistake will cost you the game. Again in BW imagine a game that goes long that depletes all minerals in the map: you have to be extremely careful with your units if you want to win, and the minimal lose of a zealot or 3 tanks can cost you the match.
so that pretty much it, I'll try to post something else as the game goes on, you'll probably recieve better help from the tteam. so SIGN UP and have fun.
Another similarity between Chess and BW is how hard are they to become real good. It doesn't matter how much you try, there will always be someone out there that will cream you. The amount of dedication and effort chess needs is huge and some raw natural talent is required.
Lighman, jfazz, thank you sooooooooooo much! So I'll keep an eye on this thread I'm also watching a lot of KingCrusher and Jrobchess videos from youtube (somebody from TL recommended them a while back).
Ok it's been a while since I played a WGM, I'd like to jump on white's team (and play you 1on1 later if you don't mind), especially now that we opened 1. e4
some openings (just like bw) are designed to attack more, others are designed to defend more. some openings are more lined towards attacking certain "squares" of the board than others. again, given the opening you have to move on to the line that corresponds to that opening.
white team played
1 e4 (called a opened/semi opened opening)
the typical black can reply to this with
1..... e5 (this is called Ruy Lopez Opening or Spanish Opening) 1......c6 (called Caro Khan) 1......c5 (what I replied, called Sicilian Opening) 1......Nf6 (called Alekhine Opening)
I played sicilian (I responded 1...c5) because I'm a good sicilian player, meaning that I know the opening (and its variations) very well, meaning that I know how and where to move and develop my pieces to attack and defend all squares. I'm also a good Alekhine opening player, but Alekhine is a more risky opening to play, and since this is a public match, it's better to play safe with Sicilian.
at this point, the 1st move, it's impossible to say we're going to be playing an "attacking", "defend", "drawish opening". like I said in the previous post, we have to wait for tthe development of the opening to find out whether if we're proposing an attack/defense/drawish game, all 3 of those Sicilian variations can be achieved, (Sic Khan, Schevenigven, Taimanov, Dragon, Najdorf, 4 knights, Alpine, Closed, Classical). Some are more attack/defend/drawish than others but we'll probably which one we get to by move 5-8. Let's say the Alekhine opening I discarded is like a fast reaver drop in PvZ to which if you do it you are commited to it all the way, whereas Sicilian is your typical 2 gate, zeals, on a PvZ and from there on you can switch to expa, or templars, or reavers, or goons, etc.
now on mid game, once the opening is set and pieces are developed (developed meaning your and your opponent pieces are deployed to attack the squares they're supposed to attack and defend the ones they're suppossed to defend), then mid game consists about gaining an advantage in or around those squares or the surrounding areas. you normally reach mid game by move 10-12, sometimes 15, depending on how deep the early game opening is.
most likely at this point is where the true nature of a player will come out. IE, in mid game you'll see an attacking player attack (Capablanca, Topalov), or a defending player put up a brick wall and defent or wait for a mistake (Kramnik, Petrossian). they focus on which squares are his pieces attacking what and why, and which squares are being defended. keep in mind that normally for every square you attack you'll leave one undefended, and viceversa. 90% of amateur games are won/lost because of this. either one of the players stops defending / attacking a certain area, and the other player capitalizes. that was going on during TL Chess match 1.
if you want we can bump TL Chess match 1 and we can analyze it so I and others can explain you what was going on at every move in a more basic way, since the guy we were playing hasn't been around.
or if you want to start your own thread, let me know what works best for you, either way I'm glad to contribute.
I forget what this is called, but I've had great success with this gambit. After black takes we play c3, black takes again and we move our knight out. It leads to some fairly fast paced games.
I forget what this is called, but I've had great success with this gambit. After black takes we play c3, black takes again and we move our knight out. It leads to some fairly fast paced games.
Except if black knows how to play against that, then it's really shitty. I also played Sicilian in my entire life so you can trust me on that
Vote Nf3 guys! (heh, this is starting to feel like I'm running for some kinda presidency in an election)
Also, just to "argue" with lightman 1. e4 e5 isn't Spanish / Ruy Lopez by default, if white moves 2. Nc3 it's Vienna Opening, and if 2. f4 it's King's Gambit. And even after 2. Nf3 it can develop into Russian Defence (2. Nf6), or for example if Black intends to play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 we can move 3. d4, which is Scottish.
So there are really a lot of openings / opening names , it's all really confusing in the beginning. And that was just 1. e4 e5...
On December 08 2009 02:11 Naib wrote: Oh I forgot to mention that 1. e4 c5 2. d4 (what Athos suggested) is called Morra's Gambit.
1 e4 c5 2 d4 cxd4 3 Qxd4 Nc6 and white has lost pace isnt it?
Btw ill sign up and vote for nf3 since its safe,has a lot of potential and later we can play d4 Bc4 0-0.
Not exactly like that, the idea behind 2. d4 is that after cxd4 you move c3, sacrificing a pawn for an open battlefield + development advantage. However, that can be defused if black plays correctly, therefore (imo and from experience) it isn't worth it at all. Especially not against a superior opponent which we are facing here
You're right about 3. Qxd4 being terrible because of 3. - Nc6 of course - that's why noone would move 3. Qxd4.
Edit: Ikari's post is correct. If you guys want it, I can dig up how black is supposed to play after that to counter white's development advantage and cruise into a safe midgame with a pawn advantage, but I don't want to derail the thread.
On December 08 2009 02:09 Naib wrote: Also, just to "argue" with lightman 1. e4 e5 isn't Spanish / Ruy Lopez by default, if white moves 2. Nc3 it's Vienna Opening, and if 2. f4 it's King's Gambit. And even after 2. Nf3 it can develop into Russian Defence (2. Nf6), or for example if Black intends to play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 we can move 3. d4, which is Scottish.
So there are really a lot of openings / opening names , it's all really confusing in the beginning. And that was just 1. e4 e5...
yes you're right. I didn't want to go too deep into the 1 e4 e5 non Ruy Lopez variations
thank you
by the way remember to add spoiler [] tags to your analysis
2. d4 (and to an extent 2. b4) is kinda cool I guess, but you can't really get much out of the extra development as white if black plays it smart. I think 2. Nc3 is not that bad actually though it's not too active, but why not just go for the obvious move here? Wonder which Sicilian variation is lightman's favorite...
Dude, lightman is a smart guy, he'll have notes on the smith-Morra gambit.
Just to echo Lightman's comments about the openings; your first move says a LOT about who you are as a person, and what your views on the game are.
1.e4 is the attacking, arrogant opening The claim is that white is a lot better for having the first move, so consequently, the positions reached are intended to be as a sharp (dangerous) as possible, to maximise the benefit of the first move. 1.e4 has a greater number of decisive games (non-draws) than any other opening. Overall, at Grandmaster level, it scores 52% for white (due mostly to the sicilian defence!). Famous users include Fisher and Anand - the current world champion.
1.d4 is grinding opening. White claims that the advantages allowed by the first move, such as space, square control and development, gives him a comfortable plus. White may go for a king attack, he may not. Many great 1.d4 players will actually just play for pressure on different areas of the board, hoping to win just a pawn - more than enough for them to win a game. 1.d4 tends to be more drawish than any other opening. Its scores 55% for White, although, in lines like the Nimzo-Indian, Queen's Indian or Queen's Gambit Declined, its almost equal. The openings against 1.d4 that play for a win are all a little suspect. There have been many great 1.d4 players, but ill name just a few: Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnik, Alekhine
1.c4 is similar to 1.d4, but with greater emphasis on flank play and creativity - it is less about massive home preparation. The positions reached can be as sharp or as slow as white wants, it is difficult for black to sharpen the position without white allowing it. Bent Larsen, one of the strongest players ever, said the "great think about flank openings are that they rarely, if ever, lead to mass piece exchanges. If your attack is not going to work, you can retreat and return in another sector of the board". Many of the greats play 1.c4, such as Botvinnik and Korchnoi. It scores around 52%.
1.Nf3 is the opening for players who know exactly what positions they are comfortable with, and are willing to miss out on some advantage to get those positions. Basically, 1.Nf3 is a transpositional tool to reach certain 1.d4 openings, while avoiding others. I use it in tournaments, so that the amount of study required beforehand is less Kramnik used 1.Nf3 for about 10 years, terrorising the entire chess world. Nonetheless, with creative play, it can lead to unique positions.
And just a comment on the Caro-Kann, it is favoured by players who think they are SaviOr (like me!). Macro-play baby!
OK! So lighman you are awesome. I've been doing my homework looking over some games, getting myself acquainted with some decent e4 openings and reading... a lot!
I want in! Just take my suggestions with a grain of salt and I welcome any criticism. I will also do my best to explain my choices :D
BTW regarding you going over the TL Chess Match I thread that's so awesome of you but at this point I think it's better for me to start analyzing this match, but I might take you up on it during the holidays.
I've seen a couple of e4 openings were the game progresses into a fight over control of the center of the board. I think that a P for better positioning is worth it, plus it stays in the spirit that I see the rest of the TL team aggressive and wanting to go for a fast win :p
Is lightman really that good that d4 is out of the question Naib?
Wow jfazz you really beat King? Is that match on Youtube I would love to watch it!
There's something to be said about the closed Sicilian (as black gets to dictate the specific variation that he wants in the open Sicilian), but if we want exciting play, the regular variations are probably fine for just an exhibition style of match.
In my opinion, Smith-Morra is a bad choice. There's a reason why it's not played that much at the pro level and it's because while good for some quick wins on the internet against inexperienced players, it doesn't hold up at longer time controls against someone who knows their stuff.
jfazz, Kasparov played both d4 and e4 pretty regularly, he was quite flexible in that area and a phenomenal theoretician. When it comes to my opening repertoire, I'm kind of weird in that I'm a d4 player exclusively, but I play some interesting stuff as black.
I'll update the teams in a bit and the move tonight, so White still has time to vote and SIGN UPS.
Archangel,
I'm not going to say how would I react or how good or bad am I prepared if white plays 2. d4 (at least not now, maybe later).
so think of the move 2. d4 as proxy gates with DT rush in a PvT, meaning you'd better practiced this strategy 10000 times and apply what you plan perfectly otherwise you're going to lose horribly.
I'll update the teams in a bit and the move tonight, so White still has time to vote and SIGN UPS.
d4 and sidelines like that are good for blitz or beating a much weaker player but nothing more. The pawn sacrifice is hard to justify if black plays even semi-correctly.
haha, lightman, if you had played e5 I would be pushing for the halloween gambit And really, I don't see why so many people are objecting to the Mora Smith gambit, I'm just trying to spice up the game.
On December 09 2009 02:48 Athos wrote: haha, lightman, if you had played e5 I would be pushing for the halloween gambit And really, I don't see why so many people are objecting to the Mora Smith gambit, I'm just trying to spice up the game.
hahaha yes, the next match I play I'll go with one of those unorthodox openings.
A friend of mine I play on a daily basis has a sharp game on those non-common openings, Morra, Scandinavian, King Indian's, English, Bird, he's really into it and he's good, and even though we're pretty even I always have a tough time playing him.
I myself was seriously considering on playing Alekhine instead of Sicilian, but I thought it would have been a bit more difficult to follow during the early game and it would have been unproductive for learniinr purposes. Anyway, we can still break out of book after move 4, 5 and bring in a few surprises !
Ill play in the next one, but i would be happy to play either white or black. That said, if I play black you might end up playing 20+ moves of caro-kann theory
You play 2...Nc6?!! A challenge!
Well, I don't know any sicilian theory, so I am going to advocate we grind you down 3. c3 for me please!
On December 08 2009 13:38 Arhkangel wrote: OK! So lighman you are awesome. I've been doing my homework looking over some games, getting myself acquainted with some decent e4 openings and reading... a lot!
I want in! Just take my suggestions with a grain of salt and I welcome any criticism. I will also do my best to explain my choices :D
BTW regarding you going over the TL Chess Match I thread that's so awesome of you but at this point I think it's better for me to start analyzing this match, but I might take you up on it during the holidays.
I've seen a couple of e4 openings were the game progresses into a fight over control of the center of the board. I think that a P for better positioning is worth it, plus it stays in the spirit that I see the rest of the TL team aggressive and wanting to go for a fast win :p
Is lightman really that good that d4 is out of the question Naib?
Wow jfazz you really beat King? Is that match on Youtube I would love to watch it!
Well, I used to consider myself good enough that I never feared Morra's Gambit 'cause I was prepared for it. And I think lightman is a lot better than I ever was (I'm just thinking about picking up and competitively playing chess again because I have a bit of free time + 'cause of a certain girl but that's another story hehe)
Not much of an analysis I can add here, 2. - Nc6 can develop into various openings depending on what white / black does in the next few moves. 3. d4 is what people move 90% of the time, I'd like to see which standard opening lightman chooses.
Another option would be 3. Bb5 which could be smart if we just want to kill the action and be content with an equal-ish position. It usually leads to very boring games.
3. c3 (what jfazz suggests) is similar to 2. c3 closed-Sicilian openings (and leads to most of it's variations with a move interchange). I always thought that it's a pisspoor excuse of an opening so hence my vote for 3. d4
Let's play some real chess!
I'll try to contribute more to this thread than just popping in and voting for a move, yesterday's been pretty busy
On December 10 2009 00:56 jfazz wrote: It doesn't sound like you enjoy positional chess Naib Embrace the dark side!
Hehe, that's right. The sad part is, however, in the latter years of my "career" I became a lot better at positional chess to the point it actually surpassed my tactical abilities. I still enjoy tactics and wild play a lot more though
I honestly don't mind if we end up playing c3 though. I know a couple of cheepo lines that promise white binds and nice positions if black doesn't react correctly.
3. c3 is generally smoother sailing after 2... d6 than 2... nc6 since it sidesteps certain unpleasant variations that generally promise black easy equality such as 3... d5 and such. But if people prefer a more positional game where you need less knowedge of opening theory, c3 isnt a bad alternative. For people that don't like the Open Sicilian, the most popular sidelines are 3. Bb5(Rossolimo), c3(transposes to Alapin) and Nc3(Closed Sicilian) not necessarily in that order.
I really think the difference in chess between positional and tactical play can be greatly exaggerated. At least the way I see it, a positional 'boring' game can often lead to sharp tactical maneuvers that can really open up the game later on. Still, I just love gambits because they often create very weird and sharp positions from the start of the game. Overall though, I see Chess a game of making the best move for your late game goal.
Personally expecting a Sveshnikov, I've been trying to incorporate that into my repertoire to mix up with the Najdorf but haven't had too much success with it
Well said jcu and naib, that's the beauty of chess: in the early stages it's somewhat of a mind game to find out over what grounds the battle is to be taking place.
and about positional, one sooner or later figures out that it's something you have to work on and improve as it's a deciding factor in a game, at times even more than tactics.
I think this match should be real fun, and I'll also try to contribute more analysis apart from moving.
and to athos, that's totally true also. I hardly think anyone could get tired of combining tactics and positioning. only supreme geniuses like Fischer and Capablanca could see all the moves and lines, and began thinking of variations for the game itself (IE Fischer Chess or Capa Chess), cause they got bored with the rules as we know them, but that's them just 0.00000001 % of the chess players and 0.0000000000000000000000001 % of the world popuplation haha.
@ athos, I agree that the difference between tactical and positional play is exaggurated but this is often because novices have no concept of how to generate a winning plan in chess as dictated by the position. Its necessary to have some foundation of the basic positional imbalances before they can be exploited and culminate in a material advantage.
In respect to the difference between positional play and tactical play, I think its first important to distinguish between positional play and positional moves and tactical play and tactical moves.
A positional position is often closed but not necessarily so and does not lend itself to tactics except for simple skirmishes in the form of perhaps pawn levers or whatnot. You don't want to be calculating combinations that don't exist but you should always be vigilant in chess.
A tactical position is generally one that requires more calculation. Often there are positional imbalances such as a knight vs bishop scenario and the position is open in nature (since this allows more possible moves and direct conflicts with the opposing army) implying fragmented pawn structures or some pawns at least traded.
Now positional moves can be played in tactical or positonal positions and vice versa. The type of position though focusses your energy on whether you should be trying to end the game right now or slowly nurture a small advantage i.e. playing a tactical or positonal move.
Of course this is all based on pattern recognition to find the right balance between tactical and positional moves in a given position. Chess isn't that difficult of a game up to 2400 fide. One IM once told me that he thinks everyone can get a 2400 fide rating after 8 months of focussed study. You build up your chess intuition based on pattern recognition. The GM spends less time calculating over the board than an IM and so on because they recognize positions and how to steer the game advantageously.
Often though you steer towards more positional openings where there is less of a chance you can be surprised by complications if you are confident that your technique is better than your opponents or if you are a lazy, intuitive player who hates studying openings and calculating (not a bad thing by any means). It's also a good idea to play "boring" openings versus opponents with aggressive playstyles and most children since you make them expend their energy trying to calculate tactical moves to gain an advantage when the position does not call for tactics but slow harmonisation of pieces.
I must say I am a surprised we have not seen some version of Fisher chess gain more popularity. At the beginning of games computers now have access to huge openings databases, and as the game goes on they can fully"solve" the game. Having less predictable openings would greatly help humans & possibly make for much more exciting games.
On December 10 2009 06:26 citi.zen wrote: I must say I am a surprised we have not seen some version of Fisher chess gain more popularity. At the beginning of games computers now have access to huge openings databases, and as the game goes on they can fully"solve" the game. Having less predictable openings would greatly help humans & possibly make for much more exciting games.
Computers generally perform much better than humans in random chess. Humans rely a lot more on openings and patterns than we like to admit, while a computer will have the same evaluation criteria no matter what the position on the board.
are you guys cool if the trend keeps moving towards d4 I can update tomorrow around noon that way we can move more quickly on the early game, or do you prefer me waiting till Friday ? I mean so far almost half of the team has voted already.
I don't feel that at a high level that there is not a huge difference between sharp tactical play and quiet positional play. Many wins by Petrosian or Karpov came in a completely calm and quiet fashion, wherin their opponents had nothing the whoel game - while the games typically do conclude in tactical flurries, that is only the result of extensive positional manoevures - their opponents are forced into a ruined position where there are no good moves left. I feel this distinguishes that style of play from sharper tactical players, who tr to constantly set challenges for their opponents, one after another, hammer blow after hammer blow, until they collapse.
The key difference is the attacking nature of the play, in my opinion, often positional players are not ever playing for "an attack". For example, I won a game earlier this morning in an English opening that transposed to a Maroczy Bind and I ended up converting a bishop pair and space advantage to a winning endgame position - but I never ever looked like winning via an attack. Actually, from memory, I didn't use a single combination or tactical ploy the whole game. I know its only one game, but think it is indicitive of my overall method of play, and of positional players in general.
On December 10 2009 06:26 citi.zen wrote: I must say I am a surprised we have not seen some version of Fisher chess gain more popularity. At the beginning of games computers now have access to huge openings databases, and as the game goes on they can fully"solve" the game. Having less predictable openings would greatly help humans & possibly make for much more exciting games.
Computers generally perform much better than humans in random chess. Humans rely a lot more on openings and patterns than we like to admit, while a computer will have the same evaluation criteria no matter what the position on the board.
Do you have some citations for that claim? I am not disputing it, but am curious to find out more, since such a finding would go against the very spirit of random chess. I found this link citing Matthias Wüllenweber, who agrees with you, but had trouble finding much more. Sorry if this getting off topic, its just one of those things I've always wondered about.
I honestly wouldn't. I can't devote more than 15 minutes to this game each day. For team play, once a day is already very fast, it makes cooperation practically impossible. I guess that essentially all that will happen is that we analyze the position and vote, separately. If someone comes up with a good but deep idea, there won't be much time to alert the rest of the voters, and we can pretty much forget about splitting work between us.
yes I agree The BB. don't worry, twice a day is not possible even for me. I suggested it only for these early stages I was suggesting like for instance d4 is clearly a winner and we're in opening stage, and after my move you're next move will prolly be automatic no brainer too (Nxd4), I mean I'll honor the voting but it's 99% sure that's what white play right ?
once we've reached move 5 or 6 we'll stick to the 48 hour voting time so that you guys can analyze all your potential moves and analyze your positions and debate.
4.Nxd4 followed by 4...Resigns, you're down a pawn!
I just one a nice game out of a sideline reti, I will try to annotate it and post it soon. Hopefully I can give you guys a taste of how I am playing prior to my tournament adventures
Yes, because for example if it goes like 1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. c3 dxc3 4. Nxc3 Nc6 then - iirc - 5. Nf3 is not the best thing white can move. I'm not 100% positive about this however, I should look it up.
The next move basically 90% decides which variation of the Sicilian are we playing against. Not that all of them are still possible (for example the Scheveningen variation), but black still has several choices.
For example: 4. - d6, 4. - Nf6 4. - e5 4. g6
I will refrain from further analysis until I see lightman's move
4. - g6 is less common exactly because of this move. I'm not 100% familiar with this opening anymore (gonna look it up later today / tmrw the latest), but basically it's bound to set us up in a stronger position than it's usually allowed. Assuming we play correctly of course (hence will I dig up those books xD).
Should we not play 5. c4, we will transition into the classic Dragon variation of the Sicilian defence [which I'm very fond of playing against], black's development being g6, Nf6 Bg7 0-0 etc, while we - I at least would - play Be3 Bc4 f3 Qd2 0-0-0. Obviously the moves are not in this order exactly, I'm just throwing out a general gameplan here.
One important thing about the former paragraph is (should any of you ever play against the Dragon variation of the Sicilian defence) moving f3 at the right time (basically, if black has moved Nf6 Bg7 and d6 already, and your Bishop is on e3, your next move should be f3 in order to stop Ng4 - because that royally screws you over. Just a small trick / thing to be mindful of.
An example: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 g6 5. Nc3 Bg7 6. Be3 d6 7. f3 (if you move 7. Bc4 and mindlessly go with my "plan" above, then 7. - Ng4 and the forced exchange in the center basically puts the solutions of Black's problems in his / her hands)
Edit: Yeah I left out the most important part again, long live Maróczy^^
Also from my experience the best way to deal with the dragon is to push out with the H pawn and screw up his pawn formation then swoop in for the kill.
On December 12 2009 03:25 stormtemplar wrote: Bc1-e3 Guys, don't focus to much on how to "Fight the dragon" or stop this opening or whatever. I have no set opening moves past kings pawn but I win pretty often by just seeing the board and picking the move I think will confer an advantage. Mid and late game are more important.
As I said im not that good so dont trust on me. Here is a scene in my mind: 5c4 Bg7 6Be3 Nf6 7Nc3 0-0 8Be2 d6 9 0-0 Bd7 10 Qd2 Nxd4 11 Bxd4 Bc6 12f3 a5 13 b3 Nd7 14Be3 Nc5 15Rab1 Qb6 16Rfc1 Rfc8
After this its really complicated. But we have the upperhand in this variation: 17Rc2 Qd8 18a3 b6 19b4 axb4 20 axb4 Na4 21 Nd5 Whats ur opinion?
On December 12 2009 03:25 stormtemplar wrote: Bc1-e3 Guys, don't focus to much on how to "Fight the dragon" or stop this opening or whatever. I have no set opening moves past kings pawn but I win pretty often by just seeing the board and picking the move I think will confer an advantage. Mid and late game are more important.
I think we would all agree with the fact that we want "whatever move will confer an advantage" and that mid/late game is important. When we get there we will hopefully put up a good fight. In the meantime we have an opening to play.
The part about lightman being a WGM is a joke isn't it? That's what someone told me at least. Anyways d6 is a dragon. Right now we are in accelerated dragon which is quite alot different. The slow kingside build up with h4 that pwns in normal dragon sometimes is prone to counter strikes in the centre like d5 as goldrush said. The main point of the accelerated dragon is to play d5 immediately without d6. Of course the accelerated can sometimes transpose into the dragon. The general idea for any Maroczy bind is to keep black passive and use our spatial advantage. Yeh, it's pretty boring i guess but it's easier to play as white =/
Yeah, the Yugoslav type formation will not work here. The accelerated dragon he is entering can actually come from a line in the english (1.c4 c5 2.e4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 6. Be3).
I play a lot of games from this position (otherwise you end up in a king's indian, and why would you want to let them use their heavy home prep?). 5.c4 is THE move of choice in this position. Otherwise, black can equalise fairly comfortably after normal developing moves and a quick d5, even if it comes as a sacrifice (black's positions holds A LOT potential engergy).
The real question for us, is, do we want do meet Nc6 with Be3, or a knight retreat (c2 would be standard, to eventually come to e3 later in the game to attack the d5 square). This may seem slow, but it works, given the space advantage white has (and that we can play for b4 and f4 as well).
On December 12 2009 08:22 jfazz wrote: Yeah, the Yugoslav type formation will not work here. The accelerated dragon he is entering can actually come from a line in the english (1.c4 c5 2.e4 g6 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 6. Be3).
I play a lot of games from this position (otherwise you end up in a king's indian, and why would you want to let them use their heavy home prep?). 5.c4 is THE move of choice in this position. Otherwise, black can equalise fairly comfortably after normal developing moves and a quick d5, even if it comes as a sacrifice (black's positions holds A LOT potential engergy).
The real question for us, is, do we want do meet Nc6 with Be3, or a knight retreat (c2 would be standard, to eventually come to e3 later in the game to attack the d5 square). This may seem slow, but it works, given the space advantage white has (and that we can play for b4 and f4 as well).
That's what I was thinking when you overcame with joy at 4. - g6! That "this sure can be developed from an English opening after 1. c4 c5 2. e4" Heh, no wonder you're happy now unlike when we first encountered an open Sicilian variation
To answer your question, after reviewing my old theory books, I would recommend Nc2 in that situation. The few Maróczy binds I played, it was doing that and it worked pretty well.
Let's just see if our next move is indeed 5. c4 first though
Yeah...Sicilians are not my thing. I dabble mostly with 1.d4, but also a small amount with 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 (the former for tournaments, the latter for special prep for certain opponents, mostly Gruenfeld dudes). Getting into a line from the English is like, my backyard, especially this particularly line, which arises out of the symmetrical english AND the reti.
there are really two main versions of the maroczy. the classical with b4 and f4, or the more modern, less ambitious option with b3 and f3, and central expansion. I wouldn't mind saying the classical - I don't think he will know it that well, and regardless, we should be able to squeeze him rather well...the b4 line especially really hurts back on the queenside, which can then lead to a massive kingside attack via the f5 break (f1 rook never moves in this line), once black is tied down on the queenside...that and any endgame is much easier for us due to the space and activity advantage!
On December 13 2009 07:49 proberecall wrote: I want to vote Nxc6 but I have a question seeing so many people voting c4. Is c4 better than Nxc6 ? Because what I was thinking
NxC6 leads to bxC6, which leaves black with 3 very strong pawns in the center and makes d5 a real problem. You are basically wasting a move, while black develops a pawn into a stronger position.
Hey guys, you should all make the effort to check out the games from the London Chess Classic:enjoy! I would reccomend above all others Kramniks most recent two games with the Black pieces - Big Vlad is back and winning!
jfrazz, I was so angry Kramnik losing to Anand. Back in the 90s my friends and I always said if there was one player who could stop Kasparov that was Kramnik and hold championship throughout the 2000s. Vlad's one of the greatest players in the history of chess, I would like to see him regain the title (although it's hard w Carlsen now).
Yeah I doubt Kramnik will ever regain the title now, he just probably does not have it in him to make the needed repetoire and psychological changes. Still, I feel he is the greatest player of all time, and I prefer to look over his games in preference to anyone else.
While chess is quickly becoming a young player's game, Kramnik is still a top 3 player and will be for a long time if he sticks with chess. He's still quite young by chess standards. What usually stops players from attaining the tile is all the bureaucractic shit. It makes people even leave chess like Kasparov. He couldn't get a rematch versus Kramnik for so long because Kramnik didn't want to play a rematch and no one could force him to. Everything he did was within his rights as well I'm sure. There was so much confusion anyways because the Kasparov-Kramnik match wasn't even FIDE sanctioned yet most of the world recognized it as a world title match.
Also, if people want to know what's going on in the chess world, I recommend chessbase.com It's the "teamliquid" for english chess news and always has games from recent tourneys. You can dig up old games too using the archives. Although, I didn't look at the games, the site has the London Chess Classic games with analysis provided. You can play through them at your leisure and understand some of the ideas by reading the analysis as you go. For example: http://www.chessbase.com/news/2009/london/games/saunders04.
Not to derail the thread, but why is Kramnik one of the greatest players of all time? He hasn't revolutionized the game, he doesn't display dominance like some of the other world champions showed and his accomplishments aren't all that great either (again, compared to the other world champions).
He's still a really good chess player and one of the best in the world right now, but greatest of all time is a really strong statement.
People say he's the greatest of all time because he beat Kasparov in a match when no one thought it was possible and Kasparov is often said to be one of the all time greats. The greatest of all time title is always debatable since it is hard to compare different eras of the game. It is probably best not to compare them at all and just say that all of these champions were great. How do you measure greatness anyways? Difference in class between your contemporaries? Number of years reigned champion? Raw chess talent? Overall skill? Maybe its a mixture of qualities. Not all chess players have the same environment to nurture their skill. In Fischer's time, he was basically the only person playing chess at the level of the soviets. Anand had little benifit from the russian chess schools.
JCU thanks for that webpage. I was really looking for a place to start getting acquainted with the current top-players, from my recent research most of the players that are mentioned are gone. Keeping up with the champions is one of the things that keep me interested (that's why I follow and love StarCraft, more so than the gameplay itself).
This thread is a blessing for anyone that want's to get started with playing REAL chess. If you take the time to analyze all the good posts and play out the different scenarios that people predict you learn a lot.
6.Be3
*So now that we got our Maróczy Bind set-up and lightman is playing his accelerated Dragon we start to see the interesting and not by-the-book stuff? I sure hope so! I can learn opening by reading websites I wanna see some deep "strategizing." :p
Kramnik is the greatest of all time in my mind, because he was the most dominant player in the modern era, which has had the stongest players of all time.
Im not going by rating (to do so would suggest that Karpov at his peak wouldnt even be world top 10, which is of course, ridiculous).
Kramnik HAS very much changed chess culture and fashion. Remember the King's Indian defence? Once one of black's most popular responses to 1.d4? Wiped out from GM play by Kramnik's 9.b4 bayonet attack (scores almost 68%!).
Remember the slav? That was the ugly cousin of the QGD until the late 90s and Kramnik.
The petroff or berlin defence? He is their hero.
The reti opening? No one made better use of 1.Nf3 than Vlad.
Kramnik changed the way top players would have to prepare for tournaments. Openings played by players their whole career became useless. He made the anti-QID/Nimzo opening work. The catalan went from relative obscurity to one of the most popular openings at GM level. The level of endgame play has greatly increased under his guidance (he is, without doubt, the greatest endgame player of all time).
Vlad is a subtle guy. He won't be remembered for dashing attacks, new openings or memorable quotes. What his legacy will be is difficult to say. But whatever does happen, he beat the commonly held strongest player of all time without losing a game. That has to count for something.
A slightly awkward anecdote of how it went: I was walking the girl I'm dating to the bus stop while she received a call from her team's manager (we used to play in the same chess club and have known each other for like 10 years or more) if she was available playing on Sunday this and the next week and after declining the former and accepting the latter she added "Oh and I have great news for you! (Insert my name here) would like to start playing again, could you put us into the same team each week? You know, we're a couple nowadays!" My face must've screamed "WTF" but heh, I guess that makes it official
if there is a ranking of all the great chess players I would place Fischer, Capablanca, Kasparov, Morphy and Alekhine above them all, and in a second place I would place Kramnik maybe with Karpov and Lasker. On a thrid place I would place all the rest of the players that have been world champs.
Why Kramnik is that great (Pretty much jfazz summed it all pretty well):
- Maybe the best defensive player of all time, that is the toughest player to beat. - Retook openings once considered dead or useless, QID, Catalan, Slav, Berlin Wall. - Beat Kasparov at his own game with the Berlin Wall. - Beat Kasparov losing no games for the WC (No one before had done that, except Capablanca). - Successfully defended his title twice against the two best players that could challenge him.
Why Kramnik isn't in Fischer, Capa's league:
- Although I acknowledge it was his style defense that gave him strength, I believe he was a bit excessive on drawing some games. - Although definetly dominant, he didn't really have that "unbeatable" aura Fischer, Kasparov, Capa had during their time. - Yes, he defeated Kasparov 2-0 for the WC, but a review of the championship makes one think that it was more a Kasparov "did not fight to defend his title" rather than Kramnik winning. Don't get me wrong, when Kramnik played white he pushed for the win in all games and when he got black he defended focusing on successfully drawing the Berlin Wall -which he did- which is what almost any WC challenger should do, especially against Kasparov's 1. e4. It was Kasparov that with white never played or pushed for a win, and with black just couldn't do anything against Kramnik, instead kept drawing games with 11, 14 and 24 moves.
I think that if anyone should have backed up a rematch for a WC (apart from Capablanca to Alekhine), should have been Kasparov to Kramnik.
About losing the title to Anand: First Kramnik is stripped out of his title in some weird round robin format tournament that almost nobody backed up or supported. Then I followed both Kramnik's and Anand's preparation for the WC, and Anand was playing solid chess yes, and Kramnik wasn't, I guess and can understand he was clearly upset of playing a WC match he shouldn't be playing on the first place, and if anything he should have played a WC vs Anand with more time in advance.
by the way, 6. Be3 is cleary winning this vote, do you guys want to update today instead of tomorrow ?
