EPT[Hero] Anti-Mage - Page 25
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Clarty
Australia162 Posts
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DazzleEnthusiast
United States72 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On March 25 2016 22:49 DazzleEnthusiast wrote: is Vlad's actually a necessary first or second item after bfury on am if you managed to level up a decent amount of stats before leveling blink/mana burn? it's been a subject of debate, some people like me think it's almost-always-core unless you really need to rush the manta due to a key silence or catch ability that manta can help with; some people think it's primarily good and only worth it if you can take more towers with it and/or push with your team earlier here's the benefits of vlads 1. never have to actually base again unless youre cornered and forced to tp and low enough mana that it's worth it. otherwise, you can always tp to another tower and start farming back up to full hp 2. can do ancient stacks without getting low (or having to slow down by kiting) 3. helps you do more damage to towers when your splitpush isnt responded to quickly due to vlads aura and creeps 4. generally allows you to cut waves in more risky locations 5. makes rosh a lot easier (you wont want to solo it with only bfury + vlads but if you have any teammate that's half decent for rosh with a medallion or something, you can do it then) cons: 1. will eventually have to sell the item for a slot 2. 2300 gold that could be part of your manta 3. bfury + manta is still better for fighting than bfury + vlads + yasha at that timing 4. with absolute free reign, straight bfury -> manta is probably a higher gpm/efficiency build. this is assuming that there's absolutely no pressure that vlads would help with though, and that's a rare situation imo | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On March 25 2016 22:49 DazzleEnthusiast wrote: is Vlad's actually a necessary first or second item after bfury on am if you managed to level up a decent amount of stats before leveling blink/mana burn? it's been discussed a bit in this thread already, imagine urn on spectre serving the same sort of role. first of all, it's a cheap item, aura 5 armor, bonus damage, etc. both urn and vlads are used to sustain HP to farm lane and jungle. only, either of those two items in this example caters differently to spec and AM being spec fights, am farms, and you can get the full urn during laning. -vlads lets you solo rosh as AM 20/24/28 minutes and onwards like most HotD carriers can. -it's almost necessary in those tougher games where you can't show in lane too often. -the ~1mp/s actually translates to 1.2mp/s with battlefury for about 4 total at levels 14-16 and between treads swapping before blinking it helps sustain mana to the point where you're barely losing any. this is because (and i say this because a lot of people overlook this, even at pro level) "...switching to intelligence before casting a spell and going back to strength or agility right after makes you spend a smaller percentage of your mana pool with that spell, as the percentage is calculated with the same absolute cost, but a higher absolute mana pool" (quoting from liquiddota for ease). you save around 1% total mana each use this way on a skill like blink for AM while 20-25% is a manavoid and ~8% is another blink. the point is, it adds up and it's a small detail that really good players focus on adjusting to any hero at all. it's like putting stat items in stash or on the ground while you regen in fountain, it just shaves seconds. the the buildup to manta is tougher for newer players because of the whole jungling and lifesteal idea; it's just a thing. camps are nice, but lanes are better as the game gets later. so to get back to the point and say in the most simple way possible, it's a very convenient and cheap situational item for AM which ends up being good for almost any situation. higher level players will skip vlads to manta to abuse timings, deal with silences, etc, or simply to farm faster in a smaller window because their team and map allow it. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
and i don't really know, personally i use manta to farm most of the early game anyway unless i had a free lane. you manta to lane, potentially dodge/deter gank and gain an extra 0-2 lanes worth of farm while you plan on stacking/jungling. it's just extra utility that you won't see most players using this way. it's understandable to not as there are a bunch of downsides as well. if i'm playing against an AM and i see him doing this i'll infer depending on how quickly i notice the illusions, he's either at camps closer to base (rune-spot illusions), or recently transferred to farming jungle. this opens him up to ganks and to sneak-roshes since you know where he generally is. and i forget to mention this, but you can use these illusions from further away to cut waves in situations where you can't manfight. but have to defend in some way. you'll see naga lineups do this repeatedly and stall a push for minutes at a time. there's literally nothing you can do if you have no creepwave going into their highground, and they aint coming out of the little piggy house. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
Is it a requirement? No. Does it make sense to pick up? Yes. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On March 26 2016 20:33 BluemoonSC wrote: Pls keep in mind that Vlad's before manta should only slow your manta by 2 minutes. Is it a requirement? No. Does it make sense to pick up? Yes. 2mins is with good/undisturbed farm. I'm a strong advocate for vlads for the other reasons people listed like ancients, staying high hp while pushing out lanes, mana regen does help, and not being afraid to just manfight someone solo. You'll have a good manta timing even with vlads (just depends on the game, 2mins is not every case) | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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Archeon
3261 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
whats your ideal non-battlefury, we're just gonna 5 man before 10minutes build | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
On March 29 2016 07:30 BluemoonSC wrote: ok so i just played an impossible early game and decided to go battle void because i knew i wasnt farming for shit. whats your ideal non-battlefury, we're just gonna 5 man before 10minutes build if u decide u want the battlefury after all i think vlads before battlefury is doable some games some mix of vlads, drum, urn, yasha->manta, bkb.... is probably good... | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On March 29 2016 07:30 BluemoonSC wrote: ok so i just played an impossible early game and decided to go battle void because i knew i wasnt farming for shit. whats your ideal non-battlefury, we're just gonna 5 man before 10minutes build I've kind of dicked around with it a bit, treads/urn/vlads and manta/SC is pretty strong. Your mana break does physical, so the solarcrest is a huge bonus. Not sure what order to get the manta/SC in though. I experimented for a game with treads/lotus vs high CC line ups. You can lotus yourself, jump in and basically be immune to hard CC spells since you are super tanky vs them, and they rebound on the supports. This lets your team follow up, or forces the supports to ignore you for 6 seconds. I didn't win that game, but there were other factors, like an offlane Dusa taking my won lane from me and forcing me to jungle. I haven't experimetned a lot. Vlads/yasha/maelstrom is also a decent alternative farming build. I sometimes play it when I have a CM, its just awkward without her because you lack the constant blinks you get from the battlefury mana regen, and CM aura supplants that very nicely. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2168931345 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2061910693 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2035384540 Some of the replays might still be up due to that 3 month thing from Shanghai, if you want any in particular I might have them on my PC. All of them have dotabuff+ though so you can analyze the stats from that if you desire. | ||
