EPTI mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux.
Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi - Page 29
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Sermokala
United States14218 Posts
I mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux. | ||
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saocyn
United States937 Posts
On December 23 2017 16:04 Sermokala wrote: If they wanted to have a femminist message then I would think they would want to push the captian phasma storline as Gwendoline Christie is Literal strong not super pretty but still amazing actor. The movie doesn't value her enough to put the movies time into it when its already 2 and a half hours. I mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux. As i stated, it is only my own speculations, but i feel there are undoubtedly too many instances, and far too many coincidences to outright deny it's influence in it's entirety. Also to note, my main reason for saying it is to explain the things that are otherwise nonsensical, or DO NOT fall into the grand scheme of the story line. They also do not have to push that route and could entirely still portray strong feminist. Just the same way where Finn was portrayed to be a force user in Rogue 1, (In desperation he wielded Luke's saber to defend an unconscious Rey against Kylo) But if the title in this movie "The LAST JEDI" doesn't scrap that tangent, well i don't know what will. :D On another separate note, Ocean's 8 has an all female protagonist cast, so if that isn't evidence of how powerful that influence has on hollywood, quite frankly i don't know what would suffice. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
631 Posts
On December 23 2017 10:27 Sermokala wrote: But this can't be true. My favourite part was when kylo held out his hand to ray to let the past die and to join him in an empire based on balance. No sith no jedi no empire no rebellion nothing of the past. He reveals that she means nothing to the galaxy but she means something to him. He asks her to not let the past define her and to join him, please. She responds by championing the jedi and the rebellion embracing the past and what other people define her as. She acepts the shackles of the past and.procedes to continue everything before her. Its the opposite of being brave or changing anything. It turns yet another wonderful premise into yet another gotcha moment. yes and obi wan clearly didn't understand that anakin had secured peace justice and freedom to his new empire | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
Snoke in the first movie certainly was set up as the villain behind everything that had gone wrong for the good guys since the original trilogy. He lead the conquest of the First Order and he broke Luke Skywalker by turning Kylo. He manipulated Kylo to kill Han Solo. If there was no Snoke, there would be no Kylo. He was there yes. He was showed as the master of Kylo and the one who turned him. But he was not the one built up as the Main antagonist. The dude was not even in the poster. Kylo Ren is this trilogy's vader(but lamer). Even if he died Kylo was already Kylo Ren he is already in the dark side and has a plan of his own. Killing Snoke just showed that kylo ren wont take shit from anyone anymore. It shows that how matter strong you are, if u were betrayed and stabbed in the back you'll be dead. People wanted twists and something new. Rian Johnson delivered. And now some are complaining. Srlsy.. why do even people complain about the back story of Snoke. As if there are back story to Palpatine until ep.1. Has the trilogy ended yet? How sure are these people that disney wont show it on ep 9 or other from other content?. People need to calm down. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
On December 23 2017 16:04 Sermokala wrote: If they wanted to have a femminist message then I would think they would want to push the captian phasma storline as Gwendoline Christie is Literal strong not super pretty but still amazing actor. The movie doesn't value her enough to put the movies time into it when its already 2 and a half hours. I mean even her comic books get hyjacked as a vessel for hux. Phasma was just a marketing tools to get people into the theatre and sell toys, I don't think JJA or RJ ever saw her as something else. Having Christie play her is part of the marketing, I would not say they didn't value her enough but more that Disney value her promotional value and it was all that matter, since everybody could have played her part. She is ironically probably one the most well known actress in the movie outside of SW, Adam Driver and Laura Dern have had some other important role but apart from them it's almost all SW, yet she play the role of an extra. Edit: Oh and Del Toro of course, I had forgot he was in this. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
