Rian Johnson - Director Daisy Ridley - Rey Mark Hamill - Luke Skywalker Carrie Fisher - Princess Leia John Boyega - Finn Adam Driver - Kylo Ren Tom Hardy - (Rumored)
Poll: Which Do You Think Is Best
Star Wars - The Force Awakens (43)
62%
Star Wars - The Last Jedi (26)
38%
69 total votes
Your vote: Which Do You Think Is Best
(Vote): Star Wars - The Force Awakens (Vote): Star Wars - The Last Jedi
Looking forward to seeing what they will do with this. Not sure what level of hype I intend to keep, but I definitely do hope to see this movie when it comes out.
And I thought this would be a good thing to post here.
It's really weird to me that people are so anti star wars atm. Like i get it. Episode 7 was very close to episode 4 in terms of reaching certain plot points. The funny thing is that while people complain about that, they also complain about the new "villain" because he isn't menacing enough. So what do you wants? Another darth vader which would be a complaint about similarity, or something "new" by having a villain who is conflicted, rather new to the force as well, etc (which then is new) Ofc execution of these aspects matters a lot, but it was fairly well done i think. People really just don't like adam drivers looks i guess :/
The first movie was a setup to this one, we now have our characters established and now it's time to let them have their own adventure. Luke being unsure about the jedi makes for a nice thematic topic. Like what does he mean when he says "it's so much bigger" ? There is more to it than dark/light! I think getting actually new content is what people wanted? It's funny that i defend the new movies, i am not even a big star wars fan to begin with and think the OT is overrated and viewed with nostalgia goggles. So going by the teaser, the movie will look fantastic and have a theme which wasn't really done before and might actually add nuance to the franchise (i am only talking official movies here btw, that's the stuff most people actually know and mean when they talk about star wars). A bit excited about it tbh, because it might finally show us more about the universe and force (and give it more depth), something which should have been done in the other episodes already tbh.
I think OT is not one smidge overrated. I could watch them another 20 times through each, probably will.
But I don't think they need to be put on a pedestal relative to Ep 7. 7 was great in its own way - partially derivative, but it's a sequel that is built upon the past so that should not be too much of a surprise. Hell, my biggest gripes with it are of the awkward character interactions variety - and god knows the OT had plenty of those as well.
It suffered from being a victim of unattainable expectations - we were waiting for this movie for decades and we had plenty of presuppositions as to how it would look. And there was zero chance of it satisfying them. Once you see it for what it actually is, it's a pretty great movie. Better than R1 - which on the other hand well surpassed its hype but wasn't that great - it was merely good. I could have been on the R1>E7 hype train until I saw E7 again and that basically erased all doubt.
Well overrated because imo it has very clear weaknesses/faults as well. For example the acting is rather bad, there are cheesy moments in it which are in direct contrast to the rather serious story, etc. I mean i think the OT is fun, i can watch it every year as well but i don't think these movies are truly masterpieces or anywhere near it and most hardcore star wars fans seem to think just that (and yes i get that back in the 70s it was something "new" ; well at least all the aspects mixed together). So when i use "overrated" it doesn't mean i am on the other side of the spectrum "they suck!!", not at all.
My main gripe with E7 is that in the middle parts of the movie it's just too fast, or rather as soon as Rey and Funn meet. We could have used a few scenes which give us a better perspective of time passing, like i remember having no idea of the timespan the movie covers directly after watching it. Also it could have been better developed WHY Rey seems to be as strong as she is with the force. Like if the is simply a natural talent, make it a bit more clear, a little bit more struggle to control it, etc. Other than that i think it gave us reasonably interesting characters and a situation the other two movies can expand on.
So yeah i hope that episode 8 and 9 expand the universe and the idea of the force (dark/light/ "so much bigger!") substantially. For all the possibilites the universe has it was always a bit too focused on the same things over and over again. Get some ned ideas in there, get more nuance into it than good vs evil. I think episode 8 will do that and that's imo great!
Man, you can't get worse at cheesy moments than setting up your new main villain, which you are despicting as a tortured conflicted soul, and then use him as a comical relief gag. Even tho i chuckled, it was as anticlimatic as it can get. Don't get me wrong, I liked the TFA, but many times either Disney or JJ (or both) played the episode VII too safe, it had too much action for a trilogy starter movie in an attempt to make it a watchable stand alone movie while still being part of a trilogy, and in doing so it didn't manage to be a good stand alone movie.
It's like doing the fellowship of the ring, but removing a good chunk of the beginning on hobbiton and the travel to Rivendel just for action's scenes sake, speeding or neglecting the storytelling process just for the kicks. I had to remove Star's killer existence out of my headcanon. In my eyes, the First order just successfully invaded the republic's primary systems at the core and defeated its fleet in battle, no, no this silly star killer and all republic planets being in the same solar system when we are talking about a freaking galaxy. If you want to see the super weapon done right, watch rogue one.
And don't get me started about how much of a waste of everybody's time the fighting scene on Han's Freighter is.
I know the comparison isn't fair, because OT is a finished trilogy, and maybe the next movies allow it to be a better movie overall, but it's impossible to rank it better than a new hope even as a stand alone. Is it bad ? No, but it's not the best.
I think all your complaints are legit tbh. They shouldn't have used Kylo for any humor. The monster stuff on han's freighter should have been cut and it would have given us time to let other scenes be a bit longer/breathe more.
At the same time i think the movie did a good job to create some tension where the OT imo always failed. The stormtroopers were a bad joke in the OT and while they are still not "realisticically" depicted necessarily, at least we see them actually do things here. Also the lightsaber fights were just horribly bad in the OT, not from a storytelling perspective but the fights itself were meh. Same with acting, mark hamill was a very weak actor in his youth at least. Does this mean i think episode 7 is better than the OT? Nah not at all, i think it does some things better, others worse. Overall it probably feels a bit worse mainly due to it being too fast paced.
Though if the writing in episode 8 is better and the rest stays at the same lvl as episode 7 i think it has the potential to be the best movie yet. Especially if it actually adds nuance to the story (light/dark, etc) I am fairly optimistic atm, simply because of the teased theme of "the last jedi" and the director and the general rumors about the movie being fairly different from everything else we have seen so far (ofc that could be pr talk though)
I honestly thought Kylo Ren was a pretty cool character. Not in the "unadulterated badass" kind but more of a "villain protagonist" kind of character. He is the least of my problems.
Some character interactions seemed forced which is my problem. Finn and Rey didn't really have very good ones. Finn had great ones with others - BB8, Poe, Han, etc. - but the one was pretty bad. Rey had a few good ones as well, including the one with Kylo Ren. Leia and Chewbacca was also another awkward one.
But you know, the OT had plenty of those "forced" moments too. Some of those characters were barely memorable for their role within the movie despite getting enough screen time to think they should matter.
Being fast-paced seems like a mirror of Ep 4, though arguably not as well done. Ep 4 just went from scene to scene quite quickly like a magical adventure. The other two felt stylistically different.
You can’t make a better Darth Vader. He is one of the most iconic villains of all time. Kylo Ren can be seen a meta commentary on that specific problem. The one nice part about Ren is that he has a similar dynamic with the rest of the Imperials/New Order, which is full of distrust. The CGI Stoke was a less than perfect choice, better than Devil Alien with a double lightsaber.
On April 18 2017 09:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: My main gripe with E7 is that in the middle parts of the movie it's just too fast, or rather as soon as Rey and Funn meet. We could have used a few scenes which give us a better perspective of time passing, like i remember having no idea of the timespan the movie covers directly after watching it. Also it could have been better developed WHY Rey seems to be as strong as she is with the force. Like if the is simply a natural talent, make it a bit more clear, a little bit more struggle to control it, etc. Other than that i think it gave us reasonably interesting characters and a situation the other two movies can expand on.
My main issue with Rey isn't her strength in the force, and any attempt to explain that would inevitably dredge up their horrible midichlorians crap. But in the OT (and PT) they hammered it in that sheer strength doesn't really get you anywhere (except great piloting skills/reflexes): ep 4 Luke couldn't do much of anything with the force and spent most of ep 5 on Dagobah learning how to use it. Anakin spent the entire time between ep 1 and 2 in training, while Rey instantly kicked ass.
On April 18 2017 22:33 Kipsate wrote: still mad that Rey doesn't fight with a double lightsaber, she had a staff for god sakes!
(granted its probably so the fight scenes don't look stupid as well)
Well, it would also be pretty egregious power-up wise because handling a staff doesn't prepare you for having a two-bladed lasersword that you can't brace against your leg or arm without losing an appendage.
I would be sort of bummed if they skipped over the building the lightsaber part for the second time. Even if it is just something they use as a backdrop for dialog.
On April 18 2017 09:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: My main gripe with E7 is that in the middle parts of the movie it's just too fast, or rather as soon as Rey and Funn meet. We could have used a few scenes which give us a better perspective of time passing, like i remember having no idea of the timespan the movie covers directly after watching it. Also it could have been better developed WHY Rey seems to be as strong as she is with the force. Like if the is simply a natural talent, make it a bit more clear, a little bit more struggle to control it, etc. Other than that i think it gave us reasonably interesting characters and a situation the other two movies can expand on.
My main issue with Rey isn't her strength in the force, and any attempt to explain that would inevitably dredge up their horrible midichlorians crap. But in the OT (and PT) they hammered it in that sheer strength doesn't really get you anywhere (except great piloting skills/reflexes): ep 4 Luke couldn't do much of anything with the force and spent most of ep 5 on Dagobah learning how to use it. Anakin spent the entire time between ep 1 and 2 in training, while Rey instantly kicked ass.
Eh, she was kinda terrible with the lightsaber and Ren wasn’t trying to kill her. Her using the force at the end is the time when she gains the advantage and there is a real argument to be made that the Force won the fight for her.
It should be a lesson to us all: Don’t fight the newly awakened force user right after killing your father in cold blood. It isn’t a good mental state to be leaning into the dark side.
On April 18 2017 22:52 Mafe wrote: Trailer was a bit of a letdown for me. But as I will watch it anyway, I guess the trailer was never meant for people like me.
Heh, I just commented that to a friend. The Battlefront II trailer actually impressed me more. But pretty hyped for both
It wasn't a trailer, it was a teaser. Just to give you a little bit of footage without spoiling anything storywise. Well execpt for the theme they kinda "spoiled" or TEASED at
On April 18 2017 21:57 Plansix wrote: You can’t make a better Darth Vader. He is one of the most iconic villains of all time. Kylo Ren can be seen a meta commentary on that specific problem. The one nice part about Ren is that he has a similar dynamic with the rest of the Imperials/New Order, which is full of distrust. The CGI Stoke was a less than perfect choice, better than Devil Alien with a double lightsaber.
I might get burn alive here but I never understood what was so great about darth vader. Yes he got a nice look and all but the guy is a non stop disapointment.
Outside of his "feelling" skills that help the empire to move the plot along at the start of empire, he fail in all of his task, most of them being rather easy. Getting the death star plan on the ship, crushing the rebelion on Hott, killing an unexperience Luke in duel, getting Leya to talk...All of those should have been an easy one, yet everytime the rebellion win just under his nose.
For me Vador was always that guy unable to kill a fly with a rocket luncher everyone say he is awesome and super scary but the only time we see that is when he is with other empire member against the rebelion he seems to be totally powerless. If he would have been a normal officer it seems like he would have been a shitty one.
But I do have a problem with action movie vilain in general so don't take this to hard.
On April 18 2017 21:57 Plansix wrote: You can’t make a better Darth Vader. He is one of the most iconic villains of all time. Kylo Ren can be seen a meta commentary on that specific problem. The one nice part about Ren is that he has a similar dynamic with the rest of the Imperials/New Order, which is full of distrust. The CGI Stoke was a less than perfect choice, better than Devil Alien with a double lightsaber.
I might get burn alive here but I never understood what was so great about darth vader. Yes he got a nice look and all but the guy is a non stop disapointment.
Outside of his "feelling" skills that help the empire to move the plot along at the start of empire, he fail in all of his task, most of them being rather easy. Getting the death star plan on the ship, crushing the rebelion on Hott, killing an unexperience Luke in duel, getting Leya to talk...All of those should have been an easy one, yet everytime the rebellion win just under his nose.
For me Vador was always that guy unable to kill a fly with a rocket luncher everyone say he is awesome and super scary but the only time we see that is when he is with other empire member against the rebelion he seems to be totally powerless. If he would have been a normal officer it seems like he would have been a shitty one.
But I do have a problem with action movie vilain in general so don't take this to hard.
I think it's mostly the atmosphere when he interacts with other generals/officers/soldiers. He force chokes them, everybody is intimidated by his sheer presence and in general Vader also is pretty articulate when he talks. The music, aesthetics, etc obviously help a ton. But you are right, if we just look at his feats it's pretty much one failure after the other and it's weird that people overlook this.
It will be interesting to see what people will say about story details of episode 8 when it actually is different from the formula we all know. I think no matter what they did with it, people will be angry
Star Wars is pulp action with sci-fi gloss over the top. Much like Indian Jones, the villains being hyper skills and capable gets in teh way of fun action scenes where our hero fights a tank while a Nazi screams in German as the music swells.
It could and should be more than that though, which is exactly what i think will happen. No it won't every be extremely deep, but it surely will try to evolve. Hopefully.
It is hard to go beyond that without losing the roots of the story. Star Wars is basically about human heroes and villains. Only two of them with extra human powers and abilities that had limits. I think they can make the New Order seems more menacing and skilled, but it needs to be balanced by keeping the heroes human and fun. We still need scenes like when Han charges the Storm Troopers in New Hope. That thing still makes me smile.
The scene with the electro-baton trooper and Finn gave me hope for the future. That scene and the one with the flame thrower made storm troopers seem skills and scary without making them seem unstoppable.
Oh yeah for sure, i don't necessarily want some super gritty/dark star wars. At least not for the main episodes. Just a little bit here and there to actually create tension and make us question if the heroes can actually do it. Also what is really important imo is to expand the mythos and universe now. Make it a bit more nuanced. Things like that, we are in a time where simple good vs evil isn't really that exciting anymore.
Good vs evil is exciting with good writing and characters. Vader would have been a one note sci-fi villain if he wasn’t Lukes father and a fallen hero. That dynamic and nuance made Star Wars was it is. It called into question all of Vaders actions and let people back fill an entire story behind Vader that never existed. I have no doubt the next movie will try to do more with those themes than TFA did.
I mean at the end of the day you are right. You can make anything work if you are skilled enough. Though just looking at our current time and tv shows like breaking bad, game of thrones, westworld, etc writers seem to be more and more willing to create more and more three dimensional characters which have their own flaws. A villain can and should have more motivation than simply being evil and darth vader actually already fits that. But it can be developed even further, showing that not everybody fighting for the "bad guys" is necessarily simply evil. Showing that the "good guys" also do questionable things. Give people new moral questions/dynamics which go beyond sith who want to control the universe vs jedi who wanna protect it. Everything i have read so far points towards that approach and i am excited, i wonder if people are actually ready for it though, which they should be after calling episode 7 too similar to the OT
Teaser trailers rarely reveal anything particularly good about the movie, honestly. The E7 one was pretty pathetic IMO, compared to the actual release, with the exception of the "George Lucas Special Edition" parody which was genuinely humorous. I wouldn't judge a movie by its teaser - I only watch them because impatience is a bitch.
On April 19 2017 02:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: Oh yeah for sure, i don't necessarily want some super gritty/dark star wars. At least not for the main episodes. Just a little bit here and there to actually create tension and make us question if the heroes can actually do it. Also what is really important imo is to expand the mythos and universe now. Make it a bit more nuanced. Things like that, we are in a time where simple good vs evil isn't really that exciting anymore.
Empire Strikes Back had that already. Of course, it being #2 in a trilogy meant everybody knew that there was a finale coming in which Good could triumph again, but that movie ended with:
1. Lando Calrissian betraying his friends (and somewhat redeeming himself, but not before the major betrayal) 2. Han Solo being turned into a slab of concrete and taken away by Boba Fett. 3. Luke having his hand chopped off by Darth Vader, who also revealed he was his daddy.
The rebellion had been chased off Hoth, lost 2 of its main protagonists and looked kinda fucked. The very last scene was hopeful again, but the overall tone of the movie is one of the good guys getting their collective butts kicked in the grand scale of things. Albeit, in a fun and adventurous kind of way.
It could also be seen as a test of endurance in the face of overwhelming opposition. There was a string of nominal defeat after defeat, and yet nothing was fatal. The rebels managed to escape an overwhelming offensive power on Hoth, when they should have been destroyed. Luke lost his hand but kept his life and got away. Solo was somewhere where they could rescue him. It's actually a very good way to end a second installment - but I'm not sure how "dark" that really is.
On April 18 2017 21:57 Plansix wrote: You can’t make a better Darth Vader. He is one of the most iconic villains of all time. Kylo Ren can be seen a meta commentary on that specific problem. The one nice part about Ren is that he has a similar dynamic with the rest of the Imperials/New Order, which is full of distrust. The CGI Stoke was a less than perfect choice, better than Devil Alien with a double lightsaber.
I might get burn alive here but I never understood what was so great about darth vader. Yes he got a nice look and all but the guy is a non stop disapointment.
Outside of his "feelling" skills that help the empire to move the plot along at the start of empire, he fail in all of his task, most of them being rather easy. Getting the death star plan on the ship, crushing the rebelion on Hott, killing an unexperience Luke in duel, getting Leya to talk...All of those should have been an easy one, yet everytime the rebellion win just under his nose.
For me Vador was always that guy unable to kill a fly with a rocket luncher everyone say he is awesome and super scary but the only time we see that is when he is with other empire member against the rebelion he seems to be totally powerless. If he would have been a normal officer it seems like he would have been a shitty one.
But I do have a problem with action movie vilain in general so don't take this to hard.
I think it's mostly the atmosphere when he interacts with other generals/officers/soldiers. He force chokes them, everybody is intimidated by his sheer presence and in general Vader also is pretty articulate when he talks. The music, aesthetics, etc obviously help a ton. But you are right, if we just look at his feats it's pretty much one failure after the other and it's weird that people overlook this.
It will be interesting to see what people will say about story details of episode 8 when it actually is different from the formula we all know. I think no matter what they did with it, people will be angry
That about endurance is kind of a spin imo to each their own tho, if you felt that way in no way i am trying to say otherwise, but for me, the whole point of the movie is about the rebellion being cornered by the Empire making their victory in a new hope feel meaningless:
- Massive loss on Hoth, more than half their troops and support personal killed, equipment and ships around the same numbers. They barely manage to survive. And afterwards the empire is on full pursuit. - Luke's training gets interrupted and he gets injured. - There is almost nowhere to hide from the Empire, which is shown as extremely far reaching (Han/Leia whole arc after Hoth is pretty much about how hard it is to hide from the Empire and to find potential allies for the rebellion).
This setback gives breathing space to the Empire to start a second death star to force the Rebellion's hand (and fall into a trap to finish them off), which gets us to the Return of the Jedi where the rebellion plays everything to one card since they know it's their last chance, because they were given a crippling blow in ESB.Luckily for the rebellion, the force is a hell of a plot armor (literally) and allowed the ewoks and our heroes to disable the shield just in time.
It's about showing us that despite their first victory in a new hope, the clock is still ticking, and it runs against the Rebellion. Dark or not dark, i don't know, it certainly needs some definition. Morally speaking the movie is not dark, but i would say it has a very pessimistic tone to balance a new hope's ending.
On April 18 2017 21:57 Plansix wrote: You can’t make a better Darth Vader. He is one of the most iconic villains of all time. Kylo Ren can be seen a meta commentary on that specific problem. The one nice part about Ren is that he has a similar dynamic with the rest of the Imperials/New Order, which is full of distrust. The CGI Stoke was a less than perfect choice, better than Devil Alien with a double lightsaber.
I might get burn alive here but I never understood what was so great about darth vader. Yes he got a nice look and all but the guy is a non stop disapointment.
Outside of his "feelling" skills that help the empire to move the plot along at the start of empire, he fail in all of his task, most of them being rather easy. Getting the death star plan on the ship, crushing the rebelion on Hott, killing an unexperience Luke in duel, getting Leya to talk...All of those should have been an easy one, yet everytime the rebellion win just under his nose.
For me Vador was always that guy unable to kill a fly with a rocket luncher everyone say he is awesome and super scary but the only time we see that is when he is with other empire member against the rebelion he seems to be totally powerless. If he would have been a normal officer it seems like he would have been a shitty one.
But I do have a problem with action movie vilain in general so don't take this to hard.
I think it's mostly the atmosphere when he interacts with other generals/officers/soldiers. He force chokes them, everybody is intimidated by his sheer presence and in general Vader also is pretty articulate when he talks. The music, aesthetics, etc obviously help a ton. But you are right, if we just look at his feats it's pretty much one failure after the other and it's weird that people overlook this.
It will be interesting to see what people will say about story details of episode 8 when it actually is different from the formula we all know. I think no matter what they did with it, people will be angry
Oh episode 5 is surely the best movie so far in the star wars universe, episode 6 is pretty mediocre though
I just think the universe, mythos and characters need to expand a bit. It was fine the way it was in the OT, but these days i expect more worldbuilding and character depth tbh. I only count the actual star wars movies, i know that there are animations, books, etc but in reality that's only for the hardcore fanbase.
I am sure i am in the very minority here, Rogue one is the best one for me (ESB close second). It took me some extra-views to reach that point, but i really appreciate what Gareth did with it and how he took the chance by himself to fill some of the holes in a way i found pleasant and enjoyable.
On April 19 2017 07:14 Godwrath wrote: I am sure i am in the very minority here, Rogue one is the best one for me (ESB close second). It took me some extra-views to reach that point, but i really appreciate what Gareth did with it and how he took the chance by himself to fill some of the holes in a way i found pleasant and enjoyable.
Yea I watched Rogue One for the first time this weekend and really enjoyed it. Kind of depressing to watch + Show Spoiler +
Maybe I'm weird, but out of all of them I kind of enjoyed The Clone Wars the best. Always enjoyed Anakin as a character, and that series had some good backstory for him without making him out to be a complete douche like in the movies.
On April 18 2017 08:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: The funny thing is that while people complain about that, they also complain about the new "villain" because he isn't menacing enough. So what do you wants? Another darth vader which would be a complaint about similarity, or something "new" by having a villain who is conflicted, rather new to the force as well, etc (which then is new) Ofc execution of these aspects matters a lot, but it was fairly well done i think. People really just don't like adam drivers looks i guess :/ .
This is what makes me freaking hate critics, especially for the last 2 modern Star Wars films.
If they change nothing, it's a rehash, if they do something new, it doesnt feel like Star Wars.
Just very very bored with that particular criticism.
On April 18 2017 08:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: The funny thing is that while people complain about that, they also complain about the new "villain" because he isn't menacing enough. So what do you wants? Another darth vader which would be a complaint about similarity, or something "new" by having a villain who is conflicted, rather new to the force as well, etc (which then is new) Ofc execution of these aspects matters a lot, but it was fairly well done i think. People really just don't like adam drivers looks i guess :/ .
This is what makes me freaking hate critics, especially for the last 2 modern Star Wars films.
If they change nothing, it's a rehash, if they do something new, it doesnt feel like Star Wars.
Just very very bored with that particular criticism.
The impossible task of building a villain that can be as impactful as one with a 30 year relationship with the fan base.
It is why I loved Rogue One’s villain. A middle manager who is willing to create a genocide cannon just to get a promotion. A meek villain that is also speaks to the most terrify part of authorities regimes, the banal evil those regimes empower.
I already am feeling a bit fatigue of the star wars movies. I don't see myself stayed hyped for next few ones if they really do bring one every year-ish
I was gonna say if only Rogue One didn't completely change their script....but it still ends up better than jarjarAbram's TFA, episode7 truly turned into a huge pile of shit at this stage. I just absolutely hate the mary sue ray, think Mark Hamill too said similar thing about the no training bit too.
And the new trailer...can it be more underwhelming? It is actually quite late for a move that is coming out in year ends, are they rushing it? i have to say, i truly dont feel like giving any money to Disney anymore (their recent works disgusted me too).
On April 18 2017 08:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: The funny thing is that while people complain about that, they also complain about the new "villain" because he isn't menacing enough. So what do you wants? Another darth vader which would be a complaint about similarity, or something "new" by having a villain who is conflicted, rather new to the force as well, etc (which then is new) Ofc execution of these aspects matters a lot, but it was fairly well done i think. People really just don't like adam drivers looks i guess :/ .
This is what makes me freaking hate critics, especially for the last 2 modern Star Wars films.
If they change nothing, it's a rehash, if they do something new, it doesnt feel like Star Wars.
Just very very bored with that particular criticism.
Critics? Last I check both of the last 2 movies were well received by the critics for what they are, entertaining dumb movies. The fans are the one who bitched and moaned about these films because their expectations can never be realistically met.
As someone neutral about SW but who likes the universe, I just wished they could do something else with it, something with a great story and characters I can get invested in. And on that front both movies (maybe all of them) failed me.
On April 20 2017 07:10 BurningSera wrote: I was gonna say if only Rogue One didn't completely change their script....but it still ends up better than jarjarAbram's TFA, episode7 truly turned into a huge pile of shit at this stage. I just absolutely hate the mary sue ray, think Mark Hamill too said similar thing about the no training bit too.
About the change on the script of Rogue one. What exactly are you referring to ? I keep reading this, but people seem to be unaware that Gareth's first ending to Rogue one was because he thought that disney wouldn't let him to do what he actually did. Most of the other stuff is actual normal post-production proccess.
Mark Hamill's Luke was pretty much a Gary Stu aswell (seriously, i don't even want to start pointing out the flaws in this, at the end is "what happens when the force is strong with you" which is literally "IDDQD bitches" and Gareth portrayed this perfectly imo), he has been somewhat angry because his character was used as a marketing bait for TFA but never got any use (yeah, JJ for me is like Lucas but withouth the talent to integrate special effects that Lucas has, but those lens flare ) . He also said that he wasn't confident on how they were going with his character on TLJ, but that after seeing the result he was wrong, so there's that.
On April 19 2017 07:14 Godwrath wrote: I am sure i am in the very minority here, Rogue one is the best one for me (ESB close second). It took me some extra-views to reach that point, but i really appreciate what Gareth did with it and how he took the chance by himself to fill some of the holes in a way i found pleasant and enjoyable.
Yea I watched Rogue One for the first time this weekend and really enjoyed it. Kind of depressing to watch + Show Spoiler +
It blew my mothers mind when i was like ya know everyone dies right? and shes all wow no spoilers and i was like come on dude how many of them did you see in the next movie?
On April 19 2017 07:14 Godwrath wrote: I am sure i am in the very minority here, Rogue one is the best one for me (ESB close second). It took me some extra-views to reach that point, but i really appreciate what Gareth did with it and how he took the chance by himself to fill some of the holes in a way i found pleasant and enjoyable.
Yea I watched Rogue One for the first time this weekend and really enjoyed it. Kind of depressing to watch + Show Spoiler +
It blew my mothers mind when i was like ya know everyone dies right? and shes all wow no spoilers and i was like come on dude how many of them did you see in the next movie?
This Luke Skywalker looks a bit more fleshed out and proper. As if the old one was just "Luke Skywalker with a gray beard" whereas this one looks like an elder Jedi in his own right.
Imo, they tried to do too much or appease too much in The Force Awakens that they ended up not doing much at all except rehashing A New Hope. That said RO > TFA by light years.
On September 18 2017 05:47 Micro_Jackson wrote: It might be justified for her character, but once again the good guys in star wars win because the designers of a base are stupid.
I mean my phone wont let me change half the settings and this super killer base´s shields can be disabled by one person that isnt even an engineer?
In most science fiction media, the aliens have a hive mind and humanity wins by taking out the top alien. Or the aliens are powering their intergalactic empire using one power source with no redundant systems.
If we wanted proper logic, no real military would ever allow a project as significant as the Death Star to be anywhere near as exposed as it was in Ep 4. Star Wars isn't about being an impossible-to-please Star Trek pedant about fake science.
At the very least, Star Wars could at least hide itself behind a mystique of space mumbo-jumbo and suspension of disbelief.
Don't think I've talked to anyone, hardcore sci-fi or not, who didn't think firing off an entire sun to take out 5 planets solar systems apart wasn't silly. I think the concept of space and space travel has become mainstream blockbuster enough that most people know suns are gigantic and that space is big.
On September 18 2017 08:34 ninazerg wrote: I want to know who the first Jedi was.
Dai Bendu
EU stuff is lame. I'm glad they scrapped all of it.
There were some lame stuff, but a lot of it was good (if you read any of the main books). I think this new universe has had a bad start so far, not been a big fan of a lot of the things they've done.
Hoping this movie is better than TFA... Just sucks they had to completely remove all the character development Leia/Han/Luke had in the previous movies.
The EU was of course a gigantic shitfest that no one could make any sense of, so it made sense to kill it. Thrawn and Hand of Thrawn were a fantastic five-book series though. They thankfully did make Thrawn canon again through Star Wars Rebels, although it's not exactly clear where he fits into the overall scheme of things since his original story is probably scrapped. The original Thrawn trilogy did, to be fair, exist before the EU became a clusterfuck; mostly it helped start it. But Hand of Thrawn existed well after and about 10% of it seemed to be devoted to dealing with that crap. And every new addition to the story makes it harder and harder to have coherence.
There hasn't been much in terms of new characters, but I would say the signal to noise ratio of good stuff in the post-Disney Star Wars universe is significantly higher. A much more internally consistent story.
Rogue One is a great addition to the Star Wars universe because it takes a glaringly stupid plot mechanism—the exhaust port vulnerability in the Death Star—and attributes it to an architect's sabotage. One of the dumbest things about the Star Wars franchise then becomes something sad, poignant, and believable.
But Rogue One also raises new questions about its fictional world. Some really burning, important questions.
Like, what's the deal with the disk formats of the Star Wars universe?
Upon reviewing the Star Wars canon of movies (no animated films or shows, and no Expanded Universe content, which now exists in a purgatory of maybe-canon), it's become clear to me that that the galaxy is crippled by an abundance of disk formats, with all of the accompanying interoperability issues that we see on our own planet. Every time the Rebel Alliance changes bases, they must be lugging around a spaceship full of drives, both new and obsolete, to read every possible format.
Lol, SW:EU wasnt really cannon even before Disney took over. George has made many conflicting statements over the years, first saying that the EU is cannon, but then started changing his opinion the closer the prequels were to be released, to even state the same thing Disney did in 2014: that the movies the accompanying books/materials for the movies and the 2 animated series about the Clone Wars are cannon.
The stupid outrage a few years ago when Disney took over was baseless But at least it generated some discussion and shone a light on the EU because until then not many knew about it. Saying that it was lame, shitfest and whatnot, Im gonna have to call people out on it because you obviously havent read much, if any, outside of Thrawn, because if you had, especially books from Anderesen, Karpyshyn, Luceno etc, or books from Sith PoV like Malak, Bane, Plagueis etc, or graphic novels about X-Wing, Republic, Commando Old Republic, Dark Empire or heck even played KOTOR 1 and 2, you wouldnt be saying that nor you would rate Thrawn as the best, or at least you would know there are 6, not 5 books. Outbound Flight is the name of the book, which is a prequel to the trilogy.
Having read pretty much all of the EU (minus some romantic books and from 2007 onward when I stopped), I think the EU was very good. I dont mind that Disney decided not to follow EU continuity, I understand their position, but so far their take on the SW universe has left me largely unimpressed. I was hoping to see (besides Thrawn) movies from Sith PoV, or movies featuring multifaceted characters, something like Quinlan Vos who is basically a Batman type of character who is a good guy but bends the rules as he sees fit, or something like Kyle Katarn who is basically a Han Solo type of character but a Jedi, or simply make a movie about Ahsoka Tano and tie it in with Rebels. I think these types of characters would be interesting for today's pop culture.
That’s a wrap on the biggest movie of the year! Tonight, Rian Johnson took to Instagram to announce that post production has wrapped on Star Wars: The Last Jedi. The director commended his team for the hard work they have done and that he’ll miss working in dark rooms with them.
With post production finally coming to a close, this means that Star Wars: The Last Jedi is ready for its December 15 release date. However, that isn’t the only exciting part. With Johnson announcing this news, it is only a matter of time before Disney and Lucasfilm finally showcase a brand new trailer for the highly anticipated sequel set in a galaxy far far away.
Recently, a fan even asked franchise star Mark Hamill on when Disney will release the newest trailer, to which he responded with “watch Monday Night Football on October 9th for no apparent reason.” He has since deleted the tweet.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi flies into theatres on December 15, 2017.
Kylo going all in with the Dark Side Snokes commands him to finish it by killing Leia, his mother Meanwhile. Rey finds Luke Luke trains Rey Look sees Rey's potential, refuses to teach her any more Kylo about to kill Leia, finds a change of heart at the last moment Meanwhile, Ray searches for answers, turns to Snokes Darth Rey vs. Kylo Ren the White
On October 10 2017 15:25 Keyboard Warrior wrote: spoilers ahead
Kylo going all in with the Dark Side Snokes commands him to finish it by killing Leia, his mother Meanwhile. Rey finds Luke Luke trains Rey Look sees Rey's potential, refuses to teach her any more Kylo about to kill Leia, finds a change of heart at the last moment Meanwhile, Ray searches for answers, turns to Snokes Darth Rey vs. Kylo Ren the White
FUCKING HYYYPE MOTHERFUCKERS!!!
I mean not to sound crude but I think she has to die right?
Id say he kills her then has a change of heart afterwords most likely
Either she dies or the cost is too much that shes not going to appear anymore (I feel so bad that im going into exile forever or some shit), given Carrie's current uhm status I don't think she will appear in 9 (apart from one of those halluc things mb).
So I think dying is more likely, some photon torpedoes pew pew - personal execution by Snoke would be meh tbh, more impactful but kind of cliche. I like the idea of a destroyed craft with not too much buildup and her dying more.
On October 10 2017 15:25 Keyboard Warrior wrote: spoilers ahead
Kylo going all in with the Dark Side Snokes commands him to finish it by killing Leia, his mother Meanwhile. Rey finds Luke Luke trains Rey Look sees Rey's potential, refuses to teach her any more Kylo about to kill Leia, finds a change of heart at the last moment Meanwhile, Ray searches for answers, turns to Snokes Darth Rey vs. Kylo Ren the White
FUCKING HYYYPE MOTHERFUCKERS!!!
Or they both peace out on the entire thing together and try to find their own path. If they wanted to go interesting places, fuck being told by masters what to believe, find out where you belong on you own.
On October 10 2017 20:38 Kipsate wrote: Either she dies or the cost is too much that shes not going to appear anymore (I feel so bad that im going into exile forever or some shit), given Carrie's current uhm status I don't think she will appear in 9 (apart from one of those halluc things mb).
So I think dying is more likely, some photon torpedoes pew pew - personal execution by Snoke would be meh tbh, more impactful but kind of cliche. I like the idea of a destroyed craft with not too much buildup and her dying more.
The studio said they are not going to try to digitally recreate her and will write around it. Assuming she lives through this movie, my bet is they will deal with her in the opening yellow letters of the third film.
The saddest part about this movie is we don't get another round of Harrison Ford doing promotion for it. The man is a drunk blessing on all talk shows.
On October 10 2017 15:25 Keyboard Warrior wrote: spoilers ahead
Kylo going all in with the Dark Side Snokes commands him to finish it by killing Leia, his mother Meanwhile. Rey finds Luke Luke trains Rey Look sees Rey's potential, refuses to teach her any more Kylo about to kill Leia, finds a change of heart at the last moment Meanwhile, Ray searches for answers, turns to Snokes Darth Rey vs. Kylo Ren the White
FUCKING HYYYPE MOTHERFUCKERS!!!
I mean not to sound crude but I think she has to die right?
Id say he kills her then has a change of heart afterwords most likely
You know out of respect I can see them not actually killing her character. They can probably find a somewhat reasonable way to just push her out of the story after her scenes are done. Unless they already filmed her death scene before she passed.
edit: I'm not even a big fan of the original characters dying tbh. Han dying in the first one is not a bad move because his character served its purpose, but if Leia dies in this one it will seem super forced and will probably lead everyone to believe Luke will die in the last one
Han dying seemed almost like a crude attempt to fulfill Ford's Ep 6 desire. So far after the fact as to be kind of expected, but also short of the impact you would hope it'd have. After rewatching it without the expectations I initially had, I stopped seeing it as particularly forced or unfortunate. But it wasn't really that meaningful either.
I would expect Leia to appear very briefly in Ep 9, maybe standing in the crowd smiling with approval at the heroes and their ultimate success. She just isn't that critical to the story. And Star Wars has always been a bit of a feel-good narrative, so I expect it to be short on impactful deaths in the end.
On another topic: Johnson seems to have done a good job with this movie from what I can see. Next movie was supposed to be Trevorrow, but now it's back to Abrams. What do people think, is that good or bad? He makes good Star Wars, but honestly the aspect where three different authors tell the story seems to be good for Star Wars. The prequels had a single main storyteller and were worse off for it.
Ep 07 had this pretty combination of fun and seriousness that I really liked but the overall direction of that film wasn't neccesarily good feels narrative to be honest. Lots of darkish color paletess etc as well giving it more of a grim and serious look and less feel good.
I had hoped to see Leia become a Jedi Master as the original movies hinted that the Force was strong with her as well. The EU for all the interesting things it did, really missed the boat on that one, relegating her entirely to the political sphere until very late. Now mind you, Leia as a politician did make for some interesting stories. (It was Han that really got the short straw in some of those books.) But having seen that already, I wanted to see the Jedi Master iteration. I don't think we would necessarily have gotten that as they were going Leia as general. But then real life had to intrude So very sad.
It strikes me that one advantage of novels is your story is not beholden to vagaries of the real world.
On April 18 2017 08:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's really weird to me that people are so anti star wars atm. Like i get it. Episode 7 was very close to episode 4 in terms of reaching certain plot points. The funny thing is that while people complain about that, they also complain about the new "villain" because he isn't menacing enough. So what do you wants? Another darth vader which would be a complaint about similarity, or something "new" by having a villain who is conflicted, rather new to the force as well, etc (which then is new) Ofc execution of these aspects matters a lot, but it was fairly well done i think. People really just don't like adam drivers looks i guess :/
The first movie was a setup to this one, we now have our characters established and now it's time to let them have their own adventure. Luke being unsure about the jedi makes for a nice thematic topic. Like what does he mean when he says "it's so much bigger" ? There is more to it than dark/light! I think getting actually new content is what people wanted? It's funny that i defend the new movies, i am not even a big star wars fan to begin with and think the OT is overrated and viewed with nostalgia goggles. So going by the teaser, the movie will look fantastic and have a theme which wasn't really done before and might actually add nuance to the franchise (i am only talking official movies here btw, that's the stuff most people actually know and mean when they talk about star wars). A bit excited about it tbh, because it might finally show us more about the universe and force (and give it more depth), something which should have been done in the other episodes already tbh.
Force Awakens was similar to old Star Wars but it went for bigger bang in cheesy way (stupid lightsaber, galactic range starkiller base, droid more droidy, snoke like emperor except even weirder, young jedi from nowhere even more prodigal apparently then any jedi before). And execution doesn't exactly feel like Star Wars. Episode 7 was nothing new + more jaw dropping toys. By that logic Episode 10 can have subtitle: the same but even more jawdropping toys.
It's the eternal inner conflict of Star Wars fans that on the one hand they're super hardcore about the original movies, which were childish, shallow and fun, and the other hand they're super critical about the new movies, which are childish, shallow and fun. You gotta dislike the new movies, because this makes you 1337 cool, but ignore that logical consistency would require the same criticism towards the old movies. Quite transparent.
I chose enjoyment over self congratulatory elitism.
On October 11 2017 20:57 TigerKarlGeld wrote: It's the eternal inner conflict of Star Wars fans that on the one hand they're super hardcore about the original movies, which were childish, shallow and fun, and the other hand they're super critical about the new movies, which are childish, shallow and fun. You gotta dislike the new movies, because this makes you 1337 cool, but ignore that logical consistency would require the same criticism towards the old movies. Quite transparent.
I chose enjoyment over self congratulatory elitism.
Your statement is just self congratulatory elitism.
You know that tingle feeling when you watch something bad ass and hype to the max? I didn't have that with this trailer. I'm sad about that. I had so much hype for this but I just didn't feel it. My friend was telling me about these awesome things that was in the trailer. Didn't see them.
A lot of people forget that critique is supposed to deepen the enjoyment of something, not lessen it. Shitting on a film isn’t critique.
There is a section of every fandom that simply loves to rip apart any piece of media created. I remember in highschool people would rip apart Deep Space 9 episodes and say the next generation was better. But TNG was some campy non-sense on a low budget stage and the enterprise was also a convention center for some reason. I still love that show, but it was amazingly weird.
Episode 7 has problems, but dwelling on them sort of misses the point of enjoying films.
On October 11 2017 20:57 TigerKarlGeld wrote: It's the eternal inner conflict of Star Wars fans that on the one hand they're super hardcore about the original movies, which were childish, shallow and fun, and the other hand they're super critical about the new movies, which are childish, shallow and fun. You gotta dislike the new movies, because this makes you 1337 cool, but ignore that logical consistency would require the same criticism towards the old movies. Quite transparent.
I chose enjoyment over self congratulatory elitism.
I feel like the new movie didn't 'grow up' with its audiences, and that's a shame for a franchise of this size and with this kind of potential. An example of what I mean would be the Harry Potter movies - they start out very light hearted, downright silly at times -- and grow into something much darker, serious and mature towards the end of the series. The new SW movie for me didn't really show any further 'depth' -- it was more like watching The Expendables 3; ticks all the boxes, more lights, more action, but that's about it. But when I went to watch The Expendables 3, all I wanted and expected out of it was more shooting and dumbass jokes, whereas many SW fans do hope for and expect to see more depth to those movies than chases and fight scenes.
edit: I don't really think SW7 was a bad movie on its own, and it was a fun enough popcorn flick. I think it was also a huge missed opportunity as a continuation of the franchise, and not nearly as interesting as it could have been. It was certainly not 'memorable' in any way, to me at least.
I don’t know, the most grown up thing Episode 7 did was tell us the heroes failed. It didn’t make a new reason for the empire existing again, it stuck to the old one. The heroes were unable to make the perfect world they hoped for. Luke failed to avoid Ben’s mistakes. Leia failed her son. Han wasn’t able to save his son.
Think of the take away from Episode 7, that it is impossible to save our children from facings the same problems we face.
People have different definitions of the words grown up and mature. If you look at box office tracking websites, the fun type of movies like the Marvel movies and Disney animated films are classified as good for all ages. The suits expect the target audience for those movies to be demographically diverse and comprise people all the way from young kids to senior citizens. It's not uncommon seeing people close to retirement age with Frozen merchandise in their office cubicle or talking about enjoying Moana. I work with a lot of old people.
The darkest, most "serious", most dyspotian movies are generally classified as YA and targeted at people in the 18-29 demographic. If those movies miss that age group, they are pretty much dead. That niche imploded last year with disappointing box office numbers. You're not going to see plenty of those kinds of movies in the near term.
Has anyone here read Thrawn, the book released back in April as a (part of the canon) extension of the EU darling? I thought it had some pretty good writing and I recommend it to Star Wars fans.
On October 15 2017 02:45 LegalLord wrote: Has anyone here read Thrawn, the book released back in April as a (part of the canon) extension of the EU darling? I thought it had some pretty good writing and I recommend it to Star Wars fans.
The original Thrawn books are some of the highest acclaimed creations of the Expanded Universe (or rather, "Legends" now that all of the old stuff got scrapped from EU canon), and they were also written by Timothy Zahn, so I'm not too surprised this turned out to be good.
On October 12 2017 00:46 Plansix wrote: A lot of people forget that critique is supposed to deepen the enjoyment of something, not lessen it. Shitting on a film isn’t critique.
There is a section of every fandom that simply loves to rip apart any piece of media created. I remember in highschool people would rip apart Deep Space 9 episodes and say the next generation was better. But TNG was some campy non-sense on a low budget stage and the enterprise was also a convention center for some reason. I still love that show, but it was amazingly weird.
Episode 7 has problems, but dwelling on them sort of misses the point of enjoying films.
E7 was ok. Its fine to make an unoriginal homage movie, but it should at least try to be better than the original source material. It wasn't bad though. personally I though Rogue 1 was fucking fantastic. I got real nerd chills from the last scene.
Comparing the cheesiness of the first with the old can't really be done, because SW was so revolutionary at the time. Space fantasy with awesome special effects? Who wouldn't be blown away by that in the late '70s? It would've been more interesting if they'd actually tone it down tremendously and did some more world building or whatever like LOTR did in the start, only to get to something super climactic. But no, they had to overshoot everything. Bigger threat, bigger sword, more visible internal conflict, more clutter. I personally loved the tavern scene, it was so full of little things you could focus on that was going on and even if it might've had some pairing with the cafeteria scene, it ultimately was very important, albeit shallow, character building. I've completely lost most interest for SW, because most are just blinded by nostalgia or swept away by the hype, but I'll still be watching them, just not going to the cinema to check em out. Same with the Marvel movies really (except for the really awesome jawdropping eyecandy stuff + Show Spoiler +
On October 11 2017 20:57 TigerKarlGeld wrote: It's the eternal inner conflict of Star Wars fans that on the one hand they're super hardcore about the original movies, which were childish, shallow and fun, and the other hand they're super critical about the new movies, which are childish, shallow and fun. You gotta dislike the new movies, because this makes you 1337 cool, but ignore that logical consistency would require the same criticism towards the old movies. Quite transparent.
I chose enjoyment over self congratulatory elitism.
Your statement is just self congratulatory elitism.
Some child took offense. The world keeps spinning.
I don' think people just complain about 7 being a copy of 4 its also what happens after 6 to lead to 7 doesn't make much sense especially when you compare it to the expanded universe plot line. It also destroys the characters of the original heros.
Luke goes from Hero of the Rebellion, bringing back his father to the light and in turn killing the evil Emperor of the Galaxy (Temporarily in the EU at least) to a coward hermit. Han abandons the woman he loves to go back to smuggling completely undoing his character. That and the fact the the overall state of the galaxy seems unchanged after 30 years or so just the Empire is rebranded seemingly making episode 4-6 pointless.
The way in which the new cannon explains all this is just meh compared to what was already written and doesn't make sense.
Ultimately 7 will be judged by how it fits in with 8 & 9. They can pull it back and make it a great trilogy still. The amazing thing about A New Hope is that it felt so complete as a standalone story while still providing context for the other films. That's obviously a very hard thing to accomplish because they just didn't quite manage it with 7.
I wholeheartedly agree with Zaros. How do you even build an entire killer planet unnoticed in such a short time span? Your entire organization is toppled. The emperor dies, his right hand dies and the entire fleet was destroyed or at the very least heavily diminished. It feels more like a reset with some tributes than a continuation and does completely shit on the earlier established narratives. The only redeeming qualities will be the cool action sequences in space or ground (with the battles), tech (like design of certain crafts or whatever), and the surroundings; basically how they shape the world and how the camera tracks it all. I'll be very surprised if they manage to pull out a decent story with good character development out of their asses and not hamfist their way from plot point A to plot point B.
Well, even if you consider the construction of the new weapon as plausible, they totally destroyed any political context and only recycling the IV in such an obvious way. I did not feel implicated in the slightest, and using the black dude only for comic relief, it's disgusting. From half of the movie, every scenes feel so stupid just because you can predict everything (like the destruction of the death star 3.0, han solo's death, the tavern which is totally replicated) and more supidly mary sue than Rey... u die, at least Luke had some problems in his formation. Anyway, if someone felt the same tension of the IV, good for you but clearly you must have been used to the marvel bullshits. This movie with Zazie dans le Métro, Bright Star and the Wayward Cloud one of the worst moment I ever passed in a cinema, I felt so freaking insulted, this movie has no ambition apart from making money from the idiots like me who paid for this. I didn't even watch Rogue One and I will surely not pay anything to watch the plagiat of ESB. At least, it helps to consider the OT has a good family movie but nothing more, only the III tried sth else.
I must say i too was dissapointed with force awakens. The whole deathstar 3 thing and wiping any context is so stupid it stops me from considering it a good movie. "Hey look we have a deathstar! but now it can destroy 9 planets at the same time! but with no tension or background. In fact we just destroyed the new republic without them even noticing them so only siths remain, again!
Even if it was entertaning...I can't consider it a good movie. Rogue One was cool though.
Some things that I've seen of last jedi worry me...some shots from the trailer and the storyline they give also seem very...formulaic. We'll see.
On December 04 2017 04:07 stilt wrote: Well, even if you consider the construction of the new weapon as plausible, they totally destroyed any political context and only recycling the IV in such an obvious way. I did not feel implicated in the slightest, and using the black dude only for comic relief, it's disgusting. From half of the movie, every scenes feel so stupid just because you can predict everything (like the destruction of the death star 3.0, han solo's death, the tavern which is totally replicated) and more supidly mary sue than Rey... u die, at least Luke had some problems in his formation. Anyway, if someone felt the same tension of the IV, good for you but clearly you must have been used to the marvel bullshits. This movie with Zazie dans le Métro, Bright Star and the Wayward Cloud one of the worst moment I ever passed in a cinema, I felt so freaking insulted, this movie has no ambition apart from making money from the idiots like me who paid for this. I didn't even watch Rogue One and I will surely not pay anything to watch the plagiat of ESB. At least, it helps to consider the OT has a good family movie but nothing more, only the III tried sth else.
To be fair to Disney Rogue One was a very good film and not nearly as many plot holes.
If the flow for E8 is like E7, then we will have Mary Sue training with minimum strugless just to be the greatest Jedi of all time in just days, Milhouse, sorry the guy with the black mask (I dont even remeber his name and I used to be a Starwars fan before ) will continue being a brat, and Snore will throw bigger lightnings than the Emperor. Ohh I forgot, the comic reliever will breath everytime harder and harder.
I didn't like episode 7 so I will wait till it shows up on amazon or sky before watching it and if that disappoints then I won't bother with episode 9 at all.
Well, the reviews of The Last Jedi are certainly heartening. Some are even putting it on the level of The Empire Strikes Back, which is high praise, indeed.
What I have found watching the new movies is that my opinion of them has improved over time and with subsequent viewings. I think the big difference between my initial opinions and my current opinions is that I now care more about the characters. In other words, it takes a little time to build enough nostalgia for the new films for them to be competitive with the original trilogy. Of course, the prequels will never get to that level because they suffer from some crippling flaws, but the new films are worthy successors to the original trilogy.
The prequels actually just get worse and worse with every viewing. EP 7 will allways be at least a "fun scifi adventure movie". Some Star Wars diehards might hate on it but alltogether its a decent flick.
I thought Ep 7 was really good. Not perfect, but I did enjoy it a lot. It suffered from being the product of a decade's worth of built-up expectations, so there was no way I could be satisfied on the first viewing, but it is a worthy addition to the series. I enjoyed it much more the second time than the first.
Rogue One looked like an utter mess, I thought every trailer sucked, and they had some shitty post-production issues. I went in expecting not much, and got a movie that was actually quite alright. Not as good as E7 and the characters were all forgettable, but Jyn wasn't quite the Mary Sue the previews made her out to be so it was still an improvement.
Ep 8 looks like it'll be good. I won't be anywhere near as hyped as for the first one and I'm not going to preorder tickets for the early viewing or anything, but I am looking forward to it and I'll make time on the first day. It does seem to have all the makings of a quality production, that's for sure.
The prequels... well I watch them mostly if I'm doing a consecutive viewing of all the Star Wars movies and usually I watch them and think, these ain't so bad... but then I watch the originals and they completely and utterly blow the prequels out of the water. The prequels are akin to the 4kids version of Star Wars with all of the good things about them whitewashed and a more mediocre story shoehorned in on a narrative that would otherwise be interesting. There are a few genuine gems in there, buried under mountains of crap.
The Verge’s review is very good. The tone of the movie seems to be what people want and focuses on letting go of the past. With an entire series driven by nostalgia, that sounds like the right tone.
The collective nerd whining and gate keeping will be just as annoying as last time. Though there will be less shock that the cool dude all in black is just a Vader fan boy, dandy with baby rage issues.
On December 13 2017 08:18 Uldridge wrote: There would be less nerd whining if they managed not to make it such a blatant rip off. It's inexcusable shameless money grabbing.
From what I've read from the reviews and from murmurings about leakers, the controversy about TLJ won't be about being derivative but rather about the choices they've made for certain characters and maybe plot points too. I trust the director to have made a fresher, well-executed movie, but I heard the twists may not vibe well with everyone.
On December 13 2017 08:18 Uldridge wrote: There would be less nerd whining if they managed not to make it such a blatant rip off. It's inexcusable shameless money grabbing.
I don't think its possible to rip off something if its literaly the thing its supposedly ripping off. Its like DS9 ripping off TNG.
Its a crazy American guys interpretation of samurai movies done in space. If he was Japanese there would be mecha everywhere.
That being said it was and still is the bleeding edge of special effects marvel has seen an uptick in visual quality ever sense Disney bought star wars.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
Last Jedi is a great movie. While its not on the level of Empire strikes back, it is top 3 in my list. (5 > 3.5 > 8). Being the middle movie, it does have a feel of setting things up for a big finale coming soon in the next movie. But most of the scenes were well shot. Pacing was done well generally for a 2.5 hours movie.
Parents are still more hyped than their kids when watching the movie.
Silent destruction of the Star Destroyer . Kylo, Rey Snoke scenes on the ship. Poe getting shot. YODA!
Too many side characters Love triange - WTF? It came out of nowhere. I hate porgs. Snoke's death was underwhelming. Leia's Deus Ex Machina - Space survival First Orders' Flag officers still getting tossed around like rag dolls. Everyone can be a pilot.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids.
And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series.
From an in-universe perspective, I don't think either the Empire or the Republic can wipe each other out for good. Each seem tied to a side of the force, albeit in a rather surprising manner: the Empire values discipline and order, yet it is associated with the Dark Side/Sith, whereas it's values are better reflected in the Light Side.
Then again, maybe that is the whole point: balance, both on a large, galactic and/or universal scale, but also on it's lower levels (clusters, stars, nations/factions, people). It could also be that the entire universe is just one big fractal, one where there has to be a balance at any level you look at.
saw it,but man there is so much happening,i will have to watch it again but this time digital,the 3d is fine but i still prefer the classic.overall i liked it.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids.
And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series.
My issue with Force Awakens was that several plot directions were clearly made simply to mirror A New Hope as closely as possible, without the intent of creating its own unique story. Not even in a "loosely derivative" kind of way, more like "rename new cast to their old cast counterparts and it's A New Hope (2015)" derivative.
What you're saying about a unique take would be a lot more relevant if they'd shown any of that buildup, instead of just dropping a fully formed empire, a new evil emperor and a fully built super death weapon.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids.
And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series.
My issue with Force Awakens was that several plot directions were clearly made simply to mirror A New Hope as closely as possible, without the intent of creating its own unique story. Not even in a "loosely derivative" kind of way, more like "rename new cast to their old cast counterparts and it's A New Hope (2015)" derivative.
What you're saying about a unique take would be a lot more relevant if they'd shown any of that buildup, instead of just dropping a fully formed empire, a new evil emperor and a fully built super death weapon.
A New Hope started with no build up. Vader was a fully formed villain at the start. The whole draw of the movie was coming in the middle of what appeared to be a protracted, generation spanning conflict. I could have dealt with less death planet, but I get that they need things to fight on in space.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
Lol this has no coherence at all, TFA is a complete ripoff, if you like it, just enjoy it, but dont make excuses generalizing.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
Lol this has no coherence at all, TFA is a complete ripoff, if you like it, just enjoy it, but dont make excuses generalizing.
There is no generalizing going on. There are is a direct reference to hidden fortress at the beginning of A New Hope. George lucas talked all the time about how he was inspired by samurai films and Kurosawa.
You can't "ripoff" things in art like movies. Its like saying modern shooters are ripping off Doom or Mass effect ripped off gears of war. They arn't real arguments.
I mean the basic film concept of "the heroes journey" is ripped off of antiquity era literature.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
I imagine that the line-in-the-sand is being a shameless ripoff of itself.
Maybe that would be true if it happened right after Return of the Jedi. But this is a generation later and after the nightmare of the prequels, which seemed to almost revile what people liked about Star Wars. I know as many people who saw is as renewing the faith with fans and providing a similar story for a new generation of kids.
And I still say that through line that the previous generation of heroes won the battle, but couldn't end the war is a unique take. Luke completely failing to train new Jedi is not the route I expected the series to go. And this movie questioning if the Jedi were ever the right way is exactly what I want from the series.
My issue with Force Awakens was that several plot directions were clearly made simply to mirror A New Hope as closely as possible, without the intent of creating its own unique story. Not even in a "loosely derivative" kind of way, more like "rename new cast to their old cast counterparts and it's A New Hope (2015)" derivative.
What you're saying about a unique take would be a lot more relevant if they'd shown any of that buildup, instead of just dropping a fully formed empire, a new evil emperor and a fully built super death weapon.
A New Hope started with no build up. Vader was a fully formed villain at the start. The whole draw of the movie was coming in the middle of what appeared to be a protracted, generation spanning conflict. I could have dealt with less death planet, but I get that they need things to fight on in space.
A New Hope has the benefit of having zero context to build off of, and starts in media res. The setting is an entirely blank slate for whatever is required for the ongoing plot.
Force Awakens does have context, and is built entirely from an existing setting.
But really, they could've taken any direction they wanted and made it work, they just didn't. It feels like a reboot that was forced to be a sequel, more or less.
On December 13 2017 10:59 Plansix wrote: So pretty much Star Wars?
I don't understand the thing you're doing. You meant Disney perhaps? You meant George Lucas perhaps? 4-6 were already ripoffs? Episode 1 was more original in storyline than episode 7, when they could've gone for a "proto Death Star", but no. In E07, what happens? BIGGER, BETTER, but somehow a commander on site that's less stable.Nonsensical, except for the fact that it's a completely derivative and has moderate entertainment value ONLY when you don't try to see it as a continuation of 4-6, because in the context of direct continuation it falls apart completely.
A New Hope is the plot of Hidden Fortress by Akira Kurosawa, but at the end they have a big WW2 style dog fight/bombing mission. A New Hope is just pulp tropes with a thick layer of sci-fi over a Kurosawa plotline.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the film is brilliant, great fun and a great reimagining of sci-fi. There is a reason it has been so popular for so long. But it isn’t completely original at all. I would say it is about as original as Force Awakens.
Lol this has no coherence at all, TFA is a complete ripoff, if you like it, just enjoy it, but dont make excuses generalizing.
Lucas was a giant Kurosawa fan. Like massive. That is why Darth Vader’s helmet looks like a samurai helmet and they fight with laser swords and talk about eastern mysticism. He also loved WW2 dog fight movies. He mashed them all up into something that was sort of amazing. But if you are aware of what his inspiration was, it becomes pretty obvious that he just ripped the plot out hidden fortress.
Which is fine. Magnificent seven is a great cowboy movie and also a Kurosawa film.
On December 14 2017 06:34 WolfintheSheep wrote: A New Hope has the benefit of having zero context to build off of, and starts in media res. The setting is an entirely blank slate for whatever is required for the ongoing plot.
Force Awakens does have context, and is built entirely from an existing setting.
But really, they could've taken any direction they wanted and made it work, they just didn't. It feels like a reboot that was forced to be a sequel, more or less.
Echo'ing this. I'd prefer it if there was an episode 6.5 where they'd build it up, or at least did some new universe building, because it simply falls flat and feels cheap as fuck. ANH had the benefit of dropping you into a new, wondrous environment with all these strange, mystical, exotic things going on. TFA is set in the known universe, so we already know all the stuff, so there shouldn't be all that much exploring to do, but it's basically the exact same journey, trying to give us the exact same moments. It just doesn't work for me. It feels forced and insulting. 1->3 deals with how the strength of the empire was forged; 4->6 was the clash of good and evil and good winning; 7 resets to 4, because they don't have anything original to go. 1->3 is WAY more interesting story wise, even though they completely fucked it up, than TFA. Why not make a movie about the aftermath, with different parties doing different things, a free for all, since the central power is gone with ultimately the new empire or whatever the fuck it was regaining power in secret. You can even follow fucking Han Solo as the main protagonist here.
It's been almost 2 years since I saw 7, but isn't it about the aftermath? Granted, there is a time skip, but it does put things in context: you don't just win the war because the big bad died. The Empire is not magically bound to the Emperor and now that he is dead it just disbands. The non-Force related leadership is still there, there are still people who believe in order and/or peace at all costs.
Sure, the rebellion is growing, perhaps going as far as naming itself a Republic again, but the Empire will still be there.
If anything, the Emperor's death formed a vacuum of power which, as 7 revealed, was gobbled up by others.
On December 14 2017 08:44 akatama wrote: It's been almost 2 years since I saw 7, but isn't it about the aftermath? Granted, there is a time skip, but it does put things in context: you don't just win the war because the big bad died. The Empire is not magically bound to the Emperor and now that he is dead it just disbands. The non-Force related leadership is still there, there are still people who believe in order and/or peace at all costs.
Sure, the rebellion is growing, perhaps going as far as naming itself a Republic again, but the Empire will still be there.
If anything, the Emperor's death formed a vacuum of power which, as 7 revealed, was gobbled up by others.
Aftermath story would be interesting, but they just skipped past that and jumped to the 1:1 replacement story.
Dropping in Snokes (or whatever his clowny name is) in from nowhere is basically prime example. Even the expository opening crawl doesn't bother mentioning him. Just some guy that was always there, but bigger and dark-lordier than Palpatine.
They shouldn't have erased all of the canon shit that happened after EP 6. Now there's a bunch of stuff that happened just "cause".
I mean the majority of people watching the show wouldn't have known the previous aftermath canon material, but they aren't the ones complaining about the movie
On December 14 2017 09:47 Plansix wrote: It is an entire galaxy. Did anyone really believe that there wasn't another evil force using dude just waiting to his shot?
No, but I can't believe that his story is so utterly boring that he exists solely to be a placeholder for dead Palpatine.
And yes, his story will probably be fleshed out in the next movies. But couldn't we have gotten to the new and interesting stuff before the old rehashed stuff?
On December 14 2017 06:34 WolfintheSheep wrote: A New Hope has the benefit of having zero context to build off of, and starts in media res. The setting is an entirely blank slate for whatever is required for the ongoing plot.
Force Awakens does have context, and is built entirely from an existing setting.
But really, they could've taken any direction they wanted and made it work, they just didn't. It feels like a reboot that was forced to be a sequel, more or less.
Echo'ing this. I'd prefer it if there was an episode 6.5 where they'd build it up, or at least did some new universe building, because it simply falls flat and feels cheap as fuck. ANH had the benefit of dropping you into a new, wondrous environment with all these strange, mystical, exotic things going on. TFA is set in the known universe, so we already know all the stuff, so there shouldn't be all that much exploring to do, but it's basically the exact same journey, trying to give us the exact same moments. It just doesn't work for me. It feels forced and insulting. 1->3 deals with how the strength of the empire was forged; 4->6 was the clash of good and evil and good winning; 7 resets to 4, because they don't have anything original to go. 1->3 is WAY more interesting story wise, even though they completely fucked it up, than TFA. Why not make a movie about the aftermath, with different parties doing different things, a free for all, since the central power is gone with ultimately the new empire or whatever the fuck it was regaining power in secret. You can even follow fucking Han Solo as the main protagonist here.
I haven't seen episode 8 yet, but that's a discussion I still can join.
I agree that 1-3 is more interesting story wise, but the resounding core of the backlash at episode 1 was that it "didn't feel like star wars". An era of strife in SW with shifting alliances is definitely up my alley, but isn't just complex/risky, it also requires a lot of things that people didn't like about the sequels (1-3), i.e. intrigue, politics, world-building and morally grey characters.
So I can totally see why Disney decided to just play it safe and basically reboot ANH with some other characters. Besides TFA imo is a good movie in the first half. Ofc there are obvious parallels, but there are also enough differences that it didn't feel too ripped off for me. Sadly the second half just copies ANH very closely. According to wikipedia the script wasn't finished by the original author but by Abrams and another Co-writer, which shows imo.
On December 14 2017 09:47 Plansix wrote: It is an entire galaxy. Did anyone really believe that there wasn't another evil force using dude just waiting to his shot?
No, but I can't believe that his story is so utterly boring that he exists solely to be a placeholder for dead Palpatine.
And yes, his story will probably be fleshed out in the next movies. But couldn't we have gotten to the new and interesting stuff before the old rehashed stuff?
The emperor was a throw away line in the first film. They can flesh snoke out down the line.
On December 14 2017 09:47 Plansix wrote: It is an entire galaxy. Did anyone really believe that there wasn't another evil force using dude just waiting to his shot?
No, but I can't believe that his story is so utterly boring that he exists solely to be a placeholder for dead Palpatine.
And yes, his story will probably be fleshed out in the next movies. But couldn't we have gotten to the new and interesting stuff before the old rehashed stuff?
The emperor was a throw away line in the first film. They can flesh snoke out down the line.
Watched the midnight screening of Episode VIII and actually loved it. I think it's way better than The Force Awakens, not gonna get into details...because...spoilers...
Also watched the movie last night with 7 ppl from work, unfortunately we were all disappointed/underwhelmed and pretty much all thought TFA was better.
The way they handled certain key plot points was disappointing, and the amount of deus ex machinas got pretty ridiculous too.
One positive point for me is they added more 'funny' moments, bit like Marvel, I enjoy that.
Seems like the other 2 ppl in here who already watched it thought it was better than TFA which is interesting, curious to read more opinons
Two of the largest questions I'm left with after TFA are: - Who is this Snoke guy and where does he come from? - Who are Rey's parents, is she related to Luke in some way?
I was hoping that TLJ would expand on these topics, but... Snoke is just killed off and we don't know shit about him, Rey's parents/heritage are apparently not important at all. Pretty disappointing
quite liked it, wasn't as hyped this time because I didn't like TFA that much, but man as soon as you see that Star Wars logo and the trumpets go off...
Some expected and some unexpected story lines/ends. Humor was great, battle scenes epic, fighting mediocre and I think it has the best 3D effects I have seen yet.
1. I don't know what the point is with the asian girl story arc, other from a marketing standpoint for the asia market, kinda like Donnie Yen in Rogue One 2. Surprised that Snoke died so early and they didn't kill Leia off post production as she won't be available for the next movie. 3. The big one: kinda worried that Kylo Ren can carry the big evil role alone after Snoke is dead, seeing that he is still conflicted (wimpy) and didn't receive any further training or something. Even was described as a disappointment to pretty much everyone in the movie (parents, his Sith master, his ex Jedi master, Rey) 4. They tried to give Luke a epic,bad ass send off, but I don't know.... probably comes back as a ghost anyway. 5. Wtf did they do to Yoda.... 6. and wtf is Rey crying like 80% of the time...
On December 15 2017 00:14 halomonian wrote: Is it just me or they are doing away with everything that is holy in the star wars universe, maybe to start anew in the future?
The trap of nostalgia is that it becomes impossible to tell new stories. That moving on to something new is important.
On December 15 2017 00:14 halomonian wrote: Is it just me or they are doing away with everything that is holy in the star wars universe, maybe to start anew in the future?
The trap of nostalgia is that it becomes impossible to tell new stories. That moving on to something new is important.
Still wouldn't hurt to have some badass lightsaber fights. I don't like those for nostalgia reasons, it's just cool.
On December 15 2017 00:14 halomonian wrote: Is it just me or they are doing away with everything that is holy in the star wars universe, maybe to start anew in the future?
The trap of nostalgia is that it becomes impossible to tell new stories. That moving on to something new is important.
Still wouldn't hurt to have some badass lightsaber fights. I don't like those for nostalgia reasons, it's just cool.
I like them too. But I haven’t seen the film yet. But I respect writing a script that isn’t trying to check boxes.
As usual with Star Wars there's a lot of hype and it's an enjoyable watch, but at the end I'm left with a feeling of "oh, so this was it?" There's just too much deus ex machina for my taste and we're left with a scenario that functionally isn't that different from what we left off with.
Kylo can't hide his inner turmoil yet he can deceive the master of the force they set up Snoke to be? It's not only a huge let down to see a character with such a build-up get killed that casually, it has also done the opposite of what it was supposed to do, namely make Kylo Ren seem like a believable and powerful villain. Kylo Ren comes across as an overpowered and unstable child while Snoke was demoted to a charlatan Sith with a degree of force control.
All-in all it has bothered me how these adolescent characters (Rey, Kylo) seem to randomly have powers that transcend jedi and sith prodigies that have trained their entire lives to wield the force.
Leia instead of imploding in outerspace just casually floats to the ship, really? I made audible sounds of disbelief when that happened.
Luke mind projection fighting Kylo Ren, like, that was a thing? Since when? Kylo can hide his killing intent from Snoke but he can't notice he's fighting a ghost? He's rightfully confused because it makes very little sense. Luke then does the *plop* I'm dead technique he picked up from his master, convenient way to get rid of a character you're done with after deconstructing his legacy to be a paranoid depressed and cynical manchild.
Yoda using lightning to set shit on fire? Not going to help out the resistance with our ghost Jedi elemental mastery but fuck this tree in particular! Makes me think the Jedi were really just pompous assholes that deserved to disappear.
Brienne the shiny stormtrooper, there wasn't any female bad guys so here's a decidedly non sexy antagonist because equality and shit, unfortunately her character is as flat as her boobs and no-one would have noticed if she was omitted from both movies.
Rose Tico? It annoys me that they seem to be putting in shallow characters just to steer clear of any SJW criticism. Asian girl falls in love with black guy on the drop of a hat, apparently the previous generations of star wars movies were deemed too white and now we're forcefully (hehe) putting in all possible combinations of gender and race because that's what equality is (there's also a ginger in charge, unfortunately he's incompetent).
When Luke steps out of the mine dramatically Poe *thinks* that he's stalling for time so they can get away? The whole story attempts to demystify the Jedi and the Sith yet Luke can't tell someone what his intentions are? Like, oops the rebels all ran out of the mine to make a dramatic last stand with me and now they're all dead and I'm just a ghost, awkward misunderstanding.
In the end what really happened? The unexplored master Sith and the master Jedi died, next movie: still rebels and jedi versus the evil empire and sith (the fact that Kylo doesn't identify as Sith doesn't change the fact he behaves like one).
Going to give my expert opinion. I'll put spoilers below. Overall I thought this movie was awful, 3/10, 4/10 at best. Maybe I grew out of star wars, but I thought it was pretty boring. When I watched TFA I enjoyed it, even though I was disappointed in the direction and reset. If I had the choice between watching The Phantom Menace or The Last Jedi, I would choose The Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace was my least favorite star wars movie until this one.
The first thing is there was way to much humor at awful times in the movie. A lot of the serious moments would throw in humor that just didn't fit the scene at all. The very beginning of the movie show cased this against the dreadnought. First he trolls the pilot One x-wing and somehow it single handily takes out all the cannons and then one bomber takes out the dreadnought. It was a lot of bombs but why were there no shields?
The subplots to this movie were down right boring. Finn and chick (don't remember her name) travel to some planet to get a hacker that can get them aboard the enemy ship to disable the light speed tracker. The only part I thought was funny/enjoyable was the little dude who put coins into BB-8 and then jumped in joy at all the money he had.
Leia in space. I actually laughed at how stupid that scene was. How did the writers think this was a good idea to have an explosion destroy the command room, Leia is floating in space and then wakes up, uses the force, flies back on board and survives. What the hell? This is one of, if not the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a star wars movie.
Luke and Rey was extremely disappointing. Luke is pretty much emo, cut himself off from the force and doesn't really train her? He tells her to reach out and explain what she feels with the force and that was the only thing he really taught her. He then dies at the end of the movie after doing a force projection. I was really hoping we'd get to see legitimate badass Luke at least once, but no. The Yoda scene also felt out of place.
Then there is Snoke. He is shown to be extremely powerful in the force, we know absolutely nothing about him and then he dies. Who was he? Where did he come from? How was he so powerful? No answers and now he's dead. I imagine we'll never know more about him.
Last thing I can think of is about the Republic itself. Three planets were destroyed (or was it 5? Can't remember off the top of my head) in the last movie, that can't be the whole Republic fleet. I know they said there were some forces in the outer rim, but now the Republic has been reduced to a handful of people? Just gone?
Easily the worst star wars movie to me and I really wish Disney had never bought Star Wars.
Well... it was convoluted. It also didn't exactly feel like Star Wars as I've come to know it. But I enjoyed it. I'll have to watch it again sometime to actually understand what happened there.
1. Criticizing Poe at the beginning for the bombing run. Yeah, he's a bit of a hothead, but he was completely right about that one. The dreadnought was about to destroy the flagship so what the fuck else should they have done? 2. The pointlessness of the Finn and Rose trip to the flagship. They got caught and just so conveniently the folk on the cruiser ended up doing the right thing. 3. And for that matter, the frequency of the goddamn "plot twists" through the movie. It's like the entire point of the movie is to set up a plot point then undo it. The Poe mutiny then it being reversed then turning out that that was for the best, then Finn's sacrifice that ended up not happening then Luke dying like a force ghost then not dying then actually dying, and I know I missed at least like five in between. It gets old after a while. 4. The thief ended up being a bit more one-off than I would have liked. 5. The so easily defeated Republic that has no resources whatsoever to fight back after they lost their homeworld. Do they not have any military whatsoever? 6. I really don't see how they're going to write their way out of Leia being part of the plot without recasting or CGI or something. They might have slightly written themselves into a corner here. 7. Rey is OP for inadequately explored reasons. 8. Biggest problem was just that the pace was just too rapid. Moved between scenes so quickly that it became oversaturated. Ep 7 had more of the charming character development scenes like Rey sitting in the downed walker, whereas this one was just a dogged pursuit from start to finish.
1. The way they handled Kylo Ren ditching the mask was well done. 2. The little critters were pretty neat. I thought they'd ruin things but they actually did well. 3. Everything on the rich people island was quite well-done. 4. Visually it was great and I did like the new craft designs. 5. Carrie Fisher did well overall in her role for this movie. I just wonder what will happen next. 6. They cleared that Finn-Rey not-sure-if-love-interest situation. That didn't work at all, and even if the new romance is slightly shoehorned it seems more real. 7. Kylo Ren with the stitched scar looked really good. I wish they kept it with the grey stitch mark but even without it he looks a damn sight more impressive than without it. 8. Despite its flaws it was well done. I lightly clapped as I left the theater, so at the very least it was a good watch.
The scene were the lady charges at lightspeed into the main cruiser. Actually it was interesting for a few reasons. One, it was done before in the Star Wars Rebels cartoon, which although gimmicky did have a few rather interesting plot points. It was done in a much more effectively dramatic manner though, so props there. But I also started considering the issue of whether or not that was something that could just be done over and over again on any major ship. And then I sort of remembered the Thrawn books, either the new one (named simply "Thrawn") or the old trilogy, in which the titular character talks about how huge overpowered superweapons present a target that cannot be ignored and they are always far more vulnerable than they seem... and actually, it sort of fits because that's exactly what went down here. I don't think it'll get any official acknowledgment but it is quite an interesting connection.
Overall: I liked it. I expect it to be polarizing. There was a lot there that someone might very much dislike.
While a step up from Episode 7 in all areas, Episode 8 suffers from many of the same problems, notably: weak character building, lots of recycled plot points, and disappointing plot advancement. Not a bad movie on its own, but when taken in context as step two of a new trilogy it feels weak and doesn't leave me optimistic for Ep. 9 It continues the Disney trend of providing awesome and gorgeous action sequences (arguably over the top in some areas) while also including plenty of lighthearted humorous moments. However it just doesn't have the same staying power of the original trilogy, and even lacks many of the outstanding individual character performances of the prequels, leaving it overall feeling like its predecessor, a safe bet catered to casual fan service.
On December 15 2017 14:28 blade55555 wrote: Going to give my expert opinion. I'll put spoilers below. Overall I thought this movie was awful, 3/10, 4/10 at best. Maybe I grew out of star wars, but I thought it was pretty boring. When I watched TFA I enjoyed it, even though I was disappointed in the direction and reset. If I had the choice between watching The Phantom Menace or The Last Jedi, I would choose The Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace was my least favorite star wars movie until this one.
The first thing is there was way to much humor at awful times in the movie. A lot of the serious moments would throw in humor that just didn't fit the scene at all. The very beginning of the movie show cased this against the dreadnought. First he trolls the pilot One x-wing and somehow it single handily takes out all the cannons and then one bomber takes out the dreadnought. It was a lot of bombs but why were there no shields?
The subplots to this movie were down right boring. Finn and chick (don't remember her name) travel to some planet to get a hacker that can get them aboard the enemy ship to disable the light speed tracker. The only part I thought was funny/enjoyable was the little dude who put coins into BB-8 and then jumped in joy at all the money he had.
Leia in space. I actually laughed at how stupid that scene was. How did the writers think this was a good idea to have an explosion destroy the command room, Leia is floating in space and then wakes up, uses the force, flies back on board and survives. What the hell? This is one of, if not the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a star wars movie.
Luke and Rey was extremely disappointing. Luke is pretty much emo, cut himself off from the force and doesn't really train her? He tells her to reach out and explain what she feels with the force and that was the only thing he really taught her. He then dies at the end of the movie after doing a force projection. I was really hoping we'd get to see legitimate badass Luke at least once, but no. The Yoda scene also felt out of place.
Then there is Snoke. He is shown to be extremely powerful in the force, we know absolutely nothing about him and then he dies. Who was he? Where did he come from? How was he so powerful? No answers and now he's dead. I imagine we'll never know more about him.
Last thing I can think of is about the Republic itself. Three planets were destroyed (or was it 5? Can't remember off the top of my head) in the last movie, that can't be the whole Republic fleet. I know they said there were some forces in the outer rim, but now the Republic has been reduced to a handful of people? Just gone?
Easily the worst star wars movie to me and I really wish Disney had never bought Star Wars.
Well hang on now. Disney did give us Rogue One, and Star Wars Rebels.
I agree with most of your points on Episode 8, but I think Disney is playing a longer game with the franchise than just their new trilogy.
On December 15 2017 14:42 LegalLord wrote: Well... it was convoluted. It also didn't exactly feel like Star Wars as I've come to know it. But I enjoyed it. I'll have to watch it again sometime to actually understand what happened there.
1. Criticizing Poe at the beginning for the bombing run. Yeah, he's a bit of a hothead, but he was completely right about that one. The dreadnought was about to destroy the flagship so what the fuck else should they have done? 2. The pointlessness of the Finn and Rose trip to the flagship. They got caught and just so conveniently the folk on the cruiser ended up doing the right thing. 3. And for that matter, the frequency of the goddamn "plot twists" through the movie. It's like the entire point of the movie is to set up a plot point then undo it. The Poe mutiny then it being reversed then turning out that that was for the best, then Finn's sacrifice that ended up not happening then Luke dying like a force ghost then not dying then actually dying, and I know I missed at least like five in between. It gets old after a while. 4. The thief ended up being a bit more one-off than I would have liked. 5. The so easily defeated Republic that has no resources whatsoever to fight back after they lost their homeworld. Do they not have any military whatsoever? 6. I really don't see how they're going to write their way out of Leia being part of the plot without recasting or CGI or something. They might have slightly written themselves into a corner here. 7. Rey is OP for inadequately explored reasons. 8. Biggest problem was just that the pace was just too rapid. Moved between scenes so quickly that it became oversaturated. Ep 7 had more of the charming character development scenes like Rey sitting in the downed walker, whereas this one was just a dogged pursuit from start to finish.
1. The way they handled Kylo Ren ditching the mask was well done. 2. The little critters were pretty neat. I thought they'd ruin things but they actually did well. 3. Everything on the rich people island was quite well-done. 4. Visually it was great and I did like the new craft designs. 5. Carrie Fisher did well overall in her role for this movie. I just wonder what will happen next. 6. They cleared that Finn-Rey not-sure-if-love-interest situation. That didn't work at all, and even if the new romance is slightly shoehorned it seems more real. 7. Kylo Ren with the stitched scar looked really good. I wish they kept it with the grey stitch mark but even without it he looks a damn sight more impressive than without it. 8. Despite its flaws it was well done. I lightly clapped as I left the theater, so at the very least it was a good watch.
The scene were the lady charges at lightspeed into the main cruiser. Actually it was interesting for a few reasons. One, it was done before in the Star Wars Rebels cartoon, which although gimmicky did have a few rather interesting plot points. It was done in a much more effectively dramatic manner though, so props there. But I also started considering the issue of whether or not that was something that could just be done over and over again on any major ship. And then I sort of remembered the Thrawn books, either the new one (named simply "Thrawn") or the old trilogy, in which the titular character talks about how huge overpowered superweapons present a target that cannot be ignored and they are always far more vulnerable than they seem... and actually, it sort of fits because that's exactly what went down here. I don't think it'll get any official acknowledgment but it is quite an interesting connection.
Overall: I liked it. I expect it to be polarizing. There was a lot there that someone might very much dislike.
rei is op cuz she was left alone when she was a kid and endured a very strong mindset and personality and happens that the force was strong on her,or maybe the force found someone that had the potential to put the balance,any case im convinced that the situations that faced rei made her very strong compared to Luke or Kylo,who had a family a place to live etc,is not for example the case of anakin that was an slave.
So do you mind to tell me why it is so hard for you to acept rei ? .d it is also a big galaxy im pretty sure we will find mb in the future creatures or just people capable to use the force.
On December 15 2017 14:28 blade55555 wrote: Going to give my expert opinion. I'll put spoilers below. Overall I thought this movie was awful, 3/10, 4/10 at best. Maybe I grew out of star wars, but I thought it was pretty boring. When I watched TFA I enjoyed it, even though I was disappointed in the direction and reset. If I had the choice between watching The Phantom Menace or The Last Jedi, I would choose The Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace was my least favorite star wars movie until this one.
The first thing is there was way to much humor at awful times in the movie. A lot of the serious moments would throw in humor that just didn't fit the scene at all. The very beginning of the movie show cased this against the dreadnought. First he trolls the pilot One x-wing and somehow it single handily takes out all the cannons and then one bomber takes out the dreadnought. It was a lot of bombs but why were there no shields?
The subplots to this movie were down right boring. Finn and chick (don't remember her name) travel to some planet to get a hacker that can get them aboard the enemy ship to disable the light speed tracker. The only part I thought was funny/enjoyable was the little dude who put coins into BB-8 and then jumped in joy at all the money he had.
Leia in space. I actually laughed at how stupid that scene was. How did the writers think this was a good idea to have an explosion destroy the command room, Leia is floating in space and then wakes up, uses the force, flies back on board and survives. What the hell? This is one of, if not the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a star wars movie.
Luke and Rey was extremely disappointing. Luke is pretty much emo, cut himself off from the force and doesn't really train her? He tells her to reach out and explain what she feels with the force and that was the only thing he really taught her. He then dies at the end of the movie after doing a force projection. I was really hoping we'd get to see legitimate badass Luke at least once, but no. The Yoda scene also felt out of place.
Then there is Snoke. He is shown to be extremely powerful in the force, we know absolutely nothing about him and then he dies. Who was he? Where did he come from? How was he so powerful? No answers and now he's dead. I imagine we'll never know more about him.
Last thing I can think of is about the Republic itself. Three planets were destroyed (or was it 5? Can't remember off the top of my head) in the last movie, that can't be the whole Republic fleet. I know they said there were some forces in the outer rim, but now the Republic has been reduced to a handful of people? Just gone?
Easily the worst star wars movie to me and I really wish Disney had never bought Star Wars.
Well hang on now. Disney did give us Rogue One, and Star Wars Rebels.
I agree with most of your points on Episode 8, but I think Disney is playing a longer game with the franchise than just their new trilogy.
Rogue one was great but is it worth the destruction of the EU story lines for the new terrible trilogy I would say probably not. Disney should have at least used the aftermath of the return of the jedi from the EU to give a base to their new trilogy.
If Disney went up to the Pellaeon-Gavrisom treaty and then started fresh creating a new big bad from the Unknown regions (seeing as thats where the first order comes from anyway) instead of the Yuuzhan Vong after say 15 years of peace with the empire to get roughly the right ages for the main characters. Then you have a starting point that makes sense, all the old trilogy characters still around, you keep the most loved parts of the EU (Thrawn, Mara Jade, Rogue Squadron etc) and you have a new generation of heroes in Jacen, Jaina, Anakin Solo and potentially Ben Skywalker.
Rogue One, IMO, is a bit oversold. It was a good standalone movie that I watched multiple times and enjoyed, but it had kind of mediocre throwaway characters that were actually thrown away. Rebels is a little kids show with too many feel-good cliches and otherwise unimpressive plots, and while it does have its moments it's mostly just a cartoon. None of that seems to be "Disney has a longer game in play." Well, of course the game is to sell stuff based on the franchise but it's not exactly a game of high-quality creations at any rate. The movies are really the best of it all.
But with regards to the EU, it kind of had to go. No one can tell too great of a story when they're constrained by a dependence on making sure that they also don't contradict any source material, and man did the EU get clunky and filled with utter crap once in a while. The Thrawn stories were the only ones I really missed, even though at the time I enjoyed quite a few EU creations. It needed to be done as a clean slate project, though; there was no other way to tell a reasonable new story.
On December 16 2017 01:35 LegalLord wrote: Rogue One, IMO, is a bit oversold. It was a good standalone movie that I watched multiple times and enjoyed, but it had kind of mediocre throwaway characters that were actually thrown away. Rebels is a little kids show with too many feel-good cliches and otherwise unimpressive plots, and while it does have its moments it's mostly just a cartoon. None of that seems to be "Disney has a longer game in play." Well, of course the game is to sell stuff based on the franchise but it's not exactly a game of high-quality creations at any rate. The movies are really the best of it all.
But with regards to the EU, it kind of had to go. No one can tell too great of a story when they're constrained by a dependence on making sure that they also don't contradict any source material, and man did the EU get clunky and filled with utter crap once in a while. The Thrawn stories were the only ones I really missed, even though at the time I enjoyed quite a few EU creations. It needed to be done as a clean slate project, though; there was no other way to tell a reasonable new story.
They could have stuck with the basic premises of the EU and take a George Lucas approach in terms of if anything is contradicted the film is always correct. The Yuuzhan Vong and the 365 trillion deaths they caused probably had to go but not everything especially as it seems Disney can't actually write a good star wars story they need a story to be built already like in Rogue One.
On December 15 2017 14:28 blade55555 wrote: Going to give my expert opinion. I'll put spoilers below. Overall I thought this movie was awful, 3/10, 4/10 at best. Maybe I grew out of star wars, but I thought it was pretty boring. When I watched TFA I enjoyed it, even though I was disappointed in the direction and reset. If I had the choice between watching The Phantom Menace or The Last Jedi, I would choose The Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace was my least favorite star wars movie until this one.
The first thing is there was way to much humor at awful times in the movie. A lot of the serious moments would throw in humor that just didn't fit the scene at all. The very beginning of the movie show cased this against the dreadnought. First he trolls the pilot One x-wing and somehow it single handily takes out all the cannons and then one bomber takes out the dreadnought. It was a lot of bombs but why were there no shields?
The subplots to this movie were down right boring. Finn and chick (don't remember her name) travel to some planet to get a hacker that can get them aboard the enemy ship to disable the light speed tracker. The only part I thought was funny/enjoyable was the little dude who put coins into BB-8 and then jumped in joy at all the money he had.
Leia in space. I actually laughed at how stupid that scene was. How did the writers think this was a good idea to have an explosion destroy the command room, Leia is floating in space and then wakes up, uses the force, flies back on board and survives. What the hell? This is one of, if not the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a star wars movie.
Luke and Rey was extremely disappointing. Luke is pretty much emo, cut himself off from the force and doesn't really train her? He tells her to reach out and explain what she feels with the force and that was the only thing he really taught her. He then dies at the end of the movie after doing a force projection. I was really hoping we'd get to see legitimate badass Luke at least once, but no. The Yoda scene also felt out of place.
Then there is Snoke. He is shown to be extremely powerful in the force, we know absolutely nothing about him and then he dies. Who was he? Where did he come from? How was he so powerful? No answers and now he's dead. I imagine we'll never know more about him.
Last thing I can think of is about the Republic itself. Three planets were destroyed (or was it 5? Can't remember off the top of my head) in the last movie, that can't be the whole Republic fleet. I know they said there were some forces in the outer rim, but now the Republic has been reduced to a handful of people? Just gone?
Easily the worst star wars movie to me and I really wish Disney had never bought Star Wars.
Well hang on now. Disney did give us Rogue One, and Star Wars Rebels.
I agree with most of your points on Episode 8, but I think Disney is playing a longer game with the franchise than just their new trilogy.
I liked Rogue One and Star Wars Rebels is pretty good, but I still wish Disney hadn't bought them. I'd still be getting my books, The Clone Wars would have had an actual ending and then moved on to another show with a bigger budget than what Disney has brought us so far.
I do believe Disney is funding a live action TV show and hopefully that turns out to be cool, but only time will tell on that one.
On December 15 2017 14:28 blade55555 wrote: Going to give my expert opinion. I'll put spoilers below. Overall I thought this movie was awful, 3/10, 4/10 at best. Maybe I grew out of star wars, but I thought it was pretty boring. When I watched TFA I enjoyed it, even though I was disappointed in the direction and reset. If I had the choice between watching The Phantom Menace or The Last Jedi, I would choose The Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace was my least favorite star wars movie until this one.
The first thing is there was way to much humor at awful times in the movie. A lot of the serious moments would throw in humor that just didn't fit the scene at all. The very beginning of the movie show cased this against the dreadnought. First he trolls the pilot One x-wing and somehow it single handily takes out all the cannons and then one bomber takes out the dreadnought. It was a lot of bombs but why were there no shields?
The subplots to this movie were down right boring. Finn and chick (don't remember her name) travel to some planet to get a hacker that can get them aboard the enemy ship to disable the light speed tracker. The only part I thought was funny/enjoyable was the little dude who put coins into BB-8 and then jumped in joy at all the money he had.
Leia in space. I actually laughed at how stupid that scene was. How did the writers think this was a good idea to have an explosion destroy the command room, Leia is floating in space and then wakes up, uses the force, flies back on board and survives. What the hell? This is one of, if not the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a star wars movie.
Luke and Rey was extremely disappointing. Luke is pretty much emo, cut himself off from the force and doesn't really train her? He tells her to reach out and explain what she feels with the force and that was the only thing he really taught her. He then dies at the end of the movie after doing a force projection. I was really hoping we'd get to see legitimate badass Luke at least once, but no. The Yoda scene also felt out of place.
Then there is Snoke. He is shown to be extremely powerful in the force, we know absolutely nothing about him and then he dies. Who was he? Where did he come from? How was he so powerful? No answers and now he's dead. I imagine we'll never know more about him.
Last thing I can think of is about the Republic itself. Three planets were destroyed (or was it 5? Can't remember off the top of my head) in the last movie, that can't be the whole Republic fleet. I know they said there were some forces in the outer rim, but now the Republic has been reduced to a handful of people? Just gone?
Easily the worst star wars movie to me and I really wish Disney had never bought Star Wars.
Well hang on now. Disney did give us Rogue One, and Star Wars Rebels.
I agree with most of your points on Episode 8, but I think Disney is playing a longer game with the franchise than just their new trilogy.
I liked Rogue One and Star Wars Rebels is pretty good, but I still wish Disney hadn't bought them. I'd still be getting my books, The Clone Wars would have had an actual ending and then moved on to another show with a bigger budget than what Disney has brought us so far.
I do believe Disney is funding a live action TV show and hopefully that turns out to be cool, but only time will tell on that one.
I have a bit of inside info. Their upcoming new show will be animated. No word that I've heard on a live action show in the works.
If Disney hadn’t bought Lucasfilms then I would have not watched a few new movies and that’s about it. Really, Star Wars didn’t need a “revival” but it’s not worse for the necromancy. And a few good things did come of it.
I personally didn’t hate this movie either. Some say it was ruined by too much Disney interference but really it’s mostly just a decent movie with problems. Like everything in the new Star Wars, of which people like something at the very least.
On December 15 2017 14:28 blade55555 wrote: Going to give my expert opinion. I'll put spoilers below. Overall I thought this movie was awful, 3/10, 4/10 at best. Maybe I grew out of star wars, but I thought it was pretty boring. When I watched TFA I enjoyed it, even though I was disappointed in the direction and reset. If I had the choice between watching The Phantom Menace or The Last Jedi, I would choose The Phantom Menace. The Phantom Menace was my least favorite star wars movie until this one.
The first thing is there was way to much humor at awful times in the movie. A lot of the serious moments would throw in humor that just didn't fit the scene at all. The very beginning of the movie show cased this against the dreadnought. First he trolls the pilot One x-wing and somehow it single handily takes out all the cannons and then one bomber takes out the dreadnought. It was a lot of bombs but why were there no shields?
The subplots to this movie were down right boring. Finn and chick (don't remember her name) travel to some planet to get a hacker that can get them aboard the enemy ship to disable the light speed tracker. The only part I thought was funny/enjoyable was the little dude who put coins into BB-8 and then jumped in joy at all the money he had.
Leia in space. I actually laughed at how stupid that scene was. How did the writers think this was a good idea to have an explosion destroy the command room, Leia is floating in space and then wakes up, uses the force, flies back on board and survives. What the hell? This is one of, if not the dumbest thing I have ever seen in a star wars movie.
Luke and Rey was extremely disappointing. Luke is pretty much emo, cut himself off from the force and doesn't really train her? He tells her to reach out and explain what she feels with the force and that was the only thing he really taught her. He then dies at the end of the movie after doing a force projection. I was really hoping we'd get to see legitimate badass Luke at least once, but no. The Yoda scene also felt out of place.
Then there is Snoke. He is shown to be extremely powerful in the force, we know absolutely nothing about him and then he dies. Who was he? Where did he come from? How was he so powerful? No answers and now he's dead. I imagine we'll never know more about him.
Last thing I can think of is about the Republic itself. Three planets were destroyed (or was it 5? Can't remember off the top of my head) in the last movie, that can't be the whole Republic fleet. I know they said there were some forces in the outer rim, but now the Republic has been reduced to a handful of people? Just gone?
Easily the worst star wars movie to me and I really wish Disney had never bought Star Wars.
Well hang on now. Disney did give us Rogue One, and Star Wars Rebels.
I agree with most of your points on Episode 8, but I think Disney is playing a longer game with the franchise than just their new trilogy.
I liked Rogue One and Star Wars Rebels is pretty good, but I still wish Disney hadn't bought them. I'd still be getting my books, The Clone Wars would have had an actual ending and then moved on to another show with a bigger budget than what Disney has brought us so far.
I do believe Disney is funding a live action TV show and hopefully that turns out to be cool, but only time will tell on that one.
I have a bit of inside info. Their upcoming new show will be animated. No word that I've heard on a live action show in the works.
Ah darn, I swore I read there was a live action one in the works, one day! Thanks for the info.
You people are a bunch of negative nancies. I really liked the movie. First impressions put it above RotJ, below Empire. And that means it's the second best SW movie so far.
The good: - Kylo Ren. I really enjoyed his coming of age, the whole conflict triangle between Ren, Rey and Luke, and how Snoke had actually set that up. - Poe Dameron. Was a rather throwaway ace pilot in TFA, but I really like the role they found for him. Sure, taking out a dreadnought almost singlehandedly was a bit dumb, but then again, this is the universe that has people build Death Stars with a fatal flaw that just needs a well piloted X-Wing to get to. - General production. A++ for all the choreography, dogfights and absolutely stunning visuals. - The resolution of the two main fan theories. Sure, I am a bit disappointed that there isn't some mystery Palpatine or Kenobi relative who dumped Rey on Jakku, or that Snoke isn't Darth Plagueis the Resurrected or something. But in the long run this is a better and more coherent plot point: there aren't some royal families in the universe who are strong in the force. It can come out in anybody, including some nobody from nobody parents on some nowhere planet, as in Rey, or in some opportunistic two-bit Palpatine wannabe who was just as easily disposed of as he arose.
The bad: - Phasma. Was a dumb character in TFA. Is still a dumb character. Waste of a good actress. - Leia surviving. The movie felt very much like a changing of the guard. Luke dieing was beautiful. But why is Leia still around? Seems like they painted themselves into a corner where they need to CGI her in Ep 9, which just seems pointless. - BB8 is frigging OP as fuck. It's R2 in prequel levels and there was no need for it. He's an astromech. He can open doors and copilot spaceships. WTF with taking out 6 prison guards and hijacking an AT ST?!
A lot of people just have really high expectations tbh. I doubt it's truly bad, although I've seen more negative than positive opinions so far. With that being said only the diehards have seen it already and it's easy to piss them off
I'm going tomorrow night so I'll find out for myself. My expectations are kind of in the middle.
On December 16 2017 08:05 TheEmulator wrote: A lot of people just have really high expectations tbh. I doubt it's truly bad, although I've seen more negative than positive opinions so far. With that being said only the diehards have seen it already and it's easy to piss them off
I'm going tomorrow night so I'll find out for myself. My expectations are kind of in the middle.
this is the reason i dont check the walking dead thread,is just people complaining and complaining,i ask myself how can they dont get tired of that,u re basically watching a tvshow to feel bad and complain it over and over on the forums lol,and this thread is a bit of that,i think sometimes is better to avoid reviews forums etc.i loved the movie will watch it again tomorrow.
I don't see how so many people are OK with the fact + Show Spoiler +
that these movies are complete recycled rip offs of the original trilogy.
Say what you want about the prequels, but they at least told a different story from the original trilogy and their characters at least felt like they had actual personality instead of just being replacement cut outs for original characters.
Am I a negative nancy for hating the fact that these movies are basically remakes?
On December 16 2017 08:05 TheEmulator wrote: A lot of people just have really high expectations tbh. I doubt it's truly bad, although I've seen more negative than positive opinions so far. With that being said only the diehards have seen it already and it's easy to piss them off
I'm going tomorrow night so I'll find out for myself. My expectations are kind of in the middle.
I feel like opinions are split right down the middle, just as with TFA. I think if you hated TFA, you're going to hate TLJ for all the same reasons, and if you liked TFA, you're going to like TLJ.
