EPT[Hero] Anti-Mage - Page 28
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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HighTimeDotA
Canada1412 Posts
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neozxa
Indonesia545 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
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Acetone
United States200 Posts
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
Anyway have a few questions about how to survive the 10-25 min part of the game. Now my issue with the guides to AM is that they generally assume that the game is going “fine” and that your team plays in accordance with the power curve of the AM. This in my experience a big assumption! Particularly when I play in 2-3k mmr area when I play in party. About AM, I am of the opinion that between min 10~25 you are almost useless team fights. Sure you can get a few hits in and if you are lucky to find a hero with a large amount of mana missing you can do decent damage with MV. Generally though you are not going to have a big impact, thus I am rather selective about the team fights I join around this time interval. A typical scenario: I get BF at 13-14min mark, I farm until min ~19 and we have a ~3k net worth lead. Then the Spirit breaker in my team spots someone on the mini map and decided to charge deep into enemy territory and 2-3 guys dive after. However since a big part of our net worth is bound to the AM, but the AM cannot really fight effectively yet, they are more likely than not to lose that fight. Subsequently they lose that fight horribly and then we start losing towers, and by minute 23-24 we have a 5k deficit and they are pushing our high ground. If this scenario happens I have two questions regarding this: 1: Do I understand the power curve of the AM correct? Or is there a way to carry a team fight at the 10-20 min mark with this hero? 2: If you find yourself in that situation at min 19 with treads, BF and ~2k gold, how do itemize in order to become effective in a team fight ASAP? Do you go SY+Crystalys? Desolator+echo? Basher + echo? I understand that this is not the ideal scenario build. But to have treads, BF, manta and basher by min 23-24 when no one is stacking for you (cause no one ever is ^^) and the map is being pressured is a tall order. Anyway, thoughts about this? | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On December 11 2017 22:08 4ZakeN87 wrote: So I am fairly new with AM, played 10-12 games with the hero. Anyway have a few questions about how to survive the 10-25 min part of the game. Now my issue with the guides to AM is that they generally assume that the game is going “fine” and that your team plays in accordance with the power curve of the AM. This in my experience a big assumption! Particularly when I play in 2-3k mmr area when I play in party. About AM, I am of the opinion that between min 10~25 you are almost useless team fights. Sure you can get a few hits in and if you are lucky to find a hero with a large amount of mana missing you can do decent damage with MV. Generally though you are not going to have a big impact, thus I am rather selective about the team fights I join around this time interval. A typical scenario: I get BF at 13-14min mark, I farm until min ~19 and we have a ~3k net worth lead. Then the Spirit breaker in my team spots someone on the mini map and decided to charge deep into enemy territory and 2-3 guys dive after. However since a big part of our net worth is bound to the AM, but the AM cannot really fight effectively yet, they are more likely than not to lose that fight. Subsequently they lose that fight horribly and then we start losing towers, and by minute 23-24 we have a 5k deficit and they are pushing our high ground. If this scenario happens I have two questions regarding this: 1: Do I understand the power curve of the AM correct? Or is there a way to carry a team fight at the 10-20 min mark with this hero? 2: If you find yourself in that situation at min 19 with treads, BF and ~2k gold, how do itemize in order to become effective in a team fight ASAP? Do you go SY+Crystalys? Desolator+echo? Basher + echo? I understand that this is not the ideal scenario build. But to have treads, BF, manta and basher by min 23-24 when no one is stacking for you (cause no one ever is ^^) and the map is being pressured is a tall order. Anyway, thoughts about this? unfortunately no, there are no magic items that make you any better at teamfighting than what would be your natural item progression (manta then abyssal). just focus on split pushing, even when your team does dumb things. you need at least a manta before you begin to fight. this doesn't include situations where a fight happens near a tower and you think you can TP in and make a difference with a mana void. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
Split push and conveying to the team to do less stupid shit is the key after all ^^ Thanks anyway. | ||
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
On December 11 2017 22:08 4ZakeN87 wrote: 2: If you find yourself in that situation at min 19 with treads, BF and ~2k gold, how do itemize in order to become effective in a team fight ASAP? Do you go SY+Crystalys? Desolator+echo? Basher + echo? Yasha. Older builds used Vlad's partly for the armor aura, but that's out-of-meta today. | ||
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Pontual
Brazil3038 Posts
On December 11 2017 22:08 4ZakeN87 wrote: 2: If you find yourself in that situation at min 19 with treads, BF and ~2k gold, how do itemize in order to become effective in a team fight ASAP? Do you go SY+Crystalys? Desolator+echo? Basher + echo? Tbh if you feel the need to help your team as an AM you should just split push, get the other team to hunt you around the map, making space. If they don't then you'll be hitting tier 2 towers and getting too hard to deal with. If you fight you'll be weak, as well as your team. btw learning to make space as a carry and find farm in adverse conditions is mandatory. | ||
