On February 01 2016 01:54 DucK- wrote: Can't expect w33 to do miracle things since he is no miracle. But while he had bad games, I don't think he was much at fault in recent tournaments (except against Alliance as zeus vs s4 bat...). I think secret's problems are:
1. puppey playing like shit 2. misery having zero impact on many heroes 3. Bad drafts
I think i mostly agree. And probably also them having not so great synergythey have like there are times half of them would commit and other half wouldn't.
I can't remember an EE team that didn't have mediocre to poor teamfight.
What does that even mean? Secret had crazy teamfight execution in their 2nd 1st 1st 2nd streak. C9 had periods of dogshit and periods of drafting magnus mid phoenix offlane into ez wombo combo midgame fights.
It's more nuanced than that but why say something so easily dismissed? Just a worthless throwaway negative opinion with no support.
On January 31 2016 21:42 FuzzyJAM wrote: Dang, some pretty major negativity going on in here. Dota 2 is competitive, guys. Secret could easily have gone further in both their recent tournaments, it's not like they were clearly outclassed. Secret are clearly a team capable of winning tournaments: would anyone here be shocked if they won Shanghai? No, because we know they're good. What more are you expecting from the team? That they be continuously the best in the world? Not going to happen, hasn't happened in years. They could be doing a bit better, there's no question of that, but let's keep expectations in check.
I would be very shocked if they won Shanghai. They don't play like a team at all, based on recent performances.
On February 01 2016 01:54 DucK- wrote: Can't expect w33 to do miracle things since he is no miracle. But while he had bad games, I don't think he was much at fault in recent tournaments (except against Alliance as zeus vs s4 bat...). I think secret's problems are:
1. puppey playing like shit 2. misery having zero impact on many heroes 3. Bad drafts
I think i mostly agree. And probably also them having not so great synergythey have like there are times half of them would commit and other half wouldn't.
I can't remember an EE team that didn't have mediocre to poor teamfight.
What does that even mean? Secret had crazy teamfight execution in their 2nd 1st 1st 2nd streak. C9 had periods of dogshit and periods of drafting magnus mid phoenix offlane into ez wombo combo midgame fights.
It's more nuanced than that but why say something so easily dismissed? Just a worthless throwaway negative opinion with no support.
basically this. Remember when they were killing it with Ember/WR? Also the days in C9 when that literally was their strong point. Going lategame and then forcing massive teamfights that they would somehow pull out ahead of (pre-TI4/Post-TI4; Kaipi). Obviously TI5 C9 (and post Summit 2 C9) and this current secret haven't teamfought well; but Envy teams can't be classified that way in general.
On February 01 2016 01:54 DucK- wrote: Can't expect w33 to do miracle things since he is no miracle. But while he had bad games, I don't think he was much at fault in recent tournaments (except against Alliance as zeus vs s4 bat...). I think secret's problems are:
1. puppey playing like shit 2. misery having zero impact on many heroes 3. Bad drafts
I think i mostly agree. And probably also them having not so great synergythey have like there are times half of them would commit and other half wouldn't.
I can't remember an EE team that didn't have mediocre to poor teamfight.
What does that even mean? Secret had crazy teamfight execution in their 2nd 1st 1st 2nd streak. C9 had periods of dogshit and periods of drafting magnus mid phoenix offlane into ez wombo combo midgame fights.
It's more nuanced than that but why say something so easily dismissed? Just a worthless throwaway negative opinion with no support.
It's not throwaway.
Look at the styles of his teams. It's always the keepaway runaway farm. Rarely to never see them successfully execute anything push oriented or centered around winning a lot of fights. Even in their hot streak, it was about envy running off until he was able to cleanup on his choice hero or w33 gettting a pick rather than group up and fight as opposed to say OG at the Majors.
Saying that they had pro level execution at moments is meaningless. More often than not, team fights weren't the moments that won them matches- it was the picks or the envy show afterwards. Look at how this iteration of secret is doing with Rosh fights.
I think you're right that Envy is a carry who likes to play keep away Dota a lot. I believe he thinks it's the safest strategy in general.
