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Spoilers for the film are in this thread, read at your own peril if you have not seen the movie. No more spoiler tags from page 20 |
On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote:
I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason. This is juxtaposed by Rey training with Luke, how he teaches her to control her emotions, not give in to fear and find her balance. All this time Rey and Kylo get the force-connection thingie going on (not Snoke's doing), where Rey sees Kylo succumbing more and more to the darkness and tries to save him. The rebels learn about FO gathering people somewhere and go on to investigate...
It turns out that it was all for the final stages of Kylo's training, where he's told to kill children in front of their parents and feel the nuances of force as they go into either blind rage or total sorrow. Rey and Lule feel this commotion in the force and go on to see if they can help (that's how we get to have all the characters in one place).
What happens next is that the rebels are trying to free the people while Kylo and Snoke are fighting against Rey and Luke. The good guys come on top eventually which leads to several meaningful scenes:
1. As FO retreats Kylo is boarding the shuttle with seriously battered Snoke. Snoke makes a remark about how they can learn from this and get stronger so they can get back at the rebel scum. Kylo pauses for a moment, impales Snoke on his lightsaber and throws him off the ramp to his death. General Huckley (or whatever his name is) sees this and starts to object but as Kylo turns to face him and he sees into the dark pit inside him he stops. He realizes that Kylo is no longer this whiny boy but a fully realized sith lord. In fear he utters 'Supreme leader is dead, long live the supreme leader' as he removes himself from Kylo's path. There's only one last thing to do for Kylo to free himself from the past - to kill his own mother.
2. Finn runs up to Rey to cheer about the victory together since he missed her so much, but Rey barely notices him. He is heartbroken as he realizes that Rey will never reciprocate in his feelings for her. As he wonders around the battlefield aimlessly, trying to take it all in he discovers Phasma, lying near death somewhere and decides to help her. She is utterly surprised at this, considering their past, but is too weak to object.
3. Luke dies of grievous wounds he suffered during the battle. Content that he was able to aid Leia and the others in this struggle and that the legacy of the force rests well in Rey's hands (maybe possibly also a reveal that Rey is the daughter he had with Mara Jade, who left her at Jakku, which would explain her immense power and connection with Kylo).
Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end.
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On December 19 2017 00:17 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do.
but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie. I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one. I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One.
I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh
Like seriously what were they thinking?
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On December 19 2017 12:56 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:03 ragz_gt wrote:
I can see why a lot of people hated it, but for it to be not just nostalgia jerkfest going forward, it's prob best path.
Now, for a moment, imagine if this movie was about Snoke training Kylo, torturing him both mentally and physically, talking how anger and hate will only make him stronger, all the while gathering a lot of people on one planet for unknown reason. .... Really simple story that deepens the character development for everyone important, setting up for future events nicely and giving us resolution to yet another OT character. No bullshit, not repeating ESB etc. Everyone walks out happy in the end. Wait, are you disappointed that the movie wasn't the plot you just made up?
And to all the haters - I loved it and thought it was perfect in its own flawed way.
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On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote:
I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
Hey there. I consider myself to be a pretty old guard SW fan too, and I really enjoyed the movie too, so don't worry you aren't alone. I think that The scene you are referring to + Show Spoiler +is alluding to the fact that unlike Ben (who has a skywalker heritage), Rey is self-made and her parents are not important/nameless. This is why she only sees her self. You can contrast this to Luke when he entered into the dark side cave in dagoba, and he sees darth vader (his father, but with himself (luke) in the suit).
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All my predictions were wrong!
1. That Phasma would beat Finn in their fight
2. That Snoke was Plagueis (I guess technically still possible?)
3. That Rey was a Kenobi
4. That the Kylo chance to kill Leia scene was misdirection
Also, what did Yoda say to Luke at the very end of their conversation?
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On December 19 2017 10:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars.
It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov)
I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to. The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies. So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine. But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that.
I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest.
Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like:
+ Show Spoiler +
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side.
- TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy.
- TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes.
- TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems
- etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative.
Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered.
Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
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Canada8989 Posts
On December 19 2017 13:14 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 00:17 blade55555 wrote:On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do.
but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie. I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one. I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One. I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh Like seriously what were they thinking?
I mean you can dislike the movie or even hate it but it was clearly not a pile of crap, on it's own it's a pretty competent movie with some overstretch moments, probably to many characters, some toy selling characters and a bit of incoherence in the plot but nothing particularly jarring.