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Archeon
3261 Posts
AM is not a midgame brawler and you usually loose a bit gpm when you do that, but if you net a bonus support kill or finish a low hp core you also keep your team's nw up so they can continue making space/hold the line. Btw AM lives mostly in the opponents' safelane jungle. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
people love to gank an AM around this time because pushing power across the board is not high, AM will need help against ganks but the whole team cannot commit, (upon pressure) AM's sustain to keep farming is low, ultimates have high impact on use, and therefore heroes will still be spread out across the map to deal with lanes as they come, etc. when you are moving your creeps down a lane this perhaps gets their best players to come make an attempt on you. you want them to TP in numbers or expend smokes, but obviously not to complete the kill at least without using a lot to do so. your team then learns without you needing to tell them, that their heroes can make moves on their own or spend the time in other ways like getting wards, levels and catching up with a lane. you are right to be selective in the sense that you will get a lot more by farming in lanes and moving opponent heroes back to farm them. you should also not be so mindless as to hit creeps because that is your job. anyone can do that. you judge if their stronger heroes can overestimate and die, and who in the back line cannot maneuver and punish you for claiming a free bag of gold. you also judge where they have been, where they have wards (keeping in mind they must have at least 2 on the map at a time), how they can move, and how much it takes for them to make that move. if you're unsure or they're not doing anything, then you farm closer to their side of jungle until it becomes evident. if you cannot farm faster due to your heroes toolkit and items, then that is because you didn't do enough. you must be ready to creep cut, for instance, the moment the wave appears between towers. if they get a secondary wave to tier 2, they will move to tier 3's, or roshan and subsequently force you back into a fight you cannot take. you're just there to waste their time while you get maximum farm out of it. you have glyph, shrines, towers, all that stuff to help buy bits of time when you need it. your hero can creep cut, has fast movement, can steal runes&bounties and catch solo heroes looking to grab them. your opponent makes mistakes because they can't gauge the threat of your hero or how to deal with it, your team makes mistakes because they're out of moves but they need to make them. so you make the first and correct moves by leaving jungle farm to fall back on and helping your team get power-plays or at least even-chances. farm unsafely by all metrics except your own, keep their heroes poor and give them nothing, or farm so quickly that they can no longer commit and kill you (yet they must). | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On December 12 2017 03:04 Buckyman wrote: Yasha. Older builds used Vlad's partly for the armor aura, but that's out-of-meta today. Meh, you are missing the point of vlads if you were getting it to fight. It had several advantages to its competition and has reasons for it falling out of favor but is still very viable. The main reason to get vlads is a farm accelerent. It opens up ancients and ancient stacks into your farming rotation. This was hurt a bit by careful movement/micro and shrines and also that regen items like clarity/salve can be used while farming. vlads also helped you push a lot harder since your creeps do more damage and tank more tower hits. This was hurt a bit by the nerf to the armor aura but not that significantly. Another huge benefit to the vlads it to punish other split push heroes. You can trade HP for mana when you have a vlads since a blink into the woods and 2-3 camps will usually bring you to full HP. So if the enemy has a Slark, Medusa, Spectre, etc. You can follow them around the map and manfight them and retreat without losing anything significant. This can greatly hurt enemies ability to split farm and is an excellent way to use AM to counter other split push/rat heroes. I mentioned some reasons why it fell out of favor before but one of the bigger ones is that in previous patches there was a lot more fighting early. You didn't have the luxury to go for a vlads because you needed that combat efficiency of the full manta as fast as possible. Even though the vlads probably only delays it by 2 minutes that is still a very critical window you can be missing from. Another reason is that the regen given by the vlads was mitigated by two other items. The first being the change to abyssal blade. Since abyssal went from relic/basher (super offensive item) to vanguard/basher/recipe it gained regen. Enough regen to offset any creep damage so a vlads would be redundant for that effect. They usually have different timings but generally an abyssal is coming right after a manta anyway so there is not really a great reason to the vlads in the interim unless its to punish aforementioned rat heroes. The next item is a linkens. A lot of AM's prioritized safe play over DPS. Linkens is a sacrifice for a damage item but countered that by making AM significantly more survivable which allowed more aggressive split push. In certain games its viable to go battlefury right into Linkens at which point all your regen is covered by the battlefury/linkens. A vlads would be superfluous and would put your combat items back even further than they were already put back. Even if the game doesn't call for an immediate bfury --> linkens many people still enjoy having that item due to the blink CD talent. Blink CD talent drastically increases the mana used by AM during constant blinking. This requires either clarity crowing or an additional item to increase mana regen to constantly support