On December 23 2017 15:39 saocyn wrote: Also to further note, i don't wish to simply explain the currently un-explainable by quickly jumping onto the whole racial, feminist, agenda. that is too easy, and i simply wished to show how PERHAPS in my theory, these influences can explain somethings we cannot logically deduce or otherwise cannot trace back to any previous starwars. as it does quite obviously come out of left field. But just food for thought, and i'd rather we go back to wrestling with the issue logically and only after exhausting that, use those things as probable reasoning. I don't really care why they added things for reasons external to the movie plot. I just care if it made for a good story or not. It doesn't bother me having strong female leads, or mostly minority heroes, or political messages if they it's done well. If those things make the story weaker, then it's because they were executed poorly. Having Leia as a strong force user could be done in a way that works. If they want her to be a strong force user, then make her use the force more. Have her train Rey instead of Luke. Having her never use the force in any capacity before or after she makes herself fly thru space is jarring. Empower her by making her a more impact leader. If she had died in space the story line wouldn't have changed in any significant way. I don't feel any of the main characters have progressed significantly from last movie and I don't feel like any particularly new developments are set up for the next movie either. Rey vs Kylo and resistance vs First Order is what we are left with and that's what we started with. On December 23 2017 18:31 shin_toss wrote: He was there yes. He was showed as the master of Kylo and the one who turned him. But he was not the one built up as the Main antagonist. The dude was not even in the poster. Kylo Ren is this trilogy's vader(but lamer). Even if he died Kylo was already Kylo Ren he is already in the dark side and has a plan of his own. Killing Snoke just showed that kylo ren wont take shit from anyone anymore. It shows that how matter strong you are, if u were betrayed and stabbed in the back you'll be dead. People wanted twists and something new. Rian Johnson delivered. And now some are complaining. Srlsy.. why do even people complain about the back story of Snoke. As if there are back story to Palpatine until ep.1. Has the trilogy ended yet? How sure are these people that disney wont show it on ep 9 or other from other content?. People need to calm down. The emperor didn't matter prior to the Return of the Jedi because they didn't try to make the first 2 movies about Vader and flashbacks to his fall. Note that they did decide to add a whole trilogy to cover that though, where Palpatine was clearly the main antagonist. People complain about Snoke becoming a trivial death because he is responsible for going from a victorious rebellion at the end of Return of the Jedi, to worse off than they were at the start of A New Hope, with minimal explanation. They made the fall to darkness of Kylo the focus of Luke's story line, and the cause of Han's death, but have decided Snoke's role in why it happened didn't matter. The first movie set him up as a powerful force that would take everyone on the top of their game to defeat. The second movie made him seem trivially insignificant for the sake of having something surprising happen. And while it was surprising, it wasn't a satisfying twist for me. If you think it was, we will just have to agree to disagree. Adding twists isn't that hard to do if you just throw make stuff up as you go along and disregard everything that came before as if it didn't happen. Twists are great if they are set up well. Twists just for the sake of something surprising is just bad writing. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
Adding twists isn't that hard to do if you just throw make stuff up as you go along and disregard everything that came before as if it didn't happen. Twists are great if they are set up well. Twists just for the sake of something surprising is just bad writing. Yes I dont know why people right now just like twists for the sake of twists, if that is what the movies need to be enjoyable and good , then everybody "with a brain" could write excellent movies. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
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Archeon
3274 Posts
On December 24 2017 01:27 karazax wrote: Maybe they should have Yoda come back and kill Kylo and Rey and become a sith lord ghost who rules the galaxy, cause you know that would be a surprise twist that nobody saw coming. Except some of the twists were actually set up. Kylo's backstab was prepared a lot f.e. and made sense for Kylo's way of thinking as well as his emotional state of mind. Luke doing his final deed was something they prepared for over the course of the movie as well. Sure there are things like Rey's parents where you could argue that it pisses people off, but the people in question wouldn't have progressed the story in any way and I find it a nice change of pace that the main isn't the chosen one by DNA. Also there are a bunch of asspulls in terms of