I loved TFA, and I thought TLJ was equally amazing. It had flaws, but over all, it was visually dazzling, told an entertaining yarn and a breakneck pace, and deftly wove in action, humor, and a surprising amount of narrative heft.
On December 16 2017 10:05 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't see how so many people are OK with the fact + Show Spoiler +
that these movies are complete recycled rip offs of the original trilogy.
Say what you want about the prequels, but they at least told a different story from the original trilogy and their characters at least felt like they had actual personality instead of just being replacement cut outs for original characters.
Am I a negative nancy for hating the fact that these movies are basically remakes?
I think this is a very weak criticism for this movie. The middle chapter was dark in the original trilogy, and it was dark in this one. That's pretty much where the similarity ends, unless having a ground battle involving AT-ATs magically makes them the same movie.
Telling a different story doesn't interest me at all when the story is dumb and convoluted and the movies are bad. I think the new trilogy characters are 100% better than anything in the prequels, with only the possible exception of Maul.
None of the prequel characters had any personality. They all woodenly walked around and delivered monotone diatribes to each other. Nobody in any prequel showed anything that could be considered a human emotion.
Yeah, I also can't agree with the criticism that the movie is derivative because it really wasn't. The problems I had I outlined already. Though the "Leia in space" scene is just completely and utterly indefensible and whoever made it needs to get smacked for it. I mean I liked the movie overall but holy fuck that scene was so very bad and cringey and the new generation's version of the sand speech in Ep 2.
On December 16 2017 08:05 TheEmulator wrote: A lot of people just have really high expectations tbh. I doubt it's truly bad, although I've seen more negative than positive opinions so far. With that being said only the diehards have seen it already and it's easy to piss them off
I'm going tomorrow night so I'll find out for myself. My expectations are kind of in the middle.
I feel like opinions are split right down the middle, just as with TFA. I think if you hated TFA, you're going to hate TLJ for all the same reasons, and if you liked TFA, you're going to like TLJ.
I loved TFA, and I thought TLJ was equally amazing. It had flaws, but over all, it was visually dazzling, told an entertaining yarn and a breakneck pace, and deftly wove in action, humor, and a surprising amount of narrative heft.
On December 16 2017 10:05 Vindicare605 wrote: I don't see how so many people are OK with the fact + Show Spoiler +
that these movies are complete recycled rip offs of the original trilogy.
Say what you want about the prequels, but they at least told a different story from the original trilogy and their characters at least felt like they had actual personality instead of just being replacement cut outs for original characters.
Am I a negative nancy for hating the fact that these movies are basically remakes?
I think this is a very weak criticism for this movie. The middle chapter was dark in the original trilogy, and it was dark in this one. That's pretty much where the similarity ends, unless having a ground battle involving AT-ATs magically makes them the same movie.
Telling a different story doesn't interest me at all when the story is dumb and convoluted and the movies are bad. I think the new trilogy characters are 100% better than anything in the prequels, with only the possible exception of Maul.
None of the prequel characters had any personality. They all woodenly walked around and delivered monotone diatribes to each other. Nobody in any prequel showed anything that could be considered a human emotion.
Just look at how the confrontation with Snoke actually went down. Rey arrives willingly in front of Kylo, she is taken in cuffs to see Snoke sitting on a throne, Snoke releases her bindings and takes her light saber and puts it down LITERALLY ON THE SAME ARM REST AS THE EMPEROR, Snoke does a bunch of monologuing about how awesome of a bad guy he is while showing her how his awesome weapon is destroying the Rebel/Resistance fleet, he shows Rey how powerful with the Force he is and how under his control Kylo Ren is, and just at the apex of his triumph, Kylo kills him.
That entire scene is literally copy pasted from Return of the Jedi, the only thing different about it is the lack of force lightning and the presence of the Imperial Guards. Except instead of feeling like the dramatic climax that has been anticipated and built up to for 2 movies like Return was, it was meant to be a sudden shock moment that solidified Kylo as a chief bad guy, except because it was literally the same scene as Return, that shock moment was replaced with a "WTF really Disney?" moment.
Yeah, I also can't agree with the criticism that the movie is derivative because it really wasn't. The problems I had I outlined already. Though the "Leia in space" scene is just completely and utterly indefensible and whoever made it needs to get smacked for it. I mean I liked the movie overall but holy fuck that scene was so very bad and cringey and the new generation's version of the sand speech in Ep 2.
dropping bombs with gravity in space and counselor lady doesn't tell everyone their completely practical plan to stay alive for...no reason. And despite the fact that Finn and Rose aren't in on the practical plan from the get-go they decide to tell sketchy guy exact details for...no reason, since if their insane plan succeeds the practical one was pointless.
Or the scene where they haven't figured out how to use autopilot in the future so counselor lady has to sudoku. Or the lack of the scene where the Empire just calls in reinforcements to hem off the rebel ship's escape route. Or the Empire not just having multiple tracking ships, let alone not just sending off an FTL transport for something that can outrun the rebels. Or the rebels not using their own FTL transports that were stolen by Finn and Rose to accomplish anything. Or the bizarre animal rights subplot (admittedly might have been bolstered in my awareness by watching it with a vegan). Or or or or.
On December 16 2017 08:05 TheEmulator wrote: A lot of people just have really high expectations tbh. I doubt it's truly bad, although I've seen more negative than positive opinions so far. With that being said only the diehards have seen it already and it's easy to piss them off
I'm going tomorrow night so I'll find out for myself. My expectations are kind of in the middle.
this is the reason i dont check the walking dead thread,is just people complaining and complaining,i ask myself how can they dont get tired of that,u re basically watching a tvshow to feel bad and complain it over and over on the forums lol,and this thread is a bit of that,i think sometimes is better to avoid reviews forums etc.i loved the movie will watch it again tomorrow.
Dont worry people are no complaining about TWD anymore, they just dont watch it at all.
According to screenrant and some other news outlets, JJ Abrams just pitched the story for Episode 9. However, the way I see it, isn't that something they should have planned when they decided to create a new trilogy? Wouldn't have cared if it was just a script though
I think it might make some sense to adapt it to the audience response while having a reasonable simple outline of the direction it's heading in. For example, in the prequels the utterly unserviceable response to Jar Jar required significant rework in the Ep 2/3 plots.
On December 16 2017 14:57 LegalLord wrote: I think it might make some sense to adapt it to the audience response while having a reasonable simple outline of the direction it's heading in. For example, in the prequels the utterly unserviceable response to Jar Jar required significant rework in the Ep 2/3 plots.
the bad guys never learned from their mistakes about glaring weaknesses in giant death weapons
apparently most people can breathe in space now. or something.
phasma has the only set of armor worth a damn. and even then it's one damn. she will probably return, again.
luke is a fucking troll
snoke is a joke
was this the first ever use of hyperspace jumping into another object, or was it just an asspull? because what the fuck is the purpose of building a giant ship if you can just kamikaze it. also, you had two other ships.
leia not dying was kind of a surprise. they probably thought blowing her into space and 'surprise, she's not dead!' was super clever, but god it was cringey.
this is all not to say i disliked the movie, but there were a lot of "okay, really?" moments.
was done before in Star Wars: Rebels in a similar way with a high-ranking commander sacrificing themselves to save the rest of the rebels. Kind of done for the same effect here albeit with much bigger craft. Actually I saw it as a good commentary on the weakness of having a target so big it can't be ignored, and then allowing a ship to catch you off guard like that. They should've seen it coming for sure.
My biggest issue, and that which first made my eyebrows twinge was the shields on the rebel fleet holding until they ran out of fuel. Perhaps they also rehashed the originally established fact that fuel and deflector shield strength are separate things?.
Ultimately I feel the pacing was was off, and that despite the twists and turns there wasn't all that much that went on. The tone in a few paces was quite off-putting too. It wasn't brilliant but wasn't god awful.
Ugh, sleeped on this movie... and now, I'm sad I'm watching it again today instead of TFA. So many things annoy me to no end this movie, including the people who try to defend it by saying that we are just haters and we can't be pleased. Yeah, I guess The Room is a great movie too, The Room fans are just hard to please. Sod off!
Anyway, the current no1 thing that makes me want to headbutt a wall until either the wall or my skull gives up: + Show Spoiler +
Why did Rose save Finn at the end???????? Why?????? Someone hold me. Please. Just hold me before I go insane.
In Rogue One a couple dozen people sacrifice themselves for the advancement of the Rebel Alliance. Rogue One is a story which established the Rebels as "good terrorists". It showed that if you are vastly outnumbered, then you have to pull your weight and you only get one chance. The Empire could just blindly send Stardestroyers everywhere in the galaxy, while the Rebels had 1 or 2 plans at best and they were all make it or break it. And if you have to die for making it, then you will. Because that is what being a Rebel means.
So jump ahead a year to see how drunk and coked - I have no other explanation for this - Rian Johnson says "you know what? fuck it! The Rebel Alliance is not about achieving a greater good by all means necessary. The Rebel Alliance is about.... are you ready guys? Okay, here it comes: it's about genitals!!! Rose likes dicks, Finn likes vaginas, boom, that's what being a Rebel means! Damn, I'm Rian Johnson, give me another Star Wars trilogy, I have many other cool ideas!!!"
Fuck you Rian Johnson. In that scene Rose was a saboteur who wanted to save his "love" by sacrificing everyone else, even though if the others die they would be captured too, so even what does not make sense does not actually make sense, which is some next level stupidity.
But hey, here's an idea: How about Leia Force Something's Finn's vehicle out of the way, though as it would have been a bit against her character (as she likes stubborn bravery), she could've lifted Finn out of it at the last moment. I mean goddamn, if you make her fly in space, then a simple Force Pull is nothing extraordinary.
Ahhhhhhhhhh, I am so disappointed. I really liked Jar Jar so I assumed I can eat anything the franchise throws at me, and then I suffocated on a token Asian in the role of token love interest and token plot-diversion. Not the actress' fault though, I think she was fine, though I watched the dubbed version, so could only judge by her metacommunication.
My biggest issue, and that which first made my eyebrows twinge was the shields on the rebel fleet holding until they ran out of fuel. Perhaps they also rehashed the originally established fact that fuel and deflector shield strength are separate things?.
Ultimately I feel the pacing was was off, and that despite the twists and turns there wasn't all that much that went on. The tone in a few paces was quite off-putting too. It wasn't brilliant but wasn't god awful.
I believe the rational given was that since their ships were faster they could keep at a distance where the barrage was weakened enough to be dealt with by the shields.
This was for me the worst star wars film of all time. I was so hyped and it was actually just awful from everywhere.
1. Rey's acting is just abysmal, i mean she cannot act, i guess there is a reason why Finn has actually had jobs and decent films outside of Star Wars and Rey only got in that other worst film of the year candidate in the Midnight Express thing.
Started ok i must say, but then as soon as we rekindled with Luke and Rey it went down hill so fast. She had literally 0 training which was the part im sure alot of people were looking forward too like me. Then all of a sudden Rey and Kylo Ren start communicating with the force between eachother, like they are master jedis who can feel eachother? That part of the story was so weak and poor. Whole film Kylo Ren is dubbed at being weak and then he literally 1 shots the ultimate villian in the film we thought? Finn the only good actor probably alongside Kylo Ren in fairness had a poor story too, it was good though because he can act but it felt like a waste of such a good character. Also poor Carrie Fischer got no send off at all, she just survived so in the next movie what is going to happen there?
Rey is trying to learn the force, next minute telepathetically communicating with Kylo Ren. Then Kylo Ren the whole film pretty much did nothing, Snoke was also so much dominate on him in the opening few scenes that within the hour of the film he somehow managed to block his mind and kill him lol madness. Power levels mad, i still don't know if Rey and Kylo Ren are at all strong or not or if just everyone is weak as hell xd
What the hell was the Yoda part all about, why did they use a copy paste Yoda from 1970s lol surely CGI can improve him from looking like he came in from 1970s xd might as well just bring all the old characters back if you can't imagine anymore. I mean they were at the home of the Jedi where it all began, they could have imagined up a new super master that comes to Luke to advise him how to deal with Rey etc. Nope, better reuse a poor Yoda and make him look horrible!
TL;DR = Bad acting, Story makes no sense as usual, Scripting bad. Can't wait for Episode 10 so we can kill this arc and see a new story.
Oh, the birds from the island, was it me or the CGI on those actually god awful?
On December 16 2017 20:41 Pandemona wrote: This was for me the worst star wars film of all time. I was so hyped and it was actually just awful from everywhere.
1. Rey's acting is just abysmal, i mean she cannot act, i guess there is a reason why Finn has actually had jobs and decent films outside of Star Wars and Rey only got in that other worst film of the year candidate in the Midnight Express thing.
Started ok i must say, but then as soon as we rekindled with Luke and Rey it went down hill so fast. She had literally 0 training which was the part im sure alot of people were looking forward too like me. Then all of a sudden Rey and Kylo Ren start communicating with the force between eachother, like they are master jedis who can feel eachother? That part of the story was so weak and poor. Whole film Kylo Ren is dubbed at being weak and then he literally 1 shots the ultimate villian in the film we thought? Finn the only good actor probably alongside Kylo Ren in fairness had a poor story too, it was good though because he can act but it felt like a waste of such a good character. Also poor Carrie Fischer got no send off at all, she just survived so in the next movie what is going to happen there?
Rey is trying to learn the force, next minute telepathetically communicating with Kylo Ren. Then Kylo Ren the whole film pretty much did nothing, Snoke was also so much dominate on him in the opening few scenes that within the hour of the film he somehow managed to block his mind and kill him lol madness. Power levels mad, i still don't know if Rey and Kylo Ren are at all strong or not or if just everyone is weak as hell xd
What the hell was the Yoda part all about, why did they use a copy paste Yoda from 1970s lol surely CGI can improve him from looking like he came in from 1970s xd might as well just bring all the old characters back if you can't imagine anymore. I mean they were at the home of the Jedi where it all began, they could have imagined up a new super master that comes to Luke to advise him how to deal with Rey etc. Nope, better reuse a poor Yoda and make him look horrible!
TL;DR = Bad acting, Story makes no sense as usual, Scripting bad. Can't wait for Episode 10 so we can kill this arc and see a new story.
Oh, the birds from the island, was it me or the CGI on those actually god awful?
On December 16 2017 20:41 Pandemona wrote: This was for me the worst star wars film of all time. I was so hyped and it was actually just awful from everywhere.
1. Rey's acting is just abysmal, i mean she cannot act, i guess there is a reason why Finn has actually had jobs and decent films outside of Star Wars and Rey only got in that other worst film of the year candidate in the Midnight Express thing.
Started ok i must say, but then as soon as we rekindled with Luke and Rey it went down hill so fast. She had literally 0 training which was the part im sure alot of people were looking forward too like me. Then all of a sudden Rey and Kylo Ren start communicating with the force between eachother, like they are master jedis who can feel eachother? That part of the story was so weak and poor. Whole film Kylo Ren is dubbed at being weak and then he literally 1 shots the ultimate villian in the film we thought? Finn the only good actor probably alongside Kylo Ren in fairness had a poor story too, it was good though because he can act but it felt like a waste of such a good character. Also poor Carrie Fischer got no send off at all, she just survived so in the next movie what is going to happen there?
Rey is trying to learn the force, next minute telepathetically communicating with Kylo Ren. Then Kylo Ren the whole film pretty much did nothing, Snoke was also so much dominate on him in the opening few scenes that within the hour of the film he somehow managed to block his mind and kill him lol madness. Power levels mad, i still don't know if Rey and Kylo Ren are at all strong or not or if just everyone is weak as hell xd
What the hell was the Yoda part all about, why did they use a copy paste Yoda from 1970s lol surely CGI can improve him from looking like he came in from 1970s xd might as well just bring all the old characters back if you can't imagine anymore. I mean they were at the home of the Jedi where it all began, they could have imagined up a new super master that comes to Luke to advise him how to deal with Rey etc. Nope, better reuse a poor Yoda and make him look horrible!
TL;DR = Bad acting, Story makes no sense as usual, Scripting bad. Can't wait for Episode 10 so we can kill this arc and see a new story.
Oh, the birds from the island, was it me or the CGI on those actually god awful?
Luke got wasted, main characters are still "unknown", it's impossible to like or hate any key character without knowing backstory. Snoke was just a furniture these two episodes.
Him and those asian girl took a lot of screen time for no reason, I'm not a racists but it feels like such scenario is for educational reasons...Hey look, different skin colors and they still love each other! Make love not war! Love saved ya! Woo!
Like we never knew it's possible...Oh these social tendencies :D
At least visual were fine with small exceptions.
My hope is that Obi-Wan solo movie won't be such a mess, as for ep9 it would be hard to remain high expectations.
I liked it. The only thing that really bugged me was how easily Snoke died. While watching I though "Yes, this is the villain we need. Powerful. Calm." And than he died like a scrub. So disappointing.
On December 16 2017 20:41 Pandemona wrote: This was for me the worst star wars film of all time. I was so hyped and it was actually just awful from everywhere.
1. Rey's acting is just abysmal, i mean she cannot act, i guess there is a reason why Finn has actually had jobs and decent films outside of Star Wars and Rey only got in that other worst film of the year candidate in the Midnight Express thing.
But it is as bad as Mark Hamill was in the OT, that's the real question
On December 16 2017 20:41 Pandemona wrote: This was for me the worst star wars film of all time. I was so hyped and it was actually just awful from everywhere.
1. Rey's acting is just abysmal, i mean she cannot act, i guess there is a reason why Finn has actually had jobs and decent films outside of Star Wars and Rey only got in that other worst film of the year candidate in the Midnight Express thing.
But it is as bad as Mark Hamill was in the OT, that's the real question
I would say Hamil is ahead in fairness, he wasn't good in the old triology the worst actor in it a by a mile. But Rey is the worst in the new triology and in the last film was just robotic at best, awful acting and i don't normally notice. Just could not connect with her at all.
Also the reviews of this film are so wrong, please do not read any of the reviews out there from press people. Go find a forum if you are debating whether to pay for this film now or wait for stream/it's on regular TV!
I liked it. The only thing that really bugged me was how easily Snoke died. While watching I though "Yes, this is the villain we need. Powerful. Calm." And than he died like a scrub. So disappointing.
I was half expecting the ginger guy to reveal that the Snoke form was just a puppet he was manipulating with the force all along, to be honest. Or all the other red guards to look just like Snoke and be his puppets (we never saw their faces). He's clearly powerful enough to drag a man along the ground from another room entirely, why not be manipulating a puppet body? Would have been a neat twist. But he seems deader than a doornail.
Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
On December 17 2017 01:04 Pandemona wrote: I would say Hamil is ahead in fairness, he wasn't good in the old triology the worst actor in it a by a mile. But Rey is the worst in the new triology and in the last film was just robotic at best, awful acting and i don't normally notice. Just could not connect with her at all.
Also the reviews of this film are so wrong, please do not read any of the reviews out there from press people. Go find a forum if you are debating whether to pay for this film now or wait for stream/it's on regular TV!
She isn't great but still doing better than a lot of the OT people imo. That's by far the biggest weakness of the OT; the acting oftentimes feels like B movies. In the new trilogy Adam Driver and Oscar Isaac are excellent actors and the others still do a decent job.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Yeah i agree with that, Finn due to the actor playing him makes the character work, where as Rey, shit chracter and awful actress it seems.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
Just watched it again. Ugh... this is legit bad. I don't want them to give this man (Rian Johnson) a trilogy. He might work well with a second writer and director, but he completely lost the plot with this one.
On December 17 2017 04:17 Korlin wrote: I'm surprised by all the negativity. There are some things that I didn't like, but overall was quite an enjoyable movie to watch.
An enjoyable movie to watch with some popcorn, but a terrible movie to look forward for its final installment. J.J. set something in motion and Rian spent half the movie destroying it. Now we are left with 1 movie to end this trilogy, and it is a mess.
After watching Empire for the first time, I thought my head will explode because i had soooo many questions and I was sooo excited about everything. A million and one plotlines were left open. After TLJ, I'm like meh, just give me that Obi-Wan movie.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
You don't just tell everyone a plan, there can always be a mole in your ranks. Poe didn't come across as someone the higher ups should tell their plans either at that point. I get it, oftentimes conflict arises because people don't talk, but in this case it's understandable
On December 17 2017 04:17 Korlin wrote: I'm surprised by all the negativity. There are some things that I didn't like, but overall was quite an enjoyable movie to watch.
An enjoyable movie to watch with some popcorn, but a terrible movie to look forward for its final installment. J.J. set something in motion and Rian spent half the movie destroying it. Now we are left with 1 movie to end this trilogy, and it is a mess.
After watching Empire for the first time, I thought my head will explode because i had soooo many questions and I was sooo excited about everything. A million and one plotlines were left open. After TLJ, I'm like meh, just give me that Obi-Wan movie.
Empire is still the best Starwars movie, but this one wasn't bad at all. I think people are really nostalgic when they think about the OT in comparison and TLJ gets mainly bashed because it destroys head canon.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
Bothered me too. Why not tell people in commanding positions what your plans are? The girl who helped Poe didn't even know the plan ffs and she was on the bridge.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
You don't just tell everyone a plan, there can always be a mole in your ranks. Poe didn't come across as someone the higher ups should tell their plans either at that point. I get it, oftentimes conflict arises because people don't talk, but in this case it's understandable
would be doomed if there were ANY moles on the ship anyway, since everyone would be evacuated and since they're being tracked instantly the mole could tell the Empire instantly. Under those circumstances you tell everyone the plan so you don't have a psychotic hot-shot pilot ruin it. And when you DO tell the pilot the plan, you don't omit the part about having a secret base on hand that you're trying to reach.
On December 17 2017 04:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: Empire is still the best Starwars movie, but this one wasn't bad at all. I think people are really nostalgic when they think about the OT in comparison and TLJ gets mainly bashed because it destroys head canon.
I compared the two movies in terms of how well they followed up from their previous episode, and how well they set the scene up for their next episode. Empire built upon ANH while TLJ wanted nothing to do with TFA. Rian pulled some brave stuff off, but that was not one of them, that was just stupid.
There is no reason to be excited for episode IX other than the fact that it will be a Star Wars movie.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
You don't just tell everyone a plan, there can always be a mole in your ranks. Poe didn't come across as someone the higher ups should tell their plans either at that point. I get it, oftentimes conflict arises because people don't talk, but in this case it's understandable
would be doomed if there were ANY moles on the ship anyway, since everyone would be evacuated and since they're being tracked instantly the mole could tell the Empire instantly. Under those circumstances you tell everyone the plan so you don't have a psychotic hot-shot pilot ruin it. And when you DO tell the pilot the plan, you don't omit the part about having a secret base on hand that you're trying to reach.
I still think it's better to not tell absolutely everyone the details of the plan. All they need to know is to evacuate the ship. Poe would have been high enough in order to know most likely, but he and the general lady were on bad terms already so it's understandable. I can see why it might look annoying, as i said it's the typical "pls talk" situation but not the worst i have seen
On December 17 2017 04:55 The_Red_Viper wrote: Empire is still the best Starwars movie, but this one wasn't bad at all. I think people are really nostalgic when they think about the OT in comparison and TLJ gets mainly bashed because it destroys head canon.
I compared the two movies in terms of how well they followed up from their previous episode, and how well they set the scene up for their next episode. Empire built upon ANH while TLJ wanted nothing to do with TFA. Rian pulled some brave stuff off, but that was not one of them, that was just stupid.
There is no reason to be excited for episode IX other than the fact that it will be a Star Wars movie.
Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is
That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far?
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
The same happened with projection Luke that just walked out of the mine only for Poe to surmise Luke's intention was to sacrifice himself for the rebellion to get away. They try so hard to set up the dramatic scene that they skimp on realism and just give the right character the right idea at the right time. The Rebellion didn't even know there was another exit to the cave and they only assumed because Luke was there somehow. There might be an uncharted natural exit? Why? If Luke opened a path why wouldn't he just say he opened a path? Rey is somehow conveniently there waiting at the uncharted exit to save the day with the force powers she arguably shouldn't possess. How did she get there? How did she know exactly where to go?
The writers seem to have tried to make things unpredictable by doing the opposite of what people where expecting: - Luke accepts lightsaber and trains Rey in the force---> Luke refuses lightsaber and Rey - Epic Snoke fight ----> Snoke dies like a chump - Poe saves rebellion by going against his orders ---> Poe fucks up - Leia dies in space ---> Leia miraculously doesn't die - Finn saves the day ---> Finn doesn't save the day (twice).
The movie needs to make us believe in the movie's reality, but TLJ seems to expect us to believe things because it is IN the movie.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
The same happened with projection Luke that just walked out of the mine only for Poe to surmise Luke's intention was to sacrifice himself for the rebellion to get away. They try so hard to set up the dramatic scene that they skimp on realism and just give the right character the right idea at the right time. The Rebellion didn't even know there was another exit to the cave and they only assumed because Luke was there somehow. There might be an uncharted natural exit? Why? If Luke opened a path why wouldn't he just say he opened a path? Rey is somehow conveniently there waiting at the uncharted exit to save the day with the force powers she arguably shouldn't possess. How did she get there? How did she know exactly where to go?
The movie needs to make us believe in the movie's reality, but TLJ seems to expect us to believe things because it is IN the movie.
I would agree with the Luke scenario, that was actually a bit silly. At the same time things along those lines happen in every Star Wars movie. I don't see why it's a dealbreaker here and not in the OT for example. About the natural exit, pretty sure the falcon sees the wolf creatures escape there
On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is
That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far?
Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved.
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found. - The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless. - Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!! - Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it. - Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers? - The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie? - Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience. - Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta. - "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3." - "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone." - BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
On December 17 2017 01:21 LegalLord wrote: Rey / Ridley is actually a fairly mediocre character. Nothing specific I want to point to, but I just can’t really get behind her as the star of the show. Finn feels a little out of place in the universe and yet his character totally works because he is played by an actor that makes the best of it all. Poe is alright too, even though + Show Spoiler +
the plot turned him into a bit of a bitch this time around.
Oh well.
Normally I don’t complain about this stuff in movies, but this movie tried way too hard to push women as the authority figures in this film. It was completely distracting in light of the lack of a true heroic male lead. It also doesn’t help that Driver absolutely dominates Ridley in the gravitas arena.
Honestly, the scene for that that kind of made that most evident to me was + Show Spoiler +
when Poe led a mutiny. He was infinitely more charismatic and likable than the female leadership and I'd be surprised if anyone was cheering for him to fail. Getting screwed over like that at the end just wasn't really good storytelling. He came off far more as someone who understood the need for well-timed risks than as someone who was just a hothead.
the leader lady didn't just TELL EVERYONE HER PLAN. If she had, Poe would have realized his own plan was stupid to the extreme (in fact, without his plan her plan would have gone off without a hitch, since they wouldn't have had Mr. McBetray tattle about the shuttles he shouldn't have been told about anyway).
The same happened with projection Luke that just walked out of the mine only for Poe to surmise Luke's intention was to sacrifice himself for the rebellion to get away. They try so hard to set up the dramatic scene that they skimp on realism and just give the right character the right idea at the right time. The Rebellion didn't even know there was another exit to the cave and they only assumed because Luke was there somehow. There might be an uncharted natural exit? Why? If Luke opened a path why wouldn't he just say he opened a path? Rey is somehow conveniently there waiting at the uncharted exit to save the day with the force powers she arguably shouldn't possess. How did she get there? How did she know exactly where to go?
The movie needs to make us believe in the movie's reality, but TLJ seems to expect us to believe things because it is IN the movie.
I would agree with the Luke scenario, that was actually a bit silly. At the same time things along those lines happen in every Star Wars movie. I don't see why it's a dealbreaker here and not in the OT for example. About the natural exit, pretty sure the falcon sees the wolf creatures escape there
I haven't had this issue in other Star Wars movies. I feel the credibility of this movie hinged heavily on the mystery behind Snoke and the anchors of Leia and Luke Skywalker. With Snoke and Luke out of the picture there's only Leia who lost all credibility by not dying in space. It is trying to make me believe Rey and Kylo Ren are the epitome of power in the universe right now. I think in most movies there was a looming confrontation or mystery that distracted me from these kind of details, but I'm really not looking forward to anything in the next movie.
On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is
That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far?
Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved.
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found. - The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless. - Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!! - Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it. - Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers? - The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie? - Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience. - Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta. - "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3." - "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone." - BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
Some of your complaints are solid, others are kinda riduculous (which is why you tried to be funny) I don't wanna go into detail now, later when more people have seen the movie it should be more fun to discuss these things. I will just say that TLJ is basically on the same lvl as TFA. A solid 7/10
On December 17 2017 05:54 sashkata wrote: Can we make a poll and add it to the OP somehow? Something like which did you like better TFA or TLJ? Just curious.
I definitely liked TLJ more. TFA was fun and all, but it's just such a re-thread of New Hope. Really liked Luke in this one.
Ok
Poll: Which Do You Think Is Best
Star Wars - The Force Awakens (43)
62%
Star Wars - The Last Jedi (26)
38%
69 total votes
Your vote: Which Do You Think Is Best
(Vote): Star Wars - The Force Awakens (Vote): Star Wars - The Last Jedi
On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is
That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far?
Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved.
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found. - The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless. - Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!! - Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it. - Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers? - The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie? - Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience. - Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta. - "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3." - "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone." - BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
Your summarizing is on point for me! You could pretty much say after watching the film Rian did not watch TFA lol
TFA wins for me on character development. Both had their advantages but ultimately TFA established a working set of main characters whereas TLJ does not.
The movie didn't grip me at all. The entire Ray/Ben stuff was top notch (it was really interesting to see how their relationship evolves) but the rest of the movie was pretty much some boring crap I couldn't give a damn about.
In my opinion they have introduced way too many characters and there just isn't enough screen time for them all to get any good plot lines and all suffer from it in the end.
On December 17 2017 07:06 xDaunt wrote: Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke?
Yes, his interactions with Rey are the best part of the movie (+ Kylo)
There is nothing wrong with his interactions with Rey in a vacuum, but his character is a complete bastardizarion of what he was.
He changed, that's what people do over the years. There still was a lot of old Luke in him i think. Overall what they did with Luke was fantastic imo, way better than what fans would have wanted.
On December 17 2017 07:06 xDaunt wrote: Does anyone like what TLJ did to Luke?
Yes, his interactions with Rey are the best part of the movie (+ Kylo)
There is nothing wrong with his interactions with Rey in a vacuum, but his character is a complete bastardizarion of what he was.
He changed, that's what people do over the years. There still was a lot of old Luke in him i think. Overall what they did with Luke was fantastic imo, way better than what fans would have wanted.
I think that you're going to find yourself in the minority on this one. The movie is getting hammered in the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.
I think Luke in this movie was an interesting character that deserved a place in the Star Wars universe. But he definitely didn't seem much like the original trilogy Luke; for all the faults of the old EU I think EU!Luke did a better job with that. Which might have been since we skipped seeing him for 30 (?) years. But that didn't really stop Legacy of the Force Luke from still feeling like Luke when I read it while skipping everything post Young Jedi Knights.
I have my own review and my own video, but Angry Joe's video really highlights most of my opinions in a better and more organized way, well with the exception of my complaint that the movie is unoriginal.
On December 17 2017 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: Pretty sure ESB wasn't that well liked when it first came out either exactly because it was so different. At least that's what one reads a lot, i wasn't there when it came out. I disagree that TLJ didn't follow up on TFA. The only thing which actually bothers me is
That this new trilogy feels like it all happened in a few days. That was the case for TFA and it's still true in TLJ. Is the story actually taking place in like 7 days so far?
Well, I only saw the special edition as a kid, and the only feeling I can still remember is the emptiness in my little heart after I realized that the movie has actually ended. At that time it was crazy for me that a movie can end soooo unresolved.
- So Luke left behind a puzzle to be found if needed, but doesn't actually want to be found. - The finish to Kylo's training is to execute Rey? At the end of TFA, Snoke implied that he has methods to strengthen the yet amateur Kylo, but killing Rey would not have accomplished anything. At the very least he should have battled her. Absolutely senseless. - Rey was supposed to be trained by Luke. He refused it. Then he agreed to it, but did not actually train her much. Luke dies, Rey is the last Jedi. This is so many continuity and general fuckup in one that it deserves at least 3 paragraphs on its own. In the end, no one was fucking trained at all in this movie!! - Rey was given to an old dude to take care of her. TLJ said fuck that, she was a nobody, which makes no sense, because why would that guy take care of some hobos' daughter?! Yes, J.J. can retcon this plothole, but for fucks' sake, at least adress it. - Knights of Ren? Anyone remembers? - The visions of Rey and how she saw Kylo and his Knights? Cloud City? The oh so important lightsaber NO ONE GAVE A FUCK ABOUT in this movie? - Snoke. I couldn't care less if he lived or died, but TFA introduced him as the main villain, so how about addressing it? I don't want Palpatine-levels of backstory, but Jesus Christ, that was a huge middle finger for the audience. - Finn and Rey were shaping up to be a love interest, but Rian forgot to watch that movie, so now he introduced another one for him. I'm sad we won't get a third director for the last movie, so that Finn could earn the trifecta. - "Rian, we've got a Finn versus Cpt. Phasma storyline that we need to resolve." "I don't want to" "... Rian, J.J. wrote it into TFA, we really need to address it." "No." "Can I at least ask my Mexican cleaning lady to write a 5 minutes long scene between them?" "You get 3." - "Rian, what should we do with Finn overall, who was called as an expendable token black character, but was actually really good in TFA?" "Pair him up with an actual token minority character, who serves no purpose and keep him away from my main plot as long as possible." "Okay, but what should we do with him when he gets back?" "I don't know. Frankly, I don't understand his purpose in this new trilogy and J.J. doesn't answer his phone." - BB-8 was turned into a god. He was written as the new R2D2, but now he can gag and tie 4 guards with guns, and get to an AT-ST and murder everyone.
The only things Rian Johnson actually followed up from TFA were Rey's, Kylo's and Poe's character. They more or less continued on their path, but the lack of meaningful training on the island - where the majority of Rey's screen time were - made Rey really dumb. Which is sad, because she was like a lightning ball in TFA, but apparently it was more important in TLJ to be funny, than to actually cement her as a foundation as the last Jedi.
Edit: and these are just the continuity flaws. Don't even get me started on Leia being able to fly back to her ship but unable to move rocks.
Some of your complaints are solid, others are kinda riduculous (which is why you tried to be funny) I don't wanna go into detail now, later when more people have seen the movie it should be more fun to discuss these things. I will just say that TLJ is basically on the same lvl as TFA. A solid 7/10
I presented some points jokingly, but I was serious about them. Obviously not all of them are equally important, but they all show Rian's complete lack of understanding of TFA.
And I'm so tired of people praising him for his bravery in this episode, when a.) he wasn't THAT brave and b.) look at what it cost us!! He selfishly threw everything away to pump up his own part in this trilogy and let episode IX rot in a dumpster!
By the end of ESB we learned that Vader is Luke's father, Luke was disarmed (he-he-he, some TLJ level of humor for you folks), Han was betrayed and frozen, the Empire looked stronger and unbeatable as ever, and we had no idea how anyone will beat Vader, not to mention the mysterious Emperor!
we have the unresolved conflict of an untrained Jedi (is she a Jedi yet btw?) and an untrained Sith (is he a Si-- oh fuck this movie...) and that is all. Am I hyped about the inevitable battle of two confused kids? No, I am not. Love the characters, but without father figures (Luke, Snoke, Yoda, Palpatine, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Windu...) or an interesting plot being left in the air I just can't for the life of me be hyped up.
Extremely selfish writing, and I think the way J.J. will solve it is that he will basically write the script for two following movies and will tell the tl;dr of the first one in the crawling text of Episode IX. You can't save this shit any other way.
On December 17 2017 07:43 Vindicare605 wrote: I have my own review and my own video, but Angry Joe's video really highlights most of my opinions in a better and more organized way, well with the exception of my complaint that the movie is unoriginal.
Honestly after sitting on it for two days I'm leaning fairly strongly towards the "not so great" camp. I was kind of the opposite on TFA, in that it sort of improved with further consideration. I'm starting to see it as mostly something akin to an Avengers movie, which is flashy and fun to watch, possibly multiple times, but you can't help but notice how much it shits on the continuity of the movies that come before and on the most compelling characters' personalities.
I liked the movie, especially how subversive it was towards fan expectations for certain characters. I do understand the criticism though. Some of the other plot-lines weren't handled as elegantly as the Luke-Rey-Kylo plot-line, and the movie did feel long though simultaneously frantic at times. I guess if people put more weight into those plot weaknesses and didn't enjoy the subversiveness of some of the other elements, then that dislike is understandable. I didn't think some of those plot flaws were as unreasonable, though the movie did jump the shark in a few scenes.
It may not be the most elegant or flawless film, but I thought TLJ had some really cool ideas that I'm interested to see Disney pursue to differentiate the new canon from the old Legends EU.
I especially liked what they did with Luke, and can understand how fans would hate that approach. He doesn't become a badass that swings around a laser sword and uses superpowers to single-handedly take down an entire army or empire. They teased that he might, but he didn't, and they even made himself tease the very idea. He goes down not in violence but in peace, becoming a martyr whose legend will impact the galaxy than any more physical deeds from his lone self.
He'll likely show up again as a ghost, but I like the idea that the Force is so much more than Jedi vs Sith fighting each other with lightsabers and powers for generations. It's very spiritual and about peace, emotion, and balance, and I can see this era of the franchise try to move into that direction for its resolution. I wish TLJ could've explored that aspect more, but it's already packed with plot-lines.
On December 17 2017 08:15 LegalLord wrote: Honestly after sitting on it for two days I'm leaning fairly strongly towards the "not so great" camp. I was kind of the opposite on TFA, in that it sort of improved with further consideration. I'm starting to see it as mostly something akin to an Avengers movie, which is flashy and fun to watch, possibly multiple times, but you can't help but notice how much it shits on the continuity of the movies that come before and on the most compelling characters' personalities.
I'm reserving judgment until I see the movie again, which is why I haven't given a real review yet. Like I said earlier in the thread, both TFA and Rogue One took a few viewings for me to appreciate. However, there are some things about TLJ that I really do not like. In addition to the bizarre re-write of Luke, there are so many wasted characters that I really am having a hard time figuring out what Rian Johnson was thinking. The only characters whose progression really makes sense are Kylo Ren and Finn. And Finn's storyline is a shitshow and waste of film. Lastly, and while I usually am inclined to give great leeway to artists to put whatever politics that they want into their work, I felt like I was really beaten over the head with some SJW bullshit in this film. From the forced and artificial female power dynamics, to the emasculation of the male heroes, to the token inclusion of the fat asian chick -- there was just too much here to ignore, particularly when all of this was being thrown into a beloved franchise. The worst thing that Disney has done to the franchise since taking it over is forcing moral ambiguity into everything. That's the exact opposite of what Star Wars is fundamentally about.
On December 17 2017 01:04 Pandemona wrote: I would say Hamil is ahead in fairness, he wasn't good in the old triology the worst actor in it a by a mile. But Rey is the worst in the new triology and in the last film was just robotic at best, awful acting and i don't normally notice. Just could not connect with her at all.
Also the reviews of this film are so wrong, please do not read any of the reviews out there from press people. Go find a forum if you are debating whether to pay for this film now or wait for stream/it's on regular TV!
I went to see the movie with 3 friends. Altho we were kinda dissapointed the way they handled some chars. Overall we quite liked the movie. I cant stand Rey's british accent tho. Just doesnt suit the star wars universe to sound like ur from uk.
I would rather watch the prequels all after each other then watch this pile of garbage again. It does more damage to star wars as a property then If people took the Holiday special seriously and as an in cannon movie. Its not that its simply illogical it has made foundation choices that were worse then what they could have done. Actors are given set up and then wasted or are just killed off for no real gain to the story. Entire scenes aren't dark they're just poorly lit. There is no one that can explain what is even going on in the universe to any reasonable degree. The Milk scene, Minorities must be kept separate from the whites. Mutineers can be forgiven and are "dangerous" which is apparently a positive trait now. the First Order are just lazy incompetents and kylo isn't anything special.
Luke projects himself and something from the falcon across the galaxy and then poofs into the force. Apparently the jedi are from a tree and yoda destroys the jedi order? Leia becomes a literal fucking wizard and super cheats death for no reason and no positive impact on the plot for the rest of the movie.
I want to go on for 30 minutes about the ending of the movie but It would decent into rambling nonsense faster then this post did.
Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
On December 17 2017 09:20 TheTenthDoc wrote: One point I definitely missed some others might have as well about the future of the Jedi:
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
I mean that subplot was so worthless. Fin is getting rolled down to the brig. They arrive at the brig and do their dance of hatching the plot to stop the interwarp scanning. DJ happens to be in the brig because he was one of the people rose stunned earlier trying to bail like finn. The timer gets eliminated because the fuel needed to escape is put in the transports so they will be able to make it all the way to the secret base in time. Everything in the movie happens normally and nothing changes. Leia is caught in the debris instead of killed when the shield stops atmo from escaping allowing the rebels to get back on the bridge to repair in and use the ship more. She doesn't become a literal space wizard and nothing in the story changes. Ghost Yoda doesn't say much he lightnings the tree but responds when luke tries to save the books that rey stole them on her way out. Luke smiles and the two watch the tree burn while talking about why the tree is a thing. Plot is better we fill in a couple holes and it makes the ending scene no less impactful but allows people to see them and smile instead of be confused if they are what they think they are.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.
And do you think Rey is adequate enough to do any of that? What this movie needed was an unconventional training from Luke. He did not believe in the way Jedi used to train their Padawans so he could have been this grumpy, arrogant Jedi Master, who teaches Rey not black or white, but somewhere in between. I mean, the movie tried to go that way, but shied away from it. Rey should have been the - not literal - child of Luke, Kylo and Han. Luke represented wisdom, but had no hope. Kylo represented hope, but he was terribly misguided by others and he was afraid. And Han was the embodiment of a practical man, who, in the end, still chose family over his assured safety.
It would have formed Rey into a very interesting grey character (chaotic good or something), who would no doubt fail in many things (most likely in trying to convert Kylo), but she would represent the Good we really need in this trilogy.
But instead they dropped the ball with Luke, and instead of meaningful lessons (both spiritually and physically), he only gave Rey some /r/getmotivated shit.
Obi-Wan had his master killed, and his best friend, his young Padawan turned out to be Vader, which he considered his personal failure. Luke saw the selfless sacrifice of Obi-Wan, he believed in father till the very end (which was a stupid, but human thing to do), and he too suffered when he tried to raise new Jedi. Rey had none of that; she doesn't understand what it means to be a Jedi (or a Sith for that matter), or the burden of bearing the Force. She heard snippets, she felt that Luke was killed by the suns and the clouds and that is all.
Rey was royally fucked by the writers in this episode. I furiously defended her piloting, Force and lightsaber skills after TFA, I tried to explain to every single person why they are being extremely unfair with her, and just wait till episode VIII, where her true power will be unleashed. Turns out nothing got unleashed, and her character development was put to a halt.
For comparison's sake, Kylo was expanded by a lot. He became a fully fleshed out character and I am extremely interested where goes from here. Well, would be, because by killing Snoke, they left him no other plot to be involved in other than kill the rest of the Resistance aka those 15 people or so. This movie could have gave us a cliffhanger, like Kylo planning to murder every strong force user because he has self-esteem issues and he is too afraid that he will be overtaken, or Kylo wanting to chase his past (Han, Leia, Luke, possibly even Chewie) in one way or another, or.. or... anything man, anything.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.
And do you think Rey is adequate enough to do any of that? What this movie needed was an unconventional training from Luke. He did not believe in the way Jedi used to train their Padawans so he could have been this grumpy, arrogant Jedi Master, who teaches Rey not black or white, but somewhere in between. I mean, the movie tried to go that way, but shied away from it. Rey should have been the - not literal - child of Luke, Kylo and Han. Luke represented wisdom, but had no hope. Kylo represented hope, but he was terribly misguided by others and he was afraid. And Han was the embodiment of a practical man, who, in the end, still chose family over his assured safety.
It would have formed Rey into a very interesting grey character (chaotic good or something), who would no doubt fail in many things (most likely in trying to convert Kylo), but she would represent the Good we really need in this trilogy.
But instead they dropped the ball with Luke, and instead of meaningful lessons (both spiritually and physically), he only gave Rey some /r/getmotivated shit.
Obi-Wan had his master killed, and his best friend, his young Padawan turned out to be Vader, which he considered his personal failure. Luke saw the selfless sacrifice of Obi-Wan, he believed in father till the very end (which was a stupid, but human thing to do), and he too suffered when he tried to raise new Jedi. Rey had none of that; she doesn't understand what it means to be a Jedi (or a Sith for that matter), or the burden of bearing the Force. She heard snippets, she felt that Luke was killed by the suns and the clouds and that is all.
Rey was royally fucked by the writers in this episode. I furiously defended her piloting, Force and lightsaber skills after TFA, I tried to explain to every single person why they are being extremely unfair with her, and just wait till episode VIII, where her true power will be unleashed. Turns out nothing got unleashed, and her character development was put to a halt.
For comparison's sake, Kylo was expanded by a lot. He became a fully fleshed out character and I am extremely interested where goes from here. Well, would be, because by killing Snoke, they left him no other plot to be involved in other than kill the rest of the Resistance aka those 15 people or so. This movie could have gave us a cliffhanger, like Kylo planning to murder every strong force user because he has self-esteem issues and he is too afraid that he will be overtaken, or Kylo wanting to chase his past (Han, Leia, Luke, possibly even Chewie) in one way or another, or.. or... anything man, anything.
I don't think Rey is currently adequate as a mentor, and I do agree that the execution of those ideas had flaws. I think Luke purposely wasn't going to give her a thorough training, and though she had a lot of raw talent and power and could fight, wisdom she did not have. There were moments where it almost seemed like she was flirting with elements of the dark side, though they were fleeting and not fleshed out. Rey has room to grow despite not getting much development in this film, and she still has a long way to go from fighter to teacher unless Disney decides to Mary Sue that up too.
I still think the story of the Jedi is compelling at the moment. Luke tried to bring them back the old fashioned way, but that failed. Now we have two flawed individuals, Rey and Kylo, at the helm of the new generation, unknown as to where it will go. It's room for something different from the old EU, which is interesting to me. I assume there will be a bigger time skip and room for more character development in the next film, and Kylo may have a hard time keeping hold over the galaxy when resistance springs up beyond those 15 people.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!
Yoda pointed out Luke's hypocrisy, that he never even read them. Which was a good scene, I really liked it, but it made no sense that Rey has them now. First of all, you won't learn how to cook by reading half a dozen cookbooks. Then keep in mind, Luke was a harsh critic of the Jedi antics and how they did many stuff badly (I guess he had time to watch the prequels there), so what good does a bunch of antiquated book will do for Rey and the future of the Force users?
I am absolutely flabbergasted how people are preoccupied by a flying Leia which - if you reaaaaallly think about it - kinda makes sense, even if it looks silly, but no one worries about the future of this story. Many people are sucking off Rian for being brave with Rey's parents, killing Snoke and basically pulling a tabula rasa, but they forget that it's like burning bridges. It looks amazing, but then the flame dies out and you are left with ashes with nowhere to go.
Is there a secret Jedi sect somewhere which can do something useful with those books? No. Is there some mighty Sith lord out there to hunt/pursue Kylo? No. Is there ANY meaningful question left hanging? No.
Mark my words and screenshot this: J.J. will have to pull things out of his ass, and people will jump at his throat for introducing brand new, mysterious things in the last episode, while Godemperor Rian Johnson was so brave and unorthodox to do away with those!
I don't blame casual watchers for this oversight, because they care about one thing: did they enjoy TLJ? Yes or no and they move on. But if you are just slightly a fan who actually cares about this franchise, it is slo glaringly obvious that this very much watchable movie was actually a trainwreck story-wise.
And to make another jab at Rian: not only he forgot to watch TFA, but he also missed an important quote from the OT: "do or do not, there is no try." You either make a heavy movie to swallow with lots of shockers and scenes which will be discussed even 50 years from now, or you make a feelgood, by-the-book movie like TFA or RotS. There is no middle-ground. You can't burn people alive and show a goofy robot ball bouncing and screetching around. You can't copy half your movie from previous SW episodes and hope that people will only talk about the other half, which is actually innovative. You can't promote a movie as one of the darkest in the franchise, when in the end you direct a scene where the POWER OF LOVE AFTER A SHITTY TINDER DATE is more important than the entire existance of the Resistance. The same Resistance which were shoved down our throat in the very last scene, implying that you can never get rid of it - unless you are in love.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Luke is probably gonna stick around as a Force ghost, so I don't think Rey and future Jedi are completely alone. My takeaway from his arc is that perhaps the old, traditional ways of the Jedi aren't optimal. It's explained the new canon that he went around collecting Jedi artifacts and knowledge, and he presumably continued to do so while training the new Jedi Order. Yet, all that was futile when his new Order failed in ways that paralleled how the old Order failed. I think what he and Disney are going for are for the new Jedi to be less rigid and more spiritual and balanced. How they execute this idea still remains to be fleshed out, but it could be an interesting change from the near constant Jedi vs Sith conflict that continued on in the old Legends EU.
And do you think Rey is adequate enough to do any of that? What this movie needed was an unconventional training from Luke. He did not believe in the way Jedi used to train their Padawans so he could have been this grumpy, arrogant Jedi Master, who teaches Rey not black or white, but somewhere in between. I mean, the movie tried to go that way, but shied away from it. Rey should have been the - not literal - child of Luke, Kylo and Han. Luke represented wisdom, but had no hope. Kylo represented hope, but he was terribly misguided by others and he was afraid. And Han was the embodiment of a practical man, who, in the end, still chose family over his assured safety.
It would have formed Rey into a very interesting grey character (chaotic good or something), who would no doubt fail in many things (most likely in trying to convert Kylo), but she would represent the Good we really need in this trilogy.
But instead they dropped the ball with Luke, and instead of meaningful lessons (both spiritually and physically), he only gave Rey some /r/getmotivated shit.
Obi-Wan had his master killed, and his best friend, his young Padawan turned out to be Vader, which he considered his personal failure. Luke saw the selfless sacrifice of Obi-Wan, he believed in father till the very end (which was a stupid, but human thing to do), and he too suffered when he tried to raise new Jedi. Rey had none of that; she doesn't understand what it means to be a Jedi (or a Sith for that matter), or the burden of bearing the Force. She heard snippets, she felt that Luke was killed by the suns and the clouds and that is all.
Rey was royally fucked by the writers in this episode. I furiously defended her piloting, Force and lightsaber skills after TFA, I tried to explain to every single person why they are being extremely unfair with her, and just wait till episode VIII, where her true power will be unleashed. Turns out nothing got unleashed, and her character development was put to a halt.
For comparison's sake, Kylo was expanded by a lot. He became a fully fleshed out character and I am extremely interested where goes from here. Well, would be, because by killing Snoke, they left him no other plot to be involved in other than kill the rest of the Resistance aka those 15 people or so. This movie could have gave us a cliffhanger, like Kylo planning to murder every strong force user because he has self-esteem issues and he is too afraid that he will be overtaken, or Kylo wanting to chase his past (Han, Leia, Luke, possibly even Chewie) in one way or another, or.. or... anything man, anything.
I don't think Rey is currently adequate as a mentor, and I do agree that the execution of those ideas had flaws. I think Luke purposely wasn't going to give her a thorough training, and though she had a lot of raw talent and power and could fight, wisdom she did not have. There were moments where it almost seemed like she was flirting with elements of the dark side, though they were fleeting and not fleshed out. Rey has room to grow despite not getting much development in this film, and she still has a long way to go from fighter to teacher unless Disney decides to Mary Sue that up too.
I still think the story of the Jedi is compelling at the moment. Luke tried to bring them back the old fashioned way, but that failed. Now we have two flawed individuals, Rey and Kylo, at the helm of the new generation, unknown as to where it will go. It's room for something different from the old EU, which is interesting to me. I assume there will be a bigger time skip and room for more character development in the next film, and Kylo may have a hard time keeping hold over the galaxy when resistance springs up beyond those 15 people.
You know, if this movie would have ended by Kylo and Rey forging an alliance and making plans to train Force users, but not as Jedi or Sith, just simple training, while they have enemies out there (either Leia and the resistance if Rey stays with Kylo, or Snoke and the First Order if Kylo stays with Rey). Or you know what? Kill off Snoke for good! Let's try a Jedi-Sith alliance, where they try to merge the best from each side! Will it work? No, but the answer to the question "why can't it work?" would make for an interesting last episode.
Though we would still need some kind of opponent... but hey, the writer's job to figure it out, right?
I added spoiler tags because eveyrone before me did but I wonder what anyone who has not watched the movie yet is looking for in this thread or if they have any hope of not reading spoilers at this point.
Bah I'm really disappointed at it. Such a disappointment! I can't stand Kylo Ren as a villain, Snokes' death and the fact that Luke gave Rey basically no training at all is really annoying. It's unreal that they wasted the scene of the first contact between Luke and Rey with a stupid joke with Luke throwing the lightsaber out. When they showed the X-wing underwater I thought we might see some training but we got not at all. It doesn't make any sense that Rey is strong, there is no build up to her character, there is also no build up or improvement for Kylo. He is just a very emotional villain it seems. Meh tbh I hate, I hope they can some how fix it in the last movie.
Bah I'm really disappointed at it. Such a disappointment! I can't stand Kylo Ren as a villain, Snokes' death and the fact that Luke gave Rey basically no training at all is really annoying. It's unreal that they wasted the scene of the first contact between Luke and Rey with a stupid joke with Luke throwing the lightsaber out. When they showed the X-wing underwater I thought we might see some training but we got not at all. It doesn't make any sense that Rey is strong, there is no build up to her character, there is also no build up or improvement for Kylo. He is just a very emotional villain it seems. Meh tbh I hate, I hope they can some how fix it in the last movie
.
You might want to use spoiler tag there buddy; not everyone saw it yet. :D
Just because you intentionally shit all over fan theories doesn't mean your movie is a good movie. The plot is still a mess, the characters are still undeveloped, there are continuity/consistency problems EVERYWHERE in the movie, and no one still wants to talk about how much of the movie is blatantly copy pasted from Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.
I'm so sick of this argument. Ok I get it, people like seeing fan theories cut to shreds, but that's just about ALL this movie did. It failed to tell a story, it just spent 2.5 hours ripping up the old stories.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!
I believe Yoda said "there is nothing in those books she does not already know" or "hasn't already taken with her" so in true literal dick Jedi fashion he was lying to Luke since he knew she had taken the books already. He never said they were worthless per se.
On December 17 2017 09:27 thePunGun wrote: Compared to the pile of .....that was Rogue One, The Last Jedi is a masterpiece. RO is a plot hole driven catastrophe and probably the main reason I can actually appreciate TLJ fot what it is. A SW movie, that for example added some substance and explanation to "the force", other than ....midi-chlorians. *ugh* (I'm feelin sick just by typing midi... chlor...*uaaaaaghhh*) + Show Spoiler +
Force projections aka sith phantasms finally made it to the big screen and they even kept the significant sacrifice it takes to actually perform this ritual. One either has to become one with the force in the process or will have to sacrifice someone else and use their force essence to manifest the phantasm somewhere else in the galaxy. Once the projection/phantasm is destroyed, so is the life form who provided the force energy. Even though the SW EU is no longer canon, they didn't change this (awesome) ritual. I guess that's one of the reasons why I love this movie
Also I doubt we've seen the last of Luke or Snoke. Luke will obviously return as a force ghost and Snoke is most likely actually Darth Plagueis and can create new life (He probably even has 7 horcruxes hidden across the galaxy )
the books for a split second on a shelf on the falcon
This is my problem right here: basically for IX to be interesting, they need to pull some Bobby Ewing and make every dramatic moment in VIII insignificant.
Rey stole the books. So what? A kid, whose knowledge about the Jedi and the Sith can be summed up with "Force means balance and Luke doesn't consider himself a worthy legend" will rebuild or build a new Jedi order? BASED ON WHAT?!?! It's like forming Christianity number 2 after you talked with the pope for an hour, but 50 minutes were spent by the pope wallowing in self-pity so you did not actually learn much
Yes, the idea of Rey being the pioneer of a new Jedi order which tries to learn from its predecessor's mistakes is awesome! Too bad that instead of Rey getting meaningful lessons from Luke and life, we had to watch two characters - whom the director clearly hated - riding some spacehorses in a story which eventually lead to nothing. Yes, that subplot told us a story about people with good intentions eventually doing more harm. But the first 15 minutes of the movie was literally about this but with different character and in space!!!!
Yeah here, here! Also didn't Yoda say the books are meaningless to Luke? I swear i heard that more than Rey has taken them away. Anyway like you said how is Rey going to learn through books and stuff with no mentoring or guidance. Even if Luke comes back as a ghost why would he suddenly teach her then now he is gone? Makes no sense. You can understand why Mark Hamill was pissed at this film and what they did to Luke lets put it that way!
I believe Yoda said "there is nothing in those books she does not already know" or "hasn't already taken with her" so in true literal dick Jedi fashion he was lying to Luke since he knew she had taken the books already. He never said they were worthless per se.
Paraphrasing here but Yoda also pointed out to Luke that none of those books were impossible to put down while reading - which Luke never even did -, implying that they are either bad or boring. But he's main point was that Luke should not worry about them, but not because Rey has them.
Basically Yoda got to be the well fed goat while still keeping the Lettuce. Showed the unimportance of those books to Luke while also keeping them intact.
In my first viewing, for me it was an OK movie, 6/10. After my second viewing It got even better, solid 8/10 for me, probably one of the best SW movies.
Okay, solid 5/10 for me, only for some visuals and the whole brand
It feels weird, like I'm missing Jar Jar.. :D and "Phantom Menace" script was a masterpiece in comparison to these one. At least it was with strong viallains like Darth Maul and lots of combats. And much less plot holes overall.
Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.
On December 18 2017 06:20 Xarles wrote: New interview with Rian Johnson
Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.
On December 18 2017 06:20 Xarles wrote: New interview with Rian Johnson
Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.
What in gods name gave him this idea? Yeah let's just throw out everything the first movie was building to, all the questions we were left with and totally re-write everything! Ugh this movie tilts me so hard. I would rather it didn't exist and we were left hanging like with half-life 3.
what made this a brilliant star wars film was that it decided to break all of the rules and all of the themes in order to come back full circle to those same themes after acknowledging the flaws.
the hero of the story is not the child of anyone important; the reveal of rey's parentage is not of a weapons designer, a senator, a hero, a jedi or a sith lord. it's of worthless nameless scum. the hero is a nobody who came from nowhere.
the brave rebel pilot leads constant sorties against the odds and makes daring missions to destroy the latest and biggest threats. and yet the constant X wing explosions and ships being destroyed this time are not just stock battle scenes, they were valuable assets, invaluable and irreplacable.
there's a constant parallel between The Last Jedi and The Empire Strikes Back, but the director chooses to put the same elements through brutal reality.
this time, going to light speed to escape does not work anymore, there is no more escape. the heroes are forced to contend with impending and real demise.
the rebels do not live to fight another day, they barely survive in the faintest of terms. three large ships, 30 transport vessels and yet by the end of the film the remaining Resistance are barely a dozen on the falcon.
the revelation of "Luke I am your father" is not a revelation, it's simply an acceptance of the truth. it's not met with despair or denial. unlike luke, rey wants to take that hand and no longer be alone.
the traitorous gambling middleman character who is shown to be capable of caring, does not double back after betraying the protagonists. trusting him does not result in a new ally or any positive developments for the rebellion. his involvement is directly responsible for the obliteration of most of the transport ships.
the opening battle is placed as the final battle. the snow speeders sortie does not accomplish anything. they do not cripple any walkers, they do not have a mission accomplishment buying time or shutting down the laser. their effort was entirely worthless.
rey does not find a powerful jedi master, someone who will teach the ways of the force and the way to become a jedi. she finds a flawed old man, who was directly responsible for helping create the villain of the film.
i found myself continually disappointed by this film, because i continually recognized these elements and parallels, and saw how they were twisted.
i found myself expecting constantly for the light at the end of the tunnel to come through, for the story to suddenly stop becoming dark and for the triumphant return of the kind of story where the heroes are able to pull through and win, fortunes turn, the efforts shown are not in vain.
i think the most stunning and bravest example of how far the film was going to go was the Gondor Calls For Aid scene. The speeder sortie was meant to buy time for help from the outlying star systems.
i was expecting waiting for the alliance fleet to appear and rescue. i was waiting expecting for luke's X wing to appear.
and it never came. the help never came.
that was what made this film brilliant, it was because the message was this: its not about lightsabers, it's not about daring missions, it's not about destroying the enemy or being someone's son or daughter
rey is the hero not because she was someone's daughter, it was because she happened to be in the right time and place and help BB-8.
even if help never comes and the darkness really is complete and hope is nowhere to be found, you can be that spark
even if you failed and the order was destroyed, and everything went wrong, it means that the next order can choose to build something better
even if this time the defeat is complete, the first order struck back and won completely and devastatingly, and everything has been broken, including the lightsaber, we can still fight to protect what we love
this star wars movie was brilliant and touching for me because it did everything it could to break down and criticize almost everything about star wars.
the cliches the "basicness" of the story, the expectation that things will work out, that people will be better and be heroic or that bravery will be rewarded always
but in doing so, it also makes an even greater effort to make the case that what star wars says and stands for is enduring and is valuable in itself, even if you break the light saber in half.
I liked this movie a LOT until the end, I feel like they were juggling some fun stuff and then they just slipped and every ball just went somewhere random and I just was left thinking... what?
Why the fuck was everything in the god damned end a Force Illusion? Why have Luke DIE that way? Its pointless, having him sacrifice himself to Kylo Ren and actually meet him face to face would provide more drama, and the drama of "ha! It was an illusion this whole time Kylo!" wouldn't be underminded because, like, it'd have served a purpose of preserving his life instead of... serving no purpose because he could've just died in that fight in the flesh. I hated that bit.
I also gravely wish that the Jedi dissolution was given more reason, I mean as the opposite end of a negative (the Sith) I would've found it far more interesting to have them do the grey jedi thing where they appreciate the balance from within rather than trying to create the balance by being Jedi because there are Sith and all that shit. It would've been really cool to see Kylo and Rey actually attempt to meet in a grey-area of the force between them and found a new (second?) order of Jedi. I dunno. I felt like there were ways to go with an actual "Jedi are bad and Sith are bad, lets try true balance from within" rather than, "Whoops, hey, actually I take it back, JEDI GUYS! JEDI!"
I also have no appreciation for why Admiral Lady didnt just fucking tell Poe her plan what does it accomplish to keep a known hothead who clearly doesnt trust you in the dark? Tell the fucking man, "hey, we're gonna send some pods with all our people down to the planet base there and they'll scooch right on past us, easy peasy, so we're gonna make it" instead shes a dick to him, and hes a fuckin hotheaded nut so he sends a mission that gets lots of the resistance killed because... she didnt tell him the fucking plan and he can't be trusted to NOT act. Why not tell him? I dont get it.
Also was Yoda a practical effect? Cause I found him... ugly and jarring...
But uh, I can forgive a lot of it, but the end just did no work to satisfyingly tie up or continue any of the ends in any of the ways Id have preferred. I can deal with the Poe shit, but the Rey-Force shit at the end was just... ugh.
I liked this movie a LOT until the end, I feel like they were juggling some fun stuff and then they just slipped and every ball just went somewhere random and I just was left thinking... what?
Why the fuck was everything in the god damned end a Force Illusion? Why have Luke DIE that way? Its pointless, having him sacrifice himself to Kylo Ren and actually meet him face to face would provide more drama, and the drama of "ha! It was an illusion this whole time Kylo!" wouldn't be underminded because, like, it'd have served a purpose of preserving his life instead of... serving no purpose because he could've just died in that fight in the flesh. I hated that bit.
I also gravely wish that the Jedi dissolution was given more reason, I mean as the opposite end of a negative (the Sith) I would've found it far more interesting to have them do the grey jedi thing where they appreciate the balance from within rather than trying to create the balance by being Jedi because there are Sith and all that shit. It would've been really cool to see Kylo and Rey actually attempt to meet in a grey-area of the force between them and found a new (second?) order of Jedi. I dunno. I felt like there were ways to go with an actual "Jedi are bad and Sith are bad, lets try true balance from within" rather than, "Whoops, hey, actually I take it back, JEDI GUYS! JEDI!"
I also have no appreciation for why Admiral Lady didnt just fucking tell Poe her plan what does it accomplish to keep a known hothead who clearly doesnt trust you in the dark? Tell the fucking man, "hey, we're gonna send some pods with all our people down to the planet base there and they'll scooch right on past us, easy peasy, so we're gonna make it" instead shes a dick to him, and hes a fuckin hotheaded nut so he sends a mission that gets lots of the resistance killed because... she didnt tell him the fucking plan and he can't be trusted to NOT act. Why not tell him? I dont get it.
Also was Yoda a practical effect? Cause I found him... ugly and jarring...
But uh, I can forgive a lot of it, but the end just did no work to satisfyingly tie up or continue any of the ends in any of the ways Id have preferred. I can deal with the Poe shit, but the Rey-Force shit at the end was just... ugh.
I had that thought originally about the force projection, and the only thing I can come up with is that maybe he didn't want to give Kylo the satisfaction of killing him face to face? Maybe he thought it would bring him further to the dark side? Who knows tbh. I'm happy they brought force projections into the movies though. Also couldn't Luke like idk, just kill Kylo himself or are we supposed to believe he's somehow stronger than Luke already.
Overall I enjoyed the movie. Lots of continuity issues, but I'm just there to enjoy some cool scenes and see cool explosions so I don't let that stuff bother me. + Show Spoiler +
Not a fan of the way Snoke died, or even the fact that he died at all with literally no character progression leading up to it. It doesn't even make sense from Kylo Ren's point of view as well other than to prove he's retarded and just wants to make his road to Universal domination even harder. Although the whole Kylo + Rey teamup fight was really cool imo
.
I have to say though, reading that Rian Johnson interview posted earlier really makes me fucking sad. How can you be that careless when making a movie KNOWING that there is going to be another one. I feel bad for JJ coming in to fix this shit.
btw I have a question and I'm not sure if it's been discussed here already. Did the kid at the end use the force to grab the broom? Curious what they are trying to imply with that. I guess it could be just another random ass Rian Johnson idea where he was like "LOL lets see what JJ can do with this shit in EP 9".
TLDR - I'm fully aware of the issues that everyone seems to have and I can agree with them. But I just shut my brain off and had a fun time watching it.
I personally enjoyed the force illusion a lot. It came to me as more of a character moment for Kylo not being able to find his place. A lot of his (and Rey) arc was about letting go of the past, trying to kill the past (killing his father, letting go of his Vader crush, killing snoke) but he never actually is able to let go. And when he his fighting Luke he his fighting literally nothing, it's just a ghost of the past that's in front of him (Luke even looked younger with his RTJ black gear on). Kylo is unable to actually let go of the past, there is no reason for him to get down on the ground he would have just won if he was able to ignore his past, ignore Luke, even when he blast him with a thousand cannon he doesn't realize that's something his wrong.
As for the critiques on the force function, it didin't bother me, the force was always pretty vague anyway it always seemed pretty stupid to me that an all powerful force in the universe made you jump 20 feet into the air
The force illusion thing would be better if Luke didn't die. It sort of undermined the entire idea of "lol, Luke played him so hard" when Luke just died at the end anyways as we expected. A bad call.
On December 18 2017 10:01 Nakajin wrote: For the Luke thing + Show Spoiler +
I personally enjoyed the force illusion a lot. It came to me as more of a character moment for Kylo not being able to find his place. A lot of his (and Rey) arc was about letting go of the past, trying to kill the past (killing his father, letting go of his Vader crush, killing snoke) but he never actually is able to let go. And when he his fighting Luke he his fighting literally nothing, it's just a ghost of the past that's in front of him (Luke even looked younger with his RTJ black gear on). Kylo is unable to actually let go of the past, there is no reason for him to get down on the ground he would have just won if he was able to ignore his past, ignore Luke, even when he blast him with a thousand cannon he doesn't realize that's something his wrong.
As for the critiques on the force function, it didin't bother me, the force was always pretty vague anyway it always seemed pretty stupid to me that an all powerful force in the universe made you jump 20 feet into the air
I believe you are supposed to die after doing that although I guess that is no longer canon anyway so he could have potentially lived. Also I totally thought he was ok when he sat up afterwards then he just vanished which was disappointing. On another note, I really expected Luke to get killed off at some point although I thought it would happen in EP 9.
The force illusion thing would be better if Luke didn't die. It sort of undermined the entire idea of "lol, Luke played him so hard" when Luke just died at the end anyways as we expected. A bad call.
I think he just gave up like Obiwan did after he felt like it was time for his story to end, after he gave his final lesson to Kylo, but hey to each their analysis and taste
Was alright. All the snoke scenes were bad, almost awkwardly/prequel bad. There is 0 weight behind that character, and even his “throne room” is incredibly jarring and odd and red. I cringed in my seat until the scenes were over. His guards are dumb — the emperor never had guards because he was the motherfucking emperor.
The Leah floating through space meme was something special though that’s an odd decision
Was alright. All the snoke scenes were bad, almost awkwardly/prequel bad. There is 0 weight behind that character, and even his “throne room” is incredibly jarring and odd and red. I cringed in my seat until the scenes were over. His guards are dumb — the emperor never had guards because he was the motherfucking emperor.
The Leah floating through space meme was something special though that’s an odd decision
Was alright. All the snoke scenes were bad, almost awkwardly/prequel bad. There is 0 weight behind that character, and even his “throne room” is incredibly jarring and odd and red. I cringed in my seat until the scenes were over. His guards are dumb — the emperor never had guards because he was the motherfucking emperor.
The Leah floating through space meme was something special though that’s an odd decision
I get that they are in the extended universe or whatever but in the original trilogy they aren’t in it until a few shots in rotj. Likely because these characters are more menacing when they are alone.
On December 18 2017 07:48 CHEONSOYUN wrote: what made this a brilliant star wars film was that it decided to break all of the rules and all of the themes in order to come back full circle to those same themes after acknowledging the flaws.
the hero of the story is not the child of anyone important; the reveal of rey's parentage is not of a weapons designer, a senator, a hero, a jedi or a sith lord. it's of worthless nameless scum. the hero is a nobody who came from nowhere.
the brave rebel pilot leads constant sorties against the odds and makes daring missions to destroy the latest and biggest threats. and yet the constant X wing explosions and ships being destroyed this time are not just stock battle scenes, they were valuable assets, invaluable and irreplacable.
there's a constant parallel between The Last Jedi and The Empire Strikes Back, but the director chooses to put the same elements through brutal reality.
this time, going to light speed to escape does not work anymore, there is no more escape. the heroes are forced to contend with impending and real demise.
the rebels do not live to fight another day, they barely survive in the faintest of terms. three large ships, 30 transport vessels and yet by the end of the film the remaining Resistance are barely a dozen on the falcon.
the revelation of "Luke I am your father" is not a revelation, it's simply an acceptance of the truth. it's not met with despair or denial. unlike luke, rey wants to take that hand and no longer be alone.
the traitorous gambling middleman character who is shown to be capable of caring, does not double back after betraying the protagonists. trusting him does not result in a new ally or any positive developments for the rebellion. his involvement is directly responsible for the obliteration of most of the transport ships.
the opening battle is placed as the final battle. the snow speeders sortie does not accomplish anything. they do not cripple any walkers, they do not have a mission accomplishment buying time or shutting down the laser. their effort was entirely worthless.
rey does not find a powerful jedi master, someone who will teach the ways of the force and the way to become a jedi. she finds a flawed old man, who was directly responsible for helping create the villain of the film.
i found myself continually disappointed by this film, because i continually recognized these elements and parallels, and saw how they were twisted.
i found myself expecting constantly for the light at the end of the tunnel to come through, for the story to suddenly stop becoming dark and for the triumphant return of the kind of story where the heroes are able to pull through and win, fortunes turn, the efforts shown are not in vain.
i think the most stunning and bravest example of how far the film was going to go was the Gondor Calls For Aid scene. The speeder sortie was meant to buy time for help from the outlying star systems.
i was expecting waiting for the alliance fleet to appear and rescue. i was waiting expecting for luke's X wing to appear.
and it never came. the help never came.
that was what made this film brilliant, it was because the message was this: its not about lightsabers, it's not about daring missions, it's not about destroying the enemy or being someone's son or daughter
rey is the hero not because she was someone's daughter, it was because she happened to be in the right time and place and help BB-8.
even if help never comes and the darkness really is complete and hope is nowhere to be found, you can be that spark
even if you failed and the order was destroyed, and everything went wrong, it means that the next order can choose to build something better
even if this time the defeat is complete, the first order struck back and won completely and devastatingly, and everything has been broken, including the lightsaber, we can still fight to protect what we love
this star wars movie was brilliant and touching for me because it did everything it could to break down and criticize almost everything about star wars.
the cliches the "basicness" of the story, the expectation that things will work out, that people will be better and be heroic or that bravery will be rewarded always
but in doing so, it also makes an even greater effort to make the case that what star wars says and stands for is enduring and is valuable in itself, even if you break the light saber in half.
I can appreciate some unexpected twists in the story, but basically twisting everything that could be twisted isn't that good. This lessens the impact of many scenes (not to mention some stuff established in previous installments). The only really good plot twist, that actually added some depth to the movie was the mutiny. And even this could be argued because the entire space chase scene could be dispensed with easily (and it would make more sense).
You're focusing so much on all those amazing unexpected things happening, but you completely forget to mention how they impact the overall pacing of the movie (which suffers greatly) and how low emotional impact 90% of it has.
Sure, this is nothing like Empire Strikes Back. It hasn't got as many memorable characters (if any at all), it does not get any real emotional response out of you, it does not have a coherent plot line. It's like an assortment of random scenes and ideas jumbled together and cut down a bit so that they more or less fit the first movie (think trying to fit cubes into triangle-shaped openings) but just barely in most cases. I just hope that the third movie won't be using round holes...
IRL I have not yet met a single person who would be swayed by this movie. Both SW fans and SW ignorants can agree that The Last Jedi was a mediocre movie at best with some cool action scenes here and there. A completely forgettable run-of-the-mill Hollywood production.
I've seen people say "the scenes aren't contemporaneous, you dummies." So Rey's scenes start immediately after TFA. Everyone else's start...days after TFA? Weeks? And in those days/weeks the Resistance was completely destroyed? But the timelines being separate doesn't make sense, because Rey and Kylo get hooked together telepathically, so the two timelines are concurrent. But *that* doesn't make sense, because we had a clear ticking clock for the Resistance so Rey couldn't have been on the planet for more than a day (and she clearly was). Does the planet just spin extra fast? Can Snoke hook people together into force bonds across time?
It felt like they were going for a "remember how in Empire the Rebellion was on their last legs even though they won in A New Hope?" but completely missed the fact that years elapsed in the timeline between the two movies. We didn't start Empire with with a continuous shot of Luke chilling on Yavin IV from A New Hope, after all.
my post mentions those unexpected twists, but my assertion is that they're personally upsetting in many ways. unsatisfying.
that's the only part of my post you're responding to other than my conclusion that i enjoyed it
the film was upsetting and enjoyable and pleasing and upsetting because there are many many many allusions that are indirect or parallel all of the original trilogies movies and the basic story of the prequel.
it's like expecting a piece of chocolate and finding a piece of dark chocolate with no milk or sugar.
the movie finds its identity as a star wars movie that strips away a lot of the traditional elements and bends them, in order to demonstrate that the themes of star wars are where the real magic is.
rey lifting rocks, luke showing up with a laser sword isn't significant in of those things of itself. the mistake with a lot of people's perception with star wars is that's what they think it really is: that's what the film wanted to address.
Liked it less than rogue 1 but more than 7. Little too much homage to the original trilogy for my tastes but not as in your face as last time. They made a pretty clean slate for 9 though so I look forward to more originality there
This is really werid for me because I'm never been a movie hater. I even find value in transformers movies and just find the dc movies to struggle in comparison to marvel movies quality. But man I really hate this movie in ways that make me hate the people that like the movie. Its spreading like a virus to everything else star wars in my head to be lesser because I watched it. I don't think I could have done a better job but thats about the only positive thing I can say about it.
I think this might have been one of the most pointless movies in the franchise. You could cut out like, 70% of the film and turn it into a T.V special before the next episode and it would work better.
What sort of director and story writer takes a look at the theories going around regarding who the key players are, and decisively removes any and all intrigue from them - or just removes the character in general without us knowing anything more.
I do not under stand the point of this film, and it really drove the nail home that this trilogy is going to be completely terrible.
On December 18 2017 06:20 Xarles wrote: New interview with Rian Johnson
Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
RJ: Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.
What on earth is his problem to do that, why would you have a triology arc and not make them inter twine or even remotely close to eachother. This is so silly, what was he thinking! At least it explains alot. JJ next film going to be basically episode 7.5 then probably as he will continue from TFA as what it should have been probably, just he gets no snoke and no luke to work with, oh and no Leia. Going to be fun for him!
On December 18 2017 08:15 Liquid`Drone wrote: pep might not be exceptional in terms of making a bad team decent, we don't know that either way. But he's definitely exceptional at making great teams even greater. This City looks like the best team the premier league has ever seen. And even with this group of players, you can see Pep's identity fully present in how they play and the choices the players make, and this is part of why they are able to be so dominant. Pep's style is all about maintaining complete control of the game.
Like, with the early season draw to Everton (city got a player sent off after 44 minutes (everton one after 88), 19-6 shots), they are like 22-1-0 in games of importance this season. They've beaten all the best premier league teams, often convincingly. Contrasting with other managers that have managed 91+ point seasons (mourinho and conte), Pep's teams dominate possession and shots statistics, and this just.. makes the probability of those occasional screwup games much less frequent. Barring several key injuries I'm not surprised if they end up going 34-4-0 and win the Champions league, they look more consistently great than pretty much any other team ever has. Pep obviously deserves credit for this.
Transformer movie fan <3 haha im the same, i rarely hate any movie i see, i love every transformers movie there has been and religiously go to every one of them. Never gone out of a cinema before after a movie thinking, wtf did i just watch. My feeling (almost) was of the South Park episode when the guys watched the new Indiana Jones movie and watched him get "raped" because it was so bad. That is nearly what i was feeling at the end with how Luke's character came across and the film as a whole.
Haha without derailing the thread, the opening 10 minutes of the last knight i was genuinely confused and thought i was in the wrong film and was questioning stuff. But the rest of it was top quality, many action scenes, big mark whalberg being mark whalberg :D
But yeah the last jedi is summed up by Rian Johnson in that interview, he made a film without continuing TFA or setting up anything for episode 9, which is why we got the film we got. Imo he basically stuck 2 fingers up to JJ for episode 9!
This Movie was just stupid and made no friggin sense.
The Opening: Was actually fun, completly ridiculous with a single X-Wing basically owning a capital ship destroying all its Turrets - besides the two turrets that actually matter. The Bombers were also cool but made no sense, for some reason they need to be above the enemy Ship to drop their bombs – in friggin space (just turn your ship ffs). But ok, this was fun and Star Wars doesn’t need to make that kind of sense .
After this it went downhill.
«The Chase» and everything on the Resistance-Ship: Fin wakes up and walks around and no one gives a shit about the poor guy until he accidentally runs into Poe. It features the slowest «chase» ever and apparently the New Order is too stupid to just jump a few Ships ahead. They are also not willing to lose a few Tie-Fighters because as it seems, completly erradicating the Resistance including its leadership isn’t worth a few Tie-Fighters – Which are completly capable of destroying it. The part they destroy with Leia and General «no one ever cared about» also seemed to host no critical system because its destruction didn’t seem to impact the ship at all. They are fast enough to get out of «lasers do dmg range but still reach and can destroy transports with 100% accuracy despite them being even farther away and obviously having long ass travel time» but can’t lose them completly. Yeah, they are unshielded but still. Cloaked Transporters can be spotted by «activating cloke spotting device», which for no reason wasn’t on before. The resistance ship also has no autopilot but can be flown by 1 Person, which isn’t even a Pilot. It also can’t just move in between the Transports and the Fleet, because who knows… Rather directly suicide. Atleast the explosion looked cool (why not do this with the smaller ships before they go completly empty?). Not telling your best Pilot, which is a known hothead, your reasonable plan for no reason is also totally normal. That Leia is now space jesus too scene… I actually couldn’t believe this when i saw it. Ugh…
Other stuff: Casino Planet? Fin storyline in general? I haven’t heard anyone thinking this part is good. A bit of social commentary and „guy we didn’t search but also capable of doing exactly what we came here for happens to be in our cell“. False parking is also a reason to be thrown in jail but your ship will be just left in place because, fuck you, we need another explosion in this movie. Rey just goes to visit Ben by letting herself get captures because. The Plot needs to advance NOW. They can talk and even touch each other whiteout being physically on the same Planet/Ship/Sun System. Why even travel?. Luckily Snoke, despite being uber powerfull and capable of reading minds, connecting people and so on can’t feel, hear or see the Lightsaber right next to him turning around by force manipulation. Before that the Rey/Ben scenes were pretty much the best stuff in the Movie, then they went full retard. Fin and Girl escape because luckily one Ship was completly unharmed despite the whole Hangar they are in being a giant mess. Rebell base whiteout an exit closes --> Man the trenches (wut?) and send out the speeders (wut?). Crystal Foxes seem to also be into politics and decide to join the Rebels in their base (wut?). All empire troops decide to stop shooting when Fin decides to suicide (wut?) so he can be „safed by high speed crash“ (wut? How did she even catch up). Also: Door-Ram-Laser. Why they didn’t just fire this twice and just end the Rebellion.. Who knows. How they knew they should bring their Door-Ram-Laser… DOOR RAM LASER… Oh, just fuck this movie. Luke decides to die after the one time in the movie he did something that Luke would actually do. Millenium Falcon because, Millenium Falcon! Which leads away T-Fighters and then doesn’t get back to the Rebells to help them because, who still gives a shit at this point? Rebel base with no exit also happens to have an exit blocked by a bit of rubble, you can even see outside from it… FFS. In walking distance from the holiest Jedi place is also some „Evil“ hole in the ground. There is a strange mirror that tells you absolutely nothing and lets you just leave after you played with it a bit, snipping your fingers is apparently the coolest thing they came up with. Distances and Time also really don’t matter. Travel is basically instant as soon as you have a ship. No matter where in the Galaxy you are. BB88, is there anything this thing can’t do? He’s worse than prequel R2D2, which i didn’t think was possible. It also shits on everything EP7 has brought up and made you wonder about EP7. Knights of Ren anyone? +Constant and often missfiring Humour for no reason.
Btw: Main Cast is now 1 Asian, 1 Black, 1 brownish, 2 white Woman, 1 white guy (naturally he’s the evil one) and all Men in general are hot headed idiots (Poe/Fin/Ben). I actually don’t mind this, if the movie was any decent and not just a giant marketing ploy.
Nothing in this Movie made any sense, it had some nice visuals but thats about it. If Snoke wouldn’t be in EP7, you actually wouldn’t need this movie for anything. Nothing really changed since the End of EP7.
i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do. but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie.
On December 18 2017 18:51 Pandemona wrote: Haha without derailing the thread, the opening 10 minutes of the last knight i was genuinely confused and thought i was in the wrong film and was questioning stuff. But the rest of it was top quality, many action scenes, big mark whalberg being mark whalberg :D
But yeah the last jedi is summed up by Rian Johnson in that interview, he made a film without continuing TFA or setting up anything for episode 9, which is why we got the film we got. Imo he basically stuck 2 fingers up to JJ for episode 9!
Yeah, it's so stupid that this is actually a thing
The Opening: Was actually fun, completly ridiculous with a single X-Wing basically owning a capital ship destroying all its Turrets - besides the two turrets that actually matter. The Bombers were also cool but made no sense, for some reason they need to be above the enemy Ship to drop their bombs – in friggin space (just turn your ship ffs). But ok, this was fun and Star Wars doesn’t need to make that kind of sense .
After this it went downhill.
«The Chase» and everything on the Resistance-Ship: Fin wakes up and walks around and no one gives a shit about the poor guy until he accidentally runs into Poe. It features the slowest «chase» ever and apparently the New Order is too stupid to just jump a few Ships ahead. They are also not willing to lose a few Tie-Fighters because as it seems, completly erradicating the Resistance including its leadership isn’t worth a few Tie-Fighters – Which are completly capable of destroying it. The part they destroy with Leia and General «no one ever cared about» also seemed to host no critical system because its destruction didn’t seem to impact the ship at all. They are fast enough to get out of «lasers do dmg range but still reach and can destroy transports with 100% accuracy despite them being even farther away and obviously having long ass travel time» but can’t lose them completly. Yeah, they are unshielded but still. Cloaked Transporters can be spotted by «activating cloke spotting device», which for no reason wasn’t on before. The resistance ship also has no autopilot but can be flown by 1 Person, which isn’t even a Pilot. It also can’t just move in between the Transports and the Fleet, because who knows… Rather directly suicide. Atleast the explosion looked cool (why not do this with the smaller ships before they go completly empty?). Not telling your best Pilot, which is a known hothead, your reasonable plan for no reason is also totally normal. That Leia is now space jesus too scene… I actually couldn’t believe this when i saw it. Ugh…
Other stuff: Casino Planet? Fin storyline in general? I haven’t heard anyone thinking this part is good. A bit of social commentary and „guy we didn’t search but also capable of doing exactly what we came here for happens to be in our cell“. False parking is also a reason to be thrown in jail but your ship will be just left in place because, fuck you, we need another explosion in this movie. Rey just goes to visit Ben by letting herself get captures because. The Plot needs to advance NOW. They can talk and even touch each other whiteout being physically on the same Planet/Ship/Sun System. Why even travel?. Luckily Snoke, despite being uber powerfull and capable of reading minds, connecting people and so on can’t feel, hear or see the Lightsaber right next to him turning around by force manipulation. Before that the Rey/Ben scenes were pretty much the best stuff in the Movie, then they went full retard. Fin and Girl escape because luckily one Ship was completly unharmed despite the whole Hangar they are in being a giant mess. Rebell base whiteout an exit closes --> Man the trenches (wut?) and send out the speeders (wut?). Crystal Foxes seem to also be into politics and decide to join the Rebels in their base (wut?). All empire troops decide to stop shooting when Fin decides to suicide (wut?) so he can be „safed by high speed crash“ (wut? How did she even catch up). Also: Door-Ram-Laser. Why they didn’t just fire this twice and just end the Rebellion.. Who knows. How they knew they should bring their Door-Ram-Laser… DOOR RAM LASER… Oh, just fuck this movie. Luke decides to die after the one time in the movie he did something that Luke would actually do. Millenium Falcon because, Millenium Falcon! Which leads away T-Fighters and then doesn’t get back to the Rebells to help them because, who still gives a shit at this point? Rebel base with no exit also happens to have an exit blocked by a bit of rubble, you can even see outside from it… FFS. In walking distance from the holiest Jedi place is also some „Evil“ hole in the ground. There is a strange mirror that tells you absolutely nothing and lets you just leave after you played with it a bit, snipping your fingers is apparently the coolest thing they came up with. Distances and Time also really don’t matter. Travel is basically instant as soon as you have a ship. No matter where in the Galaxy you are. BB88, is there anything this thing can’t do? He’s worse than prequel R2D2, which i didn’t think was possible. It also shits on everything EP7 has brought up and made you wonder about EP7. Knights of Ren anyone? +Constant and often missfiring Humour for no reason.
Btw: Main Cast is now 1 Asian, 1 Black, 1 brownish, 2 white Woman, 1 white guy (naturally he’s the evil one) and all Men in general are hot headed idiots (Poe/Fin/Ben). I actually don’t mind this, if the movie was any decent and not just a giant marketing ploy.
Nothing in this Movie made any sense, it had some nice visuals but thats about it. If Snoke wouldn’t be in EP7, you actually wouldn’t need this movie for anything. Nothing really changed since the End of EP7.
Why didn't the crew of Nostromo just avoid the weird eggs inside the downed spaceship?
Just to reiterate, simplified versions: - Finn learns to fight for those he loves instead of against those he hates - Rey learns the truth about her parents, and that it's her actions, not her lineage, that define her - Poe learns that his daring actions have real consequences, and sometimes a plan is indeed so crazy that it just doesn't work
On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do. but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie.
I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one.
I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One.
You wouldn't think that though , the reception of the film being worst than TFA and Rogue 1, because every media outlet has been bought by Disney it seems and is dubbing this an amazing film. Rotten Tomatoes score is 93% ffs, even the user rating of 52% is way to high than what it should be.
Oh well, i am just glad it wasn't just me who thought this was bad and isn't anything wrong with me haha
Finn wakes up and immediatly wants to go after Rey. If you argue that he didn't want to go after her, then he wanted to just gtfo but got caught by "girl". I guess the lesson Finn learns according to you he somehow gets when Girl tells him exactly this when he doesn't have a choice anymore anyway because Girl stopped him after he made the choice to rather die then let the ones he hates win? Oh, and then she kisses him because, why not. You don't even know if he learned anything yet. You assume it... Lesson learned by speeder crash and one sentence by "Girl"? I hope Fins character is a bit stronger than that but i doubt it...
Rey got the truth about her parents from Kylo, due to a Snoke induced connection? This doesn't seem to be a trustworthy source. But her not having Special parents doesn't bother me at all. As i said, the Ben/Rey interactions were pretty much the best stuff in the movie.
No General disagreement on Poe. To bad the story that lead to him "growing" was the by far worst part of the movie. The plan was reckless but not any more reckless than the other "plans" from Ep 4-7 and the reason why this plan even come to be also seemed, uhm, reckless? Whats the reasoning behind: "Lets not tell our highest ranking Pilot(?) that is seen as a hero by much of the crew our plan? No, better make him believe that we just cruise towards death because he needs to learn that following orders/trust his superiors is important - right after he got a knew superiour he didn't know?" A bit of a strange time to teach someone his place/a lesson
Btw: This probably was better than EP 1-2 and maybe 3... But you should see me rant about these :p... "I don't like sand"... I honestly don't remember most of 3 so it was probably not as insulting as 1 and 2 .
On December 19 2017 00:31 Pandemona wrote: You wouldn't think that though , the reception of the film being worst than TFA and Rogue 1, because every media outlet has been bought by Disney it seems and is dubbing this an amazing film. Rotten Tomatoes score is 93% ffs, even the user rating of 52% is way to high than what it should be.
Oh well, i am just glad it wasn't just me who thought this was bad and isn't anything wrong with me haha
It has an "A" score on Cinemascore and 89% positive on ComScore/Screen Engine, which are more accurate gauges of audience reactions than online user scores. This franchise has the type of fanbase that would react to disappointment by flooding sites that require self-selection to get votes.
User reviews make way more sense if referred to as “Mob Reviews.” And that Nickleback is still very popular, despite critics and other musicians hating that band. Don’t look to these systems or critics as evidence that any movie is bad or good.
TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
The OT were amazing for their visual design and sense of a lived in world that was large than the screen could hold. And that stuff is what fueled the head cannon of the era. I still content that my 11 year old Vader head cannon is better than this lava garbage.
But I feel that any starwars movie will have anger that is louder than praise. It is just the nature of fandom that was given so long by itself, doing its own thing.
lol the memories.. my first star wars movie was the phantom menace,i was a kid back then and when i found the game in PS1 SW the phantom menace it was proly one of my favorites game after metal gear ,dino crisis and resident evil. i have only good memories of that movie,now as an adult is shocking seeing all the hate that the movie gets . I guess is always like that.same thing with starcraft, starcraft 2,remastered etc
I am not saying that the OT wasn't doing things right, i am saying it was doing a lot of things wrong and people never acknowledge that. In their head the OT is that golden standard when even these movies have a lot of flaws. Especially ROTJ does so many things badly, things people would tear apart if it was in a new movie. The franchise is bigger than the movies' quality, the OT is on that pedestal largely because of nostalgia. The new movies get trashed for things which were already a part of the OT (convenient writing, etc) and don't get praise for things they do way better (acting as the easiest example) People complain that TFA is too close to the OT plot wise and then complain that TLJ isn't close enough (basically). Plot is only such a small part of a movie though. And plot was never impressive in star wars anyway.
I'm no fanboy, i tought 7 was fine, I disliked rogue one, 6 is not great and 4 hasn't aged well. The prequels are another level of horrid but 8 managed to have likeable and actually interesting characters and still being utter stupidity because the plot is just an array of holes and lucky coincidences.
Maye if you cut it down by 40-50 minutes it would be ok.
ROTJ is a lot of fun the same way John Wick and the Matrix are a bunch of fun. For the love of god, don't think to hard about it or ask why Luke's plan for rescuing Han was so complex. Also remember that all the Ewoks die as their planet's eco-system is destroyed by the rubble and waste from the destroyed deathstar and Imperial Fleet.
The one thing that the TO did get right as that first duel between Luke and Vader. There was real suspense in thinking that Luke might just pull out a pucky hero win. And then it goes full horror movie.
It's true that the OT is imperfect and if you nitpick enough you will find things wrong with it. It's also true that flaws don't mean a movie sucks. But despite the fact that I thought the movie wasn't too bad, it rightfully leaves a pretty bad aftertaste.
For all the flaws of TFA, I have to say that Abrams did character development far better than Johnson. The only exception is Kylo Ren in that Johnson fleshed him out in a much more dignified manner, but Johnson failed to make Rey into a worthy character (was borderline for Abrams but he did have some good scenes like the AT-AT one), all the new characters he introduced were kind of either bad or ultimately disappointing, and the new movie looks like it was written with fuck-all regard for continuity (it was).
After having some time to digest it, it feels most like one of the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, perhaps one of the lesser ones like the Thor franchise. They have some worthy characters and decent plot points within, but the good characters consistently get screwed on plot if they're not one of the goodie two-shoes superheroes, and meaningful character development sequences are excluded. The plot of one movie hardly seems to lead into the next, with continuity being handwaved with something of an asspull. Yes, they're fun to watch, but you don't really get invested in the plot because they aren't high-quality storytelling.
This movie makes me wonder what the hell E9 is going to have to do to be serviceable. I think Abrams is good enough to make the best out of a screwed up plot point or two but the movie has to pick up where this one left off and not break more continuity. Rather than focusing on finishing in a grand and worthy manner like RotJ got to do (and it did do it well despite "wahhh ewocks" complaints) it now has to de-stupid its predecessor.
Nothing beats Lucas’s ability to convince us that a farm boy could fly a fighter jet with a single line. Not even storm troopers can fly TIE fighters, but this dumb ass farm boy is suddenly an ace pilot. God I love that pulp convention where everyone with a full name can be a race car driver or ace pilot on demand.
man thinking about it that leia scene was so weird,i remember watching it and i was like what the hell is going on..That was some kind of tribute ? i dont think so cuz in theory she finished the movie before his death.
Ewoks aren't the only problem of ROTJ. The whole movie is really mediocre, the only actual good part is the same standard of production as the others and the throne room stuff. Other than that it doesn't have much going for it. People complain about humor being a problem in TLJ because you cannot get immersed? Well the old movies and in particular ROTJ have so many cheesy things which make it impossible to take it seriously. But i guess that's just "charm"
On December 19 2017 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ewoks aren't the only problem of ROTJ. The whole movie is really mediocre, the only actual good part is the same standard of production as the others and the throne room stuff. Other than that it doesn't have much going for it. People complain about humor being a problem in TLJ because you cannot get immersed? Well the old movies and in particular ROTJ have so many cheesy things which make it impossible to take it seriously. But i guess that's just "charm"
This so much. 6 wasn't good. The opening with freeing Han was cool and the Throneroom... The rest? I barely remember it, except Evoks killing atats using stones... At least r2d2 didn't singlehandely kill a batallion of stormtroopers... Or peed fire on battle droids... Or killed them by coin.
I mostly liked it. My main complaint with this movie was the Finn/Rose subplot -- very forced, too much slapstick for my liking, uninteresting/unnecessary side characters, but the main plot line was good.
Not sure how anybody can complain about plot holes or cheesiness, it was always a part of Star Wars.
On December 19 2017 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ewoks aren't the only problem of ROTJ. The whole movie is really mediocre, the only actual good part is the same standard of production as the others and the throne room stuff. Other than that it doesn't have much going for it. People complain about humor being a problem in TLJ because you cannot get immersed? Well the old movies and in particular ROTJ have so many cheesy things which make it impossible to take it seriously. But i guess that's just "charm"
This so much. 6 wasn't good. The opening with freeing Han was cool and the Throneroom... The rest? I barely remember it, except Evoks killing atats using stones... At least r2d2 didn't singlehandely kill a batallion of stormtroopers... Or peed fire on battle droids... Or killed them by coin.
Well that was really a bit much, bb8 got a lot of silly scenes. Kinda like r2d2 in the prequels.
I dunno, plot-hole wise it just seemed denser. Maybe I need to rewatch TFA. But for this movie they actually had to have the art book include info that time moves faster on the Jedi planet in order to make the timetable work. That feels like a new low to me, and something that could have easily been fit into the script if they hadn't already bulged it out into a 150 minute monster.
On December 19 2017 06:59 TheTenthDoc wrote: I dunno, plot-hole wise it just seemed denser. Maybe I need to rewatch TFA. But for this movie they actually had to have the art book include info that time moves faster on the Jedi planet in order to make the timetable work. That feels like a new low to me, and something that could have easily been fit into the script if they hadn't already bulged it out into a 150 minute monster.
IIRC people had similar issues with ESB. Luke/Yoda and the rest don't make much sense on a timeline. In TLJ it's more severe though i agree. Again though, plot/logic was never a strong aspect of star wars. There are countless problems in every single star wars movie if we just look for it. FFS the big weakness of the Deathstar had to be explained in Rogue One because it was so stupid.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I agree with 7, but I don't think 8 is nearly as much of a rehash. 7 was very predictable and gave a "reboot" vibe, 8 kind of went in a different direction.
I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
On December 19 2017 10:58 ragz_gt wrote: I agree with 7, but I don't think 8 is nearly as much of a rehash. 7 was very predictable and gave a "reboot" vibe, 8 kind of went in a different direction.
And yet the general plot of the movie is exactly the same as Empire Strikes Back, with bits of Return of the Jedi mixed in.
