EPTTL Chess match II - Page 12
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RandomAccount#49059
United States2140 Posts
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TheBB
Switzerland5133 Posts
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
On December 14 2009 19:42 jfazz wrote: Kramnik is the greatest of all time in my mind, because he was the most dominant player in the modern era, which has had the stongest players of all time. Im not going by rating (to do so would suggest that Karpov at his peak wouldnt even be world top 10, which is of course, ridiculous). Kramnik HAS very much changed chess culture and fashion. Remember the King's Indian defence? Once one of black's most popular responses to 1.d4? Wiped out from GM play by Kramnik's 9.b4 bayonet attack (scores almost 68%!). Remember the slav? That was the ugly cousin of the QGD until the late 90s and Kramnik. The petroff or berlin defence? He is their hero. The reti opening? No one made better use of 1.Nf3 than Vlad. Kramnik changed the way top players would have to prepare for tournaments. Openings played by players their whole career became useless. He made the anti-QID/Nimzo opening work. The catalan went from relative obscurity to one of the most popular openings at GM level. The level of endgame play has greatly increased under his guidance (he is, without doubt, the greatest endgame player of all time). Vlad is a subtle guy. He won't be remembered for dashing attacks, new openings or memorable quotes. What his legacy will be is difficult to say. But whatever does happen, he beat the commonly held strongest player of all time without losing a game. That has to count for something. Greatest endgame player of all time? Better than Smyslov or Capablanca or Fischer? He has some great endgames, sure, but all of the world champions do. At the very least, it isn't indisputable. There are plenty of players who've changed chess culture as much as Kramnik has. And I'd actually argue that his contribution to changing the opening strategies is no more than any other champion. Chess openings come and go, sometimes something is in style and then it fades, usually following the world champion's repertoire. For example, Kasparov and Fischer and the Najdorf boom. The thing is, it's hard to say that it's because of him that the play has become so much more exacting. He happened to coincide with the computer age where everything has become more precise and every move, in both the endgame and the openings, counts for so much more. As for beating the strongest player of all time in a match; look at starcraft and the scrubs that've beaten some of the best in matches. I'm pretty sure that Kasparov and before him, Botvinnik, were the forefathers of the current modern approach to tournament preparation. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I'm just curious because I personally think that Kasparov, Karpov and Capablanca (to give three examples) during their careers surpass Kramnik in almost all of the commonly held measurements of 'greatness'. | ||
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CynanMachae
Canada1459 Posts
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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GW.Methos
United States249 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] + h3 removes the g4 square from the knight, but much more securely than Be2 because once Black moves d6, the knight can move to g4 again. Whatever black moves, we can then pressure with Qd2, which pressures some desperate play from black to save that knight. Most logically, I think black would try f5 or Qa5+, but Qa5+ gets us free development and a good position to work with and f5 leaves black with a weakened kingside. Play would continue as 9... Qxf5 (taking with the pawn leads to Qh5+), 10. Bd3 , and any Queen move allows us to castle. We now have a good position with all our minor pieces developed, while black has a trapped bishop and a rather broken king side. Other alternatives: 7. Nc3 - No. I think this will end up happening: 7... Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4. Then we have to move 9. Qd1 or else our Rook drops. Further play gets ugly, at least in my view. 7. Be2 - Naturally develops a piece, enables castling for us, and stops 7... Ng4. The queen is tied down to the knight on d4, and I don't like the idea of a knight occupying that center square with no pawns to push it out. I think it's natural, but not the best move. I made my decision before going back and looking over jfazz's analysis; it looks like Be2 is a just as solid continuation. I'm looking to discourage d6 from ever happening, which gives us a more secure center. Not only that, but I think you're wrong in your analysis of d6 jfazz. See below: + Show Spoiler [d6 Analysis] + Your line of d6 was: 7...d6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.0-0 probably ...f5 or ...Ng4. I'd say that f5 leads black into an equalizing position because of: 9... f5 10. exf5 Bxd4 11. Bxh6 (else we definitely lose the advantage) Rxf5. From here, black has a decent position to work with. Although the kingside is blasted open, I see no possible ways for white to take advantage of it. After 11... Rxf5, I think play would follow: 12. Rc1 (unless you want doubled isolated pawns) Qb6! From here we're forced on the defensive. I might have messed something up somewhere in my analysis though. | ||
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proberecall
United States104 Posts
On December 15 2009 10:32 Mystlord wrote: 7. h3 + Show Spoiler [Analysis] + h3 removes the g4 square from the knight, but much more securely than Be2 because once Black moves d6, the knight can move to g4 again. Whatever black moves, we can then pressure with Qd2, which pressures some desperate play from black to save that knight. Most logically, I think black would try f5 or Qa5+, but Qa5+ gets us free development and a good position to work with and f5 leaves black with a weakened kingside. Play would continue as 9... Qxf5 (taking with the pawn leads to Qh5+), 10. Bd3 , and any Queen move allows us to castle. We now have a good position with all our minor pieces developed, while black has a trapped bishop and a rather broken king side. Other alternatives: 7. Nc3 - No. I think this will end up happening: 7... Ng4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4. Then we have to move 9. Qd1 or else our Rook drops. Further play gets ugly, at least in my view. 7. Be2 - Naturally develops a piece, enables castling for us, and stops 7... Ng4. The queen is tied down to the knight on d4, and I don't like the idea of a knight occupying that center square with no pawns to push it out. I think it's natural, but not the best move. I made my decision before going back and looking over jfazz's analysis; it looks like Be2 is a just as solid continuation. I'm looking to discourage d6 from ever happening, which gives us a more secure center. Not only that, but I think you're wrong in your analysis of d6 jfazz. See below: + Show Spoiler [d6 Analysis] + Your line of d6 was: 7...d6 8.Nc3 0-0 9.0-0 probably ...f5 or ...Ng4. I'd say that f5 leads black into an equalizing position because of: 9... f5 10. exf5 Bxd4 11. Bxh6 (else we definitely lose the advantage) Rxf5. From here, black has a decent position to work with. Although the kingside is blasted open, I see no possible ways for white to take advantage of it. After 11... Rxf5, I think play would follow: 12. Rc1 (unless you want doubled isolated pawns) Qb6! From here we're forced on the defensive. I might have messed something up somewhere in my analysis though. Sell me more on 7. h3 cause + Show Spoiler + maybe he is just scaring us and that's what he exactly wants us to play a passive move as 7. h3 I'm deciding between Be2 Nc3, don't cast my vote yet | ||
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jfazz
Australia672 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 12.Qd2 a) 12...Qb6 13.Bd3! Rf7 (forced) 14.Nb5 Bc5 15.Bf4 followed by Bg3 and white has a lasting endgame plus based on his superior pawn structure. Better may be 14.Be3 Bg4 15.h3 Bf5 16.Bxf5 Rxf5 17.Nd5!! Qxb2 18.Qxb2 Bxb2 19.Rab1 Bf6 20.Rxb7 and white looks winning. b) 12...Qa5 13.Rc1 Be6 14.Nb5 Qxd2 15.Bxd2 and black will have a slight pull going into an endgame, often with better pawn structure after a minority attack. this actually looks pretty close to winning after everything is traded c)12...e6 13.Be3 just looks awkward for black.  | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
ill vote 7.Be2 | ||