If it wasn't Star wars almost no one would say it's a trash film, it's full of amazing performance, a very good cinematography and soundtrack, there is some great characters building between Kylo and Rey and overall it's still a pretty compelling and logical plot. It's two thing to hate it as the continuation of the Star wars story and to hate it has a movie.
Of course you can dislike the movie but it's not like it was Jupiter Ascending of some other disastrous blockbuster movie. I would be very surprise if a lot of casual viewers really hated this movie.
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On December 19 2017 13:42 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 13:14 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 19 2017 00:17 blade55555 wrote:On December 18 2017 21:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i was thinking the same about Finn scene and about the space jump from rebels ship,Why the other ship didnt just do the same and avoid it? they knew what the other ship was trying to do.
but i also think that if you are going to critic the movie that way you can murder a new hope as well.or pretty much any great movie. I disagree. The original trilogy had it's flaws, but not anywhere near like this movie did. I'm glad you enjoyed it, I wish I could have, but there were a ton of flaws in this movie that bugged me to no end. This is the only Star Wars movie I truly hate btw, I didn't think there would come a day I would hate one tbh. I didn't like Phantom Menace that much and is easily my least favorite movie, but I didn't hate it like this one. I'm far from the only one as seen in this thread and other online places. The reception to this movie is so different than TFA and Rogue One. I agree with this completely. This movie was an abysmal pilr of utter crap. Nonsense scenes, stupid comedy breaks, random dialogues. What the hell. Who... what... how.... ugh Like seriously what were they thinking? I mean you can dislike the movie or even hate it but it was clearly not a pile of crap, on it's own it's a pretty competent movie with some overstretch moments, probably to many characters, some toy selling characters and a bit of incoherence in the plot but nothing particularly jarring. If it wasn't Star wars almost no one would say it's a trash film, it's full of amazing performance, a very good cinematography and soundtrack, there is some great characters building between Kylo and Rey and overall it's still a pretty compelling and logical plot. It's two thing to hate it as the continuation of the Star wars story and to hate it has a movie. Of course you can dislike the movie but it's not like it was Jupiter Ascending of some other disastrous blockbuster movie. I would be very surprise if a lot of casual viewers really hated this movie.
Yeah I am really take a back by the "a completely pile of crap" and "worse than the prequels" comments.
I feel that what is needed is sufficient perspective to separate your subjective preferences about the movie, and the movie's objective merits and flaws.
I mean there's a guy a few posts up that thinks the movie would be better if Finn went to help Plasma (?!).
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Albert Berneko from the deadspin puts it nicely:
"The movie is in large part about Kylo Ren’s and Luke’s deep ambivalence toward legacy and reverence and destiny, in part because it’s the sequel to a movie that might just as well have been an explicit remake of another one it could never live up to. But it’s no mistake or coincidence that the climax of the movie ends with a big, bold, completely earnest callback to the twin sunset from A New Hope, or that the sight of that twin sunset, and the accompanying instantly recognizable 40-year-old musical cue, are what evidently bring Luke the peace he hasn’t been able to find.
The work was to chop all the concreted shit out of the way and find what’s really worth revering. Well, that necessarily involves taking an ax to things!"
https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631
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On December 19 2017 13:47 calgar wrote:Albert Berneko from the deadspin puts it nicely: "The movie is in large part about Kylo Ren’s and Luke’s deep ambivalence toward legacy and reverence and destiny, in part because it’s the sequel to a movie that might just as well have been an explicit remake of another one it could never live up to. But it’s no mistake or coincidence that the climax of the movie ends with a big, bold, completely earnest callback to the twin sunset from A New Hope, or that the sight of that twin sunset, and the accompanying instantly recognizable 40-year-old musical cue, are what evidently bring Luke the peace he hasn’t been able to find. The work was to chop all the concreted shit out of the way and find what’s really worth revering. Well, that necessarily involves taking an ax to things!" https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/a-list-of-some-of-the-times-the-last-jedi-told-the-olde-1821396631
Yea - my only worry is that I hope JJ Abrams has the sense to build from what TLJ has done, rather than try his best to ret-con stuff that he does not like. I think that if the next movie has yet another revelation about the TRUE parents of some of the characters - that would be incredibly lame, and would manage to make just about everyone who watches the movie unhappy.
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Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
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On December 19 2017 13:54 LegalLord wrote:
Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring.
Well, rather sadly, our geek community is easily polarized and has in the past done plenty of things like reviewing bombing stuff on Steam.
