On December 22 2017 20:14 Volband wrote: If you can shield yourself in space and then levitate back to your ship, then you have some immense Force powers. Which you will never ever use again in the movie, despite being in numerous dire situations. You will never even ATTEMPT to do something and then maybe fail.
They set Leia up as some sort of demi-god, but completely forgot about it. Maybe glaring inconsistency would be a better description, but it is so mind-boggling and powerful that I consider it an actual plot-hole.
edit: for example, the way Snoke died is just simply stupid. They set him up as this all-powerful Sith lord, who can read minds ffs, and then dies a comical death. It is extremely stupid BUT the movie did try to shove down an explanation on our throat. Which was that Snoke got so riled up that he got careless, while Kylo moved his lightsaber the same way he did Luke's. Again, makes you wonder how such an idiot can be a Sith Lord (remember: when Vader betrayed Luke, he hadn't shown any sign of vulnerability before, it was a complete surprise to him), but at least they tried.
So she was supposed to use her amazing force powers of pulling herself forward in a vacuum ... for what exactly?
The movie says Leia prepares herself for the explosion as the proton torpedo destroys her part of the deck. She moves back to the ship, physically and likely mentally exhausted. The rest of the movie she spends somewhat less energetic, but we're to draw a conclusion that she'd be able to stop a large armada or a large ground army? Maybe the Resistance was supposed to create another vacuum down on the planet, and Leia would have been able to pull herself next to the AT-ATs.
Another reading is that it's Rian Johnson's and the crew's way of saying good bye, especially the way the scene is shot. We know that Carrie Fisher is dead, but in our and their minds her legacy lives on. She's stronger than what the world throws at her, and she lives on in our memories.
As for Snoke, what do you think the movie is saying by killing him off? A movie that's essentially about leaving behind one's past and embracing the future. A movie that's about how our optimism in the 60s and 70s didn't lead to a better future, but eventually made things worse. A movie that's about how we need new heroes and fresh hope in order to believe that the world is still worth saving.
On December 22 2017 21:50 Volband wrote: Nostalgia or not, the Prequels, the OT and TFA had a consistent writing and a fluent story. It had its mystery, it had its fun, it had its "that should not be possible" moments, but it was a well-oiled machine. TLJ is entirely different and openly opposes TFA; it's basically a dick-measurement contest between J.J. and Rian, but Rian had to know that being the second in line, he had a story to follow and should not have let his ego get the better off him.
Call TFA as basic as you want, but J.J. did an amazing job passing down the canvas with plenty of room to paint on. Rian burned it for absolutely no good reason, other than to jerk himself off to comments like "RIAN JOHNSON IS SO BRAVE, OMG!!!" It's not bravery, it's stubborn defiance.
The original trilogy retconned much of the first film in the subsequent two films.
The movie is saying that we've seen this story before, there's no need to make another three movies that ape the original trilogy. It's been 40 years. It's time to move on. While we shouldn't forget the past, there's no point re-living it. The world has changed, why can't Star Wars?
That would have been great, but the first film DID ape the original trilogy. Then the second film said, what looked like it was important in the first film didn't really matter, while at the same time not really giving a compelling new story line to look forward to in the final film.
With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Luke died, but wasn't helping anyway, Snoke died and was responsible for all of the New Order's success. That's a pretty great trade for the good guys.
Going into this movie I at least had a feeling that they needed EVERYONE to play their part to defeat Snoke (especially since they have so few rebels left). Instead he died to a light saber on/off switch.
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
On December 23 2017 00:03 Velr wrote: The problem with this movies humour is this:
Fin wakes up (tension) Falls over, liquids… Ahahaha (tension gone) Fin stumbles around the ship, in its leaking liquid suit.. Ahahaha (no tension here) Fin finds Poe, «where is rey?!» (tension builds) Really sad Girl cause her Sister just died catches Fin, which she thinks is a hero, when he wants to abandon them by steeling a rescue capsule (tension!). Tazer and witty remarks Hahahahaha (tension gone) Cart him around and witty remarks ahahaha (fuck tension)
Is this a Sitcom? I guess it is, because it feels like an average bbt or himym episode (and not even one of the early/good seasons).
and this is the only u could think from a 2 hours movie?
