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On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
I'm the unofficial Defense Force because I don't think it is a bad show, I think it's a good show with glaring flaws. I don't get the hate for AoT and Aldnoah; it's really baffling that writers or studios who try cool, original concepts or clever writing get shit on. It's like the entire anime fan-base is opposed to change or something. Yeah, critique the bad elements of each show, but to absolutely deem them bad makes scares me for the future of the anime industry if everyone stops trying these things because they're too financially risky -- "well, guys, I guess we have to go back to catering to otakus only."
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
What do you mean by this?
"Ambitious" is a relative term to the industry as a whole. Specifically, in this case, it's ambitious in it's science-fiction endeavours -- every fancy gimmick they've pulled so far has held-up to scientific scrutiny -- and mixing a lot of these scientific elements in to how the plot unfolds. The story is a little ridiculous at times, but if you aren't held-up by convenience, everything is quite plausible.
Sadly, a lot of these elements make the dumb stuff in the show much more glaring.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
I'm the unofficial Defense Force because I don't think it is a bad show, I think it's a good show with glaring flaws. I don't get the hate for AoT and Aldnoah; it's really baffling that writers or studios who try cool, original concepts or clever writing get shit on. It's like the entire anime fan-base is opposed to change or something. Yeah, critique the bad elements of each show, but to absolutely deem them bad makes scares me for the future of the anime industry if everyone stops trying these things because they're too financially risky -- "well, guys, I guess we have to go back to catering to otakus only."
In addition to my previous question, how does this apply to Aldnoah Zero? I'll leave Attack on Titan out of this, since thats a whole different can of worms.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
I'm the unofficial Defense Force because I don't think it is a bad show, I think it's a good show with glaring flaws. I don't get the hate for AoT and Aldnoah; it's really baffling that writers or studios who try cool, original concepts or clever writing get shit on. It's like the entire anime fan-base is opposed to change or something. Yeah, critique the bad elements of each show, but to absolutely deem them bad makes scares me for the future of the anime industry if everyone stops trying these things because they're too financially risky -- "well, guys, I guess we have to go back to catering to otakus only."
In addition to my previous question, how does this apply to Aldnoah Zero? I'll leave Attack on Titan out of this, since thats a whole different can of worms.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
What do you mean by this?
"Ambitious" is a relative term to the industry as a whole. Specifically, in this case, it's ambitious in it's science-fiction endeavours -- every fancy gimmick they've pulled so far has held-up to scientific scrutiny -- and mixing a lot of these scientific elements in to how the plot unfolds. The story is a little ridiculous at times, but if you aren't held-up by convenience, everything is quite plausible.
Sadly, a lot of these elements make the dumb stuff in the show much more glaring.
Its ambitious because it uses a bit of hard sci-fi with its gimmicky fights...? Lets just take season 1 for example right now. The only gimmick I remember that's out of the ordinary of mecha anime was the one with the shield, that had to get video transmitted in from the outside transmitted back to the mech so it could see. Which in itself brought up a bunch of questions, but w/e. I don't think minor stuff like that makes Aldnoah Zero particularly ambitious. The other stuff we had were like, beam sabers and rocket punches. I mean we had Gunbuster back in the 80s use time dilation as a plot point. That is something that actually strikes me as ambitious, is actually important to the plot, something that no other anime out there even deals with, and it was almost 30 years ago.
Hmm I actually have the complete opposite opinion of Aldnoah and to an extent AoT. I feel they had the potential to try new things or get creative but the authors/writer/studio didn't want to take the risks associated with that. Aldnoah could have been a true sci-fi show grounded in social commentary about war and independence with real tragedy and cleaver but the writers instead took the safe option with their story, sticking to what is known to work. I don't think Aldnoah is a bad show, I just don't see anything new about it when it could have been so much more.
AoT I feel is even worse in this regard but it's not the topic of discussion.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
What do you mean by this?
"Ambitious" is a relative term to the industry as a whole. Specifically, in this case, it's ambitious in it's science-fiction endeavours -- every fancy gimmick they've pulled so far has held-up to scientific scrutiny -- and mixing a lot of these scientific elements in to how the plot unfolds. The story is a little ridiculous at times, but if you aren't held-up by convenience, everything is quite plausible.
Sadly, a lot of these elements make the dumb stuff in the show much more glaring.
Mixing sci-fi elements into the plot? Nihei's been doing that shit for years.
I'd actually argue that Aldnoah Zero is particularly bad at integrating sci-fi into its plot. What examples of good sci-fi ideas has it actually had so far? Shooting rocket punches to redirect them? Deflecting bullets with heat? Space wind? These are all largely inconsequential to the story. Meanwhile, the Aldnoah activation factor or whatever is currently being spread by plot convenience.
Plus these days, it seems like the only thing you need to do to make an anime with a vaguely sci-fi plot successful is to stick Urobuchi's name on it.