Opening battle, Empire Wins, Empire that has a big huge ship, proceeds to chase Rebels throughout the movie because they can't go to light speed, (although in this movie the chase is stupid since it's just a slow crawl across a single planet), meanwhile main character goes to receive Jedi training but is stuck due to the awkward or unwilling nature of the mentor, during training the main character discovers a dark place with the force and is tempted towards the dark side, meanwhile the Rebels hatch a desperate plan to escape from the Empire only to be betrayed and put in a worse position as a result, Jedi character finds their way back to the others and has a confrontation with the Sith bad guy which goes unexpectedly bad and Luke's lightsaber gets lost, (let's not forget that the actual confrontation was stolen DIRECTLY from Return of the Jedi's throne room) there is an ensuing desperate battle and the Rebels barely escape aboard the Millenium Falcon, bloodied and wounded and with a main character seemingly lost as a result, but don't worry he'll be back in the next movie.
For all of the crap about how much this movie went in a different direction, and for all of the wasted plot points from Episode 7 that never got followed up on, this movie tells a completely unoriginal story, and not even unoriginal in a "Oh but Star Wars is just a collection of different classic stories like the Hero's Story", no unoriginal in that we have already seen this same exact story in another Star Wars movie.
Kylo's direction going forward, and for as silly his interstellar skype session with Rey is, it makes both more intriguing character. Finn's role as 2nd protag even though they couldn't figure out quite what to do with him yet. Also, the biggest difference for me is while ESB ending gives a sense of faint hope, TLJ feels more hopelessness even though characters keep mentioning hope, which is only achieved by invalidate the ending on OT, in a "been there, done that, got the scar" but nothing really changed way. I'm very intrigued by how 9 would resolve it.
If you want ignore all that then sure it would be a crappy movie, as would any movie.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason. This is juxtaposed by Rey training with Luke, how he teaches her to control her emotions, not give in to fear and find her balance. All this time Rey and Kylo get the force-connection thingie going on (not Snoke's doing), where Rey sees Kylo succumbing more and more to the darkness and tries to save him. The rebels learn about FO gathering people somewhere and go on to investigate...
It turns out that it was all for the final stages of Kylo's training, where he's told to kill children in front of their parents and feel the nuances of force as they go into either blind rage or total sorrow. Rey and Lule feel this commotion in the force and go on to see if they can help (that's how we get to have all the characters in one place).
What happens next is that the rebels are trying to free the people while Kylo and Snoke are fighting against Rey and Luke. The good guys come on top eventually which leads to several meaningful scenes:
1. As FO retreats Kylo is boarding the shuttle with seriously battered Snoke. Snoke makes a remark about how they can learn from this and get stronger so they can get back at the rebel scum. Kylo pauses for a moment, impales Snoke on his lightsaber and throws him off the ramp to his death. General Huckley (or whatever his name is) sees this and starts to object but as Kylo turns to face him and he sees into the dark pit inside him he stops. He realizes that Kylo is no longer this whiny boy but a fully realized sith lord. In fear he utters 'Supreme leader is dead, long live the supreme leader' as he removes himself from Kylo's path. There's only one last thing to do for Kylo to free himself from the past - to kill his own mother.
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo).
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do. but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie.
I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one.
I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One.
I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
And to all the haters - I loved it and thought it was perfect in its own flawed way.
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote: I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
Hey there. I consider myself to be a pretty old guard SW fan too, and I really enjoyed the movie too, so don't worry you aren't alone. I think that The scene you are referring to + Show Spoiler +
is alluding to the fact that unlike Ben (who has a skywalker heritage), Rey is self-made and her parents are not important/nameless. This is why she only sees her self. You can contrast this to Luke when he entered into the dark side cave in dagoba, and he sees darth vader (his father, but with himself (luke) in the suit).
1. That Phasma would beat Finn in their fight 2. That Snoke was Plagueis (I guess technically still possible?) 3. That Rey was a Kenobi 4. That the Kylo chance to kill Leia scene was misdirection
Also, what did Yoda say to Luke at the very end of their conversation?
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do. but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie.
I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one.
I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One.
I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh
Like seriously what were they thinking?
I mean you can dislike the movie or even hate it but it was clearly not a pile of crap, on it's own it's a pretty competent movie with some overstretch moments, probably to many characters, some toy selling characters and a bit of incoherence in the plot but nothing particularly jarring. If it wasn't Star wars almost no one would say it's a trash film, it's full of amazing performance, a very good cinematography and soundtrack, there is some great characters building between Kylo and Rey and overall it's still a pretty compelling and logical plot. It's two thing to hate it as the continuation of the Star wars story and to hate it has a movie. Of course you can dislike the movie but it's not like it was Jupiter Ascending of some other disastrous blockbuster movie. I would be very surprise if a lot of casual viewers really hated this movie.
On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do. but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie.
I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one.
I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One.
I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh
Like seriously what were they thinking?
I mean you can dislike the movie or even hate it but it was clearly not a pile of crap, on it's own it's a pretty competent movie with some overstretch moments, probably to many characters, some toy selling characters and a bit of incoherence in the plot but nothing particularly jarring. If it wasn't Star wars almost no one would say it's a trash film, it's full of amazing performance, a very good cinematography and soundtrack, there is some great characters building between Kylo and Rey and overall it's still a pretty compelling and logical plot. It's two thing to hate it as the continuation of the Star wars story and to hate it has a movie. Of course you can dislike the movie but it's not like it was Jupiter Ascending of some other disastrous blockbuster movie. I would be very surprise if a lot of casual viewers really hated this movie.
Yeah I am really take a back by the "a completely pile of crap" and "worse than the prequels" comments.
I feel that what is needed is sufficient perspective to separate your subjective preferences about the movie, and the movie's objective merits and flaws.
I mean there's a guy a few posts up that thinks the movie would be better if Finn went to help Plasma (?!).
"The movie is in large part about Kylo Ren’s and Luke’s deep ambivalence toward legacy and reverence and destiny, in part because it’s the sequel to a movie that might just as well have been an explicit remake of another one it could never live up to. But it’s no mistake or coincidence that the climax of the movie ends with a big, bold, completely earnest callback to the twin sunset from A New Hope, or that the sight of that twin sunset, and the accompanying instantly recognizable 40-year-old musical cue, are what evidently bring Luke the peace he hasn’t been able to find.
The work was to chop all the concreted shit out of the way and find what’s really worth revering. Well, that necessarily involves taking an ax to things!"
On December 19 2017 13:47 calgar wrote: Albert Berneko from the deadspin puts it nicely:
"The movie is in large part about Kylo Ren’s and Luke’s deep ambivalence toward legacy and reverence and destiny, in part because it’s the sequel to a movie that might just as well have been an explicit remake of another one it could never live up to. But it’s no mistake or coincidence that the climax of the movie ends with a big, bold, completely earnest callback to the twin sunset from A New Hope, or that the sight of that twin sunset, and the accompanying instantly recognizable 40-year-old musical cue, are what evidently bring Luke the peace he hasn’t been able to find.
The work was to chop all the concreted shit out of the way and find what’s really worth revering. Well, that necessarily involves taking an ax to things!"
Yea - my only worry is that I hope JJ Abrams has the sense to build from what TLJ has done, rather than try his best to ret-con stuff that he does not like. I think that if the next movie has yet another revelation about the TRUE parents of some of the characters - that would be incredibly lame, and would manage to make just about everyone who watches the movie unhappy.
Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
On December 19 2017 13:54 LegalLord wrote: Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
Well, rather sadly, our geek community is easily polarized and has in the past done plenty of things like reviewing bombing stuff on Steam.
Also, I would imagine that there's quite a bit of selection bias going on with the user reviews, because only those who feel especially strongly about the movie will bother to leave a review.
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote: I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her?
The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote: I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her?
The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
My impression was that she wanted desperately to know that her parents were important people, but they weren't. There was nobody coming to save her so she saw she was all alone. Why did the DS locus show her that? I don't know. The DS should be capable of showing her a lie that draws her further away from the light. But in the end it's about resolving that the DS has nothing to offer her, just as Luke doesn't.
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote: I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her?
The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
I think it's a reference to Kylo relation to killing the past and cut all connection with his past, I think it told Rey that she didn't own anything to her parents, to Luke, the Jedi or the resistance, she has no destiny and can do whatever she want, she is the only one that matters. It's what Kylo want, to be free of his past, of his ancestry (Snoke, Luke, Han, the Jedi....) and to create his own destiny as this master of the universe, to rule all alone like the emperor or Snoke. But Kylo isn't able to do that because he never manage to truly kill his past or get rid of Rey.
Or maybe it was just to tell Rey that her parent were nobody and the dark side was just fucking around IDK.
Honestly this movie suffered from a director who had too many things he wanted to show. As such it suffers from pacing issues. + Show Spoiler +
The Finn/rose storyline seem to exist in this "we need to get everything done as fast as possible" bubble. While the Rey/Luke training has a much slower and less rushed bubble where multiple days pass. Somehow Rey also has tons of force created conversations with Kylo which suggests hes in the same time of time bubble Rey and Luke are given when she has her conversations with him.
Meanwhile Finn's storyline is still supposed to have been done in roughly 8 hours. Then rush the whole snokes ship infiltration/betrayal into a rushed battle on random planet where (as much as I like Finn and think the actor is really good) he is about to make a huge sacrifice for the resistance (huge huge character development for him) and he gets saved by the asian girl who barely knows him cause shes now in love. (its been a day) while potentially damning the entire resistance to death.
TBH had finn's storyline actually been re written to something important, or they just had him chilling with poe most of the movie, or fuck have him actually escape in the pod at the start and have him do a journey that brings him back would have been more interesting than what they gave us. As it stands now the "rushed" section of the movie (which included most of the early to mid action sequences, comedy, etc...) can be removed and the movie would be better for it.
Dont get me wrong. This is star wars. I still had fun watching it, I still tell my friends that they need to see it. It is not as good as the professional reviewers are hyping it to be. this is at best like 5th or 6th in the line of star wars movies.
On December 19 2017 11:30 ragz_gt wrote: Kylo's direction going forward, and for as silly his interstellar skype session with Rey is, it makes both more intriguing character. Finn's role as 2nd protag even though they couldn't figure out quite what to do with him yet. Also, the biggest difference for me is while ESB ending gives a sense of faint hope, TLJ feels more hopelessness even though characters keep mentioning hope, which is only achieved by invalidate the ending on OT, in a "been there, done that, got the scar" but nothing really changed way. I'm very intrigued by how 9 would resolve it.
If you want ignore all that then sure it would be a crappy movie, as would any movie.
So it's the same situation just more hopeless, with a confused secondary protagonist.
Fine, I'll admit to those things. That doesn't change ANY of what I said before, this story is completely unoriginal and it suffers from all kinds of glaring other problems that have already been brought up, your entire defense to my point is that the interstellar skype session was silly and that Finn is a confused character and that the ending is hopeless. That's not a defense at all.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
This isn't just me generalizing to make a point. I noticed the pattern while I was in the damn theater, on my first viewing on opening day without watching a single trailer or preview going into it, and it made the entire movie predictable in a laughable and cringey way at times. Just because you didn't notice it right away doesn't mean it isn't there.
Mark my words. This movie is going to get roasted later on down the line as more and more people figure out that it's an entirely wasted story. It doesn't build on anything that Force Awakens set up for it, and what plot DOES exist in the movie is completely taken from the Original Trilogy.
The only thing we have to really look forward to in Ep 9 is the Rey and Kylo Ren plot and honestly since that whole plot is just a retelling of the Anakin Skywalker story all over again it frankly just frustrates the hell out of me.
And no, it is not a contradiction to complain about destroying the canon. If Disney wanted to rip up the canon, they could at least do so while telling a new story. These movies are literally repeats of the last story just being told with new characters that don't get any development and a new conflict that barely gets any kind of exposition. FFS I had to read portions of a side book to understand why the Resistance seemingly has no military power despite winning the Galactic Civil War (It's because of a treaty and military dearmament agreement signed after the battle of Jaku)
I'm fine with Disney wanting to go and write a new trilogy and make up whatever random stuff they want, but they could at least do it while telling an original story. Rogue One was 50x more original than either of these movies have been, and that's despite being a side story that only serves to explain the Death Star's weakness.
I'm not criticizing this movie just to be an impossible to please Star Wars fan, I'm criticizing this movie because it deserves to be criticized.
Finn wakes up and immediatly wants to go after Rey. If you argue that he didn't want to go after her, then he wanted to just gtfo but got caught by "girl". I guess the lesson Finn learns according to you he somehow gets when Girl tells him exactly this when he doesn't have a choice anymore anyway because Girl stopped him after he made the choice to rather die then let the ones he hates win? Oh, and then she kisses him because, why not. You don't even know if he learned anything yet. You assume it... Lesson learned by speeder crash and one sentence by "Girl"? I hope Fins character is a bit stronger than that but i doubt it...
Rey got the truth about her parents from Kylo, due to a Snoke induced connection? This doesn't seem to be a trustworthy source. But her not having Special parents doesn't bother me at all. As i said, the Ben/Rey interactions were pretty much the best stuff in the movie.
No General disagreement on Poe. To bad the story that lead to him "growing" was the by far worst part of the movie. The plan was reckless but not any more reckless than the other "plans" from Ep 4-7 and the reason why this plan even come to be also seemed, uhm, reckless? Whats the reasoning behind: "Lets not tell our highest ranking Pilot(?) that is seen as a hero by much of the crew our plan? No, better make him believe that we just cruise towards death because he needs to learn that following orders/trust his superiors is important - right after he got a knew superiour he didn't know?" A bit of a strange time to teach someone his place/a lesson
Btw: This probably was better than EP 1-2 and maybe 3... But you should see me rant about these :p... "I don't like sand"... I honestly don't remember most of 3 so it was probably not as insulting as 1 and 2 .
My reading of Finn's arc was that in the beginning he was ready to bail out on the Resistance (or is it now the Rebel Alliance again?) in order to go after Rey. The casino sequence isn't quite as pivotal to the film, but it's pivotal to him. He meets a contrasting viewpoint in DJ's lack of moral guidelines, but in the end decides to affirm his loyalty to a cause that's bigger than him. The movie doesn't say that he's on the fence, he's taken his side.
There's a small chance that Kylo Ren is lying to Rey in order to further his own goals, but I didn't find anything to really support this in the movie. Their shared Force connection after Snoke's death seems to imply that there's something more in store for them, but Rey literally closes the door on him, so I'm not really sure.
Poe disobeyed a direct order from Leia, causing most of the Resistance's fighter pilots to die. He's demoted and Holdo feels that he's too hotheaded to be trusted with the survival of the entire fleet. For Poe, it's about learning to see consequences for his actions, and learning to look at the bigger picture instead of his own glory.
On December 19 2017 13:54 LegalLord wrote: Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
Well, rather sadly, our geek community is easily polarized and has in the past done plenty of things like reviewing bombing stuff on Steam.
Also, I would imagine that there's quite a bit of selection bias going on with the user reviews, because only those who feel especially strongly about the movie will bother to leave a review.
Rogue one and TFA scored 87-88 so clearly your last theory is wrong.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the majority of people ACTUALLY DISLIKED the last jedi? If this thread is anything to go by, that seems pretty accurate.
In pretty much all of my social circles and gamer chats, the majority disliked the film, stands to reason that it's RT score is low then.
No need to jump to conclusions about "review bombing".
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love to people that already know (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
On December 19 2017 13:54 LegalLord wrote: Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
Well, rather sadly, our geek community is easily polarized and has in the past done plenty of things like reviewing bombing stuff on Steam.
Also, I would imagine that there's quite a bit of selection bias going on with the user reviews, because only those who feel especially strongly about the movie will bother to leave a review.
Rogue one and TFA scored 87-88 so clearly your last theory is wrong.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the majority of people ACTUALLY DISLIKED the last jedi? If this thread is anything to go by, that seems pretty accurate.
In pretty much all of my social circles and gamer chats, the majority disliked the film, stands to reason that it's RT score is low then.
No need to jump to conclusions about "review bombing".
It is more than a little ironic that for someone accusing me of jumping to conclusions, you failed to notice that I only pointed out that our community has in the past review bombed on Steam. I stop short of saying that TLJ is being reviewed bomb because I quite honestly have no idea if that is happening.
Moreover, seeing as the rotten tomato user score is at 56% or so, I think that if you are going to put any authority in the rotten tomato ranking, the majority of people actually liked TLJ. I hope we can both agree that majority is a number above 50%?
My point though is really that any open review system on the internet is not really representative of anything since it is not an accurate way of collecting data. Sure it's a fair point to note that the score is much lower than TFA or RO, but then if you really want to do that comparison, RO only got about 80k reviews while TLJ is now above 100 thousand just 3 days after release. Realistically speaking the ease at which anyone can go put up a review simply means that the data is going to be pretty unreliable - a person could literally feel angry that his fan fiction about Finn marrying Poe did not happen, and left a 1 star review which then pulls down the score.
As for your social circles and chats, that's just anecdotal. I can easily point out that in my case everyone around me who loves star wars also loves TLJ. Anecdotal evidence is about as useful as midicholrines... and sand.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
You're talking about SPECIFIC events with specific characters in the movie. Your argument would be akin to saying that Starkiller Base isn't the same plot point as the Death Star because the Death Star was a space station and Starkiller base is a planet, or that in the Death Star they blew it up with a Proton Torpedo and Starkiller base was blown up with Detonators. The general purpose of both in the story are exactly the same.
just not by a best friend (since no character is that well developed in this movie in the first place) and it does happen from a character of questionable morals that is met only a short time before.
There are actually people deciaring their love for each other + Show Spoiler +
Rose and Finn
so that right there is a perfect parallel, thanks.
There might not be people getting hands lopped off, but: Rey + Show Spoiler +
DOES lose her light saber the same way Luke does in a showdown with the bad guy. Bonus points for it being the EXACT SAME LIGHT SABER
There are actually people being frozen! Funnily enough + Show Spoiler +
Leia in space before she flies back to the ship
And you're also forgetting all of the other point for point parallels stolen from the other movies.
Rey goes to find Luke on a distant remote world only to be turned away at first, and then leaves before she receives significant training but not before encountering the area that is strong with Dark Side of the Force and being forced to confront images of herself
The battle on a white world that involves an overpowering force of AT-AT walkers and a small Rebel force consisting mostly of outmatched and obsolete speeders
A throne room scene copied nearly identically from Return of the Jedi to serve as the confrontation with the Elder bad guy, and where the younger bad guy destroys him
Now that last scene despite being the most egregious example of copy/pasta is the only one that provides any REAL deviation because of when it happens and the motivations involved.
The rest of the movie follows the entire plot of Empire from start to end. (Think broadly about where the movie starts, what happens in the middle and where it ends) Hint: + Show Spoiler +
everyone escapes safely aboard the Millenium Falcon to fight another day except for one main character who gets left with an uncertain ending
Meaning that going into Episode 9 there is only one REAL plot worth attention that has anything resembling originality. Only I could talk for days about how poorly written, and developed this plot is just on the merits of what's been shown in the last two movies.
So no, I'm not unsure or misinformed of what I am talking about. I understand the plots of these 5 movies VERY well, and I do enough story writing myself to know a rehashed story with a different paint job when I see one.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
I know you're coming from a good place, but sorry I really don't think that the following points are part of a "better scenario":
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
[This is basically fanfiction quality romance]
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo)
[Introducing Mara Jade is not going to make the story simple. In fact it's going to open up a huge barrel of questions - such as needing to explain who Mara Jade is, and not to mention why on earth Luke and Mara agreed to dump their baby daughter on Jakku]
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
While I am pretty sure the above is enough to deal with what you're trying to argue. I do have a really minor quibble:
A throne room scene copied nearly identically from Return of the Jedi to serve as the confrontation with the Elder bad guy, and where the younger bad guy destroys him
is really skewed, since you are ignoring the really important issue of motivation since + Show Spoiler +
the younger bad guy is killing the elder bad guy to take over him, and not to save the good guy or redeem himself
. To me, this is a great example of how you are taking scenes, completely ignoring important elements that don't suit your argument, and then just insisting that TLJ is derivative.
I imagine you do enough story writing to understand the important of motive in a scene.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
I'm responding to your argument on its own standards. You made the claim that they are literally the same plot points, and I am showing you that they are not. I don't really think I am cherry picking since this is your argument right? Even now you are saying that "this movie is just like Empire".
Yeah, I think that Han and Kenobi basically filled the same roles in ANH and TFA - I do think that TFA was a lot more derivative. We are discussing TLJ though.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
I'm responding to your argument on its own standards. You made the claim that they are literally the same plot points, and I am showing you that they are not. I don't really think I am cherry picking since this is your argument right? Even now you are saying that "this movie is just like Empire".
Yeah, I think that Han and Kenobi basically filled the same roles in ANH and TFA - I do think that TFA was a lot more derivative. We are discussing TLJ though.
Ok and what is your counter to everything I've said about TLJ? Do you deny that the two movies have plots as similar as Force Awakens which to use YOUR words are derivative of one another?
Better question, do you think that it's a good or a bad thing that movies bad under the same franchise tag ARE derivative of each other?
If you want to argue a point that counters mine, feel free to use whatever language you want to use, it doesn't change anything.
This movie isn't an original story, which makes all of the complaints other people have about it even more damning. I could write pages upon pages about just how bad the story that's actually being told is, (even going back to Force Awakens) but it's all the worse when it's just a retelling of an already existing story that people already love.
On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars. It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov) I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to.
The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies.
So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine.
But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side. - TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy. - TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes. - TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems - etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler +
They can't go to lightspeed
....
I think you really need to take a step back and re-analyse what you are writing here. Starting with looking up the meaning of the word "literally".
For something that is "literally" ripping off the Empire Strikes back, there is a conspicuous lack of people being frozen in carbonite (Han), people being betrayed by their best friends (Lando), people declaring their love each other (Leia), people getting their hands lobbed off (Luke), people being told that they have been fighting their fathers (Luke).
Be a little honest here - I just listed some of the MAJOR plot points of Empire and none of them appear in this "literal" rip off.
Come on man.
ROFL ok. Spoken like someone that doesn't understand the phrase plot point.
...[snip]
These are your own exact words earlier on "The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy".
I'm just holding you to the standard which you have set. And by that standard, I think your notion that being shot out into space with being frozen in carbonite are literally the same... well that sort of speaks for itself doesn't it?
You're cherry picking and you know it. You haven't even tried to address my actual point.
Your argument is just that "No you're wrong because no one got frozen in carbonite" as if that changes anything about how unoriginal or how much this movie is just like Empire Strikes Back.
I suppose you'd also refuse to acknowledge that Han Solo and Obiwan Kenobi are basically the same character in A New Hope and Force Awakens on the basis that one of them uses a light saber and one of them uses a blaster.
You're hiding from my argument, you aren't refuting it, and you're not fooling any one.
I'm responding to your argument on its own standards. You made the claim that they are literally the same plot points, and I am showing you that they are not. I don't really think I am cherry picking since this is your argument right? Even now you are saying that "this movie is just like Empire".
Yeah, I think that Han and Kenobi basically filled the same roles in ANH and TFA - I do think that TFA was a lot more derivative. We are discussing TLJ though.
Ok and what is your counter to everything I've said about TLJ? Do you deny that the two movies have plots as similar as Force Awakens which to use YOUR words are derivative of one another?
Better question, do you think that it's a good or a bad thing that movies bad under the same franchise tag ARE derivative of each other?
If you want to argue a point that counters mine, feel free to use whatever language you want to use, it doesn't change anything.
This movie isn't an original story, which makes all of the complaints other people have about it even more damning. I could write pages upon pages about just how bad the story that's actually being told is, (even going back to Force Awakens) but it's all the worse when it's just a retelling of an already existing story that people already love.
I have actually pointed out the new and significant stuff which TLJ does in an earlier post. I'm sorry but you will have to understand my reluctance in repeating myself. I think you could at least extend the courtesy of reading what I mentioned back there, and responding to those points.
You cherry picked specific moments such as the "I love you" scene in order to justify why the movies were different, and then refuted my obviously sarcastic claim that the two were the same as though that somehow strengthens your argument.
Since you don't want to actually acknowledge any of the tangible reasons why the plots of the two movies are the same besides just nitpicking details there's no point in trying to continue this conversation with you.
I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
On December 19 2017 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: LOL. OK.
You cherry picked specific moments such as the "I love you" scene in order to justify why the movies were different, and then refuted my obviously sarcastic claim that the two were the same as though that somehow strengthens your argument.
Since you don't want to actually acknowledge any of the tangible reasons why the plots of the two movies are the same besides just nitpicking details there's no point in trying to continue this conversation with you.
I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
Could you please go back to my comment which you originally responded to? Can you also stop throwing around the accusation of cherry picking while at the same time ignoring my earlier points.
Plus can you calm down. I am sure we can have a civilized discussion. I am finding it very difficult to differentiate between what is "obviously sarcastic" because every single line in your post seems to be baiting for a response from me.
Fundamentally I think that any critique about TLJ being derivative about Empire needs to first point out what exactly was Empire about.
Otherwise everything just gets reduce to this sort of pointless superficial comparisons like "there was a white planet!" (which well begs the question of whether Starkiller base, having snow, was derivative of Hoth) - and even at that level, the comparison really doesn't hold up since for every similarity there are plenty of other differences too.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
I know you're coming from a good place, but sorry I really don't think that the following points are part of a "better scenario":
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
[This is basically fanfiction quality romance]
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo)
[Introducing Mara Jade is not going to make the story simple. In fact it's going to open up a huge barrel of questions - such as needing to explain who Mara Jade is, and not to mention why on earth Luke and Mara agreed to dump their baby daughter on Jakku]
Not saying i would have preferred this version, but the introducing of Mara Jade would have been the way i would have taken it, you could quite easily have done that and then made more of a connection based movie between Rey and Luke, thus giving the ultimate heartache of Luke (her father) dying 3/4 of the way through the film then comes Rey "tempted by the darkside" because of huge rage in her life. I bet alot of Star Wars nerds would have been happy if the extended universe lore was being used and Mara Jade existed! I for one would have preferred a story with a better connection between Luke & Rey and Luke + Show Spoiler +
dying properly, not just a cliche kindy at peace with the world after not even wining a battle vs Kylo Ren or changing anyone
Still there is episode 9, another director (yes same as episode 7 but still a new director) to pick up and we saw Rian take it in a complete opposite direction, what is the bet we get episode 7.5 and a completely other direction again and confusing people again.
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote: I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason.
....
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
I know you're coming from a good place, but sorry I really don't think that the following points are part of a "better scenario":
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
[This is basically fanfiction quality romance]
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo)
[Introducing Mara Jade is not going to make the story simple. In fact it's going to open up a huge barrel of questions - such as needing to explain who Mara Jade is, and not to mention why on earth Luke and Mara agreed to dump their baby daughter on Jakku]
Not saying i would have preferred this version, but the introducing of Mara Jade would have been the way i would have taken it, you could quite easily have done that and then made more of a connection based movie between Rey and Luke, thus giving the ultimate heartache of Luke (her father) dying 3/4 of the way through the film then comes Rey "tempted by the darkside" because of huge rage in her life. I bet alot of Star Wars nerds would have been happy if the extended universe lore was being used and Mara Jade existed! I for one would have preferred a story with a better connection between Luke & Rey and Luke + Show Spoiler +
dying properly, not just a cliche kindy at peace with the world after not even wining a battle vs Kylo Ren or changing anyone
Still there is episode 9, another director (yes same as episode 7 but still a new director) to pick up and we saw Rian take it in a complete opposite direction, what is the bet we get episode 7.5 and a completely other direction again and confusing people again.
Well I really hope that the direction doesn't change again. Episode 8 is what it is, and I think that Abrams has enough professional respect to try and work within what 8 has already done. Rian did pull the carpet for a few things, but overall he also still adhered to what was sent in place in TFA.
I personally wouldn't have minded Mara Jade and the EU too, but the problem with the EU is that fans are split on that too - when TFA came out there were plenty of people going "Rey is another skywalker? why is the whole galaxy only Skywalkers and Solos". Heck, there are people in this thread right now throwing up a fuss that TLJ is Empire in another coat of paint - introducing Mara Jade for this purpose will just make that crowd unhappy (again).
Which is true, but Ben Solo is hardly original anyway is he, he is a bad guy because he is extremely confused and if Snoke was still alive you could have bet on it ending exactly the way it did in ESB xD
But anyway, i just didn't like character development in 8 and couldn't connect with Rey at all due to imo very sub par acting and story for her. I mean JJ can take her to new heights in 9 and i anticipate he will as the few clips in episode 7 with her made me like her character alot. She could also still be confirmed as a skywalker which would be hilarious but i too hope she isn't.
To add i am not looking forward to Rian's new triology if this is what he came up with after following episode 7 xD Also i might be too harsh on Rian, it might justs be Disney who are forcing the similarities between the old movies and the sub par scripts.
On December 19 2017 18:49 Pandemona wrote: Which is true, but Ben Solo is hardly original anyway is he, he is a bad guy because he is extremely confused and if Snoke was still alive you could have bet on it ending exactly the way it did in ESB xD
But anyway, i just didn't like character development in 8 and couldn't connect with Rey at all due to imo very sub par acting and story for her. I mean JJ can take her to new heights in 9 and i anticipate he will as the few clips in episode 7 with her made me like her character alot. She could also still be confirmed as a skywalker which would be hilarious but i too hope she isn't.
To add i am not looking forward to Rian's new triology if this is what he came up with after following episode 7 xD Also i might be too harsh on Rian, it might justs be Disney who are forcing the similarities between the old movies and the sub par scripts.
I think that Kylo got quite a bit of a good character development in 8. His motives are now more complex (plus he is his own agent now and still willingly goes on, he's not that confused anymore), and it's not just "I want to be eeeeevil" which he was in TFA. Unfortunately it was sort of at the expense of Rey, because she is still a bit flat as a character.
Rain might actually better off doing something completely on his own, since TLJ definitely had a very unique spin on the franchise. In this way, I don't quite agree that there are similarities being forced between the old movies. I think Rain took TLJ, and Star Wars in a new direction with his movie, and while I can understand that some people might not like the new direction, I really don't think that there are forced similarities since fundamentally a new direction is being taken.
On December 19 2017 17:17 Manit0u wrote: No. I am just disappointed that it took me literally 5 minutes to come up with a rough sketch of a better scenario for this movie. What the hell are they paying their screen writers and directors for?
Now turn your rough scenario into a 90-120 page screenplay. Note that I'm not saying you're not allowed to criticize the movie if you can't write screenplays, but the writers are getting paid to do exactly that, and it's a difficult job.
On December 19 2017 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
The components look the same to you, so what was the reason for that? Is it on purpose? Was it an accident? What was Rian Johnson trying to achieve, if anything?
e:
Where's the comparison of the themes of the movies, and the motives of the characters? You know... the substantive stuff that matters.
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ That's pretty much what I'm trying to get at.
On December 19 2017 17:56 Vindicare605 wrote: I'm trying to argue that two cars are the same because of all of the components on the inside of the car, and you're too busy gawking at the tail lights to understand.
The components look the same to you, so what was the reason for that? Is it on purpose? Was it an accident? What was Rian Johnson trying to achieve, if anything?
Loathed as I am to comment while Vindicare605 isn't around, and much as I hate analogies -
I think that comparing components in a car really misses the point, because obviously, all cars are going to have the same basic components.
You are also going to miss the point that you are comparing a race car and the sort of car that your aunt uses to buy groceries simply because both have an engine.
Which is why I cannot quite agree with the comparisons being drawn - there was a duel in a throne room, there was a white planet with ATATs, there was a chase because someone could not jump to light speed, there was some training under a mentor on a remote location.
Where's the comparison of the themes of the movies, and the motives of the characters? You know... the substantive stuff that matters.
Issue is, with Mark being so annoyed and saddened, 100% Disney will force JJ into using him for the third movie (if he isn't being anyway) and we are going to get a force ghost Luke through out the film talking to Rey just like Yoda did to Luke xD
Damn that film going to be very predictable it seems
On December 19 2017 19:33 Pandemona wrote: Issue is, with Mark being so annoyed and saddened, 100% Disney will force JJ into using him for the third movie (if he isn't being anyway) and we are going to get a force ghost Luke through out the film talking to Rey just like Yoda did to Luke xD
Damn that film going to be very predictable it seems
I think that this was going to be inevitable anyway - because TLJ was filmed not expecting Carrie Fischer to pass away, and not being able to be in the third movie. If they want some original trilogy presence in the next movie, then it'd have to be Luke.
Hmm i guess that is true. Just with them killing him and her being ermmm inactive shall we say, it means the only presence is Chewy who got left to be a comedy input only in the last film with those stupid horrible looking birds which were just awful CGI when they moved because they were stupid teddy/puppet things xD Poor Chewy, with no Han around he just gets put out to the background even though the guy is hurting and had a big ish role in the last film
On December 19 2017 19:42 Pandemona wrote: Hmm i guess that is true. Just with them killing him and her being ermmm inactive shall we say, it means the only presence is Chewy who got left to be a comedy input only in the last film with those stupid horrible looking birds which were just awful CGI when they moved because they were stupid teddy/puppet things xD Poor Chewy, with no Han around he just gets put out to the background even though the guy is hurting and had a big ish role in the last film
Well they could go dig up Lando (actually please don't)
Give me Chewy going to kill Kylo Ren as the ending to next film and i'll be happy haha! + Show Spoiler +
Rey to busy reading the books she will never understand because she never did any training. Then Finn just sat in the ship waiting for Rose to wake up. Poe is thinking of how he can fly his spaceship to save the day. Leia floating around in space. BB8 transforming into Optimus Prime etc etc
Now that a couple of days have passed since I saw it I'm actually starting to get a bit more disappointed in the movie. There were some really cool scenes which initially saved it for me (specifically the Rey + Kylo team-up fight) and I'd definitely enjoy watching it again for some of those scenes, but overall there's just too much shit that went horribly wrong. Also while I agree TFA wasn't great, I hate how Rian basically shit on all of the plot developments and setup from that movie.
The entire setup of TFA led to finding Luke who was supposed to help the resistance and/or train Rey, although Luke just ends up being a grumpy old hermit who apparently didn't want to be found despite leaving behind a map...
So that entire buildup was just wasted and on top of that Luke doesn't even get a cool fight scene. He dodges one or two attacks at the end before revealing that he is using a Force Projection so we're like "oh cool, I guess he isn't gonna put his foot up Kylo's ass". Also the Force Projection completely nullifies how cool Luke was two minutes earlier when he survived the cannon/gun fire, because I honestly thought he learned some next level shit and was about to start busting some caps after that. But nope, he didn't block that shit with the force he just WASN'T ACTUALLY THERE LOL
edit: Seriously though the Rey + Kylo team-up was one of the coolest scenes in any Star Wars movie (with the exception of Snokes lame death. Let's just pretend Snoke had more plot development and a less lame death and the scene is better). Bad guy teaming up with the good guy? Has that ever happened? A second after it's done Kylo is like "JK guys". They could have taken the series in a direction never seen. I guess with Snoke dead Kylo can't really flip sides or there would be no bad guys left.
Literally no development for Snoke btw. Who is he is, where is he from. Why wasn't he a thing in episode 4-6, he looks fucking old so i'm assuming he was alive in that timeline. Maybe he was already a sith, but lower on the totem pole? Did he immediately take over when Vader and the Emperor died? Who knows! I don't.
I agree about the kylo - rey team up - the setting (with the red tones) was also great. It was also pretty great that in the lead up and the aftermath, you aren't really sure where Kylo's loyalties lie.
Snoke though, if you look back at Episode 5/6 people just accepted Palpatine as being the Emperor. There wasn't really a need to know further than that, since Vader was supposed to be the main focus.
But the way that worked was good, minus the really bad cgi of him throwing him haha. Was fun story line between those two, but it same again right. Big bad guy > apprentice > teaches him > apprentice kills master > then what happens who knows, up to JJ.
I liked that fight scene but i was conflicted because i was like don't trust him Rey, he is bad, why can't you hate him and cut his arm off so he can be turned into darth vadar or something :3 I have made the thread spoiler "ok" now, no need for spoiler tags, movie has been out long enough and in all fairness, eveyrone who is commenting has watched the film or it seems that way. Page 20 onwards, no need for spoiler tags
On December 19 2017 20:14 levelping wrote: I agree about the kylo - rey team up - the setting (with the red tones) was also great. It was also pretty great that in the lead up and the aftermath, you aren't really sure where Kylo's loyalties lie.
Snoke though, if you look back at Episode 5/6 people just accepted Palpatine as being the Emperor. There wasn't really a need to know further than that, since Vader was supposed to be the main focus.
True. Still wish there was literally any development for Snoke though, but oh well he's dead
Another thing that I liked about the Rey + Kylo fight was actually seeing the Imperial Royal Guards in action. I remember reading their lore once and the training they go through is interesting.
On December 19 2017 19:54 TheEmulator wrote: Now that a couple of days have passed since I saw it I'm actually starting to get a bit more disappointed in the movie. There were some really cool scenes which initially saved it for me (specifically the Rey + Kylo team-up fight) and I'd definitely enjoy watching it again for some of those scenes, but overall there's just too much shit that went horribly wrong. Also while I agree TFA wasn't great, I hate how Rian basically shit on all of the plot developments and setup from that movie.
The entire setup of TFA led to finding Luke who was supposed to help the resistance and/or train Rey, although Luke just ends up being a grumpy old hermit who apparently didn't want to be found despite leaving behind a map...
So that entire buildup was just wasted and on top of that Luke doesn't even get a cool fight scene. He dodges one or two attacks at the end before revealing that he is using a Force Projection so we're like "oh cool, I guess he isn't gonna put his foot up Kylo's ass". Also the Force Projection completely nullifies how cool Luke was two minutes earlier when he survived the cannon/gun fire, because I honestly thought he learned some next level shit and was about to start busting some caps after that. But nope, he didn't block that shit with the force he just WASN'T ACTUALLY THERE LOL
edit: Seriously though the Rey + Kylo team-up was one of the coolest scenes in any Star Wars movie (with the exception of Snokes lame death. Let's just pretend Snoke had more plot development and a less lame death and the scene is better). Bad guy teaming up with the good guy? Has that ever happened? A second after it's done Kylo is like "JK guys". They could have taken the series in a direction never seen. I guess with Snoke dead Kylo can't really flip sides or there would be no bad guys left.
Literally no development for Snoke btw. Who is he is, where is he from. Why wasn't he a thing in episode 4-6, he looks fucking old so i'm assuming he was alive in that timeline. Maybe he was already a sith, but lower on the totem pole? Did he immediately take over when Vader and the Emperor died? Who knows! I don't.
The Disney cannon (which makes no sense) says that the emperor made plans for his death that would mean the empire destroys itself and hopefully the rebels along with it. The empire stupidly follows this plan destroying some of its own worlds to create "fear" and a final battle takes place over Jakku but the rebels survive instead of being destroyed with the empire.
A few imperial survivors then flee to the unknown regions to start again and somewhere after that Snoke takes over and they become the first order.
On December 19 2017 19:54 TheEmulator wrote: Now that a couple of days have passed since I saw it I'm actually starting to get a bit more disappointed in the movie. There were some really cool scenes which initially saved it for me (specifically the Rey + Kylo team-up fight) and I'd definitely enjoy watching it again for some of those scenes, but overall there's just too much shit that went horribly wrong. Also while I agree TFA wasn't great, I hate how Rian basically shit on all of the plot developments and setup from that movie.
The entire setup of TFA led to finding Luke who was supposed to help the resistance and/or train Rey, although Luke just ends up being a grumpy old hermit who apparently didn't want to be found despite leaving behind a map...
So that entire buildup was just wasted and on top of that Luke doesn't even get a cool fight scene. He dodges one or two attacks at the end before revealing that he is using a Force Projection so we're like "oh cool, I guess he isn't gonna put his foot up Kylo's ass". Also the Force Projection completely nullifies how cool Luke was two minutes earlier when he survived the cannon/gun fire, because I honestly thought he learned some next level shit and was about to start busting some caps after that. But nope, he didn't block that shit with the force he just WASN'T ACTUALLY THERE LOL
edit: Seriously though the Rey + Kylo team-up was one of the coolest scenes in any Star Wars movie (with the exception of Snokes lame death. Let's just pretend Snoke had more plot development and a less lame death and the scene is better). Bad guy teaming up with the good guy? Has that ever happened? A second after it's done Kylo is like "JK guys". They could have taken the series in a direction never seen. I guess with Snoke dead Kylo can't really flip sides or there would be no bad guys left.
Literally no development for Snoke btw. Who is he is, where is he from. Why wasn't he a thing in episode 4-6, he looks fucking old so i'm assuming he was alive in that timeline. Maybe he was already a sith, but lower on the totem pole? Did he immediately take over when Vader and the Emperor died? Who knows! I don't.
The Disney cannon (which makes no sense) says that the emperor made plans for his death that would mean the empire destroys itself and hopefully the rebels along with it. The empire stupidly follows this plan destroying some of its own worlds to create "fear" and a final battle takes place over Jakku but the rebels survive instead of being destroyed with the empire.
A few imperial survivors then flee to the unknown regions to start again and somewhere after that Snoke takes over and they become the first order.
Well the fight scene is different from the vader-luke-emperor one in ROTJ for a few important reasons:
I think Kylo's motivations are different from Vader's in ROTJ. Vader was just redemption (which meant that Luke succeeded in his plan) and saving his son. Kylo on the other hand - the movie first sets it up to suggest that he might be redeemed to save Rey. Then it subverts that expectation by showing that Kylo rather than being redeemed, killed Snoke to basically further his own agenda. Plus this agenda is not evil (because he wants to kill the sith) but rather some sort of scorched earth policy to end the past and then create a new order. Rey actually fails in her plan too.
Btw thanks for putting the general spoiler warning. It was so difficult to dump spoiler tags in each post.
Yeah see that story line for Kylo was ok, him wanting to be in charge himself now and be the ruler makes sense and do things his way, i get that. Just the way that happened with Snoke was bad. The fight scene and relation with Rey was ok, minus the way Rey got into the ship and to that moment was very rushed and bad. The rest played out well, the best part of the movie everyone says without doubt i can see.
Think like others said, an extra 30 minutes in this film could have helped redeem it. Add more Luke Rey story, maybe some more training after the "You looked at the dark side and didn't fight it, what" then nothing kinda happened after, could have maybe added 10-15 minutes there and actually put some training in.
I am somewhat surprised by the discontent with the movie
Of course anyone has its own opinion, I'm not trying to argue about specifics, I simply am left a bit astonished by how strongly many people feel (especially after TFA, which in my opinion was not as good as this one)
Somehow I wonder: has there been (recently) either a sequel of a successful franchise, or just a *very* hyped movie - show, which did live up to general expectations?
Eh I feel like if people were more honest, they'd be able to just admit that they had their own idea of how the plot should have gone (like mara jade) and tlj gave them something else.
This is fine, since everyone can have their own head cannon or plot, but what I don't understand is how people then bend themselves out of shape trying to say that the movie is objectively terrible or worse than the prequels.
Something not meeting your own fan theory is one thing, worse than prequels is something else.
On December 19 2017 20:50 VHbb wrote: Somehow I wonder: has there been (recently) either a sequel of a successful franchise, or just a *very* hyped movie - show, which did live up to general expectations?
Maybe some people just want a bit more story/sense in a star wars movie than in fast&furios15 or transformers number 9... Its not what they did with the characters thats pissing people off, its how they did it.
On December 19 2017 20:50 VHbb wrote: Somehow I wonder: has there been (recently) either a sequel of a successful franchise, or just a *very* hyped movie - show, which did live up to general expectations?
On December 19 2017 21:13 Velr wrote: Maybe some people just want a bit more story/sense in a star wars movie than in fast&furios15 or transformers number 9... Its not what they did with the characters thats pissing people off, its how they did it.
Yeah see - there were some non-nonsensical bits. We can all accept that the movie has a weird sense of time, plus leia flying and rose kissing finn were just weird.
But this doesn't make it transformers level of horrible. Hair brained schemes that don't make much sense aren't exactly new in Star Wars either - go watch ROTJ and behold the truly horrible plan to rescue Han.
On December 19 2017 21:13 Velr wrote: Maybe some people just want a bit more story/sense in a star wars movie than in fast&furios15 or transformers number 9... Its not what they did with the characters thats pissing people off, its how they did it.
Yeah plus add in Rey came across as the worst actress in all of human existence it felt like to me at least
On December 19 2017 21:13 Velr wrote: Maybe some people just want a bit more story/sense in a star wars movie than in fast&furios15 or transformers number 9... Its not what they did with the characters thats pissing people off, its how they did it.
Yeah plus add in Rey came across as the worst actress in all of human existence it felt like to me at least
Probably that detail won't make much difference with good script. But when everything is so messy...yea, she did mediocre acting at least. On the other hand it's hard to find Gal Gadot for every female character
I think that's at least subjective: to me, Rey's actress is a perfect fit for the role. I'm not sure why Rose kissing Flinn looked weird to you ... I think it's a nice story of two side characters
On December 19 2017 21:28 VHbb wrote: I think that's at least subjective: to me, Rey's actress is a perfect fit for the role. I'm not sure why Rose kissing Flinn looked weird to you ... I think it's a nice story of two side characters
It's not about Rose kissing Fin, it's about empiness of their sub-plot which takes lots of screen time. Besides the whole kissing scene makes 0 sense to me, the worst timings with worst reasoning. Don't get me wrong, I like asian girls, but it went wrong, because WHY WOULD YOU EVER CARE about two people kissing each other (considering we know almost nothing about Fin and nothing at all about those asian girl, I just can't empathize to any of them) in a middle of WAR. Like only these two matters, people literally dying there from both sides.
It's about wasted characters and wasted lore. Honestly I think Fin actor did one the best acting in a movie overall, despite him being useless in this plot and story development.
Maybe my expectation were a bit high, but now we know lots of details about how these movie was made and we can clearly see it was a shitshow due to several big reasons. Yes, for those who got no clue about SW universe at all such movie would be fine. For me - on the other hand quality matters the most.
Just been reading sky news review of the film and i am baffled. He says the director to Star Wars to a new era because he has removed the aspect of good and evil, removed the sith vs jedi and made it a combo of good and evil vs evil and good. I don't know what film he watched. He also praised the worst scene i have seen in a movie, where Luke Skywalker, the greatest jedi of all time, milks a freaking alien cow and drinks the milk in front of Rey! Good lord that was cringey as fuck for cheap laughs.
Then to address the good and evil plus no more sith vs jedi. If it isn't that, what is it? The sith were the bad guys, now Kylo Ren will create a new army and call it something else, so what is the difference? If he doesn't create a new army or doesn't call it anything then it's just pointless? Then the no Jedi part is just not Star Wars right, that is what the film was based on why would you destroy that to then get praised for it? Be like directing a transformers film but having no robots transform and fight because that isn't what transformers are doing now...
Just baffled by some of these reviews is all, they just make me rant because i don't get what they are watching. Like people have pointed out in here, not the flaws in the ability to jump light speed and blowing up a ship. But the 8hour romance added in with the 5 days or so that pass with Rey and Luke doing nothing and the worst part at how it's basically taken all parts of Star Wars and just been a bit "edgy" and reversed the outcomes, without delving into the reasons why.
But surely this movie is the opposite for that though right, they literally could have followed JJ's TFA and made the same sorta film with everyone going "oh i member that from the last trilogy" "oooo death start, i member" but we got something that wasn't even that. So i don't get why they would risk that model doing this what we got, then again in all fairness with the amount of Star Wars, probably doesn't matter how good it is, most people will go and see it. Guess i answered my own question haha xd
On December 19 2017 11:30 ragz_gt wrote: Kylo's direction going forward, and for as silly his interstellar skype session with Rey is, it makes both more intriguing character. Finn's role as 2nd protag even though they couldn't figure out quite what to do with him yet. Also, the biggest difference for me is while ESB ending gives a sense of faint hope, TLJ feels more hopelessness even though characters keep mentioning hope, which is only achieved by invalidate the ending on OT, in a "been there, done that, got the scar" but nothing really changed way. I'm very intrigued by how 9 would resolve it.
If you want ignore all that then sure it would be a crappy movie, as would any movie.
So it's the same situation just more hopeless, with a confused secondary protagonist.
Fine, I'll admit to those things. That doesn't change ANY of what I said before, this story is completely unoriginal and it suffers from all kinds of glaring other problems that have already been brought up, your entire defense to my point is that the interstellar skype session was silly and that Finn is a confused character and that the ending is hopeless. That's not a defense at all.
I wasn't defending anything, all I said was that SW8 isn't as much a rehash as SW7. You either like it or not, I'm not in the business of changing people's taste.
On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do. but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie.
I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one.
I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One.
I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh
Like seriously what were they thinking?
I mean you can dislike the movie or even hate it but it was clearly not a pile of crap, on it's own it's a pretty competent movie with some overstretch moments, probably to many characters, some toy selling characters and a bit of incoherence in the plot but nothing particularly jarring. If it wasn't Star wars almost no one would say it's a trash film, it's full of amazing performance, a very good cinematography and soundtrack, there is some great characters building between Kylo and Rey and overall it's still a pretty compelling and logical plot. It's two thing to hate it as the continuation of the Star wars story and to hate it has a movie. Of course you can dislike the movie but it's not like it was Jupiter Ascending of some other disastrous blockbuster movie. I would be very surprise if a lot of casual viewers really hated this movie.
I mean, Leia sky diving in space after getting blown out. Yoda popping up out of nowhere sending thunder to burn the Jedi books. Characters who are absolutely irrelevant getting some sort of scene time. Luke "finding peace" after not defeating Kylo Ren or doing anything actually. Giving Snoke an insane amount of power and then having him die in a shitty way. Cheesy villain lines. Repetitive and unoriginal comedic breaks. Kylo and Rey development had much more potential than was used, imo. List goes on and on.
You can like the movie, and maybe the words "pile of crap" are unfair when you got enjoyment out of it. To me "pile of crap" is the summation of things like the above + my subjective dissatisfaction. That's also exactly how I view Jupiter Ascending btw, so =/.
On December 19 2017 20:50 VHbb wrote: Somehow I wonder: has there been (recently) either a sequel of a successful franchise, or just a *very* hyped movie - show, which did live up to general expectations?
On December 19 2017 20:50 VHbb wrote: Somehow I wonder: has there been (recently) either a sequel of a successful franchise, or just a *very* hyped movie - show, which did live up to general expectations?
Blade Runner 2049
Thanks - that's actually one I have yet to watch A bit sad I missed it at the movie theater, I'll have to find some good quality source..
If you want "mindless fun" that isn't insulting your intelligence too badly: John Wick, Mad max fury road, Valerian and the city of a thousand planets i tought are very entertaining. Not really sequels but Hollywood is barely doing any original blockbusters anymore.
The Issue with the Star Wars franchise is probably that they kinda have to go for this ultra epic storylines. They could just scale down the stuff, take more freedom and do good movies. I didn't really like rogue one but it was allright, why not build a trilogy like that? Have 1-3 big characters and let them have really fleshed out Arcs. Ffs they could just have Fin remain in coma for the entire movie, obviously they had no idea what to do with him except appealing to black/asian markets.
On December 19 2017 20:14 levelping wrote: I agree about the kylo - rey team up - the setting (with the red tones) was also great. It was also pretty great that in the lead up and the aftermath, you aren't really sure where Kylo's loyalties lie.
Snoke though, if you look back at Episode 5/6 people just accepted Palpatine as being the Emperor. There wasn't really a need to know further than that, since Vader was supposed to be the main focus.
That's such a false equivalency. We accepted Palpatine because he was the Emperor of the Galactic Empire, a force that existed since the start of the films and didn't really need an introduction. (And that's ignoring the obvious fact that George Lucas gave us 3 prequel movies to explain what the Empire is and who Palpatine was)
Snoke can't just come in and be Supreme Leader the way Palpatine did in the story because we have this entire already existing universe that he needs to somehow fit into. Palpatine never had that problem, the Empire existed from the moment the series started and he was mentioned as just the leader of it getting little bits of build up in ESB before being fully fleshed out in RoTJ.
The entire sequel trilogy has almost no backstory to the conflict between the First Order and the Resistance first of all, you have to read side books to understand what this conflict even is or how it's different from the Galactic Civil War that was resolved in RoTJ.
But then on top of not providing backround info on The First Order, Snoke seemingly comes out of nowhere to serve as a crucial antagonist since he's responsible for Kylo's turn to the Dark Side. You can't just write him off like he doesn't count since he's a key character in the actual plot of the entire story! Yet all we know about him (again from side books) is that he comes from the Outer Rim.
He's obviously not a Sith, because the Rule of 2 prevents there from being other Sith and Palpatine was known to hunt down his competition in the Dark Side (Clone Wars) yet somehow Snoke escaped his gaze. Why? He's obviously super powerful in the Dark Side and he clearly looks to be old so he was around while Palpatine was alive. What gives?
I don't buy this, "Oh they didn't need to explain snoke" crap. He's a key character in the way the story is set up. If you provide no background for him the entire plot unravels on itself, since without Snoke, Kylo Ren would've never turned evil in the first place.
Also Snoke provides a very big contradiction to the whole explanation of why Rey has force powers. According to this movie, Rey's powers are meant to be the Force balancing out Kylo's turn to the Dark Side. Well how does that explain Snoke? Who is balancing out Snoke's very obvious Dark Side leanings? Are there other Light Side Force users out there that are supposed to be balancing him out?
No, I don't buy any of it. There needs to be some explanation for who the hell Snoke is, either in Ep 9 or at least in a standalone novel or something. You can't just not explain who he is, he's too important to the damn story.
Kylo Ren: "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. Only then can you become what you were meant to be." Yoda literally burned the sacred text.
Both tells you exactly this movie tries to do: no more past, not destroying the legacy but ending it. Who cares about what OT said or didn't say, this is a new story. As long as you are hang on about why Snoke matters or not or what's First Order's back story you would never enjoy the new movie. It's like company that still add new buttons and tabs to visual basic application wrote in 90s and wonders why all new technology doesn't work. To have something more than nostalgia jerkfast at some point enough is enough and you can't just keep dragging all the luggage with you forward. Imagine telling a 14 old year: sure, it's a great movie, but you need watch all theses 20 hours of movies first, and maybe read these 6 books, then you will be ready.
On December 20 2017 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote: No, I don't buy any of it. There needs to be some explanation for who the hell Snoke is, either in Ep 9 or at least in a standalone novel or something. You can't just not explain who he is, he's too important to the damn story.
Now what's the reasoning behind not giving Snoke a more detailed background?
On December 20 2017 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote: No, I don't buy any of it. There needs to be some explanation for who the hell Snoke is, either in Ep 9 or at least in a standalone novel or something. You can't just not explain who he is, he's too important to the damn story.
Now what's the reasoning behind not giving Snoke a more detailed background?
I don't know, I've been seeing a lot of posts on various forums about how "surprising, fresh, risky in a good way and exciting" that just killing off Snoke suddenly was without giving him any proper explanation, as though the shock factor somehow is superior to actual character building.
On December 20 2017 04:52 ragz_gt wrote: Kylo Ren: "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. Only then can you become what you were meant to be." Yoda literally burned the sacred text.
Both tells you exactly this movie tries to do: no more past, not destroying the legacy but ending it. Who cares about what OT said or didn't say, this is a new story. As long as you are hang on about why Snoke matters or not or what's First Order's back story you would never enjoy the new movie. It's like company that still add new buttons and tabs to visual basic application wrote in 90s and wonders why all new technology doesn't work. To have something more than nostalgia jerkfast at some point enough is enough and you can't just keep dragging all the luggage with you forward. Imagine telling a 14 old year: sure, it's a great movie, but you need watch all theses 20 hours of movies first, and maybe read these 6 books, then you will be ready.
No Ray stole the sacred text as you see them on the falcon at the end of the movie.
See I would agree with you but like a lot of the movie it just feels very rubberbandy where x happens and the crowd is made to think that y will happen now but instead the crowd gets faked out for the sake of a fake out and the story returns to the baseline. Snoke dieing is just tieing up a loose story thread for no reason while the first order stays exactly the same. The rebellion becomes 20 people in the back of a tramp freighter but will I presume will have an entire fleet in a day or two making no difference between the start and end of the movie. leia was looking to have died but nope she didn't die. The casino subplot was looking to have failed but nope DJ is there at the end and its okay. The speeder attack was risky and you thought someone was going to sacrifice themselves for the rebellion but nope everyones okay.
The movie can be great on its own while still calling back to previous universes and themes. Avengers 2 somehow managed to do this as joss Weldon's last great labor.
This is a good review that express's what I think better then I could.
On December 20 2017 04:20 Vindicare605 wrote: No, I don't buy any of it. There needs to be some explanation for who the hell Snoke is, either in Ep 9 or at least in a standalone novel or something. You can't just not explain who he is, he's too important to the damn story.
Now what's the reasoning behind not giving Snoke a more detailed background?
I don't know, I've been seeing a lot of posts on various forums about how "surprising, fresh, risky in a good way and exciting" that just killing off Snoke suddenly was without giving him any proper explanation, as though the shock factor somehow is superior to actual character building.
I agree with the sentiment of disappointment surrounding Snoke's lack of character. How did Snoke reach out to Ben Solo in the first place? How did the First Order gain so much influence so quickly? I was hoping that Episode 8 would answer some of these questions that JJ Abrams teased us with in Episode 7, and instead we got upheaval.
The development of Kylo Ren's character was pretty good, by contrast. We learned of Luke's failings and frustration, and although I wanted to see Luke ascend to godhood levels of Force control (as Leia somehow did, apparently), I was equally happy seeing him become a bitter hermit. You can really tell the degree to which he let himself down, and how he believed himself to be beyond redemption.
Another tone that the film did right was establishing the existence of shades of gray. The Jedi and Sith were painted to be ultimate polarities of good and evil. Rey and Kylo see value in a middle ground, which should in theory produce more nuanced characters.
The thing with star wars is that in between trilogies there is always a huge time skip and you just get presented with the status quo and have to buy it. For the prequels that wasn't the biggest problem because we already knew what followed (but even there the gap in between isn't explained, you just have to accept it or not) Now with the sequels it's the same basically. I agree that there could and should have been a bit more to it, but these gaps usually get worked out in other forms like comics, books or animation series (i didn't watch any of that, but i know it's happening)
On December 20 2017 06:18 Excalibur_Z wrote: I agree with the sentiment of disappointment surrounding Snoke's lack of character. How did Snoke reach out to Ben Solo in the first place? How did the First Order gain so much influence so quickly? I was hoping that Episode 8 would answer some of these questions that JJ Abrams teased us with in Episode 7, and instead we got upheaval.
The development of Kylo Ren's character was pretty good, by contrast. We learned of Luke's failings and frustration, and although I wanted to see Luke ascend to godhood levels of Force control (as Leia somehow did, apparently), I was equally happy seeing him become a bitter hermit. You can really tell the degree to which he let himself down, and how he believed himself to be beyond redemption.
Another tone that the film did right was establishing the existence of shades of gray. The Jedi and Sith were painted to be ultimate polarities of good and evil. Rey and Kylo see value in a middle ground, which should in theory produce more nuanced characters.
Except the shades of grey thing was already there in spades in the Star Wars universe. The first real showing of it was Obi-Wan's point of view speech, it then gets even clearer in the Prequels.
One of the greatest parts of the prequels is how Palpatine manipulates the Jedi using their own principles against them in order to beat them. The story is told from the Jedi's perspective obviously, but the Clone Wars later delves more into how common people became dissatisfied and even distrustful of the Jedi order because they were blamed for starting the war in the first place. Then there's the whole scene in Episode 3 where the Jedi ponder over needing to take control of the Senate in order to maintain order while they dispose of the chancellor. It gets glossed over a lot, but there is a lot of moral ambiguity in the prequels.
There was already plenty of metaphorical shades of grey going around long before the sequel trilogy, the sequel trilogy just brought it front and center.
On December 20 2017 06:26 The_Red_Viper wrote: The thing with star wars is that in between trilogies there is always a huge time skip and you just get presented with the status quo and have to buy it. For the prequels that wasn't the biggest problem because we already knew what followed (but even there the gap in between isn't explained, you just have to accept it or not) Now with the sequels it's the same basically. I agree that there could and should have been a bit more to it, but these gaps usually get worked out in other forms like comics, books or animation series (i didn't watch any of that, but i know it's happening)
Well you answered it yourself, the Prequels had their time skip to explain how the story was eventually going to end, but the prequels also did a very significant amount of world building even if you don't include the Clone Wars show. These world building moments were even hated by fans at the time, but they stand as some of the best storytelling that was done in the prequels especially in episode 1.
The prequels built the Galactic Republic and made it feel real! The prequels built the Jedi Order Temple and gave us an idea of how old and ingrained it was and even how they operated on a day to day level. The Jedi introduced the concept of the Sith, and gave them a background story.
They even introduced the concept of Core Worlds, expanded on the lore of the outer rim, and created the concept of the Galactic Economy and even used it as a central plot in one of the movies.
There's a time skip for sure, but unlike the Sequel Trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy actually spent a significant amount of time explaining how the Galaxy was different than in the Original Trilogy. There's almost none of that at all in the sequels.
I am specifically talking about the end of episode 3 and the start of episode 4. That time skip isn't worked out at all, everything in between is mystery and you have to buy that the staus quo of episode 4 makes sense. I can definitely see that it's easier that way, but it's still similar in concept.
The sequels don't have enough worldbuilding in a sense, i think that's true yes. But if that really bothers you is just priority/preference. I think it's actually closer to the OT in that sense, the OT didn't have much either
On December 20 2017 06:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am specifically talking about the end of episode 3 and the start of episode 4. That time skip isn't worked out at all, everything in between is mystery and you have to buy that the staus quo of episode 4 makes sense. I can definitely see that it's easier that way, but it's still similar in concept.
The sequels don't have enough worldbuilding in a sense, i think that's true yes. But if that really bothers you is just priority/preference. I think it's actually closer to the OT in that sense, the OT didn't have much either
The original trilogy had a lot more, and even if it didn't that's not an equivalent statement. It would be like saying "Once upon a time there was a land far far away" is the same kind of story as "And now 30 years later we find our heroes here!" When you reuse old characters in a familiar setting you set yourself up for needing to explain the time skip.
When you have a time skip of 30 years in a sequel, you owe it to your reader/audience to explain at least some of how you got to where you are since the story already has continuity to it.
If Disney wanted to avoid having that storytelling obligation they could have made it an even further time skip and used 100% original characters (ala Star Trek the Next Generation), but they wanted to make sure the original cast was involved, so now we need an explanation for how everyone got to where they are.
So far, they've just scoffed at that obligation in the movies and what bugs me is that they're scoffing at it while simultaenously just retelling the original trilogy's story. It's such weak writing. They're not fulfilling basic storytelling needs while at the same time they're just rehashing old content. It's lame, and no amount of special effects or one liner jokes can make that NOT lame.
On December 20 2017 04:52 ragz_gt wrote: Kylo Ren: "Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. Only then can you become what you were meant to be." Yoda literally burned the sacred text.
Both tells you exactly this movie tries to do: no more past, not destroying the legacy but ending it. Who cares about what OT said or didn't say, this is a new story. As long as you are hang on about why Snoke matters or not or what's First Order's back story you would never enjoy the new movie. It's like company that still add new buttons and tabs to visual basic application wrote in 90s and wonders why all new technology doesn't work. To have something more than nostalgia jerkfast at some point enough is enough and you can't just keep dragging all the luggage with you forward. Imagine telling a 14 old year: sure, it's a great movie, but you need watch all theses 20 hours of movies first, and maybe read these 6 books, then you will be ready.
I have read all your posts and, I dont find a reason for you to be a good movie different from lets forget the past, big paragraphs and zero substance in your comments.
On December 20 2017 06:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am specifically talking about the end of episode 3 and the start of episode 4. That time skip isn't worked out at all, everything in between is mystery and you have to buy that the staus quo of episode 4 makes sense. I can definitely see that it's easier that way, but it's still similar in concept.
The sequels don't have enough worldbuilding in a sense, i think that's true yes. But if that really bothers you is just priority/preference. I think it's actually closer to the OT in that sense, the OT didn't have much either
The original trilogy had a lot more, and even if it didn't that's not an equivalent statement. It would be like saying "Once upon a time there was a land far far away" is the same kind of story as "And now 30 years later we find our heroes here!" When you reuse old characters in a familiar setting you set yourself up for needing to explain the time skip.
When you have a time skip of 30 years in a sequel, you owe it to your reader/audience to explain at least some of how you got to where you are since the story already has continuity to it.
If Disney wanted to avoid having that storytelling obligation they could have made it an even further time skip and used 100% original characters (ala Star Trek the Next Generation), but they wanted to make sure the original cast was involved, so now we need an explanation for how everyone got to where they are.
So far, they've just scoffed at that obligation in the movies and what bugs me is that they're scoffing at it while simultaenously just retelling the original trilogy's story. It's such weak writing. They're not fulfilling basic storytelling needs while at the same time they're just rehashing old content. It's lame, and no amount of special effects or one liner jokes can make that NOT lame.
I wasn't even talking about the exposition, just general worldbuilding. I already agreed that they should have explained a little more, at least enough so the FO makes more sense. With that being said though, i disagree that you need to explain the path of every single OT character to where they are now, that stuff was established well enough.
I also disagree that they are retelling the OT, themes are the same but that's simply star wars. I bet if it didn't use the same themes and go more in the direction of the prequels people would also be mad because it's no "adventure" anymore, etc. It's not only about special effects or "one liners", it's about general filmmaking. Acting, dialogue, cinematography, scene composition, set design, etc. Also writing has a lot of sub categories as well (well i already mentioned dialogue), you make it yourself really easy with these oversimplifications, not only you all the people who bash the new movie. All you and other people care for is such a small part of a movie, a lot of similar complaints could be even used for other star wars movies as well. I'll say it again, but anyone who thinks that TLJ is worse than the prequels simply has no idea what he is talking about quite frankly. That opinion is completely out there and basically only based on 1% the prequels maybe did better (uniqueness)
I think the opinion that its worse then the prequels is wrong in the sense that it does more damage to the universe as a whole then the prequels did, I think jar jar and midoclorians are worse then anything in TLJ, I think if you hyper cut maybe an hour of the second and third movies together and did a few reshoots to make it into coherency then its a good movie.
There are just so many fake twists and gotcha moments in TLJ though. So much time spent on pointless things that don't work and so little time spent on the things that do work. Bad humor in serious moments subverting expectations to subvert expectations instead of creating something of quality.
TFA was a shitton of fan service that would make an anime fan ask to turn it down a bit. But it was the great return to the star wars universe. TLJ was directed written and produced by a guy looking to create a name instead of making a great star wars movie.
Basically I'm at the point where Its fairer to compare TLJ to Thor the dark world. If this is as bad as it gets then things are okay.
Saw it today! pretty stoked and pretty epic all the way, yes many plotholes weird shit and tbh I disliked the girl/Finn subplot but it captured my attention throughout the entire movie, bit suprised that Leia didn't die lol, thought since Carry died she would be a goner.
On December 20 2017 08:39 Sermokala wrote: Basically I'm at the point where Its fairer to compare TLJ to Thor the dark world. If this is as bad as it gets then things are okay.
Good that I’m not the only one to see that connection.
Of course, they might have as shitty a follow-up as Thor and just handwave any existing plot in favor of whatever else the next director wants. But I don’t think Abrams will do that.
On December 19 2017 20:14 levelping wrote: I agree about the kylo - rey team up - the setting (with the red tones) was also great. It was also pretty great that in the lead up and the aftermath, you aren't really sure where Kylo's loyalties lie.
Snoke though, if you look back at Episode 5/6 people just accepted Palpatine as being the Emperor. There wasn't really a need to know further than that, since Vader was supposed to be the main focus.
That's such a false equivalency. We accepted Palpatine because he was the Emperor of the Galactic Empire, a force that existed since the start of the films and didn't really need an introduction. (And that's ignoring the obvious fact that George Lucas gave us 3 prequel movies to explain what the Empire is and who Palpatine was)
Snoke can't just come in and be Supreme Leader the way Palpatine did in the story because we have this entire already existing universe that he needs to somehow fit into.
...
But then on top of not providing backround info on The First Order, Snoke seemingly comes out of nowhere to serve as a crucial antagonist since he's responsible for Kylo's turn to the Dark Side. You can't just write him off like he doesn't count since he's a key character in the actual plot of the entire story!
When we first see Palpatine, he basically fills all the characteristics of what Snoke is right now. He is the leader of the big bad organization, he is the master of a henchman, and in fact you know even less about his past than what we know about Snoke. At very least you know that Snoke played a role in corrupting Ben Solo, but with the Emperor you know that he is vader's master and the emperor, that's it. He then gets throw into the endless Death Star Pit.
All the exposition on the prequels only came after the fact.
It it loosely true that Snoke has to fit into an existing universe, but there is a big enough time jump between ROTJ and TFA that much of the universe is pretty much reset and the directors are working with a clean slate.
When I said you don't need to explain snoke, I am saying that the movie doesn't have to fill in every detail for the audience. Some things can be left unexplained - star wars is full of these half explained points. The Clone Wars, which ended up being a pivotal time period, started off as a complete throw away conversational line by Obi Wan.
It's okay if you, personally prefer that Snoke should have had more background (I actually fall in to that group too!), but to insist that the lack of explanation of Snoke spoils the movie, I think, over exaggerates this issue doesn't seem to really get Star Wars.
Plus, Kylo's theme of destroying the past folds in nicely with the fact that Snooke is in fact, a villian without much of a past. The movie (at least for the antagonist side) is literally saying that the past is unimportant.
Further, I dont' really think Snoke is a key character at all, because the narrative focus is clearly on Ben Solo instead. Snoke's just there to provide some plot and that's about it.
What no thats silly. The end of ROTJ was a massive victory for the rebellion but it wasn't the end of the war by any measure. The empire was still set up throughout the galaxy and had to have some loyalist planets while the rebellion had no populis planets. Other media has filled in the gap for what happened between the two (the battle for jakku coming 4 years after ROTJ being the end of the war and the creation of a new republic). but the universe is far from a clean slate.
Snoke plays a large part in the whole story though. He apparently was a known person to luke when he was running the academy and the fear of him is what led him to his attempted murder of Kylo. presumably hes who Kylo turned to after this happened. Hes a loose thread that appears quite a few times for him to just be a throwawy line by owiwan.
I mean the emperor is completely different because he as a character embraces his status as the big arch enemy bad. He doesn't die until the very end and when that happens its celebrated as the defeat of the dark side. He doesn't need explanation because hes just the big bad. Snoke gets lines that impact the plot and critical impact on the plot in various places and is simply refereed to as "supreme leader".
On December 20 2017 11:08 Sermokala wrote: What no thats silly. The end of ROTJ was a massive victory for the rebellion but it wasn't the end of the war by any measure. The empire was still set up throughout the galaxy and had to have some loyalist planets while the rebellion had no populis planets. Other media has filled in the gap for what happened between the two (the battle for jakku coming 4 years after ROTJ being the end of the war and the creation of a new republic). but the universe is far from a clean slate.
Snoke plays a large part in the whole story though. He apparently was a known person to luke when he was running the academy and the fear of him is what led him to his attempted murder of Kylo. presumably hes who Kylo turned to after this happened. Hes a loose thread that appears quite a few times for him to just be a throwawy line by owiwan.
I mean the emperor is completely different because he as a character embraces his status as the big arch enemy bad. He doesn't die until the very end and when that happens its celebrated as the defeat of the dark side. He doesn't need explanation because hes just the big bad. Snoke gets lines that impact the plot and critical impact on the plot in various places and is simply refereed to as "supreme leader".
When I mention "clean slate" i mean that sufficient time has passed for the movies to bring in new characters without the need to also excessively explain their backgrounds in the movie. Nearly all of the new characters are introduced this way - Finn is just a storm trooper. Poe is a pilot. Hux is a general. You don't know extensive back histories for all of these people, because enough time has passed since ROTJ for all the necessary back history to take place.
The emperor and snoke were both set up as the big bad, so I don't get how you are trying to differentiate them. The only real difference is that Snoke dies earlier. The Emperor gets all sorts of lines that impact the plot too such as trying to corrupt luke, tryin gto get luke to be his apprentice, and so on. And you have to remember that back then, all the extra exposition about the Rule of Two, the Sith, and so on, had not yet been established - it was just what's in the movie at that time.
Again - I can understand if we all hope that Snoke could have had a bit more backstory. I would have liked that too. But, I don't think it's really essential to the movie.
While we're on the topic of the Emperor, what were his motivations for ruling the galaxy? Once he became Emperor, was he just permanently in a warlike frame of mind without care for governance? The rise to power is one thing -- anyone can be power-hungry -- but when he finally attained it, what were his plans? As far as I'm aware we never learned them, and the only glimpse into Empire-ruled life for the average person was Lando and Cloud City (which even then was "we're pretty sure you have Rebels here so we're gonna shake you down"). What was life intended to be like once all the Rebels were gone?
I felt a similar lack of compelling motivation for Snoke, but we've already discussed that in this thread. I just want to know if there are higher expectations for Snoke or if we're just supposed to accept him as "The Big Bad" the way we did the Emperor.
On December 20 2017 11:33 Excalibur_Z wrote: While we're on the topic of the Emperor, what were his motivations for ruling the galaxy? Once he became Emperor, was he just permanently in a warlike frame of mind without care for governance? The rise to power is one thing -- anyone can be power-hungry -- but when he finally attained it, what were his plans? As far as I'm aware we never learned them, and the only glimpse into Empire-ruled life for the average person was Lando and Cloud City (which even then was "we're pretty sure you have Rebels here so we're gonna shake you down"). What was life intended to be like once all the Rebels were gone?
I felt a similar lack of compelling motivation for Snoke, but we've already discussed that in this thread. I just want to know if there are higher expectations for Snoke or if we're just supposed to accept him as "The Big Bad" the way we did the Emperor.
Yeah this is an interesting and good question. The extended universe/comics/prequels do explain that the Emperor wanted to achieve immortality in addition to wiping out the jedi order. So I guess that by coming into power he already achieved the wiping out jedi bit, and was going to focus on becoming an immortal Sith lord or something.
Solely on the original trilogy movies though, as far as I can recall the Emperor basically was just the "bad guy", and everyone just rolled with it.
I think one reason why people find Vader more appealing is that Vader has much more complex motivations than the Emperor. On one had Vader wants to replace the Emperor, but on the other he wants to convert his son, and finally he also has a redemption arc.
In the same way, Kylo is much more interesting that Snoke, because Kylo wants to kill the Sith.
On December 20 2017 11:57 LegalLord wrote: I’m ok with the emperor just being evil for the sake of being evil. Some characters just don’t need a complicated or fleshed out motivation.
And this works in a world where the Emperor is just a big bad. In the original trilogy Vader is the one committing the genocides and even he is putting over the Emperor as the big bad. The Emperor is never involved in the main plot at any point as anything but a placeholder until the end when he is defeated.
Snoke on the other hand is very much involved in the plot and plays critical roles in making the events happen as they do. Not to mention he doesn't even look that Human. While the Emperor looked like an evil old guy he was still a human evil old guy. Snoke is either an alien or a disfigured human thats also on the power level of making intersetllar force connections between people.
On December 20 2017 11:57 LegalLord wrote: I’m ok with the emperor just being evil for the sake of being evil. Some characters just don’t need a complicated or fleshed out motivation.
And this works in a world where the Emperor is just a big bad. In the original trilogy Vader is the one committing the genocides and even he is putting over the Emperor as the big bad. The Emperor is never involved in the main plot at any point as anything but a placeholder until the end when he is defeated.
Snoke on the other hand is very much involved in the plot and plays critical roles in making the events happen as they do. Not to mention he doesn't even look that Human. While the Emperor looked like an evil old guy he was still a human evil old guy. Snoke is either an alien or a disfigured human thats also on the power level of making intersetllar force connections between people.
Other than corrupt Ben Solo (which the Emperor does the same to Anakin Skywalker) what critical roles does Snoke play in TFA and TLJ?
My recollection is that he is just there as the big bad guy who is in charge, with vague motivations about wanting to destroy the republic and the resistance. I.e. basically the Emperor.
On December 20 2017 11:57 LegalLord wrote: I’m ok with the emperor just being evil for the sake of being evil. Some characters just don’t need a complicated or fleshed out motivation.
And this works in a world where the Emperor is just a big bad. In the original trilogy Vader is the one committing the genocides and even he is putting over the Emperor as the big bad. The Emperor is never involved in the main plot at any point as anything but a placeholder until the end when he is defeated.
Snoke on the other hand is very much involved in the plot and plays critical roles in making the events happen as they do. Not to mention he doesn't even look that Human. While the Emperor looked like an evil old guy he was still a human evil old guy. Snoke is either an alien or a disfigured human thats also on the power level of making intersetllar force connections between people.
Other than corrupt Ben Solo (which the Emperor does the same to Anakin Skywalker) what critical roles does Snoke play in TFA and TLJ?
My recollection is that he is just there as the big bad guy who is in charge, with vague motivations about wanting to destroy the republic and the resistance. I.e. basically the Emperor.
Hes able to set up basically the first order or at least getting it running to a degree where he has his own special title. He corrupts Luke enough to cause him to cause ben solo to go to him to fall to the dark side. He then creates the force bridge between kylo and ray (enough apparently to transmit lightsaber fighting styles and jedi force knowledge). Hes the one giveing the orders at the start and during most of the chase in TLJ.
On December 20 2017 06:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am specifically talking about the end of episode 3 and the start of episode 4. That time skip isn't worked out at all, everything in between is mystery and you have to buy that the staus quo of episode 4 makes sense. I can definitely see that it's easier that way, but it's still similar in concept.
The sequels don't have enough worldbuilding in a sense, i think that's true yes. But if that really bothers you is just priority/preference. I think it's actually closer to the OT in that sense, the OT didn't have much either
The original trilogy had a lot more, and even if it didn't that's not an equivalent statement. It would be like saying "Once upon a time there was a land far far away" is the same kind of story as "And now 30 years later we find our heroes here!" When you reuse old characters in a familiar setting you set yourself up for needing to explain the time skip.
When you have a time skip of 30 years in a sequel, you owe it to your reader/audience to explain at least some of how you got to where you are since the story already has continuity to it.
If Disney wanted to avoid having that storytelling obligation they could have made it an even further time skip and used 100% original characters (ala Star Trek the Next Generation), but they wanted to make sure the original cast was involved, so now we need an explanation for how everyone got to where they are.
So far, they've just scoffed at that obligation in the movies and what bugs me is that they're scoffing at it while simultaenously just retelling the original trilogy's story. It's such weak writing. They're not fulfilling basic storytelling needs while at the same time they're just rehashing old content. It's lame, and no amount of special effects or one liner jokes can make that NOT lame.
No. That's just a sw theme. Usually you get 2 lines in the opening scrawl that is supposed to explain it. That was inadequate in TFA, but let's face it: the opening scrawl of ep. 2 posits Dooku as an established character: leader of the Separatists and a Sith. It comes out of nowhere, because in episode 1, Nite Gunray is the leader (under Palp) and Maul was the sith apprentice. How, when and why did Dooku appear? Who cares, just enjoy this movie! Also mysterious clone army lying around for you to war with!
And for that matter, the emperor was introduced in a similar way in Empire. In fact, the first time I saw the OT (as a kid), I was really confused, because I thought Vader was the emperor.
Backstory for the ultimate (but disposable) bad guys is simply not something star wars movies have care about... ever. I find Snoke a lot less jarring than Dooku. Mainly because unlike the prequels, it turns out he was just a chump who took power in the vacuum, but is unimportant otherwise. While Dooku is the main antagonist for 2 whole movies (and CW animated series, which does expand the backstory for him and Maul a bit to make more sense).
When it comes to Star Wars, I do not have a horse in the race. I am not emotionally attached to the franchise. I have enjoyed some moves of the franchise quite a bit.
I saw it yesterday and coming from this perspective I rate it a 3/10, maybe 4/10. The movie was just horrific in my view. The last 45 minutes were incredibly boring, the comic relief was all over the place and... honestly, this would become a very long post. During the break I tried to keep my disappointment to myself, to not ruin the movie for anyone else. But my colleagues, all avid Star Wars fans, by this point were totally spent. They all hated it.
It was really an increadibly bad experience for me .
On December 20 2017 16:26 Malinor wrote: When it comes to Star Wars, I do not have a horse in the race. I am not emotionally attached to the franchise. I have enjoyed some moves of the franchise quite a bit.
I saw it yesterday and coming from this perspective I rate it a 3/10, maybe 4/10. The movie was just horrific in my view. The last 45 minutes were incredibly boring, the comic relief was all over the place and... honestly, this would become a very long post. During the break I tried to keep my disappointment to myself, to not ruin the movie for anyone else. But my colleagues, all avid Star Wars fans, by this point were totally spent. They all hated it.
It was really an increadibly bad experience for me .
I'm curious - your movie screening had a break? That's kinda cool
Echoing what some others have said, the Snoke backstory is one of the main flaws to TFA for sure, but that still isn't the deal breaker for me. Bad acting on Rey's part due to script or writing direction was a major problem, her story as a whole also was a problem for me. She starts the movie begging for help and training, she has power when pushed to the limit like a young gohan, yet she ends the movie in the exact same way....all we learnt is that "most likely" (not even definite) she has no parents of note, she is just someone who is very strong with the force, which seems to be the key point the director wants us to understand.
The director is taking the film away from jedi (good) vs sith (evil) and making it more about person vs person and the jedi / sith debacle is now meaningless. This would have been fine...IF it was the first movie in the trilogy! You can't make a second movie, of a trilogy completely different to the first lore wise because you want too... That is why this film comes across even worst than it should, if this was the first movie and Rey halfway through it meets Luke and then the same ending happened you would have gone, wow that was bold wonder what happens in the next two films now that the Jedi is gone and what not. But to do that in episode 2 of 3 after 1 had told the exact same story as the previous 6 films is a bit stupid to say the least. Hell if that was episode 3 that would make more sense right, what a good ending to the "next trilogy" if luke and the jedi order are gone for good, the Sith is no more it is just person vs person who discover the force and "self" teach themselves for an old fashioned good vs evil movie and you don't need to be a skywalker to be powerful and don't need some master to show you the ways.
On December 20 2017 18:35 Pandemona wrote: Germany efficiency!
Echoing what some others have said, the Snoke backstory is one of the main flaws to TFA for sure, but that still isn't the deal breaker for me. Bad acting on Rey's part due to script or writing direction was a major problem, her story as a whole also was a problem for me. She starts the movie begging for help and training, she has power when pushed to the limit like a young gohan, yet she ends the movie in the exact same way....all we learnt is that "most likely" (not even definite) she has no parents of note, she is just someone who is very strong with the force, which seems to be the key point the director wants us to understand.
The director is taking the film away from jedi (good) vs sith (evil) and making it more about person vs person and the jedi / sith debacle is now meaningless. This would have been fine...IF it was the first movie in the trilogy! You can't make a second movie, of a trilogy completely different to the first lore wise because you want too... That is why this film comes across even worst than it should, if this was the first movie and Rey halfway through it meets Luke and then the same ending happened you would have gone, wow that was bold wonder what happens in the next two films now that the Jedi is gone and what not. But to do that in episode 2 of 3 after 1 had told the exact same story as the previous 6 films is a bit stupid to say the least. Hell if that was episode 3 that would make more sense right, what a good ending to the "next trilogy" if luke and the jedi order are gone for good, the Sith is no more it is just person vs person who discover the force and "self" teach themselves for an old fashioned good vs evil movie and you don't need to be a skywalker to be powerful and don't need some master to show you the ways.
Well there were obvious limitations to this being done. TFA had to be safe, because it had so many expectations to fill - get back old fans, introduce new fans, and make everyone for get the prequels.
TLJ, being the second movie, had more space to do its own thing.
Anyway, Empire had the most epic major lore change - Vader becomes Luke's father and a fallen Jedi, rather than a bad guy. Second movies don't have to follow the first at all. Not to mention in the third movie, ROTJ, Leia is revealed to be Luke's sister, which is pretty mind blowing too seeing as Leia was making out with her brother one movie ago (despite saying in ROTJ that "she always knew).
On December 20 2017 16:26 Malinor wrote: When it comes to Star Wars, I do not have a horse in the race. I am not emotionally attached to the franchise. I have enjoyed some moves of the franchise quite a bit.
I saw it yesterday and coming from this perspective I rate it a 3/10, maybe 4/10. The movie was just horrific in my view. The last 45 minutes were incredibly boring, the comic relief was all over the place and... honestly, this would become a very long post. During the break I tried to keep my disappointment to myself, to not ruin the movie for anyone else. But my colleagues, all avid Star Wars fans, by this point were totally spent. They all hated it.
It was really an increadibly bad experience for me .
I'm curious - your movie screening had a break? That's kinda cool
Mine too,they do this in order to people have the time to go w.c etc,real reason is to sell more pop corn drinks etc.
On December 20 2017 18:35 Pandemona wrote: Germany efficiency!
Echoing what some others have said, the Snoke backstory is one of the main flaws to TFA for sure, but that still isn't the deal breaker for me. Bad acting on Rey's part due to script or writing direction was a major problem, her story as a whole also was a problem for me. She starts the movie begging for help and training, she has power when pushed to the limit like a young gohan, yet she ends the movie in the exact same way....all we learnt is that "most likely" (not even definite) she has no parents of note, she is just someone who is very strong with the force, which seems to be the key point the director wants us to understand.
The director is taking the film away from jedi (good) vs sith (evil) and making it more about person vs person and the jedi / sith debacle is now meaningless. This would have been fine...IF it was the first movie in the trilogy! You can't make a second movie, of a trilogy completely different to the first lore wise because you want too... That is why this film comes across even worst than it should, if this was the first movie and Rey halfway through it meets Luke and then the same ending happened you would have gone, wow that was bold wonder what happens in the next two films now that the Jedi is gone and what not. But to do that in episode 2 of 3 after 1 had told the exact same story as the previous 6 films is a bit stupid to say the least. Hell if that was episode 3 that would make more sense right, what a good ending to the "next trilogy" if luke and the jedi order are gone for good, the Sith is no more it is just person vs person who discover the force and "self" teach themselves for an old fashioned good vs evil movie and you don't need to be a skywalker to be powerful and don't need some master to show you the ways.
Well there were obvious limitations to this being done. TFA had to be safe, because it had so many expectations to fill - get back old fans, introduce new fans, and make everyone for get the prequels.
TLJ, being the second movie, had more space to do its own thing.
Anyway, Empire had the most epic major lore change - Vader becomes Luke's father and a fallen Jedi, rather than a bad guy. Second movies don't have to follow the first at all. Not to mention in the third movie, ROTJ, Leia is revealed to be Luke's sister, which is pretty mind blowing too seeing as Leia was making out with her brother one movie ago (despite saying in ROTJ that "she always knew).
Yeah but you can understand the view point of doing that in movie two, making it huge changes like this is the worst place to put it. Making it happening in movie 1 or movie 3 makes sense. I mean it sets up the next trilogy he does very well if there is no more Jedi / Sith, just "normal" people who randomly discover they have the force in them and become greedy with it or use it to help people etc.
Old trilogy didn't change lore though, didn't change the fundamentals of the film. Who is this Vadar guy, he so evil. Oh wow he is Luke's dad wow that is crazy. That isn't changing how the movie is, Vadar is still a bad guy, he just knows Luke is his son and vice versa, Luke also takes most of episode 6 coming to terms with that no? Also again the Leia thing doesn't change the story though does it, just opens up the Han and Leia romance that was clearly always going to be won by Han xD
On December 20 2017 16:26 Malinor wrote: When it comes to Star Wars, I do not have a horse in the race. I am not emotionally attached to the franchise. I have enjoyed some moves of the franchise quite a bit.
I saw it yesterday and coming from this perspective I rate it a 3/10, maybe 4/10. The movie was just horrific in my view. The last 45 minutes were incredibly boring, the comic relief was all over the place and... honestly, this would become a very long post. During the break I tried to keep my disappointment to myself, to not ruin the movie for anyone else. But my colleagues, all avid Star Wars fans, by this point were totally spent. They all hated it.
It was really an increadibly bad experience for me .
I'm curious - your movie screening had a break? That's kinda cool
Mine too,they do this in order to people have the time to go w.c etc,real reason is to sell more pop corn drinks etc.
Intermissions are old school enough to be cool again.
I rewatched empire strikes back to have a better comparison and the movie is not nearly as good as i remember it to be. The acting is actually horrible, the "i am your father moment" doesn't work because of it. Han and Leia's romance is annoying for the most part, Luke first surviving in the cold like that and then the jump on cloud city is kinda ridiculous. The b plotline with han and co trying to get away from the empire is resolved well with the trap, but the part on the asteroid with the worm is completely pointless. Vader's plan to catch luke is also totally garbage and only "works" because of plot convenience, Han's plan to escape the star destroyer is equally stupid. It also has pacing issues i think, showing sameish establishing scenes over and over again without real purpose (for example one vader one where it's only done so we see his damaged body, could have ben fused with a similar scene easily, also on the ice planet to show rebels communicating with each other, etc)
Before the rewatch i would have said it's clearly the best, but it's really not that good. The whole plot is basically: Fake drama about luke into rebels escaping into luke training / han escaping into han trap into luke trap. People say it builds a lot better into ROTJ than TLJ does for the next one, but that's hardly true. It's actually so untrue that ROTJ uses another death star because they had no idea what to do else.
Overall ESB isn't really the golden standard for star wars, it has some strong points (Yoda, atmosphere, twist) but also a lot of flaws.
"nooooo, that's impossible" :
Hamill really learned a lot since then, he's actually quite good in TLJ, thankfully.
The attempt to move away from Jedi + Rebels = good Sith + Empire = bad is also complete undone by the end of this film, so I don't think it's really fair to say this was an important message of TLJ. Yoda even basically says "she'll still be a Jedi and a better one than us."
Kylo and Rey join together and try to create a new order, no rebels no empire no evil space wizards no good space wizards? That would have broken the narrative. Instead Johnson kind of pushes the envelope then just says "whoopsy doopsy, that leaves even less space for a 'normal' 3rd installment, Disney won't like that."
I didn't hate the movie, but it was disappointing. The more I think about any detail, the worse it comes off to me. Based on the interviews it's pretty clear they have no direction on where the story is going or how it's supposed to end. It's just making stuff up as they go along.
I had problems with TFA over recycling the original trilogy story line, but Han's death did have some impact for me. Most of the new characters I don't care about at all. When this version of Luke died, I was glad to not have to listen to him whine any more. The guy who redeemed Vader was broken to the point of considering killing his nephew in his bed for having darkness in him... I needed a lot more character development to go into the fall of Skywalker for his character to change as much as it did.
Snoke was a potentially interesting character, but they killed him off as if he was a random lackey. I kept waiting to see that this was his clone or something because surely the guy who can mentally link two people across the galaxy, turned Ben Solo while he was being trained by Luke, and over threw the Republic doesn't just get offed by an apprentice who is so underwhelming. Kylo killing Snoke came across more as Snoke being much weaker than expected, rather than Kylo being much stronger. Rey already defeated Kylo with no training, so making Kylo the ultimate villain is underwhelming.
The Rebellion was outnumbered in the original Trilogy, but you still got the impression it was thousands of rebels vs millions of Empire. The new trilogy has millions of New Order vs a few hundred resistance. Despite the extended effort with Finn and Rose's story to show that sometimes plans by the good guys fail, the New Order hasn't won any decisive victories considering their massive advantages though. As much trouble as they are having with the ~400 or so rebels left, I can't understand how these losers over threw the Republic in the first place.
The new trilogy basically makes the defeat of the empire in the original trilogy meaningless with minimal explanation of how we got to a place worse off than they were at the start of A New Hope. The Last Jedi over writes many of the potential questions posed in The Force Awakens as meaningless in the same fashion. It's hard to care where the story is going next because whatever development they tried to set up to this point is just as likely to not matter at all in the next movie. Just doing something unexpected for the sake of doing something unexpected doesn't make for a good story for me.
Can someone with more knowledge of the lore on the new trilogy explain this - at the beginning of ep. 7 was the republic ruling the galaxy or not? If it was - even after the use of the super weapon by the first order, why is the rebel force in ep.8 made of few hundred people instead of the might of the whole galaxy sending forces to destroy the first order?
On December 21 2017 02:33 Jimmy Raynor wrote: Can someone with more knowledge of the lore on the new trilogy explain this - at the beginning of ep. 7 was the republic ruling the galaxy or not? If it was - even after the use of the super weapon by the first order, why is the rebel force in ep.8 made of few hundred people instead of the might of the whole galaxy sending forces to destroy the first order?
Well You're in luck because the new trilogy never expresses this says anything about the state of the universe and TLJ further muddies the galaxy by adding in vaugeries and doubt onto everything.
If you want to know about the galaxy you have to go into the video games comics books and TV shows because keeping track of basic interstellar politics is for kids and not adults.
I put the soft cannon explanation to the universe in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
And this soft cannon universe says yes... kinda. The Empire surrenders after the battle of jakku and the new republic presumably takes control of everything the empire didn't cart off to "the unknown regions". However beacuse jabba the hut was killed the republic isn't the only thing looking to fill the obvious vacuum and they never really get up on their feet with squabbles of quasi empire loyalists who want a centralized government and the former resistance sympathizers who want a demilitarized galaxy like the old days.
So when the republics core worlds are gutted the government falls like a house of cards and presumably the first order walks over to take back the galaxy having more fire power then the cartels and an actual military to take the former new republic worlds.
Apparently the Republic as of The Force Awakens was mostly demilitarized and didn't include all the planets that had been part of the Empire. The bulk (well, all) of their military might was positioned around the planets in the Hosnian system, which Starkiller base annihilated.
The Resistance (who get called Rebels a lot in TLJ because reasons) were a separate group Leia led that was essentially an unsanctioned military offshoot of The Republic, designed to combat the imperial remnants they were sure would be up to no good.
None of this is explained at all in the movies. And despite TLJ happening about 24 hours of calendar time after The Force Awakens, the Resistance has also been pretty much annihilated by the time it starts (especially once Poe sticks his fingers in).
Flynn and Rose kept failing and were entirely useless, you could've removed them from the movie and nothing would've changed. Same goes for Poe after his X-wing rampage from the opening act. Throne room fight was cool I guess.
Luke being a miserable old man who was supposed to be this legend just made me miserable. Got my hopes up during his stare down with the AT-ATs, was kinda disappointed. Thought the Kung Fu Panda showdown with the cannon boats near the end of the second movie was more climatic. Skywalker dies alone, he deserved better than this.
After decades of conflict (and waiting for sequels), we're back to where we started.
Just came back from the cinema and atm I feel like TLJ was better than TFA. Nothing special, but I didn't have high expectations so I wasn't let down. Just hoping whoever writes the third will have the balls to let the bad guys kill some good guys. Leia flying back to her ship on her own was the only part of the movie that made me feel angry.
watched the movie during the first day and first screening. Probably the best one I liked. A modern star wars on its own story. I liked TFA too but after several times watching it, theres, too much fan service and similarity to the orig trilogy. I liked TLJ more. 9/10 for me. Tried to nitpick after the movie and I only found very few.
I only find the Rey x Kylo, telepathic scenes a little weird. They could have done more, like in the mind or something. And not too literal talking.
Just hoping whoever writes the third will have the balls to let the bad guys kill some good guys.
what do you mean? kylo just stabbed his father with a light saber in TFA, Luke just went immortal mode (good as dead) , 90% of the main rebellion is dead. In the orig trilogy, not even one main good guy died.
On December 21 2017 05:52 riotjune wrote: Saw it this morning, can't say I liked it.
Flynn and Rose kept failing and were entirely useless, you could've removed them from the movie and nothing would've changed. Same goes for Poe after his X-wing rampage from the opening act. Throne room fight was cool I guess.
Luke being a miserable old man who was supposed to be this legend just made me miserable. Got my hopes up during his stare down with the AT-ATs, was kinda disappointed. Thought the Kung Fu Panda showdown with the cannon boats near the end of the second movie was more climatic. Skywalker dies alone, he deserved better than this.
After decades of conflict (and waiting for sequels), we're back to where we started.
The best thing about The Last Jedi is that Finn and Rose fail miserably, because this movie breaks all Star Wars rules. It's not some dumb luck plan saving our heroes, it's Luke, who steps in as their last hope. Skywalker's death could not have been more heroic, he chose to sacrifice himself so the Resistance could live. And on his way out we get a beautiful shot of another binary sunset, come on it doesn't get any better than that.
Finn is annoying. His escapades are stupid. He should not be with Rose. Poe should be buddy copping around with him. Rose is completely unnecessary. Too many dumbass filler characters like Phasma and Rose. Cut that and give us more Poe, Rey, and Luke. Too much comedy.
Still better than TFA and every prequel so there's that at least.
On December 21 2017 08:43 shin_toss wrote: watched the movie during the first day and first screening. Probably the best one I liked. A modern star wars on its own story. I liked TFA too but after several times watching it, theres, too much fan service and similarity to the orig trilogy. I liked TLJ more. 9/10 for me. Tried to nitpick after the movie and I only found very few.
I only find the Rey x Kylo, telepathic scenes a little weird. They could have done more, like in the mind or something. And not too literal talking.
Just hoping whoever writes the third will have the balls to let the bad guys kill some good guys.
what do you mean? kylo just stabbed his father with a light saber in TFA, Luke just went immortal mode (good as dead) , 90% of the main rebellion is dead. In the orig trilogy, not even one main good guy died.
Well Han Solo was not main at all in TFA, just like Leia and Luke.
On December 21 2017 08:43 shin_toss wrote: watched the movie during the first day and first screening. Probably the best one I liked. A modern star wars on its own story. I liked TFA too but after several times watching it, theres, too much fan service and similarity to the orig trilogy. I liked TLJ more. 9/10 for me. Tried to nitpick after the movie and I only found very few.
I only find the Rey x Kylo, telepathic scenes a little weird. They could have done more, like in the mind or something. And not too literal talking.
Just hoping whoever writes the third will have the balls to let the bad guys kill some good guys.
what do you mean? kylo just stabbed his father with a light saber in TFA, Luke just went immortal mode (good as dead) , 90% of the main rebellion is dead. In the orig trilogy, not even one main good guy died.
Well Han Solo was not main at all in TFA, just like Leia and Luke.