Its really hard to rate all the world champs. Perhaps by style?
UNIVERSAL: -kasparov -fischer (i am probably giving him more credit than he deserves) -capablanca -spassky -euwe -lasker -steinitz
DEFENSIVE: -kramnik -karpov -petrosian (slightly controversial no doubt, but petrosian was crazy strong afterall) -Botvinnik
ATTACKING: -tal -alekhine -anand
the attacking ones are hard to break up, and all of them were fantastic positional players, Tal especially. Still, Alekhine was "The Attacking Machine", Tal the "Wizard of Riga" and Anand "The Tiger of Madras", so the are more reputed for attacking play than anything else
The sad thing is that greats will be forgotton, like Leko, Morozevich, Ivanchuk, Bronstein and Korchnoi, while Fischer will be remembered...sad
please let me know if you prefer this board or should I look for another one.
Fischer is another controversial case: yes his methods weren't antiics and he chickened out defending his title after he swore he would, but all in all I believe he does deserve the credit. Ironically FIDE eventually adopted the very own rules he himself (Fischer) had proposed to them earlier in his match vs Karpov (only difference was FIDE used 6 instead of 10 wins, draws not counting).
On Fischer's accomplishments, let's not forget the "Fischer juggernaut" of 12-0ing two GM. His record during that whole cycle was 23-3=14, unheard of before or since, concluding with obtaining the WC title. 23 wins, only 3 losses and 14 draws (which could have been less, since most of them were him just securing the title vs Spassky), against Taimanov, Larssen, Petrossian and Spassky. Two GM top 5 players, and ex world champion and the world champion himself.
That is 23 wins (13 of them in a row, yes 13 straight wins against GMs opponents) only 3 losses and 14 draws against the top 4 chess players of the world: simply unthinkable. That would be something like Kasparov going 12-0 against Topalov and Anand, beating Kramnik 5-1 and beating Karpov 7-2.
The only other sick stat that can compare with that would be Capablanca's 8 year undefeated period from 1916 till 1924 holding undefeated records against Tartakower, Nimzowitch, Alekhine, Bogomoljov, Lasker, I mean how sick is that ? with the exception of alekhine and lasker, none of them could beat him ever. How sick is that ?
1) 7.Be2 and now a)7...d6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.0-0 probably ...f5 or ...Ng4; Ng4 looks like it is refuted by Bxg4, and ...f5 looks dubious after exf5; black lags in development and his kingside is starting to be compromised. edge to white, maybe even big edge. b)7...0-0 8.Nc3 d6 9.0-0 with transposition to the above line; balck could instead try ...f5 on move 8, but this seems to be crushed after 9.Bxh6! Bxh6 10.exf5 gxf5 11.Bh5+ with huge advantage to white. Black could try 9...Bxd4 but after 10.0-0 it is white who has all the time in the world to prove his advantage. c)7...f5 8. exf5 Nxf5 (i think this is lightman's plan) 9.Nxf5 and now:
c1) 9...Qa5+ 10.Nc3 Qxf5 and 0-0, Rc1, h4 or Qd2 all look promising. c2) 9...Bxb2!? 10.Nbd2 gxf5 11.Bh5+ and white's attack looks overwhelming, after 11...Kf8, 12.Qc2 forces 12...Bf6 and now 13.Bh6+ followed by Qxf5, nasty!
c1 is black's best try, in all other lines white gets a noticable edge.
2) 7.Nc3 a) 7...Ng4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 9.Qd1 Ne6 10.Rc1 and something like Qa5, b6, 0-0 or d6, but white gets what he wants out of the opening; space edge with some attacking chances. This position REALLY appeals to me as a positional player, but it surely is not as nice as the crazy attacking chances we get in line 1) b) 7...d6 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 and everything looks suspect; both ...f5 and ...Ng4 dont look so flash, but what else? Maybe Qa5 or Nxd4 followed by Be6, but white retains a comfortable plus in any line, and the knight of h6 looks stupid. c) 7...0-0 8.Be2 d6 9.0-0 with transposition to above.
Resultantly, 7.Be2 just seems more accurate, forcing black to either go passive with line c1, or alternatively make some major concessions for activity with another option. This seems like best play for us, it is VERY easy for black to go wrong, but we will always get a safe castled king with good development. Besides, I want to see wha we can do when attacking!
Not much difference for me between Nc3 and Be2 but I like the spacing a bit better if we develop the knight + no rush to castle at the moment. Things are getting interesting with black's next move: Ng4? d6? something else? Either way I think we have a pretty strong position.
I actually liked the green white board better. The contrast is easier on the eyes.
7. Be2
Capablanca was much more positional and lazy than universal. He just understood the game so much better than his peers. But in the present day, he would be punished for his lack of calculation. And Kasparov has a very agressive/tactical/attacking tendency. He always wants to find the best agressive continuations and calculate everything. His discipline to calculate so much makes him a great player combined with his great understanding of chess. I would say Karpov has a really universal style since he played the game so intuitively. Spassky of course is well known for playing e4 and d4 and basically anything equally well so that makes him pretty universal. He also liked to constrain himself to max 5 min per moves and jokes stuff like that.
Be2 is most flexible and accurate since it immediately prevents ng4 and develops the bishop to its most natural square. His Nh6 immediately looks awkward as he will most likely have to reroute it via f7 or g8 or play f5. After Be2 we may be able to do jokes agressive plans like g4 rg1 g5 followed by h4 and h5 and stuff as long as we keep in mind his counterplay and prevent him from breaking in the centre. If we want to be more circumspect, and less agressive, probably Qd2 setups with normal development.
With precise play, I'm pretty sure we can abuse his Nh6 and at least make it difficult for him to draw.
On December 14 2009 19:42 jfazz wrote: Kramnik is the greatest of all time in my mind, because he was the most dominant player in the modern era, which has had the stongest players of all time.
Im not going by rating (to do so would suggest that Karpov at his peak wouldnt even be world top 10, which is of course, ridiculous).
Kramnik HAS very much changed chess culture and fashion. Remember the King's Indian defence? Once one of black's most popular responses to 1.d4? Wiped out from GM play by Kramnik's 9.b4 bayonet attack (scores almost 68%!).
Remember the slav? That was the ugly cousin of the QGD until the late 90s and Kramnik.
The petroff or berlin defence? He is their hero.
The reti opening? No one made better use of 1.Nf3 than Vlad.
Kramnik changed the way top players would have to prepare for tournaments. Openings played by players their whole career became useless. He made the anti-QID/Nimzo opening work. The catalan went from relative obscurity to one of the most popular openings at GM level. The level of endgame play has greatly increased under his guidance (he is, without doubt, the greatest endgame player of all time).
Vlad is a subtle guy. He won't be remembered for dashing attacks, new openings or memorable quotes. What his legacy will be is difficult to say. But whatever does happen, he beat the commonly held strongest player of all time without losing a game. That has to count for something.
Greatest endgame player of all time? Better than Smyslov or Capablanca or Fischer? He has some great endgames, sure, but all of the world champions do. At the very least, it isn't indisputable.
There are plenty of players who've changed chess culture as much as Kramnik has. And I'd actually argue that his contribution to changing the opening strategies is no more than any other champion. Chess openings come and go, sometimes something is in style and then it fades, usually following the world champion's repertoire. For example, Kasparov and Fischer and the Najdorf boom.
The thing is, it's hard to say that it's because of him that the play has become so much more exacting. He happened to coincide with the computer age where everything has become more precise and every move, in both the endgame and the openings, counts for so much more. As for beating the strongest player of all time in a match; look at starcraft and the scrubs that've beaten some of the best in matches.
I'm pretty sure that Kasparov and before him, Botvinnik, were the forefathers of the current modern approach to tournament preparation.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I'm just curious because I personally think that Kasparov, Karpov and Capablanca (to give three examples) during their careers surpass Kramnik in almost all of the commonly held measurements of 'greatness'.
h3 removes the g4 square from the knight, but much more securely than Be2 because once Black moves d6, the knight can move to g4 again. Whatever black moves, we can then pressure with Qd2, which pressures some desperate play from black to save that knight. Most logically, I think black would try f5 or Qa5+, but Qa5+ gets us free development and a good position to work with and f5 leaves black with a weakened kingside. Play would continue as 9... Qxf5 (taking with the pawn leads to Qh5+), 10. Bd3 , and any Queen move allows us to castle. We now have a good position with all our minor pieces developed, while black has a trapped bishop and a rather broken king side.
Other alternatives:
7. Nc3 - No. I think this will end up happening: 7... Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4. Then we have to move 9. Qd1 or else our Rook drops. Further play gets ugly, at least in my view.
7. Be2 - Naturally develops a piece, enables castling for us, and stops 7... Ng4. The queen is tied down to the knight on d4, and I don't like the idea of a knight occupying that center square with no pawns to push it out. I think it's natural, but not the best move.
I made my decision before going back and looking over jfazz's analysis; it looks like Be2 is a just as solid continuation. I'm looking to discourage d6 from ever happening, which gives us a more secure center. Not only that, but I think you're wrong in your analysis of d6 jfazz. See below:
I'd say that f5 leads black into an equalizing position because of:
9... f5 10. exf5 Bxd4 11. Bxh6 (else we definitely lose the advantage) Rxf5. From here, black has a decent position to work with. Although the kingside is blasted open, I see no possible ways for white to take advantage of it. After 11... Rxf5, I think play would follow: 12. Rc1 (unless you want doubled isolated pawns) Qb6! From here we're forced on the defensive. I might have messed something up somewhere in my analysis though.
h3 removes the g4 square from the knight, but much more securely than Be2 because once Black moves d6, the knight can move to g4 again. Whatever black moves, we can then pressure with Qd2, which pressures some desperate play from black to save that knight. Most logically, I think black would try f5 or Qa5+, but Qa5+ gets us free development and a good position to work with and f5 leaves black with a weakened kingside. Play would continue as 9... Qxf5 (taking with the pawn leads to Qh5+), 10. Bd3 , and any Queen move allows us to castle. We now have a good position with all our minor pieces developed, while black has a trapped bishop and a rather broken king side.
Other alternatives:
7. Nc3 - No. I think this will end up happening: 7... Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4. Then we have to move 9. Qd1 or else our Rook drops. Further play gets ugly, at least in my view.
7. Be2 - Naturally develops a piece, enables castling for us, and stops 7... Ng4. The queen is tied down to the knight on d4, and I don't like the idea of a knight occupying that center square with no pawns to push it out. I think it's natural, but not the best move.
I made my decision before going back and looking over jfazz's analysis; it looks like Be2 is a just as solid continuation. I'm looking to discourage d6 from ever happening, which gives us a more secure center. Not only that, but I think you're wrong in your analysis of d6 jfazz. See below:
I'd say that f5 leads black into an equalizing position because of:
9... f5 10. exf5 Bxd4 11. Bxh6 (else we definitely lose the advantage) Rxf5. From here, black has a decent position to work with. Although the kingside is blasted open, I see no possible ways for white to take advantage of it. After 11... Rxf5, I think play would follow: 12. Rc1 (unless you want doubled isolated pawns) Qb6! From here we're forced on the defensive. I might have messed something up somewhere in my analysis though.
12.Qd2 a) 12...Qb6 13.Bd3! Rf7 (forced) 14.Nb5 Bc5 15.Bf4 followed by Bg3 and white has a lasting endgame plus based on his superior pawn structure.
Better may be 14.Be3 Bg4 15.h3 Bf5 16.Bxf5 Rxf5 17.Nd5!! Qxb2 18.Qxb2 Bxb2 19.Rab1 Bf6 20.Rxb7 and white looks winning. b) 12...Qa5 13.Rc1 Be6 14.Nb5 Qxd2 15.Bxd2 and black will have a slight pull going into an endgame, often with better pawn structure after a minority attack. this actually looks pretty close to winning after everything is traded c)12...e6 13.Be3 just looks awkward for black.
I stand by my analysis as giving some lasting edge
On December 15 2009 11:58 jfazz wrote: @ Mystlord, after 11...Rxf5 + Show Spoiler +
12.Qd2 a) 12...Qb6 13.Bd3! Rf7 (forced) 14.Nb5 Bc5 15.Bf4 followed by Bg3 and white has a lasting endgame plus based on his superior pawn structure.
Better may be 14.Be3 Bg4 15.h3 Bf5 16.Bxf5 Rxf5 17.Nd5!! Qxb2 18.Qxb2 Bxb2 19.Rab1 Bf6 20.Rxb7 and white looks winning. b) 12...Qa5 13.Rc1 Be6 14.Nb5 Qxd2 15.Bxd2 and black will have a slight pull going into an endgame, often with better pawn structure after a minority attack. this actually looks pretty close to winning after everything is traded c)12...e6 13.Be3 just looks awkward for black.
I stand by my analysis as giving some lasting edge
a) 15... Be6 16. Bg3 Ra8-f8 17. Nc3 Qb4 18. b3 Ne5 19. Be2 Bg4 ... At this point the game feels like the threats are building up for white while Black's position is rather solid. A pawn push for Black feels really threatening.
As for your other line, why not 14. Be3 Bxe3 15. fxe3 Be6 16. Rxf7 Bxf7 17. Rf1 Rf8 18. b3 Be6 19. Rxf8 Kxf8 20. Qf2 Kg7. I see an about equal position from here.
Now I'll expand on my h3 line...
7. h3 f5 8. exf5 Nxf5 9. Nxf5
a) 9... Bxb2 10. Nd2 gxf5 (Bxa1 leads to a bad position for Black, as all of his pieces are clamped down) 11. Qxh5+ Kf8 12. Qxf5 Kg8 13. Rb1 and White clearly has a good position from here.
b) 9... Qa5+ 10. Nc3 Qxf5 11. Bd3 Qf7 12. 0-0 0-0 13. c5 d6 14. cxd6 exd6 15. Bc2 Qe7 16. Qd2 Be6 17. Ra-d1 Be5 18. Rf-e1... You can see where this is going. That pawn on d6 has suddenly become a huge liability for Black. I see White with a clear attacking advantage from this position.
i sat down and played with the pieces, and although black gets good activity, I cannot see how he can generate a decisive attack. The best I can get is repitition of moves by both sides, alternating different ways of attacking and defending f2. Black cannot pawn push on the kingside because it exposes his king too quickly - white has sufficient activity to punish such an endeavour, as the white queen can always penetrate on the dark squares, onceblack is forced t resolve his central pawn structure, with the dark square bishop on c5 or d4.
As for the second line, starting with 14.Be3, the move 16.Nd5 is an improvement over your 16.Rxf7; but still leads to an endgame, where white has a slight pull when the major pieces come off, with pawns all over the board in such a fashion as to give a small advantage to the side with a bishop vs knight.
After Be2, d6 I dont think it's possible to play ng4 after nc3 because there's the intermezzo (in between move) nxc6. For eg. be2, d6, nc3 and now bg4 is a mistake since white has nxc6 and if bxc6 winning a free bishop. If nxb, nxd8 qxd1 and rxd1 protecting the knight and probably winning. h3 is okay but its a bit passive. It depends what type of plan you are going for later. h3 and a3 though are usually good moves if timing isn't too important in a position.
Feel free to correct me, if I've overlooked something as I'm not using a board and am out of practice by 6/7 years.
I can see that my attempts for h3 aren't going to work, so I'll give up. At this point in the game, we're talking a very minor detail that probably won't result in any major gameplay changes anyway. The two lines do merge after a while regardless because of Black's Nh6 move. That knight is going to drop soon (or moved back to its original position) unless Black generates some counter play with f5.
I added both a green and dark board with a bunch of space between them given the fact that a few users preferred one instead of the other, that way everyone's happy (as long as none comes up asking for a blue board or a yellow board or a rainbow board).
about kramnik's endgame:
I strongly differ here on kram being the best endgame player and I agree with whoever said Capablanca and Fischer were the best endgame players ever, Capablanca slightly above Fischer.
Once the game reached and endgame position there was nothing you could do against Capablanca, at least that's what I've seen from all his games. Capa never missed a draw or a victory in an equal to equal endgame position. Same applies for Fischer but in a lesser degree.
Kramnik missed a lot of clear wins (or drawing) chances in his career, again not saying that he's bad, he's definetly top class, but not in Capa or Fischer's league regarding endgame. Kramnik's strength is def early and mid game.
I don't like the continuations from 8. exf5. For example Nxf5 leaves his knight in a very strong position, so it almost forces 9. Nxf5 and it seems black can now take the initiative with 9... Qa5+ followed by 10... Qxf5. The bishop at g7 remains troublesome, and 11... 0-0 lines up the black rook and queen nicely... I just don't like all the offensive options black has, it seems we lose initiative and play reactively.
I don't like the continuations from 8. exf5. For example Nxf5 leaves his knight in a very strong position, so it almost forces 9. Nxf5 and it seems black can now take the initiative with 9... Qa5+ followed by 10... Qxf5. The bishop at g7 remains troublesome, and 11... 0-0 lines up the black rook and queen nicely... I just don't like all the offensive options black has, it seems we lose initiative and play reactively.
Me neither. I don't see any reason to let the knight come to f5 so easily, and after Nc3, the pawn on f5 is harmless as far as I can see. Neither fxe4 or f4 are particularly dangerous.
This will get rid of his knight which could pose a potential threat. Black would have to take out the bishop with one of his own as to safeguard his rook. That leaves us free to take his pawn, as the black bishop can't realy get anywhere.
8...dxc6 9.Qxd8+ Kxd8 10.Nc3 Qc7 11.0-0-0 how does that look? we should have winning chances in the edngame,
while
8...bac6!? 9.Qd2 Ng4 10.exf5 gxf5 11.h3 Nxe3 12.Bh5+ Kf8 13.fxe3 and we can castle with pressure down the f-file on the black king, with a central pawn break possible
in accordance with that analysis, i may soon change my vote
8...dxc6 9.Qxd8+ Kxd8 10.Nc3 Qc7 11.0-0-0 how does that look? we should have winning chances in the edngame,
while
8...bac6!? 9.Qd2 Ng4 10.exf5 gxf5 11.h3 Nxe3 12.Bh5+ Kf8 13.fxe3 and we can castle with pressure down the f-file on the black king, with a central pawn break possible
in accordance with that analysis, i may soon change my vote
I don't like it. After 8...bac6!? 9.Qd2 Ng4 10.exf5 gxf5 11.h3 Nxe3 12.Bh5+ Kf8 13.fxe3 black can get activity on the queenside, i.e.
13...Rb8 14. Nc3 Qb6 15. b3 Qa5 16. Rc1, and then there are several options for black. He can take the knight for example, after which black might be able to defend against e4 with the queen, and playing e6, Ke7 the king looks quite safe. After a continuation like 16...Bxc3 17. Rxc3 e6 18. O-O Qc5 19. Kh1 Ke7, I don't like our setup.
8...dxc6 9.Qxd8+ Kxd8 10.Nc3 Qc7 11.0-0-0 how does that look? we should have winning chances in the edngame,
while
8...bac6!? 9.Qd2 Ng4 10.exf5 gxf5 11.h3 Nxe3 12.Bh5+ Kf8 13.fxe3 and we can castle with pressure down the f-file on the black king, with a central pawn break possible
in accordance with that analysis, i may soon change my vote
I don't like that it pretty much forces Qd2 or some version thereof after bxc6. It seems like we lose a tempo & black is free to then do whatever, take the initiative. I don't think we should rush to take that f5 pawn for the same reason: why lose a tempo if we don't have to? I'd rather develop a piece or do something more constructive.
8. exf5 looks bad due to 8... Nxf5 opening the kingside for black to attack. 8. Bxh6 just gives black a big diagonal after 8...Bxh6. 8. Nxc6 looks really risky, especially with the threat of Bxb2 and giving black a long diagonal.
Nc3 doesn't really save any tempi since black still has fxe4 nxe4 qa5+ and then the knight must block the check unless you want to play an ugly move like bd2 or kf1. exf5 looks strong to me. one possible line: exf5, nxf5, nxf5, qa5+, nc3, qxf5 c5! All this is pretty much forced and c5 creates problems for the development of the light squared bishop. After this black maybe has some options like qe5 and 0-0 that you guys can look at. qe5 may net him the bishop pair at the cost of further falling behind in development. 0-0 looks weak due to qb3+ and rd1.
I actually like the positions with black's queen "active" in the centre because we can attack it at some points with the three minor pieces and eventually our rooks. Our goal is possibly to use our development advantage to put pressure on his centre and maybe kingside while we keep his queenside hemmed in. He eventually will have to push his central pawns or go for some b6 maneuver and we have to be ready to chop off some pawns when they push and weaken themselves.
Delay moves like nc3 and 0-0 are also interesting with the idea of not allowing him qa5 check. nxc6 leads to an endgame with some winning chances but I prefer to keep the queens on the board. Queens are interesting :D The sharper nature allows us more chances to win.
Nc3 doesn't really save any tempi since black still has fxe4 nxe4 qa5+ and then the knight must block the check unless you want to play an ugly move like bd2 or kf1. exf5 looks strong to me. one possible line: exf5, nxf5, nxf5, qa5+, nc3, qxf5 c5! All this is pretty much forced and c5 creates problems for the development of the light squared bishop. After this black maybe has some options like qe5 and 0-0 that you guys can look at. qe5 may net him the bishop pair at the cost of further falling behind in development. 0-0 looks weak due to qb3+ and rd1.
I actually like the positions with black's queen "active" in the centre because we can attack it at some points with the three minor pieces and eventually our rooks. Our goal is possibly to use our development advantage to put pressure on his centre and maybe kingside while we keep his queenside hemmed in. He eventually will have to push his central pawns or go for some b6 maneuver and we have to be ready to chop off some pawns when they push and weaken themselves.
Delay moves like nc3 and 0-0 are also interesting with the idea of not allowing him qa5 check. nxc6 leads to an endgame with some winning chances but I prefer to keep the queens on the board. Queens are interesting :D The sharper nature allows us more chances to win.
I think these are good points. I will switch my vote from Nc3 to exf5.
I'm eagerly curious on what you guys are debating, I'm sure it's great stuff. Choose wisely and this game will be up for some interesting puzzles in the upcoming moves.
Question for the white team: I recieved a couple of PMs of guys wanting to join the white team. Should we allow these requests or not ? Please let me know.
An instructive comment for newcomers and learners on where we are:
At this point both white and black are debating whether if we want to continue the lines of the opening (Maroczy-Bind), or if we want to move out of the book right away -moving out of the book meaning: to start playing moves of our own-. If this is to happen, the game will then leave early game phase and initiate the fascinating stage of "middle game".
This would be the equivalent of you having finished your 2 fact 1 star build on a TvP game with say 2 tanks 4 vults and a dropship, and now you figuring out what is it you want to do with those units and how to gain an advantage.
Question for the white team: I recieved a couple of PMs of guys wanting to join the white team. Should we allow these requests or not ? Please let me know.
It says quite clearly in the OP that signups are open.
Hello TL, I finally decided to stop lurking your site for this thread. exf5 is a bad move that activates black's knight. Such a move would be doing our opponent a favor. exf5 would also weaken our center and strengthen black's. Nc3 is a far more logical choice as it develops our knight. Right now there are no major threats to worry about so we should just finish our development.
exams don't give me much time to do analysis, but I took a quick look at the more forcing moves and I don't think that there are too many pitfalls in just continuing development.
8.exf5 is pretty risky but it is a possibility from what I can see. Once 9.exf5 Nxf5 10.Bn4 eliminates the current Knight threat since his queen is trapped and 11.g5 will force him to get his knight out of harms way but I may be missing something. The downfall is loosing that center control
On the other hand 8.Nc3 looks like a strong move because now we would have some very serious control. After everything is traded it would help us secure a good position for the late game. IMO the strongest move. It just traps black in every direction. If I was light this would be my fear.
I don't like 8. Bxh6 Bxh6 because it looks like you are putting a restraint on you Queens movement which I don't like specially after you lost your rook. c4 Nd4 and e4 look hella vulnerable. You loose a lot of control that we have worked up in all the past moves.
8. Nxc6 looks interesting and is probably the one that is going to speed the game up the most. If it goes according to jfazz first line (which has a typo on 10. is Kc7 not Qc7) I guess the game is about putting pressure on him with the castles and if it goes according to his second line (which looks like the most probable) then the game is pretty much over, my fear is if it STARTS going according to that line but lightman does some shenanigan with the advantage we give him for those first couple of moves and we cant get it back.
My heart wants to play 8.exf5 or Nxc6 because I want an interesting game but I think Nc3 is the better choice, it's safer we got time and I don't want the game to end because I want to keep learning!
My vote goes for Nc3
I'm starting to get the hang of this one step at a time. If I missed something behind the proposed moves please bring it to my attention as I am trying to learn as much as possible from this game so that I can give some decent input on the next TL Chess Match.
I think all the variations lead to the same place. If 8. exf5, then Nxf5 9. Nxf5 Qa5+ 10. Nc3, like previously stated. 8. Nxc3 gives black a free move, and 8. ... 0-0 and black looks ok. How about 8. Qd2? This move threatens 9. Bxh6, winning a piece. If either 8. ... Nxd4 or Bxd4, then 9. Bxd4 N/Bxd4 10. Qxd4 0-0, and white controls the center. If the knight on h6 moves, then 9. exf5 ruins black's kingside pawn structure. If 8. ... f4, then 9. Bxf4 Nxd4 10. Bxh6 Bxh6 11. Qxd4 and again white has central control, and has won a pawn.
If 8. ... fxe4, then 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. Bxh6 Qxd2+ 11. Bxd2, forced. 11. ... Bxb2, forced if black wants to get some material back. 12. Bc3 Bxa1 13. Bxa1 0-0 14. Nd2 leaves the Bishop open on the powerful a1-h8 diagonal 14. ... Bf5 15. g4 and white gets two minor pieces for a rook and pawn. All of this variation is pretty much forced. After black's f5 bishop moves, white must play Be5 to stop black's rook from coming to f4, winning back the pawn after Nxe4. I generally prefer the two minor pieces to the rook and pawn, and I think from here white's plan is to use the a pawn as a battering ram to break apart black's queenside. After the knight takes on e4, white's pawns on c4 and g4 along with his e5 bishop and e4 knight provide dominant central control while Black's rooks are passive. He only has the open d file and the half open f file for his use, however, white's minor pieces work very cohesively and control ALL the squares on both files except for the 7th and 8th ranks.
I think that covers all of the reasonable moves for black after Qd2. If you find any others let me know.
8... Qb6. If he plays Qb6 then we are on the loosing end of every trade. He forces us to play exf5 and if he ignores f5 and goes for the Knight in d4 we are screwed.
Qb6 seems like a very odd move that can end up being very favorable for Black if played right under a lot of circumstances. Specially yours since that Qd2 move will end up being irrelevant and we loose the advantage.
8 ... Qb6 is not a good move for black since he is lining up his queen for a discovered attack.
9. Nb5 blocks the attack on the b2 square and attacks the queen simultaneously. If the queen moves to a safe square, say, 9. ... Qd8, then we play 10. Bxh6 for a free knight.
If the Queen looks to divert the queen's attack on h6 with Qa5, white simply trades queens and after 11. ... Nxa5 12. Nc7+ forks the rook and king. 12. ... Kd8 or Kf7, and 13. Nxa8. After 13. ... Bxb2 14. Bxh6 Bxa1, white has won a piece for a pawn, and after the pawn exchange 15. exf5 gxf5, black's pawn structure is ruined weak and white definitely has the advantage.
So I think Qb6 is definitely a weak response from black.
yeah, he asked for it in the OP. I've been guilty of not doing it myself, but just in general it is worth adhering to. Furthermore, it means that when responding to one person in particular, it saves everyone else from having to read it, because afterall, all this analysis can be rather time consuming!
the f4 jab. Then Bxf4, BxN, Bxh6, Qb6, Be3, Qxb2, Bxd4, Qxd4, Nc3, Qxd2, Kxd2, d6 and position looks approximately equal. White has a potentially weak c pawn but a space advantage and a slight initiative.
the f4 jab. Then Bxf4, BxN, Bxh6, Qb6, Be3, Qxb2, Bxd4, Qxd4, Nc3, Qxd2, Kxd2, d6 and position looks approximately equal. White has a potentially weak c pawn but a space advantage and a slight initiative.
On December 18 2009 16:39 jcu wrote: Ah okay. I get what you are saying now. But you can't play Bxd4 because i saced f4 pawn temporarily so your Bishop is now on f4 square.
Oh hmm I see. I think its ok for white then instead of playing Be3 to play Nc3 and return the extra the f2 pawn. After Bxf2+ Kd1, White can make use of the open f file and I feel that black is too underdeveloped to do anything about white's central king. White's development should put some pressure on black's central king, which cannot castle due to the h6 bishop. Black will be forced to move his bishop off of f2. If not immediately, then Nd5 and the black queen must go back to d8 (has to cover c7 from Nc7+, forking the king and rook. White will have a safe king, active pieces, and a strong initiative with equal material on the board.
In a very tense and exciting 2 day voting process 8. Nc3 wins.
You have chosen correctly, as this has been the first of many traps I intend to set all through the game. A wrong choice would have meant a merciless attack on my part. After the game is over I'll explain what I had in mind if you voted incorrectly.
I now respond with 8.... 0-0
next voting closes on Sunday.
Question for the white team.
I changed the sign ups to closed yet I still have 2 PMs of ppl wanting to join the white team. Should they be allowed ? or from now and on no more ppl joining white team ?
Me personally, I'd let them play, but it's your decision.
This move makes castling possible on either side for us, and pressures the night at h6. White could answer with 9...Nf7, but then 10.exf5 looks very strong. So 9...Ng4 looks most likely, but there too I think we are in good shape.
For me, it was between this and f3. For a while I thought that black moving the f pawn forward would be winning him a piece, however after we exchange of our knights off and move the bishop back, we should be in a decent position.
On December 19 2009 00:22 Arhkangel wrote: Light now that you mention the teams, I dont see my name in there I am not pro but I think I can contribute something.
As far as the 2 guys are concerned, I would let them join if my vote counts.
sorry buddy, I thought I had you in from before. now updated.
Alright, slightly weird idea I know. We give up the bishop pair and allow him some dark square initiative, notably along the a1-h8 diagonal or the c1-h6 diagonal:
11.exf5 Nxd4 12.Qxd4 Bxf5 13.Bf3
so what do we achieve? 1) pawn structure advantage. once we consolidate our position, we can pressure the d and e pawns, and in any endgame we have a very slight edge due to fewer pawn islands. 2)many weak squares in black's camp due to his haphazard pawn structure. we only have a weak d3 square, we have d5, e6, and altough he has a dark square bishop, his overall structure does create some dark square weaknesses. depending on how the d and e pawns move, we can get an outpost invinvible knight vs. wrong colour bishop in an endgame which would be a huge edge. 3)we would have a powerful f3 bishop hitting his queenside, where he has some difficutly offsetting its power. 4)we can quickly bring our rooks to the central files, pressurring the backwards e7 pawn.
if anyone is wondering, on Bg7, we play Qe3, which covers the knight, and starts our e-file buildup.
b)9...fxe4 10.Nxe4 Nf5 11.Nxf5 Rxf5 12.c5 (opening the diagonal against the black king) 12...Qc7 with some edge for white, owing to the space advantage and pressure against the d-pawn. The black king can quickly became a little exposed after we centralize our pieces to hit on the d and e pawns, who knows how we might wander over to the kingside
On 12...Bxb2 13.Qb3+ obviously. I think this line offers good squeezing opportunities.
c)9...Ng4 this move was actually a little confronting, and im not completely sold on my analysis. but i think that
10.exf5 Nxe3 11.fxe3 Nxd4 12.exd4 Rxf5 13.Rxf5 gxf5 14.Qd2 d6 gives us a very slightly better position with no losing chances. Its boring I know, but its super easy to play, and we get the usual space advantage and weak squares to exploit.
Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +
second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +
second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
This is not entirely true. After f4 Nxc6, black does not have to take back, because fxe3 captures a pawn and attacks white's queen. After white responds, bxc6 and black has just won a piece.
I don't mind playing vs TL for chess match 3 btw if no one else is in line. I won the Canadian youth championships twice for my respective age group so hopefully I can give you guys a good game although I'm rusty.
a1) 10. fxe4 Qb6 : attacking both the Knight on d4 and the pawn on b2 11. Ncb5 : only way to block both threats (The d4 knight can't move because the f pawn that was protecting the e3 bishop is gone) 11. ... Nxd4 12. Bxd4 Nxd4 13. Nxd4 Qxb2 and white has lost a pawn.
a2) 10. Nxe4 Nf5 : centralizes the knight and attacks d4 yet again. 11. Nxf5 : The f5 knight is too powerful. The only pawn that can kick it out is g pawn, which would leave white's kingside weak. 11. ... Rxf5 : and white has lost some central control. The g7 bishop will be a pain to deal with, and black's game is fine, if not good. 12. Qd2 Qa5 (Qc2 Qa5+ gives forces white to pull back one of his minor pieces, and gives Black free tempi) 13. Qxa5 Nxa5 and white's attacking potential has fizzled out. The b2 pawn is under attack, so ugly defending moves like Bc1 or Rb1 come to mind. 0-0-0 protects the pawn and allows white to use the kingside pawns to attack black, but the g7 bishop once again is too powerful and black's game is fine.
f3 also answers the threat of 9. ... f4 because white does not have to take the pawn on f4, but can retreat to f2. If this happens, then the Knight looks useless on h6 and will most likely move to e5 via f7 in order to give it some activity.