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On December 15 2009 11:58 jfazz wrote: @ Mystlord, after 11...Rxf5 + Show Spoiler + 12.Qd2 a) 12...Qb6 13.Bd3! Rf7 (forced) 14.Nb5 Bc5 15.Bf4 followed by Bg3 and white has a lasting endgame plus based on his superior pawn structure. Better may be 14.Be3 Bg4 15.h3 Bf5 16.Bxf5 Rxf5 17.Nd5!! Qxb2 18.Qxb2 Bxb2 19.Rab1 Bf6 20.Rxb7 and white looks winning. b) 12...Qa5 13.Rc1 Be6 14.Nb5 Qxd2 15.Bxd2 and black will have a slight pull going into an endgame, often with better pawn structure after a minority attack. this actually looks pretty close to winning after everything is traded c)12...e6 13.Be3 just looks awkward for black. Hmm... Ok let me see... + Show Spoiler [Analysis] + a) 15... Be6 16. Bg3 Ra8-f8 17. Nc3 Qb4 18. b3 Ne5 19. Be2 Bg4 ... At this point the game feels like the threats are building up for white while Black's position is rather solid. A pawn push for Black feels really threatening. As for your other line, why not 14. Be3 Bxe3 15. fxe3 Be6 16. Rxf7 Bxf7 17. Rf1 Rf8 18. b3 Be6 19. Rxf8 Kxf8 20. Qf2 Kg7. I see an about equal position from here. Now I'll expand on my h3 line... 7. h3 f5 8. exf5 Nxf5 9. Nxf5 a) 9... Bxb2 10. Nd2 gxf5 (Bxa1 leads to a bad position for Black, as all of his pieces are clamped down) 11. Qxh5+ Kf8 12. Qxf5 Kg8 13. Rb1 and White clearly has a good position from here. b) 9... Qa5+ 10. Nc3 Qxf5 11. Bd3 Qf7 12. 0-0 0-0 13. c5 d6 14. cxd6 exd6 15. Bc2 Qe7 16. Qd2 Be6 17. Ra-d1 Be5 18. Rf-e1... You can see where this is going. That pawn on d6 has suddenly become a huge liability for Black. I see White with a clear attacking advantage from this position. I'm still for h3 by the way | ||
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jfazz
Australia672 Posts
i sat down and played with the pieces, and although black gets good activity, I cannot see how he can generate a decisive attack. The best I can get is repitition of moves by both sides, alternating different ways of attacking and defending f2. Black cannot pawn push on the kingside because it exposes his king too quickly - white has sufficient activity to punish such an endeavour, as the white queen can always penetrate on the dark squares, onceblack is forced t resolve his central pawn structure, with the dark square bishop on c5 or d4. As for the second line, starting with 14.Be3, the move 16.Nd5 is an improvement over your 16.Rxf7; but still leads to an endgame, where white has a slight pull when the major pieces come off, with pawns all over the board in such a fashion as to give a small advantage to the side with a bishop vs knight. | ||
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lightman
United States731 Posts
Be2 - 7 votes h3 - 1 vote g3 - 1 vote Nc3 - 1 vote undecided - 2 votes about 10 players still haven't voted yet. voting closes tomorrow. | ||
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jcu
Canada93 Posts
After Be2, d6 I dont think it's possible to play ng4 after nc3 because there's the intermezzo (in between move) nxc6. For eg. be2, d6, nc3 and now bg4 is a mistake since white has nxc6 and if bxc6 winning a free bishop. If nxb, nxd8 qxd1 and rxd1 protecting the knight and probably winning. h3 is okay but its a bit passive. It depends what type of plan you are going for later. h3 and a3 though are usually good moves if timing isn't too important in a position. Feel free to correct me, if I've overlooked something as I'm not using a board and am out of practice by 6/7 years. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
Be2 | ||
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
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lightman
United States731 Posts
7 Be2 wins the voting and now I play 7... f5 next move voting closes on Friday. 8. about the game: I added both a green and dark board with a bunch of space between them given the fact that a few users preferred one instead of the other, that way everyone's happy (as long as none comes up asking for a blue board or a yellow board or a rainbow board). about kramnik's endgame: I strongly differ here on kram being the best endgame player and I agree with whoever said Capablanca and Fischer were the best endgame players ever, Capablanca slightly above Fischer. Once the game reached and endgame position there was nothing you could do against Capablanca, at least that's what I've seen from all his games. Capa never missed a draw or a victory in an equal to equal endgame position. Same applies for Fischer but in a lesser degree. Kramnik missed a lot of clear wins (or drawing) chances in his career, again not saying that he's bad, he's definetly top class, but not in Capa or Fischer's league regarding endgame. Kramnik's strength is def early and mid game. | ||
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jfazz
Australia672 Posts
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