Well the original comment was "kill some good guys" and not "main good guys". While I agree that I think Finn should have been allowed to die (Rose saving and then kissing him, is one of the weak points of TLJ), TLJ shows rebels dying by the bucket loads, and some in pretty impactful ways too. You do get a sense that a lot of people are dying here, rather than just disposable clone army versus robots.
Seen it twice now, first with friends who arent super starwars fans and then again with my sister who is a mega starwars fan. Both were disappointed considering the hype around it
Theres a ton of stuff that bugs me, -leia flying through space just looked bad and i think isnt good for the story -the connection between kylo and rey in the end, even tho this was mediated by snoke (who then died...) -snoke's death and who he was (hopefully this is explained in the next movie) -the lighspeed crash...while looks beautiful it didnt make sense, why dont they just do that all the time why dont the bombers just do that...why doesnt every battle just end with the loser going fuck this everyone lightspeed into them! This idea i thought wouldnt work because of the shields but w/e...like maybe the reaction is to powerup the shields to 100% on the point of contact and just block it but the empire of snokes ship which is probably the most advance and powerful couldnt do anything against it. -reys parents, my sister is conviced that kylo is lying to her to show that hes the only one that will care for her but the way its presented where kylo lets rey come to the conclusion on her own feels off for a lie
-Fin and rose completely pointless...i really like Fin in TFA i dont like rose at all, not because shes asian or fat or w/e (tho i think thats why they picked her) but because all her scenes are just cringy...didnt they learn from 1,2,3 that the forced romance just doesnt work...what a stupid forced kiss -bb-8 is overpowered as hell (yeah R2D2 is broken as hell but at least the excuse can be made he was built by anakin who constantly reminds us of how much of a god he is) isnt bb-8 just some standard droid
-Theres alot of talk about kylo's potential and the anakin bloodline but tbh we havnt seen any of that outside of the blaster catch (which was fucken awesome) didnt see anything special in TLJ tho they seemed very clumsy fighting the redguards or at least could have used more force powers like chucking them into the razor pit that killed that one guard or force pulling someone into the light saber, the scene was cool but i think it could have been better) - The CGI when Rey is explaining the force looked super shit with those plants...minor issue but w/e -The sith pit was completely useless and didnt seem dangerous at all for how luke was scared -No third lesson...seriously this combined with luke saying "see you later kid" and dying seems to say they really wanted luke dead in this ep and forced it in. -Knights of Ren....wtf can we please have them they looked so cool and hyped during the TLA flashback
-Ackbar died....offscreen T_T -Why didnt the purple haired commander tell them the plan, leia admits that they knew about the hyperspeed tracking on the main cruiser so its not a mole, so why hide the plan???? how does the girl who is connected to poe and has a job on the bridge not know about this plan and tell poe (btw thats carries daughter!)
tldr felt like fanservice was considered first then story fitted around
tbh I think it's fine to include some sort of random deus ex machina crap to save Leia, but the way they did it was just really bad. It looked funny as fuck, and as far as we know that's like the most high level usage of the force we've ever seen and it's from someone who again, as far as we know is only force sensitive.
I'm not against her randomly using the force on accident, her bloodline is incredibly strong. But this is shit Luke/Vader wouldn't have been able to do
On December 21 2017 16:39 TheEmulator wrote: tbh I think it's fine to include some sort of random deus ex machina crap to save Leia, but the way they did it was just really bad. It looked funny as fuck, and as far as we know that's like the most high level usage of the force we've ever seen and it's from someone who again, as far as we know is only force sensitive.
I'm not against her randomly using the force on accident, her bloodline is incredibly strong. But this is shit Luke/Vader wouldn't have been able to do
Nah rey moves like 50+ rocks without any struggle on her face seems to be the most broken power, freaken sidious moved senate chairs one by one at yoda and the dude is the clumination of the rule of 2.
Moments like leia moving through space are like for the sake of a twist, like everyone expects leia to die because of the actor and while its a shame everyone kinda understands the necessity of it considering the situation, and so long as it is tactful people are gonna give you a pass for killing her off. The fans understand that, instead it feels like the director thought of this but wanted to play on that and have a twist that she lives based on that (if you really wanted her to live she wouldnt be on the command deck or it wouldnt have exploded and sent her out to space) But no th director deliberately wanted that turn of events where she lives for the sake of it, so it comes out looking weird and crude.
It feels like that alot of the times in the movie with the thief oh hes an asshole oh he is good oh back to being an asshole and the end where u think he is in the walker nope its bb8...com'on man can just tell the story first then have fanservice fit in rather than fit a story around fan service and twists and w/e random scenes you thought of in the shower
On December 21 2017 16:03 Shock710 wrote: Seen it twice now, first with friends who arent super starwars fans and then again with my sister who is a mega starwars fan. Both were disappointed considering the hype around it
Theres a ton of stuff that bugs me, -leia flying through space just looked bad and i think isnt good for the story -the connection between kylo and rey in the end, even tho this was mediated by snoke (who then died...) -snoke's death and who he was (hopefully this is explained in the next movie) -the lighspeed crash...while looks beautiful it didnt make sense, why dont they just do that all the time why dont the bombers just do that...why doesnt every battle just end with the loser going fuck this everyone lightspeed into them! This idea i thought wouldnt work because of the shields but w/e...like maybe the reaction is to powerup the shields to 100% on the point of contact and just block it but the empire of snokes ship which is probably the most advance and powerful couldnt do anything against it. -reys parents, my sister is conviced that kylo is lying to her to show that hes the only one that will care for her but the way its presented where kylo lets rey come to the conclusion on her own feels off for a lie
-Fin and rose completely pointless...i really like Fin in TFA i dont like rose at all, not because shes asian or fat or w/e (tho i think thats why they picked her) but because all her scenes are just cringy...didnt they learn from 1,2,3 that the forced romance just doesnt work...what a stupid forced kiss -bb-8 is overpowered as hell (yeah R2D2 is broken as hell but at least the excuse can be made he was built by anakin who constantly reminds us of how much of a god he is) isnt bb-8 just some standard droid
-Theres alot of talk about kylo's potential and the anakin bloodline but tbh we havnt seen any of that outside of the blaster catch (which was fucken awesome) didnt see anything special in TLJ tho they seemed very clumsy fighting the redguards or at least could have used more force powers like chucking them into the razor pit that killed that one guard or force pulling someone into the light saber, the scene was cool but i think it could have been better) - The CGI when Rey is explaining the force looked super shit with those plants...minor issue but w/e -The sith pit was completely useless and didnt seem dangerous at all for how luke was scared -No third lesson...seriously this combined with luke saying "see you later kid" and dying seems to say they really wanted luke dead in this ep and forced it in. -Knights of Ren....wtf can we please have them they looked so cool and hyped during the TLA flashback
-Ackbar died....offscreen T_T -Why didnt the purple haired commander tell them the plan, leia admits that they knew about the hyperspeed tracking on the main cruiser so its not a mole, so why hide the plan???? how does the girl who is connected to poe and has a job on the bridge not know about this plan and tell poe (btw thats carries daughter!)
tldr felt like fanservice was considered first then story fitted around
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy the movie. I wanted to ask though, how does a movie do "fanservice was considered first" but at the same time let you down for all the fanservice stuff that you were expecting, like the knights of ren, kylos potential, reys parents... Etc.
I kinda think the movie purposely did not give a shit a bout fan service, best seen in how Luke threw his sabre over his shoulder when rey gave it to him.
I wish akbar could have gotten one last "it's a trap!!!" as the bridge blew up though
On December 21 2017 17:31 TheEmulator wrote: idk man Leia literally entered God mode by not immediately dying in outer space then she also FLEW THROUGH THE DAMN AIR while unconscious
edit: idk if moving those rocks is that much more impressive than Luke moving his ship from Yoda's swamp if we ignore that Rey has no training.
Well... there is technically no air in outer space, so she did not fly through any air.
On December 21 2017 16:03 Shock710 wrote: Seen it twice now, first with friends who arent super starwars fans and then again with my sister who is a mega starwars fan. Both were disappointed considering the hype around it
Theres a ton of stuff that bugs me, -leia flying through space just looked bad and i think isnt good for the story -the connection between kylo and rey in the end, even tho this was mediated by snoke (who then died...) -snoke's death and who he was (hopefully this is explained in the next movie) -the lighspeed crash...while looks beautiful it didnt make sense, why dont they just do that all the time why dont the bombers just do that...why doesnt every battle just end with the loser going fuck this everyone lightspeed into them! This idea i thought wouldnt work because of the shields but w/e...like maybe the reaction is to powerup the shields to 100% on the point of contact and just block it but the empire of snokes ship which is probably the most advance and powerful couldnt do anything against it. -reys parents, my sister is conviced that kylo is lying to her to show that hes the only one that will care for her but the way its presented where kylo lets rey come to the conclusion on her own feels off for a lie
-Fin and rose completely pointless...i really like Fin in TFA i dont like rose at all, not because shes asian or fat or w/e (tho i think thats why they picked her) but because all her scenes are just cringy...didnt they learn from 1,2,3 that the forced romance just doesnt work...what a stupid forced kiss -bb-8 is overpowered as hell (yeah R2D2 is broken as hell but at least the excuse can be made he was built by anakin who constantly reminds us of how much of a god he is) isnt bb-8 just some standard droid
-Theres alot of talk about kylo's potential and the anakin bloodline but tbh we havnt seen any of that outside of the blaster catch (which was fucken awesome) didnt see anything special in TLJ tho they seemed very clumsy fighting the redguards or at least could have used more force powers like chucking them into the razor pit that killed that one guard or force pulling someone into the light saber, the scene was cool but i think it could have been better) - The CGI when Rey is explaining the force looked super shit with those plants...minor issue but w/e -The sith pit was completely useless and didnt seem dangerous at all for how luke was scared -No third lesson...seriously this combined with luke saying "see you later kid" and dying seems to say they really wanted luke dead in this ep and forced it in. -Knights of Ren....wtf can we please have them they looked so cool and hyped during the TLA flashback
-Ackbar died....offscreen T_T -Why didnt the purple haired commander tell them the plan, leia admits that they knew about the hyperspeed tracking on the main cruiser so its not a mole, so why hide the plan???? how does the girl who is connected to poe and has a job on the bridge not know about this plan and tell poe (btw thats carries daughter!)
tldr felt like fanservice was considered first then story fitted around
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy the movie. I wanted to ask though, how does a movie do "fanservice was considered first" but at the same time let you down for all the fanservice stuff that you were expecting, like the knights of ren, kylos potential, reys parents... Etc.
I kinda think the movie purposely did not give a shit a bout fan service, best seen in how Luke threw his sabre over his shoulder when rey gave it to him.
I wish akbar could have gotten one last "it's a trap!!!" as the bridge blew up though
So the knights of ren, kylo and snokes backstroy, reys parents from the TFA seemed to be crucial points to the story for TLJ or ep9 they were presented as a mystery that needed answers but instead they were glossed over as not particulary relevant to the story inside TLJ, so for the directors story they werent considered important (at least so far maybe snoke is actually alive...we dont know but the end of the movie seems to steer clear of that) He told the story how he wanted to, and left out those mysteries that JJ abrams set the foundation for.
Instead of having these already established elements fitted into the story or the story being built around them,the new director as swept them aside in favour of fanservice moments like the Lightspeed crash into snokes ship, snoke using force lighting, the sith hole, leia flying through space, yoda popping up.
Fan service probably isnt the most accurate term, but rather what i mean by it is "ideas" that the director thought of that in itself would be a nice/sweet cinematic moment or an easter egg type element eg: the han solo golden dice. But dont meld well with the established universe and the story base that jj set up. I imagine that the director thought that these moments would be cool and have the fans awing, (leia flying through space, rey lighting a million rocks, snoke lighting, lightspeed crash, snokes sudden death) but instead just show a misunderstanding of the starwars universe.
In summary, interesting/cool story points from the first movie were disregarded for new cool moments that dont make sense/wouldnt fit in a well told starwars story (its a starwars story i would have a lot less to say if this was some stand alone sci-fi movie but its not, theres an establish universe and this kinda shits on it)
On December 21 2017 16:03 Shock710 wrote: Seen it twice now, first with friends who arent super starwars fans and then again with my sister who is a mega starwars fan. Both were disappointed considering the hype around it
Theres a ton of stuff that bugs me, -leia flying through space just looked bad and i think isnt good for the story -the connection between kylo and rey in the end, even tho this was mediated by snoke (who then died...) -snoke's death and who he was (hopefully this is explained in the next movie) -the lighspeed crash...while looks beautiful it didnt make sense, why dont they just do that all the time why dont the bombers just do that...why doesnt every battle just end with the loser going fuck this everyone lightspeed into them! This idea i thought wouldnt work because of the shields but w/e...like maybe the reaction is to powerup the shields to 100% on the point of contact and just block it but the empire of snokes ship which is probably the most advance and powerful couldnt do anything against it. -reys parents, my sister is conviced that kylo is lying to her to show that hes the only one that will care for her but the way its presented where kylo lets rey come to the conclusion on her own feels off for a lie
-Fin and rose completely pointless...i really like Fin in TFA i dont like rose at all, not because shes asian or fat or w/e (tho i think thats why they picked her) but because all her scenes are just cringy...didnt they learn from 1,2,3 that the forced romance just doesnt work...what a stupid forced kiss -bb-8 is overpowered as hell (yeah R2D2 is broken as hell but at least the excuse can be made he was built by anakin who constantly reminds us of how much of a god he is) isnt bb-8 just some standard droid
-Theres alot of talk about kylo's potential and the anakin bloodline but tbh we havnt seen any of that outside of the blaster catch (which was fucken awesome) didnt see anything special in TLJ tho they seemed very clumsy fighting the redguards or at least could have used more force powers like chucking them into the razor pit that killed that one guard or force pulling someone into the light saber, the scene was cool but i think it could have been better) - The CGI when Rey is explaining the force looked super shit with those plants...minor issue but w/e -The sith pit was completely useless and didnt seem dangerous at all for how luke was scared -No third lesson...seriously this combined with luke saying "see you later kid" and dying seems to say they really wanted luke dead in this ep and forced it in. -Knights of Ren....wtf can we please have them they looked so cool and hyped during the TLA flashback
-Ackbar died....offscreen T_T -Why didnt the purple haired commander tell them the plan, leia admits that they knew about the hyperspeed tracking on the main cruiser so its not a mole, so why hide the plan???? how does the girl who is connected to poe and has a job on the bridge not know about this plan and tell poe (btw thats carries daughter!)
tldr felt like fanservice was considered first then story fitted around
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy the movie. I wanted to ask though, how does a movie do "fanservice was considered first" but at the same time let you down for all the fanservice stuff that you were expecting, like the knights of ren, kylos potential, reys parents... Etc.
I kinda think the movie purposely did not give a shit a bout fan service, best seen in how Luke threw his sabre over his shoulder when rey gave it to him.
I wish akbar could have gotten one last "it's a trap!!!" as the bridge blew up though
So the knights of ren, kylo and snokes backstroy, reys parents from the TFA seemed to be crucial points to the story for TLJ or ep9 they were presented as a mystery that needed answers but instead they were glossed over as not particulary relevant to the story inside TLJ, so for the directors story they werent considered important (at least so far maybe snoke is actually alive...we dont know but the end of the movie seems to steer clear of that) He told the story how he wanted to, and left out those mysteries that JJ abrams set the foundation for.
Instead of having these already established elements fitted into the story or the story being built around them,the new director as swept them aside in favour of fanservice moments like the Lightspeed crash into snokes ship, snoke using force lighting, the sith hole, leia flying through space, yoda popping up.
Fan service probably isnt the most accurate term, but rather what i mean by it is "ideas" that the director thought of that in itself would be a nice/sweet cinematic moment or an easter egg type element eg: the han solo golden dice. But dont meld well with the established universe and the story base that jj set up. I imagine that the director thought that these moments would be cool and have the fans awing, (leia flying through space, rey lighting a million rocks, snoke lighting, lightspeed crash, snokes sudden death) but instead just show a misunderstanding of the starwars universe.
In summary, interesting/cool story points from the first movie were disregarded for new cool moments that dont make sense/wouldnt fit in a well told starwars story (its a starwars story i would have a lot less to say if this was some stand alone sci-fi movie but its not, theres an establish universe and this kinda shits on it)
Well again, I want to start by saying I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it, and also that it's totally cool that we have different views on the movie. I really liked it, and actually found it totally be a Star Wars movie, and what I am going to write next is just to share my thoughts, and if you disagree that's also cool. I am sort of saying all this because there are some really... really tense people in this thread that just start yelling about stuff.
Anywho, I would first agree that some bits are just... weird. Leia flying left me frustrated. The lightspeed crash too.
On the other hand though, the other things you mention aren't really that out of place in the star wars universe. Snoke died, but so the Emperor. Sure Snoke's death was a bit anti-climatic, but thematically, Snoke and the Emperor are just there as the "big bad guy" and you are not really given much information about them (the Emperor's full backstory is only expanded in the prequels and the EU). Rey lifted a million rocks, but Luke lifted his entire X wing from a swamp, so that's about equal.
But these are just the smaller issues. I think what you are really getting is that this movie does not feel like a star wars movie. Which I disagree with. I think that TLJ asks "what exactly is the essence of star wars" and then it starts to just throw away everything that isn't part of the essential star wars experience. So... skywalkers aren't important, as are magical parents, even most of the lore on the Jedi and Sith are just discarded. Instead it gives you a stripped down version of what the Force is (no Jedi Code, Rule of Two, or other dogma).
I actually really appreciate how refreshing it all felt. One big problem I think with Star Wars is that it gets taken way too seriously and there is just endless lore on even the smallest of characters. This movie says hey all that isn't really important - focus on the important bits instead.
I get what your trying to say that it's a good star wars movie because it didn't continue the "set in stone" rigidness of old star wars films, it tried to be different. But taking that as a rule for it being good isn't fair imo as it is not a good film to be on it's own either due to subpar script and awful acting from the start and poor storytelling.
Also what are the important bits did it focus on instead in your opinion because i can't remember anything important or we have different opinions on important bits in a film. Like, character development, back stories, how they are dealing with issues. We saw R2D2 once in that film right, why didn't we get scenes where luke is trying to deal with stuff and talking to R2 so we can understand more of luke's mindset. Rey could have also used Chewy in this regard too, or something similar. Kylo Ren is kinda the only character who we learnt alot about him with ab it of development of understanding what happened to kinda take him to the dark side. But Snoke himself would been easy to put in 10 minutes of his backstory or something. To kill him off in a movie and as an audience we are supposed to be like wow he died wow, we need more of an understand of who he is, or you are just killing off a random character. Quite easy to add filler to the sub stories for all characters from Poe to Leia what they were doing during the transition from being happily at peace to being run out of the galaxy and hunted by the First Order. So much plot and character potential went wasted because he seemed to only focus on Kylo Ren and destroying the old Jedi vs Sith plot making it just a good vs evil story per se.
I am just trying to understand your point of view of why it is a good film to see if i missed anything. I am going to see episode 9 no matter what, i haven't watched TFA for a second time and probably won't until all 3 are out and watch them, this just made me sad at the end, first time ever for a film xD
-the lighspeed crash...while looks beautiful it didnt make sense, why dont they just do that all the time why dont the bombers just do that...why doesnt every battle just end with the loser going fuck this everyone lightspeed into them!
i dont think making bombers or space craft with hyperdrive is very practical just to crash it , it is probably too costly specially for the rebels. The only reason why it sliced off the ship was because that ship is huge. And to add to that, in SW universe, main weapons are lasers than projectiles. ps: Lasers are unli
On December 21 2017 19:52 Pandemona wrote: I get what your trying to say that it's a good star wars movie because it didn't continue the "set in stone" rigidness of old star wars films, it tried to be different. But taking that as a rule for it being good isn't fair imo as it is not a good film to be on it's own either due to subpar script and awful acting from the start and poor storytelling.
Also what are the important bits did it focus on instead in your opinion because i can't remember anything important or we have different opinions on important bits in a film. Like, character development, back stories, how they are dealing with issues. We saw R2D2 once in that film right, why didn't we get scenes where luke is trying to deal with stuff and talking to R2 so we can understand more of luke's mindset. Rey could have also used Chewy in this regard too, or something similar. Kylo Ren is kinda the only character who we learnt alot about him with ab it of development of understanding what happened to kinda take him to the dark side. But Snoke himself would been easy to put in 10 minutes of his backstory or something. To kill him off in a movie and as an audience we are supposed to be like wow he died wow, we need more of an understand of who he is, or you are just killing off a random character. Quite easy to add filler to the sub stories for all characters from Poe to Leia what they were doing during the transition from being happily at peace to being run out of the galaxy and hunted by the First Order. So much plot and character potential went wasted because he seemed to only focus on Kylo Ren and destroying the old Jedi vs Sith plot making it just a good vs evil story per se.
I am just trying to understand your point of view of why it is a good film to see if i missed anything. I am going to see episode 9 no matter what, i haven't watched TFA for a second time and probably won't until all 3 are out and watch them, this just made me sad at the end, first time ever for a film xD
I am not saying "it's good because it is different", I am saying it's good because it's a good star wars movie.
I agree with some of the points you are making btw. I wish there was no casino planet side plot, and more focus on Luke, Rey and Kylo. I think that the film had difficulty balancing so many "main characters" - Poe/luke/finn/rey/kylo/leia, but this was the material it had to work with. I actually thought that killing of Finn in his suicide defense would have been great since it would reduce the number of characters.
I think I made my point about Snoke dying - in essence, you knew just about as much as the Emperor when he died too. So I won't repeat this bit.
I also think that if you wanted to cover the backstory and side plots for all the characters, you'd have no space for the main plot. I thought Rey's acting was okay, but it looks like we'll subjectively disagree on this one.
What I think the film did great was:
For once, you had some emotional attachment to the nameless rebels. I felt sad seeing all of them die. Big change from random red shirts dying.
The Kylo Rey interactions were great, it made you guess whether Kylo would be redeemed, and in the end he ends up killing Snoke but still not redeemed, which is a great spin on the "redeem or no?" question.
The Kylo Rey fight was excellent, I'd say one of the best light sabre battles in the series.
I liked Luke's ruminations on the force and the legacy that he has left behind. To be honest it could not really be any other way - if his new Jedi order was burnt to the ground by his nephew, he could only be old and bitter, which is what Mark Hamil played him as.
Luke's death was fitting. Yeah, the projection was a bit of a cop out, but plot wise it was inevitable that something like this would happen - because if you had Kylo kill Luke then you would undermine Luke being one of the greatest Jedi, but if you had Luke kill Kylo then there would be no Episode 9.
Thematically, I really liked the idea that Rey is nobody, and that you don't need to be a Skywalker to save the galaxy. It's a great throw back to how Luke was just some farm boy, before all the nonsense about the chose one and some prophecy (that we still don't know the real meaning of).
And I kinda feel like that, actually, is what Star Wars is about. It's this thing that elevates all of us fans into this bigger universe. The last scene sort of encapsulates this feeling - you could be a stable boy with a broom, but you can still feel like you're holding a light saber and ready to save the universe.
I felt that TLJ really captured that sense of galactic adventure that star wars used to have, before it got a bit too burdened by the lore (which is also great, it just sometimes is too much).
I get some of your points but i don't get how it is a star wars movie when he re writes what a star wars movie is. Jedi + Rebels vs Sith + First Order. He turns it into a girl we no nothing about being the last "Jedi" vs Kylo Ren which we think is just a bad guy because he is messed up but isn't really part of the First Order even though by the end of the film he is ordering them to kill Rey and co. So he kinda is xD
Oh well, i just want Episode 9 to come out tomorrow First i guess we have to deal with the impending doom that is going to be the Han Solo movie which is destined for utter failure by the seems of things.
You mean yoda jedi master, who has studied the force over hundreds of years and lfiting the x-wing (not luke he fails) is comparable to rey lifting pretty much the equivalent amount of rocks with seemingly no effort and no training, i disagree, the gap between skill is too much to perform the same tasks. Im not saying that it requires 500 years or w/e amount of training to be abel to lift the x-wing but im sure it isnt some easily mastered skill.
The biggest interest for me (and like you say we all have different reasons for enjoy starwars, so ill just share mine) the concept of the force being the balance in the universe and these two partys the jedi and the sith who make use of this power. The jedi believe they have a more pure understanding of the force that its power is only borrowed and you can only really go with the flow of the force. The sith also believe to have a deeper understanding of the force to unlock the powers that could be there through rage, and emotion and the essence of purpose to change ur fate, Obviously neither are really complete in their understanding and arrogance is in both, they take these measures to the extreme, where the jedi arent meant to feel emotion and the sith try to use nothing but what they believe to be the strongest emotion which is hate and rage. The developemtn of the jedi and the sith is something i find really cool and i enjoy a lot of the EU to see how they came about.
The conflict between the two is just interesting because of the contrast and how they approach it, the rule 2 being a mindblowing idea when i read about it, and the latest quote from TLJ where luke tells the truth the jedi did become complacent in the height of their power. Thats cool, so when a being of the force comes into the third trilogy with the remenants of masterful sith skill, able to invade the mind of a force user ( remember 3 jedis trying to penerate the mind of a non-stupid non-force user), force lighting!!! (this significance cant be overlooked) Sidious never taught vader to use it, with dooku being the student to receive it and in the clonewars tv series it shows why sidious never teaches it to vader even in dooku's crappy hands its a powerful tool, and thus discards him for anakin.
Snoke and the emperor are the big bad guys like you said, and both just die with little explanation and back story. The difference being the setting. The introduction of eps 4,5,6 have established the empire ruling over the universe its the being of the story, when you're writting a story ur begining can happened anywhere under any condition because that were you chose to tell it. So you have to accept the situation to follow the story. Snoke came after the conclusion of ep 6, and with previous knowledge of sidious and the sith. So when you have basically stated that the rule of 2 has culminated in sidious and vader (not to say there arent users of the force that will use it in a sith like manner to manipulate stuff to their own gain aka harnessing the power of rage to use the force) But snoke is suddenly in command of a new empire the first order, posses mastery of the dark side of the force that otherwise only the sith of the rule of 2 possess. This isnt a problem so far like i said its the start of a story section, its okay to have snoke but i find it not okay to brush aside the explaination of how it came to be. I dont believe starwars would be where it is now, if there wasnt the lore behind it, of the sith and the jedi. I love the lore of starwars and for me personally TLJ is messing up the lore. What makes a starwars movie is the lore, if it doesnt have elements of the lore then it could be any other random sci-fi movie.
edit: just because we knew nothing about the emperor in ep6 doesnt make it a good reason to do it again its not like every thing in the ep6 is perfect writting, and the backstory of the emperor was so intriguing that theres like 10+ books and even more comics, tv shows on it.
On December 21 2017 20:23 Pandemona wrote: I get some of your points but i don't get how it is a star wars movie when he re writes what a star wars movie is. Jedi + Rebels vs Sith + First Order. He turns it into a girl we no nothing about being the last "Jedi" vs Kylo Ren which we think is just a bad guy because he is messed up but isn't really part of the First Order even though by the end of the film he is ordering them to kill Rey and co. So he kinda is xD
Oh well, i just want Episode 9 to come out tomorrow First i guess we have to deal with the impending doom that is going to be the Han Solo movie which is destined for utter failure by the seems of things.
I disagree that a star wars movie = Jedi and Rebels versus Sith and First Order. These have been big parts of the franchise, but that's not all of it.
Actually if you set aside all the knowledge you got from the Prequels and the EU and video games in the Original Trilogy, it was basically what you have now in the new movies. There is not much details on a grand jedi order. Force users are rare, and the war is fought and won by average joes. The word "sith" isn't even really used. Luke is a rando farm boy that turns out to have force powers, versus Vader who you know even less about.
On December 21 2017 19:52 Pandemona wrote: I get what your trying to say that it's a good star wars movie because it didn't continue the "set in stone" rigidness of old star wars films, it tried to be different. But taking that as a rule for it being good isn't fair imo as it is not a good film to be on it's own either due to subpar script and awful acting from the start and poor storytelling.
Also what are the important bits did it focus on instead in your opinion because i can't remember anything important or we have different opinions on important bits in a film. Like, character development, back stories, how they are dealing with issues. We saw R2D2 once in that film right, why didn't we get scenes where luke is trying to deal with stuff and talking to R2 so we can understand more of luke's mindset. Rey could have also used Chewy in this regard too, or something similar. Kylo Ren is kinda the only character who we learnt alot about him with ab it of development of understanding what happened to kinda take him to the dark side. But Snoke himself would been easy to put in 10 minutes of his backstory or something. To kill him off in a movie and as an audience we are supposed to be like wow he died wow, we need more of an understand of who he is, or you are just killing off a random character. Quite easy to add filler to the sub stories for all characters from Poe to Leia what they were doing during the transition from being happily at peace to being run out of the galaxy and hunted by the First Order. So much plot and character potential went wasted because he seemed to only focus on Kylo Ren and destroying the old Jedi vs Sith plot making it just a good vs evil story per se.
I am just trying to understand your point of view of why it is a good film to see if i missed anything. I am going to see episode 9 no matter what, i haven't watched TFA for a second time and probably won't until all 3 are out and watch them, this just made me sad at the end, first time ever for a film xD
I liked Luke's ruminations on the force and the legacy that he has left behind. To be honest it could not really be any other way - if his new Jedi order was burnt to the ground by his nephew, he could only be old and bitter, which is what Mark Hamil played him as.
Mark hamil isnt happy with the way luke is portrayed...his interview says he did it out of the interigity as an actor who must follow the vision of the director... secondly, i disagree that it makes sense, luke saw the good in vader. The person who has slaughtered so many people, the main focus of evil in the empire, no one sees good in him, no yoda, not obi-wan. LUKE does tho, and yet luke senses that ben is on the dark side (? which also isnt explained how if hes under luke tutor, and its not like kylo found his way to the dark side on his own due to luke but rather luke states it was snoke who had already turned his heart) and just runs over there to kill him, where he then realises his mistake where he felt shame for jumping to that conclusion of kylo falling to the dark side. Instead of finding kylo and believing in the good inside him he just mopes on an island.
On a side note, im definitely going to watch ep9, and all the smaller storys like the han solo movie and anything really they pump out because starwars lore is just cool.
On December 21 2017 20:30 Shock710 wrote: You mean yoda jedi master, who has studied the force over hundreds of years and lfiting the x-wing (not luke he fails) is comparable to rey lifting pretty much the equivalent amount of rocks with seemingly no effort and no training, i disagree, the gap between skill is too much to perform the same tasks. Im not saying that it requires 500 years or w/e amount of training to be abel to lift the x-wing but im sure it isnt some easily mastered skill.
The biggest interest for me (and like you say we all have different reasons for enjoy starwars, so ill just share mine) the concept of the force being the balance in the universe and these two partys the jedi and the sith who make use of this power. The jedi believe they have a more pure understanding of the force that its power is only borrowed and you can only really go with the flow of the force. The sith also believe to have a deeper understanding of the force to unlock the powers that could be there through rage, and emotion and the essence of purpose to change ur fate, Obviously neither are really complete in their understanding and arrogance is in both, they take these measures to the extreme, where the jedi arent meant to feel emotion and the sith try to use nothing but what they believe to be the strongest emotion which is hate and rage. The developemtn of the jedi and the sith is something i find really cool and i enjoy a lot of the EU to see how they came about.
The conflict between the two is just interesting because of the contrast and how they approach it, the rule 2 being a mindblowing idea when i read about it, and the latest quote from TLJ where luke tells the truth the jedi did become complacent in the height of their power. Thats cool, so when a being of the force comes into the third trilogy with the remenants of masterful sith skill, able to invade the mind of a force user ( remember 3 jedis trying to penerate the mind of a non-stupid non-force user), force lighting!!! (this significance cant be overlooked) Sidious never taught vader to use it, with dooku being the student to receive it and in the clonewars tv series it shows why sidious never teaches it to vader even in dooku's crappy hands its a powerful tool, and thus discards him for anakin.
Snoke and the emperor are the big bad guys like you said, and both just die with little explanation and back story. The difference being the setting. The introduction of eps 4,5,6 have established the empire ruling over the universe its the being of the story, when you're writting a story ur begining can happened anywhere under any condition because that were you chose to tell it. So you have to accept the situation to follow the story. Snoke came after the conclusion of ep 6, and with previous knowledge of sidious and the sith. So when you have basically stated that the rule of 2 has culminated in sidious and vader (not to say there arent users of the force that will use it in a sith like manner to manipulate stuff to their own gain aka harnessing the power of rage to use the force) But snoke is suddenly in command of a new empire the first order, posses mastery of the dark side of the force that otherwise only the sith of the rule of 2 possess. This isnt a problem so far like i said its the start of a story section, its okay to have snoke but i find it not okay to brush aside the explaination of how it came to be. I dont believe starwars would be where it is now, if there wasnt the lore behind it, of the sith and the jedi. I love the lore of starwars and for me personally TLJ is messing up the lore. What makes a starwars movie is the lore, if it doesnt have elements of the lore then it could be any other random sci-fi movie.
edit: just because we knew nothing about the emperor in ep6 doesnt make it a good reason to do it again its not like every thing in the ep6 is perfect writting, and the backstory of the emperor was so intriguing that theres like 10+ books and even more comics, tv shows on it.
Yeah see, I generally disagree that you can judge the quality of a character in a movie because there are books explaining how interesting he actually is. The emperor should just be see as what he was at the time. Sure the EU material is quite cool in revealing things about him, but I am sure that books are going to tell us who exactly is Snoke too, in time. So this comparison is unfair because the Emperor just has more non-movie backstory running around.
I don't see why Snoke must adhere to the rule of two. If the rule of two must be strictly applied, then it would be impossible for there to be more sith since both the Emperor and Vader died in ROTJ. You'd either need to have a second apprentice or second master during ROTJ that survived (breaking the rule), or some how in the gap between the trilogies Snoke independently discovered how to be a sith lord (which means you don't even need the rule of 2 anyway).
(short Nerd aside - I think the lore is that vader could not cast force lightning because he no longer had organic hands)
I also disagree that a star wars movie is about the lore. Lore is just the window dressing really, since it can be changed at any time. It's the spirit of the movies that is important.
On December 21 2017 19:52 Pandemona wrote: I get what your trying to say that it's a good star wars movie because it didn't continue the "set in stone" rigidness of old star wars films, it tried to be different. But taking that as a rule for it being good isn't fair imo as it is not a good film to be on it's own either due to subpar script and awful acting from the start and poor storytelling.
Also what are the important bits did it focus on instead in your opinion because i can't remember anything important or we have different opinions on important bits in a film. Like, character development, back stories, how they are dealing with issues. We saw R2D2 once in that film right, why didn't we get scenes where luke is trying to deal with stuff and talking to R2 so we can understand more of luke's mindset. Rey could have also used Chewy in this regard too, or something similar. Kylo Ren is kinda the only character who we learnt alot about him with ab it of development of understanding what happened to kinda take him to the dark side. But Snoke himself would been easy to put in 10 minutes of his backstory or something. To kill him off in a movie and as an audience we are supposed to be like wow he died wow, we need more of an understand of who he is, or you are just killing off a random character. Quite easy to add filler to the sub stories for all characters from Poe to Leia what they were doing during the transition from being happily at peace to being run out of the galaxy and hunted by the First Order. So much plot and character potential went wasted because he seemed to only focus on Kylo Ren and destroying the old Jedi vs Sith plot making it just a good vs evil story per se.
I am just trying to understand your point of view of why it is a good film to see if i missed anything. I am going to see episode 9 no matter what, i haven't watched TFA for a second time and probably won't until all 3 are out and watch them, this just made me sad at the end, first time ever for a film xD
I liked Luke's ruminations on the force and the legacy that he has left behind. To be honest it could not really be any other way - if his new Jedi order was burnt to the ground by his nephew, he could only be old and bitter, which is what Mark Hamil played him as.
Mark hamil isnt happy with the way luke is portrayed...his interview says he did it out of the interigity as an actor who must follow the vision of the director... secondly, i disagree that it makes sense, luke saw the good in vader. The person who has slaughtered so many people, the main focus of evil in the empire, no one sees good in him, no yoda, not obi-wan. LUKE does tho, and yet luke senses that ben is on the dark side (? which also isnt explained how if hes under luke tutor, and its not like kylo found his way to the dark side on his own due to luke but rather luke states it was snoke who had already turned his heart) and just runs over there to kill him, where he then realises his mistake where he felt shame for jumping to that conclusion of kylo falling to the dark side. Instead of finding kylo and believing in the good inside him he just mopes on an island.
I am not really sure if your take on Hamil is correct. Hamil has also given statements that he was initially not happy with Luke but in the end was convinced and got excited at the direction of the character ("I was quoted as saying to Rian that I fundamentally disagree with everything you decided about Luke, and it was inartfully phrased. What I was, was surprised at how he saw Luke. And it took me a while to get around to his way of thinking, but once I was there it was a thrilling experience. I hope it will be for the audience too.").
I can see where you are coming from - that Luke trying to kill Ben was a reversal for his character. It is definitely a change but at least for me, I think it was sufficiently explained - Luke wanted to kill him, realized his mistake immediately, and then had to pay the consequences of his choice. Luke has made really dumb decisions in the past (like in Empire), and so we know that Luke does not have perfect decision making.
Once the event happened, Luke saw his entire legacy literally go up in smoke, PLUS he had to live with the knowledge that he created a new vader from the son of his sister. I get that Luke did redeem Vader, but at the same time I can also see how what happened with Ben, and the personal knowledge that he himself had a personal role to play in the end of the Jedi Order, would have been pretty traumatic things to deal with. Luke as a character isn't meant to be perfect, and so I find it believable that he would choose the less perfect choice.
I'm generally pretty forgiving with most movies, but I hated TLJ. I found it to be tonally inconsistent with what I see as being Star Wars. I don't care if Rian wanted us to let go of the past themes and characters, he can let us say goodbye and move on without trashing what has come before; he has his own trilogy to tell the type of story he wants to, unencumbered by the past we all know and love.
Things I hated:
Subversion of expectation for the sake of it (made worse by virtue of the fact that there was so much subversion that some of it was not adequately replaced with anything interesting, and a lot of it is entirely pointless to the overall story). Rian, this is not 10 M. Night Shyamalan movie plots crammed into one Star Wars movie. Subversion loses its effect when used this way.
Characters wasted (Snoke, Finn, Phasma etc)
Characters destroyed in ways completely incongruent with what we've seen of them, Luke is the obvious example (and no you can't just hand wave this as 'head canon' as some of you seem so fond of doing, we're talking about things we've been demonstrated in the films, not something made up in our heads. Nothing shown in this movie sufficiently explains the shift and I don't accept the "It's years later, people change" - this is actually you creating some head canon)
Comedy was overused and used at the wrong times.
Rey remains the Mary Sue, and they wasted opportunity to consolidate and develop her character.
Inconsistencies in power of characters, e.g. Snoke so powerful in the force he can create Head-Skype, throw Rey about at will while managing other things etc, is killed by the turned sabre (which perhaps wouldn't be so bad if not for the fact that this occurs in a universe where Kylo was able to stop a blaster bolt by sensing it being fired and freezing it in place)
The useless, overly long casino island plot. And Poe after the first act...
The farcical, forced story and interaction between Finn and Rose... her sentiment for saving him was just so weak... I'll put aside whether it was even possible for her to actually catch up to and stop him in the scenario we were presented.
Yoda can interact with the physical world????
BB8 the terminator???
Super Leia - I even accept the science which says it's theoretically possible to survive in space for that period of time... Probably just not when you've just been blown to kingdom come... It was just so poorly done.
Laura Dern's (who I think I still have a childhood, Jurassic Park based crush on) character brought in for nothing of any lasting consequence, and used at the expense of someone like Admiral Ackbar who is tossed aside with a throw away line.
This movie was failed by so many things, I could literally write for hours... Anyway, credit where credit is due, Kylo was exceptionally well handled (except for how he killed Snoke), the film was beautiful and there were some incredible action set pieces
On December 21 2017 20:30 Shock710 wrote: You mean yoda jedi master, who has studied the force over hundreds of years and lfiting the x-wing (not luke he fails) is comparable to rey lifting pretty much the equivalent amount of rocks with seemingly no effort and no training, i disagree, the gap between skill is too much to perform the same tasks. Im not saying that it requires 500 years or w/e amount of training to be abel to lift the x-wing but im sure it isnt some easily mastered skill.
The biggest interest for me (and like you say we all have different reasons for enjoy starwars, so ill just share mine) the concept of the force being the balance in the universe and these two partys the jedi and the sith who make use of this power. The jedi believe they have a more pure understanding of the force that its power is only borrowed and you can only really go with the flow of the force. The sith also believe to have a deeper understanding of the force to unlock the powers that could be there through rage, and emotion and the essence of purpose to change ur fate, Obviously neither are really complete in their understanding and arrogance is in both, they take these measures to the extreme, where the jedi arent meant to feel emotion and the sith try to use nothing but what they believe to be the strongest emotion which is hate and rage. The developemtn of the jedi and the sith is something i find really cool and i enjoy a lot of the EU to see how they came about.
The conflict between the two is just interesting because of the contrast and how they approach it, the rule 2 being a mindblowing idea when i read about it, and the latest quote from TLJ where luke tells the truth the jedi did become complacent in the height of their power. Thats cool, so when a being of the force comes into the third trilogy with the remenants of masterful sith skill, able to invade the mind of a force user ( remember 3 jedis trying to penerate the mind of a non-stupid non-force user), force lighting!!! (this significance cant be overlooked) Sidious never taught vader to use it, with dooku being the student to receive it and in the clonewars tv series it shows why sidious never teaches it to vader even in dooku's crappy hands its a powerful tool, and thus discards him for anakin.
Snoke and the emperor are the big bad guys like you said, and both just die with little explanation and back story. The difference being the setting. The introduction of eps 4,5,6 have established the empire ruling over the universe its the being of the story, when you're writting a story ur begining can happened anywhere under any condition because that were you chose to tell it. So you have to accept the situation to follow the story. Snoke came after the conclusion of ep 6, and with previous knowledge of sidious and the sith. So when you have basically stated that the rule of 2 has culminated in sidious and vader (not to say there arent users of the force that will use it in a sith like manner to manipulate stuff to their own gain aka harnessing the power of rage to use the force) But snoke is suddenly in command of a new empire the first order, posses mastery of the dark side of the force that otherwise only the sith of the rule of 2 possess. This isnt a problem so far like i said its the start of a story section, its okay to have snoke but i find it not okay to brush aside the explaination of how it came to be. I dont believe starwars would be where it is now, if there wasnt the lore behind it, of the sith and the jedi. I love the lore of starwars and for me personally TLJ is messing up the lore. What makes a starwars movie is the lore, if it doesnt have elements of the lore then it could be any other random sci-fi movie.
edit: just because we knew nothing about the emperor in ep6 doesnt make it a good reason to do it again its not like every thing in the ep6 is perfect writting, and the backstory of the emperor was so intriguing that theres like 10+ books and even more comics, tv shows on it.
Yeah see, I generally disagree that you can judge the quality of a character in a movie because there are books explaining how interesting he actually is. The emperor should just be see as what he was at the time. Sure the EU material is quite cool in revealing things about him, but I am sure that books are going to tell us who exactly is Snoke too, in time. So this comparison is unfair because the Emperor just has more non-movie backstory running around.
I don't see why Snoke must adhere to the rule of two. If the rule of two must be strictly applied, then it would be impossible for there to be more sith since both the Emperor and Vader died in ROTJ. You'd either need to have a second apprentice or second master during ROTJ that survived (breaking the rule), or some how in the gap between the trilogies Snoke independently discovered how to be a sith lord (which means you don't even need the rule of 2 anyway).
(short Nerd aside - I think the lore is that vader could not cast force lightning because he no longer had organic hands)
I also disagree that a star wars movie is about the lore. Lore is just the window dressing really, since it can be changed at any time. It's the spirit of the movies that is important.
The rule of 2 is just a master and apprentice, it doesnt mean there are no other users of the dark side. Think of it like this, darth bane kills all the sith leaving only him and his apprentice to start the rule of 2, where they both study the dark side of the force and he teaches her everything he knows till she can kill him with said improved knowledge and repeat down the line. But that doesnt mean that force sensitive users are now all automatically jedi, you can imagine and random kid on a planet discovering he has some form of the force and then without realising it using the dark side of the force to attack some slaver or w/e. But techniques like force lighting are kinda like a developed art theres alot of forms of how it perfoms in the EU but with sidious basically having the most control and power of it. That being said its speculated that the no hands thing/the lighitng will interfere with ur suit is just sidious excuse not to teach him rather than being the real reason, as you dont need hands to do any other force move plus you think that vader would see the force lighting and ask hey can i learn that?
But basically yeah dark side users can exist without the rule of 2 (hell if not how would they find apprentices) but the point is cultivating that student to all the secrets of the dark side that the rule of 2 has yield. So either snoke is an apprentice of dooku (he did try to take upon his own and overthrow sidious...didnt work obviously) or plagueis himself or some other good explanation. But for him to be a dark force user outside of the rule of 2 and arise to his current position and level of power doesnt seem right.
Btw what im trying to point out with the emperors backstory being filled by books was that while it was necessary to the fandom, it would have been nice to have some of it in the movie. Now with people knowing that, theres no reason to leave snokes story in books when you can tell it in the movie.
I don't know why everyone is harping about Rey having "non imporant" Parents and how this is supposed to be something earthshattering... I haven't read anyone that said he has a real Problem with that. Some tought it would be better if her Parents were important, some not, but I have no one seen hating on the Movie for this reason.
All the other things missing that were set up in TFA make this feel very strange as a Sequel and aside from some development for Kylo and maybe a bit for Poe there just wasn't much happening.
On December 21 2017 20:30 Shock710 wrote: You mean yoda jedi master, who has studied the force over hundreds of years and lfiting the x-wing (not luke he fails) is comparable to rey lifting pretty much the equivalent amount of rocks with seemingly no effort and no training, i disagree, the gap between skill is too much to perform the same tasks. Im not saying that it requires 500 years or w/e amount of training to be abel to lift the x-wing but im sure it isnt some easily mastered skill.
The biggest interest for me (and like you say we all have different reasons for enjoy starwars, so ill just share mine) the concept of the force being the balance in the universe and these two partys the jedi and the sith who make use of this power. The jedi believe they have a more pure understanding of the force that its power is only borrowed and you can only really go with the flow of the force. The sith also believe to have a deeper understanding of the force to unlock the powers that could be there through rage, and emotion and the essence of purpose to change ur fate, Obviously neither are really complete in their understanding and arrogance is in both, they take these measures to the extreme, where the jedi arent meant to feel emotion and the sith try to use nothing but what they believe to be the strongest emotion which is hate and rage. The developemtn of the jedi and the sith is something i find really cool and i enjoy a lot of the EU to see how they came about.
The conflict between the two is just interesting because of the contrast and how they approach it, the rule 2 being a mindblowing idea when i read about it, and the latest quote from TLJ where luke tells the truth the jedi did become complacent in the height of their power. Thats cool, so when a being of the force comes into the third trilogy with the remenants of masterful sith skill, able to invade the mind of a force user ( remember 3 jedis trying to penerate the mind of a non-stupid non-force user), force lighting!!! (this significance cant be overlooked) Sidious never taught vader to use it, with dooku being the student to receive it and in the clonewars tv series it shows why sidious never teaches it to vader even in dooku's crappy hands its a powerful tool, and thus discards him for anakin.
Snoke and the emperor are the big bad guys like you said, and both just die with little explanation and back story. The difference being the setting. The introduction of eps 4,5,6 have established the empire ruling over the universe its the being of the story, when you're writting a story ur begining can happened anywhere under any condition because that were you chose to tell it. So you have to accept the situation to follow the story. Snoke came after the conclusion of ep 6, and with previous knowledge of sidious and the sith. So when you have basically stated that the rule of 2 has culminated in sidious and vader (not to say there arent users of the force that will use it in a sith like manner to manipulate stuff to their own gain aka harnessing the power of rage to use the force) But snoke is suddenly in command of a new empire the first order, posses mastery of the dark side of the force that otherwise only the sith of the rule of 2 possess. This isnt a problem so far like i said its the start of a story section, its okay to have snoke but i find it not okay to brush aside the explaination of how it came to be. I dont believe starwars would be where it is now, if there wasnt the lore behind it, of the sith and the jedi. I love the lore of starwars and for me personally TLJ is messing up the lore. What makes a starwars movie is the lore, if it doesnt have elements of the lore then it could be any other random sci-fi movie.
edit: just because we knew nothing about the emperor in ep6 doesnt make it a good reason to do it again its not like every thing in the ep6 is perfect writting, and the backstory of the emperor was so intriguing that theres like 10+ books and even more comics, tv shows on it.
Yeah see, I generally disagree that you can judge the quality of a character in a movie because there are books explaining how interesting he actually is. The emperor should just be see as what he was at the time. Sure the EU material is quite cool in revealing things about him, but I am sure that books are going to tell us who exactly is Snoke too, in time. So this comparison is unfair because the Emperor just has more non-movie backstory running around.
I don't see why Snoke must adhere to the rule of two. If the rule of two must be strictly applied, then it would be impossible for there to be more sith since both the Emperor and Vader died in ROTJ. You'd either need to have a second apprentice or second master during ROTJ that survived (breaking the rule), or some how in the gap between the trilogies Snoke independently discovered how to be a sith lord (which means you don't even need the rule of 2 anyway).
(short Nerd aside - I think the lore is that vader could not cast force lightning because he no longer had organic hands)
I also disagree that a star wars movie is about the lore. Lore is just the window dressing really, since it can be changed at any time. It's the spirit of the movies that is important.
The rule of 2 is just a master and apprentice, it doesnt mean there are no other users of the dark side. Think of it like this, darth bane kills all the sith leaving only him and his apprentice to start the rule of 2, where they both study the dark side of the force and he teaches her everything he knows till she can kill him with said improved knowledge and repeat down the line. But that doesnt mean that force sensitive users are now all automatically jedi, you can imagine and random kid on a planet discovering he has some form of the force and then without realising it using the dark side of the force to attack some slaver or w/e. But techniques like force lighting are kinda like a developed art theres alot of forms of how it perfoms in the EU but with sidious basically having the most control and power of it. That being said its speculated that the no hands thing/the lighitng will interfere with ur suit is just sidious excuse not to teach him rather than being the real reason, as you dont need hands to do any other force move plus you think that vader would see the force lighting and ask hey can i learn that?
But basically yeah dark side users can exist without the rule of 2 (hell if not how would they find apprentices) but the point is cultivating that student to all the secrets of the dark side that the rule of 2 has yield. So either snoke is an apprentice of dooku (he did try to take upon his own and overthrow sidious...didnt work obviously) or plagueis himself or some other good explanation. But for him to be a dark force user outside of the rule of 2 and arise to his current position and level of power doesnt seem right.
Btw what im trying to point out with the emperors backstory being filled by books was that while it was necessary to the fandom, it would have been nice to have some of it in the movie. Now with people knowing that, theres no reason to leave snokes story in books when you can tell it in the movie.
My recollection is different (sorry lol too lazy to research this right now) - but the rule of two literally means there shall only be 2 sith at any given time.
As the last surviving sith of the war, Bane realized that the big groups of sith lead to infighting and weakness, and so he started the rule of 2 to eventually take revenge against the Jedi by stealth rather than force of arms.
Because the rule of 2 meant that Sith were super few in number, there have been a couple of eras where the Sith basically declared the rule of 2 as being over, so that they can build up their numbers again.
Edit - the rule of 2 meant master and apprentice, then it would be pretty similar to what the Jedi have (well except the apprentice is not suppose to kill the master).
On December 21 2017 21:09 Velr wrote: I don't know why everyone is harping about Rey having "non imporant" Parents and how this is supposed to be something earthshattering... I haven't read anyone that said he has a real Problem with that. Some tought it would be better if her Parents were important, some not, but I have no one seen hating on the Movie for this reason.
All the other things missing that were set up in TFA make this feel very strange as a Sequel and aside from some development for Kylo and maybe a bit for Poe there just wasn't much happening.
I think that the complaint about Rey's parents is that it was set up as a mystery and some people find the answer (and the way the answer was delivered) to be pretty anti-climatic.
To be fair... Abrams was responsible for a similar problem in the Star Trek movies where there was the whole not Kahn, joking! it really is Kahn fiasco
On December 21 2017 20:30 Shock710 wrote: You mean yoda jedi master, who has studied the force over hundreds of years and lfiting the x-wing (not luke he fails) is comparable to rey lifting pretty much the equivalent amount of rocks with seemingly no effort and no training, i disagree, the gap between skill is too much to perform the same tasks. Im not saying that it requires 500 years or w/e amount of training to be abel to lift the x-wing but im sure it isnt some easily mastered skill.
The biggest interest for me (and like you say we all have different reasons for enjoy starwars, so ill just share mine) the concept of the force being the balance in the universe and these two partys the jedi and the sith who make use of this power. The jedi believe they have a more pure understanding of the force that its power is only borrowed and you can only really go with the flow of the force. The sith also believe to have a deeper understanding of the force to unlock the powers that could be there through rage, and emotion and the essence of purpose to change ur fate, Obviously neither are really complete in their understanding and arrogance is in both, they take these measures to the extreme, where the jedi arent meant to feel emotion and the sith try to use nothing but what they believe to be the strongest emotion which is hate and rage. The developemtn of the jedi and the sith is something i find really cool and i enjoy a lot of the EU to see how they came about.
The conflict between the two is just interesting because of the contrast and how they approach it, the rule 2 being a mindblowing idea when i read about it, and the latest quote from TLJ where luke tells the truth the jedi did become complacent in the height of their power. Thats cool, so when a being of the force comes into the third trilogy with the remenants of masterful sith skill, able to invade the mind of a force user ( remember 3 jedis trying to penerate the mind of a non-stupid non-force user), force lighting!!! (this significance cant be overlooked) Sidious never taught vader to use it, with dooku being the student to receive it and in the clonewars tv series it shows why sidious never teaches it to vader even in dooku's crappy hands its a powerful tool, and thus discards him for anakin.
Snoke and the emperor are the big bad guys like you said, and both just die with little explanation and back story. The difference being the setting. The introduction of eps 4,5,6 have established the empire ruling over the universe its the being of the story, when you're writting a story ur begining can happened anywhere under any condition because that were you chose to tell it. So you have to accept the situation to follow the story. Snoke came after the conclusion of ep 6, and with previous knowledge of sidious and the sith. So when you have basically stated that the rule of 2 has culminated in sidious and vader (not to say there arent users of the force that will use it in a sith like manner to manipulate stuff to their own gain aka harnessing the power of rage to use the force) But snoke is suddenly in command of a new empire the first order, posses mastery of the dark side of the force that otherwise only the sith of the rule of 2 possess. This isnt a problem so far like i said its the start of a story section, its okay to have snoke but i find it not okay to brush aside the explaination of how it came to be. I dont believe starwars would be where it is now, if there wasnt the lore behind it, of the sith and the jedi. I love the lore of starwars and for me personally TLJ is messing up the lore. What makes a starwars movie is the lore, if it doesnt have elements of the lore then it could be any other random sci-fi movie.
edit: just because we knew nothing about the emperor in ep6 doesnt make it a good reason to do it again its not like every thing in the ep6 is perfect writting, and the backstory of the emperor was so intriguing that theres like 10+ books and even more comics, tv shows on it.
Yeah see, I generally disagree that you can judge the quality of a character in a movie because there are books explaining how interesting he actually is. The emperor should just be see as what he was at the time. Sure the EU material is quite cool in revealing things about him, but I am sure that books are going to tell us who exactly is Snoke too, in time. So this comparison is unfair because the Emperor just has more non-movie backstory running around.
I don't see why Snoke must adhere to the rule of two. If the rule of two must be strictly applied, then it would be impossible for there to be more sith since both the Emperor and Vader died in ROTJ. You'd either need to have a second apprentice or second master during ROTJ that survived (breaking the rule), or some how in the gap between the trilogies Snoke independently discovered how to be a sith lord (which means you don't even need the rule of 2 anyway).
(short Nerd aside - I think the lore is that vader could not cast force lightning because he no longer had organic hands)
I also disagree that a star wars movie is about the lore. Lore is just the window dressing really, since it can be changed at any time. It's the spirit of the movies that is important.
The rule of 2 is just a master and apprentice, it doesnt mean there are no other users of the dark side. Think of it like this, darth bane kills all the sith leaving only him and his apprentice to start the rule of 2, where they both study the dark side of the force and he teaches her everything he knows till she can kill him with said improved knowledge and repeat down the line. But that doesnt mean that force sensitive users are now all automatically jedi, you can imagine and random kid on a planet discovering he has some form of the force and then without realising it using the dark side of the force to attack some slaver or w/e. But techniques like force lighting are kinda like a developed art theres alot of forms of how it perfoms in the EU but with sidious basically having the most control and power of it. That being said its speculated that the no hands thing/the lighitng will interfere with ur suit is just sidious excuse not to teach him rather than being the real reason, as you dont need hands to do any other force move plus you think that vader would see the force lighting and ask hey can i learn that?
But basically yeah dark side users can exist without the rule of 2 (hell if not how would they find apprentices) but the point is cultivating that student to all the secrets of the dark side that the rule of 2 has yield. So either snoke is an apprentice of dooku (he did try to take upon his own and overthrow sidious...didnt work obviously) or plagueis himself or some other good explanation. But for him to be a dark force user outside of the rule of 2 and arise to his current position and level of power doesnt seem right.
Btw what im trying to point out with the emperors backstory being filled by books was that while it was necessary to the fandom, it would have been nice to have some of it in the movie. Now with people knowing that, theres no reason to leave snokes story in books when you can tell it in the movie.
My recollection is different (sorry lol too lazy to research this right now) - but the rule of two literally means there shall only be 2 sith at any given time.
As the last surviving sith of the war, Bane realized that the big groups of sith lead to infighting and weakness, and so he started the rule of 2 to eventually take revenge against the Jedi by stealth rather than force of arms.
Because the rule of 2 meant that Sith were super few in number, there have been a couple of eras where the Sith basically declared the rule of 2 as being over, so that they can build up their numbers again.
Edit - the rule of 2 meant master and apprentice, then it would be pretty similar to what the Jedi have (well except the apprentice is not suppose to kill the master).
i dont see how what you're saying is different or conflicts with what i was saying, yeah theres only two sith at a time but theres dark force users in general or at least force users who are prone to the seduction of the dark side. otherwise after the student kills the master how does he take on a new student. The exception being that sidious under plageis wanted to live forever, and sidious not wanting to follow the rule of 2 where he is killed by his apprentice. But the main reason isnt just because 2 sith can do more sneaky attacks but rather theres a focus on learning going on between the two so that they can eventually become strong without interference from the jedi.
edit: ventress, dooku and sidious being present at the same time (while not sith lords per se they were sith) as dooku realised sidious was never intending to follow the rule of 2 by training him to his pure potential and give him access to all the secrets, so he employed ventress under him so they would be able to kill sidious. aka 3 sith at one times (...they kinda had 4 with savage but w/e he was kinda a idiot with just raw emotion dark side)
edit: from the wiki "a master to embody the power of the dark side of the Force, and an apprentice to crave it." basically the apprentice gains enough power to kill the master, then finds a new apprentice to do the same to him until so each generation is pretty much stronger than the last with sidious being the final one.
On December 21 2017 05:52 riotjune wrote: Saw it this morning, can't say I liked it.
Flynn and Rose kept failing and were entirely useless, you could've removed them from the movie and nothing would've changed. Same goes for Poe after his X-wing rampage from the opening act. Throne room fight was cool I guess.
Luke being a miserable old man who was supposed to be this legend just made me miserable. Got my hopes up during his stare down with the AT-ATs, was kinda disappointed. Thought the Kung Fu Panda showdown with the cannon boats near the end of the second movie was more climatic. Skywalker dies alone, he deserved better than this.
After decades of conflict (and waiting for sequels), we're back to where we started.
The best thing about The Last Jedi is that Finn and Rose fail miserably, because this movie breaks all Star Wars rules. It's not some dumb luck plan saving our heroes, it's Luke, who steps in as their last hope.
That could have worked for me if it was executed better.
Here are the problems I have with it:
There are no negative consequences for their failure. The net result of failing is they are in the exact same spot as if they never tried in the first place.
Getting into and out of the failed plan took just as much unlikely luck as if they succeeded. They just happen to meet another code breaker in their cell capable of doing what they need, even though he could have broken himself out at any time?
He takes their word that they can pay him, gives the temporary payment back because he is a good guy. Then he betrays them with information that we have no idea how or why he was given and for some reason the New Order pays him for that betrayal and lets him go even though he was the one who broke the rebels in...
The rebels are taken from where they were captured to the hangar bays for no reason. An explosion some how makes everyone except for Finn and Rose to fall down or disappear around them just as they are about to be executed and they escape with no losses while all the New Order die.
Net result is that nothing changed from that whole plot line, and the individual things that needed to happen for that to be the case were just as unlikely as having the plan succeed.
Pretty sure there will be background material for Snoke that will come out in the future. From Episode VI to Phantom Menace, it has been 16 or so years gap that a lot of new material/lore had came out. Don't get why people are furious about Snoke having no background. Wonder if people during the 80's hated the film just because Palpatine has no background.
On December 21 2017 05:52 riotjune wrote: Saw it this morning, can't say I liked it.
Flynn and Rose kept failing and were entirely useless, you could've removed them from the movie and nothing would've changed. Same goes for Poe after his X-wing rampage from the opening act. Throne room fight was cool I guess.
Luke being a miserable old man who was supposed to be this legend just made me miserable. Got my hopes up during his stare down with the AT-ATs, was kinda disappointed. Thought the Kung Fu Panda showdown with the cannon boats near the end of the second movie was more climatic. Skywalker dies alone, he deserved better than this.
After decades of conflict (and waiting for sequels), we're back to where we started.
The best thing about The Last Jedi is that Finn and Rose fail miserably, because this movie breaks all Star Wars rules. It's not some dumb luck plan saving our heroes, it's Luke, who steps in as their last hope.
That could have worked for me if it was executed better.
Here are the problems I have with it:
There are no negative consequences for their failure. The net result of failing is they are in the exact same spot as if they never tried in the first place.
Getting into and out of the failed plan took just as much unlikely luck as if they succeeded. They just happen to meet another code breaker in their cell capable of doing what they need, even though he could have broken himself out at any time?
He takes their word that they can pay him, gives the temporary payment back because he is a good guy. Then he betrays them with information that we have no idea how or why he was given and for some reason the New Order pays him for that betrayal and lets him go even though he was the one who broke the rebels in...
The rebels are taken from where they were captured to the hangar bays for no reason. An explosion some how makes everyone except for Finn and Rose to fall down or disappear around them just as they are about to be executed and they escape with no losses while all the New Order die.
Net result is that nothing changed from that whole plot line, and the individual things that needed to happen for that to be the case were just as unlikely as having the plan succeed.
i just wanna say that he gets the information to betray them, because fin and poe are communicating in the ship to get there and for some reason fin has it on loud speaker so it broadcasts to the whole room. The camera actually pans to him after the conversation happens about the plan and he even looks up as a sign of interest (noticed it on my second watch through)
On December 21 2017 22:33 shin_toss wrote: Pretty sure there will be background material for Snoke that will come out in the future. From Episode VI to Phantom Menace, it has been 16 or so years gap that a lot of new material/lore had came out. Don't get why people are furious about Snoke having no background. Wonder if people during the 80's hated the film just because Palpatine has no background.
The emperor wasn't inserted into an already existing story line with no explanation, which is a huge difference. And though I wasn't a fan of the prequels, they revolve around the emperor and how he came into power. His death also brought about the end of the trilogy and the Empire, it didn't happen as a side note in the middle of Empire Strikes Back.
The problem for me is having the biggest story line revolve around Ben Solo being corrupted by Snoke while he was being personally trained by Luke, with no explanation of how that happened, and having everything that was accomplished by Luke and the rebellion in the original trilogy wiped away as if it never happened with no explanation of how the First Order came into power.
Snoke is portrayed as so powerful he can connect minds of force users without them knowing he was responsible, implies he can read minds, throws Rey around like a rag doll and re-conquered the galaxy with the New Order. He was killed by an apprentice who has already been defeated by an untrained Rey, by basically tricking him. It just wasn't a satisfying story arc for me.
On December 21 2017 23:08 karazax wrote: The emperor wasn't inserted into an already existing story line with no explanation, which is a huge difference. And though I wasn't a fan of the prequels, they revolve around the emperor and how he came into power. His death also brought about the end of the trilogy and the Empire, it didn't happen as a side note in the middle of Empire Strikes Back.
On December 21 2017 23:08 karazax wrote: The emperor wasn't inserted into an already existing story line with no explanation, which is a huge difference. And though I wasn't a fan of the prequels, they revolve around the emperor and how he came into power. His death also brought about the end of the trilogy and the Empire, it didn't happen as a side note in the middle of Empire Strikes Back.
But that's pretty much exactly what happened?
yeah but how is that a good story telling idea, i didnt watch ep6 in the cinema so i cant say for people at the time. But the question of the emperor and wtf he was only redeemed through the EU and the prequel explaination. But just because it happened doesnt mean it was a good move, its a stupid to expect books to fill in ur universe when you have the option to tell it. Ep6 isnt cinematic perfection, theres no need to mirror everything and be like "oh the OT had it so it must be good"
On December 21 2017 23:08 karazax wrote: The emperor wasn't inserted into an already existing story line with no explanation, which is a huge difference. And though I wasn't a fan of the prequels, they revolve around the emperor and how he came into power. His death also brought about the end of the trilogy and the Empire, it didn't happen as a side note in the middle of Empire Strikes Back.
But that's pretty much exactly what happened?
It's not what happened at all. There was no pre-existing story line for Star Wars with the original trilogy. With this trilogy the original trilogy is the pre-existing story line, but we are some how in a worse spot for the republic than in A New Hope with no explanation of how we got there.
The emperor's death and Vader's redemption was the conclusion of the original trilogy. If Palpatine died the first time we met him in person in the middle of Empire Strikes Back, then I would have had problems with that too.
I honestly don't think Snoke is really gone, because of little hints here and there. Just one example is Luke telling Leia, “No one's ever really gone.” And...if Snoke really is Darth Plagueis he knows how to come back from the dead, just look at his transformation from Episode VII (right) to Episode VIII (left): He's clearly regenerating. [source] I think he's consuming force users to regenerate, that's why we don't get to see the other Padawans, who followed Kylo ....Snoke consumed them to gain strength and that's why he wanted Luke so badly. So...yeah I think he'll be back....at least half of him, just like Darth Maul.
I remember Luke or Kylo saying some apprentices followed Kylo when he burned Luke's temple. Does that mean we'll see them in the third movie or I missed something and they're dead now?
On December 21 2017 08:43 shin_toss wrote: watched the movie during the first day and first screening. Probably the best one I liked. A modern star wars on its own story. I liked TFA too but after several times watching it, theres, too much fan service and similarity to the orig trilogy. I liked TLJ more. 9/10 for me. Tried to nitpick after the movie and I only found very few.
I only find the Rey x Kylo, telepathic scenes a little weird. They could have done more, like in the mind or something. And not too literal talking.
Just hoping whoever writes the third will have the balls to let the bad guys kill some good guys.
what do you mean? kylo just stabbed his father with a light saber in TFA, Luke just went immortal mode (good as dead) , 90% of the main rebellion is dead. In the orig trilogy, not even one main good guy died.
I mean killed like Qui-Gon was killed, or something like Padme's death. I want the bad guys to murder at least one good guy like Poe. Otherwise they'd end up looking hilariously incompentent, like Power Rangers villains, always failing at killing characters who don't surrender their lives to them like Han Solo or that purple haired admiral did. Killing "redshirt" characters doesn't count.
I think it was cool to see Kylo Ren or Hux in TFA as young villains who still make mistakes, but expected the bad side to "mature up" in the next two movies. Instead, Hux continues to be pretty much a comedy relief character. Kylo made some progress by throwing his mask away, but he's still far from who I hoped he'll become. I'm afraid it won't change in the next movie, which means the final scenes of that movie won't feel as tense as those from from Episode III or VI.
I'm trying to say that the lack of powerful and charismatic villains in the first two movies will lead to an unengaging finale, like that of the Hobbit instead of something cool like LotR's ending.
thePunGun above offers some interesting potential answers to my problems.
I considered the Darth Plagueis idea and was hoping that was the case when it happened honestly. The death was so under whelming to me that I was convinced this was his clone or something and he was still alive, but no clue to signify that appeared for the rest of the movie. If that picture isn't just a case of a different camera angle making it look like his face changed, it's hardly the level of super human regen that would project to recover from being cut in half by the next movie. That would be a hard sell. That left me with the clone or force projection idea, but it's hard to imagine the First Order would fall into Kylo's control if Snoke was still alive some where else.
On December 21 2017 23:08 karazax wrote: The emperor wasn't inserted into an already existing story line with no explanation, which is a huge difference. And though I wasn't a fan of the prequels, they revolve around the emperor and how he came into power. His death also brought about the end of the trilogy and the Empire, it didn't happen as a side note in the middle of Empire Strikes Back.
But that's pretty much exactly what happened?
It's not what happened at all. There was no pre-existing story line for Star Wars with the original trilogy. With this trilogy the original trilogy is the pre-existing story line, but we are some how in a worse spot for the republic than in A New Hope with no explanation of how we got there.
The emperor's death and Vader's redemption was the conclusion of the original trilogy. If Palpatine died the first time we met him in person in the middle of Empire Strikes Back, then I would have had problems with that too.
The Emperor was mentioned in one line in A New Hope, and then by 1980 he's this weird looking dude in a hologram. We don't know who he is or what he does or what he wants, besides having a job title and wanting to kill Luke Skywalker.
Of course, the more interesting question is what Rian Johnson is saying by killing off Snoke in the second film. In a film that's about letting the past die, killing it if necessary.
On December 22 2017 01:52 karazax wrote: I considered the Darth Plagueis idea and was hoping that was the case when it happened honestly. The death was so under whelming to me that I was convinced this was his clone or something and he was still alive, but no clue to signify that appeared for the rest of the movie. If that picture isn't just a case of a different camera angle making it look like his face changed, it's hardly the level of super human regen that would project to recover from being cut in half by the next movie. That would be a hard sell. That left me with the clone or force projection idea, but it's hard to imagine the First Order would fall into Kylo's control if Snoke was still alive some where else.
Just look at Snoke's head, it has been split in half by a lightsaber (probably by Sidious) and it grew back together. Like his former apprentice said, "he has the power to create life" and he'll cheat death again and regenerate. Also Snoke doesn't look like a human, he looks like a Muun. (Darth Plagueis was a Muun)
On December 22 2017 01:52 karazax wrote: I considered the Darth Plagueis idea and was hoping that was the case when it happened honestly. The death was so under whelming to me that I was convinced this was his clone or something and he was still alive, but no clue to signify that appeared for the rest of the movie. If that picture isn't just a case of a different camera angle making it look like his face changed, it's hardly the level of super human regen that would project to recover from being cut in half by the next movie. That would be a hard sell. That left me with the clone or force projection idea, but it's hard to imagine the First Order would fall into Kylo's control if Snoke was still alive some where else.
Just look at Snoke's head, it has been split in half by a lightsaber (probably by Sidious) and it grew back together. Like his former apprentice said, "he has the power to create life" and he'll cheat death again and regenerate. Also Snoke doesn't look like a human, he looks like a Muun. (Darth Plagueis was a Muun)
Maybe, or maybe whatever race he is just looks like that or he just has physical deformities. Regardless if he has been in the process of regenning since Sidious betrayed him, it's a hard sell to think he is going to heal from being cut in half by next movie to be a factor.
On December 22 2017 01:23 thePunGun wrote: I honestly don't think Snoke is really gone, because of little hints here and there. Just one example is Luke telling Leia, “No one's ever really gone.” And...if Snoke really is Darth Plagueis he knows how to come back from the dead, just look at his transformation from Episode VII (right) to Episode VIII (left): He's clearly regenerating. [source] I think he's consuming force users to regenerate, that's why we don't get to see the other Padawans, who followed Kylo ....Snoke consumed them to gain strength and that's why he wanted Luke so badly. So...yeah I think he'll be back....at least half of him, just like Darth Maul.
I think that's just the CGI being a bit different, he has those buttons (I dunno the exact English word) on his forehead in 8 and not in 7 pretty sure he didn't grew those with the force. It would be some crazy stretching explanation to fit into one movie who really don't need Snoke right now.
Kylo doesnt realise his knights of ren are being consumed and killed by snoke and him regenerating? What every week a force comrade just mystery disappears as snoke loses some scars and he still goes ahead with a betrayal?
It also brings into question how much kylo knows about snoke, he would have had to talked to kylo enough and conviced him that the dark side had more power and there was enough of a lure to switch him over. Snoke cant have just appeares with no explaination of himself to kylo dazzled some dark side power and got him to switch over.
Also plageis is munn is one of the things that was retconned, he could be anything (a munn too but he doesnt look like it apart from being tall).
Its like hi ben im darth plageis master of death my former apprentice tried to kill me but hey im back alive oh what ur gonna try tgat too
On December 22 2017 08:37 Shock710 wrote: Kylo doesnt realise his knights of ren are being consumed and killed by snoke and him regenerating? What every week a force comrade just mystery disappears as snoke loses some scars and he still goes ahead with a betrayal?
It also brings into question how much kylo knows about snoke, he would have had to talked to kylo enough and conviced him that the dark side had more power and there was enough of a lure to switch him over. Snoke cant have just appeares with no explaination of himself to kylo dazzled some dark side power and got him to switch over.
Also plageis is munn is one of the things that was retconned, he could be anything (a munn too but he doesnt look like it apart from being tall).
Its like hi ben im darth plageis master of death my former apprentice tried to kill me but hey im back alive oh what ur gonna try tgat too
This would lead to pretty funny conversations around the First Order office. "Hey have you seen Bob Ren?" "Snoke: um... he got posted out... to the accounting department... at Hoth"
Realistically though you can explain that away if you wanted to - Snoke could have let Kylo know all along that he was sucking up the souls of the other knights. Like a hunger games sort of deal where the last one standing becomes the apprentice.
Plagueis "died" to Sideous prior to the prequels. If Snoke was Plagueis, he was still healing from that "death", which happened before Anakin was even born. How would they plausibly explain him recovering from being cut in half in the time between now and the next movie if he hasn't fully recovered from wounds that happened like 85 years ago or more?
I super don't think its Plagueis, I mean christ how much of an idiot do you need to be to die to your apprentices TWICE. In a row!
He was way too cocky for a Sith Lord of Plagueis' magnitude, I mean his manipulation of Kylo Ren is so apparent, and he virtually just out right says how eaaassy it is to manipulate Kylo.
Also why is noone a Darth? Is the true Sith Lord someone else, a Darth Someone?
On December 22 2017 12:38 Zambrah wrote: Also why is noone a Darth? Is the true Sith Lord someone else, a Darth Someone?
Kind of late to introduce someone new in Episode 9 right? Especially when there is a lot of unresolved ground with Kylo to cover. My guess is the sith are absent. Snoke trained another apprentice apparently so maybe they will make an appearance.
Palpatine appears in Battlefront 2 though - so dunno what that is about or if it has any relation.
On December 22 2017 12:38 Zambrah wrote: Also why is noone a Darth? Is the true Sith Lord someone else, a Darth Someone?
Kind of late to introduce someone new in Episode 9 right? Especially when there is a lot of unresolved ground with Kylo to cover. My guess is the sith are absent. Snoke trained another apprentice apparently so maybe they will make an appearance.
Palpatine appears in Battlefront 2 though - so dunno what that is about or if it has any relation.
They've classified anything outside of the movies and the rebels TV show as being "soft cannon" which means that only the movies and the rebels TV show are the writ of the lore god. Anything else is sure why not as long as it doesn't conflict in some possible way with the movies and or rebels tv show.
On December 22 2017 12:38 Zambrah wrote: Also why is noone a Darth? Is the true Sith Lord someone else, a Darth Someone?
Kind of late to introduce someone new in Episode 9 right? Especially when there is a lot of unresolved ground with Kylo to cover. My guess is the sith are absent. Snoke trained another apprentice apparently so maybe they will make an appearance.
Palpatine appears in Battlefront 2 though - so dunno what that is about or if it has any relation.
They've classified anything outside of the movies and the rebels TV show as being "soft cannon" which means that only the movies and the rebels TV show are the writ of the lore god. Anything else is sure why not as long as it doesn't conflict in some possible way with the movies and or rebels tv show.
A sad news after I ordered my Darth Bane trilogy Still gotta read it if I paid for it.
On December 22 2017 12:38 Zambrah wrote: Also why is noone a Darth? Is the true Sith Lord someone else, a Darth Someone?
Kind of late to introduce someone new in Episode 9 right? Especially when there is a lot of unresolved ground with Kylo to cover. My guess is the sith are absent. Snoke trained another apprentice apparently so maybe they will make an appearance.
Palpatine appears in Battlefront 2 though - so dunno what that is about or if it has any relation.
They've classified anything outside of the movies and the rebels TV show as being "soft cannon" which means that only the movies and the rebels TV show are the writ of the lore god. Anything else is sure why not as long as it doesn't conflict in some possible way with the movies and or rebels tv show.
A sad news after I ordered my Darth Bane trilogy Still gotta read it if I paid for it.
Darthbane still basically exists and concepts from the trilogy are sprinkled through rebels through the holocrone, also seeing how asoka appears as a grey jedi and flashes back to clomewars (rex and co are also in rebels). So clone wars tv series can pretty much also be considered cannon thus including the force ghost of bane meeting with yoda (which btw is fucken sick)
I harped a lot into TLJ, so for variety's sake, I copy paste my comment from another board, where I tried to list what I liked about this movie and why you should absolutely watch it at least once.
- The animations and sounds are amazing. When shit explode, it EXPLODES. When eventually lightsabers are being used, the sound they make on the surface of a certain armor is simply the best. I thought you can't top the - admittedly over the top - lightsaber effects showed in the Prequels, but yes, you can. There's also that one scene in the movie... yes, THAT ONE. Honestly, for me, that alone worth the admission price. It's not exactly original; if you watch action animes you surely seen it before, but to witness it in such a big franchise backed up with such a big budget... whew! Most of the people in my friends circle disliked the movie, but if I ask "that scene was cool though, aye?" they all say yeah, that was awesome.
- The action. I watched all (new) Star Trek movies in hopes of getting this feeling, but only managed to pull it off here and there. A Star Trek movie has like 2 big budget action scenes which are great, and the rest are meh. In TLJ (though it could be said about TFA as well) you are constantly treated with dosage of high-quality action scenes. Yes, it figures that the most meaningless subplot of this movie has the worst action scene as well, but - going back to my earlier point - even that has some great sound effects as the glasses shatter. Yeah, don't tell me I'm hard to please Break some glasses and tables and I'm entertained.
- Not just X-Wings! I am still not happy with the spacecraft quality of both the Resistance and the First Order, because compared to RotJ and Rogue One there's a lot of space (heh-heh) to improve, but this time we get different spaceships as well for the Resistance, so I'm happy. I'm still unsure if they were modified A-Wings though or something else. The bomber looked kinda lame, but meh, I take it.
- Kylo's lightsaber form. So, I consider myself an SW fan, but not the "I read all the EU, have all the posters and know all the lightsaber forms"-kind. I know there are different forms and they go reaaaallly deep about someone's personality or role, but TFA established Kylo as a raw "I don't give a fuck" fighter and the very, very few things TLJ actually followed instead of retconned was this. And even improved upon it! The way Kylo swings and uses his lightsaber is a thing of beauty, and to me, it represents the new era of Star Wars. A claymore saber being swung around by a madman, yet it's far from being mindless.
- Kylo and Rey's relationship is the single best thing this movie gives us story-wise, and it's biggest fault is that it eventually comes to an abrupt end. But it is actually a bold way to try to herd together the main protagonist with the main antagonist. It is refreshing to see enemies finding comfort in each other, while still radiating some distrust or even despise to one another. Those moments in the movie really feel like two human beings are interacting.
- If I were to make a good and a bad list about TLJ, both list would have simply this: "Luke". There are many things wrong with Luke and how they handled it, but at the same time, they got some things quite right. As the dust settles, I think my favorite scene in the movie is actually with Luke, when he goes crazy and is being taught an important, slice-of-life lesson from someone. I think many people are missing that scene, and treating it as a good or bad cameo. It was much more than that - for me at least.
- DJ (I never even knew that's his name) is great. Everything he represents is great. But as I said, the movie was too afraid to go into the "not everything is black and white" direction, and only dealt with it on the surface. Still, that one scene where he talks about the sad reality of war could be expanded upon in episode IX. But you see, this is where different directors really suck. Rian didn't give a shit about what J.J. wrote and it will probably be vice versa, and this scene will be forgotten. Anyway, that scenes how to show politics in an interesting way, unlike in the Prequels.
- Rose's character. Now hold up, back up with the pitchforks! Yes, the way they wrote her story and the arc she was in was disgustingly bad. Yes, during her "LOVE CONQUERS EVERYTHING, YIPPEEEEEEEE" I could break open a coconut on her head. But hear me out! Under all the bullshit she was written into, she's actually a very likeable character. That scene when she throws in her memento as payment without any hesitation is A+ my friends. And this is what grinds my gears. The movie can be so dull and Disney-like that you'd expect her to give a 5 minute long monologue about the importance of that necklace and her family, but nope. She behaves like an adult. It's war and they are dealing with a scum.
- The comedy. We've discussed the misplaced bits a ton. Yes, they are murdering the very little integrity of what this story even has, but some of them I think are actually great and well-placed comic relief. The aboriginals on the island or the Chewie cooking scenes are simply great. Basically when the movie did not try to be funny during scenes where people were burning alive, it wasn't all that bad.
- Luke in the final battle. Again, many things are off with Luke, but that scene is controversial at most. There is nothing bad with controversial; I like controversial. It's just that people forget that absolute shit and controversial are not synonyms when we have these pointless debates.
- Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.
- Poe. The single character who actually learned a lot in this episode. Kylo was kinda brute-forced and since the writer's couldn't keep Rey up with her, he suffered some as well. But Poe was great. I think he was believable, and by the end of the movie, I would not even mind a spin-off movie with him being the main character. It's sad that when he could have confronted Holdo and voice all of our frustration, he was silenced by the writers, *cough*, i mean Leia, and by the time he woke up it was too late. Anyway, he is a breath of fresh air among all the characters who talk big but do nothing. He had his hero moments, he had his fuckups, he was... human. I can relate to humans, don't know about you.
Snoke turning out to be Darth Plagueis would be the funniest slapfight between directors ever.
On December 22 2017 17:56 Volband wrote: - Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.
On December 22 2017 17:56 Volband wrote: - Leia and her power. Yes, by the end it was a glaring plot hole, but when i first saw the movie I was happy with that Superman scene. I thought "fuck yeah, this is going to be some awesome Skywalker action!!" I like heroines in general, so I nodded with acceptance during that scene, because I believe she deserved that recognition. Again, a controversial scene but I refuse to call it bad. It's only bad in hindsight, when she forgets she is actually Gandalf.
How is this a plot hole?
If you can shield yourself in space and then levitate back to your ship, then you have some immense Force powers. Which you will never ever use again in the movie, despite being in numerous dire situations. You will never even ATTEMPT to do something and then maybe fail.
They set Leia up as some sort of demi-god, but completely forgot about it. Maybe glaring inconsistency would be a better description, but it is so mind-boggling and powerful that I consider it an actual plot-hole.
edit: for example, the way Snoke died is just simply stupid. They set him up as this all-powerful Sith lord, who can read minds ffs, and then dies a comical death. It is extremely stupid BUT the movie did try to shove down an explanation on our throat. Which was that Snoke got so riled up that he got careless, while Kylo moved his lightsaber the same way he did Luke's. Again, makes you wonder how such an idiot can be a Sith Lord (remember: when Vader betrayed Luke, he hadn't shown any sign of vulnerability before, it was a complete surprise to him), but at least they tried.
I think he is spot on with this. (the general message, i disagree about details like the fighting scene) But yeah it's a star wars movie, they all are kinda meh in the bigger picture of filmmaking.
"realistic expectations" when the fucking movie is much worse than the one before it, lol. Why do many arguments for TLJ boils down to "so you thought this would be the best movie ever made, eh?" Jesus, no one did, so stop forcing this narrative.
And his condescending tone about Star Wars is sooooo forced and edgy that I hope he can move from all the self-knit sweaters.
If you guys don't want to watch the video, here's a summary: "oh myyyy gooood, star waaaaars? is that a franchiiiseeee??? oh yeaaaaaah, i think I know those movies, hehe. Not sure, pretty mediocreeeeee if you ask meeeeee. I mean reaaaalllyyy, what's the big deaaaaal? Nooothiiiiing. Btw I'm vegaaaan guysssss, hehe. Let's not give a shit about star wars like I dooooo, hehe. Be cooool as meeeeee, I meaaan come ooooon!"
Deep cutting stuff right there. If you actually want to watch a credible review that doesn't pan TLJ then watch Cinemassacre's. James Rolfe is someone who actually likes the franchise and talks pretty laidbackly with his pal about the movie. No forced shit like this one.
edit: though apparently the same scene gave both of us cancer, so I guess there is some stuff I can resonate with in his review.
It's not a real review, that's simply the style of this channel. His "best movie of year X" videos are pretty good, other than that it's mainly "quickies" to give some thoughts or videos where he makes fun of bad movies. Still think he is 100% right, no star wars movie is great, this one isn't either. People have unrealistic expectations, nostalgia towards the OT and every new star wars movie needs to live up to childhood memories. Well that's not gonna happen. Some people should actually rewatch the older movies without the rose-tinted glasses to get some perspective
Most of the movie's flaws can be pointed out by only watching 7 and 8. Every SW movie required some suspension of disbelief, that's not the problem here.
The problem is that 8 failed to live up to any reasonable expectation. Did it turn the entire franchise on its head? No. Fair enough. Did it pick up the story from 7 and expanded upon its foundations? No. Well, damn. Did it set up the scene for some episode 9 action? No. Oh...
This movie did nothing but provide some entertaining action sequences in its runtime. That wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't part of a trilogy. Watching a trilogy or a TV series sets you up for reasonable expectations. There's a story, there are characters and you would like to see these progressing without dropping in quality. Rian Johnson did not care about any of this at all; he treated TLJ like a one-off, like his entry to the SW universe. And he already succeeded: Disney gave him another trilogy, boom, he cashed in. But at what cost?
Nostalgia or not, the Prequels, the OT and TFA had a consistent writing and a fluent story. It had its mystery, it had its fun, it had its "that should not be possible" moments, but it was a well-oiled machine. TLJ is entirely different and openly opposes TFA; it's basically a dick-measurement contest between J.J. and Rian, but Rian had to know that being the second in line, he had a story to follow and should not have let his ego get the better off him.
Call TFA as basic as you want, but J.J. did an amazing job passing down the canvas with plenty of room to paint on. Rian burned it for absolutely no good reason, other than to jerk himself off to comments like "RIAN JOHNSON IS SO BRAVE, OMG!!!" It's not bravery, it's stubborn defiance.
It's funny that people always say "did it set up anything for next episode" By that standard ESB didn't really either, the only thing would be Han needing help actually. ESB did so little otherwise that ROTJ actually had to bring back a deathstar to have any stakes at the bigger picture.
Everything else you wrote is just exaggerated to make a point. I disagree with everything basically (to that level) What you also completely fail to address is that a movie is more than just lore. It's about acting, cinematography, music, scene composition, set design, dialogue, character depth, and a million other things which make a movie a movie.
What i am saying is that Star Wars never produced great movies and people only care about a very specific feeling they had with the OT, something which is not reproducible. They completely neglect the obvious flaws in the OT while nitpicking the new movies to death even though quality wise there is hardly any difference. They do different stuff well/badly (to some extent) but the overall quality is always kinda the same.
As i said a few pages ago, i just recently rewatched ESB to get a new perspective and it was way worse than in my memories. That's the movie everyone says is a masterpiece? It's really not, it might be a classic and iconic for pushing scifi blockbusters in the 80s but after rewatching it i am not sure why it's on that pedestal.
On December 22 2017 22:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's funny that people always say "did it set up anything for next episode" By that standard ESB didn't really either, the only thing would be Han needing help actually. ESB did so little otherwise that ROTJ actually had to bring back a deathstar to have any stakes at the bigger picture.
We've been through this. "Who will stop the unstoppable Vader and his even more powerful master? How will the Rebels pull it off?" Compare it to TLJ's "which kid is going to kill the other one in episode IX?" If it's the same for you, then I'm really not sure what to tell you.
On December 22 2017 22:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: character depth
Now this is great. You always try to defend TLJ against partially made up arguments (my least favorite episode in the OT is ESB, so there's that), but let's see this one now.
How did Rey transition from TFA into TLJ and what do you feel about her character's depth at the end of TLJ? Keep in mind, we are talking about the protagonist of this trilogy, The Last (non-Jedi) Jedi. Feel free to compare with Luke at the end of ESb and/or with Anakin at the end of AotC, but it's up to you if you want to bring them in. I wouldn't if I were you, because even losing a hand has more impact on one's character depth than everything that happened with Rey in TLJ.
Losing a hand does nothing for character depth if it's not developed. Losing a hand changed Jaime in GoT. For Luke it didn't do anythign in ESB and in ROTJ it was merely a "oh hey i am kinda like vader because i have a robotic hand". (iirc i still would need to rewatch that one, i don't really want to because ROTJ is the worst of the OT and i already had my oh shit moment with ESB)
Luke in ANH and ESB doesn't really have more depth than Rey. These movies have main characters with almost no personality besides "being good" so almost anyone can identify with it.
We've been through this. "Who will stop the unstoppable Vader and his even more powerful master? How will the Rebels pull it off?" Compare it to TLJ's "which kid is going to kill the other one in episode IX?" If it's the same for you, then I'm really not sure what to tell you.
How will the resistance stop the FO now that they lost so many men. What will happen to the FO now that Kylo is the new leader. What will happen to the relationship between Kylo and Rey after they have built affection for each other.
Also the things you actually mentioned for ESB were already present in ANH, without ESB it would be exactly the same.
Same sentiments. I don't know why people consider it as a bad movie just because there are 2 min comedy lines in total, or a few tacky scenes. One of the complaints I usually see is Snoke's death, so people want the bad guy fights the good guy at the end of the trilogy. like the OT or lotr or any other disney / super hero / fantasy movie? ooooh so original and exciting. /s
But ESB at least did not erase what ANH set up. We are left off with less after TLJ than where we were after TFA. That surely is some middle-episode.
And losing a hand means that just because you are a prodigy and have a shiny lightsaber, you can still be fucked up for good. That is a rather important lesson; one that our precious"I Do Whatever I Want Because Life Is Pink" Rey might find useful.
- Luke's mentor has sacrificed himself for him. Something like that happened at the end of TLJ, but let's not compare Qui-Gon's or Obi-Wan's death to two scenes (the Force projection fighting and Luke's disappearance) which Rey did not even witnessed herself - also, she was safe on the Falcon; it was the others Luke had saved. - Luke had lessons with Yoda, another Jedi Master with a rather different approach and perspective than Obi-Wan's. Watch the Yoda-Luke training in ESB and compare it to the travesty that is the Rey-Luke training in TLJ. Yoda was actually teaching the young Skywalker and wasn't just some depressed hobo ranting about his mid-life crisis. - Luke learned that his opponent, the one who murdered his family and Obi-Wan was actually his father. That's some serious conflict right there: you want to hate him, but Luke is too pure not to love him. In comparison, Rey learned that her parents were assholes. Damn! What's next? Someone tells her that boys only want sex? - Luke was a prodigy, just like Rey or Anakin, but like his father, he wasn't afraid to put his hands in dirt. He wasn't just some honorary Rebel who saved the day with his lightsaber duels. No, he flew the X-wing, he flew those winter-shuttles, he took down an AT-AT in a rather unconventional way, and he - quite literally - managed to survive in the cruelest of conditions.
Luke was extremely likeable and he was a people person, not some royalty. He considered himself no more and no less than any Rebel you could see running around in the fights. Is he a fantasy hero? Sure he is, but a rather well-written one.
Saying things like Rey is just the same only shows how out of touch you are with the plot. And it's not some "super fandom" shit, like ranting to you about his adventures in the EU or whatnot - who the hell cares about that. These all happened on the main screen. In TFA, Rey was written similarly; a very kind, talented but practical person. But we never seen her interact with the Resistance, we never seen her having to work for anything in TLJ (maybe for Luke's favor, but what good it did to her?), and things are never going badly for her. NEVER. She surrenders herself --> Snoke dies --> his ship dies, but aww, Kylo is still alive - though most likely she could have executed him if she wanted to -, what a bummer.
But apparently she is the last Jedi now. Sure, why not? I hope ep. IX starts with her already being the strongest Jedi Master who ever existed without any explanation.
On December 22 2017 22:59 shin_toss wrote: Same sentiments. I don't know why people consider it as a bad movie just because there are 2 min comedy lines in total, or a few tacky scenes. One of the complaints I usually see is Snoke's death, so people want the bad guy fights the good guy at the end of the trilogy. like the OT or lotr or any other disney / super hero / fantasy movie? ooooh so original and exciting. /s
You are right. Not having any tension whatsoever is so much better and avant garde. Too bad Sauron wasn't killed in The Two Towers, I bet the last book would have been an awesome tale of people wandering around aimlessly.
Give Rian his Oscar already! Sheesh.
edit: we need a 7 minute video to explain why a stupid scene in the movie actually makes sense, but when we complain about basic plot inconsistencies then you scream "SMH HARDCORE SW FANS CAN'T BE PLEASED!!". Cool.
In the original trilogy I had no pre-existing attachment to Kenobi. My focus isn't on how and why did he become a hermit. Luke on the other hand was the hero of that trilogy, so I have a much more rooted interest in how he went from hero who redeemed his Sith Lord father, to jaded old man hermit who refuses to get involved now. Snoke's directly responsible for this by turning Kylo, so I care more about Snoke than I did the Emperor thru the first 2 movies.
I am not focused on how did Vader fall to the dark side because I don't even know Vader is Luke's father until much later and the film doesn't make his fall a central theme of the first two movies. Kylo was Luke's student and Han and Leia's kid, and they made his fall to the dark side a core plot line for both movies with the multiple flash backs and discussions about it. Based on the flashback's that Kylo wasn't much younger than he is now when he fell. The Emperor turned Vader before Luke was even born.
How Vader fell to the dark side is barely mentioned in the original trilogy. He was an evil guy and why he was evil wasn't something they tried to explore, so there was less reason to question it. The idea that he could even have good in him at all wasn't a consideration until Return of the Jedi. Kylo being Ben Solo and his corruption on the other hand is a key story line for both movies, which increases Snoke's importance in how that happened.
They have made Kylo's fall and the idea that he still has some good in him a central part of Luke, Han, Leia and Rey's storyline. That creates much more interest in Snoke's role in the fall than I had in the Emperor during the original trilogy. It's more comparable to Palpatine's role in the prequels with Anakin.
Snoke was directly responsible for the state of the galaxy and breaking Luke's spirit by turning Kylo, but he was treated as if he was less important than Jabba the Hutt.
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
On December 23 2017 00:03 Velr wrote: The problem with this movies humour is this:
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
and this is the only u could think from a 2 hours movie?
Finn is a side-kick character, who they turned into comedy relief, then they gave him a side-kick character in Rose who is also comedy relief, and teamed them with comedy relief BB8. Then they gave them their own story line that ended up at the same spot they would have been in if they had never bothered to try.
While having the good guys far fetched plan fail could be a good idea, it needs to have some negative consequences or the failure doesn't really matter. It would also help if it was not filled with unlikely events going their way that match the most far fetched plan that has succeeded in other movies.
On December 23 2017 00:03 Velr wrote: The problem with this movies humour is this:
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
and this is the only u could think from a 2 hours movie?
You make this assumption? A: Because you have nothing to say. B: Because your buthurt and have nothing to say.
I guess its B.
Anyone wanna remind me why exactly Fin being badly hurt in TFA is a total non factor in TLJ? Ah, i forgot, its because this movie shits on everything TFA set up.
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote: I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her?
The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
I think it's a reference to Kylo relation to killing the past and cut all connection with his past, I think it told Rey that she didn't own anything to her parents, to Luke, the Jedi or the resistance, she has no destiny and can do whatever she want, she is the only one that matters. It's what Kylo want, to be free of his past, of his ancestry (Snoke, Luke, Han, the Jedi....) and to create his own destiny as this master of the universe, to rule all alone like the emperor or Snoke. But Kylo isn't able to do that because he never manage to truly kill his past or get rid of Rey.
Or maybe it was just to tell Rey that her parent were nobody and the dark side was just fucking around IDK.
Thanks for all the replies, i don't think there is a clear-cut answer. I would like to take your view on it but the whole "kylo telling her" was AFTER she went to the well, because when she was connected to him through snoke's force, he was splashed with water. which was shown almost repeatedly thereafter, every time they connected and had a conversation. she was only able to splash kylo with water because the well, abyss, ended up being a geyser. this was also the scene where luke catches her and stops them from making physical contact in the force.
Luke also mentions to her that she attempted to go in (i can't recall exactly when this happened if it was before or after) and he makes a huge scene about how she didn't even hesitate. which is such a build up for someone like luke to say, as it implies he was aware of the well, approaching it, what it represents, etc...as he's been on that island for so long....
I do get where people are going with this, but it seemed like such a buildup to a scene that was supposed to mean more...going to the extent of showing her "snapping fingers" and then saying to herself THERE IS AN END TO THIS. the fact they had to use CGI (as far as i'm aware) to make that scene. but maybe i am reading too much into it, but i'm guessing this can be added to the bucketlist of those disappointed in it lol...
trying to find meaning in the reverse just doesn't make sense....a build up, to confronting a dark abyss even luke wouldn't dare confront only for it to go "HEY GUESS WHAT? YOUR NOT SPECIAL!" is just lul...and then have remants of that experience physically affect others through the force by splashing kylo...it has to mean something of substance...
On December 22 2017 20:14 Volband wrote: If you can shield yourself in space and then levitate back to your ship, then you have some immense Force powers. Which you will never ever use again in the movie, despite being in numerous dire situations. You will never even ATTEMPT to do something and then maybe fail.
