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On July 14 2015 00:38 Fencar wrote:
Is PMS+Tango a viable opening set of starting items for AM if you will mostly be harassed by right clicks in lane, and not so many spells?
Eg. in a 1v1 vs ranged heroes like Windrunner or Puck. Although both of those heroes have nukes, they are dodgeable if you can see them coming in most cases, so would PMS+Tango start be okay here?
I've been doing it against Mirana/Wind and I think it works well.
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That opening seems fine as long as you are planning to play aggressive on them early. You will probably need to ship yourself more regen though, but it will let you trade better early on.
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United States47024 Posts
At that point you may as well start Tango+Salve+Slipper and buy the 2nd Slippers at the side shop after you have 110 gold.
Having to ship regen is not very convenient and if your mid is bottle-crowing, delaying his Bottle just to send a Salve or extra Tangos that you could have started with is very likely to piss them off. The PMS is fantastic for those lanes, but the incremental gain of having a PMS immediately vs. after getting 1-2 creeps is not worth the potential inconvenience if you have to send extra regen.
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On July 14 2015 03:05 TheYango wrote:
At that point you may as well start Tango+Salve+Slipper and buy the 2nd Slippers at the side shop after you have 110 gold.
Having to ship regen is not very convenient and if your mid is bottle-crowing, delaying his Bottle just to send a Salve or extra Tangos that you could have started with is very likely to piss them off. The PMS is fantastic for those lanes, but the incremental gain of having a PMS immediately vs. after getting 1-2 creeps is not worth the potential inconvenience if you have to send extra regen.
Yeah I'd agree with that. You can usually send more regen pretty quick and if the mid opened something like null/wraithband instead of 2x branch then you can probably send the regen in time, but you need to gauge it.
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On July 14 2015 03:05 TheYango wrote:
At that point you may as well start Tango+Salve+Slipper and buy the 2nd Slippers at the side shop after you have 110 gold.
Having to ship regen is not very convenient and if your mid is bottle-crowing, delaying his Bottle just to send a Salve or extra Tangos that you could have started with is very likely to piss them off. The PMS is fantastic for those lanes, but the incremental gain of having a PMS immediately vs. after getting 1-2 creeps is not worth the potential inconvenience if you have to send extra regen.
That's Tango+Salve+Slipper+Stout 
But yeah I used to do that, but I got recommended 2branch instead of the slipper so I've been using that. Maybe not the greatest of ideas to blindly do that. In any case I really liked it since you get your core laning items (PMS, Treads, QB) 100 gold more quickly which I thought was very helpful in lane.
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How do you guys feel about the manta -> moonshard build on AM, with no Vlads? Here's how I see the moonshard vs vlads:
Pros:
+ faster pushing power (attack speed > minion armour+life steal)
+ faster manta = safer vs silences, ect. (although could go manta -> vlads)
+ more damage in teamfights
+ still get vlads benefits if team member gets one
+ vlads is not very useful late game, will get true 6(7) slot faster
Cons:
- less regen (life steal and mana), may have to base more often
- lower hp = safer play in general
- may be difficult to do ancient stacks and rosh
- 3rd item will come slower (moonshard more expensive than vlads)
- no option to get ring of regen early
It almost seems like with the moonshard you are going more towards a spectre idea where you go back to fountain before teamfights. Haven't really tested it my self, but I'm pretty sure you will push towers a lot faster. Thing is, I'm not sure if you will farm faster since you will have to base more often, also if you are lower hp you can't go for more risky farming patterns. Team fight wise, it would be much stronger if you have another vlads on your team since your passive is quite significant in the early-ish parts of the game.
Overall I think it's pretty good getting moonshard after manta, I think Liquid really made it work for them during the qualifiers. It'll be interesting to see if this becomes the new standard build.
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Do people actually get Vlad's after Manta? I never really saw the use for that since by the time you have manta you'll have enough stats for BF regen to be enough to tank creeps.
