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On January 13 2016 08:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2016 08:15 emperorchampion wrote:
If you team has a vlads, then the important stats are already provided in a fight. The 5 man push towards your base is the exact situation where I think moonshard 3rd is best. You want to deal as much damage to towers as possible in a short period, then tp to fountain and join your team in a fight.
Except in that position, Shard is a suboptimal teamfighting item because you don't have the critical mass survivability from levels that allows you to just jump in and kill people with a damage item. Having a survivability item like BKB increases your teamfight effectiveness more in that case. It's only in the case where your team is ahead enough that you reached critical mass survivability without committing an item where you actually teamfight better with a pure damage item.
BKB is probably the worst item for farming though, you also have the option of hyperstone->bkb->moonshard if you really needed it. This is same cost as getting a vlads.
Not sure the second part is true, especially considering heros with escapes and supports with heals or dazzle/oracle/wyvern(rip).
Early hyperstones/moonshard is probably considerably worse in pubs also.
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SoCal8910 Posts
i explained why your 3rd item is usually geared towards fighting in my 1st reply:
by the time you reach your 3rd item is when you're going to start encountering enemy resistance, assuming you're farming 10 cs/min (and you should). that item is usually the one you get bc you know you're going to need to fight bc the enemy is 5 manning AT you or are 5 manning TO you when you are split pushing. and if they aren't meeting you with some sort of resistance, you probably could have bought a dagon and won the game 
as for farming - that was covered in my entire 2nd reply which im not quoting
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United States47024 Posts
On January 13 2016 08:52 emperorchampion wrote:
BKB is probably the worst item for farming though
This is an irrelevant downside because a team that can go high ground against you at 25 minutes is also a team that you probably have inevitability against lategame. Incremental farming speed differences are meaningless against a team that's worse than you lategame anyway. Your priority in that case is just GETTING to lategame.
If you are getting high grounded in 25 minutes by a team that ALSO has inevitability against you lategame, then you are honestly probably fucked regardless of item choice because if a better lategame hero like Spectre is pushing your high ground at 25 minutes something majorly tragic happened in that game.
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SoCal8910 Posts
how do you guys usually build your AM when you know you're gonna be against a dark seer solo off? more points in magic shield? do you ferry regen out or can you get what you'll need right by the horn?
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I also would like to know when if ever multiple spell shield is worthwhile. I think 1 plus stats is the sweet spot, right?
8 tango plus salve start? Assuming a bad laning support or something, yea?
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2 tangoes salve stout and I think you get mana break early and force trades with the ds
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SoCal8910 Posts
with soul ring it didnt seem to matter much and i would gain some temporary space, but sometimes bullying him would cause me to miss some CS. am i aiming to get him so he can't double ion shell? or am i am i just doing what i can to lower his mana so he feels uncomfortable? i felt as though i was climbing an uphill battle.
it was definitely in part to the fact that i had another melee support tho..the guy randomed ogre.. lane was hard.
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yeah you want to trade more with DS, spell shield is okay early, but double ion shell hurts a lot. Generally you should out level the shit out of a dark seer and if you keep his mana relatively low any gank usually results in a kill and you can occasionally solo a careless DS. I think against DS its fine to not go burning and go 3-1-1 or 2-1-2 if you can trade well with him. Forcing him to shell himself means he's not shelling the creep wave.
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SoCal8910 Posts
I'll have to play around with it. If you go for extra points into mana burn, is it generally 3-1-1 as opposed to 2 pts then doing whatever?
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You could just tell your support to go Oracle or Omniknight and just purge the ionshell off the creep, and then DS becomes useless.
Can do same thing with a Chen if he can find a Satyr purger early, and then use the creep to ruin DS' life while Chen stacks hard camps, then at 3-4 stacks he can grab a Wildkin and catch up on farm/levels wiping the stack by which point AM should be able to handle himself.
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get your support to force him out of exp until you're level 3 and hes still hopefully level 1 and stays level 1 for even longer. that is the most important part. the faster ds levels, the more he hurts you can with mana burn help but you have to be careful with leveling it first as always. i wouldnt level it past 2 in laning since you're not going to be hitting him much anyway
secure farm with quelling roh ror (headress -> vlads bif you want to squeeze out slot efficiency)
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manta before vlads is okay imo. even headdress into straight manta. obviously the farming to get there is situational but what the faster manta does offer over the faster vlads (ancients and bouncing to the extra camp) is the pickoff/fighting potential for those few minutes of time. considering yasha offers around the same speed of farming that vlads does, it's not too farfetched a route after you decide what your farming will look like for the next few minutes.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 21 2016 17:36 rabidch wrote:
get your support to force him out of exp until you're level 3 and hes still hopefully level 1 and stays level 1 for even longer. that is the most important part. the faster ds levels, the more he hurts you can with mana burn help but you have to be careful with leveling it first as always. i wouldnt level it past 2 in laning since you're not going to be hitting him much anyway
secure farm with quelling roh ror (headress -> vlads bif you want to squeeze out slot efficiency)
yeah i was watching the replay and catching him was really difficult. you wanna save your blink to get away from the ion shell surge, so its hard to justify using it that liberally..plus you ideally want some points into stats and lvling your mana shield takes away from that. makes sense.
