On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love to people that already know (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
On December 19 2017 13:54 LegalLord wrote: Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
Well, rather sadly, our geek community is easily polarized and has in the past done plenty of things like reviewing bombing stuff on Steam.
Also, I would imagine that there's quite a bit of selection bias going on with the user reviews, because only those who feel especially strongly about the movie will bother to leave a review.
Rogue one and TFA scored 87-88 so clearly your last theory is wrong.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the majority of people ACTUALLY DISLIKED the last jedi? If this thread is anything to go by, that seems pretty accurate.
In pretty much all of my social circles and gamer chats, the majority disliked the film, stands to reason that it's RT score is low then.
No need to jump to conclusions about "review bombing".
It is more than a little ironic that for someone accusing me of jumping to conclusions, you failed to notice that I only pointed out that our community has in the past review bombed on Steam. I stop short of saying that TLJ is being reviewed bomb because I quite honestly have no idea if that is happening.
Moreover, seeing as the rotten tomato user score is at 56% or so, I think that if you are going to put any authority in the rotten tomato ranking, the majority of people actually liked TLJ. I hope we can both agree that majority is a number above 50%?
My point though is really that any open review system on the internet is not really representative of anything since it is not an accurate way of collecting data. Sure it's a fair point to note that the score is much lower than TFA or RO, but then if you really want to do that comparison, RO only got about 80k reviews while TLJ is now above 100 thousand just 3 days after release. Realistically speaking the ease at which anyone can go put up a review simply means that the data is going to be pretty unreliable - a person could literally feel angry that his fan fiction about Finn marrying Poe did not happen, and left a 1 star review which then pulls down the score.
As for your social circles and chats, that's just anecdotal. I can easily point out that in my case everyone around me who loves star wars also loves TLJ. Anecdotal evidence is about as useful as midicholrines... and sand.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
You're talking about SPECIFIC events with specific characters in the movie. Your argument would be akin to saying that Starkiller Base isn't the same plot point as the Death Star because the Death Star was a space station and Starkiller base is a planet, or that in the Death Star they blew it up with a Proton Torpedo and Starkiller base was blown up with Detonators. The general purpose of both in the story are exactly the same.
just not by a best friend (since no character is that well developed in this movie in the first place) and it does happen from a character of questionable morals that is met only a short time before.
There are actually people deciaring their love for each other + Show Spoiler +
Rose and Finn
so that right there is a perfect parallel, thanks.
There might not be people getting hands lopped off, but: Rey + Show Spoiler +
DOES lose her light saber the same way Luke does in a showdown with the bad guy. Bonus points for it being the EXACT SAME LIGHT SABER
There are actually people being frozen! Funnily enough + Show Spoiler +
Leia in space before she flies back to the ship
And you're also forgetting all of the other point for point parallels stolen from the other movies.
Rey goes to find Luke on a distant remote world only to be turned away at first, and then leaves before she receives significant training but not before encountering the area that is strong with Dark Side of the Force and being forced to confront images of herself
The battle on a white world that involves an overpowering force of AT-AT walkers and a small Rebel force consisting mostly of outmatched and obsolete speeders
A throne room scene copied nearly identically from Return of the Jedi to serve as the confrontation with the Elder bad guy, and where the younger bad guy destroys him
Now that last scene despite being the most egregious example of copy/pasta is the only one that provides any REAL deviation because of when it happens and the motivations involved.
The rest of the movie follows the entire plot of Empire from start to end. (Think broadly about where the movie starts, what happens in the middle and where it ends) Hint: + Show Spoiler +
everyone escapes safely aboard the Millenium Falcon to fight another day except for one main character who gets left with an uncertain ending
Meaning that going into Episode 9 there is only one REAL plot worth attention that has anything resembling originality. Only I could talk for days about how poorly written, and developed this plot is just on the merits of what's been shown in the last two movies.
So no, I'm not unsure or misinformed of what I am talking about. I understand the plots of these 5 movies VERY well, and I do enough story writing myself to know a rehashed story with a different paint job when I see one.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
I know you're coming from a good place, but sorry I really don't think that the following points are part of a "better scenario":
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
[This is basically fanfiction quality romance]
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo)
[Introducing Mara Jade is not going to make the story simple. In fact it's going to open up a huge barrel of questions - such as needing to explain who Mara Jade is, and not to mention why on earth Luke and Mara agreed to dump their baby daughter on Jakku]
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
While I am pretty sure the above is enough to deal with what you're trying to argue. I do have a really minor quibble:
A throne room scene copied nearly identically from Return of the Jedi to serve as the confrontation with the Elder bad guy, and where the younger bad guy destroys him
is really skewed, since you are ignoring the really important issue of motivation since + Show Spoiler +
the younger bad guy is killing the elder bad guy to take over him, and not to save the good guy or redeem himself
. To me, this is a great example of how you are taking scenes, completely ignoring important elements that don't suit your argument, and then just insisting that TLJ is derivative.
I imagine you do enough story writing to understand the important of motive in a scene.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
I'm responding to your argument on its own standards. You made the claim that they are literally the same plot points, and I am showing you that they are not. I don't really think I am cherry picking since this is your argument right? Even now you are saying that "this movie is just like Empire".