your blinks. Since linkens fits really well with aggressive pushing for AM it can be a natural transition for the item. oh and last thing, since the last patch AM can lifesteal without a vlads. You could feasibly just get a morbid and later on turn it into a satanic for huge DPS and tank. In the current meta vlads is still fine, it's just significantly more situational when it used to be a "90% of the time you need to get this item" type of thing. It's purpose on AM has just been fulfilled by other items and meta shifts as previously the only regen item you would get on AM would be a heart and a battlefury. Now linkens/abyssal two common routes can supplant vlads regen. That combined with the contested lanes and fighting meta that has existed for the last year (until 7.07 or w/e) heavily dissuaded vlads pickups. Getting a quick vlads and travels can be a very good way to contest heroes like Spectre/NP/ETC who don't want to be at teamfights and prefer ratting. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
you highlight many of the points that made it a comfortable item, but people also changed their ways when they saw what people were doing skipping straight to manta. arteezy talks about this many patches ago and mentions timing, but truly, minute 20 was a very important and abusable time for the game. people were still picking zeuses, medusas, slarks, storm spirit, you name it. the item build changed during the same patch that vlads was a 90% item and vlads is now considered quite a noob item in hindsight because it slowed you down more than was necessary. i would say only the top players fully adopted, while most pros were still falling back on vlads as teams started playing gradually faster (and not just in the sense that they're playing pushing heroes). the trend now, as it always has been, is to keep your opponent's relative farm low. but now teams are going out of their way to raise their chances, putting more resources into it and it has a more nuanced set of ideas behind it. this could have worked much more frequently before if players/coaching/captains realized it sooner, but instead we had very obvious late-game teams like EG, EHOME (at times), LGD, Alliance who almost always played for that stage in the game. for the order between abyssal (basher) and butterfly, i still think butterfly almost always come before the basher even, but that's opinion. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On December 21 2017 01:04 nanaoei wrote: great post, but i'd like to say that i feel that replacing the vlads in manta (the actual transition rather than the reasoning) came down to trends created by pro players and having it trickle down as most people were improving as players. you highlight many of the points that made it a comfortable item, but people also changed their ways when they saw what people were doing skipping straight to manta. arteezy talks about this many patches ago and mentions timing, but truly, minute 20 was a very important and abusable time for the game. people were still picking zeuses, medusas, slarks, storm spirit, you name it. the item build changed during the same patch that vlads was a 90% item and vlads is now considered quite a noob item in hindsight because it slowed you down more than was necessary. i would say only the top players fully adopted, while most pros were still falling back on vlads as teams started playing gradually faster (and not just in the sense that they're playing pushing heroes). the trend now, as it always has been, is to keep your opponent's relative farm low. but now teams are going out of their way to raise their chances, putting more resources into it and it has a more nuanced set of ideas behind it. this could have worked much more frequently before if players/coaching/captains realized it sooner, but instead we had very obvious late-game teams like EG, EHOME (at times), LGD, Alliance who almost always played for that stage in the game. for the order between abyssal (basher) and butterfly, i still think butterfly almost always come before the basher even, but that's opinion. I think vlads slows down your manta but hits a similar timing for your 3rd big item. However I think we both agree pros couldn't justify slowing down a manta since typically manta is when AM is combat ready. I think you decide on bfly or abyssal depending on your team and your goals. Bfly is better for teamfighting and split pushing (doing building damage). Basher/abyssal is better for split pushing (forcing larger rotations) and solo pickoffs. The reason I explained vlads is because I think it's important to know why you do things and to not just do them blind. When I was new I didn't understand what were the conditions to pick up vlads on AM and it took me a while to find a good answer. | ||
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Archeon
3261 Posts
But with the accelerated leveling and shrines Vlads isn't really necessary anymore to stay high hp, so it doesn't really accelerate your farm anymore. If you get hunted a lot you can send yourself a salve or get an additional RoH if it is a linkens game. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On December 25 2017 13:09 Archeon wrote: The main reason to get Vlads was so you can clear ancients and stay high hp while pushing sidelanes. If you didn't intend to fight with manta and didn't have a silence to dispell Vlads allowed to farm more aggressively and gave you some bonus stats at your fourth item. But with the accelerated leveling and shrines Vlads isn't really necessary anymore to stay high hp, so it doesn't really accelerate your farm anymore. If you get hunted a lot you can send yourself a salve or get an additional RoH if it is a linkens game. The item had way more possibilities than just that. RoH also builds into a vanguard. It doesn't need to be a linkens game. | ||
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HighCaliburrr
10 Posts
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