i knew i wanted an early QB so i got the rune and picked one up from the side shop. do i still bother with stout/PMS here? I personally like PMS when i know im gonna get my roh before boots bc im not as nimble, so i take more dmg from creeps without one. plus the extra agi allows me to get more mana break swipes in early/kill the ion shelled creep faster. am i wrong in justifying that purchase?
i definitely knew that my support was going to cause me trouble, but i definitely need to know how to lane against him when i can't rely on my support bc he's a potato or in case of a jungler plus a duo party that goes top together..bc that definitely happens without knowing its gonna happen more often than you'd think, even if i have AM selected lol
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tbh if you miss CS in your first couple of waves it's fine, it's way more important to bully the DS out of the lane early. This is less effective than it used to be because of the extra big camp though since the ds can stay close by and walk down if/when you lose creep equilibrium
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u can 1v1 against ds even without support, though obviously it's much easier if u have someone zone him out
it's not great but u should be able to get pretty reasonable farm
bring extra regen to lane, max spell shield first, and go ror roh hatchet > treads > bfury
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On March 22 2016 04:37 BluemoonSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2016 17:36 rabidch wrote:
get your support to force him out of exp until you're level 3 and hes still hopefully level 1 and stays level 1 for even longer. that is the most important part. the faster ds levels, the more he hurts you can with mana burn help but you have to be careful with leveling it first as always. i wouldnt level it past 2 in laning since you're not going to be hitting him much anyway
secure farm with quelling roh ror (headress -> vlads bif you want to squeeze out slot efficiency) yeah i was watching the replay and catching him was really difficult. you wanna save your blink to get away from the ion shell surge, so its hard to justify using it that liberally..plus you ideally want some points into stats and lvling your mana shield takes away from that. makes sense. i knew i wanted an early QB so i got the rune and picked one up from the side shop. do i still bother with stout/PMS here? I personally like PMS when i know im gonna get my roh before boots bc im not as nimble, so i take more dmg from creeps without one. plus the extra agi allows me to get more mana break swipes in early/kill the ion shelled creep faster. am i wrong in justifying that purchase? i definitely knew that my support was going to cause me trouble, but i definitely need to know how to lane against him when i can't rely on my support bc he's a potato or in case of a jungler plus a duo party that goes top together..bc that definitely happens without knowing its gonna happen more often than you'd think, even if i have AM selected lol
You absolutely need stout/PMS against DS, moreso than vs other offlaners, since DS shoves the wave which means you end up tanking creeps under tower a lot.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 22 2016 09:28 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2016 04:37 BluemoonSC wrote:On March 21 2016 17:36 rabidch wrote:
get your support to force him out of exp until you're level 3 and hes still hopefully level 1 and stays level 1 for even longer. that is the most important part. the faster ds levels, the more he hurts you can with mana burn help but you have to be careful with leveling it first as always. i wouldnt level it past 2 in laning since you're not going to be hitting him much anyway
secure farm with quelling roh ror (headress -> vlads bif you want to squeeze out slot efficiency) yeah i was watching the replay and catching him was really difficult. you wanna save your blink to get away from the ion shell surge, so its hard to justify using it that liberally..plus you ideally want some points into stats and lvling your mana shield takes away from that. makes sense. i knew i wanted an early QB so i got the rune and picked one up from the side shop. do i still bother with stout/PMS here? I personally like PMS when i know im gonna get my roh before boots bc im not as nimble, so i take more dmg from creeps without one. plus the extra agi allows me to get more mana break swipes in early/kill the ion shelled creep faster. am i wrong in justifying that purchase? i definitely knew that my support was going to cause me trouble, but i definitely need to know how to lane against him when i can't rely on my support bc he's a potato or in case of a jungler plus a duo party that goes top together..bc that definitely happens without knowing its gonna happen more often than you'd think, even if i have AM selected lol You absolutely need stout/PMS against DS, moreso than vs other offlaners, since DS shoves the wave which means you end up tanking creeps under tower a lot.
this was in reference to the post i quoted above where we're completely zoning out the DS where we're able to kill the lvl 1 ion shell'd creep. that means the lane wont be shoved nearly as much as you are thinking.
On March 22 2016 08:10 Dead9 wrote:
u can 1v1 against ds even without support, though obviously it's much easier if u have someone zone him out
it's not great but u should be able to get pretty reasonable farm
bring extra regen to lane, max spell shield first, and go ror roh hatchet > treads > bfury
is your last line only if you're soloing the DS? otherwise its conflicting with the information above
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huh conflicting with what information
am does fine against ds 1v1, u generally end up with less than freefarm but its not too bad
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SoCal8910 Posts
On March 22 2016 15:16 Dead9 wrote:
huh conflicting with what information
am does fine against ds 1v1, u generally end up with less than freefarm but its not too bad
Above, people are saying one point in spell shield is sufficient
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ive never tried laning against ds without 3 or 4 points in spell shield
u can probably skip some points with adequate support but its not a hard lane with max spell shield
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EPT