They set Leia up as some sort of demi-god, but completely forgot about it. Maybe glaring inconsistency would be a better description, but it is so mind-boggling and powerful that I consider it an actual plot-hole.
edit: for example, the way Snoke died is just simply stupid. They set him up as this all-powerful Sith lord, who can read minds ffs, and then dies a comical death. It is extremely stupid BUT the movie did try to shove down an explanation on our throat. Which was that Snoke got so riled up that he got careless, while Kylo moved his lightsaber the same way he did Luke's. Again, makes you wonder how such an idiot can be a Sith Lord (remember: when Vader betrayed Luke, he hadn't shown any sign of vulnerability before, it was a complete surprise to him), but at least they tried.
So she was supposed to use her amazing force powers of pulling herself forward in a vacuum ... for what exactly?
The movie says Leia prepares herself for the explosion as the proton torpedo destroys her part of the deck. She moves back to the ship, physically and likely mentally exhausted. The rest of the movie she spends somewhat less energetic, but we're to draw a conclusion that she'd be able to stop a large armada or a large ground army? Maybe the Resistance was supposed to create another vacuum down on the planet, and Leia would have been able to pull herself next to the AT-ATs.
Another reading is that it's Rian Johnson's and the crew's way of saying good bye, especially the way the scene is shot. We know that Carrie Fisher is dead, but in our and their minds her legacy lives on. She's stronger than what the world throws at her, and she lives on in our memories.
As for Snoke, what do you think the movie is saying by killing him off? A movie that's essentially about leaving behind one's past and embracing the future. A movie that's about how our optimism in the 60s and 70s didn't lead to a better future, but eventually made things worse. A movie that's about how we need new heroes and fresh hope in order to believe that the world is still worth saving.
On December 22 2017 21:50 Volband wrote: Nostalgia or not, the Prequels, the OT and TFA had a consistent writing and a fluent story. It had its mystery, it had its fun, it had its "that should not be possible" moments, but it was a well-oiled machine. TLJ is entirely different and openly opposes TFA; it's basically a dick-measurement contest between J.J. and Rian, but Rian had to know that being the second in line, he had a story to follow and should not have let his ego get the better off him.
Call TFA as basic as you want, but J.J. did an amazing job passing down the canvas with plenty of room to paint on. Rian burned it for absolutely no good reason, other than to jerk himself off to comments like "RIAN JOHNSON IS SO BRAVE, OMG!!!" It's not bravery, it's stubborn defiance.
The original trilogy retconned much of the first film in the subsequent two films.
The movie is saying that we've seen this story before, there's no need to make another three movies that ape the original trilogy. It's been 40 years. It's time to move on. While we shouldn't forget the past, there's no point re-living it. The world has changed, why can't Star Wars?
That would have been great, but the first film DID ape the original trilogy. Then the second film said, what looked like it was important in the first film didn't really matter, while at the same time not really giving a compelling new story line to look forward to in the final film.
With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Luke died, but wasn't helping anyway, Snoke died and was responsible for all of the New Order's success. That's a pretty great trade for the good guys.
Going into this movie I at least had a feeling that they needed EVERYONE to play their part to defeat Snoke (especially since they have so few rebels left). Instead he died to a light saber on/off switch.
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
On December 23 2017 00:03 Velr wrote: The problem with this movies humour is this:
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
and this is the only u could think from a 2 hours movie?
Brave people of the resistance being blown to pieces (tension) BB-8 flying over screetching, losing its head then assembling himself again. (no tension)
Rey and Kylo being connected again (tension) Kylo has no shirts on (no tension) Rey calls him something bad while bursting out in tears(tension)
Finn and Rose have to find a way out of the prison (tension) BB-8 bound and gagged 4 prison guards all alone (no tension)
On December 22 2017 20:14 Volband wrote: If you can shield yourself in space and then levitate back to your ship, then you have some immense Force powers. Which you will never ever use again in the movie, despite being in numerous dire situations. You will never even ATTEMPT to do something and then maybe fail.
They set Leia up as some sort of demi-god, but completely forgot about it. Maybe glaring inconsistency would be a better description, but it is so mind-boggling and powerful that I consider it an actual plot-hole.
edit: for example, the way Snoke died is just simply stupid. They set him up as this all-powerful Sith lord, who can read minds ffs, and then dies a comical death. It is extremely stupid BUT the movie did try to shove down an explanation on our throat. Which was that Snoke got so riled up that he got careless, while Kylo moved his lightsaber the same way he did Luke's. Again, makes you wonder how such an idiot can be a Sith Lord (remember: when Vader betrayed Luke, he hadn't shown any sign of vulnerability before, it was a complete surprise to him), but at least they tried.
So she was supposed to use her amazing force powers of pulling herself forward in a vacuum ... for what exactly?
Why would you assume that's her only power? It seems a tad bit harder to pull off than "to fly rocks". In fact, one of the most powerful Force usage we've seen in the movies. Sure,Luke outdone her in the end, but still.
Oh man this movie was even worse than TFA. Plotholes as plentyful as a swiss cheese, bad jokes, boring and pointless story, wasted characters. What where they thinking??
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
There was barely a hint that he was even injured the whole fight. In fact he starts punching his wound to show how little effect it was having on him. Then he proceeded to get defeated by an untrained Rey. It was like if Luke had stepped in and stopping Vader from killing Kenobi by beating him in the first movie and then trying to make Vader a credible threat in the following movies. That's hard to do.
If Kylo had spent this movie training with Snoke in a reverse Yoda type situation, and then killed Snoke maybe it could have worked. As it stands, I feel the rebels are in a better situation now with Snoke dead than they were at the start of the movie. They only had ~400 members near the start of the movie, which is a comically small number to over throw a galactic empire. They lost a portion of that 400 and the New Order lost the leader that made their rise to power possible in the first place.
Now they are set up for a situation where logistically it's hard to write a plausible way for the good guys to win, but the bad guys are so incompetent and the heroes so over powering you know that is what will ultimately happen.
Honestly I don't know what the big deal is with Rey being untrained and force sensitive. Sith true bloods on Korriban for example were all very force sensitive and could use it without being trained or having a clue why they could do it, before the Jedi exiles arrived and established the Old Sith Empire*. I know it's no longer canon and belongs to Star Wars legends, but it's still relevant when it comes to stuff like how powerful untrained force users can actually be, without having a proper understanding why. Even little Anakin used the force unknowingly in Episode I or how else would you explain his piloting skills. (*edit: Correction Naga Sadow's arc started later, it's been a while since I've read the golden age comics )
You are right. Not having any tension whatsoever is so much better and avant garde. Too bad Sauron wasn't killed in The Two Towers, I bet the last book would have been an awesome tale of people wandering around aimlessly.
You did not get the point. The point is a villain is killed (assuming he is really dead) halfway the 2nd part of the trilogy means there is a much more bigger villain in the series who is obviously Kylo Ren. Snoke was not built up as the main antagonist like they did with Sauron. Kylo Ren is.
your past can't define you any more than you let it; to truly progress and become stronger you must let old hang-ups go so you can go into your future free of the shackles that the past has lain on you.
it's stated explicitly and implicitly throughout the film
people just wanted another Empire Strikes Back so they can round out what started with The Force Awakens: another rehash, another original trilogy.
it's why studios and large companies stick routinely to formula, as demonstrated by this thread and elsewhere, people say they want something different, when all they really want is more of the same.
if you wanted another original trilogy, go watch the original trilogy.
they're still great movies, and timeless. but at the time that the very first star wars was released by lucas, it broke ground because it dared to use fantasy in a time when films only stayed rooted firmly in grim crime stories and apocalyptic nightmares. it dared to use an orchestra in the time of rock and roll.
the empire strikes back was critically received yet received mixed feelings from the general public because Irvin Kushner broke the simplicity and the timeless coming of age story that the original stayed firmly rooted in.
he created tension, he introduced romance, he let the scrappy rebellion receive the full wrath of vaders fist.
that was what made Empire such a great film.
to make another Empire so many decades later would be a real disgrace to what made the original films brilliant in the first place
While I didn't like the Super-Leia scene mainly for the fact that it felt disconnected and without purpose, in reality you don't need to shield yourself from outer space, so she "only" needed to pull herself to the ship. Which, considering that everyone is pulling lightsabers to them and pushing people away all the time, doesn't sound like that big of a big deal to me. I found Rey's final lifting worse tbh.
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
There was barely a hint that he was even injured the whole fight. In fact he starts punching his wound to show how little effect it was having on him. Then he proceeded to get defeated by an untrained Rey. It was like if Luke had stepped in and stopping Vader from killing Kenobi by beating him in the first movie and then trying to make Vader a credible threat in the following movies. That's hard to do.
If Kylo had spent this movie training with Snoke in a reverse Yoda type situation, and then killed Snoke maybe it could have worked. As it stands, I feel the rebels are in a better situation now with Snoke dead than they were at the start of the movie. They only had ~400 members near the start of the movie, which is a comically small number to over throw a galactic empire. They lost a portion of that 400 and the New Order lost the leader that made their rise to power possible in the first place.
Now they are set up for a situation where logistically it's hard to write a plausible way for the good guys to win, but the bad guys are so incompetent and the heroes so over powering you know that is what will ultimately happen.
You don't see that the one guy is wounded when he's walking slowly/stumbling for 9/10th of the fight with an exhausted look on his face when every other fight has twirling like crazy in it? Also Kylo looses at the end in a strength contest (they both grab each other's hand and Kylo looses on strength) and beat Rey with ease earlier in the same movie.
Compare that fight to the one he has against the knights of Ren.
He's punching the wound to remind the audience that he's wounded.
I'm not arguing that Rey's growth is miraculous and a bit too crass for my taste, but especially in the EU you had lots of ppl who did crazier stuff. And then there's Anakin who is able to pilot at a speed that no other human being can before he hits puberty because he sees part of the future and can react to it. With exactly zero understanding what the force is.
I agree though that I probably would have preferred a timeskip for Kylo that shows that he's been trained further. I think he comes off as stronger than Rey in TLJ, but not to the point where it's unimaginable that Rey beats him. Especially considering that Rey seems to grow faster.
But Kylo is basically the second main character/antagonist Anakin anyways.
On December 23 2017 06:35 CHEONSOYUN wrote: the theme of the movie is this:
your past can't define you any more than you let it; to truly progress and become stronger you must let old hang-ups go so you can go into your future free of the shackles that the past has lain on you.
it's stated explicitly and implicitly throughout the film
people just wanted another Empire Strikes Back so they can round out what started with The Force Awakens: another rehash, another original trilogy.
it's why studios and large companies stick routinely to formula, as demonstrated by this thread and elsewhere, people say they want something different, when all they really want is more of the same.
But this can't be true. My favourite part was when kylo held out his hand to ray to let the past die and to join him in an empire based on balance. No sith no jedi no empire no rebellion nothing of the past. He reveals that she means nothing to the galaxy but she means something to him. He asks her to not let the past define her and to join him, please.
She responds by championing the jedi and the rebellion embracing the past and what other people define her as. She acepts the shackles of the past and.procedes to continue everything before her.
Its the opposite of being brave or changing anything. It turns yet another wonderful premise into yet another gotcha moment.
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
There was barely a hint that he was even injured the whole fight. In fact he starts punching his wound to show how little effect it was having on him. Then he proceeded to get defeated by an untrained Rey. It was like if Luke had stepped in and stopping Vader from killing Kenobi by beating him in the first movie and then trying to make Vader a credible threat in the following movies. That's hard to do.
If Kylo had spent this movie training with Snoke in a reverse Yoda type situation, and then killed Snoke maybe it could have worked. As it stands, I feel the rebels are in a better situation now with Snoke dead than they were at the start of the movie. They only had ~400 members near the start of the movie, which is a comically small number to over throw a galactic empire. They lost a portion of that 400 and the New Order lost the leader that made their rise to power possible in the first place.
Now they are set up for a situation where logistically it's hard to write a plausible way for the good guys to win, but the bad guys are so incompetent and the heroes so over powering you know that is what will ultimately happen.
Just watch that scene with Fin fithing Kylo.. There is nothing even close in the new movie.TFA isn't great by any means, but it did the important stuff right. TLJ is just a failure.
On December 23 2017 04:57 thePunGun wrote: Honestly I don't know what the big deal is with Rey being untrained and force sensitive. Sith true bloods on Korriban for example were all very force sensitive and could use it without being trained or having a clue why they could do it, before the Jedi exiles arrived and established the Old Sith Empire*. I know it's no longer canon and belongs to Star Wars legends, but it's still relevant when it comes to stuff like how powerful untrained force users can actually be, without having a proper understanding why. Even little Anakin used the force unknowingly in Episode I or how else would you explain his piloting skills. (*edit: Correction Naga Sadow's arc started later, it's been a while since I've read the golden age comics )
The idea that a non-trained force user could defeat a trained one isn't the main problem. The problem is making Kylo the biggest threat left when he has already been defeated by Rey once with no training on her part. You don't have to wonder if Rey can beat Kylo, when she has already done it once.
You are right. Not having any tension whatsoever is so much better and avant garde. Too bad Sauron wasn't killed in The Two Towers, I bet the last book would have been an awesome tale of people wandering around aimlessly.
You did not get the point. The point is a villain is killed (assuming he is really dead) halfway the 2nd part of the trilogy means there is a much more bigger villain in the series who is obviously Kylo Ren. Snoke was not built up as the main antagonist like they did with Sauron. Kylo Ren is.
Snoke in the first movie certainly was set up as the villain behind everything that had gone wrong for the good guys since the original trilogy. He lead the conquest of the First Order and he broke Luke Skywalker by turning Kylo. He manipulated Kylo to kill Han Solo. If there was no Snoke, there would be no Kylo.
It's just odd to have Kylo's fall completely change Luke's personality and outlook on life and being a Jedi, and be such a huge plot focus for Kylo and Rey's story line as well, yet completely ignore why Kylo had so much darkness in him in the first place or Snoke's role in corrupting him.
Now the new "main villain" has already been defeated by Rey once. What's the big deal if she beats him again? It's pretty much expected.
i hope i don't get a warning for this or a ban, as i'm 100% serious in what i'm about to say with no intent on being malicious or BM. so i ask that further conversation on this matter be entirely mature and respectful as much as possible. i will do my best to explain my rationale while attempting to not be rude, but i can't promise so if i am to be as clear as possible.
I saw a snippet of an interview with Mark Hamil where he talks about the screen play writing and how he disagrees with the way he was forced to portray Luke. As the script was being written he recalls and says look this isn't the way the "old Luke" of my generation would behave, speaking to the screen writer at the time (I believe it was ryan?). His words were "Jedi's simply don't give up, they regroup. BUT to fit the needs of the movie i realized, this isn't my generation, this is Jedi of THEIR generation. so don't quote me on that interview exactly, as i recalled the back and fourth to the best of my ability. Now, i'll go onto my main point.
From this I realized, how many small influences that perhaps wouldn't otherwise serve in the original series, be forced into this one. My friend's father and I kept discussing the Leia scene as many here are, and there is simply no logical conclusion to it. Leia didn't die prior to the ending, she died after the movie was completed and therefore her death could not have been foretold or skew the plot in anyway. Was there any reason for her to have a show of power there? and now how does that tie to mark Hamil's point? our current generation is a feminist generation. Female protagonist are in fact a very real thing...a show of power from a woman who is weakened from a physical force which otherwise obliterates men, would serve to show women in a strong light. Now i know i stated that quite, bluntly, and i reiterate, it was not malicious and this is simply for discussion. but when put in this context, the entirety of the series and the influences to things we otherwise deem illogical to the original series, makes sense. especially if we use it through the context of Mark Hamil's words of "This MOVIE is for THIS GENERATION.
This generation is currently at a time where we are praising LGBTQ, Feminism, and strong females who come out with sexual accusations. Along with females who should not be "body shamed" Rey, Finn, and the majority of the other cast are quite attractive and physically fit, as actors. Even Kylo Ren put on an enormous amount of muscle mass to then show his gains. BUT the actor who played the Asian female, does not fit those stereotypes.It hits both the agendas of 1. racial inclusion, 2. non tolerance of female body shaming and extreme standards in acting, along with 3. a strong and brave female doesn't have to have looks or etc, etc, etc. the list could go on, this is Hollywood or "Disneywood" and Disney is by far the one company who imo, tries to conform to political correctness when and how it can.
Remember this is hollywood, it's agenda is to appease the audience with relatable characters in it's current generation BEFORE it would ever conform to the roles of the script. there are a lot of things that absolutely make sense if we were to look at it through the lens of feminism and portraying a strong female. and ultimately if we see that everything we couldn't explain was to force the current generation's SOCIAL AGENDA. Hollywood is a genius at portraying these things in visual form... now i can list a few...that have come to mind if i do compile them. Note again, this is not to be malicious or to BM, but to put things into context in terms of how it would make sense if it were to stay congruent to my assertion. some of these stereotypes also furtheremore affect, me. (lol)
1. Women can drive - Especially, asian women. - The scene where finn decides to go on a suicide mission to stop the charging cannon, gets intercepted by the one girl who references her family in the past being one who raised race horses at those casinos.
The rest here i will not go further and list them out but i will list out the strong feminist roles. as i think race is an extremely touchy subject which benefits no one in detailing it here fourth.
2. Feminism - One of the first scenes was an asian woman, finn's gf's, sister, sacrificing herself despite being knocked unconscious. wakes up to show how tough and unemotional she is, to fight in war. these acts are generally shown to portray soldiers mostly men in movies, a recent example is Captain America's story how he jumps on a bomb. these roles in the past generally reserved for men, hamil's words fit perfectly here how this role is now about our generation.
- Leia being knocked unconscious, she was saved in the past, but now despite being blown off a ship, "no longer requires saving" a princess is strong enough to hold her own. also being shown to be extremely logical despite poe's emotional decision making by not reprimanding him for his mutiny. condoning both the decisions of the purple haired commander along with poe's actions. - The purple haired woman who, sacrificed herself for the greater good of others, portrays equality and strength. - almost all of Rey's actions
I see some points where I can imagine the popularity of feminism in Hollywood atm influencing the movie (namely how the two top ranking rebellion characters with dialogue are female while the top brass of the empire is entirely male and the fact that females don't really struggle or fail a lot in this movie). But Luke and the rogue f.e. are chubby and most people in the movie look trained because they are part of the military. I also didn't mind the starting scene at all and liked the cruiser-jump (despite that opening some possibilities they should have kept shut), although I would have liked to see Rose f.e. struggle/despair a bit more, she isn't supposed to be a fighter.
I think the generation difference is that many successful series atm have complex characters that aren't purely black or white. Shows like Mr. Robot, GoT, HoC or BB have main-characters that are weak and often morally grey/black, same with movies like BR2049. Ofc there are still the super-hero movies, but even they aren't always purely white.
Also I found Luke's plot well executed and for the most part believable. I can see how a failure that big would break even his spirit and it explains why he's staying hidden on a small planet with basically 0 inhabitants. Him drawing his sword seems a bit unfitting for the man who converted his father, but I can see that as the "spur of the moment" thing they described it as.
I find it more surprising that nobody is talking about the animal cruelty thing, I found it unfitting despite it being a topic for me IRL. That is definitely in the movie because it's a Hollywood thing.
Watched it again. I suppose I noticed a few things I didn’t see the first time but the bottom line is that unlike with Ep 7, I wasn’t really looking forward to it and I did find it to be a grind to sit and watch it to the end. Guess that sort of settles it for me, this movie just plain failed to deliver.
Also to further note, i don't wish to simply explain the currently un-explainable by quickly jumping onto the whole racial, feminist, agenda. that is too easy, and i simply wished to show how PERHAPS in my theory, these influences can explain somethings we cannot logically deduce or otherwise cannot trace back to any previous starwars. as it does quite obviously come out of left field. But just food for thought, and i'd rather we go back to wrestling with the issue logically and only after exhausting that, use those things as probable reasoning.
On December 23 2017 15:18 Archeon wrote: Also I found Luke's plot well executed and for the most part believable. I can see how a failure that big would break even his spirit and it explains why he's staying hidden on a small planet with basically 0 inhabitants. Him drawing his sword seems a bit unfitting for the man who converted his father, but I can see that as the "spur of the moment" thing they described it as.
I find it more surprising that nobody is talking about the animal cruelty thing, I found it unfitting despite it being a topic for me IRL. That is definitely in the movie because it's a Hollywood thing.
This is a further point which i would like to discuss. Well earlier you wrote, everyone else is trained except the chubby asian girl, finn was supposed to be a pilot? (If i'm not to be mistaken) along with being a soldier. it's to be expected he could pilot an unknown rusty craft, vs someone who's not a soldier or has not had previous flight training (the asian chubby girl) capable of piloting that craft with such precision she was able to intercept him, not kill him, not kill herself (but of course hollywood writes it where she had no control over that) but I digress. My point is, Finn can pilot it, but her, she shouldn't be able to as she wasn't a trained pilot nor a soldier since those ships as far as the starwars movie goes, are war crafts / ships. they are solely for combat. furthermore the movie portrays her sister as a FIT soldier, her, not so much!
I think the animal cruelty is always there, it's to show sympathy for all the creatures, but then again hypocritical since they showed a cute little animal next to chubacca (which was damn adorable) but defeats the point of animal cruelty which is also, we breed things very cruely so that animals can be cute. i think it was more or less the point of to show disgust for the opposition. a place, built on wealth and arms-trading (selling weapons to the empire) is what they stated, would make any and all things lucrative, even animal abuse. But to a further extent you could say it's highlighting the currently acceptable "race horse gambling" which i have no knowledge of, but then again, I personally despise gambling and all forms of it.
Starts off with intense space battle and then a slow plot with Luke and ray, Leia and her crew.
The only subplot that keeps the movie going is fin and rose. And honestly it wasn't very exciting and didn't feel very starwars.
I also find the plot right now is just too focused on ray and kylo. The other characters are unique but definitely in a back seat in a dull kind of way.
Even the prequels had a sense of scale and grandness, it's why I enjoy rogue one quite a lot.
If they wanted to have a femminist message then I would think they would want to push the captian phasma storline as Gwendoline Christie is Literal strong not super pretty but still amazing actor. The movie doesn't value her enough to put the movies time into it when its already 2 and a half hours.
I mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux.
On December 23 2017 16:04 Sermokala wrote: If they wanted to have a femminist message then I would think they would want to push the captian phasma storline as Gwendoline Christie is Literal strong not super pretty but still amazing actor. The movie doesn't value her enough to put the movies time into it when its already 2 and a half hours.
I mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux.
As i stated, it is only my own speculations, but i feel there are undoubtedly too many instances, and far too many coincidences to outright deny it's influence in it's entirety. Also to note, my main reason for saying it is to explain the things that are otherwise nonsensical, or DO NOT fall into the grand scheme of the story line. They also do not have to push that route and could entirely still portray strong feminist. Just the same way where Finn was portrayed to be a force user in Rogue 1, (In desperation he wielded Luke's saber to defend an unconscious Rey against Kylo) But if the title in this movie "The LAST JEDI" doesn't scrap that tangent, well i don't know what will. :D
On another separate note, Ocean's 8 has an all female protagonist cast, so if that isn't evidence of how powerful that influence has on hollywood, quite frankly i don't know what would suffice.
On December 23 2017 06:35 CHEONSOYUN wrote: the theme of the movie is this:
your past can't define you any more than you let it; to truly progress and become stronger you must let old hang-ups go so you can go into your future free of the shackles that the past has lain on you.
it's stated explicitly and implicitly throughout the film
people just wanted another Empire Strikes Back so they can round out what started with The Force Awakens: another rehash, another original trilogy.
it's why studios and large companies stick routinely to formula, as demonstrated by this thread and elsewhere, people say they want something different, when all they really want is more of the same.
But this can't be true. My favourite part was when kylo held out his hand to ray to let the past die and to join him in an empire based on balance. No sith no jedi no empire no rebellion nothing of the past. He reveals that she means nothing to the galaxy but she means something to him. He asks her to not let the past define her and to join him, please.
She responds by championing the jedi and the rebellion embracing the past and what other people define her as. She acepts the shackles of the past and.procedes to continue everything before her.
Its the opposite of being brave or changing anything. It turns yet another wonderful premise into yet another gotcha moment.
yes and obi wan clearly didn't understand that anakin had secured peace justice and freedom to his new empire
Snoke in the first movie certainly was set up as the villain behind everything that had gone wrong for the good guys since the original trilogy. He lead the conquest of the First Order and he broke Luke Skywalker by turning Kylo. He manipulated Kylo to kill Han Solo. If there was no Snoke, there would be no Kylo.
He was there yes. He was showed as the master of Kylo and the one who turned him. But he was not the one built up as the Main antagonist. The dude was not even in the poster. Kylo Ren is this trilogy's vader(but lamer). Even if he died Kylo was already Kylo Ren he is already in the dark side and has a plan of his own. Killing Snoke just showed that kylo ren wont take shit from anyone anymore. It shows that how matter strong you are, if u were betrayed and stabbed in the back you'll be dead. People wanted twists and something new. Rian Johnson delivered. And now some are complaining. Srlsy.. why do even people complain about the back story of Snoke. As if there are back story to Palpatine until ep.1. Has the trilogy ended yet? How sure are these people that disney wont show it on ep 9 or other from other content?. People need to calm down.
On December 23 2017 16:04 Sermokala wrote: If they wanted to have a femminist message then I would think they would want to push the captian phasma storline as Gwendoline Christie is Literal strong not super pretty but still amazing actor. The movie doesn't value her enough to put the movies time into it when its already 2 and a half hours.
I mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux.
Phasma was just a marketing tools to get people into the theatre and sell toys, I don't think JJA or RJ ever saw her as something else. Having Christie play her is part of the marketing, I would not say they didn't value her enough but more that Disney value her promotional value and it was all that matter, since everybody could have played her part.
She is ironically probably one the most well known actress in the movie outside of SW, Adam Driver and Laura Dern have had some other important role but apart from them it's almost all SW, yet she play the role of an extra.
Edit: Oh and Del Toro of course, I had forgot he was in this.
On December 23 2017 15:39 saocyn wrote: Also to further note, i don't wish to simply explain the currently un-explainable by quickly jumping onto the whole racial, feminist, agenda. that is too easy, and i simply wished to show how PERHAPS in my theory, these influences can explain somethings we cannot logically deduce or otherwise cannot trace back to any previous starwars. as it does quite obviously come out of left field. But just food for thought, and i'd rather we go back to wrestling with the issue logically and only after exhausting that, use those things as probable reasoning.
I don't really care why they added things for reasons external to the movie plot. I just care if it made for a good story or not. It doesn't bother me having strong female leads, or mostly minority heroes, or political messages if they it's done well. If those things make the story weaker, then it's because they were executed poorly. Having Leia as a strong force user could be done in a way that works. If they want her to be a strong force user, then make her use the force more. Have her train Rey instead of Luke. Having her never use the force in any capacity before or after she makes herself fly thru space is jarring. Empower her by making her a more impact leader. If she had died in space the story line wouldn't have changed in any significant way.
I don't feel any of the main characters have progressed significantly from last movie and I don't feel like any particularly new developments are set up for the next movie either. Rey vs Kylo and resistance vs First Order is what we are left with and that's what we started with.
Snoke in the first movie certainly was set up as the villain behind everything that had gone wrong for the good guys since the original trilogy. He lead the conquest of the First Order and he broke Luke Skywalker by turning Kylo. He manipulated Kylo to kill Han Solo. If there was no Snoke, there would be no Kylo.
He was there yes. He was showed as the master of Kylo and the one who turned him. But he was not the one built up as the Main antagonist. The dude was not even in the poster. Kylo Ren is this trilogy's vader(but lamer). Even if he died Kylo was already Kylo Ren he is already in the dark side and has a plan of his own. Killing Snoke just showed that kylo ren wont take shit from anyone anymore. It shows that how matter strong you are, if u were betrayed and stabbed in the back you'll be dead. People wanted twists and something new. Rian Johnson delivered. And now some are complaining. Srlsy.. why do even people complain about the back story of Snoke. As if there are back story to Palpatine until ep.1. Has the trilogy ended yet? How sure are these people that disney wont show it on ep 9 or other from other content?. People need to calm down.
The emperor didn't matter prior to the Return of the Jedi because they didn't try to make the first 2 movies about Vader and flashbacks to his fall. Note that they did decide to add a whole trilogy to cover that though, where Palpatine was clearly the main antagonist.
People complain about Snoke becoming a trivial death because he is responsible for going from a victorious rebellion at the end of Return of the Jedi, to worse off than they were at the start of A New Hope, with minimal explanation.
They made the fall to darkness of Kylo the focus of Luke's story line, and the cause of Han's death, but have decided Snoke's role in why it happened didn't matter. The first movie set him up as a powerful force that would take everyone on the top of their game to defeat. The second movie made him seem trivially insignificant for the sake of having something surprising happen. And while it was surprising, it wasn't a satisfying twist for me. If you think it was, we will just have to agree to disagree.
Adding twists isn't that hard to do if you just throw make stuff up as you go along and disregard everything that came before as if it didn't happen. Twists are great if they are set up well. Twists just for the sake of something surprising is just bad writing.
Adding twists isn't that hard to do if you just throw make stuff up as you go along and disregard everything that came before as if it didn't happen. Twists are great if they are set up well. Twists just for the sake of something surprising is just bad writing.
Yes I dont know why people right now just like twists for the sake of twists, if that is what the movies need to be enjoyable and good , then everybody "with a brain" could write excellent movies.
Maybe they should have Yoda come back and kill Kylo and Rey and become a sith lord ghost who rules the galaxy, cause you know that would be a surprise twist that nobody saw coming.
On December 24 2017 01:27 karazax wrote: Maybe they should have Yoda come back and kill Kylo and Rey and become a sith lord ghost who rules the galaxy, cause you know that would be a surprise twist that nobody saw coming.
Except some of the twists were actually set up. Kylo's backstab was prepared a lot f.e. and made sense for Kylo's way of thinking as well as his emotional state of mind. Luke doing his final deed was something they prepared for over the course of the movie as well. Sure there are things like Rey's parents where you could argue that it pisses people off, but the people in question wouldn't have progressed the story in any way and I find it a nice change of pace that the main isn't the chosen one by DNA. Also there are a bunch of asspulls in terms of force power usage, but the only new thing was something done by an old Jedi Master.
On December 23 2017 15:56 ETisME wrote: The biggest problem imo is the pacing.
Starts off with intense space battle and then a slow plot with Luke and ray, Leia and her crew.
The only subplot that keeps the movie going is fin and rose. And honestly it wasn't very exciting and didn't feel very starwars.
I also find the plot right now is just too focused on ray and kylo. The other characters are unique but definitely in a back seat in a dull kind of way.
Even the prequels had a sense of scale and grandness, it's why I enjoy rogue one quite a lot.
That's the biggest criticism I share, the pacing and joke timing are all over the place. Imho some slower talking heavy parts in the early middle could have given it all the feeling of purpose, but even on Ahch-To Rey has basically something going on 24/7 and it feels like the action never really stops. The movie still has some basic concepts/questions and gets some plot lines done, but it felt more like a typical action blockbuster than an epos.
Which is a bit of a shame, since there were many scenes I really enjoyed, but they often don't really feel that connected.
On December 24 2017 01:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not twists for the sake of it being twists though, that's just completely wrong
please expand more your idea, I have seen that you love these new movies , and like to "bash" lightly the OT, could you explain better why the twists were so well done?
I don't love the new movies, i think they are exactly what star wars always was. They do some things better, some things worse and for other things it's just preference. Pretty much every Star Wars movie i have watched (besides the prequels) would fall into 6-7 territority, so better than average/decent to good.
I am not even saying they were especially well done, but it's definitely not twists for the sake of it. The only one where this would be the case is Leia's force moment. Everything else is set up before and serves a purpose for the story. Which "a twist for the sake of it" wouldn't do.
On December 24 2017 01:27 karazax wrote: Maybe they should have Yoda come back and kill Kylo and Rey and become a sith lord ghost who rules the galaxy, cause you know that would be a surprise twist that nobody saw coming.
Lol better than any Starwars movie in the last 30 years.
I really dont get why people complain about the thing with Ray's patents.
For all we know who they were may yet be signicant one way or another - just because Kylo claimed they were insignificant nobodies does not necessarily mean they were - its just a claim.
Then again, they might just have been nobodies who abandonned her and they are not to play a part and thats just how it is - but whats so wrong with that? Why would the Force not reach out to a child whose parents werent important characters?
I think the parents hate is more salt than anything else. People theorized and feel robbed by the answer, when the question was mainly a cornerstone for Rey's development and there for suspension reasons. The argument I've read a bunch of times was literally "I'm fine if the solution was presented when they introduced the character, but don't open the question and then shut it with that answer".
Which is imo understandable, but I don't mind Rey looking for her parents and receiving the most brutal answer. Rey's denial is literally the only fault she has. I wished the revelation would have had more lasting influence in any way though. I get that Rey is the plain main and Kylo is basically the struggling main, but I think Rey could be a little less perfect on occasion. Especially since we see Kylo struggle less the more the movie develops.
I'm very conflicted about this film. They managed to pull me back in at the end because I liked the final fight sequences enough. But this is the first film I've sat through in a theatre that I was actively hating the story I was watching. I've seen incompetence in theatres and thought it was funny: Eragon and Seventh Son. But I could understand what they were doing with the story. This one felt like a mess and after resisting the growing sense that this wasn't a good story I began resenting fight sequences that otherwise I would've mindlessly enjoyed in another film- I was thrown off the ride, and I disliked that I disliked it, but I couldn't figure out how to get back on board.
The movie was interesting when it dealt with Rey, Kylo, and Luke. I hated everything about the Cruiser subplot. I'll have to rewatch it, but as far as I could tell, Finn had no story (unlike Force Awakens- cowardly deserter into rebel) and it really felt like that entire plot line was intended to put them on a treadmill until the movie completed the only story ideas they had, which was Rey and they could join them back together. Anyone read the EU? This was the Lando plotline of the Fifth Fleet series- need to include some secondary characters from the previous stories, and so make random side adventures. The cruiser subplot just insisted on stacking stupidity on stupidity until I buckled despite trying to hold off.
I hate all the Rebel commanders- Anyone know Battlestar Galactica? Give me a Helena Cain, or put Admiral Ackbar in charge to die sacrificially. (The actor for Wedge Antilles was right to decline- he'd probably be shot out of an airlock too, having done nothing signficant.) Or at least give me a Laura Roslin. That purple haired commander had zero military presence about her. I now more than ever, resent that we didn't get a proper civil war, where both sides hold territories and shipyards. It undercuts the gains that should have been made from the Original Trilogy-
I liked Rose' sister. I hated Rose. I wish their roles were reversed. I can't figure out why, but she somehow felt like the B team that somehow got pulled up into the A team. It's like in Lost where suddenly and random couple is upgraded to main cast and everyone is like 'who the heck are you'... until they suddenly get killed off. How the heck a former janitor and a mechanic can assess some secret new military device by spitballing for a few seconds, never investigating, researching... and be right with pinpoint accuracy, and develop a solution that would've worked except for a traitor... well that is beyond me. Finn's forte should be ground combat or countering boarding parties, but the story didn't give him anything to do that would have played to his skillset- so they give him magical insight into experimental technology on a completely different ship. I would've preferred if Finn had gone off on his own. And then it turns out they fail- so basically that in that entire plot line, nothing was accomplished except to make things worse. Which could have worked if the story arc was Po learning not to be a maverick or something, but it's not Po that goes on the adventure (he's on ice)- it's Finn and he has no real goals except that Rey not come back into the trap... and that's about it.
Tolkien wrote (paraphrasing... and maybe interpreting) that a good monster is necessary for a story because the greater the cost of a hero's struggle makes the victory all the more better. I hated the villains. This trilogy is having a Disney or a Marvel problem with it's villains, which for all of Lucas' faults in the prequels, he still knew how to make active and forboding villains, even if he killed them off too soon (Maul). My only hope is now that the story has the cast the die with Kylo, not holding him in flux, we'll get a proper villain in the third film. I still hate Hux. The dreadnought commander had more presence in less films and far less screen time. He's a flunky to be thrown around, but there's nothing about him that is impressive. I was intrigued by Snokes in Force Awaken; I wanted to know more about who he was, where he came from, how learned to become powerful in the Force, and how Kylo fell in with him. Then he died. I get what they are doing with Kylo's story and why Snokes then died. However, it makes Snokes an awful villain (in both films) who does nothing except perform a pale imitation of the Emperor (Saruman playing at Sauron, if you will). I don't like him, and I really don't care to learn anything about him. Zero interest. And Kylo suffers from the same problem of modern Disney films- the surprise villain. The surprise is great, but it means the villains don't spend much time being villains. They need to appear to be good, which means they aren't as memorable as classic villains like Scar, Ursala, Jafar, etc. Well, Kylo isn't much of a surprise in that sense. But the film wants you to think he could go either way (and maybe even Rey could go either way- I was on board for a swap- he is saved, but she becomes corrupted.) But because they needed to keep him ambiguous, after his impressive starfighter battle (which I did like), he had nothing to do until the end.
And then to top it all off, they put all their villains on the same stupid treadmill- the entire plan consists of running them out of fuel, and then riddling them with bullets when their car coasts to a stop on the side of the road. It's serviceable, but it's not a good demonstration of the might of the Empire or the cleverness or resourcefulness of the villains. (They also have diminishing returns on their big ships- all they serve to do is blow up, which futher undermines the villains as anything impressive. By contrast Rogue One did a marvellous job of demonstrating what occupied rule looked like- you cared about one town shelled by one Star Destroyer because you actually spent time on the ground, milling around with the peasants. If Last Jedi was a tv show, it could almost be a bottle episode.) By contrast, Darth Vader is constantly shown to be a clever and active villain. He's seeking out the Rebels with probe droids- right away, active. He has special insight that the one structure is the Rebel base, contrary to his analysts- cleverness. He has a good plan that is wrecked by an incompetent inferior- he kills the officer and replaces with another- ruthlessness and does not suffer fools. The Hoth battle is given sufficient breathing room that you feel the might of the Empire despite it being only a handful of ATATs (Transport 1 is away, Transport 1 is away- you feel that relief). He's actively engaged in the ground assault. He tries multiple methods of taking out the Falcon (going into the asteroid field might have overambitious- wreckless). But then he hires bounty hunters- that's cool. He sets a trap, he gets ahead of the Falcon to Lando- that demonstrates foresight) Honestly, everything flows together in a very nice, tightly told story. This one is a mess, and I need to watch again to figure out what they were intending to do.
edit. Also. They did a bad job of Phasma the first time. So they brought her back... and did the exact same bad job again! Why would you repeat your error? If they do it a third time, I swear Star Wars will become a farce (change genre, not become a joke). She's a paper tiger that shows up to be defeated- again terrible villains. She needs to be involved in ground combat or boarding parties and this film doesn't give it to her (or Fin). And then they keep finding melee weapons for some reason- it makes more sense in a world of tons of Jedi where they just deflect your blasters back. Again, Rogue One got far better use out of simple blasters, grenades, and rigged explosions than this film did with its crazy contraptions.
The casino planet felt like it did not belong in this universe... and then the desire to bloody the noses of a bunch of rich people... is not really a motive that Star Wars heroes have had so far. Felt super out of place. Woohoo! Fight the 1%ers!
I don't know what is the obsession with Phasma. Is it vital for the movie to make her great character ? Why is she important ? She is walking action figure. I'm fine with her never existing. Just pretend that the 3 scenes with her never existed. I didn't even notice her in the first movie... Later I found that Christie has a role and that it is the female stormtrooper who has 2 lines.
This movie was great entertainment. All I can say about it. Two and half hours well spent. Obvously I didn't like some parts (idiot Hux for example), but overall it was good 7.5/10.
If they didn't want me to talk about her, they shouldn't have brought her back. The film (not the viewer) makes her important by virtue of bringing her back. There's no point- you are right, she isn't important, so she shouldn't have existed in the second. But that's a very minor complaint.
I've never been so antsy in a theatre- like I physically couldn't handle what I watching. Halfway through, I really, really was not enjoying anything that I watching (unless it was Luke, Rey, and Kylo... and once they joined the cruiser, I hated everything). I've never not wanted to be in the theatre. So this experience was really aggravating because I didn't want to be that guy because I knew some of my friends had watched it and enjoyed it. But I couldn't figure out what they could have liked when I was having such a terrible reaction to it.
If not for the ending, I was ready to place this as lower than all the prequels combined. I'm not sure where I stand now, which is why I want to see it again and try to give it a second chance, and to try and discover what the heck was going on with the story.
The New Republic for some reason demobilized like 90% of their troops immediatly after it was created, while still at war with the remnants of the empire post Vader and the Emperor.
Then a small portion of ex-Empire troops hidden in the outer reaches of the galaxy creates a massive fleet including a planet-sized Death Star.
While all of this was going on the New Republic does nothing. Instead a bunch of people from the old rebellion decide to create a new Resistance to fight the inevitable invasion.
Then the First Order destroys pretty much the whole New Republic and all their fleets with a single attack from the Starkiller base.
The two movies happens in a period of a few days, not even weeks, and in that period the First Order passed from being a bunch of extremists the New Republic didn't believe was a threat to the new Empire. Maybe stronger than the Empire considering the new ships we saw.
The need to recreate a Rebels vs Empire conflict again was so forced it never made any sense. And it is never even explained in the movies, you would expect the new Resistance is the New Republic, not a split rebel force.
And that's without even going into the individual characters. The whole idea that having an idiot like Hux in charge is good for the First Order makes no sense. There is no reason why Snoke/Kylo would keep in charge blunder after blunder.
In the end they tried to force the old status quo on the universe but it just doesn't work because the First Order just doesn't feel like the same threat. They are too incompetent. Even when the First Order should have had a massive victory, the rebels pull some crazy stunt that should never have worked and soften the blow.
One thing that I guess can't be helped, but I really don't like a Star Wars universe when Luke, Leia, and Han Solo are all dead and we get no time to see Luke as the grand master, the Jedi Returned. It's not as fun a universe- it's like reading the Appendices of the Lord of the Rings for the first time. Everyone dies or sails away and just Arwen is left to wander lonely and heartbroken through empty elf-lands. Lord of the Rings is rooted in that sort of tragedy. Star Wars... Star Wars doesn't pull that off very well.
Star Wars works well with the sacrificial death, which is why I was even more annoyed with the Rose character. I already didn't like her, but then she selfishly stole Finn's sacrificial death when he was trying to save what was left of the Rebellion (sorry, Resistance). Finn had nothing else going on in the story, and so if they had run out of things for him to do, it seemed to me that this was actually a pretty good ending to his character: the cowardly deserter that ends up giving his life for the sake of others. That's a great story arc. But instead we got (what looks like) an awkward romance to rival Anakin and Padme that literally and metaphorically sideswipes Finn.
I liked most of Rose actually barring her glider scene. What Falling says about the B team becoming the A team is exactly that, the A team is dead, so the B team takes over, imo that was very clear. I think this movie did a really good job with actually developing enough side characters that the losses of the rebellion become painful. When they gather in the fortress I thought "wow, that's not a lot of people. They are finished either way."
I agree that Hux is just comedy relief and doesn't fit the tone of the movie at all. It's probably the one major character I really dislike. And I don't think it's the actors fault, Hux (character) is just too bad at his job.
I like Rivals becoming the BBE, so I guess I disagree with Tolkien there (despite loving his books), developing the bad guys is just a different way to tell a story. I really like Kylo in this movie.
I think we saw grandmaster Luke at the end of the movie, he saved the rebellion after all.
Also Phasma actually got her fight and almost won it 1v2, I'm fine with that. In difference to Ep.7 Phasma didn't look like a total pushover.
I have a few observations that actually are more like confusions (saw this movie about 24 hours ago) I'm going to post them in hopes that people explain things. .
1. Princess Leia apparently is the most incompetent leader of all time. She has gone from a New Galactic Republic to having a 20 person crew on a spaceship in about 20 years. How is this possible? Like, if she was George Washington, we would have been doomed.
2. Point 1 is further emphasized by her anointed #2 who's plan is "escape pods, but the enemies won't look for them." FFS lady, Star Destroyers not only can scan for escape pods, they know whether they have life forms on them! This was established in the first 5 minutes of the first star wars movie ever made. How is this a plan? How does the director/screenwriter pretend for even a second its not retarded?
3. Apparently Star Wars now has relativistic weapons, and/or people forgot how to defend against them? Both propositions are insane. First of all, this proposition invalidates not only all previous battles, but the concept of light speed itself. Your shields don't stop objects? Good luck son. Moreover, why didn't Leia's (retarded as we discussed above) number 2 engage her light speed ramming plan immediately? Why doesn't everyone just have designated robot-controlled light speed ramming ships? This is the most effective technique we have ever seen. If this is a known move, how does the 1st order not have a plan? Why are like 90% of their ships in a straight line for ramming? Plus, why didn't any of those ships use light speed to cut off the rebels during a weirdly unnecessary 20 hour chase?
4. Apparently the Force is now 5x as powerful as it was in the Original Trilogy and the Prequels. That is it. Leia has force powers akin to a Jedi, and Jedis have force powers that make Yoda look like a clown. At first, in The Force Awakens I thought Kylo Ren and Rey were supposed to be new, super OP, Jedis. Nope? Luke now has a previously unseen hologram power, Snoke (who is mostly lame) has a kind of spirit walking power + can instantly read the minds of other force users + can force throw things better than anyone in the first 6 movies.
5. What actually happened? How is Episode 9 different having had this happen? Im overall confused as to what actually happened.
After seeing TLJ, it doesn't feel like a trilogy anymore. It seems there isnt a single cohesive vision of what the SW needs to be, except that everything that came before needs to burn in order to differentiate itself from previous movies. I saw a quote somewhere saying that: if ep7 was a love letter to the original trilogy, then ep8 is most certainly a hate letter. I don't see it exactly like a hate letter, but imo it tried to defy expectations a bit too much and effectively killed the legacy of Luke. Now I understand why Mark Hamill had a few interviews in which he stated how much he disagrees with the director's vision of Luke. I guess in his mind the jaded Luke represent the jaded SW fans who are never happy with anything, but in my experience that's a very small portion of loud SW fans.
I mean I get it, the director wanted to defy expectations, sever the ties with the previous movies and set a new course for the SW universe, so in a sense I see ep8 as a soft reboot.
I liked how Kylo and Rey developed in this movie, I dont mind that Rey is a nobody, I actually like the idea and I also dont mind that she went from 0 to jedi master in a such a short time. But this fast track development leaves little room to connect with the character. I think 30 years from now when we look back at SW, she wont be a very memorable character, everybody's going to be talking about Kylo because he actually gets enough development and the actor does a great job portraying him.
All in all, a mediocre movie without a clear vision of what it wants to be. The only redeeming quality is the character of Kylo and the actor that portrays him. For all the shit the prequels took, take any 30 min sequence from any of the 3 movies, you'll hear more memorable quotes, see more memorable places and memorable characters than ep7 and ep8 combined. The new SW movies lack vision and imagination, they feel like they were shot in different places around our planet, it didn't feel like a galaxy far far away, in fact with all their blatant political statements it felt a bit too much like home.
[QUOTE]On December 24 2017 20:20 FreakyDroid wrote: I dont mind that Rey is a nobody, I actually like the idea and I also dont mind that she went from 0 to jedi master in a such a short time./QUOTE]
I generally agreed with the majority of points you made. I never quite saw it as her going from 0 to a Jedi Master. Even after the recent movie, I still don't see it that way. To me it was more or less portrayed as, 2 relative green horns who had an immense amount of potential, or inherent power that were undisciplined and untrained. The majority of instances in which they tapped into them were only in extreme emotionally taxing or stressful conditions. I.E., when Luke tries to half kill kylo and he realizes and freaks in retaliation with a force blast, before this he wasn't to what i recall, capable of such power. Comparing someone like snoke's ability to manipulate the force (Drag Rey over, lift Rey into the air, bound her, all the while simultaneously draw the information out of her mind) is vastly more powerful than what kylo has shown which was more or less on he same par of skill with Rey.
TL;DR, i don't think they're jedi masters, their powers are more or less only tapped in extreme scenarios, and they are not in full control of them. Very much like a human is capable of lifting a car in an extremely emotional state filled with adrenaline.
I like Rivals becoming the BBE, so I guess I disagree with Tolkien there (despite loving his books), developing the bad guys is just a different way to tell a story. I really like Kylo in this movie.
What does BBE stand for?
Assuming you mean Rivals become enemies, that is not contradictory to Tolkien's contention, nor is developing the bad guys. The issue is do you have a competent enemy, a worthy foe, someone of significance worth beating. They don't need to have levels over 9000, in fact they can be all too human. But there needs to be something they are very good at that makes them difficult to defeat. Grand Admiral Thrawn in the EU is a great example- his martial ability and pilot abilities are completely untested and likely subpar. But his chief weapon his brilliant mind- he is a worthy foe because he is so difficult to out think.
Rivals becoming enemies is an awesome archetypal story- Walking Dead was great as long as it had Shane vs Rick. Once that ended (and it did need to; it couldn't go on forever), a lot of the power of the story disappeared for me and I stopped watching. Prince of Egypt (which I just rewatched recently) is another great example of friends becoming rivals- classic storytelling and brilliant. But Ramses is a significant threat with the power of the Egyptian empire behind him. That's not what this film does- it might try to go there, but it's a mess and doesn't really succeed.
What Falling says about the B team becoming the A team is exactly that, the A team is dead, so the B team takes over, imo that was very clear.
I don't mean the heroes are dying and so insignificant nobodies are rising up to take their place like the Hobbits of the Shire. I mean, it's like they grabbed an Extra or an NPC and thrust her into the spotlight. Like, who are you and what are you doing in this story? Maybe its her line delivery. Or maybe she comes across as a mediocre character with over-sized magical insight. The Ensign Wesley Crusher of the cast.
What the movie needs is a proper antagonist- someone that actively opposes what the protagonist is doing. Perhaps that is part of the problem- the protagonists aren't really trying to do anything. Well, Rey is, but the baddies aren't really trying to stop that. And the other protagonists are just trying to survive, and so I guess the antagonists are trying to stop that... by sitting on their butts and waiting for most of the film. Yay? Technically it's somewhat similar to the Empire Strikes Back Han-Leia plotline, but the execution is awful by comparison. It's "only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery."
2. Point 1 is further emphasized by her anointed #2 who's plan is "escape pods, but the enemies won't look for them." FFS lady, Star Destroyers not only can scan for escape pods, they know whether they have life forms on them! This was established in the first 5 minutes of the first star wars movie ever made. How is this a plan? How does the director/screenwriter pretend for even a second its not retarded?
I think that it's obvious that this was a desperation, last second plan. The rebels didn't know that the First order can track them, so they were caught by surprise. When they are caught with their pants down, it's reasonable to assume that they just hoped for the best. It's not reasonable to expect some kind of miracle escape. As we clearly saw, the First order detected the pods and many rebels died, but some of them made it.
I don't get the criticism that TLJ was too feminist or something along those lines.
While it is true that it has quite a large amount of female characters (phasma, leia, rey, rose, holdo) there are still more male characters (Hux, Luke, Finn, Poe, Kylo, and whatever Snoke is). There is one black dude, but Empire had Lando.
Moreover, the movie never makes these characters special just because of their gender - Leia's force powers don't come from a magical uterus or something. They are just characters that happen to be female.
On this front, the reason, I think, why some people might find TLJ jarring is because we are just so used to seeing movies which have main characters which are predominately male, with the one or two stereotype female extras (usually love interest or femme fatal).
I like Rivals becoming the BBE, so I guess I disagree with Tolkien there (despite loving his books), developing the bad guys is just a different way to tell a story. I really like Kylo in this movie.
What does BBE stand for?
Assuming you mean Rivals become enemies, that is not contradictory to Tolkien's contention, nor is developing the bad guys. The issue is do you have a competent enemy, a worthy foe, someone of significance worth beating. They don't need to have levels over 9000, in fact they can be all too human. But there needs to be something they are very good at that makes them difficult to defeat. Grand Admiral Thrawn in the EU is a great example- his martial ability and pilot abilities are completely untested and likely subpar. But his chief weapon his brilliant mind- he is a worthy foe because he is so difficult to out think.
Rivals becoming enemies is an awesome archetypal story- Walking Dead was great as long as it had Shane vs Rick. Once that ended (and it did need to; it couldn't go on forever), a lot of the power of the story disappeared for me and I stopped watching. Prince of Egypt (which I just rewatched recently) is another great example of friends becoming rivals- classic storytelling and brilliant. But Ramses is a significant threat with the power of the Egyptian empire behind him. That's not what this film does- it might try to go there, but it's a mess and doesn't really succeed.
What Falling says about the B team becoming the A team is exactly that, the A team is dead, so the B team takes over, imo that was very clear.
I don't mean the heroes are dying and so insignificant nobodies are rising up to take their place like the Hobbits of the Shire. I mean, it's like they grabbed an Extra or an NPC and thrust her into the spotlight. Like, who are you and what are you doing in this story? Maybe its her line delivery. Or maybe she comes across as a mediocre character with over-sized magical insight. The Ensign Wesley Crusher of the cast.
What the movie needs is a proper antagonist- someone that actively opposes what the protagonist is doing. Perhaps that is part of the problem- the protagonists aren't really trying to do anything. Well, Rey is, but the baddies aren't really trying to stop that. And the other protagonists are just trying to survive, and so I guess the antagonists are trying to stop that... by sitting on their butts and waiting for most of the film. Yay? Technically it's somewhat similar to the Empire Strikes Back Han-Leia plotline, but the execution is awful by comparison. It's "only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery."
BBE is short for big bad evil (from TvTropes).
Idk, for me Kylo is constantly slightly above Rey's level, which is fairly normal for an evil Rival. I expect a powerboost for Kylo in the near future to make him a menacing threat and if I was JJA I'd probably use a Holocron. I agree that Kylo doesn't feel like an "Oh shit, he's here" character like Vader in the OT, but imo he's getting there as the movie progresses.
I think the main problem with the antagonists in this movie is that basic outlet of the story damns the FO to just sit around and wait for the fuel to expire. They've made their move and now can only wait. Ofc they could have just bombed them with small crafts, but are too dumb for that. And the protagonists don't have a lot of options either because their situation and equipment blows and it's space, so there's no terrain or interaction.
I would have liked that to develop into a cat and mouse game with multiple plans and counterplans, which somewhat happens in the second half of the movie. But they have 3 major plotlines running at the same time during the first half, so they don't really have time for that.
I'm not trying to argue that the basic plot isn't very well thought out. Imo the movie has enough strengths to redeem the weak plot and tonal changes, but I can totally see why people didn't like the movie.
I somewhat agree on the Rose part, her lines were prolly the worst in the movie. But I think that she resembles a nobody that can still tell a story and imo she does that well (despite all the heavy handed morale lessons from her). I agree that she isn't really a protagonist, but neither was purple hair admiral and you can somewhat argue about Poe, Finn, Leia and Luke, who all aren't really protagonists but definitely important for the story. I like that there are a bunch of characters I can tell a story about after the movie, gives me the feeling of an actual group, not just 2-3 protagonists and a bunch of extras.
On December 25 2017 11:05 levelping wrote: I don't get the criticism that TLJ was too feminist or something along those lines.
While it is true that it has quite a large amount of female characters (phasma, leia, rey, rose, holdo) there are still more male characters (Hux, Luke, Finn, Poe, Kylo, and whatever Snoke is). There is one black dude, but Empire had Lando.
Moreover, the movie never makes these characters special just because of their gender - Leia's force powers don't come from a magical uterus or something. They are just characters that happen to be female.
On this front, the reason, I think, why some people might find TLJ jarring is because we are just so used to seeing movies which have main characters which are predominately male, with the one or two stereotype female extras (usually love interest or femme fatal).
Notice that all the male characters you listed are either given reproachable traits that were once considered stereotypically feminine, or are regularly upstaged by their women co-leads. Meanwhile, the female leads possess positive masculine traits and are given the lion's share of inspiration and praiseworthy scenes. This frequently leads to jarring juxtaposition when Johnson wants the women characters to do classically "heroic" things, but misunderstands the nature of those concepts (the first interaction between Holdo and Poe is a prime example).
On December 25 2017 11:05 levelping wrote: I don't get the criticism that TLJ was too feminist or something along those lines.
While it is true that it has quite a large amount of female characters (phasma, leia, rey, rose, holdo) there are still more male characters (Hux, Luke, Finn, Poe, Kylo, and whatever Snoke is). There is one black dude, but Empire had Lando.
Moreover, the movie never makes these characters special just because of their gender - Leia's force powers don't come from a magical uterus or something. They are just characters that happen to be female.
On this front, the reason, I think, why some people might find TLJ jarring is because we are just so used to seeing movies which have main characters which are predominately male, with the one or two stereotype female extras (usually love interest or femme fatal).
Notice that all the male characters you listed are either given reproachable traits that were once considered stereotypically feminine, or are regularly upstaged by their women co-leads. Meanwhile, the female leads possess positive masculine traits and are given the lion's share of inspiration and praiseworthy scenes. This frequently leads to jarring juxtaposition when Johnson wants the women characters to do classically "heroic" things, but misunderstands the nature of those concepts (the first interaction between Holdo and Poe is a prime example).
Which traits in the male characters are things which were "once considered stereotypically feminine"? As for being upstaged, the upstaging happens as a result of a function of the plot, and not a function of their character's gender. Leia zaps Poe because he is literally committing mutiny, and not because Leia is a woman. Leia's position and authority comes from her position as a general, and again, not because she is woman too.
In any event, assuming what you are saying is true, are such "masculine/feminine" traits simply a function of the roles that the people play and the fact that they have often been played by a particular gender?
You mentioned Holdo and Poe's first interaction (if I am not wrong this is where Poe asks her what is her plan). In almost any military outfit, plans are on a need to know basis and there is no obligation for commanders to consult with their subordinates about plans. This would probably apply in a good deal of everyday life settings too, so long as there is a strict hierarchy in the organization.
In that context, I don't see Holdo's reaction as being either typically "masculine" or "feminine" - she's just doing what some authority figures would have done in that situation.
EDIT - if we really want to make the accusation that TLJ is feminist, then I guess the decisive question to ask is that if all the genders were reversed, would it make any different? I currently don't see how Holdo being male would change much about her interaction with Poe.
I wondered this- am I having a negative reaction because they are female. But the more I considered, the more I realized, no that is not the case. Battlestar Galactica had lots of female characters and I love it. Same with The Expanse. The problem is the most of the characters are badly realized outside of Rey- I'm not on the Rey hate train. I like her and her story. But give me a Starbuck. Give me a Helena Cain. Give me a Rosalin. Hell, give me a Dualla or a Cally- a plucky mechanic, who gets into a firefight way overhead, gets a form of shellshock, but remains a very sympathetic character.
I would certainly take an Avarsala over the purple-haired commander, and replace Rose with Naomi Nagata of The Expanse.
On December 25 2017 14:18 Falling wrote: I wondered this- am I having a negative reaction because they are female. But the more I considered, the more I realized, no that is not the case. Battlestar Galactica had lots of female characters and I love it. Same with The Expanse. The problem is the most of the characters are badly realized outside of Rey- I'm not on the Rey hate train. I like her and her story. But give me a Starbuck. Give me a Helena Cain. Give me a Rosalin. Hell, give me a Dualla or a Cally- a plucky mechanic, who gets into a firefight way overhead, gets a form of shellshock, but remains a very sympathetic character.
I would certainly take an Avarsala over the purple-haired commander, and replace Rose with Naomi Nagata of The Expanse.
Well unfortunately movie characters do not really get the same amount of space to grow as TV characters, so you observation that the female cast of Galactica are more fleshed out is probably true. The same thing would be the same for the male characters though. Poe is literally almost defined by his job - hot shot fighter pilot.
(I'm just mentioning this to point out that there could be a wider issue with all characters, as opposed to the criticism that TLJ is bad because of "feminists", which I think really has not much to go on)
On December 25 2017 14:32 LegalLord wrote: It’s not so much about feminism as it is about the abundance of bad to mediocre female characters.
Save for Kylo being more fleshed out than Rey, I don't really think that the female characters any worse than the male characters. Both groups have their forgettables (Phasma, the hacker/gambler dude, Rose, even Snoke), their one dimensional tropes (rey "good jedi", Poe "fly boy"), and semi-effective leadership figures (holdo, Hux).
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: Which traits in the male characters are things which were "once considered stereotypically feminine"?
Throughout the film it is drilled into our heads that Poe is unfit for leadership because he is too solipsistic, one of the most common barbs used against women imaginable. Multiple instances of dialogue "confirm" he is impulsive. egotistic, lacking finesse and unable from distance himself from his instinctual reactions. Remember this isn't the standard criticism of the independent hotshot a la Han Solo: anti-heroes are primarily scrutinized for the lack of connection to any community, regardless of their expertise or reliability. Solo's redemption in RotJ is the common dramatic turn of a loner who elects to fight for a cause bigger than himself. But Poe is already committed to the Resistance, so his character flaws translate into personal failure. He destroys the Dreadnought at the cost of most of the bombing squadron; his hidden plan with Finn and Rose leads to the First Order targeting the escaping transport vessels; his coup is neatly nipped in the bud by Leia and company.
The problem is this requires the viewer to take the movie at face value instead of looking at the larger picture. It would take a long wall of text to elucidate but the short version is, Poe does nothing wrong. All his "bad judgments" assume platitudes completely unbefitting of the tone and locution Johnson is trying to establish, which is why the constant dressing-down becomes cloying and ridiculous by the end. It's quite telling that the conflict between Poe and Leia/Holdo is not about risk assessment or disagreement on what sacrifices are worthwhile in a guerilla war. Instead, it's that he needs to mollify his inclinations to fight and learn how to run away better. In short he has to become more like the previous leaders, who have high marks in sanctification and low marks in actual leadership and initiative.
So the end of the movie has him repeating the maxims originally utterly by Leia and Holdo, mixed with a "awww, aren't mutinous officers cute" between those two while his unconscious body is carried into an escape pod. The whole bit about "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down" is pure sentimental hokum. The Resistance has no identity beyond being the symbolic descendant of the Rebel Alliance. They don't stand for anything beyond not being the bad guy.
Kylo's defining character flaw is his emotional instability. He is torn apart by the inability to choose an identity; he won't forgo his sentimental attachment to his blood relatives and he won't completely commit to the values of the Sith. Snoke mocks him for this during the first throne room sequence, insinuating he is a child aping Darth Vader's legacy. We see him lose control several times throughout the course of the film, erupting into outbursts of rage that cloud his judgment. We see this pop up once again on when. He does not consider the implausibility of the scenario (how is Luke even there?). Instead of using his affinity with the Dark Side to tease out that's a Force Projection, he challenges Luke in a 1v1 for no other reason than emotional resolution. He fails to prioritize the mission ahead of his personal feelings, which results in the FO's failure to end the Resistance.
Kylo is also notable for being emotionally manipulative, not in the sense of straightforward lying or offering power (Vader in ESB and RotJ, Sidious in RotJ) but feigning empathy and understanding while secretly harboring more sinister plans. His whole interaction with Rey is the equivalent of putting on a front, highlighting his vulnerability and suggesting he can help reconcile Rey's confusion and longing for her parents. This is a stark departure from the blunt transactional interactions of the Sith in the past, which Snoke carries on. The closest analog would be Palpatine in the prequels, which was necessary since he was literally pretending to be someone else.
Luke is consumed by his failure to properly train and protect young Ben from the Dark Side. This one catastrophic event completely annihilates his former idealism and commitment to fighting the good fight. Notably a tumultuous past is a running theme is many movies with female leads (Maleficent, Mad Max: Fury Road, etc.) , but these work as anchors to empathize with the protagonist's (or antagonist's) plight. In Luke's case it is portrayed as personal weakness, giving into self-doubt and forgetting about his true responsibilities; Yoda turns this into literal text during his cameo. Considering his history in the OT, the rationalization used is patently ridiculous.
Hux is a petty, sniveling, little shit entirely reliant on his rank to engender any respect. He doesn't have the decency to keep his insecurities behind closed doors either - TLJ makes it a running joke to mock his pretensions whenever he tries to do anything remotely respectable. He falls apart at the slightest hint of provocation, and he practically licks the floor Snoke walks on. It's unfathomable why Snoke would trust Hux with any responsibilities besides his insinuation that it's partially a joke, partially exploiting his validation-craving nature. He even considers backstabbing Kylo in the vain hope that he could take charge (as if anyone would respect him enough to obey the claim).
Again, huge departure from the OT's depiction of Empire leadership as cold, pragmatic, and mechanically efficient. The only meaningful conflict between Palpatine/Vader and the Empire's military elite is that some of the latter don't respect Vader due to their regard of the Force as pointless gibberish (and Vader ends that discussion in the first 15 minutes of ANH).
Finn is a whole bunch of nothingburger. He implicitly betrays Leia by stealing the transponder beacon when she is critically injured, and is literally willing to abandon ship so his kinda-sortof-maybe friend won't get hurt. Rose catches him in the act, zaps him after a really terrible attempt to rhetorically handwave away his intentions, and rightfully proceeds to berate him on the point. Just like Poe and Luke, Finn is too focused on the small picture (save a girl with whom he has an ambiguous relationship at best) to see the big picture (his importance as a symbol of hope and not being a coward). He mansplains over Rose during their covert meeting with Poe - it's not really established as part of his character as much as a random sign of disrespect. On Canto Bight he becomes an ADHD baby, cooing over shiny stuff while responsible Rose drags him along for the real mission. In fact, Finn has no meaningful story arc within the film. That would require him to have actual characterization. In fact he's just a whole bunch of miscalibrated feelings that requires someone's strong guidance to be channeled in the right way. Gee, sounds like a familiar trope...
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: As for being upstaged, the upstaging happens as a result of a function of the plot, and not a function of their character's gender. Leia zaps Poe because he is literally committing mutiny, and not because Leia is a woman. Leia's position and authority comes from her position as a general, and again, not because she is woman too.
Is there some intense gunfight as Poe shows he's willing to die for his beliefs? Does this devolve into terrible tragedy, showing how the stresses of war and desperation can result in allies turning on each other? No. Leia blasts him in the most casual way imaginable, as if he was just an irritating little bug that thought he was something better. The moment is inexplicably played for humor, not catharsis.
And that's a prime example where the movie stumbles. Leia's position and authority comes from her being Leia (i.e. purely symbolic); she doesn't show the competence or leadership skills to warrant that respect. It's simply assumed because of the meta-legacy of the character. Anyone familiar with the military knows there's a distinction between the rank and the person, and respect for the former has nothing to do with the latter. This conflation is the same thing that hurts Holdo's portrayal in the movie.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: In any event, assuming what you are saying is true, are such "masculine/feminine" traits simply a function of the roles that the people play and the fact that they have often been played by a particular gender?
If the first part is true, then the plot is simply semiotic masturbation and possesses no real characterization. Luckily, roles don't have "masculine/feminine" traits assigned to them by default. Real life and better media have proven this over and over again.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: You mentioned Holdo and Poe's first interaction (if I am not wrong this is where Poe asks her what is her plan). In almost any military outfit, plans are on a need to know basis and there is no obligation for commanders to consult with their subordinates about plans. This would probably apply in a good deal of everyday life settings too, so long as there is a strict hierarchy in the organization.
In almost any military outfit, the commanding officer understands that an unified chain of command is essential for efficient communication and execution. This is especially critical in certain situations, such as...a full-scale retreat from a superior force with no clear escape plan. Therefore any competent military leader also understands that any conflict between leaders of different ranks must be minimized as quickly as possible. Either you instinctively pull rank, defer the conflict to be resolved at a later time, or inform the subordinate with as much information you can afford to give.
What you don't do is dress down the subordinate in public while simultaneously showing that you cannot address his concerns. That is the definition of a novice move, especially for someone who just assumed command, and it's what Holdo does by demand of the script.
Also, your comprehension of military hierarchy only works outside real combat. "Need-to-know basis" and "I don't need input from plebs" have been the causes of innumerable blunders and lost battles. You could demarcate the entire history of military combat along those two principles.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: In that context, I don't see Holdo's reaction as being either typically "masculine" or "feminine" - she's just doing what some authority figures would have done in that situation.
Holdo's conversation with Poe is the well-worn paradigm of a dick-measuring contest. She ignores his concerns, questions his credentials, then personally insults him all with a snide, condescending tone. You might be mistaken for thinking it's a skit from a 40's noir movie with Humphrey Bogart. It is also a clear sign of incompetence on her part. The proper way to address the situation would be how Gene Hackman's character deals with Denzel's Washington's in the first third of Crimson Tide.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: EDIT - if we really want to make the accusation that TLJ is feminist, then I guess the decisive question to ask is that if all the genders were reversed, would it make any different? I currently don't see how Holdo being male would change much about her interaction with Poe.
If the genders were reversed, Twitter would be alight with complaints about how girl-Poe and girl-Luke and girl-Kylo are the oldest, most tiresome stereotypes imaginable. They're all weak women so consumed by their feelings and insecurities that they need strong men (boy-Rose, boy-Rey, boy-Holdo) to shake them out of their self-absorption and focus on what's important. And god, could you imagine the scorn girl-Hux would receive?
On December 25 2017 14:18 Falling wrote: I wondered this- am I having a negative reaction because they are female. But the more I considered, the more I realized, no that is not the case. Battlestar Galactica had lots of female characters and I love it. Same with The Expanse. The problem is the most of the characters are badly realized outside of Rey- I'm not on the Rey hate train. I like her and her story. But give me a Starbuck. Give me a Helena Cain. Give me a Rosalin. Hell, give me a Dualla or a Cally- a plucky mechanic, who gets into a firefight way overhead, gets a form of shellshock, but remains a very sympathetic character.
I would certainly take an Avarsala over the purple-haired commander, and replace Rose with Naomi Nagata of The Expanse.
Well unfortunately movie characters do not really get the same amount of space to grow as TV characters, so you observation that the female cast of Galactica are more fleshed out is probably true. The same thing would be the same for the male characters though. Poe is literally almost defined by his job - hot shot fighter pilot.
(I'm just mentioning this to point out that there could be a wider issue with all characters, as opposed to the criticism that TLJ is bad because of "feminists", which I think really has not much to go on)
It's not more time that they need. In thirty seconds, the Dreadnought commander demonstrated more competence and military gravitas than Hux and purple-haired combined for their entire screen time. The first introduction of Helena Cain established her dominance. Movies have shorthand ways to portray good and bad commanders. The movie gives us all the signals of a bad commander with purple-hair- no protection of authority (listen to how Poe talks to her and she just lets him), no plan, and no communication and no showing of competence, just telling. "Need to know" with that sort of commander gives off all the signals of a classic incompetent commander. Then they turn around and expect us to think she is a great commander despite not showing any of her brilliance. Great job. You surprised me by not showing anything and then telling me what she is, which contradicts what my lying eyes see.
A proper military story that wanted to show that Poe had messed up, would have Poe upbraided for losing the fighter screen in a senseless attack... and there would be an onscreen demonstration of why that fighter screen would have been important (either for some brilliant escape plan that now won't work, or they are now vulnerable to attack.) We would physically see how he had dun goofed. But as it is, it seems to me he had the most successful plan. The fighters were useless anyways, he took out a really big ship and if they were thinking they could have used that as PR to spark the rebellion. 'Hey, look at us, even though we were outgunned and on the run, we can still blow up their biggest ships. Our pilots are the best. Join us the fight for freedom.' Instead we are just told things are bad because people died... it's freaking war: people die. It seems like it was a pretty good trade all things considered. Show me the consequences of his decisions. Show me he did a dumb thing, and show me that she is actually a competent commander. This is a visual medium, so show me the goods.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: Which traits in the male characters are things which were "once considered stereotypically feminine"?
Throughout the film it is drilled into our heads that Poe is unfit for leadership because he is too solipsistic, one of the most common barbs used against women imaginable. Multiple instances of dialogue "confirm" he is impulsive. egotistic, lacking finesse and unable from distance himself from his instinctual reactions. Remember this isn't the standard criticism of the independent hotshot a la Han Solo: anti-heroes are primarily scrutinized for the lack of connection to any community, regardless of their expertise or reliability. Solo's redemption in RotJ is the common dramatic turn of a loner who elects to fight for a cause bigger than himself. But Poe is already committed to the Resistance, so his character flaws translate into personal failure. He destroys the Dreadnought at the cost of most of the bombing squadron; his hidden plan with Finn and Rose leads to the First Order targeting the escaping transport vessels; his coup is neatly nipped in the bud by Leia and company.
The problem is this requires the viewer to take the movie at face value instead of looking at the larger picture. It would take a long wall of text to elucidate but the short version is, Poe does nothing wrong. All his "bad judgments" assume platitudes completely unbefitting of the tone and locution Johnson is trying to establish, which is why the constant dressing-down becomes cloying and ridiculous by the end. It's quite telling that the conflict between Poe and Leia/Holdo is not about risk assessment or disagreement on what sacrifices are worthwhile in a guerilla war. Instead, it's that he needs to mollify his inclinations to fight and learn how to run away better. In short he has to become more like the previous leaders, who have high marks in sanctification and low marks in actual leadership and initiative.
So the end of the movie has him repeating the maxims originally utterly by Leia and Holdo, mixed with a "awww, aren't mutinous officers cute" between those two while his unconscious body is carried into an escape pod. The whole bit about "We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down" is pure sentimental hokum. The Resistance has no identity beyond being the symbolic descendant of the Rebel Alliance. They don't stand for anything beyond not being the bad guy.
Kylo's defining character flaw is his emotional instability. He is torn apart by the inability to choose an identity; he won't forgo his sentimental attachment to his blood relatives and he won't completely commit to the values of the Sith. Snoke mocks him for this during the first throne room sequence, insinuating he is a child aping Darth Vader's legacy. We see him lose control several times throughout the course of the film, erupting into outbursts of rage that cloud his judgment. We see this pop up once again on when. He does not consider the implausibility of the scenario (how is Luke even there?). Instead of using his affinity with the Dark Side to tease out that's a Force Projection, he challenges Luke in a 1v1 for no other reason than emotional resolution. He fails to prioritize the mission ahead of his personal feelings, which results in the FO's failure to end the Resistance.
Kylo is also notable for being emotionally manipulative, not in the sense of straightforward lying or offering power (Vader in ESB and RotJ, Sidious in RotJ) but feigning empathy and understanding while secretly harboring more sinister plans. His whole interaction with Rey is the equivalent of putting on a front, highlighting his vulnerability and suggesting he can help reconcile Rey's confusion and longing for her parents. This is a stark departure from the blunt transactional interactions of the Sith in the past, which Snoke carries on. The closest analog would be Palpatine in the prequels, which was necessary since he was literally pretending to be someone else.
Luke is consumed by his failure to properly train and protect young Ben from the Dark Side. This one catastrophic event completely annihilates his former idealism and commitment to fighting the good fight. Notably a tumultuous past is a running theme is many movies with female leads (Maleficent, Mad Max: Fury Road, etc.) , but these work as anchors to empathize with the protagonist's (or antagonist's) plight. In Luke's case it is portrayed as personal weakness, giving into self-doubt and forgetting about his true responsibilities; Yoda turns this into literal text during his cameo. Considering his history in the OT, the rationalization used is patently ridiculous.
Hux is a petty, sniveling, little shit entirely reliant on his rank to engender any respect. He doesn't have the decency to keep his insecurities behind closed doors either - TLJ makes it a running joke to mock his pretensions whenever he tries to do anything remotely respectable. He falls apart at the slightest hint of provocation, and he practically licks the floor Snoke walks on. It's unfathomable why Snoke would trust Hux with any responsibilities besides his insinuation that it's partially a joke, partially exploiting his validation-craving nature. He even considers backstabbing Kylo in the vain hope that he could take charge (as if anyone would respect him enough to obey the claim).
Again, huge departure from the OT's depiction of Empire leadership as cold, pragmatic, and mechanically efficient. The only meaningful conflict between Palpatine/Vader and the Empire's military elite is that some of the latter don't respect Vader due to their regard of the Force as pointless gibberish (and Vader ends that discussion in the first 15 minutes of ANH).
Finn is a whole bunch of nothingburger. He implicitly betrays Leia by stealing the transponder beacon when she is critically injured, and is literally willing to abandon ship so his kinda-sortof-maybe friend won't get hurt. Rose catches him in the act, zaps him after a really terrible attempt to rhetorically handwave away his intentions, and rightfully proceeds to berate him on the point. Just like Poe and Luke, Finn is too focused on the small picture (save a girl with whom he has an ambiguous relationship at best) to see the big picture (his importance as a symbol of hope and not being a coward). He mansplains over Rose during their covert meeting with Poe - it's not really established as part of his character as much as a random sign of disrespect. On Canto Bight he becomes an ADHD baby, cooing over shiny stuff while responsible Rose drags him along for the real mission. In fact, Finn has no meaningful story arc within the film. That would require him to have actual characterization. In fact he's just a whole bunch of miscalibrated feelings that requires someone's strong guidance to be channeled in the right way. Gee, sounds like a familiar trope...
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: As for being upstaged, the upstaging happens as a result of a function of the plot, and not a function of their character's gender. Leia zaps Poe because he is literally committing mutiny, and not because Leia is a woman. Leia's position and authority comes from her position as a general, and again, not because she is woman too.
Is there some intense gunfight as Poe shows he's willing to die for his beliefs? Does this devolve into terrible tragedy, showing how the stresses of war and desperation can result in allies turning on each other? No. Leia blasts him in the most casual way imaginable, as if he was just an irritating little bug that thought he was something better. The moment is inexplicably played for humor, not catharsis.
And that's a prime example where the movie stumbles. Leia's position and authority comes from her being Leia (i.e. purely symbolic); she doesn't show the competence or leadership skills to warrant that respect. It's simply assumed because of the meta-legacy of the character. Anyone familiar with the military knows there's a distinction between the rank and the person, and respect for the former has nothing to do with the latter. This conflation is the same thing that hurts Holdo's portrayal in the movie.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: In any event, assuming what you are saying is true, are such "masculine/feminine" traits simply a function of the roles that the people play and the fact that they have often been played by a particular gender?
If the first part is true, then the plot is simply semiotic masturbation and possesses no real characterization. Luckily, roles don't have "masculine/feminine" traits assigned to them by default. Real life and better media have proven this over and over again.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: You mentioned Holdo and Poe's first interaction (if I am not wrong this is where Poe asks her what is her plan). In almost any military outfit, plans are on a need to know basis and there is no obligation for commanders to consult with their subordinates about plans. This would probably apply in a good deal of everyday life settings too, so long as there is a strict hierarchy in the organization.
In almost any military outfit, the commanding officer understands that an unified chain of command is essential for efficient communication and execution. This is especially critical in certain situations, such as...a full-scale retreat from a superior force with no clear escape plan. Therefore any competent military leader also understands that any conflict between leaders of different ranks must be minimized as quickly as possible. Either you instinctively pull rank, defer the conflict to be resolved at a later time, or inform the subordinate with as much information you can afford to give.
What you don't do is dress down the subordinate in public while simultaneously showing that you cannot address his concerns. That is the definition of a novice move, especially for someone who just assumed command, and it's what Holdo does by demand of the script.
Also, your comprehension of military hierarchy only works outside real combat. "Need-to-know basis" and "I don't need input from plebs" have been the causes of innumerable blunders and lost battles. You could demarcate the entire history of military combat along those two principles.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: In that context, I don't see Holdo's reaction as being either typically "masculine" or "feminine" - she's just doing what some authority figures would have done in that situation.
Holdo's conversation with Poe is the well-worn paradigm of a dick-measuring contest. She ignores his concerns, questions his credentials, then personally insults him all with a snide, condescending tone. You might be mistaken for thinking it's a skit from a 40's noir movie with Humphrey Bogart. It is also a clear sign of incompetence on her part. The proper way to address the situation would be how Gene Hackman's character deals with Denzel's Washington's in the first third of Crimson Tide.
On December 25 2017 13:36 levelping wrote: EDIT - if we really want to make the accusation that TLJ is feminist, then I guess the decisive question to ask is that if all the genders were reversed, would it make any different? I currently don't see how Holdo being male would change much about her interaction with Poe.
If the genders were reversed, Twitter would be alight with complaints about how girl-Poe and girl-Luke and girl-Kylo are the oldest, most tiresome stereotypes imaginable. They're all weak women so consumed by their feelings and insecurities that they need strong men (boy-Rose, boy-Rey, boy-Holdo) to shake them out of their self-absorption and focus on what's important. And god, could you imagine the scorn girl-Hux would receive?
Well, beyond your original comment about Poe, I don't think you have quite established that the male characters are associated with "feminine traits". Moreover, what you have viewed as "solipsistic" is merely hotheadedness (a very masculine trait) by another name. Same for Kylo, who struggles with emotions common associated with men (anger) - I also do not follow how being emotionally manipulative is a female trait either, since as you have yourself pointed out, Palatine has done all that too.
Your mentioning of Luke, I think, really stretches the limits of association when you state "Notably a tumultuous past is a running theme is many movies with female leads (Maleficent, Mad Max: Fury Road, etc.)", when this same troupe appears repeatedly with male characters too (Batman).
Hux is again, hardly feminine in nature, since having a grovelling and ultimately cowardly henchman does not require that character to be a woman either. Littlefinger basically set the gold standard for scheming coward.
I hope you don't mind but I feel like this makes my point (without needing to go on to deal with the rest of the examples you have raised).
As for Holdo and Poe, I have actually had the tragic honor of wasting two years of my life in the military, and maybe it's done differently else where but challenging the position of your commanding officer in public, in the middle of an engagement, is going to get you an immediate dressing down. In combat you follow orders first, and then if you want you can have a discussion after the orders are executed. In Holdo's case, she actually went pretty lightly on Poe. She humored him in public, and when the conversation then became private she told him to shut up. He refused to listen, committed mutiny, and then got shot.
On December 25 2017 14:18 Falling wrote: I wondered this- am I having a negative reaction because they are female. But the more I considered, the more I realized, no that is not the case. Battlestar Galactica had lots of female characters and I love it. Same with The Expanse. The problem is the most of the characters are badly realized outside of Rey- I'm not on the Rey hate train. I like her and her story. But give me a Starbuck. Give me a Helena Cain. Give me a Rosalin. Hell, give me a Dualla or a Cally- a plucky mechanic, who gets into a firefight way overhead, gets a form of shellshock, but remains a very sympathetic character.
I would certainly take an Avarsala over the purple-haired commander, and replace Rose with Naomi Nagata of The Expanse.
Well unfortunately movie characters do not really get the same amount of space to grow as TV characters, so you observation that the female cast of Galactica are more fleshed out is probably true. The same thing would be the same for the male characters though. Poe is literally almost defined by his job - hot shot fighter pilot.
(I'm just mentioning this to point out that there could be a wider issue with all characters, as opposed to the criticism that TLJ is bad because of "feminists", which I think really has not much to go on)
It's not more time that they need. In thirty seconds, the Dreadnought commander demonstrated more competence and military gravitas than Hux and purple-haired combined for their entire screen time. The first introduction of Helena Cain established her dominance. Movies have shorthand ways to portray good and bad commanders. The movie gives us all the signals of a bad commander with purple-hair- no protection of authority (listen to how Poe talks to her and she just lets him), no plan, and no communication and no showing of competence, just telling. "Need to know" with that sort of commander gives off all the signals of a classic incompetent commander. Then they turn around and expect us to think she is a great commander despite not showing any of her brilliance. Great job. You surprised me by not showing anything and then telling me what she is, which contradicts what my lying eyes see.
A proper military story that wanted to show that Poe had messed up, would have Poe upbraided for losing the fighter screen in a senseless attack... and there would be an onscreen demonstration of why that fighter screen would have been important (either for some brilliant escape plan that now won't work, or they are now vulnerable to attack.) We would physically see how he had dun goofed. But as it is, it seems to me he had the most successful plan. The fighters were useless anyways, he took out a really big ship and if they were thinking they could have used that as PR to spark the rebellion. 'Hey, look at us, even though we were outgunned and on the run, we can still blow up their biggest ships. Our pilots are the best. Join us the fight for freedom.' Instead we are just told things are bad because people died... it's freaking war: people die. It seems like it was a pretty good trade all things considered. Show me the consequences of his decisions. Show me he did a dumb thing, and show me that she is actually a competent commander. This is a visual medium, so show me the goods.
For what it's worth, I do agree that the episode involving Poe, Holdo, and (eventually) Leia was clunky and the decisions of each character should have felt like they had more weight behind them.
I just disagree that this is a female character/male character issue.
I think it is beyond dispute that "Resistance" leadership is extremely incompetent, and it seems to me that the director/writer doesn't understand this. Thus, we are supposed to accept that Discount Han Solo was wing because he was dressed down, but really we get nothing because Leia and Purple Hair never earned that.
That is the whole problem of the new movies though. People don't seem to earn their place or power. In Ep 7 Kylo and Rey seem far too strong considering their lack of training (Kylo gets a bit retconning in 8). The existence of the First Order is unearned. 8 just continues that with Purple Hair and Red Hair being commanding officer despite being stupid and emotional. Even Snoke's power remains a mystery because his whole character is. The only people who's position makes sense are these from other movies (Luke) or those who the writers don't understand (Poe, who is appropriately a mid-level officer).
On December 25 2017 18:58 cLutZ wrote: I think it is beyond dispute that "Resistance" leadership is extremely incompetent, and it seems to me that the director/writer doesn't understand this. Thus, we are supposed to accept that Discount Han Solo was wing because he was dressed down, but really we get nothing because Leia and Purple Hair never earned that.
That is the whole problem of the new movies though. People don't seem to earn their place or power. In Ep 7 Kylo and Rey seem far too strong considering their lack of training (Kylo gets a bit retconning in 8). The existence of the First Order is unearned. 8 just continues that with Purple Hair and Red Hair being commanding officer despite being stupid and emotional. Even Snoke's power remains a mystery because his whole character is. The only people who's position makes sense are these from other movies (Luke) or those who the writers don't understand (Poe, who is appropriately a mid-level officer).
How did the emperor earn his position of power in the original series ? What did you learn about him from the movies ? What was his back story ? They just said "this is the emperor, he is more unpaitient than Vader". Then he shot lightning at Luke... then he found himself at the bottom of a shaft(Btw many people are upset, because Snoke didn't notice the lightsaber movement next to him... But nobody is upset about the "almighty" emperor doing basically the same in the original series). Great character. Snoke is what the emperor was, pretty much exactly. They even existed for the same amount of time in their respective trilogies(a movie and a half).
On December 25 2017 18:58 cLutZ wrote: I think it is beyond dispute that "Resistance" leadership is extremely incompetent, and it seems to me that the director/writer doesn't understand this. Thus, we are supposed to accept that Discount Han Solo was wing because he was dressed down, but really we get nothing because Leia and Purple Hair never earned that.
That is the whole problem of the new movies though. People don't seem to earn their place or power. In Ep 7 Kylo and Rey seem far too strong considering their lack of training (Kylo gets a bit retconning in 8). The existence of the First Order is unearned. 8 just continues that with Purple Hair and Red Hair being commanding officer despite being stupid and emotional. Even Snoke's power remains a mystery because his whole character is. The only people who's position makes sense are these from other movies (Luke) or those who the writers don't understand (Poe, who is appropriately a mid-level officer).
How did the emperor earn his position of power in the original series ? What did you learn about him from the movies ? What was his back story ? They just said "this is the emperor, he is more unpaitient than Vader". Then he shot lightning at Luke... then he found himself at the bottom of a shaft(Btw many people are upset, because Snoke didn't notice the lightsaber movement next to him... But nobody is upset about the "almighty" emperor doing basically the same in the original series). Great character. Snoke is what the emperor was, pretty much exactly. They even existed for the same amount of time in their respective trilogies(a movie and a half).
How are those deaths even comparable? First as you can see in the OT the Emperor doesnt have the power to sense everything, second he is fighting mainly vs Luke, and third it is the climax of the movie when you dont know if Vader will return to the light, you saw a different movie?
They both got killed while enjoying themselves too much and not paying attention. The emperor was not fighting anything... Rewatch the movie. You have a fight when both sides can strike back, in this case he was just torturing Luke.
On December 26 2017 03:46 Pr0wler wrote: They both got killed while enjoying themselves too much and not paying attention. The emperor was not fighting anything... Rewatch the movie. You have a fight when both sides can strike back, in this case he was just torturing Luke.
He fights via force lightning and is in the middle of delivering the final blow of force lightning when Vader picks him up and so he kills Vader instead of Luke. Also the Emperor may not have been present in the first movie but he was mentioned throughout the first film.
On December 26 2017 03:46 Pr0wler wrote: They both got killed while enjoying themselves too much and not paying attention. The emperor was not fighting anything... Rewatch the movie. You have a fight when both sides can strike back, in this case he was just torturing Luke.
He fights via force lightning and is in the middle of delivering the final blow of force lightning when Vader picks him up and so he kills Vader instead of Luke. Also the Emperor may not have been present in the first movie but he was mentioned throughout the first film.
I'm sure that Snoke will be mentioned in the third movie.
Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
On December 26 2017 08:54 Sermokala wrote: Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
Is there really a point to this kind of hyperbole?
We are talking about a film series where Luke was a desert farm boy who rescued a princess and blew up the death star in the first movie. Heck his father, anakin blew up a trade federation droid control ship... As a literal boy.
Rey flew the falcon took out some tie fighters, and lifted some rocks.
On December 26 2017 08:54 Sermokala wrote: Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
Is there really a point to this kind of hyperbole?
We are talking about a film series where Luke was a desert farm boy who rescued a princess and blew up the death star in the first movie. Heck his father, anakin blew up a trade federation droid control ship... As a literal boy.
Rey flew the falcon took out some tie fighters, and lifted some rocks.
Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to poeople.
Luke didnt fight well useing a lightsaber almost ever and.used it best at the end of three movies and a lot of training. Ray outmatched a trained and.vetrean sith less then a week after finding out lightsabers and the force were a thing. Ray who had before then been a begger child who had only been shown to fly a really fast bike and sled down a hill became a crack pilot capable of outflying kylos personal fighters on a ship she labeled as junk and didnt know how to fly in a matter of minutes. Luke is able to do the sled run beacuse he's bailed out by han and is just the last to die. He gives hope to the other fighters by comparing it to hitting rats with a blaster while on a super fast bike. He doesn't defeat Darth vader ever and only lives because of vader.
Anikin was champion podracer and that shits insane everything he did in the first one was an accident.
On December 26 2017 08:54 Sermokala wrote: Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
Is there really a point to this kind of hyperbole?
We are talking about a film series where Luke was a desert farm boy who rescued a princess and blew up the death star in the first movie. Heck his father, anakin blew up a trade federation droid control ship... As a literal boy.
Rey flew the falcon took out some tie fighters, and lifted some rocks.
Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to poeople.
Luke didnt fight well useing a lightsaber almost ever and.used it best at the end of three movies and a lot of training. Ray outmatched a trained and.vetrean sith less then a week after finding out lightsabers and the force were a thing. Ray who had before then been a begger child who had only been shown to fly a really fast bike and sled down a hill became a crack pilot capable of outflying kylos personal fighters on a ship she labeled as junk and didnt know how to fly in a matter of minutes. Luke is able to do the sled run beacuse he's bailed out by han and is just the last to die. He gives hope to the other fighters by comparing it to hitting rats with a blaster while on a super fast bike. He doesn't defeat Darth vader ever and only lives because of vader.
Anikin was champion podracer and that shits insane everything he did in the first one was an accident.
There are differences.
Yeah of course these films are important, but if your complaint is that Rey is too powerful, then it feels like you missed out on the general power levels of all the main characters in the trilogy.
At the time of ANH, Luke was a moisture farmer who wanted to joint the Imperial Academy. No part of this back ground tells us that he has even touched an x-wing, or any equivalent fighter. He does make the off hand remark that shooting the death start's heath exhaust port would be like shooting rats, but when you are shooting rats you aren't operating a fighter in three dimensions all the while with an entire death star's worth of TIE fighters trying to kill you. Han did help Luke, but come on, this whole story would be the equivalent of a farmer suddenly flying an F-16 and destroying North Korea with the help of a buddy.
Anakin was a champion podracer at NINE, without any real podracing training (he was a slave), and against older and seasoned opponents. Then as a nine year old boy he manages to fly a fighter into space, and "accidentally" destroy the droid control ship.
Plus I don't get the Rey beating kylo thing. TFA establishes that a) the wookie bowcaster is really powerful (it's show several times to blow people off their feet) b) Kylo gets hit directly in the gut by a shot from the bow caster; c) he is bleeding from the same wound during the fight with Rey; and d) Rey is shown to know how to use melee weapons because she already has her staff.
Rey beat Kylo thanks to the injury and her existing skill with the staff.
Alright hold on there, explaining Rey's super fast developments by making comparison to Anakin's feats as a boy doesn't really work. Before we see Anakin podrace, the movie establishes his high medichlorian count, establishes the 'one who will bring balance to the force', that he was born through the will of the force without a father and receives some advice from Qui-Gon how to focus his mind. Is that a lot of training? No, but at least its believable within the context of what we are told in the movie. Also Anakin was podracing since he was 5 but never finished a race.
Him blowing up the trade federation space ship was a nod to the original trilogy and how Luke destroyed the Death Star and get this: Anakin did it by sheer luck, it wasnt intentional, he was actually shooting at a bunch of droids, but ended up destroying the ship.
On December 26 2017 08:54 Sermokala wrote: Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
Is there really a point to this kind of hyperbole?
We are talking about a film series where Luke was a desert farm boy who rescued a princess and blew up the death star in the first movie. Heck his father, anakin blew up a trade federation droid control ship... As a literal boy.
Rey flew the falcon took out some tie fighters, and lifted some rocks.
Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to poeople.
Luke didnt fight well useing a lightsaber almost ever and.used it best at the end of three movies and a lot of training. Ray outmatched a trained and.vetrean sith less then a week after finding out lightsabers and the force were a thing. Ray who had before then been a begger child who had only been shown to fly a really fast bike and sled down a hill became a crack pilot capable of outflying kylos personal fighters on a ship she labeled as junk and didnt know how to fly in a matter of minutes. Luke is able to do the sled run beacuse he's bailed out by han and is just the last to die. He gives hope to the other fighters by comparing it to hitting rats with a blaster while on a super fast bike. He doesn't defeat Darth vader ever and only lives because of vader.
Anikin was champion podracer and that shits insane everything he did in the first one was an accident.
There are differences.
Yeah of course these films are important, but if your complaint is that Rey is too powerful, then it feels like you missed out on the general power levels of all the main characters in the trilogy.
At the time of ANH, Luke was a moisture farmer who wanted to joint the Imperial Academy. No part of this back ground tells us that he has even touched an x-wing, or any equivalent fighter. He does make the off hand remark that shooting the death start's heath exhaust port would be like shooting rats, but when you are shooting rats you aren't operating a fighter in three dimensions all the while with an entire death star's worth of TIE fighters trying to kill you. Han did help Luke, but come on, this whole story would be the equivalent of a farmer suddenly flying an F-16 and destroying North Korea with the help of a buddy.
Anakin was a champion podracer at NINE, without any real podracing training (he was a slave), and against older and seasoned opponents. Then as a nine year old boy he manages to fly a fighter into space, and "accidentally" destroy the droid control ship.
Plus I don't get the Rey beating kylo thing. TFA establishes that a) the wookie bowcaster is really powerful (it's show several times to blow people off their feet) b) Kylo gets hit directly in the gut by a shot from the bow caster; c) he is bleeding from the same wound during the fight with Rey; and d) Rey is shown to know how to use melee weapons because she already has her staff.
Rey beat Kylo thanks to the injury and her existing skill with the staff.
In what universe does staff fighting translate to a lazersword. They used the same fighting expert to train both to fight on an equal level. Finn gets a pass by the military training and the spinny laser thing. If bowcasters are lazer.weapons how do they make people bleed from their still somehow existing gut.
Luke isnt using the xwing that much but high speedboats would tranlate to the trench run in the first movie thats shown. Its not realistic but it doesnt strech past credulity of a girl killing pratorian guard after less then a week.
On December 26 2017 08:54 Sermokala wrote: Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
Is there really a point to this kind of hyperbole?
We are talking about a film series where Luke was a desert farm boy who rescued a princess and blew up the death star in the first movie. Heck his father, anakin blew up a trade federation droid control ship... As a literal boy.
Rey flew the falcon took out some tie fighters, and lifted some rocks.
Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to poeople.
Luke didnt fight well useing a lightsaber almost ever and.used it best at the end of three movies and a lot of training. Ray outmatched a trained and.vetrean sith less then a week after finding out lightsabers and the force were a thing. Ray who had before then been a begger child who had only been shown to fly a really fast bike and sled down a hill became a crack pilot capable of outflying kylos personal fighters on a ship she labeled as junk and didnt know how to fly in a matter of minutes. Luke is able to do the sled run beacuse he's bailed out by han and is just the last to die. He gives hope to the other fighters by comparing it to hitting rats with a blaster while on a super fast bike. He doesn't defeat Darth vader ever and only lives because of vader.
Anikin was champion podracer and that shits insane everything he did in the first one was an accident.
There are differences.
Yeah of course these films are important, but if your complaint is that Rey is too powerful, then it feels like you missed out on the general power levels of all the main characters in the trilogy.
At the time of ANH, Luke was a moisture farmer who wanted to joint the Imperial Academy. No part of this back ground tells us that he has even touched an x-wing, or any equivalent fighter. He does make the off hand remark that shooting the death start's heath exhaust port would be like shooting rats, but when you are shooting rats you aren't operating a fighter in three dimensions all the while with an entire death star's worth of TIE fighters trying to kill you. Han did help Luke, but come on, this whole story would be the equivalent of a farmer suddenly flying an F-16 and destroying North Korea with the help of a buddy.
Anakin was a champion podracer at NINE, without any real podracing training (he was a slave), and against older and seasoned opponents. Then as a nine year old boy he manages to fly a fighter into space, and "accidentally" destroy the droid control ship.
Plus I don't get the Rey beating kylo thing. TFA establishes that a) the wookie bowcaster is really powerful (it's show several times to blow people off their feet) b) Kylo gets hit directly in the gut by a shot from the bow caster; c) he is bleeding from the same wound during the fight with Rey; and d) Rey is shown to know how to use melee weapons because she already has her staff.
