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On April 12 2016 04:25 BluemoonSC wrote:
i don't think the original question necessarily meant lion on his own was the issue. its just that in the middle of a fight, getting chain disabled is sort of an issue before BKB.
because there is a way that a lion can pick up a blink dagger before that timing (idk why you brought up the BF timing, really..because teams are still gonna be able to smoke and hunt you down just as easily)
until you get bkb, its definitely best to avoid team fighting, paying close attention to who you can see on the map at all times. otherwise, during a team fight, you absolutely want to wait until your team is already engaged and disables are already spent on other heroes before fighting. if the lion is a good player and is holding onto his hex, it can still be very difficult to properly engage before BKB, so i don't recommend it unless you definitely see both spells being used. at that point, your manta + mana void will be incredibly effective.
to elaborate on the "is he good" question - yes you can really play a lot of heroes currently, and yes some heroes are better than others..but to actually answer the question..
in my opinion, he is fantastic right now. there are 2 really popular int heroes right now, invoker and OD which can be wrecked by your manta + abyssal + mana void combo. but the problem is always getting to those items. both heroes are incredibly mid-game oriented and your spell shield will not help you versus the OD's pure dmg orb. if your other 4 heroes can handle a lot of pressure being caused by the enemy team AND you can get your bfury up without losing a ton of towers/your team feeding these heroes, antimage can do really really well.
oh and do yourself a favor..if the enemy team doesn't have any bkb-piercing and has an OD, don't bother with bkb period. get a butterfly. hex no longer removes evasion and OD absolutely positively never wants to buy an mkb.
Bluemoon is correct; lion himself was never the issue but i guess i wasn't conveying the circumstances well.
My team is behind in net worth, our team is pretty weak and behind (think am top of net worth, rest of my team bottom), and we don't have map control. At that point lion + 1 can have a go at killing me, whereas lion + 2 can certainly kill me (even when i have bkb, if i can't pop it in time), so it becomes very hard to split push. maybe I should have bought wards on my own since it's really tricky for my supports to cross the river or enter the jungle.
in those circumstances where we're behind and i can't seem to be able to split push without getting caught (and subsequently giving off a huge bounty), teamfights seem to be the only option, but as said earlier, since my allies are pretty weak compared to the enemy heroes, it's trivial for the lion to save his spells till i enter the fight as my teammates wouldn't stand a chance to fight their other 4 heroes without me engaging. however, it remains that if i unleash my entire combo on a lion, it's a huge waste unless my mana void hits multiple heroes, but in this instance the lion was pretty far back most of the time.
it may be that the game itself was very close to being un-winnable, but if there is a hero that could carry a team alone against a team with invoker + lion while behind, it should be am - being shut down by their position 4 lion 5 levels below me is pretty frustrating.
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SoCal8910 Posts
its super frustrating, especially when you're not in a 5 stack.
in that scenario (lion +1 or 2), your team needs to take an objective while you quite literally create space for them to do so. if they travel as 4 and get caught by the enemy team, you're clear to push the other towers on the opposite side of the map or attempt to take roshan. that's the only play in a game like that.
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You can always use the manta illusion(s) to scout to make your split pushing safer.
Wards shouldn't really apply, but aren't a bad idea; I mean if you're really ahead and your team is relying on you to carry you are probably going to have 6 slots of important items, but maybe not and then that's fine.
Otherwise a lot goes into the items specifically. Yeah being caught with BKB down is a problem, but if you're plenty farmed you should be able to pop someone at least and you can always blink+bkb, try to pop someone, blink out as BKB goes down and try to reset the situation (or come back in for the big mana void when you can). It doesn't have to be the lion specifically that you target first. Abyssal is maybe not the right item for that situation though? Something like a heart or butterfly may have given you a lot more flexibility where even if you get disabled you may survive. Heart would have probably let you split push and still escape even if Lion jumped you (or just split push better with manta illusions).