Yeah, I think that Han and Kenobi basically filled the same roles in ANH and TFA - I do think that TFA was a lot more derivative. We are discussing TLJ though.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
I'm responding to your argument on its own standards. You made the claim that they are literally the same plot points, and I am showing you that they are not. I don't really think I am cherry picking since this is your argument right? Even now you are saying that "this movie is just like Empire".
Yeah, I think that Han and Kenobi basically filled the same roles in ANH and TFA - I do think that TFA was a lot more derivative. We are discussing TLJ though.
Ok and what is your counter to everything I've said about TLJ? Do you deny that the two movies have plots as similar as Force Awakens which to use YOUR words are derivative of one another?
Better question, do you think that it's a good or a bad thing that movies bad under the same franchise tag ARE derivative of each other?
If you want to argue a point that counters mine, feel free to use whatever language you want to use, it doesn't change anything.
This movie isn't an original story, which makes all of the complaints other people have about it even more damning. I could write pages upon pages about just how bad the story that's actually being told is, (even going back to Force Awakens) but it's all the worse when it's just a retelling of an already existing story that people already love.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
I'm responding to your argument on its own standards. You made the claim that they are literally the same plot points, and I am showing you that they are not. I don't really think I am cherry picking since this is your argument right? Even now you are saying that "this movie is just like Empire".
Yeah, I think that Han and Kenobi basically filled the same roles in ANH and TFA - I do think that TFA was a lot more derivative. We are discussing TLJ though.
Ok and what is your counter to everything I've said about TLJ? Do you deny that the two movies have plots as similar as Force Awakens which to use YOUR words are derivative of one another?
Better question, do you think that it's a good or a bad thing that movies bad under the same franchise tag ARE derivative of each other?
If you want to argue a point that counters mine, feel free to use whatever language you want to use, it doesn't change anything.
This movie isn't an original story, which makes all of the complaints other people have about it even more damning. I could write pages upon pages about just how bad the story that's actually being told is, (even going back to Force Awakens) but it's all the worse when it's just a retelling of an already existing story that people already love.
I have actually pointed out the new and significant stuff which TLJ does in an earlier post. I'm sorry but you will have to understand my reluctance in repeating myself. I think you could at least extend the courtesy of reading what I mentioned back there, and responding to those points.
You cherry picked specific moments such as the "I love you" scene in order to justify why the movies were different, and then refuted my obviously sarcastic claim that the two were the same as though that somehow strengthens your argument.
Since you don't want to actually acknowledge any of the tangible reasons why the plots of the two movies are the same besides just nitpicking details there's no point in trying to continue this conversation with you.
I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
On December 19 2017 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: LOL. OK.
You cherry picked specific moments such as the "I love you" scene in order to justify why the movies were different, and then refuted my obviously sarcastic claim that the two were the same as though that somehow strengthens your argument.
Since you don't want to actually acknowledge any of the tangible reasons why the plots of the two movies are the same besides just nitpicking details there's no point in trying to continue this conversation with you.
I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
Could you please go back to my comment which you originally responded to? Can you also stop throwing around the accusation of cherry picking while at the same time ignoring my earlier points.
Plus can you calm down. I am sure we can have a civilized discussion. I am finding it very difficult to differentiate between what is "obviously sarcastic" because every single line in your post seems to be baiting for a response from me.
Fundamentally I think that any critique about TLJ being derivative about Empire needs to first point out what exactly was Empire about.
Otherwise everything just gets reduce to this sort of pointless superficial comparisons like "there was a white planet!" (which well begs the question of whether Starkiller base, having snow, was derivative of Hoth) - and even at that level, the comparison really doesn't hold up since for every similarity there are plenty of other differences too.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
I know you're coming from a good place, but sorry I really don't think that the following points are part of a "better scenario":
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
[This is basically fanfiction quality romance]
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo)
[Introducing Mara Jade is not going to make the story simple. In fact it's going to open up a huge barrel of questions - such as needing to explain who Mara Jade is, and not to mention why on earth Luke and Mara agreed to dump their baby daughter on Jakku]
Not saying i would have preferred this version, but the introducing of Mara Jade would have been the way i would have taken it, you could quite easily have done that and then made more of a connection based movie between Rey and Luke, thus giving the ultimate heartache of Luke (her father) dying 3/4 of the way through the film then comes Rey "tempted by the darkside" because of huge rage in her life. I bet alot of Star Wars nerds would have been happy if the extended universe lore was being used and Mara Jade existed! I for one would have preferred a story with a better connection between Luke & Rey and Luke + Show Spoiler +
dying properly, not just a cliche kindy at peace with the world after not even wining a battle vs Kylo Ren or changing anyone
Still there is episode 9, another director (yes same as episode 7 but still a new director) to pick up and we saw Rian take it in a complete opposite direction, what is the bet we get episode 7.5 and a completely other direction again and confusing people again.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
I know you're coming from a good place, but sorry I really don't think that the following points are part of a "better scenario":
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
[This is basically fanfiction quality romance]
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo)
[Introducing Mara Jade is not going to make the story simple. In fact it's going to open up a huge barrel of questions - such as needing to explain who Mara Jade is, and not to mention why on earth Luke and Mara agreed to dump their baby daughter on Jakku]
Not saying i would have preferred this version, but the introducing of Mara Jade would have been the way i would have taken it, you could quite easily have done that and then made more of a connection based movie between Rey and Luke, thus giving the ultimate heartache of Luke (her father) dying 3/4 of the way through the film then comes Rey "tempted by the darkside" because of huge rage in her life. I bet alot of Star Wars nerds would have been happy if the extended universe lore was being used and Mara Jade existed! I for one would have preferred a story with a better connection between Luke & Rey and Luke + Show Spoiler +
dying properly, not just a cliche kindy at peace with the world after not even wining a battle vs Kylo Ren or changing anyone
Still there is episode 9, another director (yes same as episode 7 but still a new director) to pick up and we saw Rian take it in a complete opposite direction, what is the bet we get episode 7.5 and a completely other direction again and confusing people again.