B)
9. Qd2.
Qd2 has been discussed already, and it seems like black's best response is f4. In the previous line I analyzed, f4 is ok for white because after Bxh6, black's king is stuck in the center and white has good compensation for his returned pawn. However, after 0-0, black's king is safe and he has the f file immediately for his use. So Qd2 is probably a mistake now.
C)
If it were black's turn, f4 would be good for him. 0-0 does not change this.
9. 0-0 f4 10. Nxd4 Nxd4 : forced, any bishop move hangs the d4 knight. 11. bxc6 Bd4 : blocking the g7 bishop's control of the diagonal. After this, black looks good to me, black has a strong central pawn structure, and can park his knight on the e5 square where it cannot be attacked by enemy pawns. If Qd5+ e5, black has an imposing center and white's game is cramped. White has no play for his rooks, and has a bad bishop. Black has the b file, and his mobility will allow him to dictate the game, perhaps with a kingside pawn storm after his king moves into his safe center.
If instead
9. ... Ng4, then after 10. Bxg4 fxg4 11. Qd2 and black comes out of the opening with a good bishop with nice targets on e4 and c4.
If 0-0 I think black comes out well. White will probably have to make a sacrifice to open up some lines if he wants to generate some activity.
Looking at these three lines, I think f3 counters black's threats of Ng4 and f4 most effectively. Thoughts?
On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +
second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
This is not entirely true. After f4 Nxc6, black does not have to take back, because fxe3 captures a pawn and attacks white's queen. After white responds, bxc6 and black has just won a piece.
On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +
second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +
second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
This will give f2 spot for the bishop on e3, so you dont have to worry about 9...f4. Which will deny the forced exchange of knights at "c6". g4 sqware will not be offered for the black knight on h6, so the knight will be almost blocked. in my opinion Black is in bad position after f2-f3 , his knight on h6 will be misplaced, his bishop on c8 is bloced, and his other bishop can't really leave a1-h8 diagonal, so White would prob. get large lead through the midgame.
If 9. Qd2 then 9... Ng4 and exchange the knight for one of white's bishops (since Bg5 look really stupid for me). Wich is good for black since the knight is in bad placement on h6
On December 19 2009 04:51 Soda wrote: Ok, so now I'm officially added to the team. Everyone who voted for 9. 0-0 is missing 9... f4 which wins our knight at d4. So first we must address the threat of the pawn push.
exf5 is still poor because it activates black's knight. f3 protects the pawn and gives the dark-squared bishop an escape square but makes our light-squared bishop weaker. However it will strengthen white's center so I think it's the best move. My vote is for 9. f3.
Ok first off, hide your analysis with spoiler tags like this + Show Spoiler +
second off, if he plays f4, we simple take his knight, threatening his queen. He has to take back. Then we just move our bishop back and we're in a great position. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with castling here.
This is not entirely true. After f4 Nxc6, black does not have to take back, because fxe3 captures a pawn and attacks white's queen. After white responds, bxc6 and black has just won a piece.
After Nxc6, Black does not have to take back the knight. He can play fxe3 instead (there is a bishop on e3). There is also a Q on d2 in this scenario, so the pawn would be attacking it. After the queen moves, bxc6 and we're down a piece.
I believe Athos is addressing the issue with Soda's initial analysis of 9. 0-0 vs 9. f3, while you (Incognito) are addressing 9. Qd2, which I had already posted an unaddressed issue on at the top of the page in one of the quoted spoilers.
Seems like black is behind on development. Perhaps we can open up the position with exf5 even now to exploit the difference and force black to defend. O-O is more solid play.
On December 19 2009 18:11 Ikari wrote: I believe Athos is addressing the issue with Soda's initial analysis of 9. 0-0 vs 9. f3, while you (Incognito) are addressing 9. Qd2, which I had already posted an unaddressed issue on at the top of the page in one of the quoted spoilers.
Chat on stream is welcome, occasional post game analysis might happen. But bear in mind while I might be a good person I'm most usually not a nice one.
If anyone replies here there's a chance I will not check.
PS: And no I cannot start a new thread because I just registered. I also am not IM Ng5 from ICC, I just stole his ID because I'm a bastard.
at this moment we have to quote Fez from That 70s Show on the episode called The Ice shack ....."the score is horribly tied":
0-0 - 5 votes Qd2 - 5 votes
f3 - 2 votes
the update will be in a few hours so I advise from all the 20 something registered players to vote in order to decide the outcome of this important move. If I was in white team I would hunt down the players that registered and haven't voted and shoot them in the head, twice. just kidding, once would do fine
remember next voting will close on Tuesday, so the more time you spend on a move the less time you'll have for next move.
If c4 wasn't played, I'd consider Qd2, to make it resemble common positions from 6 f4 vs the Sicilian Dragon, which is my favorite counter as white. Occasionally I'll go with 6 f3, but it depends on the opponent. Qd2 is best for getting ready to break the black's kingside with Bh6, or just to control the diagonal, but it also allows for queenside castling, which, in turn, allows for quite a decent kingside pawn push on the kingside for white. That pawn on c4 just doesn't sit right with me...
All these hotshots with their 1800+ ratings make me feel so lowly with my ~1300 USCF rating (though I play around a 1500 level now). However, that was from 7 years ago; I stopped going to tourneys after my senior year in highschool. However, I'm always up for some practice games if anyone wants to.
If any of you have an ipod touch/iphone, download the free app, Chess with Friends. We can play easily over that. It is no time limit, so you can play at your leisure.
I thought 6.f4 against the dragon had been refuted after that Nunn v Miles game, when black found you get an edge after Be7 instead of Bg7? Im sure I remember reading that in "New in Chess", when they did a special on the dragon after its heavy rise in popularity after its adoption by Radjabov and Carlsen for much of 2008.
To Shikyo; Read this and ill do my best to help: + Show Spoiler +
Id love to give you some analysis, but first please give me some move numbers. Do you want to play 9.Bxh6 or after something else? Is it a general plan, or a tactical ploy starting now? Once I know, ill give you an exact response.
On December 20 2009 20:22 jfazz wrote: I thought 6.f4 against the dragon had been refuted after that Nunn v Miles game, when black found you get an edge after Be7 instead of Bg7? Im sure I remember reading that in "New in Chess", when they did a special on the dragon after its heavy rise in popularity after its adoption by Radjabov and Carlsen for much of 2008.
As I said, it really depends on the opponent. The Yugoslav is a very risky counter, as there have been a lot of ways to stop the threat out. I remember 6... Nc6 being a very popular counter to it, protecting the d5 square, and often getting the knights to exchange, relieving some of white's center influence. Against more experienced players, I often do either 6 f3, which allows for more concentration on the sides, instead of the center, which f4 often challenges, or I'll do 6 Be3, as it was also widely accepted. Occasionally I'll do 6 Bc4, if I know my opponent likes to do an early Qc7, and then I just follow up with Bb3.
I'm sure you know more about this than I do, since most of my knowledge is based on my understanding from books that were coming out in the 90s (that's when I played competitively). It was very popular in D-class/C-class games, and it was one of my favorite counters, especially since I was still learning how to properly use KG at the time.
I guess we just look at it differently. Im a 1.d4 player as a rule, a 1.Nf3 player as an exception, so I don't really understand or enjoy the positions that come from 1.e4 Give me Petrosian and Kramnik all day long!
But just FYI, it doesn't really depend on your opponent, just on the sort of position your favour. The reason I give criticism to 6.f4 is that it is known to give no advantage to white.
without doublechecking numbes, it might be easiest and most satisfactory if the two votes for f3 simply recast a vote - that way no one voting for the mainline has to "flip-flop", and the guys advocating a sideline can at least own the decision, so they haven't been ignored.
a)10...bxc6 11.Bd4 d6 (Bxd4?) 12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.c5! winning the c5 square for our knight, and damaging black's structure even further. Our b-pawn can simply be guarded by playing b3 if necessary, and our position is awesome.
I don't think it was a 'mistake' but it does give white an edge. I think he is just trying to play as actively as possible, as Sicilian players are want to do. However, against a positional Maroczy, he might be making too many concessions for little gain, which could result in a horrid endgame for him
Right now I'm doing my analysis contemplating the positiion and what may be yours and my next move andd it occured to me:
for learning purposes and to contribute on a more sharper thread,
What do you think if I post along with my move, the analysis of what's going in my mind as I play, of course, I'd be in spoilers and you shouldn't click on it, unless I say you guys can.
for instance, right now I can post my analysis on moves 1 to 8, then when on my next move I post the analysis, and depending on how the game goes I can choose if either spoil it or not.
so long story short,
analysis that can be viewed by whtie team would be either posted publicly or spoiled with a comment saying that it can be clicked as it won't affect the game.
analysis that shouldn't be viewed by white team would be posted along its move but would have a warning on NOT TO OPEN, until a major update is done in the future.
I mean we're all gentlemen here right ?? so if I say DON'T read it yet, you would right ??
@ Lightman, post your analysis at bottom of OP. Probably easiest way to put it out of reach. We're playing by the honor system anyhow. At least for spoilers.
Might be best/easiest to wait for the end of the game, then post it all up? I have all my notes saved, so I can do the same at the end of the game if you like.
I really don't get why he decided to play ...f4. I'm not familiar with the Nh6 plan, but f4 doesn't really help out that Knight's future at all and it removes the central tension for no reason at all. Between the lack of c-file counterplay (and easily blocked b-file), exchange of the dark square bishops and the knight that's going to take a while to get anywhere useful, I think that it's already += at the very least.
Now that I look at it a bit more, maybe it's to secure the e5 square for his knight via f7? It'll still require a couple of tempi and meanwhile, we can play stuff like Nd5 or put pressure on the d-file.
Obviously, if 10... dxc6 11 QxQ RxQ 12 Bxf4, so that wouldn't occur. However, after 10... bxc6, releasing the e3-bishop, I am wanting to make sure of what is going to be coming next. We are expecting 11 Bd4, correct? Because, if 11 Bc5, then 11... d6 leading to either a bishop out of play, or 12 Bd4 anyways, thus leading to an opened diagonal for the black c-bishop. Also, will h3 be considered, to stop the black knight from getting into the game soon?
On December 20 2009 21:31 jfazz wrote: I guess we just look at it differently. Im a 1.d4 player as a rule, a 1.Nf3 player as an exception, so I don't really understand or enjoy the positions that come from 1.e4 Give me Petrosian and Kramnik all day long!
But just FYI, it doesn't really depend on your opponent, just on the sort of position your favour. The reason I give criticism to 6.f4 is that it is known to give no advantage to white.
Of course you are right. However the games I play nowadays are mostly just against friends. If I were still playing tourneys I'd be adhering to the idea of playing openings that lead to the positions you are comfortable with, but as it is, I play different openings depending on whom I am playing. If it is someone I have not played before, then I adopt the aforementioned philosophy, and stick to openings that lead to open positions, often ones that sacrifice a pawn or two for initiative, eg the Scandinavian, KG, and, dare I say, the Evans Gambit.
I would love to start maining 1 d4, but I do not have nearly as much time as I used to, for learning new lines. Currently, I'm reading up on different lines for Scandinavian, including the debatable Icelandic Gambit. Perhaps I'll use this time to learn some theory for white.
Evans Gambit is a very solid choice, you do get full comp for the pawn.
I never understood the draw of the Scandinavian - the idea is to transpose to harmless lines of the caro-kann (which as you all know, i love), while avoiding the pure exchange (fisher variation notably) and advance variations. That sounds good, but the b-pawn sacrifice line, the name of which escapes from me, is EXTREMELY dangerous, for the unprepared player - i think the caro is more solid (obvious really)
If you want to learn 1.d4, pick up either the london system, the colle or the veresov. All of them are easy to play and give comfortable positions, with out much theoretical knowledge required.
Thank you for your thoughts. I shall take your advice and find some choice books on the lines. Perhaps something will tickle my fancy. As far as the Scandinavian goes, I only recently starting practicing with it, and so haven't tried the b pawn sac as of yet. I used to be an advocate of the pirc, but as the years have gone, so has much of my ability to use it properly from disuse. I used to do the caro-kann, but I faced trouble from the advance variation, early in my playing years. I may look further into into now that I'm older. I'd like to further discuss some ideas you may have, elsewhere most likely, so as not to disturb the thread further, that give black good potential for for good Queenside castling, as I love kingside pawnstorms when possible as black.
Im not a very aggressive player as black, so I don't have a lot of attacking lines to offer sorry. In some variations of the caro you get opposite side castling, often in the mainline with 3.Bf5 or the advance variation with an early Bd3 (notably the 4.Bd3 or 4.c3 lines).
Some lines of the ruy lopez result in oppsoite side castling. Alternatively, the dragon sicilian gets opposite side castling with good piece play which you may enjoy.
usually, castling queenside is done because white has castled queenside, so that he cannot pawn storm you!
On December 21 2009 15:15 jfazz wrote: Im not a very aggressive player as black, so I don't have a lot of attacking lines to offer sorry. In some variations of the caro you get opposite side castling, often in the mainline with 3.Bf5 or the advance variation with an early Bd3 (notably the 4.Bd3 or 4.c3 lines).
Some lines of the ruy lopez result in oppsoite side castling. Alternatively, the dragon sicilian gets opposite side castling with good piece play which you may enjoy.
usually, castling queenside is done because white has castled queenside, so that he cannot pawn storm you!
thanks again for the reply.
The frequency of opposite castling is the main reason I embrace the dragon as white, and why I have a, perhaps misguided, tendency to play the Yugoslav or levenfish variations, in hopes of a pawn storm. I will have to read some books concerning the current theory as my play is apparently outdated. Thanks again
Well not "outdated", but in such sharp openings, there are constant improvements, seemingly every couple of weeks. Thats why I like quiet 1.d4 systems, the theory moves much more slowly!
It exposes your king side pawn structure for a very temperate attack.
White can 1. Nxc6 bxc6 2.Bd4 and your fianchettoed bishop becomes a liability. Losing this bishop removes a key component of your kingside defense, which you already compromised by 0. .. f4?!
Make sure to follow up a 1. Bxf4?! with 1. .. Nxd4. If 1. .. Rxf4, then Ne6 makes the Queen uncomfortable and wins the rook. 2. Bxh6 should be met with 2. .. Nxe2+. Any other second move in this line should be rather obvious.
It exposes your king side pawn structure for a very temperate attack.
White can 1. Nxc6 bxc6 2.Bd4 and your fianchettoed bishop becomes a liability. Losing this bishop removes a key component of your kingside defense, which you already compromised by 0. .. f4?!
Make sure to follow up a 1. Bxf4?! with 1. .. Nxd4. If 1. .. Rxf4, then Ne6 makes the Queen uncomfortable and wins the rook. 2. Bxh6 should be met with 2. .. Nxe2+. Any other second move in this line should be rather obvious.
Earth he wont read your spoiler, rules say he can't.
jfazz I would love to start working on d4 opening is there any books you recommend or some threads in other forums were this particular opening is discussed. It seems like the pace is right for me and has some risky moves wich are always fun to try playing online and with friends wich is what I play with mostly.
BTW I think Nxc6 can be posted. Start the discussion for the next move it's already Monday and I don't see anyone discussing the next move.
Light post your analysis after the game is done. If you and jfazz post your notes after the games I will love you long time.
The amount of options we have if he goes for this is stagering. I have issues with that move becuase every way I play it I can find a way for black to screw me over but he shouldn't. 10... dxc6 should be a bad move for black so I'm obviously missing something.
Arhkangel, I already posted a line in my analysis that is a forced win for white. Enjoy!
Tell me a little more about yourself, there a couple of different ways to play 1.d4.
For example, Topalov is super aggressive with 1.d4, as is Aronian or Alekhine.
Karpov and Kramnik are much slower, grinding players.
To give a more concrete example, take the Grunfeld defence - white has a great number of systems he can employ, depending on exactly how positionally he wants to play.
I like the central variation with Nf3, followed by Topalov's exchange sacrifice - this may seem at odds with my repetoire, but white gets SO MUCH positional compensation that it suits me perfectly. I like those sort of positions where black can only play a passive defense while white has a free reign to build up his position greadually.
For the super grinders (Kramnik, Petrosian and Karpov notably) there is the russian variation, with the super strong centre, active queen and bishops. Funnily enough it is named after them!
Then it is simple things like, do you allow a Nimzo-Indian, or do you instead decline and force a Queen's Indian? If its a Queen's Indian, what variation? Complex 4.Bf4 line (miles variation, scores well for white, but theroetically offers no example), aggressive 4.e3 (counter-intuitive that this gives the strongest attack!) or the mainline 4.g3 with a counter fianchetto? I like the Petrosian system personally, with 5.a3 (its more accurate than 4.a3, as in 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.Bd3 Bb7 5.a3 - by posting your bishop first, you do limit black's deployment slightly).
So, I can give some REALLY specific stuff if you let me know a little more about yourself I can even give a theory dump if you want
That said, books!
If you want a good place to start:
GETTING A TASTE: -John Cox: Starting Out 1.d4! A Repetoire for the Improving Player (the better one) -Richard Palliser, Play 1.d4
BUILDING A SOLID REPETOIRE: -Joe Gallagher, Play the King's Indian -Matthew Sadler, The Queen's Gambit Declined (probably the best book on this opening for theory) -Matthew Sadler, The Slav and Semi-Slav Defences (great 6.Qc2 section, or 6.Bf4, my favourites) -Jacob Aagaard, Starting Out: The Gruenfeld (amazing book, the best) -John Cox, Dealing with the 1.d4 deviations -Jan Pinski, The Benko Gambit (best book on this)
on top of that: -Mark Devoretsky and Artur Yusupov, Positional Play -John Emms, Simple Chess (a MUST buy for an improving player) -Neil McDonald, The Art of Playing Chess Move by Move -Jacob Aagaard, Excelling at Positional Chess -Alexander Baburin, Winning Pawn Structures -Alexander Kotov, Play Like a Grandmaster
And certainly get any collection of Petrosians best games, he is MUCH easier to follow than Karpov or Kramnik. To quote noted chess author Raymond Keene, "it is with the simplest of moves that Petrosian dispels his opponent's initiative, making it seem to the rest of us that our own world championship is just a few games away".
And white has a bind on the center. Black can't play an immediate d6 to free his bishop, and 11. ...e5 also closes off the g7 bishop's diagonal. Now the g7 bishop is doing nothing and black has to waste some moves to get it out. +=.
jfazz let me play some games with that information you gave me , it will help me analyze my playstyle more accuretly and I will be able to give you a much better answer. But to keep it short I am leaning towards the Russian style of play, I'm all about the grinding ever since I slow danced for the first time back in fifth grade :p [/joke]
I will see wich of those books i can get for Kindle right away the other I will have to wait for later this month when I'm visiting NY. Gotta hit B&N for some books will add the ones I can't get as eBooks.
Instead of 11.Bd4: 11.Bd2 g5 12.g3 fxg3 13.hxg3 Bf5
I think it addreses the e5 threat well and will screw Black position even more. It also weakens his King side a little wich right now is pretty solid. The only downside I see is giving his Knight another space to move to but it's not like there is a way we cant attack it without trading Bishops anyway. We are not loosing the c1-h6 line wich I think is very important
Not casting my vote just yet because knowing myself I'm probably doing something wrong :p
It makes sense Bd4 is the only sensible move. As I said earlier, Bc5 would lead to ...d6, opening black's c-bishop.
...e5 by black should not be a problem, as it will greatly weaken the d7 pawn, which would make Bc5, as it was noted earlier, a powerful move. Also, given the power of Black's fianchettoed bishop, playing e5 would greatly weaken its influence, and make bringing it back into the game all up to white. Since "our" bishops are already decently placed in common positions found throughout many Sicilian variations, as well as Pirc variations, there would be little reason to move them except if we were to take a more powerful position, such as Bc5, following ...e5. Thus, ...e5 would only weaken black's plans, and have little effect on "our" overall plan.
The only negative effects would be getting the white knight back into play. However, if black were to want his g7-bishop back in play, it would end up releasing our knight in some way.
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! I even took a little longer than what King gave us (I paused it as soon as I heard I will give you a chance to try and guess...). That was amazing. I thought he was going to play Ng2. That Queen was making me nervous :p
Back to the game what is wrong with the move i proposed? + Show Spoiler +
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! I even took a little longer than what King gave us (I paused it as soon as I heard I will give you a chance to try and guess...). That was amazing. I thought he was going to play Ng2. That Queen was making me nervous :p
Back to the game what is wrong with the move i proposed? + Show Spoiler +
I would say that Bd2 is inaccurate because it is too passive. The c1-h6 diagonal is not very critical given that there is a black pawn at f4 and the black knight will soon move. Our dark-squared bishop is not as good a piece as black's, so trading his off would be logical. Challenging black's g7 bishop with Bd4 is more active and trades off one of his good pieces. Bd2 makes our bishop passive while doing nothing to stop his bishop from staying active.
Playing Bd2 has multiple problems. First, it takes the bishop out of the advance, decreasing white's attack. Second, it is making e5 more of a viable move for black. This would further box in white's bishop, effectively taking it out of the game. You want you bishops outside pawn chains, and attacking as open diagonals as possible. The other options for the bishop would follow that last idea. Lastly, black's fianchettoed bishop is a key component of his position. He would not want it traded, so challenging it is best.
Blek. It was already explained above me :/ typing on an iPod takes forever
its forced. White trades black's best piece (its his only good one actually). This cements both weak dark and light squares in black's camp, (Black eventually has to play d6 to free high lightsquare bishop, because Ba6 sucks after b3, and then the c-pawn is a target)making a king and pawn endgame easily winning for us. The move ...e5?? fails to Bc5, and forever gives up control of the crucial d5 square, where our knight will eventually find residence. Obviously, I would want to trade light square bishops and give up our darksquare for his remaining knight, once the c-pawn is removed. Black's position is just garbage in anycase.
its forced. White trades black's best piece (its his only good one actually). This cements both weak dark and light squares in black's camp, (Black eventually has to play d6 to free high lightsquare bishop, because Ba6 sucks after b3, and then the c-pawn is a target)making a king and pawn endgame easily winning for us. The move ...e5?? fails to Bc5, and forever gives up control of the crucial d5 square, where our knight will eventually find residence. Obviously, I would want to trade light square bishops and give up our darksquare for his remaining knight, once the c-pawn is removed. Black's position is just garbage in anycase.
11. Bd4. Move that obviously sucks the least for our Bishop.
So after 11... Bxd4 12.Qxd4 ... What are black's next possible moves? 12... d6 to activate his last Bishop or can he delay that for something more favorable like for example e5? Since his Bishop doesn't really have anywhere to go.
What abuot 11. Bc5 d6 12. Ba3 Bxc3 13. bxc3 Qa5 14. Bb4 Qe5? Not very convincing if you ask me. After Bd4 we can pressure the d-pawn. There should be no central pawn break forthcoming from black, or at least it should be expensive.
I think we've come to a consensus, that 11... e5 would actually hurt black more than help. It makes his d-pawn a backward pawn, makes his g-bishop less powerful, closing its relatively open a1-h8 diagonal. Basically, by moving 11 Bd4, one way or another, we are going to be closing down that g-bishop's powerful diagonal. In fact, that is often the case in games like this. I feel that we could break in quite easily if black decides to take the bishop, so if anything, I predict the game would go 11 Bd4 d6 12 Bxg7 Kxg7 13 Qd4+ Kg8, or perhaps 13... Rf6 with the intent of 14... Qf8. The only problem here would be the lines that could come from playing 14 e5, threatening the rook and, once it moves, the possible 15 e6+. The move that would counter this, off the top of my head, 14... Re6, would end up blocking black's 2nd bishop, making it have to find other means of escaping.
Basically, I think 11 Bd4 allows for the best options. Once we subdue that g7 bishop, our attack will be much more solid.
11. Bd4 e5 12. Bc5 Re8 13. Nb5! (Pawn is tied down or else Qd5+ winning the Rook). From here, White has two excellent pieces that will be hard to boot out of their positions. Nd6 is threatened from White, and the pawn on a7 is threatened, with no logical way for Black to defend it (although taking it right now isn't the best move).
Black would be better off with d6 given that line.
I don't think 10... Nxe5 is the most likely response from black to 10. e5. That said, if the line you propose did in fact somehow come to pass, it would leave black in a strong position, controlling a1-h8 diagonal. The 12. Na4 move would place our knight in a useless place, away from the action, putting us further behind. It would certainly be much worse than the 10. Bxg7 Kxg7.
14. ... Qa5 spoils c5. While I still think Bxg7 is best, white has no really clear attacking options and will have to probably settle for a slightly better endgame with black saddled with two isolated pawns. Doesn't seem like normal aggressive Sicilian position.
I can see c5 being very useful, particularly since it opens up more attacking options for our white bishop. However, unless I am missing something, I think we have to play 13. b4 first to preempt 13... Qa5.
14. ... Qa5 spoils c5. While I still think Bxg7 is best, white has no really clear attacking options and will have to probably settle for a slightly better endgame with black saddled with two isolated pawns. Doesn't seem like normal aggressive Sicilian position.
White can allow d6 to be played as long as he can play c5, which as of now, he can. c5 does not give white the d4 square, because black can always kick white out with e5. c5 actually helps black get rid of his bad bishop with 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6, trading off the bishops and now we will have a hard time bringing down black's center after 15. Bxa6 Qxa6 16. Nc3 Rad8.
If black plays d6, he will have two weak pawns on d6 and c6, so white can allow d6. I was thinking 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4 d6 15. b5, which gives us the d4 square and begins to break apart black's center. After the c and b pawns go, we take control of the open b file and have pretty good chances. Our e4 and c4 pawns may need a little protection, but we still have the bishop to protect them. Any attempt to remove our powerful d5 knight will result in giving us a good bishop.
I agree completely with TanGeng's take on c5. Grabs space and prevents d6.
I don't see Qd2 as accomplishing anything other than attacking the pawn. Our Queen can't really do anything from d2 that it couldn't do from d1.
Incognito, my take on your analysis:
c5 does give White the d6 square. Here is my line on what happens if black plays d6: 13. c5 d6 14. Qd4+! (Absolutely crushing move for White here. It threatens Rd1 to win the d6 pawn from White. If Black takes at c5, our Rook has complete control over the open file.) e5 15. Qa4 and Black is in a rapidly deteriorating position.
As for your line on Qd2, why should we freely give the e5 square to Black? I like that check opportunity for White to force Black to make a weak move. As for your line, We could go for 13. b4 instead of 14. b4 and still reach the same result without the necessity of Qd2.
I agree completely with TanGeng's take on c5. Grabs space and prevents d6.
I don't see Qd2 as accomplishing anything other than attacking the pawn. Our Queen can't really do anything from d2 that it couldn't do from d1.
Incognito, my take on your analysis:
c5 does give White the d6 square. Here is my line on what happens if black plays d6: 13. c5 d6 14. Qd4+! (Absolutely crushing move for White here. It threatens Rd1 to win the d6 pawn from White. If Black takes at c5, our Rook has complete control over the open file.) e5 15. Qa4 and Black is in a rapidly deteriorating position.
As for your line on Qd2, why should we freely give the e5 square to Black? I like that check opportunity for White to force Black to make a weak move. As for your line, We could go for 13. b4 instead of 14. b4 and still reach the same result without the necessity of Qd2.
Hmm I thought I read that c5 will give us the d4 square... anyway, how does c5 give us the d6 square? Black still has a pawn on e7 that protects it. So we can't use that square for the knight immediately. Furthermore, the idea that black would play 13. c5 d6 is a fantasy. Black would instead play 13. ... Qa5 attacking our overextended c5 pawn. This move also allows the bishop to get traded off on a6 to black's benefit. After 14. Na4, black has several options, possibly Rb8, preparing to penetrate the queenside with a move like Rb4, after which we have problems. The other option, Ba6, trades off our good bishop for his bad one, like previously mentioned.
Oh and I think it would be ok for us to allow black to have the d6 square. After d6, c5 rips up his pawn center. The mere threat of c5 stops black from playing d6 because after c5, the black pawn would wish it were back on d7, where it is safe and the overextended c5 pawn can be assaulted and challenged by d6 at black's leisure.
After we take care of Rb8, black can further enter the game with Ne5, a great square for the knight. You mentioned that we shouldn't freely give the e5 square to black. That is partially true. However, it would be hard to control the e5 square given we have a wrong colored bishop and our knight is far away from that square. None of our pawns can attack that square immediately, so we can't really stop black from controlling that square. The only logical option would be to make black fill that square in a way that is less beneficial to him. In my previous example of black playing Rb8 and Ne5, the e5 knight is a well placed piece. We can't kick it out immediately, and moves like Qd4 are now weak, as it is black who has the superior development at this stage. A black pawn on e5 would deprive the knight of that square, and would strengthen our control of the d6 square, given that black can now no longer control it with a pawn. If black defends the f pawn with Ne5, then white now plays c5 with a better position than 13. c5 Qa5 because now white can defend the c pawn while attacking black's knight, which previously was not possible because of the threat of e5, refuting white's idea. Qd2 limits the best available option for black's knight, which works in our favor. c5 allows black to achieve the best position for his knight and gives us a hard time.
The reason I like Qd2 before b4 is that it stops Qb6, attacking the b pawn. If 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4 Qb6, Na5 protects the pawn while gaining tempo on the white queen. While this attack may be superficial and may not be worth it for black, Qd2 also helps serve another purpose, which is to limit the black knight's developing options. The Queen on d2 also allows for either rook to come to d1. I wouldn't say that Qd2 is a useless move. It is a multi-purpose move. The best purpose I think would be to stop the natural development of black's knight (which is his only currently active piece). It stops black from making his pieces active while allowing us to improve our position slowly. Rushing ahead with c5 is premature in my opinion.
a) 13.c5 e5 14.a3 Qe7 15.b4 a5 seems to give black too much, say 16.Qd2 Rd8 17.Na4 d5 and what advantage we had seems to have dissipated. We can play for a win without risk, but it isnt much. Surprising, I thought c5 would be best.
This offers a VERY good game for white positionally, and black is basically forced to go for a kingside assault, as any endgame is now losing. Black has weaknesses on a7, c6 and e5. We can defend via trading pieces now, and grind him out easily in the endgame.
13.Qd2 with c5 to follow soon for me, just seems overwhelming.
I think Black's general plan of action will be to put the queen on e7, move the knight to g5, and play f4-f3 with a kingside attack and play d6 later with tempo at the opportune time.
a) 13.c5 e5 14.a3 Qe7 15.b4 a5 seems to give black too much, say 16.Qd2 Rd8 17.Na4 d5 and what advantage we had seems to have dissipated. We can play for a win without risk, but it isnt much. Surprising, I thought c5 would be best.
This offers a VERY good game for white positionally, and black is basically forced to go for a kingside assault, as any endgame is now losing. Black has weaknesses on a7, c6 and e5. We can defend via trading pieces now, and grind him out easily in the endgame.
13.Qd2 with c5 to follow soon for me, just seems overwhelming.
Hmm, yes I think c5 allows black to undermine any queenside attack with a5, and the b4 pawn can't advance because of the hanging c pawn. Another thing to note is black's potential options including the pawn push f3. If the bishop and/or queen ever give up protection of the f3 square, then a black pawn move to f3 would force either gxf3 or g3, which both weaken our kingside. Especially if black's bishop is still on the board, this could cause us a lot of headache. Stopping the knight's move to e5 delays any option of black playing f3 because the knight blocks the rooks protection of the square.
To your b) line, I would see black playing 14. ... Qe7 instead of d6, which stops c5. Why would black allow us to play c5 and ruin his pawn structure without any compensation? After 14. ... Qe7, the only way I can see white going forward is Na4 preparing b4 and again threatening the pawn move to c5. Black can play Ng5, challenging our pawn at e4, after which the knight jumps to e6, a powerful post which once again stops c5 and prepares to jump into the d4 hole, locking us out of the d file. I think Qd2 is the right move, but 14. Rad1 would be slightly incorrect methinks.
I see what you're saying, and imma let you finish, but after 14...Qe7 15.Qc2 d6 (otherwise black's only plan is to try and play for d5, so Rd8 maybe) 16.c5 anyway 16...dxc5 17.Na4 c4 18.Qxc4 Be6 19.Qc3 Rad8 20.b3 with a better version of my line b) as black has not even been able to start kingside activity. Black will be forced into passive defense of his central weak pawns
On December 25 2009 10:46 jfazz wrote: To Incognito + Show Spoiler +
I see what you're saying, and imma let you finish, but after 14...Qe7 15.Qc2 d6 (otherwise black's only plan is to try and play for d5, so Rd8 maybe) 16.c5 anyway 16...dxc5 17.Na4 c4 18.Qxc4 Be6 19.Qc3 Rad8 20.b3 with a better version of my line b) as black has not even been able to start kingside activity. Black will be forced into passive defense of his central weak pawns
Instead of 15. ... d6, 15. ... Ng5 threatening f3. White can't play c5 right away because of the queen on e7. If white plays 16. Rd3 guarding the f3 square, then Ne6 and black once again stops c5. My point is that black does not have to play d6 immediately even if he eventually wants to. Right now, white's only active plan is to play c5, so black can take his time defending against that threat. Nf7-g5-e6 can be played since white has no other threats to counter that.