Going straight BKB -> Abyssal seems like a win more move from what I've seen. I've seen it done a lot, but typically for games where the AM is steamrolling the opposition and the Abyssal closes things out (specifically shuts down an enemy carry). It seems like most BKB -> Abyssal games are ones on the shorter end and you could argue that getting abyssal makes the game shorter, but I think it's more that you get abyssal when you're looking to end a game where you have a big advantage already.
Otherwise I think Abyssal works better where either you already have something like butterfly/heart/AC (basher -> AC -> Abyssal seems popular too) or you are in a situation where you can rely on your team to soak up a lot of the enemy's attention thereby letting the offensive slant of Abyssal shine. I'm thinking maybe your itemization choice made a hard situation even worse where as butterfly/heart (or even basher + AC) may have let you really handle the enemy team better.
Otherwise in teamfights just don't worry about the Lion with a ghost scepter if you have a BKB. Delete as many of the other heroes as you can and see what happens. Your team, even if they're behind can handle a lion and lion's disables are meaningless if his allies are dead.
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heres a simple tip that all players should know when split pushing. while you are pushing your lane, if you ever feel unsafe, clear the creeps that have immediate vision of you and then go wait in the nearby trees and just stand there. this is 1000% more effective than running back to your jungle, base, tping somewhere else etc.
you will lose 30 seconds max of farming time but you guarantee not only your safety and information on where the opponent is (because they will inevitably show themselves somewhere on the map), but in cases where the main threats appear elsewhere on the map, you are immediately in a position to get right back into the lane and start from where you left off.
this is how you split push; not mindlessly push creeps until a certain point in the lane and then be like "i think this should be enough, ill go somewhere else" or "i wonder where they are? oh 3 guys just jumped me now im dead".
as i said already in my post, i took into consideration the gank threat and teamfight disable threat lion has. either way, a support lion should never be able to give am that much grief. even with blink there is no way a lion can keep up with am's movement across the map and even if he does, if the am plays smart, it will take a massive investment from the enemy to catch am out. if you rinse and repeat this then its only a matter of time before your farm becomes too much for a single lion to shut you down in a teamfight.
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am is pretty bad this patch dont pick it
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On April 12 2016 04:25 BluemoonSC wrote:
in my opinion, he is fantastic right now. there are 2 really popular int heroes right now, invoker and OD which can be wrecked by your manta + abyssal + mana void combo. but the problem is always getting to those items. both heroes are incredibly mid-game oriented and your spell shield will not help you versus the OD's pure dmg orb. if your other 4 heroes can handle a lot of pressure being caused by the enemy team AND you can get your bfury up without losing a ton of towers/your team feeding these heroes, antimage can do really really well.
Just because they are int heroes doesn't mean that AM destroys them. Invoker can screw AM really hard with cold snap whole game long and later he can even solo AM with his combos. AM has advantage once he gets abyssal but that's way too late, if enemy team is capable they will push way before that. OD is even harder to deal with. I'm not sure where this idea that AM can counter OD comes from but it's just not true. OD has pure dmg to go through AM magic resistance and his passive allows him and his team to constantly have high mana so AM ult doesnt mean anything. It looks nice in theory to see how big OD mana pool is and imagine how nice would it be to mana void it, but that mana pool will always be on 100% so it's not an option.
AM is pretty bad right now, not complete shit tier but nowhere near 50%
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another issue is that teams want to be able to fight with all five heroes starting late earlygame and all through the midgame
clearly you don't have to have a team that does this, but teams that are capable of doing this are deifnitely advantaged in this patch
am is not particularly good at it, though he's still capable
naga is bad this patch for similar reasons... well she feels worse but idk
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OD and all his allies usually stay at full mana thx to his aura
good invokers will steal mana with EMP making them hard to mana void
u need a bkb+abyssal+manta to start killing them... its too much
also safelaners and offlaners this patch are generally good vs am
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The only am games I win these days (I only pick it in party games) I end up having to drop boots have a rapier + a backup rapier in 70+ min games.
hero is hard to win with.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On April 13 2016 02:07 Comeh wrote:
The only am games I win these days (I only pick it in party games) I end up having to drop boots have a rapier + a backup rapier in 70+ min games.
hero is hard to win with.