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if you get vlad's it's definitely before manta... after manta is the point where you can ask a teammate to vlad's and if you're going for 1v9 splitpush you want to be going towards shit like heart bfly or something
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The BF / Manta / BKB / Moon Shard / Heart-build on AM is a frontline siege AM. You can frontline like mad but lack the dive potential with Abyssal. They have two different uses.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On January 12 2016 06:05 AwfuL_ wrote:
Do people actually get Vlad's after Manta? I never really saw the use for that since by the time you have manta you'll have enough stats for BF regen to be enough to tank creeps.
as was said before, vlads should only delay manta by about 2 mins, and vlads ensures ur alway sfull hp, ready to tp to a fight and able to farm in more dangerous places
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United States47024 Posts
On January 12 2016 06:52 ahswtini wrote:
as was said before, vlads should only delay manta by about 2 mins, and vlads ensures ur alway sfull hp, ready to tp to a fight and able to farm in more dangerous places
But there's not really a point to buy the Vlad's after the Manta rather than before, which is the point.
Moon Shard seems quite situational. The fact that Manta Illusions do not benefit from it is a pretty significant downside when it comes to how AM plays at his 2nd/3rd item (and one you overlooked). Your main hero does more damage, but your Manta Illusions will also apply way less pressure when splitpushing because the 4k gold spent on Moon Shard does not make them stronger in any way.
I don't think it competes with Vlad's at all because the two items serve completely different purposes. Comparing them doesn't make much sense.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
i misread, my bad.
naked moonshards is a 'winning really hard' item where u just want to end the game. if ur frontline sieging then surely bfly with its evasion and stats is better
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United States47024 Posts
The thing is, even for sieging, having an item that makes stronger illusions tends to contribute more meaningfully because there are a lot of situations where your illusions get to spend more time hitting buildings than you do in a siege.
Moon Shard's really just pure up-front damage and that's it. It doesn't improve illusions in any way other than the night vision increase, making it less than ideal for sieging. It doesn't provide any survivability like BFly or BKB do, and it doesn't have the utility of Basher. There are games for it, but you have to judge that raw damage is what you need, but you have to understand that you're giving up one of these things until you're 6/7 slotted and have both.
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On January 12 2016 18:16 ahswtini wrote:
i misread, my bad.
naked moonshards is a 'winning really hard' item where u just want to end the game. if ur frontline sieging then surely bfly with its evasion and stats is better
I think of mooonshard as being more of a "oh shit they are going to end the game, i dont have buyback on CD, already have abyssal and can't complete heart / butterfly, BKB isn't helpful, I need an item RIGHT NOW" kind of item.
Pretty much everything else is better.
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any beesa updates on am in this patch? paging beesa
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On January 12 2016 07:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 06:52 ahswtini wrote:
as was said before, vlads should only delay manta by about 2 mins, and vlads ensures ur alway sfull hp, ready to tp to a fight and able to farm in more dangerous places But there's not really a point to buy the Vlad's after the Manta rather than before, which is the point. Moon Shard seems quite situational. The fact that Manta Illusions do not benefit from it is a pretty significant downside when it comes to how AM plays at his 2nd/3rd item (and one you overlooked). Your main hero does more damage, but your Manta Illusions will also apply way less pressure when splitpushing because the 4k gold spent on Moon Shard does not make them stronger in any way. I don't think it competes with Vlad's at all because the two items serve completely different purposes. Comparing them doesn't make much sense.
I don't think early moonshard if for sieging, I think it's main benefits are: faster tower damage, more team fight damage, and an overall earlier 7 slot. All of these, while maintaining comparable farm rate to vlads, the issue I see with basher/blfy/bkb as a 3rd item is that they don't really increase your farm rate (bfly slightly but it's also very expensive). If you skip the vlads these benefits kick in earlier, while if you went BF->vlads->manta->moonshard->w/e, as you point out you will be missing out on a lot of utility/strength from other items (basher is similar price to vlads).
Illusions don't really benefit much from vlads that much either. It would help most in the case where you only split push with your illusions, and you farm elsewhere. But I think the point of moonshard is to push to tower as quickly as possible and do as much damage in the time that you have before some response is forced. One other thing, if you want to have your manta up for a fight it becomes very risky to push with your illusions, so any benefits from illusions are moot anyways.