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the bear jew
United States3674 Posts
On March 29 2016 07:30 BluemoonSC wrote: ok so i just played an impossible early game and decided to go battle void because i knew i wasnt farming for shit. whats your ideal non-battlefury, we're just gonna 5 man before 10minutes build Vanguard into abyssal Artes style? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On March 29 2016 07:30 BluemoonSC wrote: ok so i just played an impossible early game and decided to go battle void because i knew i wasnt farming for shit. whats your ideal non-battlefury, we're just gonna 5 man before 10minutes build Someone asked Burning this question in an interview. This was his response (obviously pre-rubberband yada yada but still applies): " Anti-mage’s strength lies in overwhelming the opposition with items. If he can’t lead in terms of items, then he actually can’t out-fight many other lategame heroes. So don’t get Vanguard on him, just rush that fast Battlefury and farm it up." I can't tell if this match is still available but Miracle got absolutely savaged into an 0-7-0 antimage on China servers but quietly just kept farming with treads bfury first and eventually came back off some rubberband kills and his team holding the base well. You'll have a lot easier time making a comeback as AM quietly farming and holding your base than you will 5 manning tower after tower (what does an AM even do in those fights? He's just a creep with a 200-300 dmg aoe nuke) http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2187420441 | ||
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findingthelimit
Hong Kong219 Posts
i went a quick bkb abyssal wanting to delete the lion every fight, since just bkb + manta isn't enough damage to lock him down while he's running away. however, by the time i got an abyssal he already has a ghost and he's pretty fast, managing to use ghost before i use abyssal. in the times where i do manage to lock him down, i commit my bkb to blink through his allies, as well as an abyssal just to delete a lion, his teammates just beat me to death afterwards. it's also hard to split push liberally since i can't see him coming with blink. is there a way i can itemize around that? just go standard bfury manta bfly, and tank one of his disables (blinking in after he casts one of his spells? a good lion may just wait for the am to engage before showing himself) | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
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PoulsenB
Poland7712 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8778 Posts
On April 11 2016 09:41 findingthelimit wrote: how do i play this hero against a lion? just had a really tough game which i lost - i went a quick bkb abyssal wanting to delete the lion every fight, since just bkb + manta isn't enough damage to lock him down while he's running away. however, by the time i got an abyssal he already has a ghost and he's pretty fast, managing to use ghost before i use abyssal. in the times where i do manage to lock him down, i commit my bkb to blink through his allies, as well as an abyssal just to delete a lion, his teammates just beat me to death afterwards. it's also hard to split push liberally since i can't see him coming with blink. is there a way i can itemize around that? just go standard bfury manta bfly, and tank one of his disables (blinking in after he casts one of his spells? a good lion may just wait for the am to engage before showing himself) what kind of lion is this? only mid lion should ever be a threat to you on his own, and even then youd have to be at half hp already for him to kill you. a support lion should almost never be a threat to you except for some circumstances where you dont see him coming at all (invis rune, smokes, fog etc), because theres no way a support lion gets out a blink before you have a bfury, and after that point theres no way a lion can chase you around the map with his team just to try and kill you. in teamfights its quite simple. let your teammates engage their team and watch the lion focus his attention to the fight. you blink on him, pop manta, a couple of hits, and mana void for ez kill. in some cases you dont even have to focus on the lion. just let him throw out his disables on your teammates and then jump on their carry or whoever and kill. also, anti mage is always good. stop caring about what hero is 'good' in this 'meta'. what hero is viable in competitive meta only matters for players that are able to play that level in the first place. for everyone else, any hero is viable, its just some are more easier than others. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
because there is a way that a lion can pick up a blink dagger before that timing (idk why you brought up the BF timing, really..because teams are still gonna be able to smoke and hunt you down just as easily) until you get bkb, its definitely best to avoid team fighting, paying close attention to who you can see on the map at all times. otherwise, during a team fight, you absolutely want to wait until your team is already engaged and disables are already spent on other heroes before fighting. if the lion is a good player and is holding onto his hex, it can still be very difficult to properly engage before BKB, so i don't recommend it unless you definitely see both spells being used. at that point, your manta + mana void will be incredibly effective. to elaborate on the "is he good" question - yes you can really play a lot of heroes currently, and yes some heroes are better than others..but to actually answer the question.. in my opinion, he is fantastic right now. there are 2 really popular int heroes right now, invoker and OD which can be wrecked by your manta + abyssal + mana void combo. but the problem is always getting to those items. both heroes are incredibly mid-game oriented and your spell shield will not help you versus the OD's pure dmg orb. if your other 4 heroes can handle a lot of pressure being caused by the enemy team AND you can get your bfury up without losing a ton of towers/your team feeding these heroes, antimage can do really really well. oh and do yourself a favor..if the enemy team doesn't have any bkb-piercing and has an OD, don't bother with bkb period. get a butterfly. hex no longer removes evasion and OD absolutely positively never wants to buy an mkb. | ||
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