The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
I think the idea that black's center is weak is a misconception. It is only weak after black plays d6 AND he is defending passively. c5 allows black to defend actively and allows him to open the center to his advantage once his pieces are developed.
Black would not respond to 13. c5 with 13. ... e5, but with Qa5. Plus, moving the bishop to c4 weakens the f3 square, where black may want to push if he gets the chance. Also after some more thought I think trading bishops would be a bad idea for black. After all, bad bishops protect good pawns. Plus, Rb8 seems stronger because it develops a piece with tempo.
If c5 is supposed to close up the queenside, it does a poor job in doing so. After 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3, black plays Ne5, and after 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4!, black's rook enters the scene strongly. The only way it can be kicked out is with a3, which weakens the queenside and gives black a new target in the a3 and b3 pawns.
After this sequence, if 18. Bc4 exd6, the white queen can't take at d6 because the pawn on b3 is overloaded. 19. Qxd6? Nxc4 wins a piece for two pawns, black has good central control and white's knight and rooks are poorly placed while his queen is running from the black pieces. So white's only other option is 19. Nb2, protecting the c4 bishop and moving the knight off the a4 square since it has accomplished its purpose there. Black simply plays 19. Rf6, breaking the pin on the knight and defending d6 and the game looks pretty equal.
Going back to move 18, if white had moved the queen, say Qd1, then 18. ... exd6 19. Qxd6 Rxe4 20. Bd3 Nxd3 21. Qxd3 Bf5 and white seems to be on the defensive. If white trades queens with 22. Qc3+, black is still fine even though he has two isolated pawns. I see a draw here.
My contention would be that white wants to play on the queenside. The kingside is where black has his most powerful threat, the f4-f3 push. In the above sequence, black shows that he can afford to open up the center, where supposedly white wants to play. However, with a knight on a4 and two rooks on a1 and f1 doing nothing, white is a bit late on development and has a hard time taking advantage of black's "weak" center. Play in the center requires developed pieces. 13. Qd2 closes out black's knight (although we still need to discuss what white can do after black plays Qe7 and Ng5) and prepares to use our queenside pawn majority to generate some play there. After 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4, Black's knight and kingside rook are locked out of the queenside, giving white plenty of reason to want to attack there. Although the center may look weak, I think the knight and bishop help defend it adequately enough to a point where white should look elsewhere to find an attack. Namely, the queenside.
The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
I think the idea that black's center is weak is a misconception. It is only weak after black plays d6 AND he is defending passively. c5 allows black to defend actively and allows him to open the center to his advantage once his pieces are developed.
Black would not respond to 13. c5 with 13. ... e5, but with Qa5. Plus, moving the bishop to c4 weakens the f3 square, where black may want to push if he gets the chance. Also after some more thought I think trading bishops would be a bad idea for black. After all, bad bishops protect good pawns. Plus, Rb8 seems stronger because it develops a piece with tempo.
If c5 is supposed to close up the queenside, it does a poor job in doing so. After 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3, black plays Ne5, and after 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4!, black's rook enters the scene strongly. The only way it can be kicked out is with a3, which weakens the queenside and gives black a new target in the a3 and b3 pawns.
After this sequence, if 18. Bc4 exd6, the white queen can't take at d6 because the pawn on b3 is overloaded. 19. Qxd6? Nxc4 wins a piece for two pawns, black has good central control and white's knight and rooks are poorly placed while his queen is running from the black pieces. So white's only other option is 19. Nb2, protecting the c4 bishop and moving the knight off the a4 square since it has accomplished its purpose there. Black simply plays 19. Rf6, breaking the pin on the knight and defending d6 and the game looks pretty equal.
Going back to move 18, if white had moved the queen, say Qd1, then 18. ... exd6 19. Qxd6 Rxe4 20. Bd3 Nxd3 21. Qxd3 Bf5 and white seems to be on the defensive. If white trades queens with 22. Qc3+, black is still fine even though he has two isolated pawns. I see a draw here.
My contention would be that white wants to play on the queenside. The kingside is where black has his most powerful threat, the f4-f3 push. In the above sequence, black shows that he can afford to open up the center, where supposedly white wants to play. However, with a knight on a4 and two rooks on a1 and f1 doing nothing, white is a bit late on development and has a hard time taking advantage of black's "weak" center. Play in the center requires developed pieces. 13. Qd2 closes out black's knight (although we still need to discuss what white can do after black plays Qe7 and Ng5) and prepares to use our queenside pawn majority to generate some play there. After 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4, Black's knight and kingside rook are locked out of the queenside, giving white plenty of reason to want to attack there. Although the center may look weak, I think the knight and bishop help defend it adequately enough to a point where white should look elsewhere to find an attack. Namely, the queenside.
In your line not 17. cxd6 Rb4, but 17. Rac1 what follows is 17. ... Rf6 18. Rfd1 which completes white's plan of playing on the c and d files
I think 13. ... Qc7 is black's strongest response to 13. Qd2 with the centralizing Qe5 move to follow. After 13. ... Qc7 white's c5 becomes far inferior. It can no longer be considered because of Qe5
As black I would play 13. ... Qc7 against 13. c5 as well.
The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
I think the idea that black's center is weak is a misconception. It is only weak after black plays d6 AND he is defending passively. c5 allows black to defend actively and allows him to open the center to his advantage once his pieces are developed.
Black would not respond to 13. c5 with 13. ... e5, but with Qa5. Plus, moving the bishop to c4 weakens the f3 square, where black may want to push if he gets the chance. Also after some more thought I think trading bishops would be a bad idea for black. After all, bad bishops protect good pawns. Plus, Rb8 seems stronger because it develops a piece with tempo.
If c5 is supposed to close up the queenside, it does a poor job in doing so. After 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3, black plays Ne5, and after 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4!, black's rook enters the scene strongly. The only way it can be kicked out is with a3, which weakens the queenside and gives black a new target in the a3 and b3 pawns.
After this sequence, if 18. Bc4 exd6, the white queen can't take at d6 because the pawn on b3 is overloaded. 19. Qxd6? Nxc4 wins a piece for two pawns, black has good central control and white's knight and rooks are poorly placed while his queen is running from the black pieces. So white's only other option is 19. Nb2, protecting the c4 bishop and moving the knight off the a4 square since it has accomplished its purpose there. Black simply plays 19. Rf6, breaking the pin on the knight and defending d6 and the game looks pretty equal.
Going back to move 18, if white had moved the queen, say Qd1, then 18. ... exd6 19. Qxd6 Rxe4 20. Bd3 Nxd3 21. Qxd3 Bf5 and white seems to be on the defensive. If white trades queens with 22. Qc3+, black is still fine even though he has two isolated pawns. I see a draw here.
My contention would be that white wants to play on the queenside. The kingside is where black has his most powerful threat, the f4-f3 push. In the above sequence, black shows that he can afford to open up the center, where supposedly white wants to play. However, with a knight on a4 and two rooks on a1 and f1 doing nothing, white is a bit late on development and has a hard time taking advantage of black's "weak" center. Play in the center requires developed pieces. 13. Qd2 closes out black's knight (although we still need to discuss what white can do after black plays Qe7 and Ng5) and prepares to use our queenside pawn majority to generate some play there. After 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4, Black's knight and kingside rook are locked out of the queenside, giving white plenty of reason to want to attack there. Although the center may look weak, I think the knight and bishop help defend it adequately enough to a point where white should look elsewhere to find an attack. Namely, the queenside.
In your line not 17. cxd6 Rb4, but 17. Rac1 what follows is 17. ... Rf6 18. Rfd1 which completes white's plan of playing on the c and d files
I think 13. ... Qc7 is black's strongest response to 13. Qd2 with the centralizing Qe5 move to follow. After 13. ... Qc7 white's c5 becomes far inferior. It can no longer be considered because of Qe5
As black I would play 13. ... Qc7 against 13. c5 as well.
Hmm, 17. Rac1 with the idea of blocking Rb4 with Rc4? I dont have an actual board with me right now, so can someone check this for me? If white blocks Rb4 with either Rc4 or Bc4, how does black do with Be6? If Be6 works for black, then Rac1 wouldn't do much to stop Rb4. Unless you had a different intention for 17. Rac1.
Anyway, if 13. ... Qc7 makes c5 inferior, how does playing c5 first make it not inferior? And how is c5 after Qc7 inferior? I guess I don't understand the idea. If it is inferior because Qe5 controls c5, Qe7 could do the same thing. The queen and the knight can't both be on e5, so if Qe5 the knight would probably have to come to e6 via g5. If 14. Rac1 Qe5 15. Na4 Ng5 16. Qd3 (guarding f3) Ne6 17. Rfd1 Nd4 locking us out of the d file again. I guess I'm lost on how Qe5 makes c5 inferior. I think the knight would be better on e5 with the Queen on e7 for black. Although you could make an argument for the queen on e5. But, if black ever wants to shut white out of the d file with a knight on d4, it would be better for black to have a pawn on e5.
Let me go back for a second to a line without black playing Ne5. My new Idea for black is that he should not allow white's queen into the d4 square, and should try to claim that square to lock white out of the d-file with moves like e5, Nf7-g5-e6, and Rb4. What about 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3 Rb4! denying white's queen the d4 square. If instead of b3, Qd4+, e5 and white has lost tempo. So after 15. ... Rb4, white will probably play the moves Bc4, Rac1, and f3 while black plays e5, Rf6 (to keep the queen out of d6) and Ng5-e6. If black decides to trade off his bishop at any point with Ba6, he should have a good game with all the resources he has piled up on the d4 point.
Again I don't have a board so if you might have to check my variations.
The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
I think the idea that black's center is weak is a misconception. It is only weak after black plays d6 AND he is defending passively. c5 allows black to defend actively and allows him to open the center to his advantage once his pieces are developed.
Black would not respond to 13. c5 with 13. ... e5, but with Qa5. Plus, moving the bishop to c4 weakens the f3 square, where black may want to push if he gets the chance. Also after some more thought I think trading bishops would be a bad idea for black. After all, bad bishops protect good pawns. Plus, Rb8 seems stronger because it develops a piece with tempo.
If c5 is supposed to close up the queenside, it does a poor job in doing so. After 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3, black plays Ne5, and after 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4!, black's rook enters the scene strongly. The only way it can be kicked out is with a3, which weakens the queenside and gives black a new target in the a3 and b3 pawns.
After this sequence, if 18. Bc4 exd6, the white queen can't take at d6 because the pawn on b3 is overloaded. 19. Qxd6? Nxc4 wins a piece for two pawns, black has good central control and white's knight and rooks are poorly placed while his queen is running from the black pieces. So white's only other option is 19. Nb2, protecting the c4 bishop and moving the knight off the a4 square since it has accomplished its purpose there. Black simply plays 19. Rf6, breaking the pin on the knight and defending d6 and the game looks pretty equal.
Going back to move 18, if white had moved the queen, say Qd1, then 18. ... exd6 19. Qxd6 Rxe4 20. Bd3 Nxd3 21. Qxd3 Bf5 and white seems to be on the defensive. If white trades queens with 22. Qc3+, black is still fine even though he has two isolated pawns. I see a draw here.
My contention would be that white wants to play on the queenside. The kingside is where black has his most powerful threat, the f4-f3 push. In the above sequence, black shows that he can afford to open up the center, where supposedly white wants to play. However, with a knight on a4 and two rooks on a1 and f1 doing nothing, white is a bit late on development and has a hard time taking advantage of black's "weak" center. Play in the center requires developed pieces. 13. Qd2 closes out black's knight (although we still need to discuss what white can do after black plays Qe7 and Ng5) and prepares to use our queenside pawn majority to generate some play there. After 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4, Black's knight and kingside rook are locked out of the queenside, giving white plenty of reason to want to attack there. Although the center may look weak, I think the knight and bishop help defend it adequately enough to a point where white should look elsewhere to find an attack. Namely, the queenside.
In your line not 17. cxd6 Rb4, but 17. Rac1 what follows is 17. ... Rf6 18. Rfd1 which completes white's plan of playing on the c and d files
I think 13. ... Qc7 is black's strongest response to 13. Qd2 with the centralizing Qe5 move to follow. After 13. ... Qc7 white's c5 becomes far inferior. It can no longer be considered because of Qe5
As black I would play 13. ... Qc7 against 13. c5 as well.
Hmm, 17. Rac1 with the idea of blocking Rb4 with Rc4? I dont have an actual board with me right now, so can someone check this for me? If white blocks Rb4 with either Rc4 or Bc4, how does black do with Be6? If Be6 works for black, then Rac1 wouldn't do much to stop Rb4. Unless you had a different intention for 17. Rac1.
Anyway, if 13. ... Qc7 makes c5 inferior, how does playing c5 first make it not inferior? And how is c5 after Qc7 inferior? I guess I don't understand the idea. If it is inferior because Qe5 controls c5, Qe7 could do the same thing. The queen and the knight can't both be on e5, so if Qe5 the knight would probably have to come to e6 via g5. If 14. Rac1 Qe5 15. Na4 Ng5 16. Qd3 (guarding f3) Ne6 17. Rfd1 Nd4 locking us out of the d file again. I guess I'm lost on how Qe5 makes c5 inferior. I think the knight would be better on e5 with the Queen on e7 for black. Although you could make an argument for the queen on e5. But, if black ever wants to shut white out of the d file with a knight on d4, it would be better for black to have a pawn on e5.
Let me go back for a second to a line without black playing Ne5. My new Idea for black is that he should not allow white's queen into the d4 square, and should try to claim that square to lock white out of the d-file with moves like e5, Nf7-g5-e6, and Rb4. What about 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3 Rb4! denying white's queen the d4 square. If instead of b3, Qd4+, e5 and white has lost tempo. So after 15. ... Rb4, white will probably play the moves Bc4, Rac1, and f3 while black plays e5, Rf6 (to keep the queen out of d6) and Ng5-e6. If black decides to trade off his bishop at any point with Ba6, he should have a good game with all the resources he has piled up on the d4 point.
Again I don't have a board so if you might have to check my variations.
What I was trying to say is that c5 is valid now because white is still one step ahead of black at the moment. White will have a hard time getting c5 off if the moment is not seized.
Qe5 attacks e4 and c5. Knight can't move the only good defense is b4 and black's a5 comes quickly after.
Firstly, white is much better now. We can play for a win without risk once the Queen's come off, and with the queen going to c7 (e7 was more accurate as mentioned by an earlier poster), that will soon be the case. Why? Because Nd5 hits the queen, undermining the f4 pawn, which is attacked by our queen - thus, if c5 is played in the near future, we play Nd5, black has to move his queen, and we take the pawn and exchange queens - black has to exchange queens or he loses two tempi back to back moving his queen to avoid exchanges.
So, we can say with complete knowledge that c5 is unplayable for some time.
Looking at Black's position, lets start with the structural considerations. He has an a-file isolani, that may be weak in the endgame. While he has an open b-file, that is irrelevant once we play b3, and the a-file push is not scary because Nc3 covers the threat. The knight is only moving if d5 becomes available, and if it does, the initiative that will grant us will prevent queenside counterplay indefinitely. So we are strong on the queenside.
Black currently has a stong centre, but it isnt advanced into the "Sicilian small centre" as Karpov referred to it in his book, by the same name (highly reccomended read for any player who uses structures with pawns on d6 and e6, so nimzo/QID players as well!). Black probably wants to play for a centre with c5, d6 and e6. This nabs the d4 square which is significant in an endgame, but also covers the d5 weakness. However, it also makes a big weakness on an open file, that our major pieces can exploit, so while it is nice for an endgame, it may never happen. More likely may be c5, d6,e7, but then he has significant lightsquare weaknesses, including d5 and maybe even e6 (wouldnt that be nasty!). The key to prompting that sort of structure, which is at least rook and knight resistant, is d-file pressure, so that the e-pawn is locked to defending the d-pawn.
The kingside is sorta irrelevant at this point. Black's king is a little airy, but there is little we can do to attack without advancncing our own kinside pawns, which we do not want to do - it gives too much counterplay. We just need to play f3 or pehaps Bf3 (I prefer f3 to bring the bishop to the queenside at some point). With our light square strategy, it is not a great piece, and I would like to exchange it off at some point. It will be a little passive in an endgame, and the weaknesses in blacks poisition may knight play more enticing.
So what are our plans? 1)shore up the kingside play, to promote queenside play where black has more difficulties 2)to tie black down to d-file defence, to limit his central pawn formation to an ineffective, but easily defended one. 3)try to trade our lightsquare bishop for his knight. In an endgame, even though our pawns will be on lightsquares, his bishop will be very inneffective, give the base of our chains are a2 and g2, and thus only vulnerable on the backrank - so covered by rooks.
I would like to start with the d-file pressure, as c5 isnt a necessary move for us JUST yet (it will be), due to the aforementioned knight fork. Thus, Rad1 (we might double on the f-file, but we may also need a rook on the e-file, for when we intend th eother central advance to really squish black. If he plays for e5 in lieu of c5, his knight will be stuck defending the e5 pawn, so after c5, Bc4 is menaced, and we can trade the piece by force. Nasty!
So its simlple really. Rad1 to tie down the black pieces a little, then respond to black as necessary. Plaay b3 to meet Rb8, f3 to meet any kingside advance, c5 to meet e5 and Nd5 to meet c5. This is strong positional play, not passive play, because we are not reacting to threats you see. Whenever blac tries to go active, we will be taking positional advantages. Eventually, black will be optimized in a compromised fashion, and we can move by move force him backwards.
We really have a great position.
14.Rad1 (need to see analysis for why this prevents c5 fully)
14. B4 nice to see a move i thought of as being "this is what i would do" be something people are voting on i want to close off that queen's left side(for us) diagonal.
If we play 14.b4 we are going into "reaction mode" which we shouldn't right now. We still have a chance to get a better position before we start fending off black's attacks.I honestly feel that our last move wasn't very strong and playing 14.b4 would be our first mistake this game.
lightman quick question. What website or program are you using for the board? I'm having a hard time finding someway to play against myself without having to play all 14 moves again every time I want to try out a new move or visualize a proposed line.
my thoughts on this position is rfd1 isa solid move .. or b4 is as well .. black most likely will respond with ne5 on rfd1 and look for an f3 timing push to disrupt the kingside pawns so watch out for that if b4 is played you must be prepared for rb8 and any pressure on the b file a likely line is rd1 ne5 qd4 kg8 b4 rb8 and after rb8 i am considering b5 ?! but will give the position more consideration .. if i am allowed to participate in this do not know if i am too strong for that to be fair.. what is the strength of the opposition ???
scratch that last post after rd1 ne5 qd4 kg8 b4???? f3 !!!!! is possible so after kg8 w may have to play f3 as a prophalactic to the b f3 i know its passive but i cant find an active prevention
chessmaster, i suggest you use spoiler tags so lightman doesnt read your analysis and look through it for better lines for black. The rules say he cant look in spoilers (as per honor system). Just put your vote of the move outside of the spoiler (although there is a team that makes the votes, so giving input they may consider is something to add).
Hmm yes after qc7 I think I like jfazz's analysis. Dont have a board or too much time to think about it now but I'll vote for Rad1. Need to know what black is going to do first before jumping to forcing moves. We need a further sense of what his plan is so we can counter.
On December 28 2009 12:12 chessmaster wrote: i am a fide master with 1 im norm .. i would be happy to play a match as well
for being a fide master you don't appear to be pretty smart at reading in the rules that your analysis should be tageed in spoilers, also not polite on respecting anyone's opinion on kramnik being the best player ever
it comes down to if b4 is premature or not .. if it isn't it is a good positional move ..... a5 cannot delay b4 at the moment as there is a tactic protecting it ..rfd1 a5 a3 rb8 b4 !!! axb axb and if rxb4 then nb5 is a discovered attack on the rook while the knight hits the queen winning the exchange .. this too me is the most critical line to observe whether b4 gets delayed now this is minimal analysis i must add but it appears b4 cannot be delayed with a5 unless i am missing a quiet move from black ... rad1 is a solid move it appears ... .. but b4 can also be directly played on this move as i just showed the b4 pawn is immune to capture so rb8 isnt a threat in itself for instance b4 rb8 and now we can play a free move as rxb4 isnt possible to the above mentioned tactic another line could be b4 rb8 rab1ne5 now comes a critical choice if rfd1 then we must be prepared to meet f3 !!! one interesting line .. .... b4 rb8 rab1 ne5 rfd1 f3 gxf nxf bxn rxb qd4+ e5 qc5!! rxc3 qe7+ wins no matter what b does kh6 kg8 or kh8 we play rd6 and win outright to various tactics .. if your goona make the claim b4 cant be played please show analysis why
oh sorry i think i just figured out how to use the spoiler tags these are my first posts here sorry if thet last post was not don ecorrectly problem solved for future posts
Lol chessmaster fail spolers! Edit all your posts to add in spoilers. Select all the text and then click the little [S] Icon that should work.
Dude are you seriously a FIDE Master? BTW It's not your skill that wont let you play it's the fact that the team sigups are already closed Maybe we can play against you next time. I would love to see lighamn and jfazz playing on the same team against you.
Keep giving us you analysis thou it's great to have more opinions.
yeah im a fm no biggy though /i am convinced b4 is playable another line could go .. b4 ne5 qd4 d6 ?(f3 is critical line though) c5 (dxc qxc gives white a small edge ) be6 rfd1 rad8 b5 !!!! is an awesome resource !!! giving white a small edge i will have to provide analysis on f3 instead of d6 here before i can be certain
ahh i am stupid f3 instead on d6 transposes into my other analysis on f3 that i made on my failed spoiler post as it doesnt change anything if the a pawns are on the board ...
can't help but feel that the f rook should be on d1 since the a rook might want to go to c1 as well. I'm not liking the winning chances in this position but draws are likely.
I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?
I think we would do better preparing for some sort of f3 push, either immediately or right after black opens up the d7 field so he can activate his bishop. Perhaps we can play 15. f3? Is that too paranoid? Is it not worth the risk of opening up the black diagonal to the king?
I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?
I think we would do better preparing for some sort of f3 push, either immediately or right after black opens up the d7 field so he can activate his bishop. Perhaps we can play 15. f3? Is that too paranoid? Is it not worth the risk of opening up the black diagonal to the king?
I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?
I think we would do better preparing for some sort of f3 push, either immediately or right after black opens up the d7 field so he can activate his bishop. Perhaps we can play 15. f3? Is that too paranoid? Is it not worth the risk of opening up the black diagonal to the king?
I don't think we get an advantage with Qd4 at the moment (though I don't think it's bad), and we don't seem to have any other attacking lines or options. Maybe we can get something more interesting later on by exploiting Black's king position then. So I say it's time to wait and turtle!
I think white is starting to get some pull now. + Show Spoiler +
But what to do?
Starting off, what is black attempting...he now has some nagging pressure against c4, and Black has now taken control of the f3 square, so he could attempt some sort of kingside assault in the near future.
Thats not a huge deal, as an open g-file could benefit us greatly.
It took me a while to find this move, but it is important to cut down Black's counterplay (it prevents the Black queen from coming quickly to the kingside), and also threatens 20.Nd5! hitting the queen, and if cxd5 Qxd5+ wins the rook on a8. So...
b)15...Rb8 16.c6 d6 17.cxd6 exd6 This is a more accurate way to play for black. White has a myriad of options, and the game is still on. I would probably want to play some consolidating moves, leading to play against the exposed pawns on the c and d files. We would have a nice, lagging initiative.
c)15...Ba6
Black intends to finish development, and accept the slight inferiority of his position. Black will hold with accurate play, but white can quickly strip him of active possibilities.
Black has lots of options. I don't think we have significant winning chances from this position, but we are really solid and safe. If we wanted bigger winning chances, we could play more actively at move 17.f3 - we could instead play 17.Qd4 d6 18.f3 (required i would think) with similar play anyway, but perhaps more chance for black to go wrong.
Other tries at move 15 for white: 1) 15.b3 is a little passive, and the move isnt true propylaxis. It is better to wait until black commits pieces to attacking on the b-file, so eat up his time before playing this move. It isnt a bad move at all, and we will often play it anyway, but we can be more productive at this point.
2) 15.Qd4 is probably very similar to my line c). There are distinct, independant lines, but they revolve around black trying to whip up an attack.
I think the only acceptable moves that we can play are those that meet the ...f3 threat. Qd4 does this temporaily, f3 permanently, and Kh1 indirectly (it makes such a push good for us).
Im sticking wit Kh1, but Qd4 is acceptable as well.
I thought that 15.b3 would be our best aggressive approach but it's not right just yet and Qd4 just doesn't sit well with me. If we play Qd4 black has a lot more ways to draw the game than we have to win it.
A. 15. b3, perhaps most likely answered with 15... f3. 16. gxf3, Nxf3 17. Bxf3, Rxf3 18. Qd4+ likely followed by either A1: 18... e5 19. Qc5, Rxc3 is tempting, capturing a knight. However, 20. Rd6 would give us a major advantage and put black into a real mess. A2: 18... Kg8. The we could play 19. Kd5, and black is getting in trouble pretty fast.
Conclusion: I like it a lot vs. f3, and does no harm vs. other moves as far as I can tell.
B. 15. Kg1 I think 15... f3, following the line set up by jfazz above likely leads to 18. Qd4+ Kg8 19. e5 and maybe Rb8. 20. Ne4, Qa5 21.a3, Qb6 setting up a likely queen exchange. Our position is not bad, but I don't think we get much more than a draw. Black has a decent pawn structure, two active rooks and the king is slightly closer to the middle of the board.
Conclusion: I think this will lead us pretty safely to a draw, unless black makes a major blunder.
C. 15. f3 ... Qb6+, then 16. Rf2 or 16. Kh1 - they both look pretty similar to me. White has a good, solid position but no real opportunities to attack.
Conclusion: safe move which seems to lead to a more complex ending than variant B - since there is no immediate queen exchange. Draw is likely but more room for surprises, good or bad.
D. 15. Qd4 then 15... Rb8 is fine but does not accomplish much after 16. b3 and maybe 16.... d6?
Conclusions: seems fine to me (I had missed obvious things before, thanks ikari and tangeng) but not stellar.
Sooo.... after wasting way too much time staring at the board to decide on one vote for one move in one of TL's chess games, I've decided to try to play b3 and try to bait black a bit. Of course, he might be reading the spoilers, but then again b3 should do no harm anyway.
For some reason I don't like Kh1. After the moves mentioned by jfazz I feel that black's bishop becomes too powerful on the a8-h1 diagonal, which will now be devoid of pawn cover. Also what would happen if after Qd4+ black played e5 or Kh6? If white continues on the path mentioned with e5, black could then play Bb7, which forces our queen off the a8-h1 diagonal into passivity and protects his rooks simultaneously. The bishop would also be ready to give a discovered check the next move which would be nasty for us. The point of e5 or Kh6 being that now Qd5+ doesn't fork the rooks and king, allowing black to move Bb7 with tempo. At the moment my gut feeling is that f3 would be solid, but again I don't have too much time or a board on my hands to give a variation. F3 would stop black's kingside counterplay and would allow us to concentrate on the center. Letting black trade down by playing f3 himself doesnt seem like the best option to me at first glance.
Incognitio, can you address a specific line or even write out your specific analysis? All I am really getting is that you give blakc the best possible position and white a passive one - while that is possible, I would really need to see the specific movelist to see how it would come to pass.
*reason why we shouldn't b3 yet* IMPORTANT -> CITI.ZEN + Show Spoiler +
You said "C5" like it's an automatic response to Qd4... but that leaves open Nd5 or Nb5 and his queen dies and we are in favorable position if he wants to trade with something like Nd5 cxd4 nxc7 or nb5 cxd4 nxc7 it doesnt really matter... he will probably then move his rook to the b square and we could THEN do the b3 or b4 like everyone is so eager to do
On December 29 2009 15:45 Bill Murray wrote: *reason why we shouldn't b3 yet* IMPORTANT -> CITI.ZEN + Show Spoiler +
You said "C5" like it's an automatic response to Qd4... but that leaves open Nd5 or Nb5 and his queen dies and we are in favorable position if he wants to trade with something like Nd5 cxd4 nxc7 or nb5 cxd4 nxc7 it doesnt really matter... he will probably then move his rook to the b square and we could THEN do the b3 or b4 like everyone is so eager to do
In my last post I did not mention c5 as a reply to Qd4. In fact, once I sat down with a board I recognized I had missed obvious problems with that move and thanked those who pointed that out.
well, i have a tendancy not to read 5 paragraphs give me a line and ill look at it. i see where u said that now i had just read + Show Spoiler +
"I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?"
so i thought u were going to respond like that, and i was just saying, that's not what he would do that would actually give us a very favorable position, something that seems hard to come by with the board ive been looking at
A. 15. b3, perhaps most likely answered with 15... f3. 16. gxf3, Nxf3 17. Bxf3, Rxf3 18. Qd4+ likely followed by either A1: 18... e5 19. Qc5, Rxc3 is tempting, capturing a knight. However, 20. Rd6 would give us a major advantage and put black into a real mess. A2: 18... Kg8. The we could play 19. Kd5, and black is getting in trouble pretty fast.
Conclusion: I like it a lot vs. f3, and does no harm vs. other moves as far as I can tell.
B. 15. Kg1 I think 15... f3, following the line set up by jfazz above likely leads to 18. Qd4+ Kg8 19. e5 and maybe Rb8. 20. Ne4, Qa5 21.a3, Qb6 setting up a likely queen exchange. Our position is not bad, but I don't think we get much more than a draw. Black has a decent pawn structure, two active rooks and the king is slightly closer to the middle of the board.
Conclusion: I think this will lead us pretty safely to a draw, unless black makes a major blunder.
C. 15. f3 ... Qb6+, then 16. Rf2 or 16. Kh1 - they both look pretty similar to me. White has a good, solid position but no real opportunities to attack.
Conclusion: safe move which seems to lead to a more complex ending than variant B - since there is no immediate queen exchange. Draw is likely but more room for surprises, good or bad.
D. 15. Qd4 then 15... Rb8 is fine but does not accomplish much after 16. b3 and maybe 16.... d6?
Conclusions: seems fine to me (I had missed obvious things before, thanks ikari and tangeng) but not stellar.
Sooo.... after wasting way too much time staring at the board to decide on one vote for one move in one of TL's chess games, I've decided to try to play b3 and try to bait black a bit. Of course, he might be reading the spoilers, but then again b3 should do no harm anyway.
15. F3 Qa5 16. g3 g5 17. h4 h6 18. Kh1 d6 19. Rg1 Qc5 20. b4 Qe3 21. gxf4 Qxf4 22. Qxf4 Rxf4 23. hxg5 then hope he makes a mistake. even if he trades at 21. and 22. we will still be in a good enough position to not lose
i can't stress enough how much better rf1d was than rad1 ,, but to late now ... in the current position f3 is a little passive but at first glance playable , it appears to go together with a plan of a slower build up of our q-side position with b3 and solid moves aimed a q-side expansion . so f3 is just a prevention to stop black counter play before we begin our own q-side play .." but " after the inexactitude of rad1 im not sure if w can afford a slow move like this or not... imo the critical question i would ask is ..is qd4 an active, playable, prevention to f3 . if so it most likely is the better move at this point... i will consider the position from this perspective and provide some analysis i have a little freetime today
Why are people complainig about the moves being passive? All of the possible moves are passive, we just need to decide wich one is better for us...
If we are going to start palying more aggresively then we need to get our K out of that line. Way to vulnarable and a check in the middle of a blitz is like pressing the brakes.
if someone will actually endorse a good move, i would be more than willing to go with it. i personally wouldnt do Qd4, Kh1, or b3 but will side with the lesser of the evils. Looks like we're going to get more time to think about this.
I don't know if it's directed at me or not but I was thinking we can eventually get away with a f3 defense of of e4 so the Rfd1 would allow Rac1 for a defense of the c pawn should that situation ever arises. I also don't think the position is as solid as you think it is. I also tend to play more cautiously so I'm not adverse to some of the more passive plays.
15. b3 was analysed by citi.zen, but I don't see how we are winning after the knight sacrifice in one of the lines. If that is cleared up, I would definitely play 15.b3. 15. Kh1 is okay, but I think removing the threat of Black moving f3 first should be considered first since Kh1 may not even do anything. We can play 16. Kh1 next move. 15. f3 is also okay, not my favorite of moves, but choosing the lesser of evils, this is probably the best option. Although there is an open diagonal, it can be challenged by our queen, and also makes 16. Kh1 a viable choice next move. 15. f3 removes the threat of black moving to f3, which if black does, then that may create an open g-file and a contained bishop, which we don't want.
15. b3 was analysed by citi.zen, but I don't see how we are winning after the knight sacrifice in one of the lines. If that is cleared up, I would definitely play 15.b3. 15. Kh1 is okay, but I think removing the threat of Black moving f3 first should be considered first since Kh1 may not even do anything. We can play 16. Kh1 next move. 15. f3 is also okay, not my favorite of moves, but choosing the lesser of evils, this is probably the best option. Although there is an open diagonal, it can be challenged by our queen, and also makes 16. Kh1 a viable choice next move. 15. f3 removes the threat of black moving to f3, which if black does, then that may create an open g-file and a contained bishop, which we don't want.