Rey beat Kylo thanks to the injury and her existing skill with the staff.
In what universe does staff fighting translate to a lazersword. They used the same fighting expert to train both to fight on an equal level. Finn gets a pass by the military training and the spinny laser thing. If bowcasters are lazer.weapons how do they make people bleed from their still somehow existing gut.
Luke isnt using the xwing that much but high speedboats would tranlate to the trench run in the first movie thats shown. Its not realistic but it doesnt strech past credulity of a girl killing pratorian guard after less then a week.
None of this universe is real (otherwise, torpedoes would not bend into a heat shaft and the fall DOWN into the reactor core of the first death star), so the physics of weapons like the wookie bowcaster are going to work in whatever way the plot requires. In TFA, it is clearly shown that Kylo got hit by one, and is bleeding into the snow when he fights Rey. The point is that the movie's internal logic explains why Kylo was weakened and how it is possible for Rey to beat him.
If Finn gets a pass with the military training and baton, why doesn't Rey's staff offer the same preparation? Plus if you can accept Luke's high speedboat, Rey drives that speed bike of hers and yet her flying the falcon is not plausible?
On December 26 2017 08:54 Sermokala wrote: Well the resistance doesn't have any males in a leadership position other than a mid level officer that can ignore orders and commit mutiny without so much as a negative comment. The first order doesn't have any females in a leadership position other than phasma who apparently doesn't matter and is never given value in the movie.
The movie lacks entirely any strong competent and stable characters. And leaves the movie with an evil side thats not a threat to a good side that effectively is starting from scratch being led by the biggest mary due in the history of fiction. We might as well just refer to all mary sues as rays.
Is there really a point to this kind of hyperbole?
We are talking about a film series where Luke was a desert farm boy who rescued a princess and blew up the death star in the first movie. Heck his father, anakin blew up a trade federation droid control ship... As a literal boy.
Rey flew the falcon took out some tie fighters, and lifted some rocks.
Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to poeople.
Luke didnt fight well useing a lightsaber almost ever and.used it best at the end of three movies and a lot of training. Ray outmatched a trained and.vetrean sith less then a week after finding out lightsabers and the force were a thing. Ray who had before then been a begger child who had only been shown to fly a really fast bike and sled down a hill became a crack pilot capable of outflying kylos personal fighters on a ship she labeled as junk and didnt know how to fly in a matter of minutes. Luke is able to do the sled run beacuse he's bailed out by han and is just the last to die. He gives hope to the other fighters by comparing it to hitting rats with a blaster while on a super fast bike. He doesn't defeat Darth vader ever and only lives because of vader.
Anikin was champion podracer and that shits insane everything he did in the first one was an accident.
There are differences.
Yeah of course these films are important, but if your complaint is that Rey is too powerful, then it feels like you missed out on the general power levels of all the main characters in the trilogy.
At the time of ANH, Luke was a moisture farmer who wanted to joint the Imperial Academy. No part of this back ground tells us that he has even touched an x-wing, or any equivalent fighter. He does make the off hand remark that shooting the death start's heath exhaust port would be like shooting rats, but when you are shooting rats you aren't operating a fighter in three dimensions all the while with an entire death star's worth of TIE fighters trying to kill you. Han did help Luke, but come on, this whole story would be the equivalent of a farmer suddenly flying an F-16 and destroying North Korea with the help of a buddy.
Anakin was a champion podracer at NINE, without any real podracing training (he was a slave), and against older and seasoned opponents. Then as a nine year old boy he manages to fly a fighter into space, and "accidentally" destroy the droid control ship.
Plus I don't get the Rey beating kylo thing. TFA establishes that a) the wookie bowcaster is really powerful (it's show several times to blow people off their feet) b) Kylo gets hit directly in the gut by a shot from the bow caster; c) he is bleeding from the same wound during the fight with Rey; and d) Rey is shown to know how to use melee weapons because she already has her staff.
Rey beat Kylo thanks to the injury and her existing skill with the staff.
In what universe does staff fighting translate to a lazersword. They used the same fighting expert to train both to fight on an equal level. Finn gets a pass by the military training and the spinny laser thing. If bowcasters are lazer.weapons how do they make people bleed from their still somehow existing gut.
Luke isnt using the xwing that much but high speedboats would tranlate to the trench run in the first movie thats shown. Its not realistic but it doesnt strech past credulity of a girl killing pratorian guard after less then a week.
None of this universe is real (otherwise, torpedoes would not bend into a heat shaft and the fall DOWN into the reactor core of the first death star), so the physics of weapons like the wookie bowcaster are going to work in whatever way the plot requires. In TFA, it is clearly shown that Kylo got hit by one, and is bleeding into the snow when he fights Rey. The point is that the movie's internal logic explains why Kylo was weakened and how it is possible for Rey to beat him.
If Finn gets a pass with the military training and baton, why doesn't Rey's staff offer the same preparation? Plus if you can accept Luke's high speedboat, Rey drives that speed bike of hers and yet her flying the falcon is not plausible?
If we acept that then it makes this movie even worse as it was over about a day that kylo recovers from such a wound AND that Ray is able to acend from being able to beat a mortaly wounded sith to being able to beat pratorian guard in about a day without any lightsaber training from luke.
The Falcon is a different class of ship then the Xwing. The falcon is being flown through other ships and through the 3d of space. Lukes use of the xwing is restricted to the trench of the death star which is basicaly a valley that Luke would have flown a speeder bike through.
A shock baton is a one handed weapon that follows the rule of "DON'T LET THE BLADE PART TOUCH YOU FOR THE LOVE OF GOD". The staff is an two handed weapon that you change your grip on a lot depending on whats twisting around or whatever convenient but clearly has no blade part or a section that is death if you touch with any part of you.
throwaway lines to explain these things are a dime a dozen and would have taken less then a minute. It shows a lack of respect for the audience and the property as a whole.
On December 26 2017 11:20 Sermokala wrote: Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to people.
You are underestimating the solubility of the franchise. Star Wars is a widespread phenomenon but it is one general touchstone among many. Children will look towards the MCU/DCU/James Bond/10 other intellectual properties for characters that reflect their own experiences, vulnerabilities, and aspirations. Poor attention to detail and hamfisted attempts to 'update' the material are a common trend among all large franchises. Whether these properties will lose their ineffable value and appeal as a result of boneheaded decisions is more pertinent.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: Well, beyond your original comment about Poe, I don't think you have quite established that the male characters are associated with "feminine traits". Moreover, what you have viewed as "solipsistic" is merely hotheadedness (a very masculine trait) by another name.
Poe's hotheadness is the result of his lack of perspective: the movies explicitly says this three times through Leia's dialogue and Holdo's. Solipsism is the state of being unable to look beyond your own biases and beliefs. This is the prototypical "flaw" of women stretching back to antiquity. Plenty of guys still complain about that now.
Notably this isn't Han Solo's major flaw despite possessing the same character archetype. His great vice is selfishness. He is more than competent in his role, understands the social and economic realities of the galaxy better than Leia and Luke combined, yet won't risk his neck for the greater good unless profit is involved. This is a stereotypical male flaw.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: Same for Kylo, who struggles with emotions common associated with men (anger) - I also do not follow how being emotionally manipulative is a female trait either, since as you have yourself pointed out, Palatine has done all that too.
As I clearly mentioned Kylo's issue isn't anger. That is the byproduct of being indecisive about who he wants to be, which also leads to feelings of helplessness and guilt and . He is emotionally volatile due to personal insecurity, and it's that unpredictability that underpins his latent threat as a character. Through the first two movies, he is not shown to be particularly intimidating in terms of skill or intelligence or ruthlessness. Even his last-minute betrayal of Snoke is rooted in an implausibility: that somehow Snoke can't ferret out his intentions despite literally having telepathy and mentioning how he freely uses it on his apprentice earlier in the same film. I suppose he was too busy yakking it up as a Saturday morning cartoon character to discern it.
Emotional manipulation is the gender-coded trait attributed to women. Palpatine is the crucial exception because he is pretending to be a well-established, noble character to everyone else. Once he reveals his true identity to Anakin, the pretense is dropped.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: Your mentioning of Luke, I think, really stretches the limits of association when you state "Notably a tumultuous past is a running theme is many movies with female leads (Maleficent, Mad Max: Fury Road, etc.)", when this same troupe appears repeatedly with male characters too (Batman).
Luke Skywalker perfectly illustrates my point. The fandom obsesses over his relationship with his father, a man he never knew and barely interacts with throughout 3 films, yet the deaths of his aunt and uncle are an afterthought. ANH doesn't set aside time for him to grieve the real parents who raised him since birth. They only exist to set up the main plot and as a strong motivation for revenge (the Hero's Call is the overriding one), which Luke must overcome in RotJ in order to reject the call of the Dark Side.
In the backstories of most male characters, personal tragedy is used as the catalyst for their journey. The real triumph comes when they transcend their original intentions and commit themselves to a higher calling. Batman rejects eye-for-an-eye morality; Luke forgoes revenge and would rather die than become a Sith.
On December 26 2017 11:20 Sermokala wrote: Hux is again, hardly feminine in nature, since having a grovelling and ultimately cowardly henchman does not require that character to be a woman either. Littlefinger basically set the gold standard for scheming coward.
You left a little relevant fact out: Littlefinger is good at scheming. His whole shtick is being slimy and disrespected while being ahead of the game in other aspects. Hux isn't even good at sucking up to people; the whole point is that people don't know you're doing it. He is the incarnation of why military cultures justified excluding women from the military for millennia...except he's a man who inexplicably became a general.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: I hope you don't mind but I feel like this makes my point (without needing to go on to deal with the rest of the examples you have raised).
"Nuh-uh" isn't a legitimate response.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: As for Holdo and Poe, I have actually had the tragic honor of wasting two years of my life in the military, and maybe it's done differently else where but challenging the position of your commanding officer in public, in the middle of an engagement, is going to get you an immediate dressing down. In combat you follow orders first, and then if you want you can have a discussion after the orders are executed. In Holdo's case, she actually went pretty lightly on Poe. She humored him in public, and when the conversation then became private she told him to shut up. He refused to listen, committed mutiny, and then got shot.
As someone with the tragic honor of being immersed in military culture and knowing high-ranking military personnel for 6 times your experience, my condolences. You must have truly served with a subpar unit if that was the impression you left with.
On December 26 2017 11:20 Sermokala wrote: Its a multi billion dollar property involving almost every significant aspect of our culture. Children look up to these characters to form their identity. Its important to people.
You are underestimating the solubility of the franchise. Star Wars is a widespread phenomenon but it is one general touchstone among many. Children will look towards the MCU/DCU/James Bond/10 other intellectual properties for characters that reflect their own experiences, vulnerabilities, and aspirations. Poor attention to detail and hamfisted attempts to 'update' the material are a common trend among all large franchises. Whether these properties will lose their ineffable value and appeal as a result of boneheaded decisions is more pertinent.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: Well, beyond your original comment about Poe, I don't think you have quite established that the male characters are associated with "feminine traits". Moreover, what you have viewed as "solipsistic" is merely hotheadedness (a very masculine trait) by another name.
Poe's hotheadness is the result of his lack of perspective: the movies explicitly says this three times through Leia's dialogue and Holdo's. Solipsism is the state of being unable to look beyond your own biases and beliefs. This is the prototypical "flaw" of women stretching back to antiquity. Plenty of guys still complain about that now.
Notably this isn't Han Solo's major flaw despite possessing the same character archetype. His great vice is selfishness. He is more than competent in his role, understands the social and economic realities of the galaxy better than Leia and Luke combined, yet won't risk his neck for the greater good unless profit is involved. This is a stereotypical male flaw.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: Same for Kylo, who struggles with emotions common associated with men (anger) - I also do not follow how being emotionally manipulative is a female trait either, since as you have yourself pointed out, Palatine has done all that too.
As I clearly mentioned Kylo's issue isn't anger. That is the byproduct of being indecisive about who he wants to be, which also leads to feelings of helplessness and guilt and . He is emotionally volatile due to personal insecurity, and it's that unpredictability that underpins his latent threat as a character. Through the first two movies, he is not shown to be particularly intimidating in terms of skill or intelligence or ruthlessness. Even his last-minute betrayal of Snoke is rooted in an implausibility: that somehow Snoke can't ferret out his intentions despite literally having telepathy and mentioning how he freely uses it on his apprentice earlier in the same film. I suppose he was too busy yakking it up as a Saturday morning cartoon character to discern it.
Emotional manipulation is the gender-coded trait attributed to women. Palpatine is the crucial exception because he is pretending to be a well-established, noble character to everyone else. Once he reveals his true identity to Anakin, the pretense is dropped.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: Your mentioning of Luke, I think, really stretches the limits of association when you state "Notably a tumultuous past is a running theme is many movies with female leads (Maleficent, Mad Max: Fury Road, etc.)", when this same troupe appears repeatedly with male characters too (Batman).
Luke Skywalker perfectly illustrates my point. The fandom obsesses over his relationship with his father, a man he never knew and barely interacts with throughout 3 films, yet the deaths of his aunt and uncle are an afterthought. ANH doesn't set aside time for him to grieve the real parents who raised him since birth. They only exist to set up the main plot and as a strong motivation for revenge (the Hero's Call is the overriding one), which Luke must overcome in RotJ in order to reject the call of the Dark Side.
In the backstories of most male characters, personal tragedy is used as the catalyst for their journey. The real triumph comes when they transcend their original intentions and commit themselves to a higher calling. Batman rejects eye-for-an-eye morality; Luke forgoes revenge and would rather die than become a Sith.
On December 26 2017 11:20 Sermokala wrote: Hux is again, hardly feminine in nature, since having a grovelling and ultimately cowardly henchman does not require that character to be a woman either. Littlefinger basically set the gold standard for scheming coward.
You left a little relevant fact out: Littlefinger is good at scheming. His whole shtick is being slimy and disrespected while being ahead of the game in other aspects. Hux isn't even good at sucking up to people; the whole point is that people don't know you're doing it. He is the incarnation of why military cultures justified excluding women from the military for millennia...except he's a man who inexplicably became a general.
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: I hope you don't mind but I feel like this makes my point (without needing to go on to deal with the rest of the examples you have raised).
On December 25 2017 18:32 levelping wrote: As for Holdo and Poe, I have actually had the tragic honor of wasting two years of my life in the military, and maybe it's done differently else where but challenging the position of your commanding officer in public, in the middle of an engagement, is going to get you an immediate dressing down. In combat you follow orders first, and then if you want you can have a discussion after the orders are executed. In Holdo's case, she actually went pretty lightly on Poe. She humored him in public, and when the conversation then became private she told him to shut up. He refused to listen, committed mutiny, and then got shot.
As someone with the tragic honor of being immersed in military culture and knowing high-ranking military personnel for 6 times your experience, my condolences. You must have truly served with a subpar unit if that was the impression you left with.
Well if you really want this to be one of those examples versus examples discussion, sure.
Poe's hotheadness is the result of his lack of perspective: the movies explicitly says this three times through Leia's dialogue and Holdo's. Solipsism is the state of being unable to look beyond your own biases and beliefs. This is the prototypical "flaw" of women stretching back to antiquity.
If that's the definition you would like to adopt (and let's agree not to move goal posts here), then not being able to look beyond personal biases and beliefs is a trait that is common in the portrayal of both genders. It encompasses just about everyone in disaster movies that refuse to believe the cataclysm is coming, and other people that refuse to accept the blindingly obvious - I could point you to hundreds of examples, but to limit this to a reasonable number you can consider most of the Male characters in Titanic who insisted that the ship was unsinkable right up until it actually did sink.
Emotional manipulation is the gender-coded trait attributed to women. Palpatine is the crucial exception because he is pretending to be a well-established, noble character to everyone else. Once he reveals his true identity to Anakin, the pretense is dropped.
Emotional manipulation in the context of a romantic relationship? perhaps, that might a female trait.
It isn't exactly romance happening in TLJ though, it is Manipulation in the context of a power relationship. On this bit there are plenty of male characters who have done this. You have the Joke viz Harley Quinn, Little Finger, the comic versions of Lex Luthor and Batman, Scar from the Lion King (literally gets Simba to run away), Hans from Frozen, etc.
In the backstories of most male characters, personal tragedy is used as the catalyst for their journey. The real triumph comes when they transcend their original intentions and commit themselves to a higher calling. Batman rejects eye-for-an-eye morality; Luke forgoes revenge and would rather die than become a Sith.
I really have no idea if this bit is supposed to argue that the troubled past is a male or female troupe, because you seem to try to distinguish "trouble past" for male characters as being a catalyst, but don't mention if this is any different for female characters.
You left a little relevant fact out: Littlefinger is good at scheming. His whole shtick is being slimy and disrespected while being ahead of the game in other aspects. Hux isn't even good at sucking up to people; the whole point is that people don't know you're doing it. He is the incarnation of why military cultures justified excluding women from the military for millennia...except he's a man who inexplicably became a general.
Carter Burke from Aliens, Tom Cruises character in Edge of Tomorrow, that mayor played by stephen fry in the Hobbit, that lawyer from jurassic Park 1, all the turncoat cowards in the Mummy series, heck just in star wars alone, those male trade federation leadership guys that sided with the separatists, the German soldier from Saving Private Ryan who begs for mercy from the Americans, is left off, but comes back and betrays them, Gatson and Le fou in the recent beauty and the beast
"Nuh-uh" isn't a legitimate response.
I am not saying "nuh-uh" I pointing out that given my current answers I don't really see a need to further address your points on Finn and Phasma.
As someone with the tragic honor of being immersed in military culture and knowing high-ranking military personnel for 6 times your experience, my condolences. You must have truly served with a subpar unit if that was the impression you left with.
Go ask any of these high-ranking military personnel whether "military culture" is a substitute in anyway for being enlisted.
Speaking of overtly manipulative assholes: Kevin Spacey in house of cards. Especially as his manipulations mostly spectacularly backfire by the end of season 4 and he has to revert to outright criminal behavior and his wife bails him out numerous times. Yet nobody claims feminism went too far in house of cards, do they?
PS. I'm not saying I think holdo or hux are interesting or well-developed characters, just that feminism has nothing to do with the reason they fail as characters.
On December 26 2017 17:08 Acrofales wrote: Speaking of overtly manipulative assholes: Kevin Spacey in house of cards. Especially as his manipulations mostly spectacularly backfire by the end of season 4 and he has to revert to outright criminal behavior and his wife bails him out numerous times. Yet nobody claims feminism went too far in house of cards, do they?
PS. I'm not saying I think holdo or hux are interesting or well-developed characters, just that feminism has nothing to do with the reason they fail as characters.
Same, there are valid issues with TLJ and its characters, but I have no idea how how Feminism is apparently one of them.
If anything the movie needed more feminism with its poor gender balance and its potrayal of the females inability to deal with poe properly. Women can and should be played as strong evil characters just as much as token minority characters.
On December 26 2017 18:38 Sermokala wrote: If anything the movie needed more feminism with its poor gender balance and its potrayal of the females inability to deal with poe properly. Women can and should be played as strong evil characters just as much as token minority characters.
Why isn't the problem with the way Poe is written?
In TFA he's a good fighter pilot who wants to help his friends and he shoots things. In TLJ, he gets most of his friends killed, has his plane blown up, and then tries to play the role of an Admiral.
Speaking of - where did the rest of the resistance leadership go? Did Greg Grunberg's character die or something.
I actually don't quite understand what the problem would even be if some gender tropes are switched up a little bit (it's not extreme in any case, really) If it's the lack of nuance then that's true, but at the end of the day it's a star wars movie and not some character study. This isn't the new ghostbusters where it actually was jarring.
On December 25 2017 18:58 cLutZ wrote: I think it is beyond dispute that "Resistance" leadership is extremely incompetent, and it seems to me that the director/writer doesn't understand this. Thus, we are supposed to accept that Discount Han Solo was wing because he was dressed down, but really we get nothing because Leia and Purple Hair never earned that.
That is the whole problem of the new movies though. People don't seem to earn their place or power. In Ep 7 Kylo and Rey seem far too strong considering their lack of training (Kylo gets a bit retconning in 8). The existence of the First Order is unearned. 8 just continues that with Purple Hair and Red Hair being commanding officer despite being stupid and emotional. Even Snoke's power remains a mystery because his whole character is. The only people who's position makes sense are these from other movies (Luke) or those who the writers don't understand (Poe, who is appropriately a mid-level officer).
How did the emperor earn his position of power in the original series ? What did you learn about him from the movies ? What was his back story ? They just said "this is the emperor, he is more unpaitient than Vader". Then he shot lightning at Luke... then he found himself at the bottom of a shaft(Btw many people are upset, because Snoke didn't notice the lightsaber movement next to him... But nobody is upset about the "almighty" emperor doing basically the same in the original series). Great character. Snoke is what the emperor was, pretty much exactly. They even existed for the same amount of time in their respective trilogies(a movie and a half).
How are those deaths even comparable? First as you can see in the OT the Emperor doesnt have the power to sense everything, second he is fighting mainly vs Luke, and third it is the climax of the movie when you dont know if Vader will return to the light, you saw a different movie?
People keep saying this as though the Emperor was anything comparable to Snokes because they both didn't have much screen time. That's silly because it misses how the power of the Emperor is built offscreen. For one and a half films, the OT built up the power and competence of the Emperor's subordinates. Tarkin and Darth Vader first- and even the generals around the Death Star conference table are Very Serious. Maybe you have Ozzel to undercut, but that only serves to show that Darth Vader is ruthless. And Veers is Very Serious. Basically, by the time the Emperor first shows up on screen, you are already sold on how bad ass a villain Darth Vader is. So when he bows down to the Emperor and the Emperor seems to have a mystical insight into both Skywalker, the mightiness of Darth Vader transfers to the Emperor. We already know how competent Darth Vader is- and he bows to this Emperor, he must be even more powerful in some way. Every time Darth Vader is raised up, the Emperor is raised up too for when the moment that Vader kneels before him. The storyteller does the leg work with Vader, and the Emperor reaps the benefit (unless the story tricks us with a paper tiger- a wizard of Oz. Invariably, a frustrating experience for the reader, unless done well.)
And then when the Emperor finally gets his moment to shine in Return of the Jedi, he really goes for it. I mean one line really introduces him so well without doing a thing. Darth Vader "The Emperor is less forgiving as I am." This ironic statement is brilliant in character development. Everything we know about Vader has shown that he is the opposite of forgiving. And the Emperor is less tolerant of failure? That's awesome. And the film does nothing to undercut our estimation of Vader and the Emperor.
The Emperor holds Vader's leash. Vader wants to seek out Luke, the Emperor says no. Vader has had free reign for an entire movie, and only Tarkin said no to him in the past. We know what Vader can do- the fact that he is obedient, tells us so much about The Emperor's power over Vader. Then The Emperor proves to be prophetic- he says Luke will come to him ahead of time and he is right. He sets up a trap and it works- He's blowing apart the Rebel fleet without using his own fleet and his legion had at that moment captured all the Rebels. Like Saruman, he had left the inhabitants of the woods out of his calculations, but that's the first and only misstep in his entire plan thus far. And he was almost right about Luke too. I hate when people say they think Return of the Jedi is a weak film. That throne room battle of wills, and battle against self is such a climatic ending to Luke's journey as a Jedi from the first film. Powerful stuff. Last Jedi had already lost me with their cruiser subplot, so by the time we got our nu-Throneroom scene, I resented it for the weak-tea mimicry that it was.
By contrast, Kylo is an interesting conflicted character in Force Awakens, but not a very impressive villain- Vader had controlled rage. Kylo had out of control tantrums. Vader beat Obi Wan, most of the Rebel Starfighters in the trenches, took out the Hoth Base, captured Han, tricked and beat Luke, etc. Force Awakens portrays a conflicted character- a villain at the beginning of his villainous path. Hux and Kylo in the last film were hauled before Snokes as though they were two school boys before the principal. One of my complaints in the last film was that we had no really impressive villain, but I was willing to see where they went with Kylo. But here never had his Rocky training montage. He never manned up. That's fine for Kylo's character. But that means Snokes has to do his own heavy lifting to prove his villainous chops... and he's got nothing. He's got a weak tea version of trap, but none of the prophetic insight of the Emperor, and none of the build up from either of his minions, who continue to behave in less than impressive ways.
The Emperor was already built up because of the commanding figure of Darth Vader that over-shadowed the series. They just needed to add a little more on top for a multiplying effect. Snokes position is unearned, because they were using his subordinates for other purposes and then failed to build up Snokes in any way as compensation. There was little to nothing to multiply.
On December 26 2017 18:38 Sermokala wrote: If anything the movie needed more feminism with its poor gender balance and its potrayal of the females inability to deal with poe properly. Women can and should be played as strong evil characters just as much as token minority characters.
Why isn't the problem with the way Poe is written?
In TFA he's a good fighter pilot who wants to help his friends and he shoots things. In TLJ, he gets most of his friends killed, has his plane blown up, and then tries to play the role of an Admiral.
Speaking of - where did the rest of the resistance leadership go? Did Greg Grunberg's character die or something.
Poe isnt inherently a problem feminism wise but the way the movie has people reacting to poe. They call him dangerous like it's a good thing and refuse to punish him even verbally.
I mean I guess poe commenting on how she doesnt look like much is terrible writing and problematic but the black man is confronted and attacked after not following orders while the white guy commits literal mutiny and no one mentions it again.
If Finn gets a pass with the military training and baton, why doesn't Rey's staff offer the same preparation?
He doesn't. I think it's stupid that they keep him giving him melee weapons. Guns and grenades worked well enough in Rogue One. Give that man a firefight and something to do, something to believe, something to fight for. Tragically underused in this film.
Oh, listening around, I think I'm closing in on a main reason I didn't like Rose as a character beyond line delivery. From another reviewer- she's preachy and inconsistent. I'm not sure about the inconsistent part yet, preachy, yeah. That tracks. When I wanted to add a Serious Idea, I used to throw it in really badly and make tangential preachy subplots or characters. It's like, thanks Hollywood, I'll be sure to fight the 1%ers with vandalism, not abuse or kill cute animals... I'll even do one better and not abuse kids (too soon?)
Regardless of why its there, it's not integrated well at all. Animal abuse is tangential to anything going on in the rest of the plot (themes of the dangers of heroism) and it is dropped immediately anyways. War profiteering is an interesting angle, but is dropped immediately after one destructive ride through town. It's not integrated and so it stands out like a sore thumb. They told us about it once, never showed anything, and then it's like it never happened. I hated the plot for its didactic nature. But it's Rose that believes all those things, and so while I couldn't identify it immediately, she is the preachy character. Finn is just there for the ride. And honestly, her way of righting wrong is really lame. (I just want to punch them in the face. Really?)
I see it differently than falling, because I think the female characters we have, generally, are as weak as the male characters. Note that IMO Kylo and Rey are interesting to me, and I think Kylo in particular has potential to have a good arc as a character that has had an "extended adolescence" which is a common complaint of old people about young people (and remember old people run Hollywood). If they don't complete the arc then my contingent defense of that choice will obviously evaporate, but I think killing Snoke was, at least an exercise of free will akin to the proverbial millennial moving out of the basement.
However, the rest of Falling's critiques of the male characters are true, but just lacking (again IMO) the context, that the Female characters are one-dimensional and suck in similar ways, its just that the director wanted them to be cool, but failed in his execution. I think, for instance, Poe-Purple hair was supposed to be a tale of a hothead and a "bad" leader (that was secretly competent) butting heads and him learning a lesson, but was poorly executed. To be honest, the "mutiny" actually happened in the first scene when all the bombers chose to follow his orders instead of Leia's. It is clear to the viewer that the Rebel leadership structure is fully discredited among the ranks at that time, but the writer/director didn't know it. Finn/Rose both have stories that are so bad that trying to extract a narrative is impossible. General Redhead is a weakling that engenders no respect, and I think that a better script would have revealed that Snoke (who we still no nothing about) wanted it that way because Snoke was jealous with his power and wanted a flunky instead of a person who would question his judgment and/or be a person who could realistically stage a coup (and we see that mutiny/coups are weigh heavily on the mind of this movie).
So, poor writing kind of doomed all the characters and no one seemed to have any gravitas, so the entire script felt unhinged. IMO, the key to IX will be a timeskip, hopefully giving 2 (or all 3) of Poe, Kylo, & Finn a wife and maybe even kids (or pregnant wives which is also good because child actors are usually bad) so we can actually see what these people value and are fighting for. Even Rey with a child would give her context. I don't think the 1 movie can establish enough gravitas while also having a good conclusion, so instead they should go down the, "this is what we fight for" path, which I suppose the Las Vegas city thing was kinda supposed to be about, but I don't really think it accomplished anything at all.
I see it differently than falling, because I think the female characters we have, generally, are as weak as the male characters.
Is that materially different from what I said? I say Finn doesn't get a pass for melee weapons because it bugged me, but it seems to me outside of Kylo, Rey, and Luke most of the characters, male or female are pretty weak. That's what you are saying, I think? I wish they gave something for Finn to do because I liked his story arc in the first film. Icing him for the entire film with a sidequest and an NPC escort mission was a waste of the actor's abilities and the character's potential. I certainly agree that it's in execution that they failed.
In many places I can see or at least guess what they were trying for, but it really, really didn't work for me. Like, I've seen the hard-ass commander vs the cocky/ hotshot pilot done very well before: Colonel Tigh vs Starbuck and/or Apollo amongst others. (The one other thing this movie reminded me of, besides a Frankenstein version of Empire and Return, is a very badly done Battlestar Galactica episode). It's a really neat storyline, but not the way they did it here.
Well, I agree mostly with that. Part of the problem is trying to give both Finn and Poe arcs in a film that is really not about either, where they are not on the same "sidequest". Basically we have a whole movie that has the problem that the end of Phantom Menace had (4 simultaneous endings). In Phantom Menace there was the Lightsaber battle, the droids vs. Jar Jar, the Space battle with goofy Anakin, & the Padme thing all going on at the same time, and none of them seemed important or well developed as a result. The same happened here where Luke & Rey were having a thing, Finn & Rose, The chase/Poe's mutiny, and the Rey-Kylo spirit walking all were going on at once, when any two would have done.
Generally, people still consider IV and V the strongest movies, and a big part of that is that almost no scene in IV is not directly related to what Luke is doing, and in V there is Luke + Han/Leia in the beginning and end, and they temporarily split up for the middle third of the film. Its really hard to execute a film like the current film particularly if its not a crime/heist type movie where people expect all the various parts to come together in the end (and then you DO make them come together).
- I think a time jump is inevitable. You need to allow Leia to die, for one.
- I would really like if they can revisit some of the beats of TFA and TLJ. In TFA we see Rey being dumped by her parents, and in TLJ we see Luke confronting Ben. The latter incident is extra interesting because we are shown those events by an unreliable narrator (Luke) and another narrator who would have reason to lie (Ben). The true sequence of events would be great to see - what if Ben had known that Luke was coming, when Luke "looked" at Ben through the Force he realized that Ben was already taken by Snoke, but also that Luke realized that if he did not kill Ben now the galaxy would see the rise of the First Order - and in the end realized he still could not kill his own nephew. Something like this would flesh out Luke's reasons for hiding on the Island.
- I feel like while Kylo is now the supreme leader, he needs to be something else besides Snoke's replacement. He talked about killing the past, so it would be interesting if they can make Episode IX First Order something which is not simply evil.
- TLJ gave a lot of growth to Kylo, so I would want to see Rey get some love as well. I think that making her a mother is not doable with just one movie, but I think that you can explore her relationship as a lone figure against the other characters who do have family.
On December 25 2017 18:58 cLutZ wrote: I think it is beyond dispute that "Resistance" leadership is extremely incompetent, and it seems to me that the director/writer doesn't understand this. Thus, we are supposed to accept that Discount Han Solo was wing because he was dressed down, but really we get nothing because Leia and Purple Hair never earned that.
That is the whole problem of the new movies though. People don't seem to earn their place or power. In Ep 7 Kylo and Rey seem far too strong considering their lack of training (Kylo gets a bit retconning in 8). The existence of the First Order is unearned. 8 just continues that with Purple Hair and Red Hair being commanding officer despite being stupid and emotional. Even Snoke's power remains a mystery because his whole character is. The only people who's position makes sense are these from other movies (Luke) or those who the writers don't understand (Poe, who is appropriately a mid-level officer).
How did the emperor earn his position of power in the original series ? What did you learn about him from the movies ? What was his back story ? They just said "this is the emperor, he is more unpaitient than Vader". Then he shot lightning at Luke... then he found himself at the bottom of a shaft(Btw many people are upset, because Snoke didn't notice the lightsaber movement next to him... But nobody is upset about the "almighty" emperor doing basically the same in the original series). Great character. Snoke is what the emperor was, pretty much exactly. They even existed for the same amount of time in their respective trilogies(a movie and a half).
How are those deaths even comparable? First as you can see in the OT the Emperor doesnt have the power to sense everything, second he is fighting mainly vs Luke, and third it is the climax of the movie when you dont know if Vader will return to the light, you saw a different movie?
People keep saying this as though the Emperor was anything comparable to Snokes because they both didn't have much screen time. That's silly because it misses how the power of the Emperor is built offscreen. For one and a half films, the OT built up the power and competence of the Emperor's subordinates. Tarkin and Darth Vader first- and even the generals around the Death Star conference table are Very Serious. Maybe you have Ozzel to undercut, but that only serves to show that Darth Vader is ruthless. And Veers is Very Serious. Basically, by the time the Emperor first shows up on screen, you are already sold on how bad ass a villain Darth Vader is. So when he bows down to the Emperor and the Emperor seems to have a mystical insight into both Skywalker, the mightiness of Darth Vader transfers to the Emperor. We already know how competent Darth Vader is- and he bows to this Emperor, he must be even more powerful in some way. Every time Darth Vader is raised up, the Emperor is raised up too for when the moment that Vader kneels before him. The storyteller does the leg work with Vader, and the Emperor reaps the benefit (unless the story tricks us with a paper tiger- a wizard of Oz. Invariably, a frustrating experience for the reader, unless done well.)
And then when the Emperor finally gets his moment to shine in Return of the Jedi, he really goes for it. I mean one line really introduces him so well without doing a thing. Darth Vader "The Emperor is less forgiving as I am." This ironic statement is brilliant in character development. Everything we know about Vader has shown that he is the opposite of forgiving. And the Emperor is less tolerant of failure? That's awesome. And the film does nothing to undercut our estimation of Vader and the Emperor.
The Emperor holds Vader's leash. Vader wants to seek out Luke, the Emperor says no. Vader has had free reign for an entire movie, and only Tarkin said no to him in the past. We know what Vader can do- the fact that he is obedient, tells us so much about The Emperor's power over Vader. Then The Emperor proves to be prophetic- he says Luke will come to him ahead of time and he is right. He sets up a trap and it works- He's blowing apart the Rebel fleet without using his own fleet and his legion had at that moment captured all the Rebels. Like Saruman, he had left the inhabitants of the woods out of his calculations, but that's the first and only misstep in his entire plan thus far. And he was almost right about Luke too. I hate when people say they think Return of the Jedi is a weak film. That throne room battle of wills, and battle against self is such a climatic ending to Luke's journey as a Jedi from the first film. Powerful stuff. Last Jedi had already lost me with their cruiser subplot, so by the time we got our nu-Throneroom scene, I resented it for the weak-tea mimicry that it was.
By contrast, Kylo is an interesting conflicted character in Force Awakens, but not a very impressive villain- Vader had controlled rage. Kylo had out of control tantrums. Vader beat Obi Wan, most of the Rebel Starfighters in the trenches, took out the Hoth Base, captured Han, tricked and beat Luke, etc. Force Awakens portrays a conflicted character- a villain at the beginning of his villainous path. Hux and Kylo in the last film were hauled before Snokes as though they were two school boys before the principal. One of my complaints in the last film was that we had no really impressive villain, but I was willing to see where they went with Kylo. But here never had his Rocky training montage. He never manned up. That's fine for Kylo's character. But that means Snokes has to do his own heavy lifting to prove his villainous chops... and he's got nothing. He's got a weak tea version of trap, but none of the prophetic insight of the Emperor, and none of the build up from either of his minions, who continue to behave in less than impressive ways.
The Emperor was already built up because of the commanding figure of Darth Vader that over-shadowed the series. They just needed to add a little more on top for a multiplying effect. Snokes position is unearned, because they were using his subordinates for other purposes and then failed to build up Snokes in any way as compensation. There was little to nothing to multiply.
The power of both characters is irrelevant when we compare them. As you said their powers are tied to their subordinates. They are the only variables in this equasion. The characters of Snoke and the emperor are almost equally not explained. So we have to make assumptions about them based on their subjects. The both characters themselves did almost nothing until their final showdown. The difference here is that Snoke is not that important to this trylogy as the emperor was for the first one. Yes he is the leader of the new empire, but as it turns out this is not your generic fantasy story and killing the ultimate evil doesn't automatically end the story.
Too bad Snoke is depicted as being uber powerfull by the stuff he does himself while his subordinate is an incompetent, raging, 3X year old that is still full of teenage angst. Until he kills him because, why not... Then he immediatly returns to his raging teenage self again. Why anyone in the first Order actually would follow Kylo (anyone not in his immediate presence at least), is really beyond me.
On December 27 2017 23:08 Velr wrote: Until he kills him because, why not... Then he immediatly returns to his raging teenage self again. Why anyone in the first Order actually would follow Kylo (anyone not in his immediate presence at least), is really beyond me.
The difference here is that Snoke is not that important to this trylogy as the emperor was for the first one. Yes he is the leader of the new empire, but as it turns out this is not your generic fantasy story and killing the ultimate evil doesn't automatically end the story.
Right. So why have him at all? Like, throw him entirely into Kylo's backstory (offscreen, maybe mentioned, maybe flashbacks, that it) and give Kylo more room to just be his own man. Part of what undercuts Kylo's authority is he has to run to big daddy who apparently considers Kylo to be equal to a simpering clown of an officer. As soon as they cut him down, my immediate thought was- his character has no point. They should have left him on the cutting room floor- part of why I think the film is a mess.
@clutz. I agree- there was far too much going on in subplot land. I think part of the problem was upgrading Poe from a minor character to basically one of the mains. I see why- he's a very charismatic dude. But if you give him more space, you suck up oxygen for everyone else... especially when you split the party. Really, Poe and Finn should have gone off together and ditch the preachy Star Wars fangirl that stumbled onto the set. It would make more sense for Poe's maverick arc and he can actually see his plans blow up in front of him as he's captured on the deck of the Dreadnought. Of course that still gives nothing for Finn, but maybe an interesting arc could develop if Finn had a better character to bounce off of.
(The inconvenience of finding no slicer anywhere in the galaxy in a hurry except on Casino Royale planet, which turns into very convenient because the slicer they need and couldn't get anywhere else that just so happens to be in their very prison cell, who can walk out at any time, but chose to walk out then is really starting to bug me now more so than before. Everything about that plot line is so stupid.)
Both militaries have an extremely non-military feel to them. A bunch of aunties are the leaders of the Resistance (since when is Leia Organa a general? She's always been a diplomat), doing absolutely nothing of essence. They have this hotshot pilot, who gets under ten minutes of great flying on screen - and then he disobeys orders, kills a bunch of comrades in the process, gets bitch-slapped by an aging lady, commits mutiny and gets away with it. Even better, while the hotshot pilot is being carried away on a stretcher, said aunties talk how likable he is. We get a glimpse of Ackbar's face, then he dies an anonymous death. This is possibly the greatest Alliance military leader, or at least one of their best naval commanders. In his stead we get Leia, Holdo and that other female commander - and they fit more around a table sipping tea and possibly playing bridge. Certainly not on the bridge of a capital ship and in no fcking way at the top of military leadership.
Then we have the First Order. The actual archvillain of the series, Mr. Kylo Ren, is prone to throwing tantrums and looks like a highschool bully. They have this other military commander, who is even more childish and would've been dead for 10 years if Vader was around. The Empire from the original trilogy had a very disciplined, orderly feel about themselves. Tarkin was a sophisticated sadist; Vader was as intimidating as a villain can be and killed high-ranking officers on a whim; all commanders had a very accomplished look overall, reminiscent of Nazi Wehrmacht in its prime. What we have in TLJ is really disjointed - all the flashy armor stormtroopers, superweapons capable of destroying ships and structures with a few blows (btw, those projectiles are hilariously slow-moving) and a leadership consisting of several teenagers.
The plot consisted mainly of holes and WTF-moments; the whole casino line was in essence useless, besides having a very accessible leftist message.
For some reason both Jedi legends decide to destroy knowledge that has survived a gazillion years and let a (really motivated) young girl become a Jedi all by herself. Combined with the amazing lack of discipline in both the Resistance and First Order, the message of the movie is something like "do whatever you want, you'll get away with it and you need absolutely no education to be great". I really don't buy the idea behind burning the damn books. Lacks depth and credibility.
Another thing that got me "come oooooooooooon!" while watching the movie was the blatant abuse of scenes and themes from the original trilogy. The chase through the crystal caverns at the end was SO much reminiscent of the battle inside the Death Star II in RotJ. But then we had Nien Nunb, Lando, Wedge and a Tycho Celchu to lead half the TIEs on a merry chase. Now we have Chewie piloting the Falcon on his own and Rey vaping three TIEs with a single shot. There were a lot more similar moments; the white stuff on the planet being salt and not snow does NOT help in convincing the audience that it wasn't a Hoth ripoff.
The main upside of the movie was Rey's character, which had some depth to it, unlike pretty much everyone else. Most battle scenes looked great from an aesthetic point of view. The funny animals were cute, too.
The dealbreaker, though, was Benicio del Toro's codeslicer. I REALLY wish he recurs in episode IX, because for his dozen lines and several minutes of screen time was the most believable and charismatic character in all post-Endor movies. A Lando Calrissian on steroids with more charisma and less moral objections. If it wasn't for him, I'd want my money back.
Oh, and Leia surviving in hard vacuum WHILE UNCONSCIOUS (so no control over the Force, at least initially) and the horridly slow bombers dropping free-falling bombs in zero gravity had me more WTF than all Jar Jar Binks moments combined.
For some reason both Jedi legends decide to destroy knowledge that has survived a gazillion years and let a (really motivated) young girl become a Jedi all by herself. Combined with the amazing lack of discipline in both the Resistance and First Order, the message of the movie is something like "do whatever you want, you'll get away with it and you need absolutely no education to be great". I really don't buy the idea behind burning the damn books. Lacks depth and credibility.
I'm pretty sure the books were saved by Rey in the falcon, they show them at the end.
On December 27 2017 23:08 Velr wrote: Until he kills him because, why not... Then he immediatly returns to his raging teenage self again. Why anyone in the first Order actually would follow Kylo (anyone not in his immediate presence at least), is really beyond me.
If Finn gets a pass with the military training and baton, why doesn't Rey's staff offer the same preparation?
He doesn't. I think it's stupid that they keep him giving him melee weapons. Guns and grenades worked well enough in Rogue One. Give that man a firefight and something to do, something to believe, something to fight for. Tragically underused in this film.
Oh, listening around, I think I'm closing in on a main reason I didn't like Rose as a character beyond line delivery. From another reviewer- she's preachy and inconsistent. I'm not sure about the inconsistent part yet, preachy, yeah. That tracks. When I wanted to add a Serious Idea, I used to throw it in really badly and make tangential preachy subplots or characters. It's like, thanks Hollywood, I'll be sure to fight the 1%ers with vandalism, not abuse or kill cute animals... I'll even do one better and not abuse kids (too soon?)
Regardless of why its there, it's not integrated well at all. Animal abuse is tangential to anything going on in the rest of the plot (themes of the dangers of heroism) and it is dropped immediately anyways. War profiteering is an interesting angle, but is dropped immediately after one destructive ride through town. It's not integrated and so it stands out like a sore thumb. They told us about it once, never showed anything, and then it's like it never happened. I hated the plot for its didactic nature. But it's Rose that believes all those things, and so while I couldn't identify it immediately, she is the preachy character. Finn is just there for the ride. And honestly, her way of righting wrong is really lame. (I just want to punch them in the face. Really?)
Answer to the bolded part. I can understand why you can dislike it. But it is a movie designed for children. The didactic part is and should be present on any movie designed for children. I simply enjoyed it through the parts that hit the nostalgic fan that i am and be done with it. I don't have big expectations on the trilogy being good movies for me because i am an adult already, so i adjust my expectations. The trilogy is not being done to push the story forward, but to hit a new generation with Star Wars merchandising right to the face.
No it's actually a good argument because it explains why star wars never had a problem with overly convenient writing. Kids don't care about that at all. Nobody cared in the OT. Now it's all of a sudden a problem. I wonder why that is. I am all for pointing out writing flaws when it's obviously lazy, but i think it's more than stupid to not apply the same standard for the OT as well at that point. Does that mean that every single flaw one can point out falls into that category? No! But a lot of it kinda does.
I never was a big star wars fan because these movies are overhyped to the max. But now hardcore fans are just so ridiculous with their claims and actions (there were petitions to reshoot the movie or make it so it's not canon) that i have to wonder if the obsession isn't going a little bit too far. It's almost like Star Wars the franchise is a religion :/
On December 29 2017 01:38 The_Red_Viper wrote: No it's actually a good argument because it explains why star wars never had a problem with overly convenient writing. Kids don't care about that at all. Nobody cared in the OT. Now it's all of a sudden a problem. I wonder why that is. I am all for pointing out writing flaws when it's obviously lazy, but i think it's more than stupid to not apply the same standard for the OT as well at that point. Does that mean that every single flaw one can point out falls into that category? No! But a lot of it kinda does.
I never was a big star wars fan because these movies are overhyped to the max. But now hardcore fans are just so ridiculous with their claims and actions (there were petitions to reshoot the movie or make it so it's not canon) that i have to wonder if the obsession isn't going a little bit too far. It's almost like Star Wars the franchise is a religion :/
Cut Rose from this film and have Poe be tagging along with Finn the whole time and the movie is instantly better. You eliminate the crap scenes with purple hair and Poe, you eliminate the stupid pointless mutiny, you eliminate all the shoehorned animal cruelty/war profiteering crap, and you have the two characters who work well together actually together.
Also Finn might be a little less annoying and juvenile this way. I can hope at least. Must suck to be the only black main character and your character is an idiotic 13 year old with a crush.
“It’s for children” is definitely not an argument justifying any form of badness. Children aren’t stupid and they don’t benefit from a plot that is stupid. A feel-good plot where no one dies at the end, that’s more akin to what might make it for kids. The OT definitely has that aspect going for it. Jar Jar poop jokes isn’t “kid friendly” as much as it is just bad writing. Same with any plots that are just ridiculously stupid and that are not at all believable as here.
The argument that Star Wars is for kids, ( a multi billion franchise btw), to excuse very bad writing is just stupid, it is not even about SW fans or not, if a movie has bad writing, bad acting, and is full of plot holes, it is just a bad movie, simple as that. SW Rebels is even more childish than these new movies but you can see the clear difference of quality.
On December 29 2017 01:18 Velr wrote: Its designed for children is not an argument.
Good stuff for children isn't obvious or dumb, its just not overly sarcastic/ironic.
The problem also wasn't the message (that only comes up in the totally useless part of the movie) but how hamfisted it was shoved in.
You can disagree wether it was useful, well done, or whatever. That's not what i am argueing about, but why it is there.
Anyways it is not so much about being obvious, dumb, or whatever, but being comprehensible, accessible and blunt while keeping the format free by being delivered very fast. The movie shows you animal abuse. and condemns it. You don't need to drag it out, but it's fine to be there. It sets a few values that a kid can identify as good to the guys he is cheering for. For an adult, it feels cheap because it is, it is done this way to let the kids have fun while giving some morals along the way.
I haven't comented much in the problems the script has, because it does have glaring problems. It also doesn't flesh out plenty of the ideas that i find interesting for star wars which appear in the EU, like arms dealers/scum of the galaxy and jedis/sith holding power leads to imbalance and therefore it results in conflict for balance, but i acknowledge that i see this from the prysm of an adult and hope the movies outside the trilogy will deliver in these grounds (i have little faith in the Han Solo movie tho).
There is one that bothers me tho, that is people complaining about Luke being a "coward".
On December 29 2017 02:47 palexhur wrote: The argument that Star Wars is for kids, ( a multi billion franchise btw), to excuse very bad writing is just stupid, it is not even about SW fans or not, if a movie has bad writing, bad acting, and is full of plot holes, it is just a bad movie, simple as that. SW Rebels is even more childish than these new movies but you can see the clear difference of quality.
If Finn gets a pass with the military training and baton, why doesn't Rey's staff offer the same preparation?
He doesn't. I think it's stupid that they keep him giving him melee weapons. Guns and grenades worked well enough in Rogue One. Give that man a firefight and something to do, something to believe, something to fight for. Tragically underused in this film.
Oh, listening around, I think I'm closing in on a main reason I didn't like Rose as a character beyond line delivery. From another reviewer- she's preachy and inconsistent. I'm not sure about the inconsistent part yet, preachy, yeah. That tracks. When I wanted to add a Serious Idea, I used to throw it in really badly and make tangential preachy subplots or characters. It's like, thanks Hollywood, I'll be sure to fight the 1%ers with vandalism, not abuse or kill cute animals... I'll even do one better and not abuse kids (too soon?)
Regardless of why its there, it's not integrated well at all. Animal abuse is tangential to anything going on in the rest of the plot (themes of the dangers of heroism) and it is dropped immediately anyways. War profiteering is an interesting angle, but is dropped immediately after one destructive ride through town. It's not integrated and so it stands out like a sore thumb. They told us about it once, never showed anything, and then it's like it never happened. I hated the plot for its didactic nature. But it's Rose that believes all those things, and so while I couldn't identify it immediately, she is the preachy character. Finn is just there for the ride. And honestly, her way of righting wrong is really lame. (I just want to punch them in the face. Really?)
Answer to the bolded part. I can understand why you can dislike it. But it is a movie designed for children. The didactic part is and should be present on any movie designed for children. I simply enjoyed it through the parts that hit the nostalgic fan that i am and be done with it. I don't have big expectations on the trilogy being good movies for me because i am an adult already, so i adjust my expectations. The trilogy is not being done to push the story forward, but to hit a new generation with Star Wars merchandising right to the face.
and @RedViper I think you are wrong on both counts. Must be didactic? Says who? This is exactly what led to Tom Brown School Days stories. The morals are different, but the mentality is the same- stories are primarily vehicles for teaching, not for storytelling. Also, the idea that kids are dumb and therefore lower effort is required. Both ideas are what Tolkien and Lewis fought against. There's a reason Dr Seuss and Bill Pete stand head and shoulders above the rest of the children's authors- they didn't think children are rubes. I'm convinced that there is a whole slew talentless hacks making low quality stories because they are children. But it's not so much that children can't identify good stories if they are immersed and exposed to them- they just aren't able to articulate why they like what they like. Furthermore, the best children stories are ones that hold up when one comes back as an older and find that it still is a darn good yarn- something that is not true for most modern children films (Smurf and Chipmunk sequels. Give me 80s Don Bluth, please. Disney's films have varied in quality, but most of their films hold up under their own internal logic. For children is not the same as a lower standard of internal consistency.)
I'm not so sure the original Star Wars was intended only for children, and the best children stories hit both children and adults in different ways (think Pixar's Incredibles). I read some article that was claiming that the themes of the movies contrast from the Originals because it's the difference between the hopeful optimism of the Boomers (Lucas gen) and the cynical subversive Gen X. B.S. Well, I mean, true that is what Gen X is know for. But has anyone seen the context that Lucas was making his Star Wars films? I've seen those other sci fi's- bleak for the most part: Zardoz, Logan's Run, Silent Running, the Omega Man, hell even Lucas' own THX 1138 was as bleak as anything. Star Wars entered as an intentional hopeful counterpoint to all the depressing films that were the zeitgeist of the day. It was accessible for children, but not only for children. I think it's a poor defence for a bad story as it essentially cedes the ground that it is an inherently good story, but makes the more cynical claim: it's passable for children because they don't know any better.
I just find it hilarious that noone of you uses the same standard for the OT is all. Personally i don't even agree that stories for children "have to be dumb", but the point is that things made for children have a lot more convenient writing. This starts with fairytales and ends with sunday morning cartoons. Nobody gave a damn when the deathstar could be destroyed in a nonsensical way. Nobody gave a damn when forceghosts were used whenever the plot demanded it but never when it would have been just as useful for various reasons. Nobody gave a damn when the empire got beaten by little teddy bears. Nobody gave a damn that Luke's plan was completely stupid when saving Han. Same for Darth Vader's plan in ESB to get Luke.
On December 29 2017 02:47 palexhur wrote: The argument that Star Wars is for kids, ( a multi billion franchise btw), to excuse very bad writing is just stupid, it is not even about SW fans or not, if a movie has bad writing, bad acting, and is full of plot holes, it is just a bad movie, simple as that. SW Rebels is even more childish than these new movies but you can see the clear difference of quality.
Yeah the OT had quite a bit of bad acting, especially Mark Hamill was really mediocre. Thankfully every new actor has a higher standard these days.
I don't even know why i argue this though, none of the star wars movies is good enough to make it worth it.
"Children are regarded as being at any rate a distinct literary species, and the production of books that cater for their supposedly odd and alien taste has become an industry; almost a heavy one.
This theory does not seem to me to be borne out by the facts. For one thing, there is no literary taste common among all children. ..
We can approach the matter in a different way by drawing up a list of books which, I am told, have been generally liked by the young. I suppose Aesop, the Arabian Nights, Gulliver, Robinson Crusoe, Treasure Island, Peter Rabbit, and The Wind in the Willows would be a reasonable choice. Only the last three were written for children, and those three are read with pleasure by many adults. I, who disliked The Arabian Nights as a child, dislike them still."
Those stories from Greek or Norse mythology, from Homer, from Spenser, or from folklore which children (but by no means all children) read with delight were once the delight of everyone. ...
Even the fairy tale proprement dit was not originally intended for children; it was told and enjoyed in (of all places) the court of Louis XIV. As Professor Tolkien has pointed out, it gravitated to the nursery when it went out of fashion among the grown-ups, just as old-fashioned furniture gravitated to the nursery. ...
Surely it would be less arrogant, and truer to the evidence, to say that the peculiarity of child readers is that they are not peculiear. It is we who are peculiar. Fashions in literary taste come and go among adults, and every period has its own shibboleths. These, when good, do not improve the taste of children, and, when bad, do not corrupt it; for children read only to enjoy. Of course their limited vocabulary and general ignorance make some books unintelligible to them. But apart from that, juvenile taste is simply human taste, going on from age to age, silly with a universal silliness or wise with a universal wisdom, regardless of modes, movements, and literary revolutions."
(Last emphasis mine)
The literary world of today is little interested in the narrative art as such; it is preoccupied with technical novelties and with 'ideas', by which it means not literary, but social or psychological, ideas.
And the conclusion:
It follows that there are now tow very different sorts of 'writers for children'. The wrong sort that believe that children are 'a distinct race'. They carefully 'make up' the tastes of these odd creatures... They dish up not what they like themselves but what that race is supposed to like. Educational and moral, as well as commercial, motives may come in.
The right sort work from the common, universally human, ground they share with the children, and indeed with countless adults. They label their books "For Children" because children are the only market now recognized for the books, they, anyway, want to write.
Excerpts from CS Lewis' On Juvenile Tastes essay. Lots of great insight and criticisms that, I believe just as applicable to the modern film industry for children as it was on the literary industry for children in the 50s.
edit Tearing down a different film, doesn't strengthen any argument on the quality of the film in question. It only continues to concede that the current story is of low quality and then reveal that you had a pretty low view of the first films.
Do you trust the writer? Do you believe they are playing by the rules they’ve established? When something implausible happens, this creates tension. Not tension in the story, but tension in the viewer. How you resolve that tension depends on how much you trust the storyteller. Do you question the veracity of the story, or do you question what you think you know about the world of the story? Did they make a mistake, or are you not giving them enough credit?
This trust becomes really important when the audience is presented with something that doesn’t seem to follow naturally. Maybe it’s a plot hole. Maybe not. But something jumps out at the viewer. Hey! This character isn’t acting according to their stated goals, therefore…
A: …I must have missed something earlier. Or maybe this will be explained later. Maybe this will even pay off in a later reveal.
OR:
B: …THIS STORY IS STUPID.
Here’s the thing: It’s the job of the storyteller to create and maintain that trust. Talking about how to build trust is like talking about how to build creativity or enthusiasm. It’s not really something you can force. Let us agree that it’s a lot of work to get a stranger to trust you, and even harder if you’ve already proven untrustworthy in the past.
One thing I find really interesting is how variable our tolerance for plot holes is, even to the point where we can’t agree on what they are or if they matter.
He runs through several different examples of how one thing will bother one person more than another.
Shamus then quotes Tolkien:
Inside [the story], what [the author] relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive Secondary World from outside.
This, Shamus argues is Story Collapse
It’s the point at which you’re ejected from the story and are stuck outside looking in. It’s the Blue Screen of Death of storytelling,
A break in trust brings scrutiny. Scrutiny uncovers more problems. Trying to explain or understand problems leads to more problems and more questions. Eventually it hits some kind of critical mass and we have story collapse. Then we go back and point to all the plot holes we uncovered while we were trying to mentally triage the problems with the story.
Getting back to what Film Crit Hulk was talking about in his article: He suggested that the real problem isn’t plot holes, but thematic or emotional failures. Looking back over games where I really raged out over plot holes, I see they also failed thematically or emotionally. They failed to resonate or ring true.
I’m not saying that logic, continuity, and clarity don’t matter. They do. But if we’re noticing these things it might be a sign the story has already failed us on a more important and fundamental level. This is an idea that I’ve been working on for a few days now. I keep looking over old broken stories and tracing them back to their failure points, looking for the source of the story collapse. It’s an interesting exercise.
I think this is very true. This is the first film I've seen in theatres, when the Story Collapsed on me. I had a very real recognition (not decision, but recognition) that I was enjoying nothing of what I was seeing and that all I could see was a Frankenstein version of Empire and Return- the stitching holding the old, dead stories together were altogether too visible to me. No matter how, I tried to get back into, I really did feel like I was on the outside looking in. They briefly got me back in for the climax, but for most of the middle I was out. For other people, the story never collapsed, their tolerance to such things was different than mine. But I will contend that this film will not age will. Repeat viewings will not be kind to this one in the long run because its flaws are too great.
Yes, the original has flaws; I know it all too well, as I have spent time with my friends picking apart what the original plan for Luke actually was (most of the problems stem from the adhoc nature of the Trilogy- Darth Vader and Anakin were only combined together as characters in between A New Hope and Empire Strikes back. So yes, there are flaws, but Lucas built the trust needed that it remains a strong story to this day (as long as the people obsessed with Special FX steer clear of it. I hate criticisms that amount to: everything is so old. Yes, and black and white films mostly used sound stages. So what?)
Tearing down a different film, doesn't strengthen any argument on the quality of the film in question. It only continues to concede that the current story is of low quality and then reveal that you had a pretty low view of the first films.
Quality is completely relative. It only works when we compare it to something else. So if we accept the premise that all the star wars movies are about the same (let's neglect the prequels right now) then it either means that the OT is overhyped or the sequels are undervalued. Also filmmaking isn't just about "the story", the main plot is only a tiny fraction of what makes a movie a movie. For film a lot of different artistic aspects come together, it's visuals, sound and writing. These have a lot of sub categories. One can argue that the writing is the most important part but this kinda blurrs in filmmaking because other aspects can strengthen the writing a lot (like good performances, good editing, music, whatever really) or to say it differently, all these things work together.
Star Wars movies are fine blockbusters, the OT created a franchise which is a substitute religion for a lot of people and it shows.
The argument that these are movies are for children has been bankrupt ever since Episode I's central plot was about political negotiations for trade routes and/or when Anakin murdered "the women and the children too". Its equally laughable in this movie where a person is thrown into a blender offscreen and parts of his body explode onscreen.
Tearing down a different film, doesn't strengthen any argument on the quality of the film in question. It only continues to concede that the current story is of low quality and then reveal that you had a pretty low view of the first films.
Quality is completely relative. It only works when we compare it to something else. So if we accept the premise that all the star wars movies are about the same (let's neglect the prequels right now) then it either means that the OT is overhyped or the sequels are undervalued. Also filmmaking isn't just about "the story", the main plot is only a tiny fraction of what makes a movie a movie. For film a lot of different artistic aspects come together, it's visuals, sound and writing. These have a lot of sub categories. One can argue that the writing is the most important part but this kinda blurrs in filmmaking because other aspects can strengthen the writing a lot (like good performances, good editing, music, whatever really) or to say it differently, all these things work together.
Star Wars movies are fine blockbusters, the OT created a franchise which is a substitute religion for a lot of people and it shows.
Why would I accept as a premise that the OT and The Last Jedi are of equal quality when it is the very thing that I am arguing against? Saying one thing is of higher quality than another is not the same thing as treating it as a religion. No more than if you claimed the Eye of Aragon was of equal quality to the Lord of the Rings. If I set out to prove that the Eye of Aragon is incompetently told, with no command of the English language and certainly no conception on how to write a metaphor or simile that is not unintentionally funny, the counter to that is not 'you just think Lord of the Rings as your religion.' Step off. That's not an analytical argument, that's a presumptuous ad hominem.
I don't think quality is entirely or even mainly relative. Enjoyment may be, but not quality. That's why I bring up things like Story Collapse- it hinges on the idea of internal consistency. That's something not relative or comparative, except by itself. What are the rules set up in the story and does the story remain consistent in its own rules, or does it have a very good reason to break it.
There's also things like Chekhov's Gun, which I think Force Awakens is now guilty of breaking because of The Last Jedi's lack of delivery.
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."
I would say this is true of Luke's lightsaber, Rey's ancestory, the map to find Luke that Luke left (a central mystery in the first film), the Knights of Ren, Snokes, etc. The Last Jedi decides to crumple up all those promises and throw them away. I don't mind that Rey has no parentage worth knowing... so don't create that question for me. I don't care if we never learn about the lightsaber... so don't make a significant moment in the first film. Leave it on Bespin. It's just straight up bad storytelling to do this sort of thing. I mean, I already thought the map was not a good plot point in the first film, and this undercuts that there was any purpose to it at all. Luke went to die alone. Why would he make a convoluted map hunt on where to find him?
People seem delighted that it goes in unexpected directions, but surprising is not good on its own, only if it is properly set up. I, too, can add surprising things: Space Bunnies! The Force was a figment of everyone's imagination! It was all a dream! Rey was dead the entire time! Kylo Ren is actually Darth Jar Jar Binks! But all of these would be objectively bad because if we look back there were no clues hidden in plain sight (see Patrick Rothfuss' The Princess and Mr Wiffles for this sort of surprise ending done right). This isn't clever subversion, this is just throwing away the plot from the previous film. I've already seen this mistake done over and over in the Bantam years of the EU. I'm not particularly keen on seeing it play out again, where every writer/ director carves their own path and ignores whatever happened before.
Why would I accept as a premise that the OT and The Last Jedi are of equal quality when it is the very thing that I am arguing against? Saying one thing is of higher quality than another is not the same thing as treating it as a religion. No more than if you claimed the Eye of Aragon was of equal quality to the Lord of the Rings. If I set out to prove that the Eye of Aragon is incompetently told, with no command of the English language and certainly no conception on how to write a metaphor or simile that is not unintentionally funny, the counter to that is not 'you just think Lord of the Rings as your religion.' Step off. That's not an analytical argument, that's a presumptuous ad hominem.
I don't think quality is entirely or even mainly relative. Enjoyment may be, but not quality. That's why I bring up things like Story Collapse- it hinges on the idea of internal consistency. That's something not relative or comparative, except by itself. What are the rules set up in the story and does the story remain consistent in its own rules, or does it have a very good reason to break it.
No you misunderstood, i am fully aware that you won't accept the premise, i was merely suggesting that it's not necessarily me dragging down the OT, it could also be the other way around. Though yes realistically it would mean to say that the OT isn't as good as people say it is. That these movies aren't masterpieces and not even close.
I simply haven't seen any real arguments agains the sequels which wouldn't also work on a similar level against the OT. You say that's just me bringing down other movies to defend the new ones, well call it defending or being realistic, idc really. The point is that i think people have a big double standard regarding the old and new movies. Why? Because the old ones have a special place in their consciousness, it created everything and flaws don't matter. It isn't allowed to be "attacked". It just reminds me of religious people to an extent. (especially because a large amount of criticism can be boiled down to people being disappointed in the direction based on preconceived bullet points they had built in their mind)
Quality is definitely relative, if you don't have something superior to compare it to it's simply the best. If you have nothing worse to compare it to it is simply the worst. The standard of "good" and "bad" depends on relative quality, not absolute one. It's not surprising that you don't care about my point that film is more than just writing (and writing is more than just things people criticize TLJ for atm), people never really wanna talk about that.
But as i said before, i am not even sure why i am even arguing this case. I don't think TLJ (just like all the other star wars movies) is particularly great. If you want to argue about the new blade runner instead that would probably be more interesting
I don't see how my arguments could be used against the Originals. The villains are competent and impressive. They set up the power of the Empire in their opening scenes very efficiently rather than undercutting it at every step. The rebel commanders somehow seem competent despite having less screen time. The plotlines are cohesive and sensible. The promises it starts out with are delivered in the end. We don't have time wasting plots because we have surplus characters. The deaths are meaningful- compare Obi Wan vs Luke. (Kill him the first time, or save the ascendancy for the third. Dying thirty seconds after 'See you around, kid' makes the death meaningless.)
The closest I can think is that is that Phasma and Boba Fett are somewhat comparable in their unimpressive deaths, but the OT had the good sense to only make that mistake once. And then the Obi Wan and Vader fight doesn't hold up so well, but I still think it works well narratively- the archetype sacrifice- it's just no longer a spectacle as it no doubt was in the 70's.
And sure, a movie isn't just about writing, but it was so obviously bad to me that it overwhelmed anything else about it as far as I was concerned.
I don't think TLJ (just like all the other star wars movies) is particularly great.
Well, that is what I'm looking for. I still want to like this movie. But the only arguments forthcoming is that the other Star Wars films were also flawed. That's pretty irrelevant to me because I either already like or dislike them, and I have already argued and thought through why I like and dislike each of them, flaws and all. They may not be masterpieces, but they are competently told- something I cannot say of this one.
I'm interested in what makes a story work well, and wherein lies the badness of the story if it seems bad. I just am trying to understand what people liked about this one because the critics rated it so high and a decent number of my friends liked it. So I'm trying to articulate why I didn't like it and hoping to see if I'm missing something. So far not- just people think it's adequate for its flaws, and apparently didn't even care for the first ones.
edit. I am going to see it a second time tonight, so I'll try and set aside my criticisms to try and find what the filmmakers were going for. We'll see how successful that will be.
double edit. Or maybe not tonight. However, it's a mistake to think it's new vs old. I generally liked Force Awakens- my biggest criticism was that it rehashed A New Hope. I was okay with such a safe play, so long as they went in more creative directions in the future. (I don't think we got that with Last Jedi- again Frankenstein Empire/Return). And I very much liked Rogue One. It had its flaws, but I was on board for the ride the entire film. Not so this latest.
On December 29 2017 14:14 karazax wrote: It's kind of pointless to argue with someone who doesn't really like Star Wars in the first place.
I feel like The Red Viper is making a pretty astute point though. People take Star Wars as something well beyond any one movie could satisfy, and as a result you end up with really skewed perspectives. I am not saying that there aren't any legitimate issues with TLJ or the new movies in general (and may valid points are raised here), but when you get people saying "it's worse than jar jar!" "Rey is the worst acted character ever" and "feminist conspiracy"...
You start to wonder how much of these are genuine views, or are they just people trying to articulate their true feelings of disappointment that the good versus evil galaxy that has been an easy flight of fantasy away from our boring/grey one, is no longer offering the same stuff.
The religion comparison isn't too far off the mark - since people show up at church to basically read the same book which has the same message, over and over and over.
I can assure you, it wasn't nuance that was throwing me off. A film that throws- 'oh rich war profiteers are evil we should punch them in the face... but they also make ships for the Resistance too, whaaaat?' Isn't exactly adding much nuance into the Star Wars galaxy. That's all text and no subtext.
And I'm two for three of the new films that I liked, so it's not nostalgia goggles or a religious experience that's throwing me off.
On December 29 2017 17:00 Falling wrote: I can assure you, it wasn't nuance that was throwing me off. A film that throws- 'oh rich war profiteers are evil we should punch them in the face... but they also make ships for the Resistance too, whaaaat?' Isn't exactly adding much nuance into the Star Wars galaxy. That's all text and no subtext.
And I'm two for three of the new films that I liked, so it's not nostalgia goggles or a religious experience that's throwing me off.
Relax, I was not making the above comment against you, and I specifically mentioned that yes you can make many correct observations about the flaws of TLJ (and I literally had your posts in mind - while I don't agree with them I can agree that they are well above the kind of commentary I was discussing).
I'd confess to only just skimming most of your comments, but I also don't think that you made any of the "WORST THAN JAR JAR" comparisons.
Although going your response above, maybe it's an instance of how for all of us that care about Star Wars, it's just a topic that is really quite something else. Which is linked I suppose to my comment to The Red Viper, this stuff has just gone way beyond the movies.
p.s. I am writing the above is the most reflective way possible, and I don't mean to accuse you of being overly emotional or anything. I'm just saying that Star Wars has become such a loaded topic and has definitely gone beyond being movies, and as much as we aspire to have an "objective" discussion (which you are), is this even really possible anymore at this point in the wider context of us as a community?
On December 29 2017 14:14 karazax wrote: It's kind of pointless to argue with someone who doesn't really like Star Wars in the first place.
I feel like The Red Viper is making a pretty astute point though. People take Star Wars as something well beyond any one movie could satisfy, and as a result you end up with really skewed perspectives. I am not saying that there aren't any legitimate issues with TLJ or the new movies in general (and may valid points are raised here), but when you get people saying "it's worse than jar jar!" "Rey is the worst acted character ever" and "feminist conspiracy"...
You start to wonder how much of these are genuine views, or are they just people trying to articulate their true feelings of disappointment that the good versus evil galaxy that has been an easy flight of fantasy away from our boring/grey one, is no longer offering the same stuff.
The religion comparison isn't too far off the mark - since people show up at church to basically read the same book which has the same message, over and over and over.
Yes that feminist conspiracy is just too much, Rey I think is in the same league than Affleck, people who can only act with one "face", if you know what I mean, but as you can see some of the posts , I think the majority are just unsastified with the movie as a whole, I am starting to think that Disney made that movie with that purpose lol, I have read about many people who has gone to the theater a second time trying to be satisfied with TLJ, you know what that means? money, money, money.
On December 29 2017 14:14 karazax wrote: It's kind of pointless to argue with someone who doesn't really like Star Wars in the first place.
I feel like The Red Viper is making a pretty astute point though. People take Star Wars as something well beyond any one movie could satisfy, and as a result you end up with really skewed perspectives. I am not saying that there aren't any legitimate issues with TLJ or the new movies in general (and may valid points are raised here), but when you get people saying "it's worse than jar jar!" "Rey is the worst acted character ever" and "feminist conspiracy"...
You start to wonder how much of these are genuine views, or are they just people trying to articulate their true feelings of disappointment that the good versus evil galaxy that has been an easy flight of fantasy away from our boring/grey one, is no longer offering the same stuff.
The religion comparison isn't too far off the mark - since people show up at church to basically read the same book which has the same message, over and over and over.
I don't think Rey's acting or feminist conspiracies are core complaints about the movie for the vast majority of people who have problems with it. Worse than Jar Jar would be hyperbole to me, but completely subjective. Certainly none of those are included in my criticisms of the film. I don't think it's the worst film ever, but there are lots of flaws. Not because it isn't the same story as the originals. In fact my core complaint against The Force Awakens is that it was too much of a copy of the original trilogy's story line. Wanting something new doesn't mean I wanted a story line that actively works to contradict or ignore what was set up before it though. I wanted a better written original story that expanded on the existing story line.
It's not surprising that some one who doesn't like the original movies doesn't understand the problems that many Star Wars fans have with the new movies. In the end liking or disliking a movie is very subjective and our core thoughts on the series as a whole are very different. There was a period of interesting debate and now it's prolonged into rehashing of the same points that neither side is likely to change their mind on.
Finally watched this movie and I must say I'm really surprised by the negativity in here. I think it was an amazing movie and a million times better than the awful ep 7. Finally an original story and no rehash of old episodes. Acting, Action scenes, music top notch. Finally a good star wars movie again!
Edit: Did I really just read a feminism debate!? What's wrong with you, are movies not allowed to have female main characters??
She's poorly written, akin to a total Mary Sue. She has power with little to no explanation, a fact which was troubling but which was worth suspending disbelief for over the course of the previous E7 movie with the assumption that this movie would explain it. But no, she turns out to just be a generic prodigy and gets everything without really even trying this time around. While E7 had some redeeming character moments like the AT-AT scene, this one had pretty much none of those so on top of everything just working for her there really isn't any reason to care about her character. Also the actor who plays her just isn't very good at the role.
Which isn't nearly as bad as the rest of the female leads, including Space Leia and the command and support staff of the Resistance fleet. Those characters seem to be entirely set up to make Poe look like a chump even though he was doing the right thing in the situation that was presented to him.
Upon rewatch I have to say that the twists were really all this movie had going for it. Once I knew all of them there was nothing really left to this movie but an empty shell of "omg plot twist" moves that just don't hold any value on their own merit. This movie was definitely a severe downgrade from E7 even though that movie as well had a nontrivial quantity of flaws. This is just Expanded Universe writing where every author wants to just do their own thing they think is cool and says a giant "fuck you" to continuity and shared storytelling. One author out of dozens did that part well, and out of two attempts in the Disneyverse one royally fucked it up and the other did an acceptable, if not stellar, job.
How was EP7 better? That movie was a blatant copy-paste from EP4 with huge logic errors like the ridiculousness of the Starkiller base or Rey's absurd powers. Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke.
EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg).
On December 31 2017 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: How was EP7 better? That movie was a blatant copy-paste from EP4 with huge logic errors like the ridiculousness of the Starkiller base or Rey's absurd powers. Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke.
EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg).
Tell me one thing that TFA did better than TLJ
I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship.
The death scene for Han is worlds better then the death scene for Luke. Ones lit with light well and comes after a logical storyline while the other comes out of no where and raises more questions then it answers.
I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Ray shows a ton with her mass rock lifting at the end of the movie and the ability to outfight the red super guard of snoke better then kylo. Luke never trained her with a lightsaber and she was able to outfight him with the kind of one handed weapons they both have.
The Ray + Ren against the red guard was more like the prequels then anything. Over coordinated fight scene without any emotion vs the fight at the end of TFA in the snow and the change in light.
And the ending. In TFA you have this momentous reveal that luke is still around and ray is handing him his lightsaber while the first order has been hit hard but has a big bad waiting in the wings still. TLJ you have a dozen people in the falcon vs a first order that's already established to not have anything that can match ray but apparently is in control of the galaxy maybe who knows.
On December 31 2017 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: How was EP7 better? That movie was a blatant copy-paste from EP4 with huge logic errors like the ridiculousness of the Starkiller base or Rey's absurd powers. Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke.
EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg).
Tell me one thing that TFA did better than TLJ
I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship.
Why watch a movie when you already know the plot? In TLJ I was thrilled the entire time because you couldn't tell how the Rey/Ren dynamic will turn out, Snoke dying was a complete surprise and there were other unexpected plot twists like Rose and Finn getting captured, Poe rebelling against the Resistence leaders etc. In TFA everything was so expected it wasn't exciting at all.
I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction.
Neither of those seem unbelievable. Luke was a very powerful and wise Jedi and had a lot of time studying the force during his exile, possibly with Yoda's help. Don't know what's so unbelievable about him astral projecting himself. As for Leia we have often seen Jedi jumping huge distances, she just does it in space which might even be easier since there's no gravity. What's the big deal?
The rest of your criticism seems extremely nitpicky. If that's all there is to criticize then the movie must have been fucking great.
On December 31 2017 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: How was EP7 better? That movie was a blatant copy-paste from EP4 with huge logic errors like the ridiculousness of the Starkiller base or Rey's absurd powers. Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke.
EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg).
Tell me one thing that TFA did better than TLJ
I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship.
The death scene for Han is worlds better then the death scene for Luke. Ones lit with light well and comes after a logical storyline while the other comes out of no where and raises more questions then it answers.
I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Ray shows a ton with her mass rock lifting at the end of the movie and the ability to outfight the red super guard of snoke better then kylo. Luke never trained her with a lightsaber and she was able to outfight him with the kind of one handed weapons they both have.
The Ray + Ren against the red guard was more like the prequels then anything. Over coordinated fight scene without any emotion vs the fight at the end of TFA in the snow and the change in light.
And the ending. In TFA you have this momentous reveal that luke is still around and ray is handing him his lightsaber while the first order has been hit hard but has a big bad waiting in the wings still. TLJ you have a dozen people in the falcon vs a first order that's already established to not have anything that can match ray but apparently is in control of the galaxy maybe who knows.
Do you seriously want "explanation or introduction" for every single thing that people can do with the force ? It's magic... it does a lot of stuff(telekinesis, mind reading, improves dueling skills, mind control... virgin birth). Now we learned that Leia can create air bubble around her body, is that so unbelievable ?
Luke's death makes sense, if you payed attention. "You don't need Luke Skywalker. What did you think was going to happen here? Did you think I was going to walk out with a laser sword and take down the whole First Order? Go away." - this is what Luke said when Rey asked him for help. Then when everyone gave up, he does exactly that and gives birth to a new hope in the galaxy. The kids at the end were telling that story - how Luke Skywalker stood alone against the whole first order.
I think that it's pretty much established by now that Rey and Kylo are two of the strongest force users. Again quote: "I've seen this raw strength only once before, with Ben Solo. It didn't scare me enough then. It does now." And you are surprised that she moved some rocks ?
And yes the first order controlls the galaxy. They have giant fleet (40 or so star destroyers), while the New Republic tried to demilitarize the galaxy and their small fleets got destroyed by the Starkiller base. I know that it is not said in this movie (except for the first line "The FIRST ORDER reigns"), but that is more of a problem with the first movie - it didn't establish the starting positions well enough.
There's a difference between being surprising in a good way (unexpected, but inevitable in retrospect, if you look at all the clues that you missed) and being surprising in a bad way (equally unexpected, but there's no grounding- it's just random encounters, or everything is leading in a certain direction, but you pull back and do the opposite for the sake of surprise. In retrospect, nothing about the surprise makes any sense- you pulled a fast one on the audience and cheated by neglecting foreshadowing.) It's very easy to be surprising by creating non-sequester moments. Think the ending of Blazing Saddles-hilarious comedy, but nonsensical- or for that matter the ending of Monty Python and the Holy Grail, very surprising indeed, but ultimately unsatisfying. The hard part is making a surprise feel right.
I don't really have a problem with Rey, but I've already detailed my complaints about Rose and Huldo (and for that matter, Hux and Finn and pretty much anyone on the Rebel side.)
I personally don't see how Episode VIII is original. Episode VII repeats IV, but does so competently. (Make biggest source of disappointment when watching for the first time was the introduction of the Starkiller Base.) Episode VIII... I can't get it out of my head how pretty much every scene is either from V or VI, but in random order. It really seems like a Frankenstein plot of the latter Original Trilogy, but with all the stitching showing. It's quite frankly a mess as far as I'm concerned.
Do you seriously want "explanation or introduction" for every single thing that people can do with the force ? It's magic... it does a lot of stuff(telekinesis, mind reading, improves dueling skills, mind control... virgin birth). Now we learned that Leia can create air bubble around her body, is that so unbelievable ?
Sort of. There's another useful idea for what makes a satisfying narrative. Sanderson's First Law of Magic
An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic.
Generally, speaking this is a useful way of thinking about pretty much any sort of special power, whether super hero, magical, psyonics, the Force. If you are using the magic to solve problems, you generally want the reader/ viewer to know what the hero can do before they do it.
In essence, you are giving them a tool set, and the interesting thing is to see how they use that tool set- hopefully in creative ways (fast healing, claws, no aging, etc for Wolverine). The Harry Potter books are usually pretty good about revealing the handful of spells that will be used in that book before they are used. Hell, although it gets silly, it's a little bit like every James Bond scene with Q. It's a little too specific and too on the nose in the Bond series, but the idea is right. Reveal your Chekhov' Guns and proceed to use them in creative ways throughout the film. This is pretty much every magic system designed by authors with engineering/ physics backgrounds - rules based magic
Whereas, if you do not intend to use the magic to solve problems, but only create them, the powers can remain very mysterious and surprising. The old Faerie stories of Middle English are like this, as are the Lord of the Rings.
The big trap writers run into if their heroes use mysterious magic to solve problems, is it starts feeling very convenient, Deus Ex Machina. Run into a problem, go to the grab-bag of mysterious magic and voila, problem solved. Now it can be used without explanation initially and only occasionally, but then you need a pretty good after the fact explanation.
The other thing, you have to watch out for, is handing out too many special powers without considering the consequences. Like, once they have that power and it's fairly easy to use, why would they not use it always? (Which is also why, as cool as the hyperspace destruction was really cool, it really opened up a can of worms by weaponizing hyperspace. Small, automated suicide ships that blast into hyperspace on a collision course should logically be the next military revolution in this universe after that.)
Having said that, I do think there was some intro to cross distance communication that will kill you, or something. (I assume that's what happened to Luke? Too much Force?) Hard to remember with only one viewing.
On December 31 2017 06:20 Sermokala wrote: I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction. Ray shows a ton with her mass rock lifting at the end of the movie and the ability to outfight the red super guard of snoke better then kylo. Luke never trained her with a lightsaber and she was able to outfight him with the kind of one handed weapons they both have.
None of these are logic errors though.
On December 31 2017 07:44 Falling wrote: Having said that, I do think there was some intro to cross distance communication that will kill you, or something. (I assume that's what happened to Luke? Too much Force?) Hard to remember with only one viewing.
Luke mentions earlier in the movie that projecting vast distances would kill the Force user. Another interesting thing to note is that generally every new Star Wars movie has had a new Force power used by at least one of the characters.
Why watch a movie when you already know the plot? In TLJ I was thrilled the entire time because you couldn't tell how the Rey/Ren dynamic will turn out, Snoke dying was a complete surprise and there were other unexpected plot twists like Rose and Finn getting captured, Poe rebelling against the Resistence leaders etc. In TFA everything was so expected it wasn't exciting at all.
To quote South Park, "That's not an idea, that's a twist." Twists are only temporarily interesting.
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On December 31 2017 06:46 Charoisaur wrote: Neither of those seem unbelievable. Luke was a very powerful and wise Jedi and had a lot of time studying the force during his exile, possibly with Yoda's help. Don't know what's so unbelievable about him astral projecting himself. As for Leia we have often seen Jedi jumping huge distances, she just does it in space which might even be easier since there's no gravity. What's the big deal?
The rest of your criticism seems extremely nitpicky. If that's all there is to criticize then the movie must have been fucking great.
Luke's Astral projection as a power is not unbelievable, just bad writing because he dies anyways, so its intentionally making his death less heroic because the "coolest part", him surviving the massive AT-AT onslaught, was not all that physically heroic. We've seen Kylo and Darth stop lasers in the air, if he is powerful enough to have a new power, why not just make him have an upgrade to an old power which also makes his sacrifice more meaningful?
Regarding Leia. Her power is one that would have been useful throughout the series for just about everyone. Luke in his falling scene in Cloud City, The Emperor in ROTJ, dozens of prequels space battles (the could have chased Greiovius outside the ship!). Now Leia, non-Jedi, is the master of a new, extremely powerful skill? Bad writing and implausible.
These are simply easy discontinuities to point out (just like how light speed ramming invalidates all past space battles). The core problem with the movie is that it has a good main plot with Kylo, Rey, & Luke that doesn't get enough time and is broken up too much, because it desires to dedicate a lot of time to two sideplots run by idiots. The Resistance leadership is incompetent, has a bad plan that the writer wants us to pretend would have been a good plan, but we can't because it is truly stupid, yet that conflict between 2 stupid characters gets lots of screentime. Plus there is a second sidequest between two more stupid characters that is not only pointless in the end, but also requires suspension of disbelief (and not in the "this is fantasy way" in the, "within this fantasy I now need to re-suspend disbelief because they make such bad choices" way).
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: Luke's Astral projection as a power is not unbelievable, just bad writing because he dies anyways, so its intentionally making his death less heroic because the "coolest part", him surviving the massive AT-AT onslaught, was not all that physically heroic. We've seen Kylo and Darth stop lasers in the air, if he is powerful enough to have a new power, why not just make him have an upgrade to an old power which also makes his sacrifice more meaningful?
Luke projects himself knowing full well it'll probably cost him his life, as he explains earlier in the film. He knows he can't stop the First Order (as he explains earlier in the film), but he can buy time for the Resistance.
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: Regarding Leia. Her power is one that would have been useful throughout the series for just about everyone. Luke in his falling scene in Cloud City, The Emperor in ROTJ, dozens of prequels space battles (the could have chased Greiovius outside the ship!). Now Leia, non-Jedi, is the master of a new, extremely powerful skill? Bad writing and implausible.
How would Leia pulling herself through vacuum help out in a fight against Grievous?
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: These are simply easy discontinuities to point out (just like how light speed ramming invalidates all past space battles)..
Luke projects himself knowing full well it'll probably cost him his life, as he explains earlier in the film. He knows he can't stop the First Order (as he explains earlier in the film), but he can buy time for the Resistance.
I just don't think it's a very cool way to go. Like, pick one: either he sacrifices himself by physically showing up, or he tricks Kylo with a Force projection (and to make it not too powerful, he needs to be on the salt planet). But his shenanigans buys time and he escapes with the rest. You can even have his Force ascendancy in the third film, but his journey was too abrupt for me to buy this as a satisfying ending. He was still the grumpy 'I won't train anyone', a tree burns down, he gets rapped on the head, and suddenly he's one with the Force? We needed more time for personal revelation for it to be anything but a cheap death.
He's the Henry Gunther of the Star Wars universe. Survive all the trench warfare, the gas, the tanks, the machine guns, and get shot by a random patrol a minute before the Armistice is signed to end WWI. It's a end- as in, doesn't war suck- a sort GRRM death, but it isn't a satisfying death for The Jedi Master of the Star Wars universe.
They tried to have their cake and eat it too, but the two ideas are at odds with each other.
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: Luke's Astral projection as a power is not unbelievable, just bad writing because he dies anyways, so its intentionally making his death less heroic because the "coolest part", him surviving the massive AT-AT onslaught, was not all that physically heroic. We've seen Kylo and Darth stop lasers in the air, if he is powerful enough to have a new power, why not just make him have an upgrade to an old power which also makes his sacrifice more meaningful?
Luke projects himself knowing full well it'll probably cost him his life, as he explains earlier in the film. He knows he can't stop the First Order (as he explains earlier in the film), but he can buy time for the Resistance.
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: Regarding Leia. Her power is one that would have been useful throughout the series for just about everyone. Luke in his falling scene in Cloud City, The Emperor in ROTJ, dozens of prequels space battles (the could have chased Greiovius outside the ship!). Now Leia, non-Jedi, is the master of a new, extremely powerful skill? Bad writing and implausible.
How would Leia pulling herself through vacuum help out in a fight against Grievous?
On December 31 2017 08:24 cLutZ wrote: These are simply easy discontinuities to point out (just like how light speed ramming invalidates all past space battles)..
Uh, okay then.
All previous death stars and star destroyers could be killed from out of visual range by putting LS engines onto asteroids and ramming. Like an unpredictable version of what kicks off the plot in Starship Troopers.
On December 31 2017 04:04 Charoisaur wrote: How was EP7 better? That movie was a blatant copy-paste from EP4 with huge logic errors like the ridiculousness of the Starkiller base or Rey's absurd powers. Most of Rey's powers were shown in ep7, in this movie she didn't really show anything unbelievable and was toyed with by Snoke.
EP 8 did EVERYTHING better than EP7, it was basically EP7 with an original story, without the logic errors and with better action scenes (Rey + Ren against Snoke and his warriors omg).
Tell me one thing that TFA did better than TLJ
I never get this hate for fan service. Explicit in the name is that its giveing the fans what they want. TFA was suppose to be a safe rehash of the good parts of star wars to get the property back on track. It did that extremely well. It used a ton of the points and thems from previous movies but it was suppose to. Starkiller base was ridiculous but it wasn't an insane diversion from anything we've seen before unlike a dreadnought (that doesn't have shields for plot reasons) or snokes super ship.
Why watch a movie when you already know the plot? In TLJ I was thrilled the entire time because you couldn't tell how the Rey/Ren dynamic will turn out, Snoke dying was a complete surprise and there were other unexpected plot twists like Rose and Finn getting captured, Poe rebelling against the Resistence leaders etc. In TFA everything was so expected it wasn't exciting at all.
I mean fucking logic errors with TFA when you have space wizard leia ignoring physics and luke astral projecting himself both without any explanation or introduction.
Neither of those seem unbelievable. Luke was a very powerful and wise Jedi and had a lot of time studying the force during his exile, possibly with Yoda's help. Don't know what's so unbelievable about him astral projecting himself. As for Leia we have often seen Jedi jumping huge distances, she just does it in space which might even be easier since there's no gravity. What's the big deal?
The rest of your criticism seems extremely nitpicky. If that's all there is to criticize then the movie must have been fucking great.
Have you seen Harry potter or Game of thrones? Do you think anyone complained that the movies were worse beacuse they knew what was going to happen at the end? Do you think you don't know the ending of half the movies and TV shows before you even go into the movie? I'm sorry If you're that unimaginative that you can't enjoy things if they're not completely brand new. I like movies with quality I don't care as much about the content as long as its good. And TLJ was objectivly poor in many areas.
You are so unimaginative that you can't imagine how ignoring the vacuum of space and moving around space at will might be effective at solving all the problems you might face.
Its not just that these are terrible ideas but that they damage the property to the point where you can't do things later for no better reason then you think going against peoples expectations is quality in it of itself. No space battles work previously or afterwords when you can just hyperspace ram everything. The sacrifice of the bombers in the start of the movies is pointless now when they could have just sat home and one bomber ship could have taken out the dreadnought no problem.
Having an agreeable power levels that doens't invalidate most of the cast is hugely important. Justice league is shit beacuse super man and the flash are so overpowered compared to everyone else that there isn't a point for them to team up. And the flash only has one of the powers super man does so even he doesn't have a reason to be in the movie.
The hope everyone has by the lie that luke stood alone against the new order and survived is perverse at best. Nitpicky would be asking why the bombers are able to do anything at all considering how long it takes for their bombs to exit the bomber and how easily it would be for the first bomb to blow up the bomb above it and so on until the bomber blows up delivering a single bomb. Nit picking would be asking why the ground around lukes feet was magically unharmed throughout the massive barrage that was leveled in his direction. Nit picking would be why kylo was knocked out by the explosion of the lightsaber much longer then ray. Nit picking would be why the ship they landed on a public beach was still there when they were able to make their escape later on the casino world. Nit picking would be asking why no one discovered the exit tunnel when they were looking around for what the base had. Nit picking would be asking why The first order with all their fleets didn't just jump their ships ahead of the rebels and cornered them. Nit picking would be asking why snoke was unaware of the galaxy power shifting technology was installed on his ship and why it was never used before this movie, nit picking would be insisting that the next movie will have to introduce some way of this technology to be lost forever or else the property can't seriously move forward. Nit picking would be how there is no real legitimacy to the rebellion anymore and there is no way for the rebellion to continue because they just have a dozen or more people on a single tramp freighter. Nit picking would be to breakdown the advanced martial arts techniques that ray uses that would take extensive training to do (that the actor did with a martial arts master) that she learned in a matter of hours compared to the moves she did in the previous movie. Nit picking would be asking why everyones okay with the rolly droid being capable of useing a walker platform to commit murder. Nit picking would be asking how fast DJ got across the room loaded his payment from the first order started up his ship and got out of the way all in time to avoid the hyperspace ram attack.
thats just the shit I could think of off the top of my head.
I think telling an innovative new story is better than telling an old story 1 to 1 with different characters. I'm surprised that this is even arguable and that there are people who had no problem with it.
The point about light-speed ramming invalidating previous space battles is true though, during the movie I thought "If it's so easy to take out a ship why doesn't everyone do it?" Maybe the big ships like the deathstar have too powerful shields to get destroyed by that and it's not worth it to take out usual ships - except like in this scene when it's abandoned anyway. Rey's Martial arts prowess seems illogical too but it was already established that she's very powerful and we saw her training alone (the scene where she was swinging her lightsaber while Luke was watching).
Tfa isnt a 1 to 1 remake dont be a prick. Finn and poe are completly new and the luke is female. Obiwan is han and kylo is nothing like vader.
Tlj isnt an innovative story its an incoherent chase scene that delivers less story development and more destruction to plot then any movie ive ever seen. It values gotcha moments more than good writing and is more poorly edited then suicide squad. It shows contempt for star wars and its fans at everything turn.
I think all my problems with ray would be solved if she had a double sided lightsaber almost like her staff.
On December 31 2017 10:29 Sermokala wrote: The hope everyone has by the lie that luke stood alone against the new order and survived is perverse at best. Nitpicky would be asking why the bombers are able to do anything at all considering how long it takes for their bombs to exit the bomber and how easily it would be for the first bomb to blow up the bomb above it and so on until the bomber blows up delivering a single bomb. Nit picking would be asking why the ground around lukes feet was magically unharmed throughout the massive barrage that was leveled in his direction. Nit picking would be why kylo was knocked out by the explosion of the lightsaber much longer then ray. Nit picking would be why the ship they landed on a public beach was still there when they were able to make their escape later on the casino world. Nit picking would be asking why no one discovered the exit tunnel when they were looking around for what the base had. Nit picking would be asking why The first order with all their fleets didn't just jump their ships ahead of the rebels and cornered them. Nit picking would be asking why snoke was unaware of the galaxy power shifting technology was installed on his ship and why it was never used before this movie, nit picking would be insisting that the next movie will have to introduce some way of this technology to be lost forever or else the property can't seriously move forward. Nit picking would be how there is no real legitimacy to the rebellion anymore and there is no way for the rebellion to continue because they just have a dozen or more people on a single tramp freighter. Nit picking would be to breakdown the advanced martial arts techniques that ray uses that would take extensive training to do (that the actor did with a martial arts master) that she learned in a matter of hours compared to the moves she did in the previous movie. Nit picking would be asking why everyones okay with the rolly droid being capable of useing a walker platform to commit murder. Nit picking would be asking how fast DJ got across the room loaded his payment from the first order started up his ship and got out of the way all in time to avoid the hyperspace ram attack.
thats just the shit I could think of off the top of my head.
maybe you guys should apply for the next movie and do a better job cuz obviously disney investing millions are picking the wrong guys,but here on tl i see great talent,if we combine the people from the walking dead thread and this one i have no doubt we will be in good hands .
On December 31 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote: Finally an original story and no rehash of old episodes.
- Rebel base needs to be evacuated before the bad guys destroy it number 1. - Sith Lord showing scenes to a young Jedi of her allies' fleet getting demolished in hopes of breaking her. - Sith Lord being blinded while about to murder a young Jedi, losing awareness of his surroundings, thus his pupil can betray and kill him. - AT-ATs are slowly approaching a Rebel base on a "white planet", while the Rebels employ shuttles to halt the offensive. - Rebel base needs to be evacuated before the bad guys destroy it number 2. - A young Jedi goes into a dark and mysterious entrance, despite explicitly being told by his Master not to do it. - A young Jedi sees weird shit after stepping into the dark and mysterious entrance. - Yoda. - A Jedi and a Sith are trying to convince each-other why they should join the other side and why their ways are flawed. - Someone wants to be a Jedi, but her master is a grumpy old fella, who behaves like a senile old man and is unwilling to train her, but later changes his mind. - The young, hot-headed Jedi tells her Master that she has got to go, abruptly leaving her Master and ending her training, despite being told that it's a bad move. - Rebels try to infiltrate the bad guys' base in undercover, but they get discovered. - Finn fights someone with a batton. - The Millenium Falcon goes into a place with lots of tight corridors that requires insane maneuvers to navigate, thus the Tie fighters chasing it are being crashed left and right, and the Falcon triumphantly escapes.
Yes, finally an original story and no rehash of old episodes. Were you being sarcastic, or have you never seen a Star Wars movie before?
On December 31 2017 12:57 Charoisaur wrote: Rey's Martial arts prowess seems illogical too but it was already established that she's very powerful and we saw her training alone (the scene where she was swinging her lightsaber while Luke was watching).
All right, I see you were being serious. But this also needs to be addressed: what does it matter if someone swings her lightsaber around?? Everyone needs a coach who can at least tell you what and how to practice. You can't just grab a sword, swing it around randomly for 3 days and become a crusader. Come on now...
Okay some similarities can be found but it's copied from 2 movies instead of one (some of those things happened in ep5 and some in ep6) and in random order so it's not as predictable what will happen. Also the Ren/Rey dynamic was new in that they killed Snoke and then turned against each other again. I definitely did not expect that. Also with Snoke dead already now the next movie is already guaranteed to be different.
Just being different doesn't mean its going to be any better or any worse. Disrupting peoples expectations doesn't mean anything about if its good or not.
Star wars is a rehash of Japanese movies and flash gordan. lots of movies lift their plots from either Shakespeare or the heros journey from antiquity but no one cares about that they just care if its a good movie or not.
I don't mind rehashing things, but when TFA was battered by some for being ANH number 2 while I see TLJ paraded as this brave and daring new movie, when it's ESB/RotJ number 2.... that is annoying.
On a side note: let's not compare being inspired/stealing from some Japanese movie and doing the same thing within your franchise. You try to frame these concerns like the problem here is that Rian stole from a 1925 silent movie.
On December 31 2017 23:26 Charoisaur wrote: Okay some similarities can be found but it's copied from 2 movies instead of one (some of those things happened in ep5 and some in ep6) and in random order so it's not as predictable what will happen. Also the Ren/Rey dynamic was new in that they killed Snoke and then turned against each other again. I definitely did not expect that. Also with Snoke dead already now the next movie is already guaranteed to be different.