force power usage, but the only new thing was something done by an old Jedi Master. On December 23 2017 15:56 ETisME wrote: The biggest problem imo is the pacing. Starts off with intense space battle and then a slow plot with Luke and ray, Leia and her crew. The only subplot that keeps the movie going is fin and rose. And honestly it wasn't very exciting and didn't feel very starwars. I also find the plot right now is just too focused on ray and kylo. The other characters are unique but definitely in a back seat in a dull kind of way. Even the prequels had a sense of scale and grandness, it's why I enjoy rogue one quite a lot. That's the biggest criticism I share, the pacing and joke timing are all over the place. Imho some slower talking heavy parts in the early middle could have given it all the feeling of purpose, but even on Ahch-To Rey has basically something going on 24/7 and it feels like the action never really stops. The movie still has some basic concepts/questions and gets some plot lines done, but it felt more like a typical action blockbuster than an epos. Which is a bit of a shame, since there were many scenes I really enjoyed, but they often don't really feel that connected. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On December 24 2017 01:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's not twists for the sake of it being twists though, that's just completely wrong please expand more your idea, I have seen that you love these new movies , and like to "bash" lightly the OT, could you explain better why the twists were so well done? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Pretty much every Star Wars movie i have watched (besides the prequels) would fall into 6-7 territority, so better than average/decent to good. I am not even saying they were especially well done, but it's definitely not twists for the sake of it. The only one where this would be the case is Leia's force moment. Everything else is set up before and serves a purpose for the story. Which "a twist for the sake of it" wouldn't do. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On December 24 2017 01:27 karazax wrote: Maybe they should have Yoda come back and kill Kylo and Rey and become a sith lord ghost who rules the galaxy, cause you know that would be a surprise twist that nobody saw coming. Lol better than any Starwars movie in the last 30 years. | ||
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amyamyamy
76 Posts
For all we know who they were may yet be signicant one way or another - just because Kylo claimed they were insignificant nobodies does not necessarily mean they were - its just a claim. Then again, they might just have been nobodies who abandonned her and they are not to play a part and thats just how it is - but whats so wrong with that? Why would the Force not reach out to a child whose parents werent important characters? + Show Spoiler + im sad how Snoke was killed off just like that - would have loved for his story to have been explored a bit more before Kylo succeded him | ||
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Archeon
3274 Posts
Which is imo understandable, but I don't mind Rey looking for her parents and receiving the most brutal answer. Rey's denial is literally the only fault she has. I wished the revelation would have had more lasting influence in any way though. I get that Rey is the plain main and Kylo is basically the struggling main, but I think Rey could be a little less perfect on occasion. Especially since we see Kylo struggle less the more the movie develops. | ||
Falling
Canada11607 Posts
The movie was interesting when it dealt with Rey, Kylo, and Luke. I hated everything about the Cruiser subplot. I'll have to rewatch it, but as far as I could tell, Finn had no story (unlike Force Awakens- cowardly deserter into rebel) and it really felt like that entire plot line was intended to put them on a treadmill until the movie completed the only story ideas they had, which was Rey and they could join them back together. Anyone read the EU? This was the Lando plotline of the Fifth Fleet series- need to include some secondary characters from the previous stories, and so make random side adventures. The cruiser subplot just insisted on stacking stupidity on stupidity until I buckled despite trying to hold off. I hate all the Rebel commanders- Anyone know Battlestar Galactica? Give me a Helena Cain, or put Admiral Ackbar in charge to die sacrificially. (The actor for Wedge Antilles was right to decline- he'd probably be shot out of an airlock too, having done nothing signficant.) Or at least give me a Laura Roslin. That purple haired commander had zero military presence about her. I now more than ever, resent that we didn't get a proper civil war, where both sides hold territories and shipyards. It undercuts the gains that should have been made from the Original Trilogy- I liked Rose' sister. I hated Rose. I wish their roles were reversed. I can't figure out why, but she somehow felt like the B team that somehow