I guess I'll try to clarify the A1 line in my earlier post:
15. b3, f3. 16. gxf3, Nxf3 17. Bxf3, Rxf3 18. Qd4+ , e5 (black could also move the king here, this was another line) 19. Qc5, Rxc3. 20. Rd6 spells trouble for black: no way to defend the e5 pawn and the king is cornered with little support.
Many possibilities now, but for example 20. ... Kg8 can be followed by 21. Qe5 is devastating since checking with the d6 rook threatens black's undefended queen. If instead 20.... Rxc4 or some other move which leaves the king at g7 white still has 21. Qe5, and it is still nasty. If 20. ... Qd8 to try to preempt that pin, 21. Qe5 wins white the c3 rook + a superior position.
To summarize: I think this line looks so good it is unlikely to be played as such. I am merely clarifying why it would be fine to lose the c3 knight in this variation, for the sake of completeness.
Many of the moves we are considering can transpose into much the same situations.
On December 29 2009 15:11 jfazz wrote: Incognitio, can you address a specific line or even write out your specific analysis? All I am really getting is that you give blakc the best possible position and white a passive one - while that is possible, I would really need to see the specific movelist to see how it would come to pass.
Sorry, little time and no board, but looking at the 15. Kh1 f3 line, I can't see how this gives white the active option while stopping black's active play. I do not see how 15. f3 gives black the best possible option. After f3, what do you think is black's best plan? I would think it would be continuing with kingside play with moves like Be6/Ba6, g6-g5-g4 and Rg8. Although black's queen is a little misplaced on c7, I do not see how he can make any progress with queenside or central play, as white has a pretty solid hold on the d-file and after b3 a queenside attack will be impossible. Black's plan will be delayed by f3, while white is free to attack wherever he chooses. 15. f3 does not seem immediately agressive, but I don't think the position invites agression at this point. what white needs is slow positional maneuvering while stopping black's chances. The last few moves including Qc7 have made me think that black does not have an active plan and is just waiting for the position to open up. White therefore, must concentrate his pieces in a way taht will maximize his advantage when the position opens up. If the center/f file open up right now, I think it will be good for black.
What this boils down to is whether or not 15. ... f3 is a good plan for black. From your post, it seems like you think that f3 would be a bad plan for black. I would disagree. The 15. Kh1 f3 line as given in your post allows black to take control of the a8-h1 diagonal by placing a bishop on b7, and gives black the half open f-file, while white has the d-file which is still unable to be opened because the b7 bishop controls the d5 square. Black can play c5 and stop white from playing c5 himself, while stopping any possible Nd5 moves from white. The 15. Kh1 f3 makes black's pieces active while leaving white's pieces looking out of place. The queen and rook battery on the d-file looks ridiculous when things are now happening on the f-file. (I do not think that black is obligated to trade queens in this line, as it seems to be a very versatile piece that defends the center and can swing over to the kingside after the d7 pawn moves). After Kh1 f3 white has little chances of opening up the d-file. While black's pieces seem currently uncoordinated, the open nature of the board allows him to reorganize his forces better. White's piece placement is no better. So white should build up his piece positions to maximize play when the board opens up. The critical thing is, though, that it is currently white who has the power to open up the board. We need to keep that power in order to maximize our position. Kh1 gives that power over for black to use at his discretion.
Oh also 15. ... Qb6+ should be met by 16. Kh1, not 16. Rf2. Again no board, so if there is something very advantageous (perhaps materially) about 15. Kh1 that overrides any consideration for black's good pieces, let me know. My analysis mainly accounts for piece quality and general active options in the king/queensides and center. After the Kh1 line black's pawn structure seems ok so mainly piece quality and active options are looked at here.
as far as rfd1 being better than rad1 ,, it is just more natural .. we are probably gonna need a rook behind our q-side pawns in the future is the main reason ..and now our q-side rook in on the d-file ..where we also want a rook for future reasons..if we had used the ff-rook we could still achieve both things fluidly i.e a rook on b1 and d1 ..... the f1 rook isn't doing much......As far as the next move is concerned qd4 is active but it can lead to a draw-ish position after blacks response c5 ..( the reason being is this all but forces nd5 by white) .. leading to a trade of queens .. now imo white has a slight edge in this resulting endgame but black should be able to hold for a draw..however if black doesn't find c5 it appears white gets a slight advantage in the resulting lines ( by the way i am merely providing analysis i am not voting) if white plays f3 you must be prepared to meet blacks response qb6! .kh1 .. which gives black the initiative... ..one more thing to add is qd4 prevents f3 with any effect . one likely likely line is qd4 rb8 b3 rf6 f3 c5!!!! (this move prevents black c5 allows our queen to safely stay in the center ,after a future black d6 or d5 to try for expansion we trade pawns leaving black with weak mobile pawns or try to hold the c5 b6 points with na4 .;imo this particular ending favors white...so to continue with the line qd4--rb8 b3--rf6(kg8?!) c5--kg8 f3--(now black is ready to play f3 or even build toward g5 possibly ..) imo white is safe here and controls the center i personally am favoring qd4 becuase it prepares f3 more safely..however an immediate black c5 more or less forces a trade of queens so this should be considered .. an immediate f3 seems a little risky and hands the initiative to black after qb6 ... if your not gonna play qd4 .. b3 would most likely be my second choice
I wonder where's all the people in the streaming chess thread, why aren't they voting here ? moreover where's the rest of the white team, their votes are certainly needed.
remember update needs to go today and next date is Friday.
I'm not online so much in the holidays, and i don't have time to check the position as much when I am, and I don't want to make uninformed votes, but for what it's worth, I would play f3 too.
the more deeply i look into this position i am finding the lines favoring white ,although it looks like b gets the initiative i don't think he can do a lot with it , the key static features about this pawn structure to note is kh1 makes way for a future rg1 if you decide to make a g3 pawn break .. for use of the g file and possibly creating a weak b pawn chain...one thing to note is imo opinion the f4 pawn is over extended without going to deeply... here is some q side action that indirectly plays against this feature .. ...qb6 kh1--d6 na4 qc7 c5!!! this move plays against the weak f4 pawn base and destroys the black center .. there fore this is what black most likely will play ...qb6.. kh1-- rb8!!!! (this moves makes na4 less appealing to blacks reply qb4 ! , but white has resources to meet rb8) g3--now if qxb2 qd4 gives white a definite lead , and immediately gets the pawn back if desired,, since black cannot play qxb2 , g5 seems a likely alternative where as white can continue to open the g file if desired , in any case the b3 na4 c5 push that plays against the black center and f4 pawn will take a little longer to achieve after rb8 but is very reachable ,, after rb8,g3 is the most natural move i can see that gives white good chances ,, so to reiterate .. ...qb6 kh1--rb8 g3- qxb2 qd4 is clearly better for white as previously stated .....g3--g5 gxf--gxf rg1--kh8 is the likely outcome ... imo the best thing from this point is to go for b3 na4 and c5 playing against the f4 pawn and its base...lol its all about move order !.. (if black plays c5 to prevent a white c5 it hands over the d5 square as well something to note another thing is after g3 fxg f4 is also just better for white ..so yeah kh1 is good ...
oh on the previous post if ..qb6 kh1-d6 na4 qe3 would be possible an obvious move i overlooked , but i still feel na4 and c5 would be the best plan at this point , meaning after qe3,( f4 is a static feature... white should either directly or indirectly take advantage of this weakness) since qb6 qe3 maneuver is possible with the coordination of rb8 to mobilize on the b2 pawn rf2 does deserve consideration as it helps repel qe3 a little more naturally plus defends the second rank in the future , imo kh1 gives black more room to make mistakes .. i myself would play rg1.. .rf2 is making a pin and after playing f3 ..g3 screams out as natural pawn break you cant play g3 until you play kh1
the last post i made lol was stupid.. qe3 at any rate isn't too scary just play qxq and f4 getting a nice edge i underestimated the strength of this play for white sorry i over looked this simple reply to qe3 a little tired shouldnt post this late ..or should use an engine to help when sleepy ... kh1 seems very solid....
Oh good. I think black had better moves than that. Avoid Rf2 and the pin. With Queen on b6 we can gain tempo with Na4. c5 becomes somewhat playable again. I think 15. .. Qa5 would have been the worst for us here.
Yes, 15. ... Qb6 was a weak move. But not really surprised that it was played because it does seem to give black some initiative initially, piling up on the b-file like that. But really I think white has nothing to fear from this check.
16. Kh1 I think black has three main options here. a) 16. ...Rb8. Simple, piling up on the b-file. chessmaster already stated his line, but I will give a different one. After 17. Na4 Qb4, offering a queen trade, white can actually decline with 18. Qd4! and now white offers a knight trade, except this time with white having an edge after the trade. If black accepts with 18. ... Qxa4 19. Qxe5+, white is much better. Black must play Kg8 or Kh6, Kf7 protecting the e7 pawn loses to 20. Qxf4+. After 20. Qxe7 Qxa2, white can bring his other pieces into the game with force with 21. b4!, preparing Rd4 and Bc4 to bear on the kingside. White's king is perfectly safe, and black's bishop will now be tied down to the defense of the d7 pawn. If black attempts to get rid of this weakness with a move like d5, the game opens up further to white's benefit.
Going back to 18. Qd4!, if black declines the knight trade with 18. ... d6, white has an option of playing the docile b3, locking black out of the queenside, or playing the more forceful c5!, renewing black's queen trade at more favorable circumstances while simultaneously protecting his knight. If 19. ... Qxd4 20. Rxd4 dxc5 21. Rd2 (White can't take back because of Rxb2, and black is ok) 21. ... Be6 22. b3. If black decides to try to keep his pawn with Nd7, the only way to defend it, then 23. Rfd1 Rad8 24. Nxc5! and black can't recapture because of Rxd8, winning a rook. If black gives back the pawn and plays 22. ... Rad8 instead, white simply plays 23. Rfd1 and black can't effectively contest the d-file.
Going back yet again to 18. Qd4, if black were to instead move the queen and plan 18. ... Qb8, a passive move, white would play 19. c5! stopping d6 and activating his light squared bishop. Black is in a bind, so he probably wouldn't play Qb8. Anyway...that's my long line on 16. ... Rb8 17. Na4 Qb4.
b) 16. ... d6. A weak move, as pointed out earlier by chessmaster. 17. Na4 Qc7 18 c5, and black has a weak center, no active options, while white will have a bishop pouring into c4 followed by a knight on c5 with a good game.
c) 16. ... Ba6. Attempting to stop white's immediate plans for Na4 followed by c5. White can immediately play 17. c5, attacking the queen and opening the d2 bishop to the a6 bishop. Black is forced to play 17. ... Qb7, after which 18. Bxa6 Qxa6 19. Qd4 and black is forced to play Kf6 unless he wants to lose a pawn (19. ... d6 20. cxd6 exd6 21. Qxd6). After 19. ... Kf6 20. Rc1 Qc4 21. Qd2, black must move his king or lose to Nd5+, picking off the queen. Black should cannot move his king to e6, because after 22. Nd5 black cannot save the pawn and offer to trade queens simultaneously with 22. ... Qd3, as 23. Nxf4 loses. So 21. ... Kg7 and Kg5 are the options. After 21. ... Kg7, 22. Rfd1, renewing the threat of Nd5, attacking the queen and f4 pawn. Black cannot trade queens with Qd3 as he could have before Rfd1, so black must again respond to the threat of Nd5.white has central control and mutliple threats, so he should be fine here.
After 21. ... Kg5, black has enough defenders on f4 that he does not have to worry about Nd5. However, his pawn is now pinned to his king. This can be exploited by 22. g3!, and the queen trade Qd3 does not work because of gxf4 with check. If 22. ... Nd3, protecting the pawn, then 24. gxf4+ anyway. If 24. ... Rxf4, then 25. Nd2 attacks the pinned piece as well as unleashing a discovery on the queen. If 24. ... Nxf4, then 25. Nd5! does the job. Black must attempt to trade queens, or else after Rg1+, the knight is lost. Notice that the queen cannot defend with Qf7 because the knight blocks the way.
If 25. ... Qd3, then 26. Rg1+ Kh6 (26. ... Kh5 27. Nxf4+ loses, 26. ... Kh4 27. Rg4+ loses, (27. ... Kh3 28. Qg2++, 27. ... Kh5 28. Nxf4+ as in the above line)
I can't find a continuation from here right now (kinda tired from trying to do this without a board but I think that white is doing well here. Either way I think 16. ... Ba6 would be black's best option.
Other moves: 16. Rf2. This move like previously stated just walks into a pin, when our king really doesn't want to be on the open a7-g1 diagonal anyway. Although the rook may eventually want to defend the second rank, this is difficult to accomplish because our bishop blocks the rank and will have no logical good squares to move to. Bd3 is terrible, blocking the d-file, while Bff1 looks plain awkward, although not terrible. If white eventually plays c5, the bishop may be able to find life on c4, but that will take a while. I think the f1 rook could have a potential future on the g1 square, where we can open the g-file at will. @ chessmaster, in your line I think instead of gxf4 gxf4 black would play gxf4 Rxf4 to take advantage of our backwards f pawn and keep the g file closed. But we don't have to talk about that till later
16. Qd4. White doesn't want to trade off queens at this point. The queen is quite a versatile piece for white, while black's queen may look imposing on the queenside but is just a nuissance. 16. ... Qxd4 17. Rxd4 c5! white doesn't have to worry too much about giving us the d5 square, because his bishop can be posted on b7 or e6 and can chop off our knight at will if we choose to place it on d5. 18. Rd2 Rd8 and black's game is good. White is saddled with a bad bishop which will have a hard time getting outside the pawn chain, while black'ss central pawns do not look so weak. If black tries to break free on the queenside with a3 and b4 or Rb1 and b4, black plays a5! locking down the b4 square. Black's knight is a monster, and can't be chased out by white's pawns or minor pieces. So Qd4 would be bad.
Anyway if something is wrong with my lines, let me know, this was done without a board so I might have slipped somewhere.
b) 16. ... d6. A weak move, as pointed out earlier by chessmaster. 17. Na4 Qc7 18 c5, and black has a weak center, no active options, while white will have a bishop pouring into c4 followed by a knight on c5 with a good game.
The overall strategy overarching plan that I have been basing play off of is that we have light squared bishops and one knight on the board with all major pieces still in play. The dominant goal should be to post as many pawns on dark squares as possible and then find an advanced outpost for the knight on a dark square.
There are a few key dark squares to watch out for: c5 d4 e3 f4.
Important for c5 are the white c3 knight and c4 pawn and the black b6 queen and c6 pawn. White has good control of d4 right now. e3 is still being contested.
There are two good moves in this situation provided we get the chance.
17. Na4 on the Queenside. If black moves d6 or plays on the kingside, we should go for this next move.
17. g3 on the Kingside. If black plays on the Queenside with a move like a5 or Qa5, we should go for this move. I think g3 will smash open the kingside or play to white's advantage. As long as the c8 bishop is still blocked by e7 and the king is in a relatively vulnerable position like g7, opening up the kingside will be to our advantage.
responses are either 17. ... fxg3 gives white the f4 square after 18. hxg3 and 17. ... g5 opens up the kingside after 18. Rg1 Ng6 19 h4
I just noticed that our pawn structure is horrible if we end up with a same colored bishop ending. Our bishop is so passive; long term, we need to either trade it or make it active.
Adendum to my 16. ... Ba6 line. After 19. ... Kf6, we instead play 20. g3! The pawn can't be taken because of 21. f4, winning the pinned piece. So after 20. ... g4 21. gxf4 gxf4 22. Qd2. Black must protect the weak f4 pawn.
22. ... Ke6 loses to Nd2.
22. ... Kg5 loses to 23. Rg1+ Kh6 (23. ... Kh5 24. Qg2 with checkmate to follow, while 23. ... Kh4 24. Qf2+ Kh5 with the same mate as the one above) 24. Qg2 and black is in serious trouble. 22. ... Kg5 meets a similar fate.
If 22. ... Kg7, 23. Rg1+ Kh8 24. Qd4, and black's only chance to save his knight is the horrible 24. ... d6, after which 25. cxd6 exd6 26. Qxd6 and white wins.
So there's the rest of the Ba6 line. g3 is critical to bust open the kingside and open up lines for white. So actually Ba6 is not so good for black, as I had previously thought.
16. ... d6 17. Na4 Qe3 is better for black, but still leaves us looking ok.
18. c5!. Black can't take, since 18. ... dxc5 19. Qxe3 fxe3 Nxc5 leaves white good. So... 18. ... Rf6 19. Qc2! and black' queen looks like it may soon be trapped. Black's queen already has no moves, all white has to do is attack it. 19. ... Be6 20. Bd3, preparing Rfe1. If 20. ... Qd4, 21. Bc4 and black must sacrifice his knight to save the queen.
So black's best try is to trade queens at move 18 with 18. ... Qxd2. After which 19. Rxd2 Rd8 20. Rfd1 Be6 21. b3 and black has to abandon his e5 post to protect the d pawn. 21. ... Nf7 22. Nb2, bringing the knight back into the game. The pawn can't be taken because 22. ... dxc5 23. Nd3 and white wins the pawn back and has an active good position. All black's pieces are tied down. If 22. ... Rab8, trying to get into the b4 square, 23. Nd3 anyways, forcing g5, the only way to protect the pawn. 24. g3 forces black to take, 24. ... fxg3 25. hxg3 and white has a good game with good central control and strong kingside pawns.
Back to 16. ... Rb8. I missed for black 21. ... c5, where black would be clearly better. So ignore my 16. ... Rb8 line. Back to chessmaster's 16. ... Rb8 17. g3 Qxb2 line, After 18. Qd4 d6 19. Rb1! and black's only option is to answer with 19. ... c5. 20. Rxb2 cxd4 21. Rxb8 dxc3 and white now has to deal with black's passed pawn. 22. Rc1 fxg3 23. hxg3. Black can't take the pawn on f3, because 23. ... Nxf3?? 24. Bxf3 Rxf3 25. Rxc8 loses. So 23. ... Nc6 24. Ra8 (white should keep the bishop pinned) Nd4 25. Bd1, and black' cannot hold onto his advanced pawn. White is up an exchange and will win.
If instead of Qxb2, black plays 17. ... Qe3, the queen trade is ok for white. 18. Qxe3 fxe3 19. f4 Nf7 20. b3, and white has a solid center while white is passive. Black also has a weak e3 pawn and should lose it soon.
addendum starts here
White's position looks awkward after 17. ... fxg3 18. f4 d6! A move that is hard to find for black unless you look at the position around white's king. The pawn on g3, Queen on a6 eyeing g1, and the bishop would make an imposing threat on the black king. After 19. fxe5, 19. ... Bh3 threatens 20. ... g2#. White's only response is 20. Rg1, after which 20. ... g2+ 21. Rxg2 Bxg2+ 22. Kxg2 dxe5 and white is up a two minor pieces for a rook, a good trade. Meanwhile black's center is crumbling. White's position looks fine. After 18. ... Nf7 19. hxg3, the other option, white has a strong kingside pawn structure and good pieces, while black is back in passivity.
After 17. ... g5, black's last option, white seems to have run into a wall block. Na4 cannot be played due to Qb4, and 18. gxf4 gxf4 19. Rg1+ Kh8 seems to get him nowhere. White can't exploit the open g-file, and moves like Qe3 threaten to take the punch out of white's attack. I don't know how white can get out of 17. ... g5.
Writing from the airport lounge, so forgive me if I am brief.
Kh1, as per Incognito's analysis.
I won't be around to help much, but I will try to post tournament updates as I have them, then some reports and game analysis when I am back (a little more than three weeks). My final practice results, over the last month are +10 -2 =8 (70%), including several games against grandmasters (all draws!).
We finally managed to find some improvements in the CaroKann mainline after: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 (the best imo, never had good results with Ngf6, although it is probably classicaly more correct) 11.Bf4 Qa5+ (again, the best line) 12.Bd2 (c3 allows the queen to stay on a5, where it prevents queenside castling, leading to a boring middlegame chances, where black has a good endgame)12...Qc7 13.0-0-0 (Qe2 is the principle alternative, although outside GM play it is quite rare, it just doesnt do enough, other than removing the queen from opposition from the d8 rook when black castles long, and the very timid threat of Nf5, which means little)13...Ngf6 (again, more accurate than 0-0-0) 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Bd6 (scores better than the immediate Ngf6) 16.g3 Ngf6 17.Qe2 Re8 18.c4
this was the line that caused me a lot of difficulty. Not because Black is in great difficulty, but just because after the forced c5 (to stop white from playing it) Black position just lags as worse (you would rather play e5, given the position of the white queen). Luckily, we found a more or less forced draw involving a piece sacrifice, a knight for four pawns (but probably three after getting queens off), which leads to an endgame with king+knight+2pawns vs king+5pawns, from which I have scored a draw and a win (he got greedy with his knight).
Plane leaves soon, so need to board. Ill write more when I get a moment, even some of my new theory. I managed to get some novelties in some other caro lines (g6 panov, schlecter attack as well). I have some cool stuff in the advance caro ready as well. Nimzo and QID are the same as always, but for once I readied 1.c4 e5 instead of my usual 1.c4 c5 - so I can at least play for an advantage with black 1.d4 for these tournaments, going to try and get an opening advantage for once.
responses 16. ... Rb8 17. b3 slow and solid seems to be the best here
17. g3 creates a really complicated active position with lots and lots of exchanges - the more natural line is rushed because b2 is hanging the whole time.
best continuation is probably 16. ... Rb8 17 g3 fxg3 18 f4 d6! (excellent move) continuations 19 Na4 Qb4 20 fxe5 (trade of knights and rooks.) 19 hxf3 Bh3 20 fxe5 Bxf1 20 Bxf1 Qxb2 (rook and pawn for the minor pieces)
16. ... Ba6 17 c5! Qb7 18 Qd4 Kf6 From the lines I see Black is whole pawn down and is worse off positionally. There is a nasty pin of the knight on e5 and the bishops on the board ties down the black queen. White eventually takes f4 with the knight after Black trades bishops on d2 to free up the queen for other defenses.
jfazz, 3 pawns for the minor piece after majors come off is a good endgame right? I guess it really depends on the configuration of the pawns for black and if there are any A or H file passed pawns
3 pawns for a piece is pretty good once the majors are off, especially if it is three pawns vs knight. Usually, you are getting a,b,c pawns vs b or c, then f and g vs f in that line, so the knight has its hands full.
Managed to get one game in on the plane against my brother, which was a comfortable win in a Catalan (closed, Bd2 line a la Kramnik). Then we played challenge matches against other passenges using the games server, which was fairly amusing. I had a game as white that went 1.d4 Nc6 2.Bf4!? e5?? so yeah, people are hilarious.
Need to raid the lounge for food, so more when Im off the next flight.
On January 01 2010 14:02 jfazz wrote: We finally managed to find some improvements in the CaroKann mainline after: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 (the best imo, never had good results with Ngf6, although it is probably classicaly more correct) 11.Bf4 Qa5+ (again, the best line) 12.Bd2 (c3 allows the queen to stay on a5, where it prevents queenside castling, leading to a boring middlegame chances, where black has a good endgame)12...Qc7 13.0-0-0 (Qe2 is the principle alternative, although outside GM play it is quite rare, it just doesnt do enough, other than removing the queen from opposition from the d8 rook when black castles long, and the very timid threat of Nf5, which means little)13...Ngf6 (again, more accurate than 0-0-0) 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Bd6 (scores better than the immediate Ngf6) 16.g3 Ngf6 17.Qe2 Re8 18.c4
Got confused after 16. ... Ngf6 wouldn't it be just Nf6? And how does black move Re8 on move 17?
17. ... Qe3 is favorable for us, no? After 18. Qxe3 fxe3 19. f4
Na4 doesn't really let us do much with it. Sure, Black will have to move the queen, but where can we really go afterwards, other than back to c3?
Another option, I believe, is a3, getting ready for b4. Eventually, maybe c5 as well. If we exchange a few pawns, maybe the Knight will have somewhere to move.
and now the docile line begins with 17.Qe2, which in practice is quite easy for black to get a good game. the trickier line is:
17.c4 c5 18.d5!? (also possible are Kb1 or Bc3, both of which give white a very slight pull but are practically equal) 18...Nf6 19.Qc2 exd5 20.cxd5 Qd7 (fighting for queenside light squares) 21.Kb1 Rhe8 22.Bxf6 gxf6 23.Nh4 Re5 24.f4 Rxh5 25.Qe2 Rxd5 26.Rxd5 Bxf4+ 27.gxf4 Qxd5 28.Rd1 Qxa2
with good endgame chances for black.
Alright, i need to use the bathroom and get some food, more details when I make it to Paris.
Addresses the potential threat of BA6 and solidifies our pawn structure. I'm thinking we can play RG1 next move followed by G3.
Read my analysis for why Ba6 is a bad idea for black. Its actually particularly bad after d6.
If 17. ... Ba6, then 18. c5, and if 18. ... dxc5, 19. Na5 Qb7, forced, 20. Nxc5 and black loses his bishop. If black instead plays the immediate 18. ... Qb7, 19. Bxa6 Qxa6 20. cxd6 wins a pawn.
On January 02 2010 11:15 DTK-m2 wrote: Hi, I just found this thread. I'm not sure how I sign up, and I haven't read through that thoroughly yet. I just love chess.
17. ... Qe3 is favorable for us, no? After 18. Qxe3 fxe3 19. f4
Na4 doesn't really let us do much with it. Sure, Black will have to move the queen, but where can we really go afterwards, other than back to c3?
Another option, I believe, is a3, getting ready for b4. Eventually, maybe c5 as well. If we exchange a few pawns, maybe the Knight will have somewhere to move.
Yes, 17. ... Qe3 is favorable for us, but not after 18. Qxe3, but 18. c5, as I have already mentioned. The knight is good on a4 because it gains a tempo on the queen while preparing c5, which, if you read the rest of the thread, you'll find discussion why it is an important square.
Move + Analysis
17. Na4
a) I have stated this line before but I'll make this short in case anyone didn't read my previous analysis. 17. ... Qe3. 18. c5
Now black has three options, Rd8, Rf6, and Qxd2.
If 18. ... Rd8, 19. Qa5 attacking the rook, 19. ... Bd7 20. cxd6 exd6 (if black takes on d2 white plays Qxe5 with check) 21. Ba6 Be8 protecting d6, but white takes anyway, because after 22. Rxd6 Rxd6 23. Qxe5+, white is winning. So after 22. ... Nf7 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Nc5, white is winning. Black is down a pawn and has a weak pawn structure.
18. ... Rf6 was analyzed in my last post, and in this variation white declines the queen trade and hopes to win material trying to trap black's queen.
18. ... Qxd2 is black's best try, as noted in my last post. White doubles on the d-file and ties black down to the defense of his weak c and d pawns. White has a slight edge.
Verdict: 17. ... Qe3 is bad for black.
b1) 17. ... Qa6. 18. b3 c5 stopping White's own c5, 19. Qb2 <-- an awkward looking move, but...
This pins the knight on e5 and exploits the fact that the only defender is the d5 pawn. 19. Qb2 threatens 20. Nxc5, and black can't take the knight because of Qxe5+.
So black has no option but to defend the pawn with 19. ... Qc6, after which 20. Rd5, again threatens Nxc5. 20. ... Be6 allows us to trade a rook for a knight and two pawns with 21. Rxe5 dxe5 22. Qxe5+ Rf6 23. Qxc5 Qxc5 24. Nxc5, and black has no active plan and must stop White's connected passed pawns. Black must move his bishop, else 25. e5 wins. After black moves, white plays Rd1, taking control of the d file.
The trade of a rook for a knight and two pawns is good for white. The knight was black's best piece, and now it is gone. Two of black's central pawns are gone, which creates a passed c pawn for white, which can potentially become a connected passed pawn island. Although white's bishop is a "bad" bishop and appears to be passive, this is not a problem for white because white's central pawns are mobile, and white can make his bishop active quickly. Furthermore, white's pawn structure is excellent, which allows his minor pieces to find excellent posts to combat the black rooks. There are no open files for black to exploit, so black's rooks are not very potent.
Verdict: 17. ... Qa6 is no problem for white, as white can take advantage of the knight pin on the a1-h8 diagonal to force black into passivity.
c1) 17. ... Qc7 18. c5 Rf6 19. g3
Taking advantage of the overloaded rook.
Below are some inferior responses by black, which I analyzed while trying to find a good response for black, added for the sake of completeness, but unnecessary to read.
If 19. ... g5, then 20. Rg1 forces the king off the g file. 20. ... Kh8 21. gxf4 gxf4 22. cxd6 exd6 23. Nc5! taking advantage of the weak back rank. Black can't take the knight because of 24. Qd8+ Qxd8 25. Rxd8#.
After black moves, say, 23. ... Rb8, White continues with 24. Nd3, threatening to win a piece by Nxe5, utilizing that same pin. After black clears the back rank to control d8 with his rook with 24. ... Ba6, 25. Nxe5 Bxe2 26. Qxe2 dxe5 27. Qc4 leaves white with a small edge. White has control of both open files, and black's king is stuck on h8 and must watch out for back rank mate threats. The undefended b2 pawn is actually untouchable, because of the threat of Qg8#.
If black moves 24. ... Be6 instead, then 25. Nxf4 Bxa2 26. Nh5 leaves white ahead. After black moves his rook, white plays 27. f4! and black can't move his knight because white controls the g-file and black's dark squares around his king are weak. The knight on h5 controls the f6 and g7 squares, and if the knight moves, then 28. Qc3+ and black must give up material to avert mate.
Other black moves at move 23, for example, 23. ... Bh3, still give white an edge. White continues with his plan of 24. Nd3, this time aiming for the f4 pawn. If black trades knights, he still has back rank problems. and dark square weaknesses. Qc3 is always nasty for black, and white also has threats of Bc4, eyeing the weak g8 square for the back rank mate. So my analysis is that 19. ... g5 would leave white with a fine game.
Black's best response to 19. g3 is 19. ... fxg3, leaving black with the initiative. After 20. cxd6 exd6 21. f4 Bh3 22. hxg3 Bxf1 23. fxe5 dxe5 24. Bxf1 where white has won two minor pieces for a rook and pawn. Both black and white have weak pawn structures, and it looks as if white's weak king will immediately be a target. White's minor pieces are out of position and cannot work together to defend the king. The game is also open enough that black's rooks will dominate.
Verdict: 19. g3 is bad for white here. The problem is the black bishop, which has the strong option of Bh3 after the g pawn moves to g3. Another problem for white is his misplaced knight, which plays no role in the defense after the trade of rook and pawn for bishop and knight. White wants to find a way to bring his knight into the game.
c2)
17. ... Qc7 18. c5 Rf6 19. b3
This is accomplished by the move 19. b3, which strengthens the queenside, allows the knight to come to c4 via b2, dislodging black's powerful e5 knight, and waits to see where black will move his bishop. The rook move Rb8 looks silly now that there is a pawn on b3. So looking at black's viable options, they are 19. ... Bb7, and 19. ... Bd7.
After 19. ... Bb7, black has lost the option of Bh3. So now 20. g3 fxg3 21. hxg3 followed by 21. f4 gives white a strong kingside pawn structure and kicks out black's powerful e5 knight. White is good here. So black's only other option is 20. ... g5, after which white is better as in my previous line with g3 g5. (Black's bishop on b7 does little to change white's strategy in this line, which involves moving the knight to c5 and d3 to trade with black's e5 knight.)
After 19. ... Bd7, white continues his plan of trading off black's good knight with Nb2. If black attempts to take the pawn at c5 thinking it is good now that the knight is gone, white paradoxically moves back to a4. After 20. Nb2 dxc5 21. Na4!, black can't defend the pawn. 21. ... Qd6 loses to 22. Qa5. So black's other hope is to push the c pawn and hope to disrupt white's pawn structure. But 21. ... c4 22. Nc5 attacks the bishop on d7.
If 22. ... Rd8, black loses either because white's queen is lined up with black's king, or because the queen gets overloaded by 23. Qc3!, and black can't avoid losing a piece. 23. ... Bc8 loses to 24. Rxd8 Qxd8 25. Qxe5. The knight move 23. ... Nd3 loses to 24. Bxd3 cxd3 25. e5!, and after the black rook moves, e6+ wins the bishop. Any other move loses to Na6, after which black can't defend his e5 knight. So black cannot play 22. ... Rd8.
If 22. ... Be6, then a similar thing happens after 23. Qc3. White threatens to win a piece with Na6, so the only defense is 23. ... a5. White now has two options, both of which are good. Either 24. Nxe6 Rxe6 25. Bc4 Rf6 26. Be2 with a solid pawn structure and control of the d-file, or 24. g3, and white now has better chances than the immediate 19. g3. Now 19. ... fxg3 20. Nxe6! Rxe6 21. f4 wins the pinned piece. So white is good after 19. ... Bd7.
Verdict: White is good after 17. ... Qc7, but only after 19. b3. 19. g3 would be a mistake because of 19. ... Bh3, giving black the initiative.
from Paris now, with an even more difficult keyboard.
Na4.
I am playing some practice games today at the Paris Chess Club. Ill let you know how they go. I had 12 hours of sleep last night so I feel good at least!