Brave people of the resistance being blown to pieces (tension) BB-8 flying over screetching, losing its head then assembling himself again. (no tension)
Rey and Kylo being connected again (tension) Kylo has no shirts on (no tension) Rey calls him something bad while bursting out in tears(tension)
Finn and Rose have to find a way out of the prison (tension) BB-8 bound and gagged 4 prison guards all alone (no tension)
On December 22 2017 20:14 Volband wrote: If you can shield yourself in space and then levitate back to your ship, then you have some immense Force powers. Which you will never ever use again in the movie, despite being in numerous dire situations. You will never even ATTEMPT to do something and then maybe fail.
They set Leia up as some sort of demi-god, but completely forgot about it. Maybe glaring inconsistency would be a better description, but it is so mind-boggling and powerful that I consider it an actual plot-hole.
edit: for example, the way Snoke died is just simply stupid. They set him up as this all-powerful Sith lord, who can read minds ffs, and then dies a comical death. It is extremely stupid BUT the movie did try to shove down an explanation on our throat. Which was that Snoke got so riled up that he got careless, while Kylo moved his lightsaber the same way he did Luke's. Again, makes you wonder how such an idiot can be a Sith Lord (remember: when Vader betrayed Luke, he hadn't shown any sign of vulnerability before, it was a complete surprise to him), but at least they tried.
So she was supposed to use her amazing force powers of pulling herself forward in a vacuum ... for what exactly?
Why would you assume that's her only power? It seems a tad bit harder to pull off than "to fly rocks". In fact, one of the most powerful Force usage we've seen in the movies. Sure,Luke outdone her in the end, but still.
Oh man this movie was even worse than TFA. Plotholes as plentyful as a swiss cheese, bad jokes, boring and pointless story, wasted characters. What where they thinking??
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
There was barely a hint that he was even injured the whole fight. In fact he starts punching his wound to show how little effect it was having on him. Then he proceeded to get defeated by an untrained Rey. It was like if Luke had stepped in and stopping Vader from killing Kenobi by beating him in the first movie and then trying to make Vader a credible threat in the following movies. That's hard to do.
If Kylo had spent this movie training with Snoke in a reverse Yoda type situation, and then killed Snoke maybe it could have worked. As it stands, I feel the rebels are in a better situation now with Snoke dead than they were at the start of the movie. They only had ~400 members near the start of the movie, which is a comically small number to over throw a galactic empire. They lost a portion of that 400 and the New Order lost the leader that made their rise to power possible in the first place.
Now they are set up for a situation where logistically it's hard to write a plausible way for the good guys to win, but the bad guys are so incompetent and the heroes so over powering you know that is what will ultimately happen.
Honestly I don't know what the big deal is with Rey being untrained and force sensitive. Sith true bloods on Korriban for example were all very force sensitive and could use it without being trained or having a clue why they could do it, before the Jedi exiles arrived and established the Old Sith Empire*. I know it's no longer canon and belongs to Star Wars legends, but it's still relevant when it comes to stuff like how powerful untrained force users can actually be, without having a proper understanding why. Even little Anakin used the force unknowingly in Episode I or how else would you explain his piloting skills. (*edit: Correction Naga Sadow's arc started later, it's been a while since I've read the golden age comics )
You are right. Not having any tension whatsoever is so much better and avant garde. Too bad Sauron wasn't killed in The Two Towers, I bet the last book would have been an awesome tale of people wandering around aimlessly.
You did not get the point. The point is a villain is killed (assuming he is really dead) halfway the 2nd part of the trilogy means there is a much more bigger villain in the series who is obviously Kylo Ren. Snoke was not built up as the main antagonist like they did with Sauron. Kylo Ren is.
your past can't define you any more than you let it; to truly progress and become stronger you must let old hang-ups go so you can go into your future free of the shackles that the past has lain on you.
it's stated explicitly and implicitly throughout the film
people just wanted another Empire Strikes Back so they can round out what started with The Force Awakens: another rehash, another original trilogy.
it's why studios and large companies stick routinely to formula, as demonstrated by this thread and elsewhere, people say they want something different, when all they really want is more of the same.
