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On December 17 2009 09:02 jcu wrote:exf5 Something to think about: + Show Spoiler +Nc3 doesn't really save any tempi since black still has fxe4 nxe4 qa5+ and then the knight must block the check unless you want to play an ugly move like bd2 or kf1. exf5 looks strong to me. one possible line: exf5, nxf5, nxf5, qa5+, nc3, qxf5 c5! All this is pretty much forced and c5 creates problems for the development of the light squared bishop. After this black maybe has some options like qe5 and 0-0 that you guys can look at. qe5 may net him the bishop pair at the cost of further falling behind in development. 0-0 looks weak due to qb3+ and rd1.
I actually like the positions with black's queen "active" in the centre because we can attack it at some points with the three minor pieces and eventually our rooks. Our goal is possibly to use our development advantage to put pressure on his centre and maybe kingside while we keep his queenside hemmed in. He eventually will have to push his central pawns or go for some b6 maneuver and we have to be ready to chop off some pawns when they push and weaken themselves.
Delay moves like nc3 and 0-0 are also interesting with the idea of not allowing him qa5 check. nxc6 leads to an endgame with some winning chances but I prefer to keep the queens on the board. Queens are interesting :D The sharper nature allows us more chances to win.
I think these are good points. I will switch my vote from Nc3 to exf5.
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So far a very close run with 24 hours to close votings and standigs are at.
exf5 - 7 votes
Nc3 - 5 votes
Bxh6 - 1 vote
Nxc6 - 1 vote
I'm eagerly curious on what you guys are debating, I'm sure it's great stuff. Choose wisely and this game will be up for some interesting puzzles in the upcoming moves.
Question for the white team: I recieved a couple of PMs of guys wanting to join the white team. Should we allow these requests or not ? Please let me know.
An instructive comment for newcomers and learners on where we are:
At this point both white and black are debating whether if we want to continue the lines of the opening (Maroczy-Bind), or if we want to move out of the book right away -moving out of the book meaning: to start playing moves of our own-. If this is to happen, the game will then leave early game phase and initiate the fascinating stage of "middle game".
This would be the equivalent of you having finished your 2 fact 1 star build on a TvP game with say 2 tanks 4 vults and a dropship, and now you figuring out what is it you want to do with those units and how to gain an advantage.
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Question for the white team: I recieved a couple of PMs of guys wanting to join the white team. Should we allow these requests or not ? Please let me know.
It says quite clearly in the OP that signups are open.
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I was out of my book on move 1, but returned to book on move 4 :D
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i don't really go with any chess openings in general, I just play and improvise my way through
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On December 18 2009 01:50 jfazz wrote:
I was out of my book on move 1, but returned to book on move 4 :D
haha on first sight I thought I read "I was out of the closet on move 1"
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Hello TL, I finally decided to stop lurking your site for this thread.
exf5 is a bad move that activates black's knight. Such a move would be doing our opponent a favor. exf5 would also weaken our center and strengthen black's.
Nc3 is a far more logical choice as it develops our knight.
Right now there are no major threats to worry about so we should just finish our development.
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are you participating in the match or just posted that to enlightnen us ?
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Oh wow, I didn't think about if knight takes O_o.
I change my vote to Kc3
That really would be giving something away.
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Nc3 + Show Spoiler + exams don't give me much time to do analysis, but I took a quick look at the more forcing moves and I don't think that there are too many pitfalls in just continuing development.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I did lengthy analysis of the line back when I was proposing h3. I'll go with exf5.
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On December 18 2009 09:15 Athos wrote:
Oh wow, I didn't think about if knight takes O_o.
I change my vote to Kc3
That really would be giving something away.
KING TO C3 ??
are you aware we are playing occidental chess, not japanese chess ?
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what are occidental and japanese chess?
I think he misinterpreted the notation. He means knight.
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+ Show Spoiler +8.exf5 is pretty risky but it is a possibility from what I can see. Once 9.exf5 Nxf5 10.Bn4 eliminates the current Knight threat since his queen is trapped and 11.g5 will force him to get his knight out of harms way but I may be missing something. The downfall is loosing that center control
On the other hand 8.Nc3 looks like a strong move because now we would have some very serious control. After everything is traded it would help us secure a good position for the late game. IMO the strongest move. It just traps black in every direction. If I was light this would be my fear.