I wanted to point out the stylistic differences between going Vlads first or going moonshard after manta, these two builds seem to be the most popular at the moment (BF->Vlads->manta has been cookie cutter build for a few months now). That's why I think that these items and play styles should be looked at in particular.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On January 13 2016 04:51 emperorchampion wrote:
I don't think early moonshard if for sieging, I think it's main benefits are: faster tower damage, more team fight damage,
...so for sieging? the faster you can bring down towers, the better when you're looking to high ground. i think you two might have misunderstood each other there.
On January 13 2016 04:51 emperorchampion wrote:
All of these, while maintaining comparable farm rate to vlads, the issue I see with basher/blfy/bkb as a 3rd item is that they don't really increase your farm rate (bfly slightly but it's also very expensive). If you skip the vlads these benefits kick in earlier, while if you went BF->vlads->manta->moonshard->w/e, as you point out you will be missing out on a lot of utility/strength from other items (basher is similar price to vlads).
Illusions don't really benefit much from vlads that much either. It would help most in the case where you only split push with your illusions, and you farm elsewhere. But I think the point of moonshard is to push to tower as quickly as possible and do as much damage in the time that you have before some response is forced. One other thing, if you want to have your manta up for a fight it becomes very risky to push with your illusions, so any benefits from illusions are moot anyways.
I wanted to point out the stylistic differences between going Vlads first or going moonshard after manta, these two builds seem to be the most popular at the moment (BF->Vlads->manta has been cookie cutter build for a few months now). That's why I think that these items and play styles should be looked at in particular.
except moonshard costs twice as much and delays your manta further while providing no armor or lifesteal to do ancient stacks with. that last part, the ancients, will get you to your next item faster than waiting for the additional 2k or buying 1 hyperstone at a time. the attack speed is nice, but like yango said, you'd want it for a different purpose. the dmg, lifesteal, and bit of armor, stats, and regen is too good to pass up at that timing.
by the time you reach your 3rd item is when you're going to start encountering enemy resistance, assuming you're farming 10 cs/min (and you should). that item is usually the one you get bc you know you're going to need to fight bc the enemy is 5 manning AT you or are 5 manning TO you when you are split pushing. and if they aren't meeting you with some sort of resistance, you probably could have bought a dagon and won the game 
there's definitely stylistic differences, but one is clearly better than the other for most, if not all, games at the post-battlefury timing you're looking at. there's a reason its considered cookie cutter!
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On January 13 2016 07:14 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 04:51 emperorchampion wrote:
I don't think early moonshard if for sieging, I think it's main benefits are: faster tower damage, more team fight damage, ...so for sieging? the faster you can bring down towers, the better when you're looking to high ground. i think you two might have misunderstood each other there.
I kind of assume sieging = 5v5 high ground push, where as I'm talking about solo split push.
Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 04:51 emperorchampion wrote:
All of these, while maintaining comparable farm rate to vlads, the issue I see with basher/blfy/bkb as a 3rd item is that they don't really increase your farm rate (bfly slightly but it's also very expensive). If you skip the vlads these benefits kick in earlier, while if you went BF->vlads->manta->moonshard->w/e, as you point out you will be missing out on a lot of utility/strength from other items (basher is similar price to vlads).
Illusions don't really benefit much from vlads that much either. It would help most in the case where you only split push with your illusions, and you farm elsewhere. But I think the point of moonshard is to push to tower as quickly as possible and do as much damage in the time that you have before some response is forced. One other thing, if you want to have your manta up for a fight it becomes very risky to push with your illusions, so any benefits from illusions are moot anyways.