if you wanted another original trilogy, go watch the original trilogy.
they're still great movies, and timeless. but at the time that the very first star wars was released by lucas, it broke ground because it dared to use fantasy in a time when films only stayed rooted firmly in grim crime stories and apocalyptic nightmares. it dared to use an orchestra in the time of rock and roll.
the empire strikes back was critically received yet received mixed feelings from the general public because Irvin Kushner broke the simplicity and the timeless coming of age story that the original stayed firmly rooted in.
he created tension, he introduced romance, he let the scrappy rebellion receive the full wrath of vaders fist.
that was what made Empire such a great film.
to make another Empire so many decades later would be a real disgrace to what made the original films brilliant in the first place
While I didn't like the Super-Leia scene mainly for the fact that it felt disconnected and without purpose, in reality you don't need to shield yourself from outer space, so she "only" needed to pull herself to the ship. Which, considering that everyone is pulling lightsabers to them and pushing people away all the time, doesn't sound like that big of a big deal to me. I found Rey's final lifting worse tbh.
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
There was barely a hint that he was even injured the whole fight. In fact he starts punching his wound to show how little effect it was having on him. Then he proceeded to get defeated by an untrained Rey. It was like if Luke had stepped in and stopping Vader from killing Kenobi by beating him in the first movie and then trying to make Vader a credible threat in the following movies. That's hard to do.
If Kylo had spent this movie training with Snoke in a reverse Yoda type situation, and then killed Snoke maybe it could have worked. As it stands, I feel the rebels are in a better situation now with Snoke dead than they were at the start of the movie. They only had ~400 members near the start of the movie, which is a comically small number to over throw a galactic empire. They lost a portion of that 400 and the New Order lost the leader that made their rise to power possible in the first place.
Now they are set up for a situation where logistically it's hard to write a plausible way for the good guys to win, but the bad guys are so incompetent and the heroes so over powering you know that is what will ultimately happen.
You don't see that the one guy is wounded when he's walking slowly/stumbling for 9/10th of the fight with an exhausted look on his face when every other fight has twirling like crazy in it? Also Kylo looses at the end in a strength contest (they both grab each other's hand and Kylo looses on strength) and beat Rey with ease earlier in the same movie.
Compare that fight to the one he has against the knights of Ren.
He's punching the wound to remind the audience that he's wounded.
I'm not arguing that Rey's growth is miraculous and a bit too crass for my taste, but especially in the EU you had lots of ppl who did crazier stuff. And then there's Anakin who is able to pilot at a speed that no other human being can before he hits puberty because he sees part of the future and can react to it. With exactly zero understanding what the force is.
I agree though that I probably would have preferred a timeskip for Kylo that shows that he's been trained further. I think he comes off as stronger than Rey in TLJ, but not to the point where it's unimaginable that Rey beats him. Especially considering that Rey seems to grow faster.
But Kylo is basically the second main character/antagonist Anakin anyways.
On December 23 2017 06:35 CHEONSOYUN wrote: the theme of the movie is this:
your past can't define you any more than you let it; to truly progress and become stronger you must let old hang-ups go so you can go into your future free of the shackles that the past has lain on you.
it's stated explicitly and implicitly throughout the film
people just wanted another Empire Strikes Back so they can round out what started with The Force Awakens: another rehash, another original trilogy.
it's why studios and large companies stick routinely to formula, as demonstrated by this thread and elsewhere, people say they want something different, when all they really want is more of the same.
But this can't be true. My favourite part was when kylo held out his hand to ray to let the past die and to join him in an empire based on balance. No sith no jedi no empire no rebellion nothing of the past. He reveals that she means nothing to the galaxy but she means something to him. He asks her to not let the past define her and to join him, please.
She responds by championing the jedi and the rebellion embracing the past and what other people define her as. She acepts the shackles of the past and.procedes to continue everything before her.
Its the opposite of being brave or changing anything. It turns yet another wonderful premise into yet another gotcha moment.