The next movie will be done by J.J. Abrams who made TFA, so if you despised TFA so much, then you might be in for some disappointment.
Two weeks late but finally got some time to see it. Feel like this is the type of movie I need to rewatch before giving a final judgement but still, my honest opinion so far
I know this is going to sound weird for such a high pace movie with pretty much constant action but, a few times, I found myself kinda... Bored? A little? The point of view between the different stories is constantly changing but most of the times, all of this is going nowhere. The Finn one felt especially wasted... The movie lacked truly epic moments also, you know, the kind that has you on the edge of your seat... The tag team between Rey and Kylo was nice but that's pretty much the only one I can remember. A few cringe worthy moments (Leia flying in the space and the stupid Rose romance were two of the worst) but ultimately, that was just inconsequential details.
I still enjoyed it though, Adam Driver's acting was really nice, liked the idea of a new start with the end of the Jedi and the Sith, the fact that both Snoke and Rey came from nowhere and all in all, the action and the visuals were cool. Just didn't enjoyed it as much as I thought I would.
"As is now customary with any Star Wars production, the movie is shrouded in secrecy, but they want to shoot scenes around the Rest and Be Thankful," the source said. "Further filming has been penciled in for elsewhere in the country."
"As is now customary with any Star Wars production, the movie is shrouded in secrecy, but they want to shoot scenes around the Rest and Be Thankful," the source said. "Further filming has been penciled in for elsewhere in the country."
After this movie I can say with calm heart that as far as I am concerned Star Wars stopped existing after Disney bought it.
I got 6 movies, 3 good ones, 3 average ones and that will be enough. These shitty fan level products I will put into same shit bag as new Star Trek movies and forget about it existing.
Not as good as JJ Abrams' TFA imo but still decent. Casino planet plot seemed a little gimmicky/throwaway but Benicio del Toro played a really cool character so forgiven. Disney animals were not as annoying as they could have been. Appreciated the nods to the (now defunct) extended universe - Luke's entanglement with the dark side, Leia as a force user. Also some people seem to be upset with Rey's combat prowess - remember she was a loner scavenger on a fringe world for her whole life basically. She still carries that dank metal quarterstaff around with her everywhere did you think that was a walking stick? Seems to me that she's just blended her new force affinity with her previous survival skills. In a land of laser swords and space wizards it doesn't seem that farfetched, no? Solid 8/10 for me, looking forward to the next one.
In a galaxy far far away, space bombers function exactly like WW2 bombers, where their payload is dropped out the bottom of the ship. Which is open to space, because how would you aim?
Movie was very good. I didn't think a starwars movie would surprise me. I was happen to be surprised.
Oh, just popping in to say one more thing. Leia's space flight was badly executed as a scene, but there was nothing particularly unbelievable about Leia having that power.
I suggest you guys watch Rebels S03E02. Kanan does exactly the same thing. He's a trained force user, and he does it consciously, but it's not at all farfetched that Leia can force pull herself back to safety as an unconscious adrenaline-fueled effort kicks in to save her life.
And nobody calls Rebels out on giving their force users unbelievable powers. Only helicopter lightsabers (which are unbelievably stupid) are mentioned as particularly egregious.
Rebels should be called out on having a cast of particularly unremarkable heroes who seem to never be in any real trouble and always deus ex machina their way out of tough situations. The show has surface level appeal and a few interesting concepts are tested there but I can’t call it a good show. It just feels... kiddy. Not like a children’s cartoon, but childish.
On January 02 2018 01:11 LegalLord wrote: Rebels should be called out on having a cast of particularly unremarkable heroes who seem to never be in any real trouble and always deus ex machina their way out of tough situations. The show has surface level appeal and a few interesting concepts are tested there but I can’t call it a good show. It just feels... kiddy. Not like a children’s cartoon, but childish.
On December 31 2017 23:36 Volband wrote: I don't mind rehashing things, but when TFA was battered by some for being ANH number 2 while I see TLJ paraded as this brave and daring new movie, when it's ESB/RotJ number 2.... that is annoying.
On a side note: let's not compare being inspired/stealing from some Japanese movie and doing the same thing within your franchise. You try to frame these concerns like the problem here is that Rian stole from a 1925 silent movie.
On December 31 2017 23:26 Charoisaur wrote: Okay some similarities can be found but it's copied from 2 movies instead of one (some of those things happened in ep5 and some in ep6) and in random order so it's not as predictable what will happen. Also the Ren/Rey dynamic was new in that they killed Snoke and then turned against each other again. I definitely did not expect that. Also with Snoke dead already now the next movie is already guaranteed to be different.
The next movie will be done by J.J. Abrams who made TFA, so if you despised TFA so much, then you might be in for some disappointment.
Honestly, despite have a near identical plot to ANH, I liked TFA better than TLJ. TLJ just had too many plot holes, unnecessary plotlines and characters and the pacing was kind of weird.
TFA was kind of like what you'd get with a 9 figure fanmade movie done well. TLJ was what you'd get with a 9 figure fanmade movie done meh. You can also kind of see how the two movies were clearly written by different people with the disconnects.
On January 01 2018 15:12 Plansix wrote: In a galaxy far far away, space bombers function exactly like WW2 bombers, where their payload is dropped out the bottom of the ship. Which is open to space, because how would you aim?
Movie was very good. I didn't think a starwars movie would surprise me. I was happen to be surprised.
The New Republic has got to be the most incompetent group of idiots to let the First Order develop in the first place and then let them get completely decapitated. They kinda deserve it if they were that dumb.
Bad guys still don't know how to build a superweapon without a superweakness. If anything, they've gotten worse since this hold was fucking ginormous. At least the death star I port was small, and the death star II had an opening because it wasn't finished.
People can breathe in outer space. Except when, y'know, they can't. Also see gravity in zero-G.
Rey wandering into a literal hole. Of evil and stuff. Which doesn't really do much.
Rebels spend hours/ days slowly running away from The First Order. The First Order is slower. All of them are slower. You know, just because.
The actual genius hacker. Where did he go, and how did Rose (who is a top 10 worst romantic subplot device) and Finn manage to find another similarly genius hacker (who is the cliche drunk mercenary type)?
Good guys wandering into secure enemy ship/ facilities with little more than fake mustaches with no issues whatsoever.
After losing most of their shit, the rebels/ Holdo finally turns around and ram the enemy fleet resulting in practically a OHKO.
Autopilot doesn't exist.
Snoke being generally a joke. Extreme discount Palpatine.
So all the Knights of Ren are dead. I had kind of assumed that they were the other Jedi trainees that Kylo took with him, but IDK.
Luke and Kylo: Luke goes from "I sense some good in you dad" for Darth Vader to "oh shit nope no gotta kill this kid" with his freaking nephew.
On December 31 2017 02:49 Charoisaur wrote: Finally an original story and no rehash of old episodes.
- Rebel base needs to be evacuated before the bad guys destroy it number 1. - Sith Lord showing scenes to a young Jedi of her allies' fleet getting demolished in hopes of breaking her. - Sith Lord being blinded while about to murder a young Jedi, losing awareness of his surroundings, thus his pupil can betray and kill him. - AT-ATs are slowly approaching a Rebel base on a "white planet", while the Rebels employ shuttles to halt the offensive. - Rebel base needs to be evacuated before the bad guys destroy it number 2. - A young Jedi goes into a dark and mysterious entrance, despite explicitly being told by his Master not to do it. - A young Jedi sees weird shit after stepping into the dark and mysterious entrance. - Yoda. - A Jedi and a Sith are trying to convince each-other why they should join the other side and why their ways are flawed. - Someone wants to be a Jedi, but her master is a grumpy old fella, who behaves like a senile old man and is unwilling to train her, but later changes his mind. - The young, hot-headed Jedi tells her Master that she has got to go, abruptly leaving her Master and ending her training, despite being told that it's a bad move. - Rebels try to infiltrate the bad guys' base in undercover, but they get discovered. - Finn fights someone with a batton. - The Millenium Falcon goes into a place with lots of tight corridors that requires insane maneuvers to navigate, thus the Tie fighters chasing it are being crashed left and right, and the Falcon triumphantly escapes.
Yes, finally an original story and no rehash of old episodes. Were you being sarcastic, or have you never seen a Star Wars movie before?
On December 31 2017 12:57 Charoisaur wrote: Rey's Martial arts prowess seems illogical too but it was already established that she's very powerful and we saw her training alone (the scene where she was swinging her lightsaber while Luke was watching).
All right, I see you were being serious. But this also needs to be addressed: what does it matter if someone swings her lightsaber around?? Everyone needs a coach who can at least tell you what and how to practice. You can't just grab a sword, swing it around randomly for 3 days and become a crusader. Come on now...
Come on, half of this is normal star wars. That's like arguing that people in a samurai movie use swords and talk about honor. Hell even the rebel parts you listed were just basic plot points for establishing the evil guys as superior, which is a typical part of Black vs White stories. The good Hobbits have to leave the inn, before the evil Nazghul destroy it. I laughed at the white planet part. Many points you make are so generalized that you could argue that episode 2 is a rehash of episode 4.
They just don't explain anything happening in the movie, we just kind of have to sit there and go.. ok guess that happened and fill in the blanks. A real shit movie tbh, I don't want to admit to watching Guardians of the Galaxy 2, but this movie felt more like that load of crap than Star Wars. What a waste of time, I was basically facepalming throughout the entire movie. I was too afraid to laugh out loud or scream angrily at what was presented on screen, since I didn't want to ruin the experience of those who sat close to me.
Snoke was shown after his death where he was just meant to look silly, how can you take anything seriously if the movie doesn't even take it's own main villain seriously. He kind of just felt like the Goblin King in the Hobbit movie, which was also a shit movie and just like that trilogy I probably won't bother finishing it.
Snoke was a joke. Leah somehow possessed the strongest ability ever seen in Star Wars. Luke supposedly had gone through the biggest change ever, but the movie doesn't explain why this would be, why didn't he simply take things into his own hands. Yoda was not Yoda. Yoda is basically the greatest teacher ever, he carries with him 900 years of wisdom. In this film he is reduced to a Bob Marley like character basically saying: "whatever happens, happens man.." Mastery is apparently not a path, it's instead about who you are, or some shit. He might as well have lit a joint right then and there. His words of wisdom is that we as living beings should learn from our mistakes... oki, I guess that can perhaps be considered wise, even though it's something that is said often, but this is in the same trilogy which features Rey as character who makes no mistakes at all, she just waddles through everything victoriously, she even bests Luke in a weird stick fight. She understands Chewbacca language better than Luke, though I missed the part where she was raised by Chewbacca people. She understands Droid language, have no issues being raised on her own, while having a thick accent that ressembles nothing of the place she lived.
I came into this movie being kinda hyped because I was certain they would explain her lineage or something that would explain why she does everything so effortlessly. My theory was that she had been trained by Luke in earlier years, but Luke blanked her memory for some reason and sent her to the desert planet of Jakku?. But nope, Snoke is a nobody, Rey is a nobody, no one is anyone, are we just supposed to feel feelings for people that represent nothing? Luke asks: "Where is Han." and almost immediately the movie clips away and we never get any reaction to the death of Han Solo from Luke the entire movie? are you fcking kiddin' me?
On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote: Snoke was shown after his death where he was just meant to look silly, how can you take anything seriously if the movie doesn't even take it's own main villain seriously. He kind of just felt like the Goblin King in the Hobbit movie, which was also a shit movie and just like that trilogy I probably won't bother finishing it.
What's with this idea that Snoke is the main villain?
On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote: But nope, Snoke is a nobody, Rey is a nobody, no one is anyone, are we just supposed to feel feelings for people that represent nothing?
On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote: Snoke was shown after his death where he was just meant to look silly, how can you take anything seriously if the movie doesn't even take it's own main villain seriously. He kind of just felt like the Goblin King in the Hobbit movie, which was also a shit movie and just like that trilogy I probably won't bother finishing it.
What's with this idea that Snoke is the main villain?
On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote: But nope, Snoke is a nobody, Rey is a nobody, no one is anyone, are we just supposed to feel feelings for people that represent nothing?
Yes, we are.
I don't root for Rey so yeah Snoke might even be the main villain for me. Rey is such a shit character she makes me miss Jar Jar Binks. At least he has flaws... like talking too much.. and sticking his tongue into places you shouldn't stick your tongue. Also he has a home city and history of being hated in this city, then he shows his people that he is worthy by the end of the movie. Weow.. what a great character arc, these new movies have no character arcs, I guess because they want to keep the attention of children. Every 5 min there's a forced laughter feel good moment, just so they can have something completely illogical happen and hope you won't notice, because you were busy laughing or watching some explosion.
All I know is they fucked Luke Skywalker. (I'm glad for the 2 suns peaceful moment i guess. (holy shit they fucked luke)) It was enjoyable for todays standards , but wtf the story. Does Rian Johnson want to intentionally fuck shit up for J.J. Abrams? gl for episode 9, damn man..... damn. It's justa movie. I'm gonna pretend that the books are canon and disney is batshit.
On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote: Snoke was shown after his death where he was just meant to look silly, how can you take anything seriously if the movie doesn't even take it's own main villain seriously. He kind of just felt like the Goblin King in the Hobbit movie, which was also a shit movie and just like that trilogy I probably won't bother finishing it.
What's with this idea that Snoke is the main villain?
On January 03 2018 05:20 ejozl wrote: But nope, Snoke is a nobody, Rey is a nobody, no one is anyone, are we just supposed to feel feelings for people that represent nothing?
Yes, we are.
I don't root for Rey so yeah Snoke might even be the main villain for me. Rey is such a shit character she makes me miss Jar Jar Binks. At least he has flaws... like talking too much.. and sticking his tongue into places you shouldn't stick your tongue. Also he has a home city and history of being hated in this city, then he shows his people that he is worthy by the end of the movie. Weow.. what a great character arc, these new movies have no character arcs, I guess because they want to keep the attention of children. Every 5 min there's a forced laughter feel good moment, just so they can have something completely illogical happen and hope you won't notice, because you were busy laughing or watching some explosion.
Those "forced jokes every 5 minutes" were in the OT as well.
But the OT in general stayed serious during serious moments. TLJ often screws itself by putting in something funny. Luke is the prime example for this with light saber over shoulder, dusting off after atat-barrage, or milking the Alien... And there is basically every Fin scene...
On January 03 2018 22:56 Atreides wrote: The worst was the fucking little birds. Chewbacca should have just ate the cooked ones and we never see another one again.
but think of all the merch they wouldn't be able to sell? /s
On January 03 2018 22:41 Velr wrote: But the OT in general stayed serious during serious moments. TLJ often screws itself by putting in something funny. Luke is the prime example for this with light saber over shoulder, dusting off after atat-barrage, or milking the Alien... And there is basically every Fin scene...
It's funny because i didn't think any of that was bad for the tone of the movie at all. What was kinda bad was bb8 and hux here and there.
I mean sure there was humour in prior Star Wars movies, but it is usually just a character staying true to what he is and he gets kind of a cartoon moment where everyone goes: "That's so Jar Jar.. " and they go back to the main story, or it's a weird, but creative looking alien, reminding you that you are watching Star Wars. Here we have real story line moments undermined completely by some upside down joke only designed to catch you of guard and make you chuckle. It won't be as funny the second time watching it, because you know it's gonna happen, but even then some humour is still completely acceptable to have. Luke throwing the light saber that we have followed throughout Star Wars 2 to now Star Wars 8 is however not just a light joke, it completely goes against his character and it even goes completely against the moment. We left Star Wars 7 seeing Luke with tears in his eyes, clearly this is a huge moment for all Star Wars fans, but we just get a "just kiddin' lol" moment instead. Why is this? is it really worth it to sacrifice 6 films of build up just for a "gotcha" moment? comedians often use jokes that are just designed to surprise, it's an effective way to steal a chuckle, but just because you made the audience laugh in the cinema doesn't make it either acceptable, nor the most effective way to captivate your audience. Heck I laughed at Leia flying, but that does not mean that I think it was a good moment in the film.
Regardless of the humour in the film, the film completely fails to deliver a cohesive story..
I liked it a lot better on second viewing. There were a lot of subplots coalescing. I still think Rose is a terrible character. Snoke was a bad villain. The rise and fall of General Haldo was kind of dumb. The casino scene could've been a lot cooler than it actually was.
But I liked the moral ambiguity theme throughout the movie and I thought the action scenes were typical Star Wars badassery. Seeing Phasma's face was fucking cool. Maybe i'm in the minority but I really like Kylo Ren's character, even if his pants are a little too high.
Oh, and the movie was hilarious. My favorite line was the Jaku diss by Luke
After listening to CP Grey's review, I think I figured out another reason I didn't care about the Rebels. I already knew that their commanders irritated me to no end. But I didn't care about the rank and file... and it's because the movie is actively telling me the rank and file Rebels are irrelevant... because every dramatic moment is undercut by a joke.
I will give it this- the movie had quite a few funny moments. But the problem is the film is allergic to pathos/ tragedy. The main offender is when the Rebel hangar is blown up- tons of Rebels dies, but the film immediately pivots to a funny, funny joke with BB-8 putting himself back together. There's no sense of loss- it's just a huge explosion and then a humorous distraction from the deaths. The film does not tell you to care about the loss of life.
By contrast, we know nothing about Alderaan. It's just a vaguely earth-like planet, but we care about it being destroyed because Leia cares... and Ben Kenobi feels the death of the planet. The movie treats the destruction seriously. Similarly, we get like a minute introduction with Luke's friend Biggs and you hardly know any of the pilots except by facial recognition and call-sign. But their deaths aren't undercut by funny jokes, but are treated seriously- like the deaths matter.
It's actually pretty similar to how Marvel does their stories- lots of spectacle and big action moments and tons of jokes, but very little tragedy and introspection. Even a very cool moment with Luke and R2 projecting the old message is undercut with a joke "that was a cheap shot'. It's funny- I laughed. But anything heartfelt or moving was broken at that point. It would've been a far more powerful scene if it lasted longer and then ended with no dialogue at all, just non-verbal acting. It wouldn't be funny, but you'd get something else, something less forgettable and more lasting.
On January 06 2018 16:46 Falling wrote: After listening to CP Grey's review, I think I figured out another reason I didn't care about the Rebels. I already knew that their commanders irritated me to no end. But I didn't care about the rank and file... and it's because the movie is actively telling me the rank and file Rebels are irrelevant... because every dramatic moment is undercut by a joke.
I will give it this- the movie had quite a few funny moments. But the problem is the film is allergic to pathos/ tragedy. The main offender is when the Rebel hangar is blown up- tons of Rebels dies, but the film immediately pivots to a funny, funny joke with BB-8 putting himself back together. There's no sense of loss- it's just a huge explosion and then a humorous distraction from the deaths. The film does not tell you to care about the loss of life.
By contrast, we know nothing about Alderaan. It's just a vaguely earth-like planet, but we care about it being destroyed because Leia cares... and Ben Kenobi feels the death of the planet. The movie treats the destruction seriously. Similarly, we get like a minute introduction with Luke's friend Biggs and you hardly know any of the pilots except by facial recognition and call-sign. But their deaths aren't undercut by funny jokes, but are treated seriously- like the deaths matter.
It's actually pretty similar to how Marvel does their stories- lots of spectacle and big action moments and tons of jokes, but very little tragedy and introspection. Even a very cool moment with Luke and R2 projecting the old message is undercut with a joke "that was a cheap shot'. It's funny- I laughed. But anything heartfelt or moving was broken at that point. It would've been a far more powerful scene if it lasted longer and then ended with no dialogue at all, just non-verbal acting. It wouldn't be funny, but you'd get something else, something less forgettable and more lasting.
I agree, and I think the primary misstep here is that the movie is self-aware. The original Star Wars movie had no foundation, a nonexistent baseline interest level, and most importantly, no fanbase. It constructed those serious moments because it had to.
This movie, by contrast, has a ton of in-jokes for fans, formulaic slapstick, and a tongue-in-cheek approach such that it constantly reminds you "this is a Star Wars movie". People want more Star Wars movies, but they don't want Star Wars movies that are aware that they're Star Wars movies. It's the same problem I had with the prequels.
On January 01 2018 23:21 Acrofales wrote: Oh, just popping in to say one more thing. Leia's space flight was badly executed as a scene, but there was nothing particularly unbelievable about Leia having that power.
I suggest you guys watch Rebels S03E02. Kanan does exactly the same thing. He's a trained force user, and he does it consciously, but it's not at all farfetched that Leia can force pull herself back to safety as an unconscious adrenaline-fueled effort kicks in to save her life.
And nobody calls Rebels out on giving their force users unbelievable powers. Only helicopter lightsabers (which are unbelievably stupid) are mentioned as particularly egregious.
Like you said, Kanan is a trained force user. It's not the only time in his entire time on screen that he used the force. I think most people would be more accepting of Leia's moment if she ever used the force before or after that. It's a bit jarring that the Emperor couldn't force fly when he was thrown over the edge by Vader, nor was Mace Windu able to force fly to save himself, but untrained Leia can do it while unprotected in space after an explosion, then never bothers to use the force again and no one addresses what happened in any way.
Honestly, Space Leia was just straight up a bad scene, “suspension of disbelief” or no. I mean it doesn’t help but the entire scene just screams cringe.
Also, Rebels isn’t movie-quality material. “It worked in Rebels” just isn’t justification for a bad scene.
You know I can see how the quality of the general story line is up to interpretation but I don't see how anyone can defend the fact that this movie destroyed or neglected so much of what the first movie tried to set up. Does Disney truly not understand the value of a coherent story arch? Do they really think it's good writing to essentially wipe away the countless hours of set up for big reveals for two of the most important characters just like that?
I guess seen as an independent movie a different audience might enjoy this but as a part two of a trilogy I can't understand how they could let this get released.
Is there an overarching plot for where the trilogy goes? You obviously have The Force Awakens as a jumping off point, but is there a place you need to get to, in order to set up J.J. Abrams’ Episode IX?
Rian Johnson:Not really. That’s what’s been really cool about the storytelling process. There is definitely the idea that we know it is a three-movie arc. We know the first film is an introduction, then the middle act is training, meaning challenging the characters. The third is where they all come together and you have to resolve everything.
But I was truly able to write this script without bases to tag, and without a big outline on the wall. That meant I could react to what I felt from The Force Awakens, and what I wanted to see. I could make this movie personal. I could also just take these characters where it felt right and most interesting to take them. I think part of the reason the movie feels like it goes to some unexpected places with the characters is that we had that freedom. If it had all just been planned out and written down beforehand, it might have felt a little more calculated, I suppose.
So if it feels like they are making things up as they go, it's because they are.
I think they made largely the same mistake we did: assuming that because Star Wars OT had three different directors, that it'd work out the same in this case. To be honest I think what we're missing in all this is the creative leadership - i.e. that of George Lucas - that makes the story all come together. As prone to bouts of stupid as he may be, he is the original storyteller of the series and he has a much better sense for how the story can reasonably progress than any other person. And the original directors built upon his creative direction to give life to merely the bare roots of the general overarching plot. I think Abrams or Johnson would both do a fine job if someone else had made the creative core focus of the story but despite the fact that Abrams didn't do a bad job (Johnson definitely did) neither captured the essence of the story so well.
Now, would he be so great right now, years later when he isn't known for being so invested into the making of Star Wars? Not really, which is probably a good reason to retire Star Wars. Money alone makes that less viable.
I would just remind everyone that Han Solo was frozen in carbonite because they didn’t know if Ford would agree to a third movie. I think the whole plan for Revenge of the Jedi was “Another death star and then the Rebels win.” I’ll take a Star Wars movie that surprises me any day, TBH.
I also find it odd everyone takes Kylo telling Rey her parents were no one at face value. He could be telling the truth. But he also could have been full of shit.
On January 10 2018 06:34 LegalLord wrote: Same was true with "I am your father" too though.
They had Ghost Ben to back it up in one of the most hilarious, how did this get by an editor in the script moments. But you might be right. I am sort of cool with Rey just being a hero on her own, without legacy. The force does seem to give characters the ability to sense when a statement is the narrative truth. But that doesn’t explain the shot of the ship flying away from the planet, so my bet is Kylo left some key information out.
But if you listen to JJ talk he clearly is hinting at something special about Rey's heritage. I'm fine with her being a no-name as well but not after strongly hinting at something else. I guess they could make it so that Kylo turns out to be wrong and Snoke still gets his background but I don't see how they would make it relevant after the fact.
Damnit Rian Johson there was so much potential for epicness here but instead you destroy continuity and undermine all of your scenes by making pretty much every character a clown.
The originals didn't have a straight through line- Lucas didn't know if he'd have a sequel film and really hedged his bets with Splinter of a Mind's Eye, the Force Ghost Ben 'depends on your perspective' is one of the great ret-cons to weld together the characters of Darth and Anakin- something not decided until between Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back. However, Stars Wars does not need a sequel. It began a series, so it gave the minimal amount of information to get into the action (the original opening crawl had way too much background info, irrelevant to the action), but it wasn't trying to connect anything.
It tells the archetypal hero's journey. Luke's parentage was not in question- his father is dead; Vader killed him. Vader escapes, and the Empire still exists, so there's sequel bait, in the same way the end of the Matrix teases a possible future film, but both could have ended there and had no sequel and it would have been perfectly satisfying. (And for the Matrix, probably more satisfying without the sequels.)
Force Awakens by contrast starts way too many plot threads that it never resolves- #1 it proposes to restart the Empire vs Rebels plot arc, rather than build off a victorious Rebel Alliance/ Republic- that's a giant question mark inherent in a sequel that must be answered to be satisfying, not just made up on the fly and never answered. Prince Caspian is a great example of how to do this properly.
#2 Skywalker is mentioned 40 times (ref Mark Hamill), begins (macguffin map plot- what was the point of that by the way?) and ends the film... and ends on a literal cliff hangar (only to have the whole map business thrown out completely)... and in the end he gains them 2 minutes to escape, after peacing out for years and not cleaning up his Frankenstein problem- very selfish move. That's not a satisfying end to the Jedi Master who brought back the Jedi from the brink of destruction and brought down the Emperor through self-sacrifice. We needed him to be epic- to burn out, rather than to melt away. Too much of a set up and no follow through- he's just lucky that base went from 'definitely only one entrance' to 'Oops, I guess there was another blocked up entrance' otherwise everyone but Rey would've died... which too be honest, I wouldn't be too mad. I'm ready to toss out the whole incompetent lot- all thirteen of them, lol way to help when it's half past late, Luke- and start over.
#3 Lightsaber connection brought back from the dead (Bespin)- tossed into the garbage bin of the other dead plot lines. Don't bring it up in such an obviously important way- with some crazy connection to Rey, if you don't intend to do anything than toss it over your shoulder.
#4 Parent connection- don't make it such a big deal, if nothing will come of it.
#5 Snoke- again- if the Sith are ended, prophecies fulfilled, an explanation is required- sequels that choose to radically alter the mythos, require explanation intrinsically- at the very least, the chain of Sith master to apprentice was broken...so what gives?
In short, Force Awakens deliberately sets up plot lines, unresolved in a way A New Hope never did. Surprise is not good, if your unrealized teases are more interesting than the reality you present- if your surprise is a surprise because you straight up, crumple up the plot and do something else: Frodo's going to throw Ring into Mordor in Fellowship of the Ring. Nope. Gotcha- the Ring is irrelevant. He's going to throw it away in the Two Towers and toddle off to the Lonely Mountain to fight badgers for awhile and Gandalf will come back, only to die from too much smoke inhalation. Surprise!
It feels more like some of the Bantam wars we used to get in the old EU- authors toss away ideas and even mock certain plot ideas from other authors- an incoherent mess when you put it all together.
In short, Force Awakens deliberately sets up plot lines, unresolved in a way A New Hope never did. Surprise is not good, if your unrealized teases are more interesting than the reality you present- if your surprise is a surprise because you straight up, crumple up the plot and do something else: Frodo's going to throw Ring into Mordor in Fellowship of the Ring. Nope. Gotcha- the Ring is irrelevant. He's going to throw it away in the Two Towers and toddle off to the Lonely Mountain to fight badgers for awhile and Gandalf will come back, only to die from too much smoke inhalation. Surprise!
It feels more like some of the Bantam wars we used to get in the old EU- authors toss away ideas and even mock certain plot ideas from other authors- an incoherent mess when you put it all together.
That is the real point. Surprise has to be earned. Checkov's Gun is a concept for a reason.
I find it bizarre that people seem to want the story of a film to turn out exactly the way they expect.
Anyway it was a decent movie I thought. It didn't add anything good to the canon but didn't really ruin anything either it was just kind of a meh story with really good action scenes and an inappropriate, badly executed sense of humour.
Rogue one was much better. At least it took its source material seriously and used it to make a point.
On January 11 2018 21:43 Jockmcplop wrote: I find it bizarre that people seem to want the story of a film to turn out exactly the way they expect.
Anyway it was a decent movie I thought. It didn't add anything good to the canon but didn't really ruin anything either it was just kind of a meh story with really good action scenes and an inappropriate, badly executed sense of humour.
Rogue one was much better. At least it took its source material seriously and used it to make a point.
7/10
People don't want it to turn out exactly how they want it to happen. they just don't want endless gotcha moments to replace any type of answers to questions that were given in the last movie.
Kylo sure seems to be all over the place. I can get he's divided on what to do but they made that much more acceptable and clear with Darth Vader. What is Kylo even after at this point? Just rage-kill everyone? Also, stating you want the old to burn and then start another order. Right. I felt they could've done a lot more with that and his interaction with Rey.
Isn't the vacuum of space rather deadly? I know it doesn't kill instantly but I really was wondering how they just keep going into space with no ill effect.
If ramming something at light speed (which granted, was an awesome scene) does that much damage, why haven't we seen it before? Throw a ship on autopilot and bam, enemy defeated. Also, why is there no autopilot? At least state that the ship was damaged and that autopilot is offline or something.
Rey being able to duel anyone trained with a lightsaber is still just plain silly. I'd much rather see her struggling to use the Force itself (as telekinesis) but having a serious amount of power with it. That could be explained as a natural thing much more easily than suddenly just having lightsaber skills.
The whole thing with Poe seemed a bit forced and unneeded. It was clear he was popular/liked by many of the rebels and he's headstrong so why exclude him from information like the escape plan that would've prevented him from trying a mutiny? That whole thing just felt weird. I can get that they want to teach the audience that rushing into things is bad but they already achieved that with the loss of the bomber fleet.
Isn't the rebellion pretty much dead if they can all fit on just the Falcon? Sure you got a lot of people out there that prefer you over the bad guys but how are ~50 people going to just overthrow the entire First Order military?
On January 11 2018 21:43 Jockmcplop wrote: I find it bizarre that people seem to want the story of a film to turn out exactly the way they expect.
Anyway it was a decent movie I thought. It didn't add anything good to the canon but didn't really ruin anything either it was just kind of a meh story with really good action scenes and an inappropriate, badly executed sense of humour.
Rogue one was much better. At least it took its source material seriously and used it to make a point.
7/10
People don't want it to turn out exactly how they want it to happen. they just don't want endless gotcha moments to replace any type of answers to questions that were given in the last movie.
i guarantee you, if those questions had been answered in a more expected way, people would've complained about the movie being too predictable.
personally i blame jj abrams way more for trying to set up a whole bunch of bullshit he himself didn't even bother thinking of the answers to, which seems to be a common jj abrams thing, and disney for inexplicably letting these dudes just make up the story on the go without any sort of prior planning. if anything, i think rian johnson did the best he could with what he was given.
One good thing about this movie was the casting. Laura Dern and Del Toro were both brilliant and added depth to their characters just by acting them really well.
Hadn't thought of the possibility that JJ also didn't decide yet what the revelations should be. Regardless, the questions were so open (who are Rey and Snoke?) that he could do pretty much anything there. The real shame is how he ruined potential. No background, lame death, and undermining many other characters set up in movie one with stupid jokes or general absence.
On January 14 2018 01:10 Jockmcplop wrote: One good thing about this movie was the casting. Laura Dern and Del Toro were both brilliant and added depth to their characters just by acting them really well.
Are you high? Neither of them had anything in the movie for them to act well. Laura Dern was a pink haired nothing of a character that refused to have any real scenes in the movie where she wasn't a pink haried nothing and then was killed off beacuse Rain Johnson had even less planning for her then he did phasma.
Del Toro had as much time in the movie as he did in the first Guardians of the galaxy. Hes basicaly phasma level.
JJ put a bunch of questions to be answered later beacuse thats what you do when you have two more movies to shoot that have to link closely to the movie you're making. It was left to Rain johnson to do whatever he wanted with those questions and Rain johnsons answer was "no". No more kylo ren voice or mask no more justifications for rays mary sueness no snoke no republic or empire no phasma no knights of ren no reason for any space fights Just a whole bag of no. Lets build the entire movie up to a climactic fight scene and a huge twist to change the core of the entire properties history, then just insert a whole bunch more of no lets just go back to where we were at the start of the movie.
I was high when I watched it, yeah. You're welcome to your opinion, obviously you hate the movie, but I'm not really bothered about arguing it with you to be honest.
i guarantee you, if those questions had been answered in a more expected way, people would've complained about the movie being too predictable.
I argue that now. It is both a disaster in terms of ripping up plotting, and it is entirely too beholden to recreating the old Empire vs Rebels set up. It's a mess.
The least interesting thing about Force Awakens was recreating the Rebel vs Empire and relaunching yet another Death Star (sorry, Starkiller Base). The better parts of Force Awakens is when it imagined what a galaxy torn apart by civil war would look like- that crashed Star Destroyer was brilliant, not just visually, but also for worldbuilding- visually telling a story of went before. But it seems we mostly got a crappy reboot (or perhaps a choose-your-own adventure, where they run us through the same scenarios, but this time they choose differently? 'This is not going to the way you think', and all that) rather than an interesting continuation. The most interesting parts of this film is Kylo-Rey stuff, which is not borrowed from any of the old films, really.
Plus, nothing about what Force Awakens set-up explains all the Frankenstein cobblings from Empire and Return that dominate this film anyways. The not-Hoth escape at the beginning, the not-Hoth battle at the end (it's salt, see? Thanks, exposition.), the Throne Room with not-Emperor, the Empire chases B-plot escaped from B-plot while Jedi learns (or doesn't learn) from the Jedi Master, these are all unforced (and weak) copies of the V and VI and not at all required by JJ's set-up.
I saw it for a second time in IMAX, and despite agreeing with a lot of the criticism in this thread, still think it's an 8/10 film.
Basically, everything with Kylo, Rey and Luke was so good that it makes up for the weak spots. Luke's final astral projection scene against Kylo and the Empire* is just perfect, and is still echoing around my head.
Even stuff which doesn't make a lot of sense (lightspeed ramming), led to beautiful scenes. Only flat out weakpoints are the casino (which seemed way shorter second time round), and Leia's weird space experience.
On January 14 2018 11:38 LegalLord wrote: Since the question of "dying in space" keeps coming up, I decided to search it to be sure. Here's a decent explanation: Link
The scene is stupid regardless though.
Good link. Agree that it was stupid regardless - it's just a bit of a weird scene, which is clearly meant to be profound or moving. Also, with her hand outstretched and floating in one pose it just looks unnatural.
I never thought a movie could upset me but this one did. Is this how the prequel haters felt? Suddenly I feel so much more sympathy for their point of view..
On January 14 2018 18:50 B.I.G. wrote: I never thought a movie could upset me but this one did. Is this how the prequel haters felt? Suddenly I feel so much more sympathy for their point of view..
despite being bad it's still better than the prequels by far.
I will say this for the prequels: it did have a better stylistic compatibility with Star Wars than the Abrams version. Probably because Lucas was still creatively involved, but nevertheless noticeable. Unfortunately poorly executed, but we have quite a few unfortunate stories of wasted potential running around here.
TLJ is now the highest grossing film of 2017 with $1.236 billion globally. It seems to be winding down, and it's still a ways from The Force Awaken's $2.1 billion. It's likely that Disney were projecting more sales, though they've admitted that all the pent up demand and hype probably drove up TFA's sales way beyond what any sequel would ever make.
On January 15 2018 05:37 LegalLord wrote: Well... we might be unhappy but Disney definitely managed to milk its money’s worth for the pitiful $4 billion it paid for Lucasfilm.
Keep in mind it wasnt just lucasfilm they bought but Skywalker studios the og special effects studio for all the marvel movies as well.
On January 15 2018 05:37 LegalLord wrote: Well... we might be unhappy but Disney definitely managed to milk its money’s worth for the pitiful $4 billion it paid for Lucasfilm.
Keep in mind it wasnt just lucasfilm they bought but Skywalker studios the og special effects studio for all the marvel movies as well.
That would be Industrial Light & Magic, not Skywalker studios.
On January 15 2018 03:44 Sermokala wrote: Let's not get ahead of ourselves space wizard leia was bad but it's not midoclorians and nothing comes close to jar jar.
I was too young to feal strongly about what Star wars should be when the prequels came out but I feel to me what TLJ did to the story arch is similar to the prequels deciding you know what we don't like Vader. Let's give him minimal screen time and make it all about how Padme is awesome.
Cringe worthy lines, bad acting, and understandably annoying needless additions (like Jar Jar) at least didn't damage the overall story line in my humble opinion.
Really damn good movie, one of the best of the series. A big shame for the few scenes that drag it down somewhat (the damn casino bit was 90% horrible).
I love how Luke was treated in the movie. While I have not been much into the EU, to me it did seem to portray Luke as a perfect Jedi, a man who truly mastered himself and became a beacon for a new generation. TLJ does the amazing thing of showing him to still be a flawed man. Yes, he conquered his own inner torments, but fact of the matter is he has no clue about teaching others. He thought Ben would undergo a similar journey and, boy, he was wrong. The scene where he holds the lightsaber above his head was perfect: a moment of weakness and doubt from the master coupled with a scared apprentice. This is where Luke fails because he doesn't know how to deal with the situation. How could he? A great take on the character put in contrast with his amazing control of the Force. Yes, you might be a super mega awesome Jedi but you still are a flawed human being.
The next good bit was the throne room scene. Firstly it established Snoke as a powerful sith lord, taking away my main criticism of the previous movie (a Star Wars movie without a strong Dark Side antagonist is meh at best), a Palpatine wannabe yet way over the top. In short, a proud man who nudged his way into the vacuum of power left after RotJ and now believes he is the true master of the galaxy. His ego is justified in my eyes. The only weak part of the scene was showing the lightsaber nudging. It gave everything away too soon.
Kylo Ren played his hand well: he gave his master what he wanted while furthering his own agenda, exactly the thing sith usually do. He did the same thing with Rey, feeding her doubts and fears like any good dark lord should. It made the turning scene feel appropriate and, in my view, way better than anything Vader ever did to Luke.
Overall I feel like the film tried to play on the usual Star Wars tropes and managed to juggle them quite effectively. Episodes 1-6 showed us cunning, scheming and plotting antagonists. It is a bit of an irony, as Jedi were said to be the rational ones whereas Sith give in to their passions. TLJ turns that around: the antagonists are bordering on crazy and the heroes are fallible people.
If not for the second ending, I actually was about to call it worse than the prequels- the not-Hoth battle at the end, while underwhelming hits effective emotive patterns, even if gets derailed at the end with denied heroism and an underwhelming death. I don't where it leaves me. It might not be a bad film, but it's certainly not a good film, as it consistently fails very basic storytelling- like maybe showing the Imperials firing up their new fangled tracking technology.
Lampshade or foreshadow your new technology with visual scenes rather telling us about it- it feels more contrived otherwise. Lampshade or set-up the fact that the fleet has no fuel for some unknown reason- and that they jumped into the middle of nowhere on their first jump... before they knew they were being tracked... and then proceeded to fly for 18 hours to planet they were trying to get to. Why didn't they jump directly to the planet like every other time in Star Wars? (They didn't know they would be tracked until after they jumped 18 hours out from their target.) There can be a good reason- so give it. Or else the entire thing feels contrived.
But I think Skywalker is portrayed as a coward or incredibly selfish, completely contrary to who he is in the Original. Kenobi and Yoda had the excuse that the entire galaxy was out to kill them. The Emperor had solidified his hold on the Empire and declared the Jedi enemies of the state, wiped out the Jedi and defeated Yoda.
As far as I can tell, Luke peaces out when the Republic is still in a strong position, and instead of fixing his mistake of creating a new Darth Vader (hunting him down and either imprisoning or killing him), he goes off to sulk and die. It makes sense to want to kill Kylo and then peace out, but not before. The Jedi must end? How is he fixing anything while Kylo is running around? The Sith are back buddy- go down in a suicidal attack if you must. How can it get much worse than having two Dark-side users back with the same appetite for planetary destruction? Is it too much to blame the destruction of the Republic and the Resistance, and the death of Han Solo all on Luke? Maybe- but it's hard not to, when you consider how much he's shirking from his own problem.
And then in the end, he distracts for two minutes and then becomes one with the Force... still leaving his mess for everyone else.
Lampshade or foreshadow your new technology with visual scenes rather telling us about it- it feels more contrived otherwise. Lampshade or set-up the fact that the fleet has no fuel for some unknown reason- and that they jumped into the middle of nowhere on their first jump... before they knew they were being tracked... and then proceeded to fly for 18 hours to planet they were trying to get to. Why didn't they jump directly to the planet like every other time in Star Wars? (They didn't know they would be tracked until after they jumped 18 hours out from their target.) There can be a good reason- so give it. Or else the entire thing feels contrived.
My impression was that they were planning on jumping to nowhere (safest place to be, you'd basically have to know the exact coordinates to find them), then broadcast for help and find somewhere safe to go and regroup; it was very much an emergency departure and reasonable that "jump to this pre-defined spot" was the standard operating procedure.
It's unclear to me how Luke is more cowardly or selfish and Kenobi isn't; if it weren't for Leia forcibly dragging Kenobi back into the fight he would have just spent his whole life hanging out on Tatoonie keeping Luke safe without doing anything to fix his own mess of Darth Vader. At least Luke had some actual growth or revelations on the Jedi's responsibilities during that time.
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In general I really like what they did with Luke and the film as a whole (even if some scenes/bits could have been a lot better). It's pretty great to see the film call bullshit on the blockbuster hero and the culture/persona that heroes like Luke (and all the others after him) created. It's also an interesting contrast to The Empire Strikes Back. In ESB as great as the plot was; it always felt like the heroes were doing everything right but the cards were just stacked against them so they ran into trouble. I really like that in TLJ we get to see our heroes make decisions that are believably made, but end up being very poor decisions and that's what leads us to a bleak ending that sets up the next film much like ESB did.
Jumping to nowhere could easily have been above orbit of the planet like normal- I believe it was supposed to be an uncharted planet or something- so why jump to somewhere unknown to the Imperials, but off-centre from that location? It would have made semi more sense if they had tried multiple jumps and got followed (not to mention it would feel more like this tracking thing was actually a thing), build a little more desperation, have something hit the fuel tanks that leaks out rather than blows up? of the cruiser so that it makes sense why they are suddenly running on empty. Everything about the B Plot feels maximally contrived to get that exact scenario so most of the characters will out their tires for most of the movie, until Rey finishes her thing with Luke.
What I mean is that they actually tried- everything was going down, Yoda and Kenobi tried to take out the Sith and failed... and by that point they'd completely lost. All the known galaxy was under the control of the Emperor. They were tapped out of resources. Whereas, at the point in which Luke takes off, the Republic is still in a commanding position (I guess- I'm not going to read the new EU canon this time around). It's the difference between choice and no choice.
As to the last paragraph- it could be interesting, but not the way they did it. I don't think the B plot decisions were believable, but were contrived poor decisions. I also tend to think, they didn't give a good enough cause for Luke to peace out and want to die- again contrived. And most of the decisions were so poor that I don't even like the Resistance anymore. I want them dead and somebody more competent to take their place.
In the new EU cannon post Battle of Javin 4 the empire has a large schism and part of the empires fleet and its people go into the unknown regions to start new. The rebellion gets a flurry of victories and then decisively defeats the rement of the empire in the battle of jakku. after that battle there is a peace treaty and the empire surrenders and leaves into the unknown region (separately from the first group maybe?) The universe then is demilitarized and attempts to create a new republic moving the capital every now and then and building a large fleet to defend against a resurgent empire. This is presumably when the new jedi academy is created and Luke is corrupted by snoke to create kylo ren. Then Luke just peaces out and doesn't feel the need to tell anyone about the super major sith left in the galaxy thats leading the empire forces in exile.
Star killer base destroys the current capital of the republic a few planets near the republic capital and the entire new republic fleet. Snoke takes his fleet that has been percolating in the unknown region and conquers the galaxy that has no military to defend it anymore.
Asumingly now Kylo has control over a massive navy and the universe which is happy to have a stable government again as well as his old buddies from the academy. Ray has a dozen maybe people in a tramp freighter with no training and a few books. But Ray is going to win beacuse TLJ tells us that star wars is an incredibly limited universe and can only ever be empire vs rebels.
after that battle there is a peace treaty and the empire surrenders and leaves into the unknown region (separately from the first group maybe?)
If that's true, that sounds really dumb.
I'd like a proper civil war and a bunch of unaligned factions that broke away from the Empire and the New Republic- you could tell endless stories in a multi-state galaxy. The problem with a resurgent Empire is that you retread the Originals. The problem with a dominant New Republic is you run out of credible threats- as did the old EU until they through the Yuzaan Vong into the mix. The solution is to have the New Republic and the Empire desire total galactic control, but they can never again truly get it. Instead, you have more of a WWI balance of the Great Powers, or whatever. There's just so many more ways you can go- spin out stories forever.
On January 16 2018 08:13 Sermokala wrote: In the new EU cannon post Battle of Javin 4 the empire has a large schism and part of the empires fleet and its people go into the unknown regions to start new. The rebellion gets a flurry of victories and then decisively defeats the rement of the empire in the battle of jakku. after that battle there is a peace treaty and the empire surrenders and leaves into the unknown region (separately from the first group maybe?)
As far as I know that is not quite 100% accurate, but my knowledge comes from second hand information or internet searches.
The SW wiki at least says that it's not quite a fraction of the Empire that flew to the unknown regions, but mostly separate individuals, or small groups. The fractions of the Empire stayed, and lost the war agains the New Republic. They Empire that remained then didn't leave after surrendering, they were disarmed but kept ruling their territories, with several restriction, kinda like post WW2 Japan.
It's at least heavily implied that the First Order formed by gathering all those separate individuals and rose as a new group, instead of just being a fraction of the Empire with a new name.
The main difference is that it makes even less sense that the First Order managed to be so dominant.
I don't see why a group that was born out of an asteroid belt that was "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" would suddenly disarm themselves when the Empire decided to sign a peace treaty. You'd think they'd have developed the idea that "those that have no swords, can still die upon them".
It's not even a proper equivalent to nuclear non-proliferation as not making nukes did NOT equal making less conventional weaponry. And then according to the wiki, the Outer Rim jumps on board the First Order bandwagon because they've been hit by pirates... I kinda think those mothballed fleets would have been helpful to fight pirates. So basically the NR was lawful stupid and maybe the galaxy would be better off with the First Order was in charge. The Empire did nothing wrong.
On January 16 2018 08:13 Sermokala wrote: In the new EU cannon post Battle of Javin 4 the empire has a large schism and part of the empires fleet and its people go into the unknown regions to start new. The rebellion gets a flurry of victories and then decisively defeats the rement of the empire in the battle of jakku. after that battle there is a peace treaty and the empire surrenders and leaves into the unknown region (separately from the first group maybe?)
As far as I know that is not quite 100% accurate, but my knowledge comes from second hand information or internet searches.
The SW wiki at least says that it's not quite a fraction of the Empire that flew to the unknown regions, but mostly separate individuals, or small groups. The fractions of the Empire stayed, and lost the war agains the New Republic. They Empire that remained then didn't leave after surrendering, they were disarmed but kept ruling their territories, with several restriction, kinda like post WW2 Japan.
It's at least heavily implied that the First Order formed by gathering all those separate individuals and rose as a new group, instead of just being a fraction of the Empire with a new name.
The main difference is that it makes even less sense that the First Order managed to be so dominant.
It actually makes perfect sense because we have seen the remnant of the New Republic's leadership. They apparently all live on and keep their entire military on like 5 tightly grouped worlds (all blown up). Then they easily get picked off until they basically have 3 ships worth of people, and send all their bombers on a suicide mission because the pilots follow the orders over a mid-level officer over the Fleet Admirals (likely because the latter are proven incompetents). Then their plan is to slowly drift away from the enemy to a crappy old base because they assume said enemy doesn't have eyes. All this while not using a the super trump card of light speed weapons they have had all along which means that numerical superiority should be useless to their enemies.
On January 16 2018 08:46 Falling wrote: I don't see why a group that was born out of an asteroid belt that was "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" would suddenly disarm themselves when the Empire decided to sign a peace treaty. You'd think they'd have developed the idea that "those that have no swords, can still die upon them".
It's not even a proper equivalent to nuclear non-proliferation as not making nukes did NOT equal making less conventional weaponry. And then according to the wiki, the Outer Rim jumps on board the First Order bandwagon because they've been hit by pirates... I kinda think those mothballed fleets would have been helpful to fight pirates. So basically the NR was lawful stupid and maybe the galaxy would be better off with the First Order was in charge. The Empire did nothing wrong.
It is because the Empire's military was the Republic's military. The Republic built the Deathstar. You see this behavior in war weary governments, like a bunch of Europe post WW 1. The second Republic never got its feet off the ground.
Also, I don't remember why the first order wouldn't just try to bomb the rebel base to smithereens from space. I get that they had Kylo go in personally so he would survive the destruction of the fleet but it seems they could or should have tried space bombing first.
The plot of this movie simply falls apart under closer inspection. I truly don't get why it's so hard for proffessionals to write a story that makes sense...
Also why not just shoot the cruiser first? As if without the fleet the ground forces would be able to go anywhere, rather than quickly and easily be picked off by fighters.
I guess that in the end that's my biggest issue with the movie. I just can't stand a plot driven by people making stupid or illogical decisions. When the scene came where they were announcing the new leader because Leia was incapacitated I already got that "oh god no" feeling. I guess internal strife makes sense when leadership is suddenly incapacitated but this kind of drama doesn't really have a place in star wars IMO.
On January 14 2018 18:50 B.I.G. wrote: I never thought a movie could upset me but this one did. Is this how the prequel haters felt? Suddenly I feel so much more sympathy for their point of view..
despite being bad it's still better than the prequels by far.
Yeah I disagree. I would watch the prequels over this any day. Revenge of the Sith isn't a bad movie either imo and easily superior to TLJ.
I dislike The Phantom Menace and I watched it after TLJ and I would still watch it again over TLJ. Never had so much contempt for a star wars movie until this one. Was only a matter of time, but oh well!
On January 16 2018 08:46 Falling wrote: I don't see why a group that was born out of an asteroid belt that was "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" would suddenly disarm themselves when the Empire decided to sign a peace treaty. You'd think they'd have developed the idea that "those that have no swords, can still die upon them".
It's not even a proper equivalent to nuclear non-proliferation as not making nukes did NOT equal making less conventional weaponry. And then according to the wiki, the Outer Rim jumps on board the First Order bandwagon because they've been hit by pirates... I kinda think those mothballed fleets would have been helpful to fight pirates. So basically the NR was lawful stupid and maybe the galaxy would be better off with the First Order was in charge. The Empire did nothing wrong.
It is because the Empire's military was the Republic's military. The Republic built the Deathstar. You see this behavior in war weary governments, like a bunch of Europe post WW 1. The second Republic never got its feet off the ground.
That didn't seem to stop a small off-shoot of the Empire from building yet another Death Star and a giant fleet in the frontier of the galaxy, outside the industrial core, presumably. It's a theoretical worthy explanation if Star Wars suddenly thought about logistics and shipyards (like the Thrawn trilogy)... something I would actually like, if we move away from super weapons and instead to taking strategic planets- that the galaxy itself becomes an interesting feature to fight back and forth. However this new series is allergic to anything remotely close to explanations, never mind a logical explanation.
Also, the fact that the Starkiller Base could blow up one system, and that destroyed the entire fleet that was supposed to defend however millions of star systems, tells me they basically fired the entire army and just kept a few tanks, a fighter jet, and a sub to protect New York. That's not war weary disarmament WWI, that Germany forcibly disarmed and resorting to building tanks hidden in barns and labelled 'tractors'. Radical pacifism in the face of an enemy that's very energetic about building its super weapons and really big ships.
On January 16 2018 04:42 Falling wrote: If not for the second ending, I actually was about to call it worse than the prequels...
I actually find this really hard to believe, especially since you go on to complain that TLJ fails various basic storytelling benchmarks/rules.
The Prequels were down right horrendous movies from any objective benchmark. The camera was horrible (shot, reverse shot. Tracking walking shot. Back to shot reverse shot).. There are actual, racist caricatures in them (Jar Jar, the jewish slave owner of anakin (watto?), the whole trade federation). They turned Darth Vader, one of the scariest villains of all time, into whiny kid, whiny teenager, and then whiny man, to the point where we needed that last scene in Rogue One to finally redeem him.
The script was so bad that it made Oscar-level actors (Portman, McGregor) look wooden. Hayden had no chance.
On January 16 2018 12:27 B.I.G. wrote: I guess that in the end that's my biggest issue with the movie. I just can't stand a plot driven by people making stupid or illogical decisions. When the scene came where they were announcing the new leader because Leia was incapacitated I already got that "oh god no" feeling. I guess internal strife makes sense when leadership is suddenly incapacitated but this kind of drama doesn't really have a place in star wars IMO.
To be honest I feel like slightly illogical decisions are a staple of star wars and you have to accept them otherwise there will simply be no drama. Just for example:
- When Luke gets captured by the Wampa, and frees himself, why does he walk right out into a blizzard (and Hoth at night) instead of just hiding out in the sheltered cave? - Why exactly does the empire bring AT-ATs to a snow/ice planet when tracked vehicles obviously make more sense since they will exert less primary stress on the snow/ice? - Why can't the pilot who flew the death star trench land an X-wing in cloud cover in Dagoba? - What kind of dumb ass plan did the entire group have when showing up at Jabba's palace, one at a time? So Leia would go in first and try to rescue Han - if she succeeded what was the point of Luke showing up later? Why didn't Luke just go in at the start too? - nearly everything involving the Ewoks killing Stormtroopers
Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
On January 16 2018 14:35 Atreides wrote: Add me to the club of people who'd way rather watch the prequels than ep7&8. And its not even close. Its all personal opinion ofc.
Well I personally disagree but if you chalk it up to personal opinion then sure - it's your opinion to hold.
I was replying to Falling specifically because he holds TLJ to what look like objective storytelling norms, which should then apply to the prequels too.
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula.
Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha).
The prequels are pretty bad. Ep 8 is pretty bad. Ep 7 is "fun" but any semblance of an interesting story to be told has been swept aside in favor of whatever the hell Johnson did. In truth I see little merit in ranking bad movies; I prefer simply not to watch them.
I'm willing to watch Ep 9 due to the beloved nature of this series that consists of a very large quantity of both very bad and very good products. A good writer can embrace a shitty backstory and make it good going forward (usually not by retcon but merely by just going with it in a way that makes it still good). But this movie really wasn't good for winning over the older more established fanbase.
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula.
Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha).
I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being.
In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic).
So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much.
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula.
Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha).
I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being.
In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic).
So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much.
Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO.
This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions."
Finally got around to seeing this. Like TFA, the central plot-point just completely broke the limits of willing suspension of disbelief.
I know Star Wars has always played fast and loose with space physics, but the whole "fleet chasing" was just absurd beyond any sense, and not even a silly fun absurd like Speed. Like, the equivalent would be a 2 hour car chase where one car is just honking the entire time, except its in fucking space.
There was enough surrounding it that it was a salvageable movie, and if they'd gone and cut the entire Vegas planet and cut the chase to like an hour in universe time instead of a full fucking day then basically everything relevant in the movie would still be there.
Kylo Ren still remains the best character to come out of this trilogy, and I at least enjoyed the build up with Rey where either's possible turns were well within possibility. Don't even mind that both ended up going the predictable route, because at least enough was done with both where it was actually meaningful.
I understand why people might hate Luke's part in the story, but I fully expected him to be the Yoda/Obi-wan of this series, so it was well within the boundaries of what I'd gone in with.
Snoke is still a completely pointless character. Just call him replacement-Palpatine and stop pretending he exists as anything else.
The Prequel Trilogy and the Reboot Trilogy fail and succeed in opposite areas, that is why they are so difficult to compare. For me I think I come down on the side of the Prequels as being better, it is really close though.
This Reboot Trilogy looks like Star Wars and sounds like Star Wars, but when you see it in motion it really doesn't feel like Star Wars.
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula.
Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha).
I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being.
In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic).
So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much.
Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO.
This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions."
I think the TLJ throne room battle is a good balance between realistic fighting and stylistics. I actually think it's pretty high up on the best LS fight list. The red backdrop is gorgeous
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula.
Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha).
I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being.
In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic).
So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much.
Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO.
This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions."
If you have a problem with realistic fight choreography then I suggest you start at from anything with swords. Especially laser swords.
The first thing they teach you when fencing is that what you see in TV is ridiculous and nobody ever fought like that, because if they did they'd be stabbed, sliced or bludgeoned to death in the first half a second of the battle. But big sweeping movements clanging into one another look far better on film than small shifts of balance followed by a quick thrust, parry and retreat back to warily circling one another. This is doubly so for laser swords.
I agree with you that the prequels went completely overboard, with Yoda vs Dooku and high ground being the most egregious, but not a single lightsaber fight is in any way a realistic depiction of how anyone would (have to) fight against them. Despite that, the fights in the new movies have been very enjoyable. Both Finn+Rey vs Kylo and the throne room fight were excellently executed.
On January 16 2018 14:30 B.I.G. wrote: Fair points. Star Wars feels a bit like an over dramatized stage play at times and there is plenty of minor silliness. It's all up to personal reasons in the end. Me, I watch Star Wars for: -Big ass Sci-Fi battles -Light saber and force badassery -Cool villains and heroes
What I felt TLJ Jedi did: -Undermined the strength of too many characters -Needlessly added (what felt to me like) political messages and forced drama/confrontation To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.
As to the prequel Darth Vader criticism: to me his prequel arch made sense. Kid with questionable origins and overall shitty childhood is unable to deal with emotional trauma in a healthy way and is powerful enough to turn his personal pain into everyone else pain. He loses his shit and fucks everything up to the point there is not much left to him but follow the dude that turned out to be just plain evil. Still acted and sometimes represented poorly I agree, but you can't be born a badass.
I really appreciate the honesty when you said "To be fair, I probably would've been fine with simply more of the same.". Then yeah TLJ will be a tough watch because it's clearly trying to depart from some aspects of the Star Wars formula.
Don't you think though that the prequels also undermined the in-universe force strength of a lot of the characters in the OT? In the prequels you see a child managing to blow up the droid control ship, which you know... really diminishes the piloting skills of just about everyone else. Not to mention seeing the Jedi jump and fly around in the duels - the duel between Obiwan and Darth Vader in the first death star end up look like old men gently poking at each other (which, i guess it was haha).
I think it's important to consider the times in which the movies were made. Looking back on many franchises that have released stories over the course of several decades you see how the stakes and scales are steadily increased. Save the princess becomes save the nation, save the nation becomes save the world and so on. SC1 for example is about stopping "mortal" villains whereas SC2 a decade or so later becomes about saving existence from some god like being.
In the early 2000's, the age of cinematographic epicness such as Lord of the Rings, you can't get away with old man light saber poking as you said (lol). And now in the age of superhero movies that are always outdoing eachother you can't get away with a hero breaking a sweat over slightly moving a rock using the force (referring to Rey's rock magic).
So yes, I do feel the movies outdo eachother but that's just because special effects and fight choreography have improved so much.
Fight choreography is one of the things that I would say needs to be done masterfully otherwise it 100% knocks you out of the movie. For me, the best LS battle in Star Wars is Luke-Vader in ROTJ because it shows Luke's agility, and in the end ends with him just battering Vader into submission, in a way that I think would actually happen. Fights being over-choreographed is a real problem with new movies, the Prequels are terribly sinful in this respect. Flipping and spinning are not, in fact, good tricks for fighting with blade weapons. The exotic parries, etc (or the double force push in ROTS) are just odd to see. Like, we all know that if we were fighting with lightsabers we would either be hilariously OP speed slashing like Grievous or super defensive and just waiting to get a tiny poke at the other guys face meaning 1HKO.
This is not just a star wars problem, bad fight choreography that just FEELS unrealistic (Rock vs. Vin Diesel is this, but in a kind of hilarious way) is so common that John Wick became a hit basically because they did the opposite and had the hero do fast and simple motions that make people feel like, "well yea he has superpowers, but that is how it would look if a superhuman gun killer was killing hordes of minions."
If you have a problem with realistic fight choreography then I suggest you start at from anything with swords. Especially laser swords.
The first thing they teach you when fencing is that what you see in TV is ridiculous and nobody ever fought like that, because if they did they'd be stabbed, sliced or bludgeoned to death in the first half a second of the battle. But big sweeping movements clanging into one another look far better on film than small shifts of balance followed by a quick thrust, parry and retreat back to warily circling one another. This is doubly so for laser swords.
I agree with you that the prequels went completely overboard, with Yoda vs Dooku and high ground being the most egregious, but not a single lightsaber fight is in any way a realistic depiction of how anyone would (have to) fight against them. Despite that, the fights in the new movies have been very enjoyable. Both Finn+Rey vs Kylo and the throne room fight were excellently executed.
Most people I think are not looking for realistic fights, particularly in sci-fi or fantasy, rather they are looking for realism within an established universe. Ironically, the beginning of the Dooku fight in Clone Wars is kinda pure in this sense. Dooku dispatches Anakin easily with his lightning and then Obiwan is just fighting super defensively until he gets stabbed, once he gets saved from his simple execution the whole scene goes downhill, but that initial crushing is in some ways perfect.
Oddly, despite your praise, I don't really remember much about the new lightsaber battles. Probably because I only have seen them much fewer times, and also my main issues with them were thematic rather than cinematic. So I think I'd agree they didn't break the sort of audience trust that IMO the Yoda-Dooko, Anakin-Obiwan, or Darth Maul fights did. I think its about preserving the sense of suspense. Another example I can think of of action scenes not making sense would be the later Terminator movies (one with a fairly fat Arnold and another with Bale come to mind) where a sexy death robot with rocket arms comes and kills like everything, but then she judo chops our main guys through concrete and they are only temporarily dazed. Or like the robots grab your leg while you run away and dont just freaking fracture the ankle via crushing even though they rip door handles off right before that?
It's been so interesting reading about the wildly varying opinion on Episodes 7 and 8 in relation to the rest of the series. I think sometimes it's important to remember George Lucas' initial idea for Star Wars: a modern update on Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers-style sci-fi serials with a few high-browed influences (Kurosawa, WW2/Vietnam War parallels).
I've found it helpful to just not care about the movies during their production and just go watch it in the theater on release. If you spend all this time speculating you probably will be disappointed in some way.
On January 16 2018 23:59 sharkeyanti wrote: It's been so interesting reading about the wildly varying opinion on Episodes 7 and 8 in relation to the rest of the series. I think sometimes it's important to remember George Lucas' initial idea for Star Wars: a modern update on Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers-style sci-fi serials with a few high-browed influences (Kurosawa, WW2/Vietnam War parallels).
I've found it helpful to just not care about the movies during their production and just go watch it in the theater on release. If you spend all this time speculating you probably will be disappointed in some way.
I am of a similar mind. I only watched the teaser for this film and went in mostly blind and liked it a lot. I’m more interested in how the films are adapted and expanded. I liked this one a lot because it spent some time talking about people who don’t want to be part of the dark/light, empire/rebel, jedi/sith conflict in any way. And didn’t treat those people like they were heartless or cowards.
I also loved that Luke’s big moment wasn’t about being a violent powerhouse, but using the force to play to the Kylo’s weakness and his own myth. It feed into the initial promise of Jedi that was set out in the first movie, that they had the power that they did not use for violence.
On January 16 2018 11:36 LegalLord wrote: Also why not just shoot the cruiser first? As if without the fleet the ground forces would be able to go anywhere, rather than quickly and easily be picked off by fighters.
I thought this bit was established fine? The cruiser has a shield protecting it from the guns that can reach it. They start firing on the transports that are escaping. The cruiser starts a jump to light speed (while turning) and they think it's a ruse to draw fire away from the transports. They can't just quickly shoot it because the shields will still protect the ship as they have been doing.
Another thought...
Someone else mentioned how the lightspeed suicide kinda ruins a lot of the premise of the combat, but it's probably fine other than maybe thinking it could have been a valid tactic vs the death stars. Like the damage done by the jump/crash was against a very very large ship (Snoke's). It's reasonable that achieving the same vs smaller ships (even a Star Destroyer) would be impractical both economically and pretty difficult to pull off. And "Why don't they just hurl asteroids at each other" is something that's always been a suspension of disbelief for Star Wars considering none of how the space battles work makes any realistic sense anyways.
Anyways I feel like they made the crash make some sense (Star Wars sense at least) without ruining everything.
Also looking it up, canon-wise Snoke's ship had to use a shield similar to the Starkiller's base, both of which are very resilient shields but have a weakness to things traveling at lightspeed (not that the movie establishes this at all for Snoke's ship). So it seems like a Star Destroyer would be protected from such attacks by that method as well by virtue of using a different shield.
I also loved that Luke’s big moment wasn’t about being a violent powerhouse, but using the force to play to the Kylo’s weakness and his own myth. It feed into the initial promise of Jedi that was set out in the first movie, that they had the power that they did not use for violence.
I agree, Luke's whole thing is how the Jedi has perpetuated a cycle of violence with their hubris. If he showed up and battled Kylo Ren (never mind that he would have just gotten blasted apart) he would be going against the motivations he's had for the entire rest of the movie.
Luke's astral projection was definitely cool. A very Jedi-y thing. My problem was his death, which didn't seem necessary (I even wondered coming out of the theater if it was mainly driven by casting issues for SW9). I accepted it more at my second viewing, but for a very dedicated Star Wars fan it's still hard to swallow.
I really hope his death impacts a lot the story going forward. In term of Kylo especially, given that he's the last of the Skywalker line (I'm not expecting Leia to stay long :/). I'm sure Rey will be fine. I would be okay with some Luke force ghosting.
I have high hopes for grumpy ghost Luke providing sage advice/snark to Rey as she mentors a new group of teen force users. That could be a pretty fun third movie.
On January 17 2018 01:33 ZenithM wrote: Luke's astral projection was definitely cool. A very Jedi-y thing. My problem was his death, which didn't seem necessary (I even wondered coming out of the theater if it was mainly driven by casting issues for SW9). I accepted it more at my second viewing, but for a very dedicated Star Wars fan it's still hard to swallow.
I really hope his death impacts a lot the story going forward. In term of Kylo especially, given that he's the last of the Skywalker line (I'm not expecting Leia to stay long :/). I'm sure Rey will be fine. I would be okay with some Luke force ghosting.
Yeah I'd be *shocked* if he's not a ghost in SW9 to a decent amount. But I hope he'll be talking to Kylo, not Rey.
I expect his death to impact Kylo a fair bit; Luke even hinted at it I believe.
I got the impression that Kylo harbors a lot of resentment towards Luke. Not the simple, "you tried to kill me" resentment, but something deeper like Luke is responsible for sending Kylo down the path he went and all the conflict he's feeling over his parents and his choices are because of Luke.
Luke's peaceful passing kinda felt like a big blow to Kylo in that sense; there's this sort of closure Kylo feels entitled to that Luke has just totally denied him.
A Luke ghost haunting Kylo would be pretty fitting for the sarcastic grumpy man Luke became.
I had not thought of Luke dying saving the resistance, he deprived Kylo of the only driving motivation he had. And it feeds into the views that a Jedi’s real power is to be able to mentor and teach beyond death.
On January 16 2018 04:42 Falling wrote: If not for the second ending, I actually was about to call it worse than the prequels...
I actually find this really hard to believe, especially since you go on to complain that TLJ fails various basic storytelling benchmarks/rules.
The Prequels were down right horrendous movies from any objective benchmark. The camera was horrible (shot, reverse shot. Tracking walking shot. Back to shot reverse shot).. There are actual, racist caricatures in them (Jar Jar, the jewish slave owner of anakin (watto?), the whole trade federation). They turned Darth Vader, one of the scariest villains of all time, into whiny kid, whiny teenager, and then whiny man, to the point where we needed that last scene in Rogue One to finally redeem him.
The script was so bad that it made Oscar-level actors (Portman, McGregor) look wooden. Hayden had no chance.
And I haven't even talked about the "romance"...
Well, it's not like I'm giving those ones a pass. But camera work was not my complaint for TLJ- I'm sure it was great, but that's something I would not notice except with repeated watches to figure out why scenes are or are not working (the problem with the reaction shot of BB-8 after the hangar explodes for instance was not a first reaction, but a realization upon further reflection). For my initial few watches, I'm probably not thinking about that unless it's put together in an incomprehensible way. Caricatures are annoying, but doesn't destroy the structural bones of a story, unless it was more prominent. The Darth Vader Downgrade is much more fundamental and akin to my complaint that the new series undercuts the gains of the Return of the Jedi/ undercuts to Luke.
I also think they are fundamentally flawed as prequels and wrote a whole blog on it- they don't expand what we already know very well nor do they properly connect to the Original with the clues provided... and the new series does not properly project politically or thematically from the end of Return of the Jedi.
But I've never had the experience of resenting what I was watching in theatres, while watching it for the first time. My dislike for the prequels came with time when the stories did not hold up. But this is the first Star Wars film (or film in theatres) that fell apart on me while I watching it- it fell apart in real time as it were. Well, Seventh Son fell apart in real time for me, but that was enjoyably bad- mostly badly executed and pretty unimaginative.
Maybe I would have had the same reaction to Episode I had I watched it for the first time when I was older- I know I had some pretty surface-level critiques after the first watch, but I don't remember what they were. But to be sitting in a theatre and completely disliking what I was seeing on a first viewing and even resenting it? That was new- which is why I was leaning that direction. But like I said, the ending pulled me out of the nose dive and now I don't know how I would rank it- I just know what I have problems with and I haven't really found good counters to my problems.
On January 16 2018 11:36 LegalLord wrote: Also why not just shoot the cruiser first? As if without the fleet the ground forces would be able to go anywhere, rather than quickly and easily be picked off by fighters.
I thought this bit was established fine? The cruiser has a shield protecting it from the guns that can reach it. They start firing on the transports that are escaping. The cruiser starts a jump to light speed (while turning) and they think it's a ruse to draw fire away from the transports. They can't just quickly shoot it because the shields will still protect the ship as they have been doing.
There was so much wrong with the chasing setup that I'm sure any average lay person could start asking questions and reach more logical answers than the movie directors and writers.
Which, again, I know Star Wars treats space like air and always has, but never so blatantly. Don't bother explaining the why unless you can actually explain it.
On January 16 2018 23:59 sharkeyanti wrote: It's been so interesting reading about the wildly varying opinion on Episodes 7 and 8 in relation to the rest of the series. I think sometimes it's important to remember George Lucas' initial idea for Star Wars: a modern update on Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers-style sci-fi serials with a few high-browed influences (Kurosawa, WW2/Vietnam War parallels).
I've found it helpful to just not care about the movies during their production and just go watch it in the theater on release. If you spend all this time speculating you probably will be disappointed in some way.
I am of a similar mind. I only watched the teaser for this film and went in mostly blind and liked it a lot. I’m more interested in how the films are adapted and expanded. I liked this one a lot because it spent some time talking about people who don’t want to be part of the dark/light, empire/rebel, jedi/sith conflict in any way. And didn’t treat those people like they were heartless or cowards.
I also loved that Luke’s big moment wasn’t about being a violent powerhouse, but using the force to play to the Kylo’s weakness and his own myth. It feed into the initial promise of Jedi that was set out in the first movie, that they had the power that they did not use for violence.
+1. I loved the theme of moral ambiguity/everyone else in the galaxy not a part of the rebels/first order. It didn't bash you over the head with it, but it didn't seem to skim over it either (in my opinion)
The moral ambiguity fell apart when at the end of the movie it turned right back into "Resistance Good, First Order Bad" and Kylo Ren flew off the handle and never stopped to say "hey, maybe I don't need to kill all your friends."
Seriously. All we got was a turncoat scumbag who murdered 80% of the Resistance for money (thanks to poor communication) saying "well there are good guys on both sides you know." How illuminating. There wasn't a sympathetic First Order character or rich casino character in the entire movie.
On January 17 2018 04:30 TheTenthDoc wrote: The moral ambiguity fell apart when at the end of the movie it turned right back into "Resistance Good, First Order Bad" and Kylo Ren flew off the handle and never stopped to say "hey, maybe I don't need to kill all your friends."
Seriously. All we got was a turncoat scumbag who murdered 80% of the Resistance for money (thanks to poor communication) saying "well there are good guys on both sides you know." How illuminating. There wasn't a sympathetic First Order character or rich casino character in the entire movie.
Oh, I agree that it wasn't done perfectly. But it was the first time that I can remember any Star Wars movie even trying to tread into those waters. Maybe i'm not remembering some iconic scene.
Del Toro's character doesn't imply there are good guys on both sides. He says the he's going to side with whoever can butter his bread better. He says that rich people sell weapons to the "good guys" and the "bad guys." His character is what 80% of humans would do in his situation. He didn't have any allegiance to the Republic, so i'm glad he gave them up. It would've been disingenuous any other way.
I actually think Phasma's death was really cool in that respect. Could've done a lot more with her character obviously, but the way her mask breaks, you expect to see some humanity or some "come to Jesus" moment where she repents. She actually doubles down into her bad-ness, which wasn't what I expected.
I think Kylo Ren has showed a sympathetic side. Idk, I like his character and don't mind the angsty stuff everyone else seems to get triggered by.
But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out.
Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe.
The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else.
Yeah, I'm not really sure what they are going to set up for the climatic event aside from another super weapon. They really haven't established the geography of the First Order (unlike Lord of the Rings (films) that spent two films building up Isengard before knocking it down and three films building up Mordor before knocking it down). The original created a bigger universe: governors, Senate, Emperor- only finally met in the last film, and both Sith only defeated in the last- and the fleet only defeated in the last film. (And even then, they felt the need to recreate the Death Star)
In this series, they've only shown one taskforce and mentioned no other governing bodies. They've already killed the Emperor, they've been blowing up the Imperial fleet left, right, and centre and Rey already defeated Kylo in the first film and has also beat Luke Skywalker in this one... so what's left? Introduce the rest of the First Order in one film and then defeat it? Unfortunately, we've already seen the super-weapon of the week in the Bantam years of the EU- it got old pretty quick. (They also tended to sideline or incapacitate Luke at the beginning of the story because the EU made him to OP... I guess we got that again too )
I recently thought of a rock-paper-scissor game as the power levels of all the characters seem to fluctuate wildly. Rey beats Kylo Kylo beats Snoke Snoke beats Rey
And then you throw in Luke Rey beats Luke and Kylo Luke also beats Kylo Snoke is dead, so now Kylo... beats Hux?
I've found it helpful to just not care about the movies during their production and just go watch it in the theater on release. If you spend all this time speculating you probably will be disappointed in some way.
I am of a similar mind. I only watched the teaser for this film and went in mostly blind
I actually tried that- I spent no time speculating what would happen. I had exactly one expectation going in- don't redo Empire Strikes Back... and I don't think they even cleared that low bar. All my complaints stem from them not connecting one film to the other into a proper trilogy and into a coherent story- I didn't have any ideas on how to fulfill their questions, just that they do so.
Power levels in Star Wars has always been the least interesting thing about Star Wars. All this space spiritualism that only results in who has the biggest, best super powers of the space wizards.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out.
Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe.
The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else.
I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person.
On January 17 2018 06:16 Plansix wrote: Power levels in Star Wars has always been the least interesting thing about Star Wars. All this space spiritualism that only results in who has the biggest, best super powers of the space wizards.
I'm being facetious about power levels and rock-paper-scissors. The serious point is the dragon at the end of the story has already been defeated- one in the first and the second in the second... and not even in the climax. Neither trained to get stronger- so we're roughly in the same place as the first film, except now Rey can beat Luke. There's not much left for Rey except to face the already defeated Kylo; she is already the One.
By the way, how much time passed in that film? Because I swear there were multiple day/night cycles on the Luke planet, but there was only 18 hours of fuel in the cruisers. Is that planet madly spinning like a ninny, six times earth's own speed (so like 6000 miles/ hr), but she's taking short power naps? Or what's going on with the chronology?
On January 17 2018 06:16 Plansix wrote: Power levels in Star Wars has always been the least interesting thing about Star Wars. All this space spiritualism that only results in who has the biggest, best super powers of the space wizards.
I'm being facetious about power levels and rock-paper-scissors. The serious point is the dragon at the end of the story has already been defeated- one in the first and the second in the second... and not even in the climax. Neither trained to get stronger- so we're roughly in the same place as the first film, except now Rey can beat Luke. There's not much left for Rey except to face the already defeated Kylo; she is already the One.
By the way, how much time passed in that film? Because I swear there were multiple day/night cycles on the Luke planet, but there was only 18 hours of fuel in the cruisers. Is that planet madly spinning like a ninny, six times earth's own speed (so like 6000 miles/ hr), but she's taking short power naps? Or what's going on with the chronology?
Was it 18 hours at the start? I thought they started out with a few days of fuel and later mentioned when they were down to only 18 hours.
I don't know that Rey is already "the one". The setup seems to be implying that Rey and Kylo rise in power together; that the Force's balance is being maintained.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out.
Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe.
The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else.
I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person.
I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side.
Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry.
People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader.
Kylo has yet to defeat Rey even once despite his training and her lack of. Apparently the more he trains the stronger she gets as well (yay balance) so it kind of defeats the purpose of training all together.
And was kicking her ass for the entire fight in the first movie right up until he let her tap into the Force and dumpster him. The thing he specifically told Storm Troopers would happen if she was left to explore her powers.
He also got shot by a gun they ran a freaking infomercial on how bad ass it was. And had just fought Finn, who gave Kylo a run for his money.
I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote: People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
Not really. Boba gives Luke a run for his money. Same for Jango vs Kenobi. And in the cartoons there's a whole list of non-force users who hold their own vs Jedi. Particularly magnaguards, assassin droids, bounty hunters (Cad Bane targets Jedi specifically) and Mandalorians.
And, in fact, the praetorian guards aren't force users either in the reboot. Force users have powers that make them elite warriors. But other warriors can be elite too. Also order 66
I don't really get why people rip on Kylo vs Rey fight in TFA. He is wounded, emphasizes that throughout the fight and Rey is not a complete novice. She also gets her as kicked until she uses the force to turn things around.
On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote: People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
Yeah... this is not really true. The Jedi were wiped out by clone troopers who were all non-force users. Plus Rey is a force user, so i am not sure why you are raising this point. Fynn who is not a force user tried to fight Kylo and got beaten in a couple of seconds.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote: People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
Not really. Boba gives Luke a run for his money. Same for Jango vs Kenobi. And in the cartoons there's a whole list of non-force users who hold their own vs Jedi. Particularly magnaguards, assassin droids, bounty hunters (Cad Bane targets Jedi specifically) and Mandalorians.
And, in fact, the praetorian guards aren't force users either in the reboot. Force users have powers that make them elite warriors. But other warriors can be elite too. Also order 66
I don't really get why people rip on Kylo vs Rey fight in TFA. He is wounded, emphasizes that throughout the fight and Rey is not a complete novice. She also gets her as kicked until she uses the force to turn things around.
I don't really agree with you on the Fett stuff, and the Cartoons are...IDK. Its possible that the guards aren't force-y (it would seem there is probably a continuum from The Emperor to Original Trilogy Leia to Force Rube), but they ARE elite trainees and still get beaten 2 v 8 and Rey still has like 3 days of training. That said, I think your point is taken. The Force is only SLIGHTLY stronger than long periods of elite level training.
My main reason for this post is to respond to the "emphasis" point you made. No its not. Its invisible. The first time I watched I totally forgot he was wounded and said, "wow its really weird they made that choice, no one will ever believe Kylo is even a challenge to Rey in the future." Its something you have to have pointed out to you and be looking for on a rewatch. And in the end, why is it a good editorial choice worth defended? Sure, if he looked on the verge of death the entire time, then absolutely crushed Finn anyways, then was beating Rey despite constant visual pain, limping, and basically 100% relying on the force then you have her embrace the force and blow him out of range right before the Falcon comes, then that gives you the same "Rey wins" ending, but actually makes sense. Or you can just have Rey barely be able to escape. Either works 10x better and conveying the point that defenders of the scene allege it was trying to make.
On January 17 2018 15:27 cLutZ wrote: People do not find the blaster shot credible + the general premise of force users vs. non force users has always been a huge gap. Generally, that scene is bad because its bad storytelling as well (for any possible arc), so what is the justification besides, "because we could"?
Not really. Boba gives Luke a run for his money. Same for Jango vs Kenobi. And in the cartoons there's a whole list of non-force users who hold their own vs Jedi. Particularly magnaguards, assassin droids, bounty hunters (Cad Bane targets Jedi specifically) and Mandalorians.
And, in fact, the praetorian guards aren't force users either in the reboot. Force users have powers that make them elite warriors. But other warriors can be elite too. Also order 66
I don't really get why people rip on Kylo vs Rey fight in TFA. He is wounded, emphasizes that throughout the fight and Rey is not a complete novice. She also gets her as kicked until she uses the force to turn things around.
I don't really agree with you on the Fett stuff, and the Cartoons are...IDK. Its possible that the guards aren't force-y (it would seem there is probably a continuum from The Emperor to Original Trilogy Leia to Force Rube), but they ARE elite trainees and still get beaten 2 v 8 and Rey still has like 3 days of training. That said, I think your point is taken. The Force is only SLIGHTLY stronger than long periods of elite level training.
My main reason for this post is to respond to the "emphasis" point you made. No its not. Its invisible. The first time I watched I totally forgot he was wounded and said, "wow its really weird they made that choice, no one will ever believe Kylo is even a challenge to Rey in the future." Its something you have to have pointed out to you and be looking for on a rewatch.
I guessed we both took the movie differently. I felt that the Kylo injury was foreshadowed constantly in the way they show that the wookie bowcaster is super powerful, and so on. Plus during the fight he was bleeding into the snow too.
It was foreshadowed, it was shown that he was hurt… But sadly, he didn’t really act like he was badly hurt. The idea was good but imho the execution during the actual fight could have been a bit better.
Btw: Why can Fin fly stuff in TLJ? Wasn’t that he can’t kinda a thing in TFA?
On January 17 2018 17:41 Velr wrote: It was foreshadowed, it was shown that he was hurt… But sadly, he didn’t really act like he was badly hurt. The idea was good but imho the execution during the actual fight could have been a bit better.
Btw: Why can Fin fly stuff in TLJ? Wasn’t that he can’t kinda a thing in TFA?
Yeah... Fynn seems to get a pass for a whole bunch of inexplicable powers of his own too. Flying stuff, and not to mention having the most convenient knowledge of just about every technical detail of the First Order's systems, despite being a self-proclaimed lowly trooper.
On January 17 2018 17:41 Velr wrote: It was foreshadowed, it was shown that he was hurt… But sadly, he didn’t really act like he was badly hurt. The idea was good but imho the execution during the actual fight could have been a bit better.
Kylo Ren exists to be an ineffective villain, which is why he's constantly losing. Which is great, I love his character direction all around.
But he just can't carry the conflict against a protagonist like Rey.
Btw: Why can Fin fly stuff in TLJ? Wasn’t that he can’t kinda a thing in TFA?
Did he actually fly anything? I thought Rose flew all the ships. He got one of those land speeder things, but that's comparing a car and an airplane.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out.
Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe.
The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else.
I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person.
I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side.
Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry.
People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader.
But he's not (fully) entitled those things, certainly not a mentor. He was lucky enough to get a mentor (for awhile) but why did he deserve one when so many other force sensitive people across the galaxy don't get one? Even in so much as he deserves one, it's not really the point. The sense of entitlement is a character flaw whether or not they actually deserve something.
Yeah there are outside influences on what drove Kylo Ren down his path, but he's also continuously throwing himself down that path because of his own sense of entitlement.
It's pretty heavily the main difference between Kylo and Rey. Everything Rey wants she works towards, she never shows any sense of entitlement. She goes through crazy hoops to meet Luke and answer these burning questions about herself and Luke gives her absolutely nothing. What's her response? She's firm, she's persistent, and she continues to be curious but she never acts like she's entitled to the answers and she doesn't get angry or throw a fit at being denied them.
It's almost a direct contrast between Kylo meeting with Snoke and Rey meeting with Luke. Both mentors deny them what they want but Kylo feels entitled, feels that he deserves to be praised, so he throws a tantrum. Rey is denied in a very similar way but shows perseverance, resourcefulness, and continues to make her own way.
On January 17 2018 21:55 ZenithM wrote: Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D.
He also flew the salt thing poorly right? Rose had to tell him how to work it. It's a bit of a jump for everyone to be on those salt bikes, but at least they made a nod towards Finn's poor piloting skills and basically all we saw him do with the ship was fly it straight so he still seems like a dumpster pilot.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out.
Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe.
The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else.
I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person.
I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side.
Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry.
People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader.
But he's not (fully) entitled those things, certainly not a mentor. He was lucky enough to get a mentor (for awhile) but why did he deserve one when so many other force sensitive people across the galaxy don't get one? Even in so much as he deserves one, it's not really the point. The sense of entitlement is a character flaw whether or not they actually deserve something.
Yeah there are outside influences on what drove Kylo Ren down his path, but he's also continuously throwing himself down that path because of his own sense of entitlement.
It's pretty heavily the main difference between Kylo and Rey. Everything Rey wants she works towards, she never shows any sense of entitlement. She goes through crazy hoops to meet Luke and answer these burning questions about herself and Luke gives her absolutely nothing. What's her response? She's firm, she's persistent, and she continues to be curious but she never acts like she's entitled to the answers and she doesn't get angry or throw a fit at being denied them.
It's almost a direct contrast between Kylo meeting with Snoke and Rey meeting with Luke. Both mentors deny them what they want but Kylo feels entitled, feels that he deserves to be praised, so he throws a tantrum. Rey is denied in a very similar way but shows perseverance, resourcefulness, and continues to make her own way.
On January 17 2018 21:55 ZenithM wrote: Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D.
He also flew the salt thing poorly right? Rose had to tell him how to work it. It's a bit of a jump for everyone to be on those salt bikes, but at least they made a nod towards Finn's poor piloting skills and basically all we saw him do with the ship was fly it straight so he still seems like a dumpster pilot.
He deserves all those things because hes a skywalker. Hes placed as a hero from birth and has a clear example that he needs to meet to not be a failure. Hes pressured from birth to be a galaxy level hero. Luke presumably looks for those other force sensitive people as well. Hes pushed down the path he goes on by the people around him failing him and abandoning him to his fate. After Luke tries to kill him he legitimately has to fear for his life and the only thing that can save him is the dark side. He was placed in that academy by his parents and was turned to the darkside by luke.
Ray has nothing so she works for basic survival. Her only notable act to start her on her path is not selling off the only friend she makes on a planet and from then shes running for her life from the empire. Kylo throws a tantrum because snoke tells him rightfully that hes a failure and that he doesn't make a good sith. He never wanted to be a sith and has always had to project his self worth on the pressures that others have always put onto him. Rey is shocked from meeting her hero and finding out that hes a coward that caused all the problems she faced in the last few days. She is denied and decides the only thing left to do is a hail mary "lets deliver myself to kylo and snoke in some episode 6 play to do something". Shes resourceful as she steals the books, she shows perseverance by not being a coward that refuses to ignore the galaxies issues like a regular person and continues her power spike by not getting any real training or doing anything that would help her on the island to justify her abilities in the movie.
When you are burdened with expectations and pressures you're not entitled when everyone fails you and you want the things people said you had to be.
On January 17 2018 05:07 Sermokala wrote: But it treated WAY more then into simple moral ambiguity. It realistically proposed the end of jedi and sith empire and resistance republic and first order. It had the evil bad guy beg the hero to join him to establish a new order in the universe of balance and to give up the ways of the violent warring cycles the universe and force that existed. .
Then it shat on all that to throw star wars back into where the series was right after episode 3.
I don't know; I think a lot of that judgement is going to have to kinda wait for the next movie.
It's basically two themes of the movies coming to a head together. On the one side you have the moral ambiguity of the Jedi Council and a lot of the characters in the movie (should Luke have killed Kylo, should the jedi keep existing, etc.).
On the other you have Kylo as basically this embodiment of entitlement. Like for all the conflict he feels and everything else the main flaw or trait of the character is his sense of entitlement. He deserves to be the next Darth Vader, he deserves to have Rey by his side, he deserves to be the supreme leader, he deserves to kill Luke Skywalker.
I thought the film did well of blending kind of those two bits together, Rey rejects Kylo and his entitlement attitude sends him into an emotional rage. I think there's something very real about Kylo thinking the world would be a utopia if only people would do what he says and give him what he deserves, but since they won't he's going to crush it all underfoot.
This temporarily blurs the moral ambiguity of the plot; but I don't think it's a permanent backtracking of the situation. It's still questionable if Rey should be pursuing the Jedi ways and a lot of the ambiguity of the sort of fights and losses the resistance are taking (specifically with Poe's heroics). The next movie could pick back up on these themes without missing a beat I think and it'd still feel natural.
How is it not a backtracking of the plot? The "rebellion" is a few dozen people now maybe and the empire is the entire universe of people who've probably never been effected that much by the empire so much as the massive governmental collapse that the rebellion gave it. They're probably as happy now as they were after episode three when the empire was first announced. You have one sith at the head of the empire that probably has other sith to help him out.
Kylo isn't entitled hes the same as Ray in a lot of aspects. Hes got the skywalker legacy and force powers in him and His mom is busy trying to get the republic off the ground and his dad is a rouge thats probably not a great father figure either. Then he joins luke whos probably the best father figure he could get and he ends up trying to kill him. He ends up cold and alone in the universe where the hero of the universe thinks he needs to die and so he goes to the only one offering to take him in in snoke. Kylo isn't entitled to anything but people to care about him. He asks please beacuse he doesn't really want to be the bad guy he just doesn't see anything else he can do. He looks up to darth vader beacuse vader brought stability and peace to the universe.
The next movie has to be about resistance vs empire and have some death star plot because thats all the universe can be thanks to TLJ. Maybe Rain Johnson trilogy can do something else but the themes are baked in way to much at this point for the trilogy to be anything else.
I think you are looking at entitlement in kinda a weird way, in the sense that you frame it that Kylo isn't entitled to anything. Which is uh true, but that's the point of why Kylo has this entitlement flaw/trait. Kylo *feels entitled* to things regardless of if he deserves them; it's clear because he's consistently emotional after being denied something he feels the right to. He feels like he did a good job killing Han, Snoke chides him and Kylo feels anger at not being given the accolades he feels he deserves. He wears his helmet and feels like that makes him a Vader figure and shows anger and rage when he's not treated to that level of respect. He wants to kill Luke and is enraged when he's denied his dues on that front Like it's baked into his character and it's in a way that he can't see it himself. He's constantly defeating his better intentions with his sense of entitlement (like his response when he can't turn Rey), but he's unable to see that about himself and it just keeps fueling his further decline despite his inner efforts to be a better person.
I'm saying he is entitled to things. Like family and a mentor to guide him. Basic things to make sure that he wasn't forced to go down the path he went. Now he feels rightfully that he was forced to be the bad guy and was pushed there by Luke more then anyone and now no one is even trying to turn him to the good side.
Kylo has made more morally good choices then Ray at this point. Ray has no background and no character past her power level and chosen one status. They're both trying to find their way in the universe and while ray has had no one willing to guide her everyone in kylos life has either abandoned him or made him worse in his life. Luke made kylo ren and Luke refuses to deal with that in any real way other then to make Kylo even more angry.
People are unhappy with Luke because hes a coward that refuses to fix his mistakes that hes unleashed on the galaxy. Even in death all he does is buy the resistance a few minutes instead of defeating kylo or turning kylo or apologizing to kylo for what he did. Contrast Lukes final scene with kylo with Obi wans final scene with vader.
But he's not (fully) entitled those things, certainly not a mentor. He was lucky enough to get a mentor (for awhile) but why did he deserve one when so many other force sensitive people across the galaxy don't get one? Even in so much as he deserves one, it's not really the point. The sense of entitlement is a character flaw whether or not they actually deserve something.
Yeah there are outside influences on what drove Kylo Ren down his path, but he's also continuously throwing himself down that path because of his own sense of entitlement.
It's pretty heavily the main difference between Kylo and Rey. Everything Rey wants she works towards, she never shows any sense of entitlement. She goes through crazy hoops to meet Luke and answer these burning questions about herself and Luke gives her absolutely nothing. What's her response? She's firm, she's persistent, and she continues to be curious but she never acts like she's entitled to the answers and she doesn't get angry or throw a fit at being denied them.
It's almost a direct contrast between Kylo meeting with Snoke and Rey meeting with Luke. Both mentors deny them what they want but Kylo feels entitled, feels that he deserves to be praised, so he throws a tantrum. Rey is denied in a very similar way but shows perseverance, resourcefulness, and continues to make her own way.
On January 17 2018 21:55 ZenithM wrote: Yeah he didn't fly anything by himself other than these salt motorbikes. I'd say it's even comparing lawn mowers and planes :D.
He also flew the salt thing poorly right? Rose had to tell him how to work it. It's a bit of a jump for everyone to be on those salt bikes, but at least they made a nod towards Finn's poor piloting skills and basically all we saw him do with the ship was fly it straight so he still seems like a dumpster pilot.
He deserves all those things because hes a skywalker. Hes placed as a hero from birth and has a clear example that he needs to meet to not be a failure. Hes pressured from birth to be a galaxy level hero. Luke presumably looks for those other force sensitive people as well. Hes pushed down the path he goes on by the people around him failing him and abandoning him to his fate. After Luke tries to kill him he legitimately has to fear for his life and the only thing that can save him is the dark side. He was placed in that academy by his parents and was turned to the darkside by luke.
Ray has nothing so she works for basic survival. Her only notable act to start her on her path is not selling off the only friend she makes on a planet and from then shes running for her life from the empire. Kylo throws a tantrum because snoke tells him rightfully that hes a failure and that he doesn't make a good sith. He never wanted to be a sith and has always had to project his self worth on the pressures that others have always put onto him. Rey is shocked from meeting her hero and finding out that hes a coward that caused all the problems she faced in the last few days. She is denied and decides the only thing left to do is a hail mary "lets deliver myself to kylo and snoke in some episode 6 play to do something". Shes resourceful as she steals the books, she shows perseverance by not being a coward that refuses to ignore the galaxies issues like a regular person and continues her power spike by not getting any real training or doing anything that would help her on the island to justify her abilities in the movie.
When you are burdened with expectations and pressures you're not entitled when everyone fails you and you want the things people said you had to be.
Like idk, I feel like you're seeing the movie the same way; all the points you bring up are exactly what I see as the point except you are drawing the conclusion in an opposite direction. Rather than seeing that the movie is calling bull on these entitlements (and yes the generational hand-off and systems that creates them) you see the same thing and are coming to a different conclusion that yes Kylo does deserve all these things and he's justified in his behavior.
Which is interesting and reasonable; I mean it's clearly part of art/media to draw your own conclusions.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
I don't get the Praetorian guard thing really. It didn't seem like she had a totally easy time of it and even if she's inexperienced it seems clear the lightsaber is a superior weapon and the guard's armor is more a hinderance than helpful vs them. So is it really that surprising someone with a superior weapon for the situation had an advantage they wouldn't have otherwise gotten
Like yeah it's a bit of a stretch, but it seems well within the standard movie norms. Her staff training helping her quickly learn to wield a lightsaber is reasonable enough. It's not like she's blocking multiple blaster shots with it or anything.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Finally got around to watching this. Loved it, with the exception of the very dumb twist with that Vice-Admiral's secret plan. Also, kinda disappointed there was no standard light saber fight.
I'll agree with other people's assessments that Rey is OP. But like, I'm just over that since we already criticized that to death 2 years ago.
Strangely enough, that wasn't what bothered me the most in the sequels. To me, what bothered me was the premise of the New Order entirely. The way that went down and they were able to form a super technologically advanced navy and army in just 2 decades even though they were kicked out of the established galaxy.
That, and like, it feels they had this established universe, and they had to immediately set up how the Good Guys are underdogs somehow.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey is standard for the pulp. Everyone can pilot a plane. Everyone can hold their own in a fist fight/duel. Everyone can pass for an enemy with the weakest ass disguise possible.
And as far as I know, Luke was mostly self taught. Unless Yoda gave him lightsaber lessons in the 2 weeks training course he took in ESB. He apparently became as good or close to as good as Vader by practicing by himself. I find myself having to suspend my disbelief as much with Luke as I do Rey. Especially with the “farm boy to ace jet fighter combat because he flew a space crop duster.”
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey is standard for the pulp. Everyone can pilot a plane. Everyone can hold their own in a fist fight/duel. Everyone can pass for an enemy with the weakest ass disguise possible.
And as far as I know, Luke was mostly self taught. Unless Yoda gave him lightsaber lessons in the 2 weeks training course he took in ESB. He apparently became as good or close to as good as Vader by practicing by himself. I find myself having to suspend my disbelief as much with Luke as I do Rey. Especially with the “farm boy to ace jet fighter combat because he flew a space crop duster.”
For what it's worth there's also just a plausible lack of tutors for this sort of thing at this point in the movies. Snoke doesn't appear to be a traditional Jedi/Sith (he didn't even have a lightsaber) and Luke was self taught with only minimal instruction.
Even Snoke's guards are plausibly learning melee combat (and old and relatively useless combat style if you can't block blaster bolts) in ad hoc-ish way as any true master in melee combat previously would probably have been a Jedi or Sith. The general First Order riff-raff seem to use melee weapons as riot control for non-lethal enforcement. The only lightsaber training they would have would be if they practiced with Kylo Ren, but we have no indication that has happened.
For as strong as we say Kylo Ren all his training in dueling with a lightsaber would be at Luke's academy and we don't know how long that lasted or how militaristic the training was. Once he left there he presumably hasn't encountered anyone with a lightsaber until Rey.