I wanted to point out the stylistic differences between going Vlads first or going moonshard after manta, these two builds seem to be the most popular at the moment (BF->Vlads->manta has been cookie cutter build for a few months now). That's why I think that these items and play styles should be looked at in particular. except moonshard costs twice as much and delays your manta further while providing no armor or lifesteal to do ancient stacks with. that last part, the ancients, will get you to your next item faster than waiting for the additional 2k or buying 1 hyperstone at a time. the attack speed is nice, but like yango said, you'd want it for a different purpose. the dmg, lifesteal, and bit of armor, stats, and regen is too good to pass up at that timing. by the time you reach your 3rd item is when you're going to start encountering enemy resistance, assuming you're farming 10 cs/min (and you should). that item is usually the one you get bc you know you're going to need to fight bc the enemy is 5 manning AT you or are 5 manning TO you when you are split pushing. and if they aren't meeting you with some sort of resistance, you probably could have bought a dagon and won the game there's definitely stylistic differences, but one is clearly better than the other for most, if not all, games at the post-battlefury timing you're looking at. there's a reason its considered cookie cutter!
As I noted earlier ancient stacks and rosh will probably pose a problem for just a hyperstone/manta AM. Overall I'm not sure how the extra attack speed vs more difficulty doing ancient stacks and lower hp will affect farming speed.
If you team has a vlads, then the important stats are already provided in a fight. The 5 man push towards your base is the exact situation where I think moonshard 3rd is best. You want to deal as much damage to towers as possible in a short period, then tp to fountain and join your team in a fight.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2016 08:15 emperorchampion wrote:
If you team has a vlads, then the important stats are already provided in a fight. The 5 man push towards your base is the exact situation where I think moonshard 3rd is best. You want to deal as much damage to towers as possible in a short period, then tp to fountain and join your team in a fight.
Except in that position, Shard is a suboptimal teamfighting item because you don't have the critical mass survivability from levels that allows you to just jump in and kill people with a damage item. Having a survivability item like BKB increases your teamfight effectiveness more in that case.
It's only in the case where your team is ahead enough that you reached critical mass survivability without committing an item where you actually teamfight better with a pure damage item. It's simply not a luxury you can afford in a losing game because with the way AM works you have to reach that critical mass where you can handle up-front damage since your natural mana denial locks people out of getting a second round of spells and Mana Void punishes people for over-committing spells and and not killing you.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On January 13 2016 08:15 emperorchampion wrote:
I kind of assume sieging = 5v5 high ground push, where as I'm talking about solo split push.
in either scenario/definition, at any tower, the faster you can deal damage to the tower, the better off you are.
On January 13 2016 08:15 emperorchampion wrote:
As I noted earlier ancient stacks and rosh will probably pose a problem for just a hyperstone/manta AM. Overall I'm not sure how the extra attack speed vs more difficulty doing ancient stacks and lower hp will affect farming speed.
If you team has a vlads, then the important stats are already provided in a fight. The 5 man push towards your base is the exact situation where I think moonshard 3rd is best. You want to deal as much damage to towers as possible in a short period, then tp to fountain and join your team in a fight.
if you get a hyperstone, im like 95% sure you cannot solo ancient stacks with just a battlefury + hyperstone because you don't have the stats/lifesteal to do it in one go (i assume hyperstone bc its roughly the price of vlads, so the timing would be the same). lets assume im wrong though..even if you could do an ancient stack without the stats/lifesteal you're gonna be deep in the red and, as a result, taking a huge risk. but who knows, maybe it will pay off bc the enemy doesn't have your ancients warded after you get your battlefury. either way once you get your vlads, one of the reasons it will only delay manta by 2min is bc you can do ancient stacks.
(edit) actually this is exactly why you should get vlads over a moon shard if you're debating between the two. you can (in all likelyhood) farm a vlads -> moonshard faster than just a moonshard by itself because of the ancients lol (/edit)
additionally, you used to be able to solo roshan with a certain bf + vlads + yasha (?) timing couldn't you? not 100% if that is the case now or was ever the case. i remember discussing it with someone during TI but can't remember the specifics. maybe someone else will. either way, thats another thing you cannot do with a hyperstone/moon shard
later on in the game someone should have a vlads so you can sell it so thats moot. there are very few circumstances where your team is going to be picking up a vlads that early tho, its rarely ever worth it and supports have other needs to fulfill before they start thinking about an item like that.
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EPT