On December 23 2017 01:53 karazax wrote: With no bigger dark side villain, it's hard to imagine a satisfying ending to this trilogy. There is Kylo, but he already got beat handily by an untrained Rey. I assumed Knights of the Ren were bad mofos and Snoke was the grand leader, but as underwhelming as Snoke was, and no mention of them in this movie, they don't seem like much of a factor. Phasma was underwhelming, and she is gone too (presumably).
The good guys should be fighting an up hill battle at this point of the story for there to be drama. Despite how out numbered they are, their victory seems assured. Rey owns Kylo, BB8/R2D2 can disable anything, Poe can single handedly take down Star Destroyers with his X-Wing, Finn owns all storm troopers, Chewbacca can never be killed and Leia can enter God mode, but mostly chooses not to use the force at all. Any attack the rebels make in a space battle results in astronomically favorable trades for them, and even when a plan fails, it just means nothing great came of it.
Was that Kylo vs Rey fight the one where Kylo had just been shot by Chewie's bowcaster? That same one?
The movie says that the Resistance is all but destroyed. They lost most of their fleet. There's no reinforcements answering their broadcast. Their fighters have been destroyed, most of their pilots killed.
Their great plans resulting in so many casualties that the movie says that it's crazy to depend on pulling off such a crazy plan?
There was barely a hint that he was even injured the whole fight. In fact he starts punching his wound to show how little effect it was having on him. Then he proceeded to get defeated by an untrained Rey. It was like if Luke had stepped in and stopping Vader from killing Kenobi by beating him in the first movie and then trying to make Vader a credible threat in the following movies. That's hard to do.
If Kylo had spent this movie training with Snoke in a reverse Yoda type situation, and then killed Snoke maybe it could have worked. As it stands, I feel the rebels are in a better situation now with Snoke dead than they were at the start of the movie. They only had ~400 members near the start of the movie, which is a comically small number to over throw a galactic empire. They lost a portion of that 400 and the New Order lost the leader that made their rise to power possible in the first place.
Now they are set up for a situation where logistically it's hard to write a plausible way for the good guys to win, but the bad guys are so incompetent and the heroes so over powering you know that is what will ultimately happen.
Just watch that scene with Fin fithing Kylo.. There is nothing even close in the new movie.TFA isn't great by any means, but it did the important stuff right. TLJ is just a failure.
On December 23 2017 04:57 thePunGun wrote: Honestly I don't know what the big deal is with Rey being untrained and force sensitive. Sith true bloods on Korriban for example were all very force sensitive and could use it without being trained or having a clue why they could do it, before the Jedi exiles arrived and established the Old Sith Empire*. I know it's no longer canon and belongs to Star Wars legends, but it's still relevant when it comes to stuff like how powerful untrained force users can actually be, without having a proper understanding why. Even little Anakin used the force unknowingly in Episode I or how else would you explain his piloting skills. (*edit: Correction Naga Sadow's arc started later, it's been a while since I've read the golden age comics )
The idea that a non-trained force user could defeat a trained one isn't the main problem. The problem is making Kylo the biggest threat left when he has already been defeated by Rey once with no training on her part. You don't have to wonder if Rey can beat Kylo, when she has already done it once.
You are right. Not having any tension whatsoever is so much better and avant garde. Too bad Sauron wasn't killed in The Two Towers, I bet the last book would have been an awesome tale of people wandering around aimlessly.
You did not get the point. The point is a villain is killed (assuming he is really dead) halfway the 2nd part of the trilogy means there is a much more bigger villain in the series who is obviously Kylo Ren. Snoke was not built up as the main antagonist like they did with Sauron. Kylo Ren is.
Snoke in the first movie certainly was set up as the villain behind everything that had gone wrong for the good guys since the original trilogy. He lead the conquest of the First Order and he broke Luke Skywalker by turning Kylo. He manipulated Kylo to kill Han Solo. If there was no Snoke, there would be no Kylo.
It's just odd to have Kylo's fall completely change Luke's personality and outlook on life and being a Jedi, and be such a huge plot focus for Kylo and Rey's story line as well, yet completely ignore why Kylo had so much darkness in him in the first place or Snoke's role in corrupting him.