@ Sentenal -- as for the science-fiction stuff, there's a lot of elements, from the entropy-technology mech to the computer-versus-cyborg trajectory calculations, and of course the on-going mystery of what the fuck is up with the Aldnoah power-transferring -- yes, they've discussed theories on it in the actual story. There's nothing ground-breaking about the science-fiction elements or the story, but it's a fair bit more complex and difficult to execute than anything else I can think of currently airing. And on that note...
@ Numy -- yes, I agree. That's one of my major issues with Aldnoah: that the creators still don't feel secure enough to depart completely from catering to the otaku fan-base. I find this really sad, too, as part of the reason I bring this all up is the extreme opinions of the anime community; many people want the same pandering content they love, and if you don't include enough of it, the show is just shit. I'd controversially argue "case-in-point: SAO." SAO does a lot of really dumb, dumb shit, but gets away with it because it appeals to the lowest common denominator, crass fan-service and all.
Seriously, either people love or hate these kinds of shows. There isn't any in-between for them. If you get something that does the same old run-of-the-mill premise and doesn't create something good, that's where you get the "meh"s. It's really frustrating seeing great stuff that's trying to do more in the industry get absolutely trashed-on for it's flaws, while shows that just deliver "meh" are still bought-up or even praised, even if they don't knock it out of the park.
EDIT: I'd like to point-out that this beef largely hinges on that last paragraph; I have some major qualms with the anime community. As for Aldnoah itself, I stand by my statement: it isn't perfect, but it's still doing some cool stuff and keeps me tuning-in every week. It'll likely land a 3/5 or 4/5 if it keeps around this level of quality to the end -- good show, glaring flaws, may only appeal to those with interest in the premise.
On January 26 2015 02:49 Cedstick wrote: @ Sentenal -- as for the science-fiction stuff, there's a lot of elements, from the entropy-technology mech to the computer-versus-cyborg trajectory calculations, and of course the on-going mystery of what the fuck is up with the Aldnoah power-transferring -- yes, they've discussed theories on it in the actual story. There's nothing ground-breaking about the science-fiction elements or the story, but it's a fair bit more complex and difficult to execute than anything else I can think of currently airing. And on that note...
How is it any more complex or difficult to explain than, for example, stuff in G Reco? Or even if we back up a bit to when Season 1 was airing, Argevollen?
To be clear, I don't think that Aldnoah Zero is terrible. I've seen some pretty bad anime in my day, and Aldnoah Zero is somewhere inbetween good and Giniro no Olynsis. But ambitious, creative, or clever? No way.
On January 26 2015 02:49 Cedstick wrote: @ Sentenal -- as for the science-fiction stuff, there's a lot of elements, from the entropy-technology mech to the computer-versus-cyborg trajectory calculations, and of course the on-going mystery of what the fuck is up with the Aldnoah power-transferring -- yes, they've discussed theories on it in the actual story. There's nothing ground-breaking about the science-fiction elements or the story, but it's a fair bit more complex and difficult to execute than anything else I can think of currently airing. And on that note...
How is it any more complex or difficult to explain than, for example, stuff in G Reco? Or even if we back up a bit to when Season 1 was airing, Argevollen?
To be clear, I don't think that Aldnoah Zero is terrible. I've seen some pretty bad anime in my day, and Aldnoah Zero is somewhere inbetween good and Giniro no Olynsis. But ambitious, creative, or clever? No way.
As I said, relative! That (now second-to-last) paragraph about the extreme opinions really irks me. Not that studios themselves don't have flaws; we had a really cool initial premise with Aldnoah, for instance, from Mr Urobuchi himself, before he fucked-off after episode three, and it has shown. Thankfully he seems to have written core plot points for the studio to at least connect the dots.
On another note, Under the Drama. I was never very hyped for this myself, as WELP TEENAGERS WHO'DA THOUGHT, but it did at least seem like it could've been neat. Hopefully the backers aren't disappointed.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
Nah sao and aot are great. Aldnoah is ok. I like it for the most part, just hate fucking slaine. Sao and AoT suffer from the problem of becoming too mainstream and popular and the number 1 rule of anime otakus/hipsters is too hate on a show once it becomes too mainstream and popular.
Unfortunately I believe most "sci-fi" shows/stories these days tend to be more futuretech fantasy than real "sci-fi" or how sci-fi used to be. I blame Star Wars myself. I kind of wish there would be a new term for it.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
Nah sao and aot are great. Aldnoah is ok. I like it for the most part, just hate fucking slaine. Sao and AoT suffer from the problem of becoming too main stream and popular and the number 1 rule of anime otakus/hipsters is too hate on a show once it becomes too mainstream and popular.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or not. People love using the excuse of "circlejerk" or "people just love hating popular shows" to dismiss any flaws or complaints about what they like. I hope one day we'd move past that and be able to acknowledge faults in something in enjoyed since enjoyment not being directly linked to quality is not a new concept. I guess people just can't handle the fact that they can enjoy something that's shit lol.