got pulled up into the A team. It's like in Lost where suddenly and random couple is upgraded to main cast and everyone is like 'who the heck are you'... until they suddenly get killed off. How the heck a former janitor and a mechanic can assess some secret new military device by spitballing for a few seconds, never investigating, researching... and be right with pinpoint accuracy, and develop a solution that would've worked except for a traitor... well that is beyond me. Finn's forte should be ground combat or countering boarding parties, but the story didn't give him anything to do that would have played to his skillset- so they give him magical insight into experimental technology on a completely different ship. I would've preferred if Finn had gone off on his own. And then it turns out they fail- so basically that in that entire plot line, nothing was accomplished except to make things worse. Which could have worked if the story arc was Po learning not to be a maverick or something, but it's not Po that goes on the adventure (he's on ice)- it's Finn and he has no real goals except that Rey not come back into the trap... and that's about it. Tolkien wrote (paraphrasing... and maybe interpreting) that a good monster is necessary for a story because the greater the cost of a hero's struggle makes the victory all the more better. I hated the villains. This trilogy is having a Disney or a Marvel problem with it's villains, which for all of Lucas' faults in the prequels, he still knew how to make active and forboding villains, even if he killed them off too soon (Maul). My only hope is now that the story has the cast the die with Kylo, not holding him in flux, we'll get a proper villain in the third film. I still hate Hux. The dreadnought commander had more presence in less films and far less screen time. He's a flunky to be thrown around, but there's nothing about him that is impressive. I was intrigued by Snokes in Force Awaken; I wanted to know more about who he was, where he came from, how learned to become powerful in the Force, and how Kylo fell in with him. Then he died. I get what they are doing with Kylo's story and why Snokes then died. However, it makes Snokes an awful villain (in both films) who does nothing except perform a pale imitation of the Emperor (Saruman playing at Sauron, if you will). I don't like him, and I really don't care to learn anything about him. Zero interest. And Kylo suffers from the same problem of modern Disney films- the surprise villain. The surprise is great, but it means the villains don't spend much time being villains. They need to appear to be good, which means they aren't as memorable as classic villains like Scar, Ursala, Jafar, etc. Well, Kylo isn't much of a surprise in that sense. But the film wants you to think he could go either way (and maybe even Rey could go either way- I was on board for a swap- he is saved, but she becomes corrupted.) But because they needed to keep him ambiguous, after his impressive starfighter battle (which I did like), he had nothing to do until the end. And then to top it all off, they put all their villains on the same stupid treadmill- the entire plan consists of running them out of fuel, and then riddling them with bullets when their car coasts to a stop on the side of the road. It's serviceable, but it's not a good demonstration of the might of the Empire or the cleverness or resourcefulness of the villains. (They also have diminishing returns on their big ships- all they serve to do is blow up, which futher undermines the villains as anything impressive. By contrast Rogue One did a marvellous job of demonstrating what occupied rule looked like- you cared about one town shelled by one Star Destroyer because you actually spent time on the ground, milling around with the peasants. If Last Jedi was a tv show, it could almost be a bottle episode.) By contrast, Darth Vader is constantly shown to be a clever and active villain. He's seeking out the Rebels with probe droids- right away, active. He has special insight that the one structure is the Rebel base, contrary to his analysts- cleverness. He has a good plan that is wrecked by an incompetent inferior- he kills the officer and replaces with another- ruthlessness and does not suffer fools. The Hoth battle is given sufficient breathing room that you feel the might of the Empire despite it being only a handful of ATATs (Transport 1 is away, Transport 1 is away- you feel that relief). He's actively engaged in the ground assault. He tries multiple methods of taking out the Falcon (going into the asteroid field might have overambitious- wreckless). But then he hires bounty hunters- that's cool. He sets a trap, he gets ahead of the Falcon to Lando- that demonstrates foresight) Honestly, everything flows together in a very nice, tightly told story. This one is a mess, and I need to watch again to figure out what they were intending to do. edit. Also. They did a bad job of Phasma the first time. So they brought her back... and did the exact same bad