I can see this being the issue. personally, at my level, I can force the enemy team to make a mistake and have one or two people TP while the rest run back and find a pick to victory..but ive played some hard ass games with the hero and thinking about it, I have been able to win on the back of some mistakes and lack of communication.
that being said, I did mention the item requirements to actually be able to do work on the hero against the meta players so my advice wasn't totally incorrect :O
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The new Abyssal Blade seems good on AM. Tried a game where I went Treads, BF into Vanguard instead of Vlads, then Manta. Survivability during jungling felt as strong, although Treads-swapping is more important when blinking without Vlads. The hp and block from Vanguard really made a difference in a couple of necessary early fights, and it felt as if I could skip Heart for a while and either complete the Abyssal Blade or go for another damage item after Basher like Butterfly.
The potential for an earlier blink -> abyssal-manta -> blow up also looks really good. After all, the price of Vanguard being 2150 compared to Vlads' 2275 gold and the total price of Abyssal being reduced by 350 means that AM can get Abyssal Blade 2625 gold earlier. The best part is that rushing Abyssal before 6.87 would make AM seriously squishy, but Vanguard beefs up AM quite a lot. The trade-off is that Abyssal Blade has 60 less damage than before, but the ability to use the active almost twice as often seems worth it by far.
In short, it seems as if the new Abyssal Blade increases AM's early fighting potential by an order of magnitude. Rushing a Vanguard against really hard lanes is also a better choice now thanks to the increased regen of Vanguard (8 hp + 6 hp from BF's Ring of Health means 14 hp per second) and the usefulness of Vanguard when building Abyssal later, but that route is the inferior choice in an optimal game, of course.
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i tried 4-1-1
treads vanguard oov
into battlefury manta abyssal
won a game with 25k gold / 30k xp disadvantage
7.5k avg
oov works on manaburn since last patch now u can max it if ure going vanguard and contribute early its pretty strong
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Not saying anything about the build, but that game was on bulldogs stream and they lost because they went derp and because of lineup. You had invo+tinker highground def and they only melee right clickers. Invo+Tinker pretty much held highground 2v5 for 60sec with you dead without BB because they could never hit buildings against their spam.
Considering vanguard changes the way AM plays at 15min but not at 50min (when u have the same items you would anyway), I dont see how the build had any impact at all that game.
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On April 27 2016 22:42 Kreb wrote:
Not saying anything about the build, but that game was on bulldogs stream and they lost because they went derp and because of lineup. You had invo+tinker highground def and they only melee right clickers. Invo+Tinker pretty much held highground 2v5 for 60sec with you dead without BB because they could never hit buildings against their spam.
Considering vanguard changes the way AM plays at 15min but not at 50min (when u have the same items you would anyway), I dont see how the build had any impact at all that game.
its all a butterfly effect.
me tping to enemy safelane and getting triple kill delayed the game long enough for that to happen
the first time beastmaster lost his big streak was coz his blink dagger got oov'd
im sure we wud have lost much much earlier if these things didnt happen
u cant have 3 heroes that need space that dont create space for each other
so if tinker is busy farming up and pushing all lanes in and invoker jungling what does am do?
its too hard to compare stuff like this coz the outcome is conditional on wut happened not the uncertainty of wut cud have happened
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how do you fellas feel about an early inlane aquila on am for mana/pushing now that there's not much incentive to buy vlads anymore?
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if youre going bfury you dont need it
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
am runs out of slots pretty quickly too because of how fast he farms
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played a game with vanguard into bfury
everything went well
finished both at min 14
aui called me a retard for suggesting it... but seems good
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On April 28 2016 22:23 ChunderBoy wrote:
played a game with vanguard into bfury
everything went well
finished both at min 14
aui called me a retard for suggesting it... but seems good
I will copy this build from now on and pretend i invented it !
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On April 28 2016 22:23 ChunderBoy wrote:
played a game with vanguard into bfury
everything went well
finished both at min 14
aui called me a retard for suggesting it... but seems good
finished both at 14 min? seems like you could have gone vanguard divine rapier and still won the game if your lane was that easy. or maybe you skipped boots entirely
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EPT