On January 26 2015 03:21 Numy wrote: Unfortunately I believe most "sci-fi" shows/stories these days tend to be more futuretech fantasy than real "sci-fi" or how sci-fi used to be. I blame Star Wars myself. I kind of wish there would be a new term for it.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
Nah sao and aot are great. Aldnoah is ok. I like it for the most part, just hate fucking slaine. Sao and AoT suffer from the problem of becoming too main stream and popular and the number 1 rule of anime otakus/hipsters is too hate on a show once it becomes too mainstream and popular.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or not. People love using the excuse of "circlejerk" or "people just love hating popular shows" to dismiss any flaws or complaints about what they like. I hope one day we'd move past that and be able to acknowledge faults in something in enjoyed since enjoyment not being directly linked to quality is not a new concept. I guess people just can't handle the fact that they can enjoy something that's shit lol.
No man, it's true. Been around anime enough to know the otaku/hipster mindset. However, to be fair it's not just limited to anime. Just read the walking dead thread while it's airing and you wonder why those people still watch it if they hate it so much. Things get built up so people can tear them down later.
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
Nah sao and aot are great. Aldnoah is ok. I like it for the most part, just hate fucking slaine. Sao and AoT suffer from the problem of becoming too mainstream and popular and the number 1 rule of anime otakus/hipsters is too hate on a show once it becomes too mainstream and popular.
i don't think that applies to anime tbh
given that stuff like gintama/FMA:B are still at the top
Ah yes, the good old "you only dislike it because it's popular!"
I guess FMA:B, Death note and various other super well recieved series are all just niche as fuck. Because i mean if they ever became mainstream people would have to dislike them for this logic to hold true.
On January 26 2015 03:21 Numy wrote: Unfortunately I believe most "sci-fi" shows/stories these days tend to be more futuretech fantasy than real "sci-fi" or how sci-fi used to be. I blame Star Wars myself. I kind of wish there would be a new term for it.
Sinon's Ass was particularly good indeed Frolo
On January 26 2015 03:21 Canucklehead wrote:
On January 26 2015 01:17 Numy wrote:
On January 26 2015 00:52 Cedstick wrote: I disagree. Whereas SAO is, for the most part, just dumb and has a lot of creepy/fan-servicey writing, Aldnoah tries a lot of ambitious stuff and falls flat on some of it. Also, shitty minor characters. I think Aldnoah is legitimately good in many ways, which are polarized by it's flaws.
People love SAO much like AoT and refuse to believe it's bad. Aldnoah is pretty bad itself. So idk why you trying to argue, sure one might be objectively worse than the other but that doesn't really mean much.
Nah sao and aot are great. Aldnoah is ok. I like it for the most part, just hate fucking slaine. Sao and AoT suffer from the problem of becoming too main stream and popular and the number 1 rule of anime otakus/hipsters is too hate on a show once it becomes too mainstream and popular.
I'm not sure if you are trolling or not. People love using the excuse of "circlejerk" or "people just love hating popular shows" to dismiss any flaws or complaints about what they like. I hope one day we'd move past that and be able to acknowledge faults in something in enjoyed since enjoyment not being directly linked to quality is not a new concept. I guess people just can't handle the fact that they can enjoy something that's shit lol.
No man, it's true. Been around anime enough to know the otaku/hipster mindset. However, to be fair it's not just limited to anime. Just read the walking dead thread while it's airing and you wonder why those people still watch it if they hate it so much. Things get built up so people can tear them down later.
While I'm not denying that's a thing I'm specifically saying that using that idea to dismiss any discussion or complaints about shows is wrong. SAO has a lot of faults. Saying how the "hate" it gets is purely due to it being mainstream completely ignores all the faults it has. It gets a lot of hate because of these faults first and foremost. If it wasn't mainstream it wouldn't suddenly be cared of these things, it would just mean that the general public couldn't see past them to find enjoyment in it.
Personally I believe the whole "hate what's popular" thing isn't really as common as people believe. It's merely a defensive mechanism to avoid talking about what is wrong with something they like. There will always be people that dislike something, being mainstream just means there will be more of both individuals that like and dislike. I don't even understand why one has to defend a show/story they like. If you enjoyed it then you enjoyed it. I'm loving the shit out of Cross Ange these last 2 seasons but hell I'm not going to pretend it is without fault just because I find it enjoyable. We are adults(I think?) here so we should be mature enough to separate the two issues.
A lot of anime/manga start off with good a good premise, its just that sadly most creators can't competently see that premise realized through an entire series. It is also perfectly acceptable to like something that is considered bad. Its why the whole concept of "guilty pleasure" exists and everyone has their pleasures.
I like SAO, it entertained me a fair amount. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of horribly done plot arcs or poorly written character developments that cause you to roll your eyes.
On January 26 2015 03:37 Slaughter wrote: A lot of anime/manga start off with good a good premise, its just that sadly most creators can't competently see that premise realized through an entire series. It is also perfectly acceptable to like something that is considered bad. Its why the whole concept of "guilty pleasure" exists and everyone has their pleasures.
I like SAO, it entertained me a fair amount. Doesn't mean it doesn't have a lot of horribly done plot arcs or poorly written character developments that cause you to roll your eyes.
a lot of that stuff is because of either the writer needs a paycheck so it drags on forever like bleach or the animators have a tight budget to work with and can't pace the show correctly
EPT