Mainly because black threw away the initiative through 3 semi pointless queen moves without completing development. Now after the queen retreats, white is in a good position to continue the queenside attack.
Edit: Oh and sign me up on the TL team if you will, please
This is stronger than c5 for my money. Incognito's previous analysis of the 18. c5, Rf6 contained a mistake I think:
18. c5!. Black can't take, since 18. ... dxc5 19. Qxe3 fxe3 Nxc5 leaves white good. So... 18. ... Rf6 19. Qc2! and black' queen looks like it may soon be trapped. Black's queen already has no moves, all white has to do is attack it. 19. ... Be6 20. Bd3, preparing Rfe1. If 20. ... Qd4, 21. Bc4 and black must sacrifice his knight to save the queen.
Actually, black could just 21... Qxc4 at that point and be ahead a bishop.
I think the correct line if 18. c5 is 18... Rf6. Them we could:
19. Re1, but black will play Qf2, escaping on the king side. I think this is our strongest move but would leave us weaker than 18. Qxe3. 19. Qc2, as suggested by Incognito, followed by 19... Rf8 20. Bd3, Qd4 21. cxd5, exd6. We are still up slightly, but the black queen is far from "trapped" and the position is a bit more even in my view.
18. Qxe3 forces 20... fxe3, so we can 21. Rc1, c5. 22. b3 and we are essentially up pawn (the e3 one is not defensible by black). It is perhaps not very exciting immediately, but does give us a clear edge and is very solid.
I havent really spent too much time on the position, but to me it looks like they should basically amount to the same thing, since it is clear we should play c5 at some point, but whether or not do it straight away?
In fact I believe Qxe3 is better here, which is strange since initially it looks like we are playing into blacks plan and giving a tempo back, but actually this variation 18.Qxe3 fxe3 19.c5 Rf6 (not taking as pointed above) 20. cxd exd 21. Rc1, gives us potentially both semi open files whilst still maintaining an undeveloped bishop.
In contrast after the direct 18.c5 black can then play 18...Qxd2 and after 19.Rxd2 before proceeding with our attack (cxd) black has the inbetween move 19...Be6, which develops this piece, connects rooks and could possibly generate some counterplay via discoveries against the knight on a4.
Hence I vote 18.Qxe3, which should work to passify black's position a bit more.
I cant see any tactics that make18.Qc2 a bad move, but it doesnt make much sense. Sure the queen is trapped, but we cannot exploit this. Furthermore If you leave the queen there, the bishop is potentially hanging if the queen ever moves away. But the biggest drawback of this move is that it allows black to develop with 18...Ba6, which piles up on the pawn. This essentially stops our queenside attack, because now 19.c5 would lose the bishop and I believe we are forced into passive defence such as 19.b3
@ Arhkangel, the queen is not trapped. Its only trapped after c5, when the queen can't move back to b6. 18. Qc2? fails to 18. ... Ba6, and white can't play c5. So Qc2 is bad.
*** Updated *** 18. c5 line.
@ citi.zen, hmm sorry I must have forgotten to write a move. I meant to add the key move 20. b3. Now whatever black responds, he can't deal with the threat of 21. Bd3/c4/b5/a6 followed by 22. Rfe1. The only way I can see that black can get his queen to safety is by sacrificing some material. (Made another error, black doesn't have to sac the knight, he just has to sac either an exchange or the queen for a rook + bishop). 19. Qc2! Rb8 20. b3 Rb4 (the only way to save the queen) 21. Bd3 and now black has two options.
21. ... Rxa4 22. bxa4 Qxc5 23. Qxc5 dxc5 and white has won a rook for a knight and pawn. Both black and white have doubled isolated pawns, but there are plenty of open files for white's extra rook to dominate. White is good.
21. ... Rd4. 22. Rfe1. There are a lot of options for black to capture from here, but both trade the queen for a bishop and rook. For example, 22. ... Qxe1+ 23. Rxe1 Rxd3 24. Nb2 Re3 25. Rxe3 fxe3 leaves white good.
@ dozko, 18. Qxe3 is incorrect here. Your line seems correct, but I think the analysis is off a bit White attains nothing after 18. ... fxe3 19. c5 Rf6. There is no way to immediately exploit the weak e3 pawn, and there is also no way to break the black center. Black would be doing well if Qxe3.
18. c5 Qxd2 is still ok for white. However I'm confused by your analysis of 19. ... Bc6. I think you mean Be6 since Ba6 loses a piece. I also can't see how black has a discovery on the knight, if you can clarify that. Anyway, 19. ... Be6 is not good for black. 20. cxd6. 20. ... Bxa2 is bad because of moves like dxe7, d7, and Ra1, all causing black troubles. White can also play Nc5 anytime he wants, a good post that gives good central control and protects the pawn if it advances to d7. Black is forced to passive defense, giving white the initiative.
Huh? There is only one Rb8. Ra8-b8. If 18. ... dxc5 we wouldn't play Qc2. We'd use your second line where we trade queens then take on c5. 18. ... dxc5 is good for us.
i meant if he did Be6 (which Rb8) , but as you agree with me on that alternative, it is now a moot point if we can convince everyone else. I assumed dxc5 would be his best move, but after looking at it a bit more i agree that he will probably do somethign else
if he responds with Rf6 should we go ahead and do Rfe1?
i meant if he did Be6 (which Rb8) , but as you agree with me on that alternative, it is now a moot point if we can convince everyone else. I assumed dxc5 would be his best move, but after looking at it a bit more i agree that he will probably do somethign else
if he responds with Rf6 should we go ahead and do Rfe1?
18. c5 Qxd2 19. Rxd2 Be6 and now: 20a.)cxd6 exd6 21.Rxd6 Bxa2, and another branch:
22a1.)Rfd1 (interesting but probably equal is 22.Ra1 Bf7 23. Nb6 Rab8 24. Nd7 [the "point"] Nxd7 25. Rdx7 Rxb2 26. Bc4 Kg8, forcing exchanges on f7 followed by Rxa7+ Ke6 and Kg1, =) 22. ...Bb3 23.R1d4 Rab8 Nc5 Bf7 24. Rd2 (24. Ne6+ is bad - 24...Bxe6 25. Rxe6 Rxb2 26. Rxe5 Rxe2 27. Kg1, and after 27...Rb8, all the winning chances belong to Black), and after 24...a5 25. Nd7 Nxd7 26. Rxd7 Kg8, White's better and should have some chances, but it seems like Black should draw conveniently enough.
22a2.)Nc5 Rfd8 23.Rfd1 (if 23.Ne6+, Bxe6 24.Rxe6 Re8 and Black is fine) 23...Rxd6 24.Rxd6 Rb8 25. Ne6+ Bxe6 26.Rxe6 Rxb2 27.Kg1 Rxe2 28.Rxe5 and Black is at least drawing.
20b.)b3 (a3? Bb3 21.Nc3 dxc5 -/+) 20...Rfd8 21.Rfd1 Nf7. White has pressure and seems to have achieved a dream position, but Black is holding on and plans ...Rd7, ...Rad8, and ...d5, while it's not obvious how White can improve his position similarly. Bc4 meets ...Kf6, and answering ...Rd7 with cxd6 exd6 Nc5 is met simply by Re7. g3 g5 changes nothing.
Personally, I think White's major inaccuracy was failing to play Qd4+ at move 13, but that's neither here nor there.
@ Incognito: Yes sorry I mean Be6 in my analysis of 18.c5, not Bc6 (it was quite late )
And this position is still not bad for white, as I said both amount to nearly the same thing but 18.c5 allows black some activity, when his pieces are rather passive now.
Of course not 20...Bxa2 but black continues 20...exd 21.Rx6 Bxa2 now the most trouble black can have with this bishop is after Ra1, but then he just retreats. It looks like 21.b3 is also playable and then black still has improved his position since before after the break 21...d5.
However compare the position after Qxe3. Black's position is much more cramped, his pieces are undeveloped and white still has all to play for having both semi-open files to generate counterplay. With 18.Qxe3 black is forced into passive defense, whereas 18.c5 right away, whilst still continuing white's attack, simply gives black more activity. Furthermore note that the black pawn on e3 after 18...fxe is a viable target possibly, whereas when it is on f4 it is pretty much immune for now
imo c5 is very playable ..qxe3 also playable , just depends if you want to go str8 to an endgame or not ,, in any event no question that c5 needs to be played either right now ,, or after qxe3 if you were not gonna play c5 then na4 was wrong... but the position screams for c5 ,, c4 is a future post for our knight via the b2 square for one reason it also can activate the light square bishop .. plays against the f4 d6 complex ,, there are myriad reasons take your pick for c5 .... either qxq then c5 or just c5 ,,,, also d5 break is not an option for b we control the d file , also it would weaken blacks e5 square /diagonal , d5 is suicide for b basically in the very long foreseeable future .....c5 is what you call a natural move,, one line possible for qxe3 though that leads to a slight edge for w imo is qxe3.. fxe3 c5..rf6 cxd6?(re1..g5 bf1..)...now 2 lines ..pxd6 rc1(not having the f-rook on the d file costing us again)...rb8 and rc3 winning the e3 pawn and taking a clear edge .. i didn't spend a lot of time on this analysis , so it maybe refutable
when i said 2 line i meant rxd6 was also playable for black in the end of the qxe3 line but that line is slightly better for white also after rxr pxd6 rd1... white ends up with a positional clamp and picks off the e3 pawn at will.... i plugged both moves in my deep fritz ,, and i felt immmediately qxq is better for white ,, but fritz disagreed with me ,, however... when i got past the horizon it could see .. like depth 30 ,, by plugging in moves it didnt see on its own ( this is the key difference between a master using an engine to analyze and a novice ) well when i got past its capable horizon .. lol it changed its mind and agreed with my initial assessment ,, so for those of you using engines be careful religiously believing what it says ... lol i am highly skeptical of my analytical silicone based chess buddy,, and its ability to discern endings accurately
when i said 2 line i meant rxd6 was also playable for black in the end of the qxe3 line but that line is slightly better for white also after rxr pxd6 rd1... white ends up with a positional clamp and picks off the e3 pawn at will.... i plugged both moves in my deep fritz ,, and i felt immmediately qxq is better for white ,, but fritz disagreed with me ,, however... when i got past the horizon it could see .. like depth 30 ,, by plugging in moves it didnt see on its own ( this is the key difference between a master using an engine to analyze and a novice ) well when i got past its capable horizon .. lol it changed its mind and agreed with my initial assessment ,, so for those of you using engines be careful religiously believing what it says ... lol i am highly skeptical of my analytical silicone based chess buddy,, and its ability to discern endings accurately
As far as I'm concerned using Deep Fritz for analyzing a position is clearly cheating. Please leave the thread and don't come back. We don't want your help.
Earlier, we opted to go for positional play and bring the rook to d1 as opposed to a more sharper line. I say we follow the trend for positional play and add more pressure to Black's d file. The threat of either a passed pawn or doubled, isolated pawns really attracts me in this position.
That is bad. 19. f4?? is a huge blunder because of 19. ... Bg4, trading off bishops and getting the knight to protect the pawn. Black has to move the rook on d1 to e1, else e2 forks the rooks. 20. Bxg4 Nxg4 21. Rde1 and white clearly has no real way to exploit the e3 pawn.
On January 04 2010 23:01 dozko wrote: @ Incognito: Yes sorry I mean Be6 in my analysis of 18.c5, not Bc6 (it was quite late )
And this position is still not bad for white, as I said both amount to nearly the same thing but 18.c5 allows black some activity, when his pieces are rather passive now.
Of course not 20...Bxa2 but black continues 20...exd 21.Rx6 Bxa2 now the most trouble black can have with this bishop is after Ra1, but then he just retreats. It looks like 21.b3 is also playable and then black still has improved his position since before after the break 21...d5.
However compare the position after Qxe3. Black's position is much more cramped, his pieces are undeveloped and white still has all to play for having both semi-open files to generate counterplay. With 18.Qxe3 black is forced into passive defense, whereas 18.c5 right away, whilst still continuing white's attack, simply gives black more activity. Furthermore note that the black pawn on e3 after 18...fxe is a viable target possibly, whereas when it is on f4 it is pretty much immune for now
Both 21. b3 and 21. Rxd6 are good for white. It just seems as if black is let out of the box because the game is open, but I can't see how black has that many options but to defend the queenside after 21. Rxd6 Bxa2. He has two weak pawns to our one weak pawn, and can't really succeed at an active plan. The board is open, but he has no weaknesses to attack except the b2 pawn. We have the a7 and c6 pawns to attack, and his king is more exposed than ours.
Now I'll look at Qxe3. It takes a while to exploit the e3 pawn, probably with the maneuver Rd1-c1-c3-e3 or Rfe1 along with a bishop move. After 19. c5 Rf6 20. Rc1 Be6 21. b3 d5 leaves black good, because after the pawn trade, both sides have passed pawns, and black's e3 pawn is no longer weak and black at least has some chances in the center.
If instead of 20. Rc1, 20. Nc3, 20. ... g5 brings on black's kingside attack.
Anyway, I was probably thinking too much about the e3 pawn and a slow positional buildup in the center to miss the simple but yet non-obvious move cxd6 which strangely breaks black's chances for counterplay with d5 and vacates the c5 square for use by the white knight. After 21. Rc1 Be6 22. b3 Rd8 23. Rfd1 white is ok because if 23. ... d5, Nc5 blockades black's center and brings the knight into the game, and white should be able to hold the center and take black's e3 pawn without letting black out of the box.
After 18. Qxe3 fxe3 19. c5 Rd8, after which black plans to play d5. So 20. Nc3 Be6 21. f4 Nc4 22. Bxc4 Bxc4 23. Rfe1 d5 24. exd5 cxd5 25. Rd4 blockading the pawn, and white should be able to take the pawn and consolidate for the win.
Perhaps Qxe3 is a good move. Stylistically it is a bit forcing, but perhaps that is what the position currently calls for. I'll throw out my vote for Qxe3 and see what happens from here.
using and engine isnt cheating .. the difference between a master like myself using an engine .. and a novice like your slef are worlds apart .. you think if you were playing kasparov in the world versus kaspy he wouldnt be using fritz .. he admit-tingly did ,, the difference IS .. i don't plagiarize the engine , mimdlessly psoting what it says ,, whioch some of you obviously are ,, i use it to explore a given position ,,, BECAUSE its more out of laziness .. i can beat the damn thing ,, do you understand that ... i can beat the engine i am using on my quad core..... therefore i am using it merely to save time sifting through various tactics .. i am a ranked fide master and dont like being called a cheater ,,, i do not quite think you fully understand how an advanced player uses and engine
On January 05 2010 20:50 chessmaster wrote: using and engine isnt cheating .. the difference between a master like myself using an engine .. and a novice like your slef are worlds apart .. you think if you were playing kasparov in the world versus kaspy he wouldnt be using fritz .. he admit-tingly did ,, the difference IS .. i don't plagiarize the engine , mimdlessly psoting what it says ,, whioch some of you obviously are ,, i use it to explore a given position ,,, BECAUSE its more out of laziness .. i can beat the damn thing ,, do you understand that ... i can beat the engine i am using on my quad core..... therefore i am using it merely to save time sifting through various tactics .. i am a ranked fide master and dont like being called a cheater ,,, i do not quite think you fully understand how an advanced player uses and engine
On January 05 2010 20:50 chessmaster wrote: using and engine isnt cheating .. the difference between a master like myself using an engine .. and a novice like your slef are worlds apart .. you think if you were playing kasparov in the world versus kaspy he wouldnt be using fritz .. he admit-tingly did ,, the difference IS .. i don't plagiarize the engine , mimdlessly psoting what it says ,, whioch some of you obviously are ,, i use it to explore a given position ,,, BECAUSE its more out of laziness .. i can beat the damn thing ,, do you understand that ... i can beat the engine i am using on my quad core..... therefore i am using it merely to save time sifting through various tactics .. i am a ranked fide master and dont like being called a cheater ,,, i do not quite think you fully understand how an advanced player uses and engine
form the fucking rules > No chess engines or outside help, please.
so yes, you ARE a cheater!
I can use a statshack way better than my brother but it still remains cheating.
Yeah dude read the rules next time. I don't fucking give a shit if you are a fide master, you don't use engines. When the rules tell you to do something, and you clearly violate it, you have no right to keep violating it. Get out.
Btw Lightman, could you fix the moves? I'm pasting these into a pgn game viewer, but they're invalid because castling is not written with zeros but with O's, and also we played Na4 and not Na5. It's annoying to fix these mistakes _every_ move.
On January 05 2010 23:46 TheBB wrote: Btw Lightman, could you fix the moves? I'm pasting these into a pgn game viewer, but they're invalid because castling is not written with zeros but with O's, and also we played Na4 and not Na5. It's annoying to fix these mistakes _every_ move.
Wow people are ver hostile towards chessmaster :S He can't even vote so what's all the rage about... He is only providing analysis you can even avoid reading it if you are so hellbent on it.
He IS using it to save time. After all is said and done the only one that has a say is lightman. If he has an issue then chessmaster should refrain from posting and save his analysis and notes for after the game is done.
Lightman are you O.K. with a FIDE Master using an engine to analyse moves and posting them during the game?
jfazz HWATING!!! Pics please! Were can we follow this tournament? Any chance we will be able to see them later in chessgames.com?
On January 06 2010 00:34 Arhkangel wrote: Lightman are you O.K. with a FIDE Master using an engine to analyse moves and posting them during the game?
Nope.
I'm honoring vetkel's original rules that come all the way from first and second TL Chess tourneys and TL Chess match I, which state if you read them-
1) RULES:
> No chess engines or outside help, please.
I think your teammates have handled well the situation with chessmaster asking him not to use chess engine nor to post again in the thread, which is why I haven't felt the need to get involved; at this point if I see another post of him here I will ask for a mod to ban him.
Team Liquid has always had a strong reputation and firm policies against cheating/cheaters in their website activities, and although I'm not part (neither the match is) of the administrating team (or TL activities), I believe it's my and our duty to carry on that policy through all its inner activities.
Ok, I haven't been in the loop for a while, but R1d1 looks good to me. Note that after R1d1 Nf7, e5 is possible. Unless we can win a pawn we should not play cxd6 unprovoked.
He plays 20... Nf7 Then 22.Rc2 Bb7 Now we have a couple of options
I guess the chessmaster thing is solved then :D If lightman want's him out then he's out. I would still love to see your analysis post-game chessmaster. DO IT FOR THE NEWBIES!
I'm pretty sure 20...cxd5 is bad; the knight will dominate the bishop. It's a waiting game in the center at the moment, but we should come out on top I think.
20. Rfd1 is the obvious move here, piling up on the d-file and putting pressure on the center. + Show Spoiler +
20. cxd6 immediately is not a terrible move, but I prefer keeping on the pressure. There are no other reasons to play cxd6 immediately, as with the doubled rooks, it will be hard for black to play the freeing move d5.
20. Rfc1 does nothing to build up the pressure on d6, and is generally less powerful than Rfd1. The c5 pawn doesn't need extra protection, and the c5 point is defended adequately by the knight on e5. Black can also play 20. ... Bb7 to protect that pawn if he fears 21. cxd6 exd6 22. f4.
So after 20. Rfd1 black has to defend the pawn or counter attack one of white's pawns, leaving the options at 20. ... Be6 or 20. ... Nf7.
20. Rfd1 Be6 21. b3 Nf7
Black can't really play 21. ... Rd8 because we just trade and win a pawn. However, Nf7 weakens the c5 pawn. Fortunately white can exploit this with Rc1. This is better than the immediate Rfc1 because it gets the defender off the c6 square before moving in to attack it.
22. Rc1 Bd7 23. Bc4!
If black defends the pawn with Bd7, he has lost control of the a2-g8 diagonal and white can play Bc4, taking control of the diagonal and threatening to remove the defender on f7, which would give white a large advantage. So 23. ... Ne5, which leads to 24. Rcd1 Nxc4 25. bxc4 Be6 26. cxd6 exd6 27. Rxd6 Bxc4 and white is better. Black has bigger pawn weaknesses on the queenside and less active pieces. White plans to attack the bishop and move the knight to c5, centralizing. White should be good here.
However, there is another line. Black can instead play 22. ... d5, avoiding passive defense. 23. exd5 Bxd5, using the c6 pawn to support the black center. 23. ... cxd5 would be bad for black because we have a passed c-pawn that can immediately be pushed. Although black may hope to build up in the center, he cannot do anything but to delay white's attack.
After 24. Nc3 e6, black may be temporarily able to hold the center, but white can start a queenside pawn storm. Although not immediately advisable, white also can take the bishop on d5 at any time if he so chooses. Verdict: Black's center may look menacing, but its really harmless. White has enough pieces + the pawn on f3 to stop black from doing anything productive.
After 24. Nc3 Ne6, white's attack seems stalled. But all white has to do is see what black will do next. I'd choose 25. Ba6, clearing the e-file for future rook moves, and also attempting to force black to defend the weak c6 pawn. White definitely has more active pieces and can play slowly with two weaknesses on the queenside, although they are not as exploitable because the queenside is more closed.
24. Nc3 Rd8 is not so good for black because it sets up a pin on the d-file after Rcd1.
So that's my Be6 line.
On to 20. ... Nf7. Probably a better line for black even though it looks passive. 20. ... Be6 sets up a set of moves where white can switch between attacking the d and c pawns since the bishop blocks the black rook's defense of the d6 pawn. Notice that white can't immediately play Bc4 as in the other line, since white does not threaten to take the c-pawn after the trades occur. 20. ... Nf7 is a nice waiting move, since white can't really improve directly from here. White can't force anything, so black gets a free move after.
Right now, I see 3 main moves for black, Be6, g5, and Rb8. The move 21. b3 prevents Rb8, or at least reduces its usefulness. It also prepares to bring the knight to c4 via b2, which brings it back into the game. 21. b3 also limits the usefulness of Be6 by removing the tempo black gets by attacking the a2 pawn with Be6. Also if 21. b3 Be6, 22. Rc1 effectively transposes to my previous 20. ... Be6 line, which as I have stated is good for white. However, I don't see how 21. b3 stops black from playing g5. 21. ... g5 improves black's position by threatening to mess up white's kingside pawn structure, and waits yet again to see what white will do. 22. Nb2 probably, but now black can safely play 22. ... Be6, when 23. Rc1 d5 24. exd5 Bxd5 will not allow us to pile up with Nc3. Although a minor concession, I think its still playable for white given black's weaknesses.
So 20. ... Nf7 is somewhat passive looking, but good for black. If 20. ... Nf7, white should try to transpose into 20. ... Be6 lines and utilize the theme of the weak black pawns to dictate the flow of the game. More is less for black here, I'll be interested to see which path lightman will take.
Day 2 went by with two draws (catalan, closed 5.Nf3 line and a nimzo). Everyone seems to be avoiding my caro-kann preparation.
Im sitting in second place with 2.5/4 (+1 -0 =3), with the leader on 3/4 (2 wins, no losses). I play him first game tomorrow, with the black pieces (boo hiss!).
I dont think the tournament is been covered live anywhere (at least nowhere that I can find), and I doutb anyone is going to upload the games of non-masters (the tournament leader and one other player are FIDE masters, the rest of us are candidate masters), but when I return home, after the second tournament, ill upload every game I played, with full annotations, thoughts and anaysis.
oh and guysm=, check out the games from the Reggio Emelia, 2009 tournament, especially this great game from Kamsky with the black pieces http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1566821 (for what its worth, in that line, I like 5.b6 because the theory is easy).
jfazz keep rocking them dude. When you post them on your blog or wherever let us now right away! On another note: In the game from Kamsky you posted why on 22.axb3 h6 didn't Kamsky play 22... Ra1+ instead? :p
@arkhangel, he didnt play Ra1+ because after Rc1, it doesnt achieve that much. If Kamsky then trades rooks, the passed extra b-pawn may prove difficult to stop, and without calculating too deeply, it seems that it may win a piece eventually (white can swap bishop for knight, and bring his own knight to c6 with seemingly decisive effect). The chosen line, utilised by Kamsky is a clever way of entombing his own piece to create counterplay, that I had not seen before.
I had two more draws today. The game agsinst the tournament leader (an FM) was fine, he didnt get much out of a 4.Qc2 nimzo (i like that line because it leads to positions from the panov-botvinnik), while in the game afterwards, I played fairly badly out of the opening against a Schlecter Slav, and got nothing myself, even leading to a slightly worse endgame which I managed to draw comfortably. Lazy opening prep on my behalf, I ended up playing the Bf4 sideline because I couldnt remember the mainline with Bg5
The FM i played won his other game, and the other FM won both of his games, so they both move to equal first with +4 =2 = 5/6. Im sitting in third place with +1=5 = 3.5/6, so I only need draws tomorrow to pick up the rating norm (with draws against both FMs you see), however a loss and a win may not cut it....depending on whom it is against. Thus ill be playing the super boring london system with white and offering an early draw With black I may finally get a caro, but who knows, there is always the next tournament in two weeks.
Looks good positionally. I spent a lot of time thinking about cxd6 and possible tactics but there's no need to rush this position or to sac the A pawn.
As previously stated 21.b3, black isnt going anywhere, our attack is solid just a little bit of extra profilactic chess to prevent any knight invasions Vote 21.b3
And I'm with broz0rs here, this game is very good for new players to start analysing moves. lighman maybe next time you will go for your prefered opening.
Black wont take in the center thats just silly, given the power of our rooks.Rd4 is also interesting because it puts pressure on the black pawn on f4, but it feels like the piece is not doing much there right now. Looks a bit pointless for now. IMO this move will be much better played in a line like the one below
Im thinking 22..Bxd5 23.Nc3 e6 24.b4 Rb8. 25.Rd4 - defending with activity. This position looks good to me.
I don't see what black can do in this situation to change it for the better. So I want to take the break that we have to move the rook up into a position where it can move to b4.
lightman, not a trap. but just the more inferior move in that position in my opinion. But then again, it was an easy move to make. We can discuss more after the game.
Finally we get to the point where black's pawn structure deteriorates (we've been talking about this for a while now :D)
22. exd5. There were three moves I was considering, 22. exd5, 22. Rd4, and 22. Nc3.
I think 22. Rd4 is slightly incorrect. Seems good allowing black to take on e4, as our rook can take back and attack his knight. But Rd4 allows black simply to defend his center with Bf7/g8, e6, and Rd8, while we have little more to do that to try something like b3-b4-b5 to try to undermine c6. But after b4, black just takes on e4 and takes the a2 pawn right after.
22. Nc3 is playable, but I'd rather take the pawn immediately.
22. exd5 Bxd5 (cxd5 just loses a pawn after Nc3) 23. Nc3 Be6 24. Re1.
No matter what black responds, 25. Bf1. Pile up on the e-file leaving black with troubles on how to defend his minor pieces.
23. ... Bf7 24. Ne4 Rf5 25. Rd4! piling up for attacks on the f4 pawn. Threats like g4! undermine black's kingside and unleashes a powerful attack for us.
23. ... Bg8 24. Ba6 to go after that pawn while also clearing the e-file for our rooks to use.
Theres plenty of ways out of a draw here. We have a queenside pawn majority which I'm hoping we can convert to a passed pawn or two. Black just has to play very carefully if he wants the draw.
Theres plenty of ways out of a draw here. We have a queenside pawn majority which I'm hoping we can convert to a passed pawn or two. Black just has to play very carefully if he wants the draw.
I agree with those saying we have a good defensive position, yet it comes with no clear attacking options. Black is also in decent shape positionally, I am not sure I would say we have a queen side pawn "majority".
Either way I guess we will keep going for a few more moves, I just don't see any viable lines of attack short of a major blunder from one side.
as far as me cheating not sure about that ...i was never voting merely providing analysis , but i didint read the rules and i not mean to violate any of them .. as i said it was more out of laziness ,, as i am stronger than the engine i own on my quad core system anyway i wasnt voting anyway so problem solved no more anaaysis ,, i wouldnt give it without an engine at this point out the rude way you assumed me to intentionaly be cheating or telling me to leave without informing me of the rules and continuing nicely from there.. i don know what it is about poeple that search out confrontation ..i was merely trying to help and have some fun . for those of you that found my eval informing sorry but this isnt worth it .. i was putting my own time for free i may add into this.. this well wisher can have his little forum
for those of you that would actually like to play a master .. maybe i will organize chess mach 3 or 4 .. and being a correspondence game bring your engines on ,, i'[m not scared of them .. but i would ask you use them to explore not plagiarize ,, or feel wecome to use books or any other means .. the main point would not be me winning for ego purposes .. but learning for the forum .. of course in depth analysis would follow the match. .. ps. the irony here is so thick lmao
obviously that was a misatke .. i wasn't tried to hide it because the way i analyze it never occure to me to think of it as cheating in a correspondence game i figured it would be an hono system meaning dun plagiarize the machine use your own thoughts .. anyway i apologize to those i offended it was unintentional ...but i think athos and whoever else was very rude in the way they handled it ,, and good luck getting someone of my strength her e again putting in work for free
Chessmaster, you have to understand that this is a Starcraft community and not a Chess community. What makes us all united is that our love of progaming brought us here. You on the other hand have no posts outside of this thread yet come here bragging about how gosu you are at chess. You know what though, we have some good players too, one's who are more humble than you.
The reality is that now that we know you use computers in your analysis we don't want it. We here on TL have zero-tolerance for cheaters. Just because you used a computer out of laziness doesn't mean it's not cheating. In fact, convenience was the reason most of the TSL2 abusers gave as there excuse for cheating in the TSL2 ladder. It's probably the oldest excuse in the book. You have no reason to complain about banishment because you were never an established member of this community anyways. And hey, a 2500 like you can probably just go troll some chess corespondent websites.
Chessmaster who cares if you defeat engines, who cares how good you are, in fact nobody here cares how good anyone is except you. If you really are a master then what are you doing wasting your time here with us amateurs and newbies. Go schedule a match against Carlsen or something. Go someplace else and leave us alone.
PS: bragging is a LOT more impressive when you learn proper spelling, syntax and punctuation. No offense, but you write at 3rd grade level. You may or may not be a master or just a kid with a chess engine, the truth is I don't care. Whatever the case, your "analysis" was always borderline incoherent and riddled with mistakes.
Allows us to put a lot of pressure on Black's position. Don't forget that exd5 is an option for us. We respond to Bxd5 with Nc3, and Black's position looks more precarious.
Allows us to put a lot of pressure on Black's position. Don't forget that exd5 is an option for us. We respond to Bxd5 with Nc3, and Black's position looks more precarious.
Theres plenty of ways out of a draw here. We have a queenside pawn majority which I'm hoping we can convert to a passed pawn or two. Black just has to play very carefully if he wants the draw.
I agree with those saying we have a good defensive position, yet it comes with no clear attacking options. Black is also in decent shape positionally, I am not sure I would say we have a queen side pawn "majority".
Either way I guess we will keep going for a few more moves, I just don't see any viable lines of attack short of a major blunder from one side.
A queenside pawn majority means that we outnumber black's queenside pawns. We have 3 pawns, the a, b, and c pawns, vs. black's 2, the a and c pawns. Therefore, we have a queenside pawn majority. In the endgame, having pawn majorities like this is very useful, as you can hopefully be able to create a passed pawn that black has to defend against. In this case, the plan is to play a4 and b4-b5 to challenge black's c-pawn and get a passed pawn. All our play should happen in the queenside unless black tries to do something in the center.
Allows us to put a lot of pressure on Black's position. Don't forget that exd5 is an option for us. We respond to Bxd5 with Nc3, and Black's position looks more precarious.
Allows us to put a lot of pressure on Black's position. Don't forget that exd5 is an option for us. We respond to Bxd5 with Nc3, and Black's position looks more precarious.
If 23. exd5, then cxd5 because then 24. Nc3 is met by e6. Right now black can't take with the pawn because Nc3 wins a pawn for white. Hmm I wasn't thinking that white would immediately take after Rd4 though. I was thinking 23. Nc3, but that would be the mistake. Rd4 is playable if 23. exd5.
However I think 22. exd5 Bxd5 23. Nc3 Be6 24. Re1 followed by 25. Bf1/Ba6 is better for white. The idea is that we line up our rooks on the e-file and attack black's minor pieces. They can't be defended with pawns and they don't defend each other, so they have to be defended by rooks or moved. Except the knight can't be moved after 26. Rde2 because other wise the bishop hangs. A passive black = a happy white.
If 23. ... Bf7 24. Ne4 Rf5 25. Rd4 Bd5 26. Nc3 is good for white White plans to play g4 to force the rook to move or the pawn to take en passant. Lots of tactical goodies here for white. If 23. ... Bg8, 24. Ba6 to threaten to go after the c6 pawn, followed by 25. Re1 and Rde2 to pile up on the knight.
After 22. exd5 our game is much more active. Black is forced to defend passively and his pieces are out of position. Rd4 allows black to blockade the center with a bishop move, followed by e6, or a trade on d5 followed by e6. White gets nowhere after Rd4.
I managed two draws yesterday (another nimzo as black, london system draw with white). Managed third overall, with a guaranteed ratings norm and some cash. Whoo!
Ill be travelling around europe for the next week, but after that ill keep you guys updated on the next tournament.
Game write ups will all be done together as a blog in a few weeks. Id like to put them up for discussion actually, so that I can get everyones ideas, so perhaps I can et some different insights into positions. Maybe a guess the move competition?