job again! Why would you repeat your error? If they do it a third time, I swear Star Wars will become a farce (change genre, not become a joke). She's a paper tiger that shows up to be defeated- again terrible villains. She needs to be involved in ground combat or boarding parties and this film doesn't give it to her (or Fin). And then they keep finding melee weapons for some reason- it makes more sense in a world of tons of Jedi where they just deflect your blasters back. Again, Rogue One got far better use out of simple blasters, grenades, and rigged explosions than this film did with its crazy contraptions. The casino planet felt like it did not belong in this universe... and then the desire to bloody the noses of a bunch of rich people... is not really a motive that Star Wars heroes have had so far. Felt super out of place. Woohoo! Fight the 1%ers! | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
This movie was great entertainment. All I can say about it. Two and half hours well spent. Obvously I didn't like some parts (idiot Hux for example), but overall it was good 7.5/10. | ||
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
I've never been so antsy in a theatre- like I physically couldn't handle what I watching. Halfway through, I really, really was not enjoying anything that I watching (unless it was Luke, Rey, and Kylo... and once they joined the cruiser, I hated everything). I've never not wanted to be in the theatre. So this experience was really aggravating because I didn't want to be that guy because I knew some of my friends had watched it and enjoyed it. But I couldn't figure out what they could have liked when I was having such a terrible reaction to it. If not for the ending, I was ready to place this as lower than all the prequels combined. I'm not sure where I stand now, which is why I want to see it again and try to give it a second chance, and to try and discover what the heck was going on with the story. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
The New Republic for some reason demobilized like 90% of their troops immediatly after it was created, while still at war with the remnants of the empire post Vader and the Emperor. Then a small portion of ex-Empire troops hidden in the outer reaches of the galaxy creates a massive fleet including a planet-sized Death Star. While all of this was going on the New Republic does nothing. Instead a bunch of people from the old rebellion decide to create a new Resistance to fight the inevitable invasion. Then the First Order destroys pretty much the whole New Republic and all their fleets with a single attack from the Starkiller base. The two movies happens in a period of a few days, not even weeks, and in that period the First Order passed from being a bunch of extremists the New Republic didn't believe was a threat to the new Empire. Maybe stronger than the Empire considering the new ships we saw. The need to recreate a Rebels vs Empire conflict again was so forced it never made any sense. And it is never even explained in the movies, you would expect the new Resistance is the New Republic, not a split rebel force. And that's without even going into the individual characters. The whole idea that having an idiot like Hux in charge is good for the First Order makes no sense. There is no reason why Snoke/Kylo would keep in charge blunder after blunder. In the end they tried to force the old status quo on the universe but it just doesn't work because the First Order just doesn't feel like the same threat. They are too incompetent. Even when the First Order should have had a massive victory, the rebels pull some crazy stunt that should never have worked and soften the blow. | ||
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Falling
Canada11607 Posts
One thing that I guess can't be helped, but I really don't like a Star Wars universe when Luke, Leia, and Han Solo are all dead and we get no time to see Luke as the grand master, the Jedi Returned. It's not as fun a universe- it's like reading the Appendices of the Lord of the Rings for the first time. Everyone dies or sails away and just Arwen is left to wander lonely and heartbroken through empty elf-lands. Lord of the Rings is rooted in that sort of tragedy. Star Wars... Star Wars doesn't pull that off very well. Star Wars works well with the sacrificial death, which is why I was even more annoyed with the Rose character. I already didn't like her, but then she selfishly stole Finn's sacrificial death when he was trying to save what was left of the Rebellion (sorry, Resistance). Finn had nothing else going on in the story, and so if they had run out of things for him to do, it seemed to me that this was actually a pretty good ending to his character: the cowardly deserter that ends up giving his life for the sake of others. That's a great story arc. But instead we got (what looks like) an awkward romance to rival Anakin and Padme that literally and metaphorically sideswipes Finn. | ||
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