Now the new "main villain" has already been defeated by Rey once. What's the big deal if she beats him again? It's pretty much expected.
i hope i don't get a warning for this or a ban, as i'm 100% serious in what i'm about to say with no intent on being malicious or BM. so i ask that further conversation on this matter be entirely mature and respectful as much as possible. i will do my best to explain my rationale while attempting to not be rude, but i can't promise so if i am to be as clear as possible.
I saw a snippet of an interview with Mark Hamil where he talks about the screen play writing and how he disagrees with the way he was forced to portray Luke. As the script was being written he recalls and says look this isn't the way the "old Luke" of my generation would behave, speaking to the screen writer at the time (I believe it was ryan?). His words were "Jedi's simply don't give up, they regroup. BUT to fit the needs of the movie i realized, this isn't my generation, this is Jedi of THEIR generation. so don't quote me on that interview exactly, as i recalled the back and fourth to the best of my ability. Now, i'll go onto my main point.
From this I realized, how many small influences that perhaps wouldn't otherwise serve in the original series, be forced into this one. My friend's father and I kept discussing the Leia scene as many here are, and there is simply no logical conclusion to it. Leia didn't die prior to the ending, she died after the movie was completed and therefore her death could not have been foretold or skew the plot in anyway. Was there any reason for her to have a show of power there? and now how does that tie to mark Hamil's point? our current generation is a feminist generation. Female protagonist are in fact a very real thing...a show of power from a woman who is weakened from a physical force which otherwise obliterates men, would serve to show women in a strong light. Now i know i stated that quite, bluntly, and i reiterate, it was not malicious and this is simply for discussion. but when put in this context, the entirety of the series and the influences to things we otherwise deem illogical to the original series, makes sense. especially if we use it through the context of Mark Hamil's words of "This MOVIE is for THIS GENERATION.
This generation is currently at a time where we are praising LGBTQ, Feminism, and strong females who come out with sexual accusations. Along with females who should not be "body shamed" Rey, Finn, and the majority of the other cast are quite attractive and physically fit, as actors. Even Kylo Ren put on an enormous amount of muscle mass to then show his gains. BUT the actor who played the Asian female, does not fit those stereotypes.It hits both the agendas of 1. racial inclusion, 2. non tolerance of female body shaming and extreme standards in acting, along with 3. a strong and brave female doesn't have to have looks or etc, etc, etc. the list could go on, this is Hollywood or "Disneywood" and Disney is by far the one company who imo, tries to conform to political correctness when and how it can.
Remember this is hollywood, it's agenda is to appease the audience with relatable characters in it's current generation BEFORE it would ever conform to the roles of the script. there are a lot of things that absolutely make sense if we were to look at it through the lens of feminism and portraying a strong female. and ultimately if we see that everything we couldn't explain was to force the current generation's SOCIAL AGENDA. Hollywood is a genius at portraying these things in visual form... now i can list a few...that have come to mind if i do compile them. Note again, this is not to be malicious or to BM, but to put things into context in terms of how it would make sense if it were to stay congruent to my assertion. some of these stereotypes also furtheremore affect, me. (lol)
1. Women can drive - Especially, asian women. - The scene where finn decides to go on a suicide mission to stop the charging cannon, gets intercepted by the one girl who references her family in the past being one who raised race horses at those casinos.
The rest here i will not go further and list them out but i will list out the strong feminist roles. as i think race is an extremely touchy subject which benefits no one in detailing it here fourth.
2. Feminism - One of the first scenes was an asian woman, finn's gf's, sister, sacrificing herself despite being knocked unconscious. wakes up to show how tough and unemotional she is, to fight in war. these acts are generally shown to portray soldiers mostly men in movies, a recent example is Captain America's story how he jumps on a bomb. these roles in the past generally reserved for men, hamil's words fit perfectly here how this role is now about our generation.