Also, I would imagine that there's quite a bit of selection bias going on with the user reviews, because only those who feel especially strongly about the movie will bother to leave a review.
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United States12240 Posts
On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote:
I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again.
I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her?
The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
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On December 19 2017 15:39 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote:
I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again. I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her? The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
My impression was that she wanted desperately to know that her parents were important people, but they weren't. There was nobody coming to save her so she saw she was all alone. Why did the DS locus show her that? I don't know. The DS should be capable of showing her a lie that draws her further away from the light. But in the end it's about resolving that the DS has nothing to offer her, just as Luke doesn't.
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Canada8989 Posts
On December 19 2017 15:39 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 11:00 saocyn wrote:
I'm not going to join on this cynical bashing so i'll change the subject, as i've thoroughly enjoyed the film.
The Scene when rey starts awakening her force, and she goes deep into a well with the mirror, what was the mirror and the reflections symbolizing? it was such an odd scene only to amount to nothing after the mirror simply revealed to her, her reflection again. I didn't really understand that either. The pit was supposed to contain massive dark power, and it was eerie when she went there and found herself alone. I got the impression that she was willing to give into the dark side if it gave her the answers that she sought. When she just saw her reflection, what was that supposed to convey, and how was that supposed to tempt her? The only thing I can think of is that there was just emptiness, loneliness, isolation. But there's nothing empowering there. Maybe the point of the dark side is to enrage, frustrate, and torment, and power comes from those feelings of psychological oppression? And maybe Rey just kind of felt nothing, so she just left disappointed and unimpressed. That's quite a leap of logic on my part though and it definitely didn't come off that way in the scene. It was almost like she just shrugged and thought "well this is stupid, the dark side sucks" because it did!
I think it's a reference to Kylo relation to killing the past and cut all connection with his past, I think it told Rey that she didn't own anything to her parents, to Luke, the Jedi or the resistance, she has no destiny and can do whatever she want, she is the only one that matters. It's what Kylo want, to be free of his past, of his ancestry (Snoke, Luke, Han, the Jedi....) and to create his own destiny as this master of the universe, to rule all alone like the emperor or Snoke. But Kylo isn't able to do that because he never manage to truly kill his past or get rid of Rey.
Or maybe it was just to tell Rey that her parent were nobody and the dark side was just fucking around IDK.
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Honestly this movie suffered from a director who had too many things he wanted to show. As such it suffers from pacing issues.
+ Show Spoiler +
The Finn/rose storyline seem to exist in this "we need to get everything done as fast as possible" bubble.
While the Rey/Luke training has a much slower and less rushed bubble where multiple days pass.
Somehow Rey also has tons of force created conversations with Kylo which suggests hes in the same time of time bubble Rey and Luke are given when she has her conversations with him.
Meanwhile Finn's storyline is still supposed to have been done in roughly 8 hours.
Then rush the whole snokes ship infiltration/betrayal into a rushed battle on random planet where (as much as I like Finn and think the actor is really good) he is about to make a huge sacrifice for the resistance (huge huge character development for him) and he gets saved by the asian girl who barely knows him cause shes now in love. (its been a day) while potentially damning the entire resistance to death.
TBH had finn's storyline actually been re written to something important, or they just had him chilling with poe most of the movie, or fuck have him actually escape in the pod at the start and have him do a journey that brings him back would have been more interesting than what they gave us. As it stands now the "rushed" section of the movie (which included most of the early to mid action sequences, comedy, etc...) can be removed and the movie would be better for it.
Dont get me wrong. This is star wars. I still had fun watching it, I still tell my friends that they need to see it. It is not as good as the professional reviewers are hyping it to be. this is at best like 5th or 6th in the line of star wars movies.
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On December 19 2017 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:
Kylo's direction going forward, and for as silly his interstellar skype session with Rey is, it makes both more intriguing character. Finn's role as 2nd protag even though they couldn't figure out quite what to do with him yet. Also, the biggest difference for me is while ESB ending gives a sense of faint hope, TLJ feels more hopelessness even though characters keep mentioning hope, which is only achieved by invalidate the ending on OT, in a "been there, done that, got the scar" but nothing really changed way. I'm very intrigued by how 9 would resolve it.
If you want ignore all that then sure it would be a crappy movie, as would any movie.
So it's the same situation just more hopeless, with a confused secondary protagonist.