I don't like 8. Bxh6 Bxh6 because it looks like you are putting a restraint on you Queens movement which I don't like specially after you lost your rook. c4 Nd4 and e4 look hella vulnerable. You loose a lot of control that we have worked up in all the past moves.
8. Nxc6 looks interesting and is probably the one that is going to speed the game up the most. If it goes according to jfazz first line (which has a typo on 10. is Kc7 not Qc7) I guess the game is about putting pressure on him with the castles and if it goes according to his second line (which looks like the most probable) then the game is pretty much over, my fear is if it STARTS going according to that line but lightman does some shenanigan with the advantage we give him for those first couple of moves and we cant get it back.
My heart wants to play 8.exf5 or Nxc6 because I want an interesting game but I think Nc3 is the
better choice, it's safer we got time and I don't want the game to end because I want to keep learning!
My vote goes for Nc3
I'm starting to get the hang of this one step at a time. If I missed something behind the proposed moves please bring it to my attention as I am trying to learn as much as possible from this game so that I can give some decent input on the next TL Chess Match.
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+ Show Spoiler +I think all the variations lead to the same place. If 8. exf5, then Nxf5 9. Nxf5 Qa5+ 10. Nc3, like previously stated. 8. Nxc3 gives black a free move, and 8. ... 0-0 and black looks ok. How about 8. Qd2? This move threatens 9. Bxh6, winning a piece. If either 8. ... Nxd4 or Bxd4, then 9. Bxd4 N/Bxd4 10. Qxd4 0-0, and white controls the center. If the knight on h6 moves, then 9. exf5 ruins black's kingside pawn structure. If 8. ... f4, then 9. Bxf4 Nxd4 10. Bxh6 Bxh6 11. Qxd4 and again white has central control, and has won a pawn.
If 8. ... fxe4, then 9. Nxc6 dxc6 10. Bxh6 Qxd2+ 11. Bxd2, forced. 11. ... Bxb2, forced if black wants to get some material back. 12. Bc3 Bxa1 13. Bxa1 0-0 14. Nd2 leaves the Bishop open on the powerful a1-h8 diagonal 14. ... Bf5 15. g4 and white gets two minor pieces for a rook and pawn. All of this variation is pretty much forced. After black's f5 bishop moves, white must play Be5 to stop black's rook from coming to f4, winning back the pawn after Nxe4. I generally prefer the two minor pieces to the rook and pawn, and I think from here white's plan is to use the a pawn as a battering ram to break apart black's queenside. After the knight takes on e4, white's pawns on c4 and g4 along with his e5 bishop and e4 knight provide dominant central control while Black's rooks are passive. He only has the open d file and the half open f file for his use, however, white's minor pieces work very cohesively and control ALL the squares on both files except for the 7th and 8th ranks.
I think that covers all of the reasonable moves for black after Qd2. If you find any others let me know.
For now I vote Qd2.
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Incognito what about + Show Spoiler +8... Qb6. If he plays Qb6 then we are on the loosing end of every trade. He forces us to play exf5 and if he ignores f5 and goes for the Knight in d4 we are screwed.
Qb6 seems like a very odd move that can end up being very favorable for Black if played right under a lot of circumstances. Specially yours since that Qd2 move will end up being irrelevant and we loose the advantage.
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+ Show Spoiler +8 ... Qb6 is not a good move for black since he is lining up his queen for a discovered attack.
9. Nb5 blocks the attack on the b2 square and attacks the queen simultaneously. If the queen moves to a safe square, say, 9. ... Qd8, then we play 10. Bxh6 for a free knight.
If the Queen looks to divert the queen's attack on h6 with Qa5, white simply trades queens and after 11. ... Nxa5 12. Nc7+ forks the rook and king. 12. ... Kd8 or Kf7, and 13. Nxa8. After 13. ... Bxb2 14. Bxh6 Bxa1, white has won a piece for a pawn, and after the pawn exchange 15. exf5 gxf5, black's pawn structure is ruined weak and white definitely has the advantage.
So I think Qb6 is definitely a weak response from black.
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On December 18 2009 14:53 jfazz wrote:
analysis in spoilers.
Wait is this so that lightman doesn't see our analysis?
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EPT