- Leia being knocked unconscious, she was saved in the past, but now despite being blown off a ship, "no longer requires saving" a princess is strong enough to hold her own. also being shown to be extremely logical despite poe's emotional decision making by not reprimanding him for his mutiny. condoning both the decisions of the purple haired commander along with poe's actions. - The purple haired woman who, sacrificed herself for the greater good of others, portrays equality and strength. - almost all of Rey's actions
I see some points where I can imagine the popularity of feminism in Hollywood atm influencing the movie (namely how the two top ranking rebellion characters with dialogue are female while the top brass of the empire is entirely male and the fact that females don't really struggle or fail a lot in this movie). But Luke and the rogue f.e. are chubby and most people in the movie look trained because they are part of the military. I also didn't mind the starting scene at all and liked the cruiser-jump (despite that opening some possibilities they should have kept shut), although I would have liked to see Rose f.e. struggle/despair a bit more, she isn't supposed to be a fighter.
I think the generation difference is that many successful series atm have complex characters that aren't purely black or white. Shows like Mr. Robot, GoT, HoC or BB have main-characters that are weak and often morally grey/black, same with movies like BR2049. Ofc there are still the super-hero movies, but even they aren't always purely white.
Also I found Luke's plot well executed and for the most part believable. I can see how a failure that big would break even his spirit and it explains why he's staying hidden on a small planet with basically 0 inhabitants. Him drawing his sword seems a bit unfitting for the man who converted his father, but I can see that as the "spur of the moment" thing they described it as.
I find it more surprising that nobody is talking about the animal cruelty thing, I found it unfitting despite it being a topic for me IRL. That is definitely in the movie because it's a Hollywood thing.
Watched it again. I suppose I noticed a few things I didn’t see the first time but the bottom line is that unlike with Ep 7, I wasn’t really looking forward to it and I did find it to be a grind to sit and watch it to the end. Guess that sort of settles it for me, this movie just plain failed to deliver.
Also to further note, i don't wish to simply explain the currently un-explainable by quickly jumping onto the whole racial, feminist, agenda. that is too easy, and i simply wished to show how PERHAPS in my theory, these influences can explain somethings we cannot logically deduce or otherwise cannot trace back to any previous starwars. as it does quite obviously come out of left field. But just food for thought, and i'd rather we go back to wrestling with the issue logically and only after exhausting that, use those things as probable reasoning.
On December 23 2017 15:18 Archeon wrote: Also I found Luke's plot well executed and for the most part believable. I can see how a failure that big would break even his spirit and it explains why he's staying hidden on a small planet with basically 0 inhabitants. Him drawing his sword seems a bit unfitting for the man who converted his father, but I can see that as the "spur of the moment" thing they described it as.
I find it more surprising that nobody is talking about the animal cruelty thing, I found it unfitting despite it being a topic for me IRL. That is definitely in the movie because it's a Hollywood thing.
This is a further point which i would like to discuss. Well earlier you wrote, everyone else is trained except the chubby asian girl, finn was supposed to be a pilot? (If i'm not to be mistaken) along with being a soldier. it's to be expected he could pilot an unknown rusty craft, vs someone who's not a soldier or has not had previous flight training (the asian chubby girl) capable of piloting that craft with such precision she was able to intercept him, not kill him, not kill herself (but of course hollywood writes it where she had no control over that) but I digress. My point is, Finn can pilot it, but her, she shouldn't be able to as she wasn't a trained pilot nor a soldier since those ships as far as the starwars movie goes, are war crafts / ships. they are solely for combat. furthermore the movie portrays her sister as a FIT soldier, her, not so much!
I think the animal cruelty is always there, it's to show sympathy for all the creatures, but then again hypocritical since they showed a cute little animal next to chubacca (which was damn adorable) but defeats the point of animal cruelty which is also, we breed things very cruely so that animals can be cute. i think it was more or less the point of to show disgust for the opposition. a place, built on wealth and arms-trading (selling weapons to the empire) is what they stated, would make any and all things lucrative, even animal abuse. But to a further extent you could say it's highlighting the currently acceptable "race horse gambling" which i have no knowledge of, but then again, I personally despise gambling and all forms of it.
Starts off with intense space battle and then a slow plot with Luke and ray, Leia and her crew.
The only subplot that keeps the movie going is fin and rose. And honestly it wasn't very exciting and didn't feel very starwars.
I also find the plot right now is just too focused on ray and kylo. The other characters are unique but definitely in a back seat in a dull kind of way.
Even the prequels had a sense of scale and grandness, it's why I enjoy rogue one quite a lot.