Well I really hope that the direction doesn't change again. Episode 8 is what it is, and I think that Abrams has enough professional respect to try and work within what 8 has already done. Rian did pull the carpet for a few things, but overall he also still adhered to what was sent in place in TFA.
I personally wouldn't have minded Mara Jade and the EU too, but the problem with the EU is that fans are split on that too - when TFA came out there were plenty of people going "Rey is another skywalker? why is the whole galaxy only Skywalkers and Solos". Heck, there are people in this thread right now throwing up a fuss that TLJ is Empire in another coat of paint - introducing Mara Jade for this purpose will just make that crowd unhappy (again).
Which is true, but Ben Solo is hardly original anyway is he, he is a bad guy because he is extremely confused and if Snoke was still alive you could have bet on it ending exactly the way it did in ESB xD
But anyway, i just didn't like character development in 8 and couldn't connect with Rey at all due to imo very sub par acting and story for her. I mean JJ can take her to new heights in 9 and i anticipate he will as the few clips in episode 7 with her made me like her character alot. She could also still be confirmed as a skywalker which would be hilarious but i too hope she isn't.
To add i am not looking forward to Rian's new triology if this is what he came up with after following episode 7 xD Also i might be too harsh on Rian, it might justs be Disney who are forcing the similarities between the old movies and the sub par scripts.
On December 19 2017 18:49 Pandemona wrote: Which is true, but Ben Solo is hardly original anyway is he, he is a bad guy because he is extremely confused and if Snoke was still alive you could have bet on it ending exactly the way it did in ESB xD
But anyway, i just didn't like character development in 8 and couldn't connect with Rey at all due to imo very sub par acting and story for her. I mean JJ can take her to new heights in 9 and i anticipate he will as the few clips in episode 7 with her made me like her character alot. She could also still be confirmed as a skywalker which would be hilarious but i too hope she isn't.
To add i am not looking forward to Rian's new triology if this is what he came up with after following episode 7 xD Also i might be too harsh on Rian, it might justs be Disney who are forcing the similarities between the old movies and the sub par scripts.
I think that Kylo got quite a bit of a good character development in 8. His motives are now more complex (plus he is his own agent now and still willingly goes on, he's not that confused anymore), and it's not just "I want to be eeeeevil" which he was in TFA. Unfortunately it was sort of at the expense of Rey, because she is still a bit flat as a character.
Rain might actually better off doing something completely on his own, since TLJ definitely had a very unique spin on the franchise. In this way, I don't quite agree that there are similarities being forced between the old movies. I think Rain took TLJ, and Star Wars in a new direction with his movie, and while I can understand that some people might not like the new direction, I really don't think that there are forced similarities since fundamentally a new direction is being taken.
On December 19 2017 17:17 Manit0u wrote: No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
Now turn your rough scenario into a 90-120 page screenplay. Note that I'm not saying you're not allowed to criticize the movie if you can't write screenplays, but the writers are getting paid to do exactly that, and it's a difficult job.
On December 19 2017 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
The components look the same to you, so what was the reason for that? Is it on purpose? Was it an accident? What was Rian Johnson trying to achieve, if anything?
e:
Where's the comparison of the themes of the movies, and the motives of the characters? You know... the substantive stuff that matters.
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ That's pretty much what I'm trying to get at.
On December 19 2017 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
The components look the same to you, so what was the reason for that? Is it on purpose? Was it an accident? What was Rian Johnson trying to achieve, if anything?
Loathed as I am to comment while Vindicare605 isn't around, and much as I hate analogies -
I think that comparing components in a car really misses the point, because obviously, all cars are going to have the same basic components.
You are also going to miss the point that you are comparing a race car and the sort of car that your aunt uses to buy groceries simply because both have an engine.
Which is why I cannot quite agree with the comparisons being drawn - there was a duel in a throne room, there was a white planet with ATATs, there was a chase because someone could not jump to light speed, there was some training under a mentor on a remote location.
Where's the comparison of the themes of the movies, and the motives of the characters? You know... the substantive stuff that matters.
EPT