Fine, I'll admit to those things. That doesn't change ANY of what I said before, this story is completely unoriginal and it suffers from all kinds of glaring other problems that have already been brought up, your entire defense to my point is that the interstellar skype session was silly and that Finn is a confused character and that the ending is hopeless. That's not a defense at all.
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On December 19 2017 13:38 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 10:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 19 2017 02:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
TLJ doesn't deserve the hate it gets. It has plot problems like any other star wars movie. These are made for children, you don't have to have the most sophisticated plot in that case, convenient writing is always a staple of star wars.
It gets the hate mostly because big star wars fans cannot deal with the direction the movie took. Luke is a broken hero, he despises the legend building around him because he made mistakes and gave up (though at the end he actually reverts to a more positive pov)
I think this is by far the biggest reason people hate it so much, the head canon got destroyed. There absolutely are problems, but also a lot of things it does very well. People actually going as far as rating this as the worst star wars movie are completely ridiculous. The prequels are on such another level of garbage it's not even close (every basic film making concept is worse)
Also people still look at the OT through rose-tinted glasses..
I have issues with the prequels also, but this movie is worse than the prequels for the sole fact that at least the prequels had actual world building and an original plot. Say what you want about Rogue One, but at least the story of Rogue One was totally different than any of the other Star Wars movies, which is admirable considering it needed to tell a story that everyone already knew the ending to. The plots of BOTH of these new movies have been lifted directly out of the Original Trilogy, every single plot point is lifted from the original trilogy, there are even scenes that are almost 100% copy pasted from original trilogy movies. So if you have a problem with plot holes, illogical moments, silly humor and any of the other things that the prequels or the original trilogy have then fine. But this movie (and episode 7) adds the sin of being a complete rehash on top of all of that. It's a poorly done retelling of the same exact plot we've all already seen in the original trilogy. Every dumb decision or pointless character they introduce or don't follow up on just looks worse when you remember that they're doing all of these dumb things just to tell a story that's already been told in the same franchise. It's maddening that no one seems to want to try and defend that. I can understand some people being dissatisfied with the TLJ, but I feel that the critique that has been "lifted directly out of the OT" is really one of the weakest. Sure, if you selectively simplify the movie's plot to incredibly generic points, then yeah you get a similar plot line - basically the usual hero's journey. However to do that you would totally have to ignore things like: + Show Spoiler +
- TLJ deconstructs the idea of the "force", changes the the previous thinking that you have to train people from young to be jedi knights otherwise they will just loose control and join the dark side.
- TLJ throws away the need to be a skywalker or a solo. It also throws away the original bad guy.
- TLJ's new bad guy Kylo does not actually think he is evil, actively wants to kill off the sith - contrast this to the emperor who literally is an evil dude in black robes.
- TLJ also shows you that a skillful pilot blowing up shit can't solve all problems
- etc.
You should get where I am going. Anyway it's pretty contradictory to complain on one hand that the movie destroyed cannon while on other also complaining that it is derivative. Anyway - I am a long time SW fan and I loved TLJ. It made me think about my relationship to this thing which I love so much, and I guess it reminded of me of what is truly the essence of star wars. Having watched the movie I think that SW isn't about the details that we usually nerd about in wookiepedia - it's that feeling of joy that lets you pretend you are a jedi while holding a broom and feeling that you could save the galaxy. In this way the movie delivered. Yes, there are obvious flaws, which I really wish were not there (surviving in space, and unexpected romance).
No dude, this isn't me lifting generic hero's story stuff out of the movie, this movie is LITERALLY following the exact same story plots as Empire Strikes Back. Literally the same plot points. For crying out loud, the entire point of the chase sequences in both movie centers on the same specific point + Show Spoiler + They can't go to lightspeed
This isn't just me generalizing to make a point. I noticed the pattern while I was in the damn theater, on my first viewing on opening day without watching a single trailer or preview going into it, and it made the entire movie predictable in a laughable and cringey way at times. Just because you didn't notice it right away doesn't mean it isn't there.
Mark my words. This movie is going to get roasted later on down the line as more and more people figure out that it's an entirely wasted story. It doesn't build on anything that Force Awakens set up for it, and what plot DOES exist in the movie is completely taken from the Original Trilogy.
The only thing we have to really look forward to in Ep 9 is the Rey and Kylo Ren plot and honestly since that whole plot is just a retelling of the Anakin Skywalker story all over again it frankly just frustrates the hell out of me.