Allows us to put a lot of pressure on Black's position. Don't forget that exd5 is an option for us. We respond to Bxd5 with Nc3, and Black's position looks more precarious.
If 23. exd5, then cxd5 because then 24. Nc3 is met by e6. Right now black can't take with the pawn because Nc3 wins a pawn for white. Hmm I wasn't thinking that white would immediately take after Rd4 though. I was thinking 23. Nc3, but that would be the mistake. Rd4 is playable if 23. exd5.
However I think 22. exd5 Bxd5 23. Nc3 Be6 24. Re1 followed by 25. Bf1/Ba6 is better for white. The idea is that we line up our rooks on the e-file and attack black's minor pieces. They can't be defended with pawns and they don't defend each other, so they have to be defended by rooks or moved. Except the knight can't be moved after 26. Rde2 because other wise the bishop hangs. A passive black = a happy white.
If 23. ... Bf7 24. Ne4 Rf5 25. Rd4 Bd5 26. Nc3 is good for white White plans to play g4 to force the rook to move or the pawn to take en passant. Lots of tactical goodies here for white. If 23. ... Bg8, 24. Ba6 to threaten to go after the c6 pawn, followed by 25. Re1 and Rde2 to pile up on the knight.
Wait a second. What's the difference between 22. exd5 Bxd5 23. Nc3 Be6 and the previous line? There's essentially none except you chose to do Be6 instead of e6, which is clearly inferior. I fail to see why Black would not simply play e6 to guard the bishop.
By playing 22. Rd4, we're able to activate our rooks more and give them more coverage and maneuvering room. Black has multiple weaknesses that we can exploit, and if we can swing our rook over to the queen side, we can actively attack more pieces and apply more direct pressure on Black's position.
22. Rd4 as a free move. What would black do? Seems totally tied down at this point, we're going to take on d5 next turn or something. What is the rush.
22. ... dxe4 23. Rxe4 should not happen. White's double rooks on the e file against black's backward pawn is a huge advantage.
22. ... Rd8 only gets his pawn pinned.
So it's something like 22. ... Bf7 which is really no move at all if while plays 23. dxe5
Not playing, but i think Nc3 is a good choice compared to exd5 as well. With Nc3 black will have to take dxe4 or lose a pawn in an exchange/outright. Then you can recapture with the knight and put him on e4 to attack the rook and give your knight a nice centralized spot on the board. I personally think exd5 right now doesn't accomplish as much as Nc3 since white doesn't have to take right away because his d5 pawn will be lost in the next move anyway.
In the end I don't see much of a difference between moving that rook to d4 before or after exd5. They both transpose to pretty much the same position. That said, why be in a rush to play Rd4?
I'd like to see 22. exd5, Nxd5 23. Nc3 e6. I think this is the most playable line for black... who must keep that c5 pawn blocked so will not jeopardize it/ move it on the d file. We can continue to add pressure with 23. b4, Rb8 24. a3 - leaving us with a strong looking pawn formation.
In the end I don't see much of a difference between moving that rook to d4 before or after exd5. They both transpose to pretty much the same position. That said, why be in a rush to play Rd4?
I'd like to see 22. exd5, Nxd5 23. Nc3 e6. I think this is the most playable line for black... who must keep that c5 pawn blocked so will not jeopardize it/ move it on the d file. We can continue to add pressure with 23. b4, Rb8 24. a3 - leaving us with a strong looking pawn formation.
But why rush to trade down when we can gain a positional advantage then trade down? By placing the Rook on d4, we get a lot more coverage with it and can switch strategies much quicker than we can by letting Black solidify his center control with a Bishop on d5.
Just wanted to write before taking the train to Italy, the I received confirmation regarding the ratings norm, so thats two FM norms now, with the potential to pick up a third one next week!
So, for what its worth, if the community wishes it, we may be able to play TL Chess Match III against a Master
In the end I don't see much of a difference between moving that rook to d4 before or after exd5. They both transpose to pretty much the same position. That said, why be in a rush to play Rd4?
I'd like to see 22. exd5, Nxd5 23. Nc3 e6. I think this is the most playable line for black... who must keep that c5 pawn blocked so will not jeopardize it/ move it on the d file. We can continue to add pressure with 23. b4, Rb8 24. a3 - leaving us with a strong looking pawn formation.
But why rush to trade down when we can gain a positional advantage then trade down? By placing the Rook on d4, we get a lot more coverage with it and can switch strategies much quicker than we can by letting Black solidify his center control with a Bishop on d5.
22. Rd4 Bf7 23. exd5 cxd5 24. Nc3 e6 25. Ra4 continuing with a queenside plan, 25. ... Be8 and white can't really seem to get anywhere. Black's center is holding, and he can't really find very good queenside compensation as you suggested.
Sorry for not posting my 23. ... e6 line. Black's bishop may look active on d5, but it really has nowhere to go, and it is necessary for the defense of his weak central pawns.
22. exd5 Bxd5 23. Nc3 e6 24. Ba6! The point of this move is that it stops black from playing a5, which is his key drawing weapon. If black can play a5, then it locks up the queenside and extinguishes white's advantage. White can no longer continue with his plan of b4-b5 because of the a-pawn, and if a3 to back it up, black simply exchanges and has open lines to defend.
For a sample variation of why black shouldn't be allowed to play a5, 22. exd5 Bxd5 23. Nc3 e6 24. Rd4? (allows black to play a5, but he doesnt need to yet) Nd7 25. Ne4 (defending the pawn. the next few moves is black preparing a5 while keeping white busy with the weak c5 pawn) Rf7 (threatening to remove the defender and take on c5. notice black could not have done this earlier because of the intermediate move Rxd7, winning a piece) 26. Nd6 Rff8 27. Rc1 a5 28. Ra4 g5. White really can't make any progress from here. The queenside is locked down, and black's f8 rook is free to come to b8-b4 to trade down white's active options. Black has the center, although he doesn't have any attacking options with it. Draw.
After 24. Ba6!, white is good. No worries about a5, so white can proceed with his queenside plan. Black can't really make progress on the kingside or the center, and cannot really stop white's plans. White should have a definite advantage here.
24. Ne4 would be a terrible move. Black just plays 24. ... Bxe4 and our initiative has disappeared. 25. fxe4, and we have a weak isolated pawn on e4. Our f3 pawn is nonexistent, and black can begin his kingside plan (finally). His knight cannot be displaced as no pawn can attack it, our bishop is the wrong color, and our rook can't get to d5 to attack the knight. 25. ... g5 or 25. ... a5 and it seems pretty clear we have no good plan.
If black manages to get in ... a5, we have troubles as we cannot easily activate our queenside pawn majority. So the simple answer here is 24. Ba6, stopping this threat and opening the e-file for use for our rooks. The d-file will be closed for a long time now, since black has no reasonable bishop moves and capturing it does no good. The e2 square is also open for our knight to maneuver to d4 via e2 if we choose to do so. The d4 square would be a great knight post, attacking the c and e pawns if our bishop can maneuver around the back of his pawn chain. Furthermore, the knight still eyes b5 in preparation for our b4-b5 push when we choose to do so. Alternatively, we could start our pawn storm immediately. It just depends on what black plays.
I think we can safely push that pawn, not much black can do. I like Ba6 fine, but see no reason to commit the bishop to that side just yet.
Black could respond 24... Rb8, then we could play a move which won many votes a few moves back - 25. Rd4 to continue the push. If black plays some other move (presumably one of the rooks will have to move) we should be fine.
24. Ne4 would be a terrible move. Black just plays 24. ... Bxe4 and our initiative has disappeared. 25. fxe4, and we have a weak isolated pawn on e4. Our f3 pawn is nonexistent, and black can begin his kingside plan (finally). His knight cannot be displaced as no pawn can attack it, our bishop is the wrong color, and our rook can't get to d5 to attack the knight. 25. ... g5 or 25. ... a5 and it seems pretty clear we have no good plan.
If black manages to get in ... a5, we have troubles as we cannot easily activate our queenside pawn majority. So the simple answer here is 24. Ba6, stopping this threat and opening the e-file for use for our rooks. The d-file will be closed for a long time now, since black has no reasonable bishop moves and capturing it does no good. The e2 square is also open for our knight to maneuver to d4 via e2 if we choose to do so. The d4 square would be a great knight post, attacking the c and e pawns if our bishop can maneuver around the back of his pawn chain. Furthermore, the knight still eyes b5 in preparation for our b4-b5 push when we choose to do so. Alternatively, we could start our pawn storm immediately. It just depends on what black plays.
I agree with everything you just said. The bishop right now serves no purpose on e2, and a5 is a threat that we should take seriously. Ba6 would put our Bishop into a good location to attack the queen side. Freeing up the e2 square also allows us to play Re2, effectively locking down the Knight for now. If we can keep all of Black's pieces focused on defense (excluding the Bishop, but that's besides the point right now, I think we can get a really good attack on the queen side supported not only with our pawns, but also our Bishop and possibly our Rook that currently sits on d1.
Ba6 was my first instinct after a couple seconds, but I want to see where b4 is headed. I never really looked at or studied midgame and endgame pawn formations and passing situations, so I usually tend not to want to move pawns after the opening, unless it is obvious.
24. b4 is playable but 25. Rd4 just ties up our rook. Also we can't really move the knight until we move the a-pawn first. 24. b4 opens up the game a little too much prematurely before we can capitalize on it. Black's game is cramped and there is little he can do to generate activity. After b4, we just create weaknesses in our game that may give black a chance.
24. b4 Rb8 25. Rd4 g5! and black has some kingside play. He can swing his rook over to the kingside, and our rook is tied down to b4. If black ever moves his knight, he can play e5, forcing us to move the rook and losing the b4 pawn. Ba6 is better, keep with the theme of slowly improving our game while tying up black to passive defense. We can't rush prematurely with b4, otherwise it lets black get out of the box.
24. b4 is playable but 25. Rd4 just ties up our rook. Also we can't really move the knight until we move the a-pawn first. 24. b4 opens up the game a little too much prematurely before we can capitalize on it. Black's game is cramped and there is little he can do to generate activity. After b4, we just create weaknesses in our game that may give black a chance.
24. b4 Rb8 25. Rd4 g5! and black has some kingside play. He can swing his rook over to the kingside, and our rook is tied down to b4. If black ever moves his knight, he can play e5, forcing us to move the rook and losing the b4 pawn. Ba6 is better, keep with the theme of slowly improving our game while tying up black to passive defense. We can't rush prematurely with b4, otherwise it lets black get out of the box.
I think we'd be fine after 25... g5. We could easily play 26. a4 and go on with our plan to pass a pawn. Our night and bishop are in a good spot for an eventual b5 as far as I can tell.
On January 14 2010 05:03 DamageControL wrote: Can someone explain who has the advantage currently and why? Sorry I'm not very good at chess and have been following for a bit now.
Current play considering the latest moves and positioning of all pieces suggests that right now the game is pretty even, meaning that nobody has a signficant advantage.
Now to answer your question of Why ?, well without spoling who's doing what and why, and not spoiling much of my strategy and upcoming plan for my next moves: firstly, material-wise speaking we are balanced, 1 rook, 1 knight and 1 light bishop with 5 pawns each. Strategilcally, I would say at this point both white and black have all their pieces well developed -developed, meaning well positioned on both the attack and defense of key squares of the board; also pawns aren't a real threat to either team, and both kings and high ranked pieces are safe and secure from menaces. all of this in theory... analysis of moves ahead... well like I said, I can't spoil anything, white would probably share their view more in deep.
Overall, in theory white team should share my view, unless I'm missing something which in that case I'm screwed.
25. Nxd5 deserves serious consideration, but 25. Rd4 first may well be better - it's hard to see how Black improves his position.
If Black plays 25...cxd5, 26.b5 Nd7 27.c6 Nb6 28.Ra1 (not Rd4 e5, speeding up Black's play) e5 29.a4, and the best I saw for Black is 29...a5!?, inviting 30. bxa6 e.p. Rxc6 31. Rb2 Ra8 32.Bb5 (else ...Nc4 or even ...Nxa4) 32...Rc5, where the White pawns aren't easy to remove, but also don't look like they're going anywhere.
But White doesn't have to comply, because Black's blockade is breakable. After 29...a5, 30.Rc2 e4 31. c7 Rc8 32. Rac1 Nxa4 33.Rc6, and after Bd1, Black's toast because b6-b7 is unstoppable. 32...Nd7 is no improvement, because after 33.Rxf6 Kxf6 34.Rc6+ Ke7 White doesn't even have to play 35.b6 Nxb6 36.Rxb6 Rxc7 but has the devastating 35.fxe4 dxe4 (if 35...Ne5 36.Rc1 Nc4 (else 37.b6), 37.exd5 Nb6 38.Bg4 1-0) 36.Bg4, and Black just can't move.
Better is 25.Nxd5 exd5, but it doesn't slow White down too much. 26.Rd4 g5 (what else? the f6 Rook will have to move eventually) 27. a4 Nd7 28.Rc1 Re6 29.Bf1 Rc8 30.b5! cxb5 31.axb5 Rxc5 32.Rxc5 Nxc5 33.Rxd5 Re1 34.Kg1 Ne6 35. Rd7+ Kf6 36.Rxa7 h5 37.Kf2 Rb1 38.Rd7 Ke5 39.Bc4! Rb4 (else the Knight is banished) 40.Rd5+ Kf6 41.Bd3 Rb2+ 42.Kf1. Now 42...Ng7 is the only way to stop 43.Rf5+, and it seems like White should win the ending, though perhaps not without difficulty.
Still a bit too early for the b5 push. We should get our king to g1 and get the pawn to a4 before we try for the break. Based on the position of pawns, we (white) are ahead.
25. Nxd5 is bad. 25. ... exd5 26. b5 Nc4 and white seems to have gained nothing except for ruining the chances for his queenside pawn play.
25. b5 cxb5
Black has to take otherwise a4 and white is good. So White has two options, Bxb5 and Nxb5.
26. Nxb5
Black has to protect the pawn. Nc6 allows Nd6 comfortably, and black can't challenge it with Nf7. So theres a5 and Rf7.
26. ... a5 27. Rc1 Rf7 28. Nd6 Rc7 29. Bb5 and white seems to have black on the defensive.
26. ... Rf7 and white can't really do much. Rfb7 is coming next, and a4 as a defense looks pretty weak. Nb5 allows black to get his rooks active with tempo.
26. Bxb5 and black's bishop has to move else he loses a pawn. Bc4 and Bc6 lose pawns after caputres followed by Rd7+. So either Bb7 or Ba8. 26. ... Bb7. White has to worry about Nxf3 tactics.
27. Re2 to stop Nf3, because now white can play c6 and be up material. But white really doesn't get anywhere after this line either.
Conclusion, b5 is not so good for white.
25. a3 and 25. Rd4 are passive. If we play these then it makes no sense to play b5 in the near future. There is really no way that we can improve our position to prepare b5. So if a3 or Rd4, we should abandon the b5 plan. 25. a3 Rff8, stopping b5 and preparing to play g5 (so black won't be forced to take on e4 after Ne4). 26. Rd4 g5 27. Ne4 g4 is a big ouch for white. Bad.
25. Rd4 g5
White is in bad shape. To the suggestion of a4 followed by b5, 25. a4 h6 26. b5 Rff8, black doesn't have to (and won't) take the pawn. And white doesn't want to take on c6 either. So an improving move like 27. Rb1 Rfd8 and black does fine. White is going nowhere.
Unless other analysis comes up I'm pretty convinced we have a draw here, or at least, an equal game.
Hmm looking back at it now Ba6 probably also would fail to Rb8. I guess maybe this was an equal game after all. Somehow black's position always looked inferior to me at first glance, but his passive defense is actually quite resilient.
I'll agree that after 25.Nxd5 exd5, 26.b5 is wildly premature (White plays 26.Rd4; b5 comes later), but that doesn't make 25.Nxd5 bad. Moreover, your "refutation" in 26...Nc4 still lets White draw comfortably after 27.Bxc4 dxc4 28.Rd7+ K-moves (28...Rf7? 29.bxc6) 29.Rxa7 Rxb5 (after 29...cxb5, White doubles on the 7th, and we're not talking about drawing anymore) 30.h3 Rf7 31.Ra3 Rxc5 32.Rc3 Ra7 33.Rd4 =
Agreed, I've been saying this since move 22. Unless there is a big blunder on either side, I don't see much happening. White has a slightly stronger position but black can defend quite comfortably.
I really wanted this game to be epic but apparently it's going to draw I believe that black has played a very strong defense the entire game so how about we force him to go on the offense?
Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't checked this thread for a week or two and the last time I checked I thought white had a clear advantage. It seems both sides are equal now??
Agreed, I've been saying this since move 22. Unless there is a big blunder on either side, I don't see much happening. White has a slightly stronger position but black can defend quite comfortably.
If things stay static, we will have to resort to moving the rooks over to the e file to bear down on exposed backwards E pawn. Part of that plan will be moving bishop to f1 or a6 and exchanging the knight for the d5 bishop. It's a slow developing plan though because we have a lot of weaknesses to shore up first.
Looks drawish but there are chances for play. If black defends with accuracy, I think we have to give it up to him.
26. ... g4 seems like a dangerous move. We're forced to exchange, because if we don't, an exchange later on f3 could result in a fork. We don't want to exchange with our f pawn, so I thought hxg4 would be a better idea. Black's rook can go to h6, but that's not too much of a threat.
Your analysis is a bit inaccurate. Why exactly should black play h5 after Rb2 ? Consider ...h6 cementing the kingside. This allows black to free his passive took by ..Rf7 and place it on a more active central file in the future.
Going into the long term if 26. ... h6 solidifying, we should can continue 27. Re1 Rf5 28. Kf2 securing the f3 pawn that's been threaten this who time. Then, the black bishop becomes a glorified pawn until the e6 pawn moves forward. Still it blocks the activity of our rooks so we will want to get rid of it when the time is right. Tactically, we can pile up on the e-file and exchange the knight for the bishop whenever we choose to.
26. ... h5 attacking 27. Rd4 g4 28 Kf2 and now if black exchanges on f3 white easily takes the open g file with the rook
most intriguing is
26. ... a5 27. bxa5 opening up opportunities for black - this line makes me wish we had played 25. Rd4 instead. Maybe we'll go back to review the possibilities
Your analysis is a bit inaccurate. Why exactly should black play h5 after Rb2 ? Consider ...h6 cementing the kingside. This allows black to free his passive took by ..Rf7 and place it on a more active central file in the future.
Why play h6 solidifying when black can play h5 and attack on the kingside, which is his only active option at this point? Enough said.
26. Rb2 isn't bad, but I'll propose my alternative...
26. Ba6, responding to the threat of 26. ... g4. If 26. ... g4, then 27 Re1! Rf5 28. Nxd5 exd5 29 Rde2 and we win a pawn. So g4 is not an option for black.
I can only think of two other reasonable moves in this situation. Black can play Rf5 or h5. 26. ... Rf5 27. Re1, pressuring the e-file. From here, black should play 27. ... h5, after which we double rooks with 28. Rde2 Ng6 29. Bd3 Rff8 and now b5, and white is good.
27. ... h5 28. Re1 Rf5 transposes into the above line, so I'll look at 28. ... Ng6. 29. Ne4. Now 29. ... Bxe4 doesn't make much sense for black, so he can try 29. ... Rf5 now protecting the g4 pawn. Now 30. Kg1 g4 31. Kf2 and white can defend the kingside.
Interesting plan: 26.Rd4 followed by Ne4, answering the seemingly likely ...Bxe4 with Rxe4, and ousting the Ne5 via B-moves and Rde1 if necessary. Seems hard to get much after (e.g.) ...Ng6 and ...e5 (if necessary), but it may finally get rid of the menace on e5, and after the terribly passive 25.a3, it's pretty hard to care.
The trades are going to start sooner or later I don't know why we keep trying to fortify a very well defended queen side and having a weak structure on king side. Rg1 puts a halt on any trap he could be setting up and let US initiate the trades not him.
I vote 26. Rg1
If someone can show me a problem with this move I will love you long time.
Your analysis is a bit inaccurate. Why exactly should black play h5 after Rb2 ? Consider ...h6 cementing the kingside. This allows black to free his passive took by ..Rf7 and place it on a more active central file in the future.
Why play h6 solidifying when black can play h5 and attack on the kingside, which is his only active option at this point? Enough said.
26. Rb2 isn't bad, but I'll propose my alternative...
26. Ba6, responding to the threat of 26. ... g4. If 26. ... g4, then 27 Re1! Rf5 28. Nxd5 exd5 29 Rde2 and we win a pawn. So g4 is not an option for black.
I can only think of two other reasonable moves in this situation. Black can play Rf5 or h5. 26. ... Rf5 27. Re1, pressuring the e-file. From here, black should play 27. ... h5, after which we double rooks with 28. Rde2 Ng6 29. Bd3 Rff8 and now b5, and white is good.
27. ... h5 28. Re1 Rf5 transposes into the above line, so I'll look at 28. ... Ng6. 29. Ne4. Now 29. ... Bxe4 doesn't make much sense for black, so he can try 29. ... Rf5 now protecting the g4 pawn. Now 30. Kg1 g4 31. Kf2 and white can defend the kingside.
along 26. ... h5 27. Re1 Rf5 28 Rde2 28. ... Nxf3 29 gxf3 Bxf3+ 30 Kg1 Bxe2 31 Rxe2 Kf6 which is about equality even though black trade the two minor pieces for the Rook and two pawns.
26. Ba6 h5 27. Re1 Rf5 28. Ne2! A good move that practically forces g4. White threatens Nd4, winning the knight. If the knight moves now, then Bd3 and white is ahead. So black has to play g4 to give the rook somewhere to move if Nd4. 28. ... g4 29. Nxf4.
The rook can't take back otherwise 29. ... Rxf4 30. Rxe5 gxf3 31. g3 f2+ 32. Rxd5 f1=Q+ 33. Bxf1 Rxf1 34. Kg2 exd5 Kxf1 and white is a pawn up with a better pawn structure. So 29. ... gxf3 30. Nxd5 exd5 31. gxf3. 31. ... Nxf3 is not a true fork, since white can pin the black knight. 32. Rf1 Nxd2 33. Rxf5 and white is slightly better. If black attacks the a-pawn with 33. ... Nc4, 34. Bxc4 and white wins with a better pawn structure and more advanced pawns. If 33. ... h4, 34. b5 and white wins because 34. ... cxb5 loses to 35. c6 and black can't stop the pawn (the nice thing about having the right colored bishop).
So on move 31, black should probably play 31. ... Kf6 defending the rook and getting off the open g-file. 32. Rf2 Rf4. Black can't take the pawn else he'll lose a piece. 33. Rfe2! and black STILL can't take the pawn. 33. ... Nxf3 34. Rf1 with Ref2 to follow. If 34. ... Rf8 to protect the knight after the king moves, then 35. b5 wins. Black can't defend here.
So please ignore 28. Rde2, it does indeed fail to Nxf3. 28. Ne2 is better.
26. Ba6 h5 27. Re1 Rf5 28. Ne2! A good move that practically forces g4. White threatens Nd4, winning the knight. If the knight moves now, then Bd3 and white is ahead. So black has to play g4 to give the rook somewhere to move if Nd4. 28. ... g4 29. Nxf4.
The rook can't take back otherwise 29. ... Rxf4 30. Rxe5 gxf3 31. g3 f2+ 32. Rxd5 f1=Q+ 33. Bxf1 Rxf1 34. Kg2 exd5 Kxf1 and white is a pawn up with a better pawn structure. So 29. ... gxf3 30. Nxd5 exd5 31. gxf3. 31. ... Nxf3 is not a true fork, since white can pin the black knight. 32. Rf1 Nxd2 33. Rxf5 and white is slightly better. If black attacks the a-pawn with 33. ... Nc4, 34. Bxc4 and white wins with a better pawn structure and more advanced pawns. If 33. ... h4, 34. b5 and white wins because 34. ... cxb5 loses to 35. c6 and black can't stop the pawn (the nice thing about having the right colored bishop).
So on move 31, black should probably play 31. ... Kf6 defending the rook and getting off the open g-file. 32. Rf2 Rf4. Black can't take the pawn else he'll lose a piece. 33. Rfe2! and black STILL can't take the pawn. 33. ... Nxf3 34. Rf1 with Ref2 to follow. If 34. ... Rf8 to protect the knight after the king moves, then 35. b5 wins. Black can't defend here.
So please ignore 28. Rde2, it does indeed fail to Nxf3. 28. Ne2 is better.
I don't understand your continuation but 31. .. Rf6 32 Kg1 h4
and I fail to see how this is good for white. Black has a supported passed pawn and now the black bishop on d5 is beautiful instead of being a rather useless piece. Certainly an open and interesting style of play though.
Hey gents leaving for home in two days; do you want my game summaries here or in a blog post? I want to start working on them during the flight. I went +2=6 in the open; not sure if thqt is enough to collect a second (third) rating norm.
26. Ba6 h5 27. Re1 Rf5 28. Ne2! A good move that practically forces g4. White threatens Nd4, winning the knight. If the knight moves now, then Bd3 and white is ahead. So black has to play g4 to give the rook somewhere to move if Nd4. 28. ... g4 29. Nxf4.
The rook can't take back otherwise 29. ... Rxf4 30. Rxe5 gxf3 31. g3 f2+ 32. Rxd5 f1=Q+ 33. Bxf1 Rxf1 34. Kg2 exd5 Kxf1 and white is a pawn up with a better pawn structure. So 29. ... gxf3 30. Nxd5 exd5 31. gxf3. 31. ... Nxf3 is not a true fork, since white can pin the black knight. 32. Rf1 Nxd2 33. Rxf5 and white is slightly better. If black attacks the a-pawn with 33. ... Nc4, 34. Bxc4 and white wins with a better pawn structure and more advanced pawns. If 33. ... h4, 34. b5 and white wins because 34. ... cxb5 loses to 35. c6 and black can't stop the pawn (the nice thing about having the right colored bishop).
So on move 31, black should probably play 31. ... Kf6 defending the rook and getting off the open g-file. 32. Rf2 Rf4. Black can't take the pawn else he'll lose a piece. 33. Rfe2! and black STILL can't take the pawn. 33. ... Nxf3 34. Rf1 with Ref2 to follow. If 34. ... Rf8 to protect the knight after the king moves, then 35. b5 wins. Black can't defend here.
So please ignore 28. Rde2, it does indeed fail to Nxf3. 28. Ne2 is better.
I don't understand your continuation but 31. .. Rf6 32 Kg1 h4
and I fail to see how this is good for white. Black has a supported passed pawn and now the black bishop on d5 is beautiful instead of being a rather useless piece. Certainly an open and interesting style of play though.
Hmm... right. Ok then I vote for Rb2.
26. Rb2 h5 preparing g4, 27. b5 g4. If 27. ... cxb5, then 28. Nxd5 exd5 29. Rxd5 Re6 protecting the knight 30. Rxb5 and white has won a pawn. 28. Nxd5 exd5 and now 29. Rb4 gxf3 30. gxf3. White threatens 31. bxc6 Nxc6 32. Rxb8 Nxb8 33. Rxd5, so black plays 30. ... Rf5 to guard that pawn: 30. ... Rf5 31. bxc6 Nxc6 32. Rxb8 Nxb8 33. Bb5, threatening to push the pawn. 33. ... d4 34. c6 Rc5 35. Rxd4 Nxc6 36. Bxc6 Rxc6 37. Rxf4 and white is winning again. If 30. ... Re8, threatening a discovery on the bishop at e2 if the exchanges take place, then 31. Ra4 wins.
Changes are allowed, they have been so far why would it be different now. You guys sure that it was a tie? Or maybe I am wrong and vote changes haven't been allowed :p
jfazz any word on those annotations? Blog it and let us know!
I say we follow this line since it's actually not terrible to get the two minor pieces for two pawns and a rook given that black's queen side pawn structure is terrible, the two rooks start off in awkward positions, the white king is right on the queening squares of black's two passed pawns, and the bishop and knight coordinate well in this situation.
along 26. ... h5 27. Re1 Rf5 28 Rde2 28. ... Nxf3 29 gxf3 Bxf3+ 30 Kg1 Bxe2 31 Rxe2 Kf6 which is about equality even though black trade the two minor pieces for the Rook and two pawns.
Hi, sorry if this is a stupid question and/or answered already somewhere in this thread, but can I still sign up to get a vote for the TL team in this match?
Hey guys, annotations incoming, im home in two days, so ill try to do one a day after that. What exactly do you guys want? Aside from the games themselves, do you want my analysis, what I was thinking, what the goals were, EVERYTHING? Let me know.
I don't suppose you could post it as an applet so we could play it out easily?? If not we can download it and some engine can just read it in? I'd want to see the game without "spoilers"
Ill post them as text, formatted as per .pgn files, then all you need to do would be to copy them into notepad/wordpad, then open that file with whatever .pgn viewer you use (say crafty, rybka, shredder for example). Then ill field open forum questions on the games.
On January 19 2010 12:44 jfazz wrote: Hey guys, annotations incoming, im home in two days, so ill try to do one a day after that. What exactly do you guys want? Aside from the games themselves, do you want my analysis, what I was thinking, what the goals were, EVERYTHING? Let me know.
For sure... I'm no good at chess, but as I read this thread, I'm learning alot about it, so an indepth discussion would be cool
Oooooo the .png thing is great! But letting us know what you were thinking would be awsomesauce. I probably wouldn't even know what to ask :p
O, also a little title on top of each annotation saying who you played and what opening it was would be greatly appreciated.
jfazz how does one go about getting at least ranked by FIDE, playing a FIDE sanctioned tournament? Were can I find one of those that someone that isn't ranked can join. I noticed Dominican Republic doesn't even have a single ranked FIDE player (how can that be!).
Also what is the WCG/OSL equivalent of chess? The biggest tournament that everyone looks forward too even if they are not playing. I wouldn't mind using some of my miles to go to a a chess tournament in Russia or something as an spectator. I take it if the tournament is big enough there will be some panels or something you can attend as well and that would be swell.
I think continuing along 28. Rde2 Nxf3 29. gxf3 Bxf3 30 Kg1 Bxe2 31 Rxe2
will be fine for us. The pawn on e6 should fall to us rather soon so it'll be a trade of two pawns and a rook for two minor pieces and a pawn. Positionally all our pieces are in the right position.
This set up should allow a nice advanced knight post on d6, and I think we can start picking off some of black's queenside pawns soon. When talking with Incognito, I posed this line in saying that it would be inferior to 26. Kg1 but objectively it's not so bad.
Now we have a really long series of forced moves so maybe go for quick voting again? (this is also a good exercise for newer chess players to try and work out a variation a few moves deep to see its possible)
This forces black to attack indeed, the problem is it gains him equality. In general when playing white, absent a quick tactical variation which forces a win, you want to play to develop an attack whilst stopping any counterplay, i.e. utilizing the first move advantage. With h3 you basically say "go for your plan since I can not think of anything active to do myself". After 28... g4 starting the attack, 29. Nxd5 exd5 30.Rde2 Kf6 31. b5 (finally utilizing the bishop) Nd3 32. hxg hxg 33. fxg4 f3 34. gxf3 Rxf3
Now look at the position. Blacks pieces are immense, central passer will be deadly in a few moves after the roocks are exchanged and blacks queenside is defending comfortably. This loses for white IMO.
Originally thought of moving Red1 for the open file but putting pressure on the knight and moving it from such a central position, and threaten the pawn behind it, looks viable.
Hey Arkhangel. The FIDE ranking comes from playing in FIDE recognised events, which in turn depends upon the central chess organisation in your country. So contacting them would be the best method. For example, I play in state and national tournaments every year, that count towards my rating, as well as a few smaller events now and then (and sometimes on occasion, internationally, when the moon, stars and animal entrails all fall into line).
Sadly, some countries (cough european union ones) have it much easier than the rest of us!
The BIG tournaments every year to watch are Corus Wijk Aan Zee (happening RIGHT NOW!), Morelia-Linares (happenings in a few weeks, considered the #1 tournament), and the Bilbao Super Grandfinal, in November i believe, which is played between the winners of all the year's bigger tournaments. In recent years, the Tal Memorial tournament has also been of great importance.
Also popular are the M-Tel/Sophia tournaments in Bulgaria, and the Nanjing tournament in China.I liked the 2009 London Chess Classic as well. Melody-Amber, the rapid/blindfold tournament is a lot of fun as well, you get to see the super-GMs play crazy stuff!
My chief reccomendation would be to find players of a style you enjoy, and learn from their games, to see how they handle different positons. I use Karpov, Kramnik, Capablanca, Nimzowitch and of course, the great master of blockade and restraint, Petrosian. Youll notice they all at some point played the Caro-Kann, Nimzo-Indian and QID, and were all 1.d4/1.Nf3 players, so my whole repetoire is covered by them.
Damn then my my chances of playing in a FIDE Sanctioned tournament are pretty low. I will try to attend the Bilbao Super Grandfinals, I was planing of visiting Spain anyway later this year.. Morelia-Linares is starting way too soon :p
From the games I've seen in chessgames.com I have really enjoyed the Karpov and Nimzowitch games. Capablanca's games (who apparently is like the Boxer of chess) are sometime way to hard for me to try and figure out what he was going for.
Were can I get updates on the Corus Wjik Aan Zee? Just Google that and see what comes up?