You are starting off in a world where there seems to be a general vacuum of knowledge on certain military topics because everything was built around the Jedi/Sith relationship, and then the Sith destroyed the Jedi and kept the knowledge for themselves for power.
I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars.
On January 18 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote: I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars.
Although strangely enough, it seems most lasers are super effective vs most armor in Star Wars.
On January 18 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote: I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars.
Although strangely enough, it seems most lasers are super effective vs most armor in Star Wars.
The German army are all really bad shots in Indian Jones too. He is also a college professor who can fly a plane, ride horses and sword fight. Pulp is like that. Armor is super awesome if worn by a lead character in pulp.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey is standard for the pulp. Everyone can pilot a plane. Everyone can hold their own in a fist fight/duel. Everyone can pass for an enemy with the weakest ass disguise possible.
And as far as I know, Luke was mostly self taught. Unless Yoda gave him lightsaber lessons in the 2 weeks training course he took in ESB. He apparently became as good or close to as good as Vader by practicing by himself. I find myself having to suspend my disbelief as much with Luke as I do Rey. Especially with the “farm boy to ace jet fighter combat because he flew a space crop duster.”
Don't you remember the scenes with obi wan in the first movie when luke has the helmit on and hes doubting the force in how to see the droid firing lazers at him? I get pulp on everyone can hold their own but ray never gets a single scene of nor time to train anything yet she fights better then anyone else in the galaxy. Theres suspending disbelief and then there's just mary sueing beacuse you value making luke a coward over giving ray any training or mentoring at all.
Theres a significant time skip where luke is training under yoda and can reasonably surmise "training happened" ray leans expert sword fighting in a week. thats unbelievable.
She beats up storm troopers, the guy who murdered his father, got shot, fought another pulp hero before having to fight her and did not listen to his own advice about under estimating her using the balance seeking space magic. Th And a bunch of dudes in red helmets that were clearly cooler that storm troopers, but still nameless goons to be downed by the heroes.
I get the guys in red were cool looking, but at what point did people believe they were not going to get dumpstered in a giant light saber fight? They previewed it with Kylo trying to go after Snoke and they all drew their cool weapons.
On January 18 2018 12:24 Plansix wrote: She beats up storm troopers, the guy who murdered his father, got shot, fought another pulp hero before having to fight her and did not listen to his own advice about under estimating her using the balance seeking space magic. Th And a bunch of dudes in red helmets that were clearly cooler that storm troopers, but still nameless goons to be downed by the heroes.
I get the guys in red were cool looking, but at what point did people believe they were not going to get dumpstered in a giant light saber fight? They previewed it with Kylo trying to go after Snoke and they all drew their cool weapons.
I mean it was a cool scene and all but I just feel Ray goes so much further into the pulp territory than anyone else i the universe that it ruins most of the character.
Theres no real tension anymore for the final movie on whos going to win lightsaber fight between them. Ray hasn't earned anything so everything she gets is meaningless in comparison to the changes that kylo has had in the series.
I'm still salty that we don't get anymore Kylo vocoder voice.
On January 18 2018 12:24 Plansix wrote: She beats up storm troopers, the guy who murdered his father, got shot, fought another pulp hero before having to fight her and did not listen to his own advice about under estimating her using the balance seeking space magic. Th And a bunch of dudes in red helmets that were clearly cooler that storm troopers, but still nameless goons to be downed by the heroes.
I get the guys in red were cool looking, but at what point did people believe they were not going to get dumpstered in a giant light saber fight? They previewed it with Kylo trying to go after Snoke and they all drew their cool weapons.
But if not anyone of the people you listed, then who?
That's basically the problem right now. The mooks are expected to be dumpstered, but so are all of the remaining villain characters.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
He also got hit by that droid laser thing, forced to run away from Darth Vader the first time, struggled to retrieve his lightsaber, failed to lift the stones, completely lost concentration and dropped Yoda when receiving a vision, is tricked by Darth Vader, beaten and had his hand cut off by Darth Vader. His strength is piloting- mentioned quite a few times in the film- and not just him tooting his own horn- Biggs Darklighter gives him the A-Ok just prior to the battle- it's also clear that he's been target shooting at very small objects while flying, plus it turns out he was an alright shot, when gunning down TIE's in the Falcon, much to Solo's chagrin who thought Luke was all hot air.
Don't confuse one area of competency (plus the one time he finally lets go and succeeds with the Force, aka the climax of his character arc for that film) for Luke breezing through everything else. Similarly, Neo had certain areas of competency at the beginning, but panics at the heights, gets caught by the Agents, failed the first jump, did alright against Morpheus, but clearly out of his element compared to Morpheus, wasn't particularly special escaping from the Agents the first time back in the Matrix... etc, etc. I've been soft on Rey in the past, but a tough hill to climb is a more interesting story than an easy plain to walk, and I'd say the film makers have been too easy on her- they've haven't really made her struggle, not really and truly struggle. But the main point isn't necessarily that Rey is too much so much as they really haven't set up anyone to really give her a good run for her money in the final film, except to face Kylo for round two where she can beat him again.
Anakin... I won't defend kid Anakin. They should've started the story when he was a hot shot pilot in his late teens and not before.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts?
I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke.
The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts?
I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke.
The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts?
I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke.
The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star.
It's up to you if you want to go to all those lengths to come up with crappy excuses for why Luke was an expert at everything despite poor on-screen justification, and why Rey cannot possibly be an expert because of similarly poor on-screen justification, that's fine. But there really isn't any point in arguing that your mind universe is the true SW universe and anybody who thinks Rey training with a staff is enough of a justification for her to be able to fight with a one-sided staff as long as she remembers to not shift her grip too much.
My problem isn't really with your criticism of the new trilogy. I agree with you that it was one of the main weaknesses of TFA that Rey could do absolutely everything instantly. For each individual skill there's a reasonable in-universe explanation, but it's the sheer quantity of elite skills she suddenly turns out to have. She can pilot, fight with a lightsaber, and resist mind probes, all essentially on her first attempt. Yes, she had plenty of time to learn how to fly. Yes, they establish that she could fight against a wounded Kylo, and that she got her ass kicked until she "found balance", and yes, resisting the mind probe isn't all that farfetched. It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp.
TLJ actually did a lot to rectify that. Rey got her ass kicked. Maybe not by Kylo, but he played a key part in it. Kylo also went through a lot of growth, while Rey essentially lost time. Kylo ended with a crushing defeat, but so did the entire resistance. I find people are too hooked up on the "well, FO controls the galaxy, resistance is doomed, but has Rey, and there's no big bad guy. movie 9 needs another death star to be interesting". I don't know what JJ is going to do, but if it's a return to all the boring tropes with resistance good, FO evil. Build super weapon, destroy super weapon, Rey saves the day and decapitates FO by killing Kylo (and Hux blows up on Death Star Mk 4), party with *newoks* on *newndor*... THEN the new trilogy is a failure. So far I have seen two rather entertaining movies that add some interesting stuff to the SW universe and do some other stuff badly. They were visually stunning, and had some stupid plotholes. But what TLJ did very well was establish a bad guy who isn't the bad guy "because he's evil", but rather it gave the bad guy actual motives and a backstory. Even with 3 entire movies to give depth to Palpatine we *still* don't know why he was the bad guy and what motivates him (other than a hatred for Jedi, which doesn't really explain his rampage and domination of the galaxy). JJ could broaden that backstory and build a different conclusion to the trilogy that doesn't require a deathstar. And I really hope he does.
It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp.
I think there's some real intentional subversion of the heroes journey going on that is (or trying to) feed into the plots and themes of the movies. It'll be interesting to see what 9 does with it and if it successfully pulls it off as a trilogy or not.
Like even for all of Rey's natural advantages compared to Luke, is she doing any better than Luke did in the bigger picture? Luke delivered R2D2, blew up the Death Star, and helped immensely in the battle of Hoth (both as a scout and a pilot) by this point in the movies.
In terms of direct actions that's helped the cause she's delivered BB-8 to the resistance, opened a door for Han Solo & Chewie so they could blow up the Starkiller base, sort of helped convince Ren to kill Snoke, and helped get the Falcon to the right part on Crait to save the fleeing resistance members? Like almost everything she's had to do has been to help herself out of situations for her own benefit (and characters who happen to be with her). She's really contributed almost nothing to the resistance cause until the final 5 minutes of TLJ.
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts?
I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke.
The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star.
It's up to you if you want to go to all those lengths to come up with crappy excuses for why Luke was an expert at everything despite poor on-screen justification, and why Rey cannot possibly be an expert because of similarly poor on-screen justification, that's fine. But there really isn't any point in arguing that your mind universe is the true SW universe and anybody who thinks Rey training with a staff is enough of a justification for her to be able to fight with a one-sided staff as long as she remembers to not shift her grip too much.
My problem isn't really with your criticism of the new trilogy. I agree with you that it was one of the main weaknesses of TFA that Rey could do absolutely everything instantly. For each individual skill there's a reasonable in-universe explanation, but it's the sheer quantity of elite skills she suddenly turns out to have. She can pilot, fight with a lightsaber, and resist mind probes, all essentially on her first attempt. Yes, she had plenty of time to learn how to fly. Yes, they establish that she could fight against a wounded Kylo, and that she got her ass kicked until she "found balance", and yes, resisting the mind probe isn't all that farfetched. It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp.
TLJ actually did a lot to rectify that. Rey got her ass kicked. Maybe not by Kylo, but he played a key part in it. Kylo also went through a lot of growth, while Rey essentially lost time. Kylo ended with a crushing defeat, but so did the entire resistance. I find people are too hooked up on the "well, FO controls the galaxy, resistance is doomed, but has Rey, and there's no big bad guy. movie 9 needs another death star to be interesting". I don't know what JJ is going to do, but if it's a return to all the boring tropes with resistance good, FO evil. Build super weapon, destroy super weapon, Rey saves the day and decapitates FO by killing Kylo (and Hux blows up on Death Star Mk 4), party with *newoks* on *newndor*... THEN the new trilogy is a failure. So far I have seen two rather entertaining movies that add some interesting stuff to the SW universe and do some other stuff badly. They were visually stunning, and had some stupid plotholes. But what TLJ did very well was establish a bad guy who isn't the bad guy "because he's evil", but rather it gave the bad guy actual motives and a backstory. Even with 3 entire movies to give depth to Palpatine we *still* don't know why he was the bad guy and what motivates him (other than a hatred for Jedi, which doesn't really explain his rampage and domination of the galaxy). JJ could broaden that backstory and build a different conclusion to the trilogy that doesn't require a deathstar. And I really hope he does.
There are no lengths that I am going for luke. Its a very simple path for him to do what he does. You have to go extreme lengths to justify anything ray does in the movies. Ray doesn't have time to learn to fly a ship she gets into a ship and flys it. She gets a light saber and fights with it. She gets mind probed and can resist it.
TLJ makes everything worse by removing even the slightest shade of mary sueness ray could be. Shes a jedi master that can lift far more weight then ever just by having the rocks in front of her without any instruction or anyone telling her how. She fights the best fighters the first order can muster better then the kylo with a weapon she didn't even knew existed a week ago. she doesn't pilot things anymore but simply aims an escape pod to somehow land inside snokes super ship at a docking bay on a ship she had no way of knowing existed. Kylo didn't lose anything in TLJ. he gained the universe and control over the entire first order.
They made kylo a good character but they've pinned the trilogy to end just as you said it would to be a failure. Palpatine never needed justification or motivation because the story was never about him. Other characters we knew built him up and his image so when he appeared what we saw was exactly what he needed to be.
What does JJ have even to work with? He has no big bad enemy. the evil side has all the material power but lacks any threat to ray and the entire side looks incompetent. The good guys are incredibly weak but lacks any doubt to weather they'll win or not 4 characters in ray poe rose and finn with chewbacka as background support maybe?
There are no lengths that I am going for luke. Its a very simple path for him to do what he does. You have to go extreme lengths to justify anything ray does in the movies. Ray doesn't have time to learn to fly a ship she gets into a ship and flys it. She gets a light saber and fights with it. She gets mind probed and can resist it.
She grew up in a refurbished AT&AT which included a lot of information on starships (and a flight simulator) and she's worked in and scrapped ships her entire life. Her most formative thing in her life is a memory of a pilot flying away and later getting a pilot helmet so you know she's motivated in the endeavor.
And like I'm not even making that up completely, it's canon from one of the novels they made for the first movie (as much as that counts for the film which isn't too much).
On January 17 2018 15:01 levelping wrote: I feel like Rey really gets a double standard on this whole "power level thing", and well just all round double standards for the character.
Luke = moisture farmer farm boy that manages to fly an x wing in a matter of days, fires an impossible shot without a targeting computer
Anakin-skywalker = builds a robot as a child, destroys trade federation droid ship as a boy.
Star wars is just brimming with unreal power levels. With Rey - they at least tried to set up the plausibility of her defeating Kylo, see - blaster shot etc etc.
You're really up a creek on this. Luke makes a comment about being able to shoot vermin off a speeder bike. thats a crazy shot and its implied that obiwan directly tells him how to use the force on it. Building a robot when you have space fairing tech isn't unrealistic. Everything about Anakin is insane, the guy lives in a space fiaring tech level near a bunch of robots and incredibly high tech things. Hes a pod racer so being a pilot isn't that crazy and its highly implied that everything he does in the fighter is purely by accident.
With Ray and TWA its acceptable that the fight eventualy goes rays way but that nowhere near shows how she can go from there to slaying pratorian guards better then kylo in at best a week.
And you don't have a problem with Luke going from flying dinky tattoine vehicles to a (then) state of the art star fighter, also in at best a week?
Anakin did all that as a SLAVE and a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD. Where did he learn robotics as a slave? Slave robot school? Where did he learn how to pilot a pod racer? Slave pod circuit?
The movies establish that Rey is proficient in melee fighting because you see her ward off people with her staff very early on.
I mean if a one liner that Luke as a farm hand can shoot rats makes it plausible for him (with the force) to blow up a space station, why is it so hard to accept Rey's abilities?
Its never said how long it is in episode 4 and its entirely realistic that he was given enough time in a simulator to do it. the new trilogy is on a clock from the start practically and has almost no time skips like episode 4 did.
Its the future. The kid doesn't go to school probably and spends his time around mechanics and robots with his pod that he races. Its perfectly conceivable that the threshold for building robots is much lower in the far space fairing future. C3p0 doesn't even look that advanced when you first see him. Its not crazy that he was just tought podraceing alongside other slaves and he just happened to be a prodigy at it being a force wieling skywalker.
Fighting with a staff has almost no relevance with fighting with a one handed lazer sword. Ray doesn't even have any one liners explaining why shes managed to learn lightsaber fighting to such a degree that she can defeat praetorian guard within a week of finding out that lightsabers are real. Luke NEVER gets to that level even after three movies and an extremely long time afterwords and extensive training from yoda. Ray gets nothing relevant from luke and has huge power spikes from nothing even dropped slightly from some character.
Simulator... I mean do you not see how much you're willing to fill in extraneous detail for Luke and Anakin but not for Rey?
If you want to go with space x wing simulator, why couldn't Rey have trained with a sword off screen all the time?
There's a pretty glaring double standard going on here.
The difference is that there is time for luke, there isn't time for ray. We follow ray almost entirely from when she leaves jakku up until now when shes on the falcon leaving the salt planet. There isn't time past the one scene where she is moving around with her stick until she decides to go to the lightsaber and cuts through the rock. there is a training scene even for luke where he learns to use the lightsaber with obiwan that ray never gets.
Rey had her entire childhood to practice with a one handed stick, so maybe she was training with a sword all this while before TFA starts?
I mean this is a all round lame excuse but so is the x wing simulator that you've conjured up for Luke.
The most hilarious part about the x wing simulator is that why would they even train him in an x wing simulator? Did someone secretly know that the empire would track down the rebel base on yavin and then Luke would need to fly a star fighter to shoot down the super secret death star weak point?
Its not an excuse. The movie shows things and you can fill in gaps to explain things. thats suspension of disbelief. Ray has a large staff that she fights with thats a two handed thing that she moves her grip around a lot to use it. Then she goes from that to a one handed weapon where moving from the grip is absolute death. If she trained as a kid with a one handed stick that would be a thing that they would show. but she didn't know lightsabers existed before TFA so there isn't a reason for her to. an X-wing simulator is very well in the bounds of time and technology available. The main character has to be involved in the final strike because hes main character so he learns to fly an xwing in the meantime. Thats okay pulpy explanation. Suddenly flying the falcon expertly when you've been using a sled to go down a hill recently doesn't make sense. learning to use a sword when before you've used a staff doesn't make sense. Not having a week go by from discovery of lightsabers being a thing till when you're doing expert level sword fighting doesn't make sense. You can excuse learning to fly an x-wing in weeks or months from when luke gets to the resistance to when the resistance fights the death star.
It's up to you if you want to go to all those lengths to come up with crappy excuses for why Luke was an expert at everything despite poor on-screen justification, and why Rey cannot possibly be an expert because of similarly poor on-screen justification, that's fine. But there really isn't any point in arguing that your mind universe is the true SW universe and anybody who thinks Rey training with a staff is enough of a justification for her to be able to fight with a one-sided staff as long as she remembers to not shift her grip too much.
My problem isn't really with your criticism of the new trilogy. I agree with you that it was one of the main weaknesses of TFA that Rey could do absolutely everything instantly. For each individual skill there's a reasonable in-universe explanation, but it's the sheer quantity of elite skills she suddenly turns out to have. She can pilot, fight with a lightsaber, and resist mind probes, all essentially on her first attempt. Yes, she had plenty of time to learn how to fly. Yes, they establish that she could fight against a wounded Kylo, and that she got her ass kicked until she "found balance", and yes, resisting the mind probe isn't all that farfetched. It's just not a very interesting narrative when you make a "hero's journey" movie, but the hero doesn't actually need the journey, because she is already extraordinarily good at everything and the bad guy is a wimp.
TLJ actually did a lot to rectify that. Rey got her ass kicked. Maybe not by Kylo, but he played a key part in it. Kylo also went through a lot of growth, while Rey essentially lost time. Kylo ended with a crushing defeat, but so did the entire resistance. I find people are too hooked up on the "well, FO controls the galaxy, resistance is doomed, but has Rey, and there's no big bad guy. movie 9 needs another death star to be interesting". I don't know what JJ is going to do, but if it's a return to all the boring tropes with resistance good, FO evil. Build super weapon, destroy super weapon, Rey saves the day and decapitates FO by killing Kylo (and Hux blows up on Death Star Mk 4), party with *newoks* on *newndor*... THEN the new trilogy is a failure. So far I have seen two rather entertaining movies that add some interesting stuff to the SW universe and do some other stuff badly. They were visually stunning, and had some stupid plotholes. But what TLJ did very well was establish a bad guy who isn't the bad guy "because he's evil", but rather it gave the bad guy actual motives and a backstory. Even with 3 entire movies to give depth to Palpatine we *still* don't know why he was the bad guy and what motivates him (other than a hatred for Jedi, which doesn't really explain his rampage and domination of the galaxy). JJ could broaden that backstory and build a different conclusion to the trilogy that doesn't require a deathstar. And I really hope he does.
There are no lengths that I am going for luke. Its a very simple path for him to do what he does. You have to go extreme lengths to justify anything ray does in the movies. Ray doesn't have time to learn to fly a ship she gets into a ship and flys it. She gets a light saber and fights with it. She gets mind probed and can resist it.
TLJ makes everything worse by removing even the slightest shade of mary sueness ray could be. Shes a jedi master that can lift far more weight then ever just by having the rocks in front of her without any instruction or anyone telling her how. She fights the best fighters the first order can muster better then the kylo with a weapon she didn't even knew existed a week ago. she doesn't pilot things anymore but simply aims an escape pod to somehow land inside snokes super ship at a docking bay on a ship she had no way of knowing existed. Kylo didn't lose anything in TLJ. he gained the universe and control over the entire first order.
They made kylo a good character but they've pinned the trilogy to end just as you said it would to be a failure. Palpatine never needed justification or motivation because the story was never about him. Other characters we knew built him up and his image so when he appeared what we saw was exactly what he needed to be.
What does JJ have even to work with? He has no big bad enemy. the evil side has all the material power but lacks any threat to ray and the entire side looks incompetent. The good guys are incredibly weak but lacks any doubt to weather they'll win or not 4 characters in ray poe rose and finn with chewbacka as background support maybe?
Well, she in the third movie could beat even Superman if we go in the line of this trilogy.
There are no lengths that I am going for luke. Its a very simple path for him to do what he does. You have to go extreme lengths to justify anything ray does in the movies. Ray doesn't have time to learn to fly a ship she gets into a ship and flys it. She gets a light saber and fights with it. She gets mind probed and can resist it.
She grew up in a refurbished AT&AT which included a lot of information on starships (and a flight simulator) and she's worked in and scrapped ships her entire life. Her most formative thing in her life is a memory of a pilot flying away and later getting a pilot helmet so you know she's motivated in the endeavor.
And like I'm not even making that up completely, it's canon from one of the novels they made for the first movie (as much as that counts for the film which isn't too much).
She grew up in a former battlefield and salvaged them for parts. Theres no way walkers have info on star ships and there were no functioning star ships beacuse she was salvaging them for parts.
Anikin at least was from a salvage yard that was organized to sell parts and was involved with racing crazy ships.
Thats not real cannon and doesn't impact the movie.
On January 19 2018 06:04 Logo wrote: So to summarize...
19 year old moisture farmer who has access to a speeder - ok that he can fly
9 year old slave kid - ok that he can fly
17 year old ship scavenger who shows immense interest in piloting and has a speeder - totally unbelievable
Anakin was a pod racer and Luke was already renowned as a pilot before he ever hopped into an X-Wing. Their situations are totally different from Rey, who even admits that she had no idea she could pilot stuff.
On January 19 2018 06:04 Logo wrote: So to summarize...
19 year old moisture farmer who has access to a speeder - ok that he can fly
9 year old slave kid - ok that he can fly
17 year old ship scavenger who shows immense interest in piloting and has a speeder - totally unbelievable
Anakin was a pod racer and Luke was already renowned as a pilot before he ever hopped into an X-Wing. Their situations are totally different from Rey, who even admits that she had no idea she could pilot stuff.
How is a pod racer meaningfully different from a speeder in terms of allowing someone to pilot a spaceship?
It just feels like you're trying *really* hard to make some logical consistency that includes Anakin and Luke and excludes Rey in terms of what's acceptable pulp.
On January 19 2018 06:04 Logo wrote: So to summarize...
19 year old moisture farmer who has access to a speeder - ok that he can fly
9 year old slave kid - ok that he can fly
17 year old ship scavenger who shows immense interest in piloting and has a speeder - totally unbelievable
Anakin was a pod racer and Luke was already renowned as a pilot before he ever hopped into an X-Wing. Their situations are totally different from Rey, who even admits that she had no idea she could pilot stuff.
How is a pod racer meaningfully different from a speeder in terms of allowing someone to pilot a spaceship?
It is somewhat believable that someone who is accustomed to piloting a high performance vehicle like a pod racer would be able to hop into a starfighter and do the limited piloting that Anakin did in Episode 1. Rey was driving a piece of shit speeder and then did totally bullshit piloting maneuvers with the Millennium Falcon. Not that I really care, but it's very clear which set of circumstances most strains credulity.
I’m still having a tough time dealing with Luke being able to pilot a fighter because he also flew a crop duster and did some training. Switching from a single engine to a twin is a huge deal for real life pilots. And one does not just hop into a plane and make it go. They are not cars. Call bullshit on one of the characters, you have to call bullshit on them all.
On January 19 2018 06:40 Plansix wrote: I’m still having a tough time dealing with Luke being able to pilot a fighter because he also flew a crop duster and did some training. Switching from a single engine to a twin is a huge deal for real life pilots. And one does not just hop into a plane and make it go. They are not cars. Call bullshit on one of the characters, you have to call bullshit on them all.
Luke is by far the easiest of the characters with which to reconcile his piloting abilities. His piloting skills are talked up by multiple characters in Episode 4. You're basing your conclusion here on a bunch of unfounded presumptions.
On January 19 2018 06:40 Plansix wrote: I’m still having a tough time dealing with Luke being able to pilot a fighter because he also flew a crop duster and did some training. Switching from a single engine to a twin is a huge deal for real life pilots. And one does not just hop into a plane and make it go. They are not cars. Call bullshit on one of the characters, you have to call bullshit on them all.
Luke is by far the easiest of the characters with which to reconcile his piloting abilities. His piloting skills are talked up by multiple characters in Episode 4. You're basing your conclusion here on a bunch of unfounded presumptions.
So the problem with Rey is she's a loner so no one could speak to her skills? That's much more reasonable than the other way the complaints are thrown out. Basically a line from Plutt or one of the other scavengers early on would fix this whole problem.
But it also seems not even worth mentioning it's so minor.
On January 19 2018 06:40 Plansix wrote: I’m still having a tough time dealing with Luke being able to pilot a fighter because he also flew a crop duster and did some training. Switching from a single engine to a twin is a huge deal for real life pilots. And one does not just hop into a plane and make it go. They are not cars. Call bullshit on one of the characters, you have to call bullshit on them all.
Luke is by far the easiest of the characters with which to reconcile his piloting abilities. His piloting skills are talked up by multiple characters in Episode 4. You're basing your conclusion here on a bunch of unfounded presumptions.
So on a backwater planet in the middle of no place he learned to pilot a rebel star fighter through video games? Or his crop duster or whatever trash pile a T-98 is? And at some point he learned to use the ball turret on the Falcon too? I get that they say he is a good pilot out loud, but like fucking how? That makes as much sense as college professor Indian Jones being an expert fist fighter, driver and all around Nazi killer.
But it is pulp so who cares? Heroes like Luke and Rey are powered through talent and youth, not practice and hard work.
I don't see what's so hard about this to understand. We know, before Luke ever jumps into an X-Wing, that he has had training as a military pilot (including shooting things) and is a great pilot already (see comments from Obi-Wan, Biggs, and Luke). His piloting skills do not show up in a vacuum. In very stark contrast, Rey's do. Whether this discrepancy matters is besides the point. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to draw this false equivalence between Luke and Rey with regards to the piloting thing. This isn't really disputable.
This is the craft Luke shot womp rats in: He had a toy model of it in his house. It's not quite a military starfighter but it's far from nothing. He was training to become an Imperial cadet and his piloting skills were hyped up multiple times. And he did end up being a little in over his head; Ben rightfully shot him down when he was cocky enough to say to Han that he'd fly a ship to get past the Imperial blockade. And his struggles to learn the ways of the Jedi were real, lengthy, and included trial by fire.
Rey, on the other hand... while having skills is not a surprise, she's kind of a Mary Sue. It all just comes easily to her, and there's little to indicate that she had to struggle to get the hang of any of it. In E7 it was forgivable because beyond the lightsaber fight it wasn't that bad (and I was hoping it'd be retconned meaningfully) but it was just doubled down upon with no explanation here. Anakin's talents are somewhere in the middle; the Naboo scene where he destroyed the command ship was utter BS but the rest of it could be reasonably justified because he learned the trade over many years. And yes, Phantom Menace did it all pretty badly even though it's less Mary Sue than Rey.
Of course people saying that the moisture farmer boy is a great pilot sets up him flying the fighter later on. But it makes as much sense as a 19 year old potato farmer knowing how to pilot an F-22.
Edit: So if poor farm boys can get stick time in what appears to be military hardware, Rey can't in a scrap yard? Apparently stick time is free, so anyone can learn(except Finn, because he is Finn).
On January 19 2018 07:04 LegalLord wrote: This is the craft Luke shot womp rats in: He had a toy model of it in his house. It's not quite a military starfighter but it's far from nothing. He was training to become an Imperial cadet and his piloting skills were hyped up multiple times. And he did end up being a little in over his head; Ben rightfully shot him down when he was cocky enough to say to Han that he'd fly a ship to get past the Imperial blockade. And his struggles to learn the ways of the Jedi were real, lengthy, and included trial by fire.
Rey, on the other hand... while having skills is not a surprise, she's kind of a Mary Sue. It all just comes easily to her, and there's little to indicate that she had to struggle to get the hang of any of it. In E7 it was forgivable because beyond the lightsaber fight it wasn't that bad (and I was hoping it'd be retconned meaningfully) but it was just doubled down upon with no explanation here. Anakin's talents are somewhere in the middle; the Naboo scene where he destroyed the command ship was utter BS but the rest of it could be reasonably justified because he learned the trade over many years. And yes, Phantom Menace did it all pretty badly even though it's less Mary Sue than Rey.
Isn't this not usable by the arbitrary rules people before you set up as the criteria of what's acceptable and unacceptable suspension of disbelief?
Like canon wise there's a lot of supporting information for all 3 to be good pilots (i.e Rey had access to a flight simulator is canon).
But watching just the movie you have no idea what Luke piloted or that it's "that thing". A toy of a ship doesn't mean much (certainly means less than Rey owning a pilot's helmet).
Rey being a decent pilot is ok. Rey mastering everything ever in record time is problematic. Luke wasn't a master at everything he ever did, so why is she?
Luke definitely had quite a few factors supporting that he was a good pilot. But he was never so good as to be a Mary Sue. So actual character development.
She nearly crashed the Falcon, gets wrecked by Kylo up until the point where the Force decides it is balance time, forgets to take the safety off the gun, pulls the wrong fuses and gets caught by Kylo.
But yeah, other than those things she is great at everything. But they should have had some lines about how good she was at things before she did them so people could be mad at those lines.
On January 19 2018 07:04 LegalLord wrote: This is the craft Luke shot womp rats in: He had a toy model of it in his house. It's not quite a military starfighter but it's far from nothing. He was training to become an Imperial cadet and his piloting skills were hyped up multiple times. And he did end up being a little in over his head; Ben rightfully shot him down when he was cocky enough to say to Han that he'd fly a ship to get past the Imperial blockade. And his struggles to learn the ways of the Jedi were real, lengthy, and included trial by fire.
Rey, on the other hand... while having skills is not a surprise, she's kind of a Mary Sue. It all just comes easily to her, and there's little to indicate that she had to struggle to get the hang of any of it. In E7 it was forgivable because beyond the lightsaber fight it wasn't that bad (and I was hoping it'd be retconned meaningfully) but it was just doubled down upon with no explanation here. Anakin's talents are somewhere in the middle; the Naboo scene where he destroyed the command ship was utter BS but the rest of it could be reasonably justified because he learned the trade over many years. And yes, Phantom Menace did it all pretty badly even though it's less Mary Sue than Rey.
Isn't this not usable by the arbitrary rules people before you set up as the criteria of what's acceptable and unacceptable suspension of disbelief?
Like canon wise there's a lot of supporting information for all 3 to be good pilots (i.e Rey had access to a flight simulator is canon).
But watching just the movie you have no idea what Luke piloted or that it's "that thing". A toy of a ship doesn't mean much (certainly means less than Rey owning a pilot's helmet).
Just as an aside, "suspension of disbelief" doesn't mean that. It means accepting the rules of the new universe the movie has put you in. It doesn't mean excusing bad writing (particularly when there are easy fixes like time lapsing the island training or having Leia not be the most incompetent general since Douglas Haig). Indeed, half the complaints about 7&8 is that they don't abide by the rules of the universe as previously understood, thus shattering one's suspension of disbelief.
On January 19 2018 07:26 Plansix wrote: She nearly crashed the Falcon, gets wrecked by Kylo up until the point where the Force decides it is balance time, forgets to take the safety off the gun, pulls the wrong fuses and gets caught by Kylo.
But yeah, other than those things she is great at everything. But they should have had some lines about how good she was at things before she did them so people could be mad at those lines.
And in TFA that stuff happens and its okay. what we're discussing is what happens in TLJ and how TLJ doesn't include any of the mistakes or explanations for the spike between 7 and 8 in her abilities. in TWA we can excuse a lot of what she does to kylo being injured or the force being with her to make her lucky. In TLJ shes better then anyone else in the galaxy at everything she does.
On January 19 2018 07:26 Plansix wrote: She nearly crashed the Falcon, gets wrecked by Kylo up until the point where the Force decides it is balance time, forgets to take the safety off the gun, pulls the wrong fuses and gets caught by Kylo.
But yeah, other than those things she is great at everything. But they should have had some lines about how good she was at things before she did them so people could be mad at those lines.
And in TFA that stuff happens and its okay. what we're discussing is what happens in TLJ and how TLJ doesn't include any of the mistakes or explanations for the spike between 7 and 8 in her abilities. in TWA we can excuse a lot of what she does to kylo being injured or the force being with her to make her lucky. In TLJ shes better then anyone else in the galaxy at everything she does.
Spike in her abilities? She lifts a pile of rocks... I'm not sure why that qualifies as such a big deal. Luke lifted his X-Wing from a swamp, and in general, force lifting stuff is not that special. Unlike stopping a laser in mid air, which Kylo did without breaking a sweat.
Unless you mean killing a bunch of red shirts. Sure, they had cool armor, but they were destined to die from the moment anybody noticed there were nameless guards with swords standing around. As for people saying she did better in that fight than Kylo, I kinda got the exact opposite feeling. She was barely holding her own while Kylo took out a few. It was only right at the beginning and right at the end that Rey killed a few (albeit with badass moves). But I will admit I have only seen the movie once so far.
On January 19 2018 07:18 LegalLord wrote: Rey being a decent pilot is ok. Rey mastering everything ever in record time is problematic. Luke wasn't a master at everything he ever did, so why is she?
Luke definitely had quite a few factors supporting that he was a good pilot. But he was never so good as to be a Mary Sue. So actual character development.
This is the key- it's not any one thing of Rey. Characters should have areas of competency. Defenders keep harping on Luke's skill... but that's his main skill. Everything else, he has to struggle through. Give the guy a break. Whereas Rey has a plethora of skills. Having lots of skills isn't a bad thing. The problem is that she has so many, she rarely has to really has to struggle, and rarely are her defeats as pronounced as Luke's or let's say Neo in the first Matrix. There is some defeat in the Force Awakens and for that I gave the first film a pass. This film didn't really increase my confidence on the matter- she's flung around by the one guy who is dead for the next film and seemingly needed no training from Luke to become more powerful.
The problem is in aggregate, not any one thing in particular.
On January 19 2018 07:26 Plansix wrote: She nearly crashed the Falcon, gets wrecked by Kylo up until the point where the Force decides it is balance time, forgets to take the safety off the gun, pulls the wrong fuses and gets caught by Kylo.
But yeah, other than those things she is great at everything. But they should have had some lines about how good she was at things before she did them so people could be mad at those lines.
And in TFA that stuff happens and its okay. what we're discussing is what happens in TLJ and how TLJ doesn't include any of the mistakes or explanations for the spike between 7 and 8 in her abilities. in TWA we can excuse a lot of what she does to kylo being injured or the force being with her to make her lucky. In TLJ shes better then anyone else in the galaxy at everything she does.
She gets in one real conflict am due fights a dude. Maybe two. Kylo gets the rest. The fight with Luke is one where he is not invested in winning. Like at all.
To focus on the force-sensitive heroes' previous flight training is to miss what the narrative is telling you.
In ep IV, Luke's talent as a pilot is tied to his talent with the force ("The Force is strong with this one", "Use the Force, Luke."). Yes, the movie tells you a bit about his previous experience... he was talented even as a kid, but all he ever had access to was an old T16 for shooting womprats. The narrative is clear: Luke's piloting experience is limited, but his connection to the Force makes him one of the best pilots in the galaxy and when he leans on it completely he makes the shot and wins the battle of Yavin.
In ep I, the narrative doubles down. Referring to Anakin's experience in podracing to explain his piloting skills is missing the point entirely. The only reason Anakin is capable of podracing is because of his prodigious Force abilities making up for slow human reaction times. The prequels take the OT narrative of "Luke's force-sensitivity manifests in excellent flying skills" and makes it explicit with Anakin.
The sequels have the established lore of the previous two series to build off of. Like it or not, part of the lore is that the Force makes you a natural pilot. A character who turns out to be both Force-sensitive and a natural pilot is exactly aligned with the narrative established by Luke and Anakin. The fact that the sequels spend less time showing us this new character's limited previous piloting experience is because the Force-pilot dynamic has already been established and is here only being referred to and continued.
And I don't mind the natural pilot stuff... or her being a great mechanic, and I think it's great that she's naturally powerful in the Force. . .but I want her to be challenged. I want her to go from raw, untrained power, and struggle to 'unlearn, what she has learned', to fail and to soldier on. How she might bear up under great suffering is so much more interesting than her being only somewhat challenged- and absolutely destroyed once, but then the film takes that challenge off the table immediately without her doing anything.
On January 19 2018 15:49 Falling wrote: And I don't mind the natural pilot stuff... or her being a great mechanic, and I think it's great that she's naturally powerful in the Force. . .but I want her to be challenged. I want her to go from raw, untrained power, and struggle to 'unlearn, what she has learned', to fail and to soldier on. How she might bear up under great suffering is so much more interesting than her being only somewhat challenged- and absolutely destroyed once, but then the film takes that challenge off the table immediately without her doing anything.
I think that's taking a very narrow view of being challenged. Basically making it only about the physical and combative aspects of the character and disregarding everything else. It always seemed to me that part of the point is that Rey confronts Snoke/Kylo and meets very little physical challenge (well a fair bit with the guards, but she deals), but it still results in almost no betterment of her situation.
She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends.
Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
On January 20 2018 03:04 Velr wrote: Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he would still be alive and be a theoretical treat to the first order instead of doing suicide by "gotcha".
He would have wasted away into nothing. He didn't even know Han died. He got a bunch of students killed and ran away from his nephew and shame. When Rey fights him, he catches himself at the end with the Force, which he had stated he cut himself off from. That scene is about someone who is like Luke used to be rejecting who Luke became, IMO. And he is so blinded by shame he can't even see it. He is fearful of Rey's desire to go into "the dark place" on the island, even though he did the exact same thing with Yoda. He fears the part of Rey that is like him, the part that caused him to give himself up to Vader. We could argue that he saw the same thing in Ben too.
Personally, I love this take on Luke along side my own cannon that he used the dark side to beat Vader. That the experience of beating Vader with that power made him understand how tempting it could be and he could never let his students go through the process he did. That saving his father made him afraid of losing anyone else to the dark side, which pretty much assured that he would lose someone to the dark side.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends.
Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated.
My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges?
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends.
Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated.
My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges?
As far as I know, Rey can pull a lightsaber to herself, lift a bunch of rocks, mind control a storm trooper after three tries and break a big rock. Three of those have been useful. Luke train himself to do the first one on his own and could lift rocks while doing a headstand with Yoda. It is unclear if he could have lifted more rocks of he wasn’t also balancing Yoda on his foot(that seen is real dumb in all the best ways).
In the big picture, who cares about who wins? Ray is a Mary Sue and there is not doubt about it, but in 30 years the Second order will control again the galaxy, without any reason, with a Death Sun or something worst and the antagonist is going to be like Milhouse but older.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
You have inspired me to contemplate a question: Why should we want the non-Rey resistance to survive? My conclusion is we should not, and indeed, people who yearn to be free from the First Order also should not. Leia, frankly, was the least interesting of the 3 characters they brought back from 4-6, and her character's life work in the New Republic is already a failure. Finn & Rose are chronically dumb, but are elevated by the Resistance because reasons, & Poe is a good pilot but a worthwhile sacrifice for a new beginning. Thus, there is no cinematic payoff for saving the resistance, and going forward the payoff for the galaxy is a big "meh". These guys are proven losers, and not just because they are outnumbered, they weren't always outnumbered, they lost from even footing to become outnumbered. Random Freedom Fighter #7 will lead a more effective resistance.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends.
Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated.
My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges?
As far as I know, Rey can pull a lightsaber to herself, lift a bunch of rocks, mind control a storm trooper after three tries and break a big rock. Three of those have been useful. Luke train himself to do the first one on his own and could lift rocks while doing a headstand with Yoda. It is unclear if he could have lifted more rocks of he wasn’t also balancing Yoda on his foot(that seen is real dumb in all the best ways).
The Yoda scene is great. Its about showing control/discipline not about raw power.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
You have inspired me to contemplate a question: Why should we want the non-Rey resistance to survive? My conclusion is we should not, and indeed, people who yearn to be free from the First Order also should not. Leia, frankly, was the least interesting of the 3 characters they brought back from 4-6, and her character's life work in the New Republic is already a failure. Finn & Rose are chronically dumb, but are elevated by the Resistance because reasons, & Poe is a good pilot but a worthwhile sacrifice for a new beginning. Thus, there is no cinematic payoff for saving the resistance, and going forward the payoff for the galaxy is a big "meh". These guys are proven losers, and not just because they are outnumbered, they weren't always outnumbered, they lost from even footing to become outnumbered. Random Freedom Fighter #7 will lead a more effective resistance.
On January 20 2018 02:40 Velr wrote: She got challenged by willfully getting captured for shaky reasons. The one guy she should hate, she wants to safe from himself and thats basically it. Her only other real problem is "luke is an asshole!".
And the problem of the entire first order and its grip on the galaxy after TFA which she's managed to do next to nothing about except give a some people a ride in the last few minutes of the movie.
Luke showing up to save the resistance at the end would not have happened without her.
Yeah, but much like Kylo killing Snoke she just kinda falls backwards into that one rather than it being too much of a personal accomplishment.
Sort of like Luke and the Emperor? He had literally no plan when turning himself in. And when Luke beats Vader, but just barely(Vader really wasn’t into it). What does Luke accomplish in ESB? Blowing up a couple AT-ATs, crashes his X-wing, fails some training, runs off and gets his ass kicked by Vader and then is saved by friends.
Rey doesn’t beat Snoke, but she does give Kylo the chance to do so. I don't see it as a narrative problem in any way. People seem to have weird standards for what they want out of that character.
Luke has blown up the Death Star after delivering the plans and saving the princess by that point in the trilogy, so he's done *something* pretty important for the rebellion at that point. But yeah in ESB and TLJ there's a great mirroring between the plots in that sense which I appreciated.
My point is just people constantly complain about Rey's powers, but those powers have done almost nothing significant in the the bigger plot picture (Resistance vs First Order) so like how is that trivializing Rey's challenges?
As far as I know, Rey can pull a lightsaber to herself, lift a bunch of rocks, mind control a storm trooper after three tries and break a big rock. Three of those have been useful. Luke train himself to do the first one on his own and could lift rocks while doing a headstand with Yoda. It is unclear if he could have lifted more rocks of he wasn’t also balancing Yoda on his foot(that seen is real dumb in all the best ways).
The Yoda scene is great. Its about showing control/discipline not about raw power.
Isn’t that the point of the film though? That failure is the path to victory. And running from failure just assure defeat. You are right that the resistance failed at its goal of saving the Republic and even itself, but it did set the New Order back. I think the thrust of the new series will be that victory isn’t forever.
Edit: I also like that Yoda scene. It serves its purpose and has some good Muppet comedy. I just think it is funny because we never ask ourselves:
“What the fuck did Yoda say to get Luke to balance Yoda on his foot? Did he start on the foot or jump up there? Is this normal Jedi training or is Yoda just an old man space troll? Why is he holding the cane while up there?”
I mean, that is kind of what some of the characters say, but its not really what they do. Kylo doesn't fail his way to victory, he kills. Rey's running is successful. The failures of Finn & friends result in extremely bad outcomes. It is Luke finally taking a stand that salvages some modicum of life for those that he supports, so running and taking a stand are both themes.
Also, they blew up 2 ships. Kinda big ships I suppose, but not really that important long term. We all expect TFA to lose in the next movie, thus showing that "victory isn't forever", but that hasn't been earned. The real major thrust of the new Trilogy is that everyone who isn't evil that isn't a man from 4-6 is totally incompetent.
On January 19 2018 15:49 Falling wrote: And I don't mind the natural pilot stuff... or her being a great mechanic, and I think it's great that she's naturally powerful in the Force. . .but I want her to be challenged. I want her to go from raw, untrained power, and struggle to 'unlearn, what she has learned', to fail and to soldier on. How she might bear up under great suffering is so much more interesting than her being only somewhat challenged- and absolutely destroyed once, but then the film takes that challenge off the table immediately without her doing anything.
I think that's taking a very narrow view of being challenged. Basically making it only about the physical and combative aspects of the character and disregarding everything else. It always seemed to me that part of the point is that Rey confronts Snoke/Kylo and meets very little physical challenge (well a fair bit with the guards, but she deals), but it still results in almost no betterment of her situation.
Not really. It's not just physical challenges- but physical challenges very often are the outward manifestation of inward challenges, particularly in action films. But I meant to struggle and suffer in the largest sense of the word, physical, yes, but much more. It's a journey and a good journey has worthy opposition.
But in a lot of those answers it does sound like he just decided to discard most of the plot lines set up by the first movie. I understand going away from the first trilogy's tropes, but he didn't have to completely ignore SW7 either. "Nobody cares about Snoke, not his story" isn't really the kind of answer people were expecting. I did like the "decision" of making Rey a nobody, that reveal was indeed dramatic. I say "decision" because it just might be the director straight up ignoring the mysterious scenes about Rey's origins in SW7.
On January 24 2018 20:00 ZenithM wrote: But in a lot of those answers it does sound like he just decided to discard most of the plot lines set up by the first movie. I understand going away from the first trilogy's tropes, but he didn't have to completely ignore SW7 either. "Nobody cares about Snoke, not his story" isn't really the kind of answer people were expecting. I did like the "decision" of making Rey a nobody, that reveal was indeed dramatic. I say "decision" because it just might be the director straight up ignoring the mysterious scenes about Rey's origins in SW7.
There was no satisfactory answer to Snoke.
Mace Snoke? Fuck no. Snoke Plagueis? Why did he change his name?
Any other origin for Snoke is essentially exactly what he gave us: essentially self-trained DS user (and there are plenty in the EU, and even in the Canon it's got the fucking nightsister bullshit) who grabbed his chance to take control over a large chunk of the ex-Empire forces. Powerful, but ultimately unimportant, because the story is about Kylo, not Snoke.
Everyone seems to be aware of the Force in the universe, so there must be an equal number of people aware that the dark side is a thing. I can totally accept that Snoke as just the guy who grabbed power by having the remaining empire loyalist rally around him.
Even so, he didn't have to get killed off in 2 minutes without a second thought. I get that it's Kylo and Rey's story, but the way that movie had to deal with some of the plot threads started in SW7 felt really dismissive. We could have gotten less casino, more Snoke (and have him ultimately die in the same scene). I guess it was intentional to discard him that quickly, and it had the welcome effect of really putting Kylo in the center of things to come, but it just feels like a breach of continuity or something. Felt like killing the Emperor trope for the sake of it.
"See, Rey could have been somebody's daughter, like that dude Luke with Vador? But no, she's nobody." "See, Snoke could have been the Big Bad, master of the Force with unfathomable powers. Nah he's not that big of a deal." It's a good trilogy so far but it's very self-conscious.
If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
I don't think that's a bad complaint, but also one I consider minor.
Basically the problem is the thematic impact of killing Snoke (Kylo killing his true enemy and what that says about the past & the inter generational themes of the movie) gets kind of condensed with the reveal of Rey's lineage and I feel like the former kind of muddled the latter. Like with the 2nd reveal so quickly happening (among Poe's story line coming to a head) it feels a bit like a tumble of reveals instead of having time to think about and savor the implications.
But in hindsight I don't think it really diminishes the impact or how neat the reveals were once you have time to kind of digest it all.
On January 25 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote: If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
I can agree with that. Its probably why its so divisive of a movie. It attacks the things that people love about star wars in an attempt to make something that isn't star wars because the director is ashamed of the source material. Its how we get hot garbage like the fan4stick spandex fire.
Or at least it feels like that. TFA was divisive for much different reasons but at the end of the day fan service services the fans.
On January 25 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote: If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
I can agree with that. Its probably why its so divisive of a movie. It attacks the things that people love about star wars in an attempt to make something that isn't star wars because the director is ashamed of the source material. Its how we get hot garbage like the fan4stick spandex fire.
Or at least it feels like that. TFA was divisive for much different reasons but at the end of the day fan service services the fans.
Or that Star Wars was known for breaking conventions and had become mired in its own tropes. That it deserves more than just a rehash of the dynamics that existed before. The director isn’t ashamed of anything. He just wants star wars to be more that family drama with space wizards.
The problem is it never was a family drama (the good movies) and thinking it was is a fundamental mistake. It is about a heroes tale. In the end it was a simple story.
The mistake with discarding things from the universe is that Johnson fails to understand that if his movie was called Star Attack: The last warrior it wouldn't have broken $100 million
On January 25 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote: If you think that movie was focused on killing the tropes of Star Wars and moving forward, that is a completely valid take on it. I would say that the movie puts forth the idea that the reverence for the past is almost toxic and a trap. Especially if you don't learn from the past. The movie doesn't say that the Jedi are bad(Luke says that), but that longing for the Jedi as they were is asking to repeat the same mistakes.
I'd be cool with them breaking conventions if that was in the movie. It's not.
TLJ is a family drama with space wizards. The only thing with any substance is the space wizard family drama. The rest of the plot and setting has no meat to it in the slightest.
On January 25 2018 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote: I'd be cool with them breaking conventions if that was in the movie. It's not.
TLJ is a family drama with space wizards. The only thing with any substance is the space wizard family drama. The rest of the plot and setting has no meat to it in the slightest.
I completely disagree. Rey and Kylo are not related. Finn isn’t a space wizard(maybe). The narrative of the story is that they need to look for something beyond the endless empire vs rebel conflict that they admit will never end in the first movie. They can’t beat the darkside. It is impossible. Just like Kylo can’t really kill or defeat Luke. How do you resist a war that will never end? And enemy you will never destroy? Why would you just stay out of the way if the conflict is eternal?
On January 25 2018 06:48 WolfintheSheep wrote: I'd be cool with them breaking conventions if that was in the movie. It's not.
TLJ is a family drama with space wizards. The only thing with any substance is the space wizard family drama. The rest of the plot and setting has no meat to it in the slightest.
I completely disagree. Rey and Kylo are not related. Finn isn’t a space wizard(maybe). The narrative of the story is that they need to look for something beyond the endless empire vs rebel conflict that they admit will never end in the first movie. They can’t beat the darkside. It is impossible. Just like Kylo can’t really kill or defeat Luke. How do you resist a war that will never end? And enemy you will never destroy? Why would you just stay out of the way if the conflict is eternal?
Rey's entire plotline was accepting that her parents abandoned her for nothing. Family drama.
Rey and Kylo are the emo star crossed lovers romance plot. Not "family" drama, per se, but I figured that fits into it.
Finn's story is A) not belonging where he is, and B) chasing the girl that leads him somewhere else. Both times.
Kylo's hangup is being betrayed by his uncle, conflict with killing his parents, idolizing his grandfather. Kylo is literally family drama the character.
Luke's drama is failing his nephew.
Leia and Han want to save their son.
Just like TFA, you keeping pointing out the plotlines that are not fleshed out the slightest in the actual movies themselves. I would be thrilled if the movies were actually about those themes. Instead we have some "fill in the blank" context and really, really simplistic excuse plots to move the characters forward on their family/romance drama.
The Rey/Kylo thing is not a romance. Rey just wants to save him from Snoke and the dark side. Kylo might be into her, but in the way a 13 year old boy is into a girl he lives next door to.
And I didn't say the movie was devoid of family drama. I said it was about moving past it, or killing it. By the end of that movie, the family drama is effectively dead.
The problem with saying that it tries to go against conventions and break the tropes of the series is that it posists the perfect way for the series to break away from tropes and go against conventions only for the main characters to force themselves back into the same state they were 5 movies ago. Nothing the movie did changed star wars in any way but in the worse by cheapening and delegitimizeing star wars.
If the movie ended where it probably should have with Kylo and Ray standing on the deck of snokes super ship watching the resistance die while they announce the new galactic order of balance It would have been a shock to match I am your father. instead we get a set up to another tired rehash reinforcing the old way of doing things and people acting cowardly and dumb to continue the cycle of violence that the universe finds itself in.
Kylos whole character arc is about him coming to grips with who he is after everyone in his family has failed him includeing him failing himself. Ray is her trying to find her place in the galaxy without ever having a family. Finn is trying to find purpose away from the abuseive family of the storm troopers. Poe is trying to deal with getting his family of pilots killed and the new family he finds that expects things from him now. Rose is trying to justify her sisters death on the altar of the resistance.
All the main characters are about family. the movie reinforces that at every turn. The movie doesn't break a single trope or convention and instead insists to the audience through gotcha moments that things actual happen when they don't matter in the slightest. Leia space wizard didn't need to happen. Hyperspace jump didn't need to happen. Luke projection didn't need to happen. The casino plot didn't need to happen. The attempt to delay the first order didn't need to happen. Ray lifting the rocks didn't need to happen. Snoke dieing and the fight with the pretorians didn't need to happen.
None of the major beats that people will remember the movie for didn't need to happen because they had no real impact on the plot. At the end we're still empire vs rebels where everyone knows the good guys are going to win in the end because force wants balance. Its a terrible movie and people should feel bad for enjoying it just like the transformers movies.
You're not garbage people for likeing it. I like bayhem myself in doses but I don't say that transformers breaks conventions with its jesus plots and dino robots. You can't make a science action movie in a sci fi universe. You can't be the bayhem and then act like you're above bayhem level of story telling.
You don't enjoy bayhem films because they're good movies you enjoy bayhem films because they're technical master pieces strung together by filler and a few pages of legitimate story telling. You're suppose to feel bad for enjoying them.
The original trilogy were technical master pieces but they also stuck to a plot structure and played within that structure. It wasn't high art but it had clear story development and built a universe..
I mean the problem a lot of sci fi movies have had recently is that they're more about the action instead of being about the story. The suspension of disbelief of the science is used simply to have shiny things happen in space instead of useing it for good story. The transformers series rides the line by being on earth with traditional human characters and traditional pyrotechnics while having fighting robots. No one is saying Pacific rim is great story telling because it recognizes that its about the robots and monsters fighting each other.
Star Wars has been extremely soft sci-fi from the start, so I'd never hold the movies to any kind of scientific standard.
Not to say that the last two movies maintained the suspension of disbelief even without expectation of realism, because the planet sized death ray and the slow-mo fleet chase were just absurd to the point of silly.
It doesn't have to be "scientifically realistic" but it does have to make sense with in-universe canon and not look like just retarded shark-jumping. Space Leia goes well over the edge on that one. The hyperspace jump is kind of on the edge but honestly probably a short-sighted plot point.
One could also wonder why the escape shuttle with all the main characters was lucky enough to be in the 50% that didn't get exploded. Though that's definitely forgivable because there are things with worse odds that passed through.
For the same reason Luke isn’t the first target during the trench run, magic main character armor. It is such a common trope that some table top RPGs started to model it in games themed after movies. Heroes didn’t have HP, but drama/plot points. The rule expressly said that the character wouldn’t be hurt by the explosion that kills everyone else in the room. They just get dirty. Minor characters get killed/hurt(R2) before the hero does, telling the hero they are on their last leg.
I have to admit the more that some complaints are thrown around about the movie (especially Sermokalas pretty blunt ones) the more it makes me like the movie for not being what they wanted it to be, but instead doing a pretty decent job at being what it was.
It wouldn’t be an awful movie if not for the fact that it shits upon the continuity of the trilogy, that much is true. It reminds me of text-based roleplaying where the individual participants are more interested in propping up their their pet characters than in what it’s really supposed to be about: shared storytelling.
As a movie this thing sucks - there is no way around it, the only saving grace, if you can call it even that, are the special effects, the sound, you know, the eye-candy, and some little drama. I would give it 3/10. As a SW movie it is better, because of the ridiculous low standarts in fantasy or action flicks, and because of the good SW feeling. The best movie, The Empire strikes back is maybe a 6 as a movie and an 8 in the fantasy/action department.
The movie is mumble jumble stupid, no eye for character or suspense thing. Just a disapointment!
On January 26 2018 00:14 Logo wrote: I have to admit the more that some complaints are thrown around about the movie (especially Sermokalas pretty blunt ones) the more it makes me like the movie for not being what they wanted it to be, but instead doing a pretty decent job at being what it was.
See, I think that is a strange perspective because I don't see a world where this movie matches Valerian's haul if it doesn't have Star Wars attached. I understand the impulse to cheer subverting Star Wars "tropes" (which IMO are more themes like the Heroes Journey), but then you are better off defending Episode I's scattered and poorly-done-Tarantino-esque ending, or defending Episode II and its campy Bond-like detective story. Indeed, Rogue 1 did a lot of the "anti-Star Wars" things while being distinctly Star Wars with heroes, character development, interpersonal bonds, etc.
Now I wouldn't choose to defend the prequels because they were poorly executed. But if this had been a Star Wars film noir or a film showing to cost of war, or even the resistance having to come to terms that they are, in fact, fighting for re-instituting a corrupt, bankrupt, useless Republic, that was almost as totalitarian as the Empire and that they should be fighting for a federal system where individual planets/solar systems have the power and having one Galactic Power is inherently a fools errand, then I would see this narrative working. All these things would do what I feel like people are claiming this film did, while being Star Wars-y. Instead, I'd argue they did no such thing, and instead just broke a bunch of rules of the particular universe as it had been constructed (much like how in Star Trek new movie #2 they invented warp transmission which made everything else stupid).
On January 26 2018 00:14 Logo wrote: I have to admit the more that some complaints are thrown around about the movie (especially Sermokalas pretty blunt ones) the more it makes me like the movie for not being what they wanted it to be, but instead doing a pretty decent job at being what it was.
My main complaint with TLJ is basically the entire main plot. If it had literally any coherent plot mover I would've enjoyed it a lot more, but absolutely everything surrounding the spaceship chase was stupid. Everything.
I was basically fine with all the character elements. Could've been better, could've been worse, but no serious complaint other than Rey going from zero to OP, but that's passable.
But the spaceship chase, the casino, the escape pods and ships going in and out because storm troopers are blind, there wasn't a single moment in that plot where I could think "someone with a clue wrote this".
On January 26 2018 00:41 Plansix wrote: I am through the roof that I have no idea where the third movie will go. I didn’t think I could be surprised by Star Wars anymore.
Huh. I feel like it's crystal clear where the third movie will go. Rey and Resistance will fight as plucky rebels and destroy a First Order superweapon, Kylo will waffle and ultimately sacrifice himself, and Luke will talk to Rey as a force ghost.
On January 26 2018 00:41 Plansix wrote: I am through the roof that I have no idea where the third movie will go. I didn’t think I could be surprised by Star Wars anymore.
Huh. I feel like it's crystal clear where the third movie will go. Rey and Resistance will fight as plucky rebels and destroy a First Order superweapon, Kylo will waffle and ultimately sacrifice himself, and Luke will talk to Rey as a force ghost.
Yeah, I'm 90% sure the end of the trilogy is going to be same as the original. Resistance wins, Empire loses, Sith gone, lone Jedi to rebuild the illustrious order.
With a force ghost Snoke vs force ghost Vader fight to top it off while Kylo and Rey finally give into their passions and start making sweet love until they get interrupted by Jar Jar Binks who reveals himself to be Darth Plagueis and that it was his masterful planning all along. Rule of two?! I defy the rule of two muahahahaha! And the Jedi force ghost friends will be baffled by this craftiness until they all come together and defeat Jar Jar with the power of friendship before he destroys the galaxy with his new super weapon!
On January 25 2018 08:39 Sermokala wrote: None of the major beats that people will remember the movie for didn't need to happen because they had no real impact on the plot. At the end we're still empire vs rebels where everyone knows the good guys are going to win in the end because force wants balance. Its a terrible movie and people should feel bad for enjoying it just like the transformers movies.
Have you considered that maybe watching movies isn't really your thing?
On January 26 2018 00:41 Plansix wrote: I am through the roof that I have no idea where the third movie will go. I didn’t think I could be surprised by Star Wars anymore.
No one does, if that helps. It's all up to JJ Abrams.
On January 26 2018 00:41 Plansix wrote: I am through the roof that I have no idea where the third movie will go. I didn’t think I could be surprised by Star Wars anymore.
That's because they've set up very little. Almost everything that was established in the first was uprooted in the second... and the first had pretty much uprooted the ending of the Return of the Jedi.
Random Encounters table of enemies are equally surprising, but it doesn't make for a cohesive trilogy. Roll a die, and see what enemy you face next. And I think that's one thing this new series is not: it's not a trilogy. They don't know what the story is from movie to movie and are just making it up as they go along- it worked alright for Lucas, but then he'd been playing in this world for years and years and then he was the story guy all through out.
I wonder if Yoda and Luke will show up halfway through the final film and just call down force lightning on Kylo
Killing the only villain left halfway through the film, now there's a subversion for you. Turns out the real villain was Poe the entire time! Surprise upon surprise. Oh, and Rey retires at the beginning of the film to some water planet.
For something completely different, when I first watched, I didn't really know what the Empire's weapons could and could not do, so when the Dreadnaught showed up and blasted the base, I thought, well alright invented a pretty crazy siege ship. A base buster... but it turns out that weapon can be used against fleets. "It's a fleet killer". ...so the opening salvo ought to have destroyed that Rebel cruiser, which was in obvious visual range- and at basically the same distance nine (film) minutes later when they retarget the auto-laser at the cruiser. Then you have all the time in the world to pummel the base. Pretty standard for every siege every, isn't it? Cut off the means of escape and then lay siege?
The commander says his fighters should have launched five minutes ago as though someone seriously messed up... but isn't that him? He's the commander of his own dreadnaught. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least most of the military decisions made some sort of sense. In this one, everyone is incompetent.
edit. Another thing Last Jedi forgot. It's was kinda a thing that Finn needed a pilot... he couldn't fly. Except suddenly he does. This film supposedly follows immediately the first, unless this is the Matrix where you can download new skills, we just really don't care about what facts were already established. The forced withdrawal of the TIE fighters still bothers me- they had the ships dead to rights and what potential counter to the TIEs was eliminated by Kylo's hangar attack. Everything military related (including those stupid bombers) seems designed to hack together a very particular and convoluted scenario, needing to use Reasons to get there, but ignoring all the onscreen, established facts that would prevent that from happening. Good dramatic tension is not built upon such contrivances.
It's was kinda a thing that Finn needed a pilot... he couldn't fly. Except suddenly he does. This film supposedly follows immediately the first, unless this is the Matrix where you can download new skills, we just really don't care about what facts were already established.
Did the movie ever break this? The only flight Finn took was on a transport ship to the casino planet and he did that with Rose and BB-8 so presumably they handled a lot of the flying? I don't remember what they showed on the scene where they are on the ship though. Poe was also part of sending them on their way so presumably he'd have a chance to give a crash course (I guess literally since they crash landed on the beach)
He did fly the salt duster thing, but very poorly and basically needed help to just go in a straight line.
The forced withdrawal of the TIE fighters still bothers me- they had the ships dead to rights and what potential counter to the TIEs was eliminated by Kylo's hangar attack. Everything military related (including those stupid bombers) seems designed to hack together a very particular and convoluted scenario, needing to use Reasons to get there, but ignoring all the onscreen, established facts that would prevent that from happening. Good dramatic tension is not built upon such contrivances.
It seems like there was nothing to gain by continuing to be out there? Like the Tie fighters weren't going to blow up the whole ship themselves and the ship was already pretty crippled so being all risk and no benefit they were called back.
It's Finn that's doing the piloting- it wouldn't matter if a couple years passed. + Show Spoiler +
But as it seems exactly no time has passed and it was such a big deal that he couldn't just steal a transport ship of the Starkiller base, he had to bother rescuing an enemy prisoner of all things, it would behoove the movie to fill that piece in. But this is a movie where nobody learns anything, they just do things as the plot requires.
What I'd like in the third film is for there to be yet another fleet killing ship, even bigger than the last, but Finn was also a janitor on that one too, and in the one really critical part that they need to get to. And then the silver stormtrooper shows up as a guard of it and, says something threatening, trips over her feet and falls down another giant catwalk. They could do that trick forever.
It seems like there was nothing to gain by continuing to be out there? Like the Tie fighters weren't going to blow up the whole ship themselves and the ship was already pretty crippled so being all risk and no benefit they were called back.
How is that? We saw Kylo take out the Hangars and another two guys take out the bridge. Keep swarming and you'll take out the engines. Problem solved.
On January 27 2018 00:28 Falling wrote: It's Finn that's doing the piloting- it wouldn't matter if a couple years passed. + Show Spoiler +
But as it seems exactly no time has passed and it was such a big deal that he couldn't just steal a transport ship of the Starkiller base, he had to bother rescuing an enemy prisoner of all things, it would behoove the movie to fill that piece in. But this is a movie where nobody learns anything, they just do things as the plot requires.
What I'd like in the third film is for there to be yet another fleet killing ship, even bigger than the last, but Finn was also a janitor on that one too, and in the one really critical part that they need to get to. And then the silver stormtrooper shows up as a guard of it and, says something threatening, trips over her feet and falls down another giant catwalk. They could do that trick forever.
It seems like there was nothing to gain by continuing to be out there? Like the Tie fighters weren't going to blow up the whole ship themselves and the ship was already pretty crippled so being all risk and no benefit they were called back.
How is that? We saw Kylo take out the Hangars and another two guys take out the bridge. Keep swarming and you'll take out the engines. Problem solved.
All the shields were focused on the rear if I'm not mistaken which is why the tie fighters were able to hit the bridge to begin with? So taking out the engines seems like a long shot.
and yeah it's unfortunate they put Finn in the pilot's seat for that scene, but that seems pretty minor, but something that could have been strictly better? If the scene was shot with Rose in the seat then it'd work fine, so it's not like the plot is hinging on Finn suddenly being a pilot. It's always frustrating when there are minor mistakes that seems like they would be easy to fix.
On January 18 2018 07:57 Plansix wrote: I generally accept the theory that if there are laser swords that can cut through anything, someone would make armor and weapons to deal with that. Like fast. And those weapons might still be around after the jedi are gone, because they were just dope. It never seems that crazy that the standard issue blaster might not be that awesome all the time in the galaxy of Star Wars.
Okay, I've been busy lately, so I'm responding to this a little late, but I'm enough of a Star Wars nerd to geek out pretty hard here.
Lightsabers are cool, but objectively terrible weapons for non-Jedi.
1. They are melee weapons in a world where the only applications for melee weapons are by police (Cloud City), criminals (Jabba's barge), or bodyguards (Grievous, Palpatine, Snoke)... that is, people who can reasonably expect to be surprised at close range. If you aren't a Jedi, you can't deflect blaster bolts and you're super hosed if someone shoots you.
2. They aren't actually lazerswords. They use fields of unpredictably swirling particles that, while fairly light, exert significant gyroscopic forces on the hilt. Jedi are attuned to this and compensate for it (or even make use of it), but non-Jedi just have a sword that moves weirdly even when stationary.
3. Futhermore, while lightsabers are powerful, Star Wars is full of powerful weapons. Ordinary blasters go through most conventional armor and even blast large chunks out of metal bulkheads with ease. Kinetic weapons have been largely phased out despite their niche uses (and significant advantages in range/accuracy) simply because they aren't powerful enough to keep up.
4. This leads to the final point that Jedi duels aren't really "fencing" in any recognizable sense. Imagine fencing someone who's a telepath, has slight precognition, lightning reflexes, and can perform casual telekinesis. If you're also all those things, you might just hang in the fight. If you're not, any skill you have with melee weapons is basically worthless.
This is why "practice" fencing is not really a major goal of Jedi instruction. Luke is never trained in lightsabers by Yoda. He is trained to center himself, clear his mind, and reach out. Because prowess with the force IS skill with a lightsaber. Kylo loses to Rey because she was more in touch with the force at that moment. She anticipated his moves better than he anticipated hers.
Incidentally, this also applies to piloting. This is why Vader says "the force is strong with this one" when he's having trouble getting a lock on Luke. They're both reaching out with their feelings, trying to predict and head off one another.
On January 27 2018 00:28 Falling wrote: It's Finn that's doing the piloting- it wouldn't matter if a couple years passed. + Show Spoiler +
But as it seems exactly no time has passed and it was such a big deal that he couldn't just steal a transport ship of the Starkiller base, he had to bother rescuing an enemy prisoner of all things, it would behoove the movie to fill that piece in. But this is a movie where nobody learns anything, they just do things as the plot requires.
What I'd like in the third film is for there to be yet another fleet killing ship, even bigger than the last, but Finn was also a janitor on that one too, and in the one really critical part that they need to get to. And then the silver stormtrooper shows up as a guard of it and, says something threatening, trips over her feet and falls down another giant catwalk. They could do that trick forever.
It seems like there was nothing to gain by continuing to be out there? Like the Tie fighters weren't going to blow up the whole ship themselves and the ship was already pretty crippled so being all risk and no benefit they were called back.
How is that? We saw Kylo take out the Hangars and another two guys take out the bridge. Keep swarming and you'll take out the engines. Problem solved.
All the shields were focused on the rear if I'm not mistaken which is why the tie fighters were able to hit the bridge to begin with? So taking out the engines seems like a long shot.
and yeah it's unfortunate they put Finn in the pilot's seat for that scene, but that seems pretty minor, but something that could have been strictly better? If the scene was shot with Rose in the seat then it'd work fine, so it's not like the plot is hinging on Finn suddenly being a pilot. It's always frustrating when there are minor mistakes that seems like they would be easy to fix.
The thing about the Finn pilot problem is actually it is a very concrete example of what a lot of people are complaining about, so its not that small. The complaints I am talking about generally boil down to people feeling like the Writers & Director: 1) Haven't watched the old movies; 2) Didn't Pay attention; and/or 3) Hated the old movies.
So its like, "well these guys couldn't even pay attention to Episode 7, no wonder they added a bunch of stuff that makes no sense like light speed ramming, force skyping, Leia corpsewalking, force holograms, Akbar being replaced by a dumb new admiral, stupid super Snoke, etc."
And I''ll add that Johnson has not made things better after he's gotten a little criticism, and it makes the fans think more and more that actually the answer is 3) He hates Star Wars.
"2. They aren't actually lazerswords. They use fields of unpredictably swirling particles that, while fairly light, exert significant gyroscopic forces on the hilt. Jedi are attuned to this and compensate for it (or even make use of it), but non-Jedi just have a sword that moves weirdly even when stationary."
This is completely incorrect, anyone can use a lightsaber, it's just that since it has no weight you have to have lightning force like reflexes to not injure yourself. Case in point is when Boba Fett wielded Darth Vader's lightsaber against him and was clumsy as hell with it but still able to wield it since he is more or less an elite soldier. General Grievous was a duelist to the point where he was able to defeat many Jedi, and he was obsessed with the fact that he had no force sensitivity.
"This is why "practice" fencing is not really a major goal of Jedi instruction. Luke is never trained in lightsabers by Yoda. He is trained to center himself, clear his mind, and reach out. Because prowess with the force IS skill with a lightsaber. Kylo loses to Rey because she was more in touch with the force at that moment. She anticipated his moves better than he anticipated hers."
This is more then wrong, it's total bullshit. Palpatine states explicitly in Plagueius the book that he was in depth instructed in every known form of saber combat by his master as most Sith are, where as Jedi train only in forms that they enjoy/are personally good at.
I didn't have too much of an issue with the rest of your post but those two quoted statements are just wrong wrong wrong.
@clutz Yes, that's exactly it. In the grand scheme of things, it's pretty minor- the shot is like a second long. However, it is emblematic of the over-arching problem of the film- it's really bad at internal consistency. You don't need to get every detail right, but you do need to get enough details right to feel like you were actually paying attention to what was established before and how things work from movie to movie... and even scene to scene in your own movie.
On January 27 2018 06:46 Beelzebub1 wrote: "2. They aren't actually lazerswords. They use fields of unpredictably swirling particles that, while fairly light, exert significant gyroscopic forces on the hilt. Jedi are attuned to this and compensate for it (or even make use of it), but non-Jedi just have a sword that moves weirdly even when stationary."
This is completely incorrect, anyone can use a lightsaber, it's just that since it has no weight you have to have lightning force like reflexes to not injure yourself. Case in point is when Boba Fett wielded Darth Vader's lightsaber against him and was clumsy as hell with it but still able to wield it since he is more or less an elite soldier. General Grievous was a duelist to the point where he was able to defeat many Jedi, and he was obsessed with the fact that he had no force sensitivity.
"This is why "practice" fencing is not really a major goal of Jedi instruction. Luke is never trained in lightsabers by Yoda. He is trained to center himself, clear his mind, and reach out. Because prowess with the force IS skill with a lightsaber. Kylo loses to Rey because she was more in touch with the force at that moment. She anticipated his moves better than he anticipated hers."
This is more then wrong, it's total bullshit. Palpatine states explicitly in Plagueius the book that he was in depth instructed in every known form of saber combat by his master as most Sith are, where as Jedi train only in forms that they enjoy/are personally good at.
I didn't have too much of an issue with the rest of your post but those two quoted statements are just wrong wrong wrong.
I'm going out on a limb and saying if you're using Plagueis and Boba Fett with a lightsaber as evidence in an argument, we're going to disagree on what canon "counts." Absolutely there's lots of stuff out there about "lightsaber forms" and that sort of silliness... but the old canon and the firm indication throughout the movies is that lightsaber fighting is about force techniques and cannot be performed by a non force-sensitive.
Incidentally, lightsabers definitely have weight, or something approximating it. Watch anyone spin a lightsaber in their hands as Rey does in 7 or Obi Wan does pretty much constantly. If the blade was weightless, you'd spin (moulinette) a lightsaber around its middle, like spinning a pencil. It is weighted, however, and is instead spun around a point close to emitter, similar to the way it works with an actual sword.
I was inspired enough that I threw together my own version with "Can't Stop The Feeling" Justin Timberlake. Fun little exercise, and without thinking too hard, I can think of quite a few songs that could also work.
Yeah the footloose is my favorite as well, the only one where the chain-grab fits really well. Might have even worked a little better even if he started pulling after the base guitar started, but that would probably screw up the early timing.
Your links aren't working though, at least not for me.
Doesn't work as in you see blanks where there should be tweets? In which case, do you have adblock on- because I know that adblock messes up the tweets that are regularly posted in US Politics.
There is a MOUNTAIN of Rose Tico dolls/action-toys at a crappy discount mall for $1 CDN. Apparently, they were $15 USD at one time. Seeing as the Last Plinkett Review recently posted had a million 80s references in it.. i'll add mine....
I guess there is no room left in the ET Cartridge landfill site for these Rose Tico dolls.
I must confess. It will probably be the first SW movie that I will not go to see at a cinema. The Last Jedi left a very strong distaste in me and I don't think I'm ready to suffer another blow like that.
Completely agreed. I don't even rember what the f happened in the last 2 movies, all I know is that I don't give a damn about what happens to any of these characters in this "epic saga". Pretty incredible how hard Disney managed to fuck up a billilon dollar franchise within a span of 4 years.
I am gonna watch it in Cinema. But the trailer made it look pretty bad, but star wars is like pizza even when its bad it still taste pretty good, and this seems like Hawaiian with extra pineapple.
I’m going to watch it, but without the expectation that it will be very good. Avoiding watching any trailers past the teaser, and just going to hope to be pleasantly surprised. I don’t think I can avoid watching it, being a long-time Star Wars fan, but I definitely do have the residual bitterness we have talked about here so far. I don’t know how to make the story work from where it left off, but maybe Abrams will do a better job than we had ever given him credit for. I hope so.
Are they litterally running on an Imperial Star Destroyer ?
Like : - Either they are in space, which is pretty stupid, but given how it turned out before no one knows, they might be that stupid - Or they are in a planet atmopshere, which is equally stupid : how the hell do you make star destroyer enter the atmosphere of a planet ? You litterally need to build orbital docks to produce ships like that.
They might actually be able to ruin 3 films out of 3, and make the first one the best of the lot, which would definitely be no small feat. Anyway, won't ever donate money to the company that ruined the greatest SF franchise there ever was, so, no theatre for me, nor blue ray or DVD
I don't see what the problem is with a star destroyer entering the atmosphere of a planet. Why wouldn't it be able to do so? Other spaceships can enter the atmosphere and operate in space. Since the internal gaseous pressure of spaceships seem comfortable for humans, you can assume the internal pressure is at 1 atm, so entering a planet's atmosphere would progressively give less stress on the internal structure than in space to the point that it would be least stressed at 1 atm.
I ended up watching the trailer after all. To be perfectly honest I’m not seeing the terrible movie everyone else is from the trailer alone. Frankly, most of the complaints I heard have been nitpicks or things that may make more sense in context of the movie itself (horses, new fleets, etc). The real problem, I suspect, is just the loss of faith since Episode 8 and the Solo follow-up, which makes everything else look worse by association. Am I off-base here?
On October 27 2019 09:41 Archeon wrote: isn't there a star destroyer hovering over a city in rogue one? They threw that logic out of the window a long time ago.
Also not spending money on Disney stuff just means that you won't be able watch a hollywood movie ever again.
We'll see about that. Disney is facing some serious trouble with IRS and its shareholders after the recent whistleblower event, where it was revealed that they grossly overestimated their income for years, count some things several times even if only one unit was sold and generally their finances are a huge mess.
Disney’s annual revenue could have been overstated by as much as $6 billion
The real problem, I suspect, is just the loss of faith since Episode 8 and the Solo follow-up, which makes everything else look worse by association. Am I off-base here?
Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives.
Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift.
Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev.
It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned.
If the ending of ep9 will be anything like the leaks suggest we're heading for a disaster of epic proportions. Fasten your seat belts, batten down the hatches and hang on tight!
The real problem, I suspect, is just the loss of faith since Episode 8 and the Solo follow-up, which makes everything else look worse by association. Am I off-base here?
Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives.
Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift.
Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev.
It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned.
Pretty much my thoughts, though the difference with the above lies in the fact that I lost faith after seeing that JJ wasn’t even able to do ONE good film without rehashing a whole trilogy of the exact same franchise (yes Ep VII, I look at you).
Did not even saw TLJ, just watched review before spending 10€ on a theatre ticket, and it’s pretty safe to say I wasn’t disappointed on waiting.
To expend on the above, it might be seen as nitpicking, but it is also what internal coherence to a universe is. There are rules, instigated by the founders of the universe and people that worked on defining it with them. Obviously, when a universe is expanded as far as the SW one, it is a fact that some things are gonna break those rules, just because there are too many of them. It is just the same as actual real stories, based on our existing world and universe, sometimes are not accurate and violate physics/… rules, just through sheer ignorance of said rules by the writer (no blame shot there, merely fact : our world and universe are really complicated). Two points comes from that:
1. The more you write/film/compose/... about a fictional universe, the more difficult it is to keep the global coherence AND invent new original stories. It’s like a frame: if you write your own story in your own universe, you have to define your own frame (which BTW is fucking incredibly hard). When you write about a fictional universe, you have a frame set. The more material there is on this universe, the more the frame is unbending and its size gets smaller and smaller.
2. When it happens too much through one movie/book/series/song/…, you basically break the willing suspension of disbelief of your watchers/readers/listeners/… From there, you also got two possibilities because it comes to the quality of storytelling :
a. Either the story is “good”, in which case most people will pass on the facts that there was some inconsistencies as long as it served the good story they were told (e.g. : Rogue One) b. Or, the story is considered bad, in which case you basically add-in salt to injury by ruining the story AND the consistency of the universe. A corollary of this point is also that people nitpick even more on the slightest bits of inconsistency ‘cause it supports even more their arguments.
Some examples: sounds and explosion. It is well know that it’s impossible in space, still, it is, for me, impossible, unthinkable even, to make a movie without sounds or explosions in space. However, distance travelling being constantly overlooked is a big deal breaker for me. I’m a huge SW role playing fan, and un-instantaneous travel (even tho it’s above light-speed lmao) is a given : travelling from Coruscant to Tatooine takes time, and it cannot just be wiped out just because (hello Rogue One).
And those internal consistency problems annoys me a lot, just because it is the simplest to fix. Telling a good, original story in an universe like SW is hard, like really fucking hard, given there are so much fans with a diverse opinion that it’s basically impossible to please everyone. However, there are a good deal of SW universe experts out there, like, a lot. Don’t tell me that those multi-million budget movies cannot hire a pool of expert just to take a look at the scenario and correct it, universe-consistency wise. Like, you could even make them do it for free, just giving them the opportunity to read the next SW scenario before everyone.
To sum it up : not only those SW movies have a shit-tier story, giant plot holes, unlikable characters and so on, but it even breaks a loooooooot of the authors/fans-agreed consistency of the SW universe, all in service (again) of a bad story. That makes quite a lot of things to overlook to enjoy a movie, a bit too much for me.
Concerning the “bigger’s always better” point of view of Hollywood nowadays, I find it pretty funny given the critical acclaim of some of the smallest battles received in recent history. IIRC, Battle of Bastards, or even HardHome episodes of GoT are amongst the best noted by critics, yet they feature only small army numbers compared to others waaaay larger battles in the series. It illustrate nicely the fact that viewers enjoy small, tactical and qualitative battles above giant clownfiesta where you can hardly apprehend what’s going on on your screen given how much things there is (even though giant clownfiesta are sometimes also satisfying, if made right and consistently with the universe ). And yet, movies after movies, all you get is bigger and bigger and bigger, sometimes (often ?!) to the detriment of the universe/story building POV.
I thought the first trailer/teaser was abysmal. This one was way better, the horses were the only thing that bugged me.
A little torn in general. I think JJ has what it needs to tell a good story, but Rian really didn't make it easy for him and I don't like the Palpatine idea at all. But I enjoyed episode 7 and thought that 8 had massive pacing issues and plot holes but had redeeming qualities in the depiction of characters within the movie.
@SkrollK: It's pretty easy to say that they should have hired some experts when there's nothing that evaluates who is an expert and who is not. I'd have hired some wookiepedia staff, but even then I'd expect them to argue a lot since Star Wars isn't very precise on a lot of things to begin with and a lot of the explanations that are flying around are just theories.
Like yes, I doubt Rian Johnson even bothered, but I can see why there'd be a problem even if the directors bothered.
On October 29 2019 07:51 Archeon wrote: I thought the first trailer/teaser was abysmal. This one was way better, the horses were the only thing that bugged me.
A little torn in general. I think JJ has what it needs to tell a good story, but Rian really didn't make it easy for him and I don't like the Palpatine idea at all. But I enjoyed episode 7 and thought that 8 had massive pacing issues and plot holes but had redeeming qualities in the depiction of characters within the movie.
@SkrollK: It's pretty easy to say that they should have hired some experts when there's nothing that evaluates who is an expert and who is not. I'd have hired some wookiepedia staff, but even then I'd expect them to argue a lot since Star Wars isn't very precise on a lot of things to begin with and a lot of the explanations that are flying around are just theories.
Like yes, I doubt Rian Johnson even bothered, but I can see why there'd be a problem even if the directors bothered.
Please no Wookiepedia folks :p
On a more serious point, Star Wars is a bloated franchise with pockets of a fan base that pull in totally different directions.
The original films are simple enough character-driven films where not a huge amount is explained, or needed explanation.
Conversely the extended universe and those who enjoy that explain all sorts of things about the world, how things work, technical things etc. In a way Trekkies have done since time immemorial.
Back in the day the properties were suitably different that ‘Star Wars or Star Trek?’ did split people into camps, although obviously many like both.
You can’t make a film that appeals to both, really IMO. You can make films that are more coherent and make more sense though, for sure.
I’d just say fuck the fans and that Disney should have focused more on making a new general audience trilogy for the next generation of potential fans and explored different niches with side films.
The real problem, I suspect, is just the loss of faith since Episode 8 and the Solo follow-up, which makes everything else look worse by association. Am I off-base here?
Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives.
Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift.
Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev.
It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned.
I'm willing to accept some level of handwave with Star Wars; I don't think it's a franchise for which a "Star Trek" style nitpicking strategy is really a good idea. Otherwise, I'd say that even something like the Ep 5 -> Ep 6 fleet growth is fairly jarring. On some level, you have to accept it for what it is if it isn't totally absurd, and we didn't even get the actual explanation in hand yet to know if it is or isn't absurd.
What is pretty clear, though, is that Johnson failed quite badly at the "shared storytelling" aspect and that it will be colossally difficult to recover. And as far as JJ goes - I've seen him as a director who is generally quite strong at character development, but whose plot-writing abilities are pretty weak. Maybe that'd be enough to carry this movie into a respectable finish; it's certainly hard to see how that happens. I don't think I've ever seen Star Wars morale quite this low overall. I think the Solo blunder really solidified the pessimism that folks have had over the Disney generation of Star Wars.
The real problem, I suspect, is just the loss of faith since Episode 8 and the Solo follow-up, which makes everything else look worse by association. Am I off-base here?
Probably not too far off. I mean, as personal preference I find horses in space movies jarring. There's something inherently western or medieval to them. For instance, I love me some Firefly, but the episode with horses is still jarring. Somehow it's dissonant- at least to me. But because faith in the story teller has been lost, we're no longer captivated by the spell of the Secondary World and are on the outside looking in. And at that point, we are far more likely to see the negatives.
Having said that, there are some very obvious negatives that I see in the trailer though they all flow out of Rian not knowing how to set up a dang trilogy and just cutting off all story threads to leave the story stranded and adrift.
Killed the last villain/ undermined the remaining two to tantrum child and punching bag? Forget that, we got a new villain in the final act: Old Man Palp is back! Rebels levelled down to one freighter worth of Rebels? Forget that noise, we conjured up another massive fleet. I'm sure they've got some sort of handwave (but from their track record will only be handwave and no explanation "interesting story for another time".) But any handwave, necessitates the question: so why did no-one answer the call in TLJ/ where were all those ships and crews hiding? By rights there's no successful resistance for the next half century. Space Stalin won- try again under Galactic Gorbachev.
It's similar to my least favourite part of Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where we go from a century long winter to these giant Lord of the Rings armies. Hollywood keeps making the mistake that copy-paste bigger and bigger armies are better and to hell with logic. How about smarter battles with big personal stakes, not bigger battles with meh stakes? But we're expecting JJ to hit a home run- heck I'd be satisfied with a single- when Rian threw the ball away, broke the bat and hid all the plates. Pretty near impossible to do anything with what he left- far as I'm concerned.
I'm willing to accept some level of handwave with Star Wars; I don't think it's a franchise for which a "Star Trek" style nitpicking strategy is really a good idea. Otherwise, I'd say that even something like the Ep 5 -> Ep 6 fleet growth is fairly jarring. On some level, you have to accept it for what it is if it isn't totally absurd, and we didn't even get the actual explanation in hand yet to know if it is or isn't absurd.
What is pretty clear, though, is that Johnson failed quite badly at the "shared storytelling" aspect and that it will be colossally difficult to recover. And as far as JJ goes - I've seen him as a director who is generally quite strong at character development, but whose plot-writing abilities are pretty weak. Maybe that'd be enough to carry this movie into a respectable finish; it's certainly hard to see how that happens. I don't think I've ever seen Star Wars morale quite this low overall. I think the Solo blunder really solidified the pessimism that folks have had over the Disney generation of Star Wars.
100% on that. The problem with The Last Jedi was the holes weren’t of the size that only nitpickers can see. The whole Holdo thing was just, ridiculous for two reasons.
1. Why didn’t she tell Poe etc her plan? Ok maybe there’s the ‘there are spies on board’ to vaguely explain that, but it’s obviously not going to be him if nothing else. So there’s a mutiny because a plan that presumably he’d be down with is not revealed to him because, why?
2. Hyperspace suicide bombing. You really don’t have to be a lore nerd to question this in the ‘oh wait this is a thing? Why hasn’t everyone been doing this?’ Any ship of basically any size with a functioning hyperdrive could have just suicided the Death Star. I don’t actually know what the lore explanation on Wookiepedia for light speed actually is, but there’s never even been an accident of this type across the whole galaxy?
Point 2 goes beyond lore nitpicking for me and into completely jarring ‘new rules’ to the universe and is just silly. Point 1 annoyed me more just in terms of a ‘characters behaving coherently’ sense.
On October 29 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote: 1. Why didn’t she tell Poe etc her plan? Ok maybe there’s the ‘there are spies on board’ to vaguely explain that, but it’s obviously not going to be him if nothing else. So there’s a mutiny because a plan that presumably he’d be down with is not revealed to him because, why?
Glaring faults with Ep 8 are not hard to come by, but this one in particular is one that I wanted to expand on. This noted problem is part of what seems like a general character assassination of Poe (and Hux gets a similar treatment, for that matter). He's blamed for deploying fighters to prevent the destruction of their retreating ship because the fighters died; I'm sure those fighters would be much appreciated if they were to have nothing left to protect. And then he's painted as reckless for taking matters into his own hands when, even in the context of what the movie eventually shows, it's clear that his superiors are playing the silly game of keeping secrets to themselves as a power play. That's not being careful to avoid spies, that's just exactly what happens when idiots get power and want to revel in their privileged access to that knowledge.
Fuck, by the standards of this movie, destroying the Death Star in Episode 4 would have been reckless because of how many fighters were destroyed in the process.
Otherwise, I'd say that even something like the Ep 5 -> Ep 6 fleet growth is fairly jarring.
I don't think so- There's a clear progression. IV the Rebellion consists of a base and a bunch of snub fighters (so far as we are shown, though there's no limiting factor for branches of rebel cells.) V opens with a new sort of fighter, but in the end we see that all those transports ships and it turns out they have a small fleet now. Although they are pushed out into space- the existence of small capitals ships- the Nebulon-B Frigate creates the feeling of progression.
Then once Han is rescued we find the Rebellion is snowballing support- even bigger capital ships, aliens are joining in large numbers (Both the Mon Calamari seen on screen and the Bothans referenced offscreen.) Plus the introduction of more civies in administrative roles- the Rebellion is bigger. But even still, it's not such a large fleet- I count four star cruisers, one or two frigates, a bunch of blockade runners and slew of those transports ships (for some reason). Plus the Original never made the mistake of saying 'this is all there is'- it's therefore easy to assume there are other branches of the Rebellion that are making moves and have consolidated everything together in a do or die mission.
TLJ made the mistake of limiting what the Resistance was. Holdo: "There are four hundred of us... on three ships. We're the very last of the Resistance. But we're not alone. In every corner of the galaxy... the downtrodden and oppressed know our symbol... and they put their hope in it."
So it's clear- this is the last. There's no other cells kicking around. No Procurement and Supply, no Reconnoiter, no other Resistance ships hiding around- these are the last- and by the end every single ship is destroyed other than the Falcon and they're left with a dozen. That's the whole Resistance
And those allies?
When the time comes- the Black Arrow is sent and Rohan does not ride. Helm's horn is sounded but Gandalf and Erkenbrand to not appear with 3000 on foot.
Instead "They've heard us, but no one's coming."
So to suddenly have a giant fleet makes zero sense. Destroying a third Death Star (not to mention the Death Star's attack in the first place) ought to have rallied the galaxy- but it didn't. Then blowing up the siege ship and Snoke's capital ship (and Snoke) ought to have rallied the galaxy- but even that couldn't convince them. Luke dying is an even worse reason for the galaxy to join. If they gave up before, there's no reason to join now when they didn't for reasons that one hundred times better. So it doesn't follow- magic fleet- but will probably have an unconvincing handwave. Quite frankly, by the end, I thought everyone sucked and just wanted the First Order to win. Cheering for Lawful Stupid isn't that much fun. Kill 'em and start over with a more competent rebellion.
I don't think it's hard to imagine a source of ships, in the grand scheme of things - the galaxy is a big place, the now-dying Republic is a large organization, and there certainly must be some amount of time to allow for all this stuff to come together. A story could be, as troubling as all the Resistance faced may have been, the rest of the galaxy was too afraid to take a stand against the invincible-looking force that the First Order is, which is why no help was on the way. Years later, maybe that could all come together.
Though you would be right to note that there really isn't much setup for that. The movie seemed to suggest that all the help would come from the "downtrodden" like the children from the gambling planet, which doesn't really inspire that kind of revolution.
I'm imagining some level of retcon to Ep 8 to make all that's happening here make sense. Maybe a timelapse and a couple "oops, we said the stupid thing last movie but didn't actually mean it" admissions. Those generally make a movie worse, but I don't see too many other options, and maybe if the execution is otherwise excellent it could be pulled off. We're not even in a "we got to a really cool place in a way that makes no sense" state, from which it'd make sense to just roll with it; some level of continuity-break is necessary to fix the last movie for sure.
On October 29 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote: 1. Why didn’t she tell Poe etc her plan? Ok maybe there’s the ‘there are spies on board’ to vaguely explain that, but it’s obviously not going to be him if nothing else. So there’s a mutiny because a plan that presumably he’d be down with is not revealed to him because, why?
Glaring faults with Ep 8 are not hard to come by, but this one in particular is one that I wanted to expand on. This noted problem is part of what seems like a general character assassination of Poe (and Hux gets a similar treatment, for that matter). He's blamed for deploying fighters to prevent the destruction of their retreating ship because the fighters died; I'm sure those fighters would be much appreciated if they were to have nothing left to protect. And then he's painted as reckless for taking matters into his own hands when, even in the context of what the movie eventually shows, it's clear that his superiors are playing the silly game of keeping secrets to themselves as a power play. That's not being careful to avoid spies, that's just exactly what happens when idiots get power and want to revel in their privileged access to that knowledge.
Fuck, by the standards of this movie, destroying the Death Star in Episode 4 would have been reckless because of how many fighters were destroyed in the process.
Indeed, if they’d set the ground with Poe actually being reckless and getting a lot of people killed then you can maybe take that angle that this ‘lesson’ is merited. Whereas as it’s presented one is just screaming at the screen going ‘just tell Poe damnit.’
Reminds me a bit of that infuriating comedy trope where two characters like each other, one person sees the other one in an innocent situation that looks anything but from their angle, or only hears one side of a phone conversation. Person storms off and drama ensues even though it’s ridiculous and in real life you’d be like ‘that was my mum on the phone, I can see how you got the wrong idea though!’
If I was JJ I would almost certainly have a timeskip at some point in this movie. One-two scenes with Leia, she passes away, timeskip 3-5 years and have the "not-Rebellion" built back up after success of guerrilla raids against a poorly-administered First Order. Raises stakes for the larger battles, allows them a chance, get to have some trademark JJ mystery boxes about what happened in the skip for potential EU expansion.
I don't think even 3-5 years are enough. The not-Rebellion is in the same place as the Rebellion was at the end of Episode III. Need a very large time jump and maybe a couple more movies.
Or just imitate Rian and do it all in the opening crawl. :/ First line:
There is too much shuffling going on amongst the top creatives in Disney Star Wars. The making of Solo saw the directors fired and Ron Howard redid the movie. I don't think Ron Howard has contributed to anything Star Wars since then. There are rumblings of re-shooting going on with the movie coming out in December.
so they are abandoning a Star Wars trilogy that could make them immortal legends on par with George Lucas so they can do a Netflix series? LOL. oh how the mighty have fallen.
Lucas built the Star Wars franchise like Vince Mcmahon built the WWE. Lucas built Star Wars from nothing and from the ground up. No one at Disney Star Wars has both Lucas' pedigree and Lucas' decision making power when he was in charge.
Obviously, there is a tonne of talent at Disney. Unfortunately, the people at the top are not managing the franchise and the talent properly.
Why are these guys yapping away about George Lucas in their statement of resignation? Is this a sign of back-biting and in-fighting? The proper way to do things is to resign and just shut up. This needless hyperbolic drivel about George Lucas just keeps the circus atmosphere going on at Disney Star Wars.
From what I hear about the end of Game of Thrones (and what Beinoff and Weiss have said about themselves just recently), Beinoff and Weiss bogging off is the best news yet for the Star Wars franchise. (I also was reading that they shortened Game of Thrones to work on the Star Wars trilogy... but that clearly went nowhere. I kinda wonder if B&W's stars have faded as well.) Now I'm just waiting to hear that Rian is out and I might have a little hope again. Between RJ's standalone film in the middle of a trilogy and B&W trilogy just vanishing it clearly demonstrates the lie that the Star Wars franchise is anything like the pre-planned Marvel phases. The forethought shown so far has been laughable.
Nonetheless, the Mandalorian is looking more and more interesting, so fingers crossed (hope springs eternal as they say).
IIRC RJ mentioned that there were pre-drafts for episode 8 but that he decided to ignore them. If I was JJ I would have murdered him years 10 times by now. Also we know that Disney originally intended to release a SW-movie every year and then the movies didn't work, which forced them to change plans repetitively.
@Beinoff & Weiss: For most of GoT their job was to interpret an existing work, which they did a good job at. But friends of mine stated that from the point where Martin's story started to run out the quality started dropping. The reception of the season finale definitely proves them right. So I have respect for their technical skills and ability to manage a big cast, not so much for their storywriting abilities.
“There are scenes where she’s interacting with other characters in a way that is uncanny,” states Abrams. “Hopefully, if it works, it will be an invisible thing and if you didn’t know, you would never know. But we got to tell the story with Leia that we would have told had Carrie lived. And that’s kind of incredible.”
I think we need a policy to spoiler leaks and other possible spoilers. It could really ruin it for someone who wants to experience it for themself for the first time when they watch it.
Well, if any of that is true there'll be a shitstorm like never before...
It's a click bait video made from a 4chan shitpost.
Doomcock (along with numerous other channels) has been following all the rumors, cross-referencing and trying to validate as much as possible. This shitpost is actually pretty in-line with some of the previous rumors and leaks from test screenings, that's why it's got the attention.
Nearly all the leaks are the same, the difference is in the details since there are supposedly like 6 versions floating around as the movie is not finished yet and they can't decide which ending to pick. The one posted above would probably be the worst of the ones revealed so far.
Do we have anyone from Japan here? Apparently they get to see it like a week earlier.
On November 22 2019 16:37 Sermokala wrote: I think we need a policy to spoiler leaks and other possible spoilers. It could really ruin it for someone who wants to experience it for themself for the first time when they watch it.
If you're talking about that YT video it even says spoiler on the title.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZT8hrXO.png)
So very sad.
) will continue being a brat, and Snore will throw bigger lightnings than the Emperor. Ohh I forgot, the comic reliever will breath everytime harder and harder.
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qsW-awQEEEE/maxresdefault.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://schmoesknow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/clone_wars_villains_by_dalvus-d4xtro4.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Hd0gazO.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/VSXGzIz.jpg)