And no, it is not a contradiction to complain about destroying the canon. If Disney wanted to rip up the canon, they could at least do so while telling a new story. These movies are literally repeats of the last story just being told with new characters that don't get any development and a new conflict that barely gets any kind of exposition. FFS I had to read portions of a side book to understand why the Resistance seemingly has no military power despite winning the Galactic Civil War (It's because of a treaty and military dearmament agreement signed after the battle of Jaku)
I'm fine with Disney wanting to go and write a new trilogy and make up whatever random stuff they want, but they could at least do it while telling an original story. Rogue One was 50x more original than either of these movies have been, and that's despite being a side story that only serves to explain the Death Star's weakness.
I'm not criticizing this movie just to be an impossible to please Star Wars fan, I'm criticizing this movie because it deserves to be criticized.
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Finland962 Posts
On December 19 2017 00:31 Pandemona wrote:
Oh well, i am just glad it wasn't just me who thought this was bad and isn't anything wrong with me haha
Don't let others dictate whether you enjoy a movie or not.
On December 19 2017 00:39 Velr wrote:@hexhaven + Show Spoiler +Finn wakes up and immediatly wants to go after Rey. If you argue that he didn't want to go after her, then he wanted to just gtfo but got caught by "girl". I guess the lesson Finn learns according to you he somehow gets when Girl tells him exactly this when he doesn't have a choice anymore anyway because Girl stopped him after he made the choice to rather die then let the ones he hates win? Oh, and then she kisses him because, why not. You don't even know if he learned anything yet. You assume it... Lesson learned by speeder crash and one sentence by "Girl"? I hope Fins character is a bit stronger than that but i doubt it... Rey got the truth about her parents from Kylo, due to a Snoke induced connection? This doesn't seem to be a trustworthy source. But her not having Special parents doesn't bother me at all. As i said, the Ben/Rey interactions were pretty much the best stuff in the movie. No General disagreement on Poe. To bad the story that lead to him "growing" was the by far worst part of the movie. The plan was reckless but not any more reckless than the other "plans" from Ep 4-7 and the reason why this plan even come to be also seemed, uhm, reckless? Whats the reasoning behind: "Lets not tell our highest ranking Pilot(?) that is seen as a hero by much of the crew our plan? No, better make him believe that we just cruise towards death because he needs to learn that following orders/trust his superiors is important - right after he got a knew superiour he didn't know?" A bit of a strange time to teach someone his place/a lesson  Btw: This probably was better than EP 1-2 and maybe 3... But you should see me rant about these :p... "I don't like sand"... I honestly don't remember most of 3 so it was probably not as insulting as 1 and 2 .
In three (relatively) concise points.
+ Show Spoiler +My reading of Finn's arc was that in the beginning he was ready to bail out on the Resistance (or is it now the Rebel Alliance again?) in order to go after Rey. The casino sequence isn't quite as pivotal to the film, but it's pivotal to him. He meets a contrasting viewpoint in DJ's lack of moral guidelines, but in the end decides to affirm his loyalty to a cause that's bigger than him. The movie doesn't say that he's on the fence, he's taken his side.
There's a small chance that Kylo Ren is lying to Rey in order to further his own goals, but I didn't find anything to really support this in the movie. Their shared Force connection after Snoke's death seems to imply that there's something more in store for them, but Rey literally closes the door on him, so I'm not really sure.
Poe disobeyed a direct order from Leia, causing most of the Resistance's fighter pilots to die. He's demoted and Holdo feels that he's too hotheaded to be trusted with the survival of the entire fleet. For Poe, it's about learning to see consequences for his actions, and learning to look at the bigger picture instead of his own glory.
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On December 19 2017 14:00 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 13:54 LegalLord wrote:
Wow. The movie got totally brutalized by user reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. Compare it to TFA ratings even and it kind of sucks. Yes, the fanbase is prone to hyperbole, but I must say I am far less sympathetic to “OT had flaws too” than I was for TFA. The ones here were far more glaring. Well, rather sadly, our geek community is easily polarized and has in the past done plenty of things like reviewing bombing stuff on Steam. Also, I would imagine that there's quite a bit of selection bias going on with the user reviews, because only those who feel especially strongly about the movie will bother to leave a review.
Rogue one and TFA scored 87-88 so clearly your last theory is wrong.
Perhaps, just perhaps, the majority of people ACTUALLY DISLIKED the last jedi?
If this thread is anything to go by, that seems pretty accurate.
In pretty much all of my social circles and gamer chats, the majority disliked the film, stands to reason that it's RT score is low then.
No need to jump to conclusions about "review bombing".
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EPT