And dude GET BACK IN THE GAME! And by game I mean THIS ONE!
*Random note: Flipping thru the channels I catched an episode of Law & Order: Criminal Intent were one of the suspects is a fugitive Grand Master and the whole theme of the show is Chess. Pretty good episode, and I had never seen it before. /back on topic (more like topics :p)
Lightman I think it's pretty safe to update whenever you want. Seems the vote is almost unanimous.
the other alternative: some what interesting I think:
28. ... Nc4 29. Nxd5 exd5 30 Bxc4 cxc4 31 Rc1 Rd8 definitely back rank rook move on 31 better than moving the 2nd rank rook but this probably not an idea situation
28. ... Nc4 29. Nxd5 exd5 30 b5 not 30. ... cxb5 31. c6 Rf7 32. Re7 and white has a dangerous level of control of the queening squares
I lost interest for a few moves, thinking it'll be a draw. Now that looks like a great result for white, black is ahead on pawns and has a better position. White needs to be careful to even draw.
Edit: well, I think now that he played f3, as opposed to getting the other rook involved first, a draw is not that hard to get.
Only choice we have. If 33... Rbf8, then 24. Bf1. Good queenside attack, active rook attacking a pawn, and a potentially active knight. If 33. Kf1, then our king will be passive, and our bishop would still be doing nothing.
Black likely responds with 33...Rbf8, 34. Bf1 stops the pawn
Here black has 2 options to continue his attack:
- 34..g4. This gets stopped very quickly by 35. Ne4, followed by Rxc6 next move regaining our pawn
- If 34.. h4, we still play Ne4, but with best defence we cannot take the pawn yet because this indirectly loses the knight which now sits on c3.. In fact when previously analyzing this variation I missed black's resources after h4. To me it looks like black has now gained equality i.e. ba6 was a mistake
We need to deny the g3 square to Black. If we play Kf1, we get this line:
33. Kf1 Rf3! 34. Ne4 Rxa3... And we're in quite a bit of trouble now.
In other words, Kg2 is forced. We're not going to stop Rfb8 by the way. It's inevitable. We're going to need to pull the Bishop back to f1 to stop the pawn from queening and dropping a Bishop.
lol ive been reading these tells from jfazz ..im laughing pretty hard ... there are no such thing as FM norms you merely get 2300 and pay a fee .. this is a funny site .. i think you confused with Im norms and gm norms.. get you bullcrap str8
On January 24 2010 00:50 chessmaster wrote: lol ive been reading these tells from jfazz ..im laughing pretty hard ... there are no such thing as FM norms you merely get 2300 and pay a fee .. this is a funny site .. i think you confused with Im norms and gm norms.. get you bullcrap str8
On January 25 2010 12:07 dozko wrote: The only move is 34. Bf1, that pawn must be stopped.
God lightman is playing flawlessly for the last 20 odd moves.
me ?????
what about you guys playing flawlessly for the last 34 moves ???
seriously when the match started I thought it'd be over by move 20, 25 at most, or at least with a significant advantage. We're in move 34 in the middle of an interesting battle with the overall game in a point where anyone can win !
I mean my most sincere congratulations for the fantastic honest effort.
I've thrown you everything I got in my arsenal, yet you've been able to hold your own all through early and midgame, seriously and I'm not holding anything... and wait till the match ends so you can see my notes !
on the otherside this is a real test to hold your will and curious nature not to click on all those SPOILERS all over the place; I'm really wondering what you guys have been analyzing.
35. Ne4 Rf4 36. Kh3 Rf3+ 37. Kg4 Rxa3 38. Kxg5 Ra1 and white has to keep checking in order to stop black from taking the bishop and queening. 39. Rg6+ Kf7 loses, so 39. Re7+ Kh8 40. Kg6 draws.
Actually after 39. ... Kh8 white can play on with 40. Nd2 Rd1 41. Rd7. This seems good for white I think even though black has an advanced pawn.
I think we could have gotten an advantage at move 26. with Rb2, and the game would have turned out a lot differently. I think black wouldn't have been able to get his kingside attack in, and we'd have a passed pawn to show for it all. Anyway, first mistake was move 8. Nc3. I think 8. Nxc6 would have been more accurate, as in the Maroczy bind white's d4 square is left weak. With f5, black tries to undermine d4. The best way to deal with it is to simply get rid of the knight. After 13. Qd2, black played a series of interesting moves. 13. ... Qc7 was interesting, but we responded poorly, as 14. Rfd1 was better than 14. Rad1. I also didn't really expect 17. ... Qe3. I'm probably to blame for pushing the move 18. c5 instead of Qxe3, which would have probably been better. Anyway, certainly not a perfect game by either side.
Interesting game nonetheless, I didn't know the maroczy bind would lead us to such a positional game.
But I was thinking of Nd1 and then bringing our rook back to attack black's past pawn. I'm sure there is some way to refute this but I can't think of any right now.....hmm....maybe g4 followed by h3 refutes it.
The main idea is to stop g4 by gobbling up some pawns, as after 36...g4 37.Kxh4 g3+ 38.Kxg3 Rf3+ 39.Kg2 Rxa3 40.Re7+ Kg6 41. Rc7 white is winning
Better for black is Rf3, but here we still manage to get a small advantage - 36...Rf3+ 37.Kg4 Rf5+ 38.Kh5 39. Kxh4 Rxa3 39.Kxg5 Raf3 40.Rg6+ Kf8. 41.Nd2 Rf5+ 42.Kxh4 Wins all the black kingside pawns
dozko I don't get your Rf3+ line. Seems to have some errors in it, including 37. ... Rf5+ (should be R8f4+?) and the lack of a move for black at 38, along with two moves for 39.
I'm going to assume you mean 36. ... Rf3+ 37. Kg4 R8f4+ 38. Kh5, not allowing 38. Kxg5 Rf5+ 38. ... Rxa3 39. Kxg5 Raf3 40. Rg6+ Kf7, not 40. ... Kf8, which loses a pawn. 41. Nd6+ which does 3 things. 1) checks black, preventing him from attacking. 2) guards the critical f5 square and prevents Rf5+. 3) prepares b5 (its about time). 41. ... Kf8 allows 42. b5, and black loses. So the more sensible try, 41. ... Ke7 stops b5, as now the king is closer to the action. But white simply plays 42. Nc4, protecting b4 and attacking the pawn on c5. Black cannot defend the pawn with the king, which loses to Ne5+, forking the rook and king. Black is bound to lose a pawn here, as the only way to save the c6 pawn is to drop the h4 pawn.
I think the more accurate try from black is what I posted in my previous analysis, and black can play on without the loss of a pawn. Still, I don't think we should offer a draw just yet. We still have some play left in here, and we're not down by any means.
By no reason do I call myself decent, but I would like to know why 36. Nxg5 would not be a good move? Provides support for the rook, which would follow up with 37. Kh3 which would take two pawns in trade for the knight.
On January 27 2010 15:55 Fearliss wrote: By no reason do I call myself decent, but I would like to know why 36. Nxg5 would not be a good move? Provides support for the rook, which would follow up with 37. Kh3 which would take two pawns in trade for the knight.
On January 27 2010 15:55 Fearliss wrote: By no reason do I call myself decent, but I would like to know why 36. Nxg5 would not be a good move? Provides support for the rook, which would follow up with 37. Kh3 which would take two pawns in trade for the knight.
36. Nxg5?? Rg4+ and white loses the knight.
But then 37. Kh3 allowing black to capture knight. Then king can capture h pawn. Forcing black to move his rook out of king capture?? or am I missing something here?
On January 27 2010 15:55 Fearliss wrote: By no reason do I call myself decent, but I would like to know why 36. Nxg5 would not be a good move? Provides support for the rook, which would follow up with 37. Kh3 which would take two pawns in trade for the knight.
36. Nxg5?? Rg4+ and white loses the knight.
But then 37. Kh3 allowing black to capture knight. Then king can capture h pawn. Forcing black to move his rook out of king capture?? or am I missing something here?
Rook is "forced" to move, but it's to somewhere quite good for black. I'm going to be lazy and not look any further, but in the least black can exchange the f pawn for the white bishop.
edit: also mating threat at ..Rh8 since the other rook is on the g file, the king is on the h file, and those pawns would be gone.
On January 27 2010 15:55 Fearliss wrote: By no reason do I call myself decent, but I would like to know why 36. Nxg5 would not be a good move? Provides support for the rook, which would follow up with 37. Kh3 which would take two pawns in trade for the knight.
36. Nxg5?? Rg4+ and white loses the knight.
But then 37. Kh3 allowing black to capture knight. Then king can capture h pawn. Forcing black to move his rook out of king capture?? or am I missing something here?
Rook is "forced" to move, but it's to somewhere quite good for black. I'm going to be lazy and not look any further, but in the least black can exchange the f pawn for the white bishop.
edit: also mating threat at ..Rh8 since the other rook is on the g file, the king is on the h file, and those pawns would be gone.
Thanks, I understand now after looking into it a little further. I guess thats a reason why I am not that good at chess, can't look past the first 4 or so moves.
You are correct I did botch up that variation ignore that /facepalm
However in your variation after 38...Rxa3, I believe 39. Kxg5 is inferior to 39.Rg6+ Kf7 40. Nxg5+ Ke7 41. Rxc6 winning the pawns straight away, unless im missing something...
I chose sicilian opening, though I originally intended to play Alekhine defense I thought many of the white team wouldn't be well prepared for it and perhaps the game would be over soon on an early blunder. I wanted the game to last long and become interesting for all parts. I discareded 1... e5 cause I'm not a strong 1...e5 player, though lately in some blitz games I'm finding that white is less prepared playing 1. e4 e5 than playing the sicilian, yet the wins I've scored is mostly because of white blundering, and not me doing anything special.
I go with Sicilan Dragon, a very rare opening seen these days famously used by Kasparov to dismantle Anand in their 1995 World Championship Title match. Anand who had exclusively prepared for Kasparov's unbeatable Sicilian Shevenigen, was shocked, unprepared and had no answers against the unexpected Dragon. Then again, normally nobody nowadays (well nobody not GM) plays a good Dragon, and I have an extremely high winning ratio with it.
Not only it alters my plan but it brings up one of the openings I dislike most.
It looked like White perhaps didn't want to go through Anand's fate and choses the even more uncommon Marozcy Bind opening, thus avoiding the Dragon/accelerated. Although it was in my home book preparation, this move I didn't expect at all -I mean not to win-, and although I should have knowing that jfazz is a d4 player, it was in the last of my options that white would play.
I continue the Marozcy-Bind lines, but I deviate from 6. ...Nf6, chosing instead 6...Nh6 to spice things up a bit and scare the White team. In my experience Marozcy-Bind gives white a slight advantage overall in the opening, and black chances to win are sllim, yet the majority of the games played are drawn. I don't have any percentages but if I'd had to guess most games would be drawn (this is with perfect play from both sides of course) and some won by white due to black weak defending.
I plan something new also, maybe f5 looking for exf5 from white something like that
My second trap, if you want to call it that way -the first being my attempt to play the Dragon-. White has many options as most of you appointed, the strongest ones being Nc3 and exf5, the former being a more passive drawish option, and the latter bringing a few automatic moves that open up the game a little bit. (8 exf5 Nxf5; 9 Nxf5 Qa5+ 10 Nc3 QxN). I wanted exf5 to win the vote to open up the game a bit, cause Nc3 would make things a bit more difficult for me.
gosh, white's playing passive. oh well here goes nothing.
I keep pressure with the f pawn because now that white castled, it's kind of useless to fight for that square. At this point I know white will follow (or should folllow) with either Bxf4 or Qd2 and even f3. I spent more than an hour trying to decide whether to play f4 or d6, as the game already looks even, so I'm looking for lines to unsettle white.
At this point I'm pretty sure of what's coming, something like 10. Nxc6 bxc6, 11 Bd4, 12 BxB, 13 Qd4........
so on this move I'm concetrating on mid game moves to find an opening and see if I can find a win. It's hard because there aren't many choices and most of the moves should be automatic for both teams, who with perfect play can easliy draw, and I definetly don't want that. I'm also kicking myself for my opening choice, not going for either the Alekhine or the Schevenigen, as I'll say it again, find a win for black on this game is not going to be easy.
I didn't understand this move. I was expecting either the daring c5 or the more profound Qd4+ (that would lead the opening for a premature endgame position after a few exchanges in the middle some 8,10 struggle moves ahead).
I considered white's play as passive not taking advantage of the situation and allowing me to regroup my pieces in the current weaken squares such as d6 (where white should have focused its attack, in my opinion). After much thought and essay of many lines (13... d6 leads to disaster as well as Rd8 or Rb8, and Ba6 doesn't accomplish anything) I can't come up with a better move than 13... Qc7. At this point I see the game as even, so I didn't really bother on focusing on what white can play next, especially after having played passively.
Pretty much forced response that allows defense of both the d7 and the especially the lone but not to be underestimated f4 pawns. I'm risking to get a pin but I don't see many threatning lines from it. I expect white to play either 15. b3, 15. b4 or the unlikely 15. f3
So I get the unlikely 15. f3 that allows me to release tension from my d pawn in a move that should have been done years ago. I allow the possibility of my queen getting attacked by the knight to see if I can free up some space in the middle. I start thinking of exchanging queens to diverse white's attention and see if I can manouver a bit better.
White is agrees with the exchange and starts pushing its c pawn and placing rooks in the open files. I'm faced here with two options, defend the center at all costs or go with another exchange white's b pawn for my d pawn looks fair.
white doesn't want to give his b pawn away, and locks in the middle even more. Why does white keep defending so well ?? At this point I start to realize the game's trend is drawish and winning chances for black are slim. White doesn't have much either on the other hand.
here's when it hit me: maybe if I push for another exchange in the king side, I can get less pieces in the board and since moves are made after voting, well, maybe the best move may not win ? this is a possibility: yes, my end game is my weakness but I believe I can hold my own in end game against a voting game, especially in the conditions we are.
Exactly what I wanted. For the first time in the match, what I planned eventually worked out. Now, the position is delicate. If white doesn't want to push for the win, they can draw with ease. Perhaps the pawn will create pressure ?
Overall good game, a bit tense in the beginning, I tried to create pressure but white created solid defense in the early game.
Through mid game things became a bit slow, white played a bit passive for my taste, some of my moves were too, I tried to create a bit more pressure but White kept defending well, and in a gasp of try to get things moving I went for an exchange to see if I could get the best of White nerves + inexperience, but white kept solid rock defendinng well.
I tried my best to crack's white's defense but you guys kept the guard up, and well I'm not going to blunder to push for a win, so good game !
On December 12 2009 00:16 pokerface wrote: My vote 5.c4 He is playing the dragon variation wich im not very familiar with but my best guess is still 5.c4 cheers :D
On December 12 2009 00:55 Naib wrote: I'm voting 5. c4 as well
Should we not play 5. c4, we will transition into the classic Dragon variation of the Sicilian defence [which I'm very fond of playing against], black's development being g6, Nf6 Bg7 0-0 etc, while we - I at least would - play Be3 Bc4 f3 Qd2 0-0-0. Obviously the moves are not in this order exactly, I'm just throwing out a general gameplan here.
Doesn't playing against the Accelerated Dragon like you would normally against the Dragon allow black to equalize comfortably with an early d5?
[quote] I play a lot of games from this position (otherwise you end up in a king's indian, and why would you want to let them use their heavy home prep?). 5.c4 is THE move of choice in this position. Otherwise, black can equalise fairly comfortably after normal developing moves and a quick d5, even if it comes as a sacrifice (black's positions holds A LOT potential engergy). [quote]
ARGGGGGGGGG
[QUOTE]On December 17 2009 01:57 TheBB wrote: [QUOTE]On December 17 2009 01:19 citi.zen wrote: + Show Spoiler +
I don't like the continuations from 8. exf5. For example Nxf5 leaves his knight in a very strong position, so it almost forces 9. Nxf5 and it seems black can now take the initiative with 9... Qa5+ followed by 10... Qxf5. The bishop at g7 remains troublesome, and 11... 0-0 lines up the black rook and queen nicely... I just don't like all the offensive options black has, it seems we lose initiative and play reactively.
[/QUOTE]
]Me neither. I don't see any reason to let the knight come to f5 so easily, and after Nc3, the pawn on f5 is harmless as far as I can see. Neither fxe4 or f4 are particularly dangerous.[/QUOTE]
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr that's what I wanted to happen ! 8. exf5 and we would have seen some action.
10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Bd4 Bxd4 12.Qxd4 with a noticable edge for white...thats not difficult to find...
arg........then why did Qd2 won ?? haha
On December 21 2009 02:52 jfazz wrote: I don't think it was a 'mistake' but it does give white an edge. I think he is just trying to play as actively as possible, as Sicilian players are want to do. However, against a positional Maroczy, he might be making too many concessions for little gain, which could result in a horrid endgame for him
exactly , especially the bold part
On December 21 2009 11:24 goldrush wrote: I really don't get why he decided to play ...f4. I'm not familiar with the Nh6 plan, but f4 doesn't really help out that Knight's future at all and it removes the central tension for no reason at all. Between the lack of c-file counterplay (and easily blocked b-file), exchange of the dark square bishops and the knight that's going to take a while to get anywhere useful, I think that it's already += at the very least.
Now that I look at it a bit more, maybe it's to secure the e5 square for his knight via f7? It'll still require a couple of tempi and meanwhile, we can play stuff like Nd5 or put pressure on the d-file.
yes, f4 was a risk I took, pretty much like jfrazz said. I'm a sicilian active player. and yes also securing e5
gg lightman. Well played, well played. Enjoy our comments.
I didn't say anything but I don't have a clue on how to play the Sicilian Dragon or most openings. If it was just me, I'd probably fallen into some kind of trap or something. You had me tempted for an exf5 move early on.
On January 15 2010 02:19 Arhkangel wrote: I vote 25.a3 I really wanted this game to be epic but apparently it's going to draw I believe that black has played a very strong defense the entire game so how about we force him to go on the offense?
me playing defense ?? I threw you everyhing I had!!
On January 28 2010 04:00 lightman wrote: ok finished reading all spoilers after an hour.
Do you guys really think I had a chance of winning after 32 ? Should I have brought the rook instead of f3 ???
I missed 34. ... h4 and follow ups.
The sequence tied down the knight down with some defensive duties that I had not expected. based on the position of the king, I didn't see any chance that we would lose and thought that with the bishop and king, we could tied the king side rook and pawns. The white rook on e6 prevented the black king from seeing any action at all. I thought as long as the knight could occupy one of the black rooks a bit, the c6 pawn would fall without a black king to do the bulk of the work preventing queening.
After h4, it was clearly a draw and so it was offered.
I have a single tear going down my cheek :p This was amazing. Absolutely amazing. I am playing a lot of chess now reading a lot and learning at an incredible speed!
This thread is the single most awesome thing that I have done in the last 2 months. It will be fun to have lightman on the team next game bu I will miss jfazz. I am playing 1.d4 as well so this is going to be a more interesting game for me, hopefully I will come out learning a lot about 1.d4 play.
I have to start going down light's notes but I will do that tomorrow.
J post you tournaments notes before the next match!!! PLEASEEEEEEEE!!!
I chose sicilian opening, though I originally intended to play Alekhine defense I thought many of the white team wouldn't be well prepared for it and perhaps the game would be over soon on an early blunder. I wanted the game to last long and become interesting for all parts. I discareded 1... e5 cause I'm not a strong 1...e5 player, though lately in some blitz games I'm finding that white is less prepared playing 1. e4 e5 than playing the sicilian, yet the wins I've scored is mostly because of white blundering, and not me doing anything special.
I go with Sicilan Dragon, a very rare opening seen these days famously used by Kasparov to dismantle Anand in their 1995 World Championship Title match. Anand who had exclusively prepared for Kasparov's unbeatable Sicilian Shevenigen, was shocked, unprepared and had no answers against the unexpected Dragon. Then again, normally nobody nowadays (well nobody not GM) plays a good Dragon, and I have an extremely high winning ratio with it.
Not only it alters my plan but it brings up one of the openings I dislike most.
It looked like White perhaps didn't want to go through Anand's fate and choses the even more uncommon Marozcy Bind opening, thus avoiding the Dragon/accelerated. Although it was in my home book preparation, this move I didn't expect at all -I mean not to win-, and although I should have knowing that jfazz is a d4 player, it was in the last of my options that white would play.
Hmm I'm not all too familiar with the Maroczy bind, but I don't really like the it (well I didn't join the game till move 7?) as it weakens the d4 square and makes the g7 bishop a monster. White is almost forced to play Be3 will eventually have to trade knights, opening the center for black's bishop. White also has to worry about the Bishop for knight trade on c3 if black finds it advantageous to saddle white with doubled isolated pawns. Most likely I'd say it wouldn't be worth it for black, but its still an option that makes me think twice about Nc3 as white.
I continue the Marozcy-Bind lines, but I deviate from 6. ...Nf6, chosing instead 6...Nh6 to spice things up a bit and scare the White team. In my experience Marozcy-Bind gives white a slight advantage overall in the opening, and black chances to win are sllim, yet the majority of the games played are drawn. I don't have any percentages but if I'd had to guess most games would be drawn (this is with perfect play from both sides of course) and some won by white due to black weak defending.
I plan something new also, maybe f5 looking for exf5 from white something like that
My second trap, if you want to call it that way -the first being my attempt to play the Dragon-. White has many options as most of you appointed, the strongest ones being Nc3 and exf5, the former being a more passive drawish option, and the latter bringing a few automatic moves that open up the game a little bit. (8 exf5 Nxf5; 9 Nxf5 Qa5+ 10 Nc3 QxN). I wanted exf5 to win the vote to open up the game a bit, cause Nc3 would make things a bit more difficult for me.
Not really a trap, but it does challenge white's central control. exf5 is clearly inferior here.
gosh, white's playing passive. oh well here goes nothing.
I keep pressure with the f pawn because now that white castled, it's kind of useless to fight for that square. At this point I know white will follow (or should folllow) with either Bxf4 or Qd2 and even f3. I spent more than an hour trying to decide whether to play f4 or d6, as the game already looks even, so I'm looking for lines to unsettle white.
At this point I'm pretty sure of what's coming, something like 10. Nxc6 bxc6, 11 Bd4, 12 BxB, 13 Qd4........
Hmm if you meant f4 to be agressive, I think it does a weak job. f4 forces the trade of knights and dark squared bishops, which pulls the steam out of black's aggression. White is better developed, which means black will have a hard time making aggressive threats. Black's cramped position may call for piece exchanges, but this contradicts Black's desire for an aggressive game. White's pawn on e4 takes away the square for the h6 knight, which will have a hard time getting on the offense. In my opinion, a better offensive try for black would be 9. ... Ng4 10. Bxg4 fxg4, and black has play on the open f-file as well as more options for central/queenside development. Both b6 and d6 come to mind.
so on this move I'm concetrating on mid game moves to find an opening and see if I can find a win. It's hard because there aren't many choices and most of the moves should be automatic for both teams, who with perfect play can easliy draw, and I definetly don't want that. I'm also kicking myself for my opening choice, not going for either the Alekhine or the Schevenigen, as I'll say it again, find a win for black on this game is not going to be easy.
I didn't understand this move. I was expecting either the daring c5 or the more profound Qd4+ (that would lead the opening for a premature endgame position after a few exchanges in the middle some 8,10 struggle moves ahead).
I considered white's play as passive not taking advantage of the situation and allowing me to regroup my pieces in the current weaken squares such as d6 (where white should have focused its attack, in my opinion). After much thought and essay of many lines (13... d6 leads to disaster as well as Rd8 or Rb8, and Ba6 doesn't accomplish anything) I can't come up with a better move than 13... Qc7. At this point I see the game as even, so I didn't really bother on focusing on what white can play next, especially after having played passively.
Qd4+ is useless because of e5. If anything, white doesn't want a queen trade because black's queen is rather useless, while white's has more mobility.
c5 was a move that was considered. I didn't like it after 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3 Ne5 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4. Nice if you're black, but not enticing for white imo. I don't think c5 safely leads to any advantage for white. Unless white has better in the above line.
Pretty much forced response that allows defense of both the d7 and the especially the lone but not to be underestimated f4 pawns. I'm risking to get a pin but I don't see many threatning lines from it. I expect white to play either 15. b3, 15. b4 or the unlikely 15. f3
Rad1, an error. Better was Rfd1, to allow occupation of the c-file by the a1 rook. Ne5, a logical move that makes the knight extremely powerful and forces f3.
So I get the unlikely 15. f3 that allows me to release tension from my d pawn in a move that should have been done years ago. I allow the possibility of my queen getting attacked by the knight to see if I can free up some space in the middle. I start thinking of exchanging queens to diverse white's attention and see if I can manouver a bit better.
there isn't much space.
Hmm, you think 15. f3 was unlikely? What did you think was going to happen instead?
White is agrees with the exchange and starts pushing its c pawn and placing rooks in the open files. I'm faced here with two options, defend the center at all costs or go with another exchange white's b pawn for my d pawn looks fair.
Hmm Qxe3 would have probably been better, leaving black with a weak pawn.
white doesn't want to give his b pawn away, and locks in the middle even more. Why does white keep defending so well ?? At this point I start to realize the game's trend is drawish and winning chances for black are slim. White doesn't have much either on the other hand.
here's when it hit me: maybe if I push for another exchange in the king side, I can get less pieces in the board and since moves are made after voting, well, maybe the best move may not win ? this is a possibility: yes, my end game is my weakness but I believe I can hold my own in end game against a voting game, especially in the conditions we are.
so I start working on an exchange.
Actually I think endgames are good for a voting game. We have more analysts, and there's not a very big stylistic component to endgames. So it is highly unlikely that the voting would be polarized between different moves imo.
Exactly what I wanted. For the first time in the match, what I planned eventually worked out. Now, the position is delicate. If white doesn't want to push for the win, they can draw with ease. Perhaps the pawn will create pressure ?
I feel that the game is far from over at this point. I can't say exactly what lightman had in mind, but I think that white can pick off black's kingside pawns while keeping enough pressure on black so that he cannot really utilize his rooks to harass the black king. I mentioned a few lines in my last few posts, so I won't go into more detail, but I'd like to ask lightman what he had prepared to counter that. It seems to me as if white maintains enough of an advantage to be able to play on without fear of losing the draw. Black is on the defensive here.
Overall good game, a bit tense in the beginning, I tried to create pressure but white created solid defense in the early game.
Through mid game things became a bit slow, white played a bit passive for my taste, some of my moves were too, I tried to create a bit more pressure but White kept defending well, and in a gasp of try to get things moving I went for an exchange to see if I could get the best of White nerves + inexperience, but white kept solid rock defendinng well.
I tried my best to crack's white's defense but you guys kept the guard up, and well I'm not going to blunder to push for a win, so good game !
10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Bd4 Bxd4 12.Qxd4 with a noticable edge for white...thats not difficult to find...
arg........then why did Qd2 won ?? haha
Because you didn't play 11. ... Bxd4, so the move 12. ... Qxd4 was not a possible move.
Anyway, I was playing the game on the idea that you were on the defensive, not us. It seems like you had the opposite idea that you were trying to break our defense. As far as I'm concerned I still think you were the one defending, at least up until maybe around move 22. Then it was probably about even.
wow things got real tense between you guys when voting c5 against Qd2, which eventually won
digging into the spoilers, I think 15. f3 Qb6+ pretty much killed the game.
15. Qd4 should have won, or even 15. Kh1
15. Qd4 doesnt seem too strong to me. 15. ... Rb8 16. b3 and white really can't get anywhere. There's no effective way to attack the pinned piece, and there seems to be no solid way to attack black. Black has a whole arsenal of options, including a5, d6, Ba6, c5. Really, black can do anything he wants to, as white doesn't have enough of a concentration of force to produce any meaningful threats.
I don't see how 15. Kh1 helps white either. A passive move, ok, like Qd4 or f3. But it doesn't serve any other useful purpose other than to vacate the a7-g1 diagonal. If we're not playing f3 it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to do that.
I missed 34. ... h4 and follow ups.
The sequence tied down the knight down with some defensive duties that I had not expected. based on the position of the king, I didn't see any chance that we would lose and thought that with the bishop and king, we could tied the king side rook and pawns. The white rook on e6 prevented the black king from seeing any action at all. I thought as long as the knight could occupy one of the black rooks a bit, the c6 pawn would fall without a black king to do the bulk of the work preventing queening.
After h4, it was clearly a draw and so it was offered.
I fail to see the draw, at least in the immediate future. What would have happened if the game had gone on?
Anyway, a good game, nice defense (unless we really were on defense? I dont think so) by lightman. Thanks for hosting the game.
Yeah, Inc lightman is under the impression we were the ones with the strong defence :p Man that was soooooo insightful. Some stuff I didn't know we were supposed to be thinking about hahahaha.
Incognito, my next move would have been 36.... Rf3 +
what would you have played ? or if anyone wants to continue the match but now as friendly post match analysis
arkangel,
this match and the previous one has shown that TL has good players, playing jfrazz is going to be exciting, like you said you lose him but you gain me, and afterwards, a lot of the other members are worthy challengers too: citizen, myrmidon, incognito, athos,, etc..... especially since we're playing for fun, I think everyone deserves to be aa challenger, soon we might be even playing YOU !
as I read through all your spoilers, I was fascinated of the insight and deepness of your analysis, it makes me feel like I put as much effort as everyone of you did.
about playing jfrazz, this is simple, if we get black he'll prolly show us some Nf3 ala Kramnik Reti or Slav, and if get white and play 1.e4 (which I vote), he'll bring up his beloved Caro.... right BUDDY ??
if we get white and play 1. d4 he'll either Slav or Catalan, most likely catalan ala Kramnik... right BUDDY ? hahahaha.
if I would have been in white's team I would have played
well, for starters I would have played the Dragon itself, not the MB, bbut up to say move 8
8. exf5 instead of Nc3 13. Qd4+ instead of Qd2 14. Rfd1 instead of Rad1 15. b4 instead of f3 18. Qxe3 instead of c5 21. b3 was a tough one.......maybe I would have gone with the pawns exchange instead 26. Ba6.... nah maybe Rd4.
I can tell you right now that as white, you'll get 1.d4 - its a correspondance game so I can bring my nastiest analysis out But the voting isnt going that way, so:
As black, against:
1.e4 - a caro-kann system. If you want to avoid really heavy analysis, you could try one of the rarer systems, such as the fantasy. Alternatively, the lines with Bc4 instead of Bd3 (classical) with ideas of sacs on e6 for two pawns and taking away castling, could lead to fun games.
1.d4 Nf6 then you choose. I play Nimzo/QID structures against most white options (2.c4 or colle/london etc). I wouldnt mind playing against a catalan actually, I play it from the white side so I have a good idea from the black side as well, though I admit, its always easier for white!
1.Nf3 Nf6 etc etc
1.c4 c5 or e5; depending on how I am feeling
Ill go open a new topic with signups now, ill play the black pieces.
Yeah 37. Kg4. Maybe we can continue playing out moves just for fun?
I wouldn't mind playing a caro. It might not be so enticing for an aggressive player, but there are still attacking chances in it. If jfazz plays white I'm pretty sure I'd play it safe and play for equality.
So, guys, I have a question for the people here. I need a line to play after 1.Nf3 c5; one book I have on the subject offers that I play c4 planning for a fast d4, which I really don't like, and I can't find the other I have on the subject. I don't play at a very high level, about 1500 USCF, so I was thinking about just consenting to e4 and playing sharply, but I don't really want to play any sidelines that I'm aware of and think that learning the mainline theory isn't so practical. At one point I was even looking at d4, c3 with the pawn sac for something interesting. It doesn't come up often and I realize that there are bigger problems that I need to fix when I'm 1500, but at the same time I like to know what I'm doing in the opening at least. Currently, I play c4 and just play slowly, but that isn't really too my taste either.
My personal preference tends towards imbalanced positions, but not ones that are too wild and focused on tactics, which is how I came to 1. Nf3 after getting annoyed with e4 e5 and d4 d5; on d5 I like to play c4 immediately, which creates a lot of interesting complications, but ones that don't involve sacrificing pieces for the attack without the other player going seriously wrong. That's the sort of game that I'm looking for. I'm thinking of other openings, but for the time being I would like to stick with what I'm familiar with. I am in high school and would be playing against other high schoolers, so I don't think that anyone is going to have any particularly deep theory, if that matters; somewhat sound gambits anywhere are fine.
Hey guys, thought I'd pop in and get a book rec. if that's alright?
I'm pretty bad, if my FICS rating is any indication but I think my tactics are decent. I win most games that go 1. e4 e5 and lose most that go 1.e4 c5. I just get to points where my pieces are developed and I don't know what to do next. So I want a book that will improve my general play (probably mostly the middlegame) more than one that focuses on tactics or a specific opening. I would be open to a book on endgame as long as it is pretty elementary and wide in scope. Same thing goes from openings.
I have Chess Fundamentals and My System, but I have not read them. I have them on my computer, and I'm looking for a book that I can buy so that I can study away from the computer. I've read about a third of Chernev's Logical Chess, and it seems a little too basic but it's definitely possible that I've been studying it in a non-optimal way.
So a book that is general in scope and pretty decent for noobs? Any thoughts on Chernev's Most Instructive Games, Del Rosario's A First Book of Morphy, various Silman books? More recent move-by-move books?
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lightman United States
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