However, that's not to say he (or his teams) can't do team fighting - C9 on multiple occasions executed team fights notably beyond anyone else (seriously, their execution at times was out of this world: most recently, see DAC), and Secret when they were on a roll had some great execution in team fights.
On February 01 2016 01:54 DucK- wrote: Can't expect w33 to do miracle things since he is no miracle. But while he had bad games, I don't think he was much at fault in recent tournaments (except against Alliance as zeus vs s4 bat...). I think secret's problems are:
1. puppey playing like shit 2. misery having zero impact on many heroes 3. Bad drafts
I think i mostly agree. And probably also them having not so great synergythey have like there are times half of them would commit and other half wouldn't.
I can't remember an EE team that didn't have mediocre to poor teamfight.
Others already pointed it out
but even c9 pre-ti5 to ti5 had crazy successful aggression (you know those games where they just run at everybody but when their legendary highground siege comes they suddenly fuck up for some ridiculous reason ) they didn't achieve all those early-midgame advantage through farming they dived heroes and they fought and they won fights. Surely they fucked up somealot of those games but it was the highground sieges or overextensions that killed them those games not the teamfight. They teamfighted well at least for the TI5 c9 roster
Even the old c9 with aui if they didn't pulloff the teamfight later stages of the game then it's not actually possible that they managed to beat almost every team that is not EG/VG/Secret or just win in general against anybody who was not a championship contenders cause they have games where they lost their lanes.
though not exactly the game with the "huge lead due to ripping people apart then throw later" kind of game i was looking for since that was where they had the best teamfight execution
but check out how behind they are with this
Notably the TI5 c9 was out-team fighting the CIS teams themselves leading to that 7-1 record against empire and the 10-3 record against VP.
Though ironically they are so fucking bad against VG who is also an aggressive (which also gets demolished by empire alot) team.
They did prefer doing the envy-show dota with the 1v9 carry games particularly the misery+notail version of c9. But i'm sure the pre-ti5 roster referred to aggression in winning alot of their games(and then retardedly throw later lmao) and the pre-DAC did the farm and stall dota but they still did alot of highground defense reliance
i know that the media can portray things in a certain light but damn, EE looks so cancerous in this video.
I never imagined him different, he is there just as I portrayed him. I am 100% sure he is not someone you can work with in a healthy way. He may be good and passionate but that doesn't translate into bearable/standable.
i know that the media can portray things in a certain light but damn, EE looks so cancerous in this video.
I never imagined him different, he is there just as I portrayed him. I am 100% sure he is not someone you can work with in a healthy way. He may be good and passionate but that doesn't translate into bearable/standable.
Yeah i'm sure his other teammates before also exclaimed how awful it is to play with him xD
i know that the media can portray things in a certain light but damn, EE looks so cancerous in this video.
I never imagined him different, he is there just as I portrayed him. I am 100% sure he is not someone you can work with in a healthy way. He may be good and passionate but that doesn't translate into bearable/standable.
Yeah i'm sure his other teammates before also exclaimed how awful it is to play with him xD
tip of the iceberg guys
I guess it is also a thing of personalities, some may like having a guy like him who shouts and rages (moderately, I mean you don't see him hitting stuff or people, just the way he talks/expresses himself) and find him motivating. But like we see in the documentary, Notail likes to get in the match in a relaxed and comfortable way, where EE may opt for "serious mode on, I don't care if you feel bad because of it I want you to get your shit together".
I had a friend who cursed and insulted you during football matches because he thought people got more serious when flamed and tried to put a better performance to shut him up. For me it was like the stupidest thing to do to your friends, championship match or not, but I can't deny there is people which behave like he expects them to.
This is not even just bone alone who has said Like have you tried looking at other c9 members interview about him. Aui did. Even singsing at one point said envy is a great teammate and that's was the time he wasn't on c9 anymore. Even Jimmy Ho thought envy was nice to play with(who just stood in once for the team). So i really don't understand this impression if his former teammates and other people from the pro scene liked him so it must be from his stream where he rages but everybody rages on pubs, i bet you never seen s4 get frustrated on stream before i have. And maybe the way he talks too but i haven't heard people saying specifically that he's toxic like what happened with aui, cwm , fata.
This could even be just a one time thing, i mean do realize you could make every pro-player sound like that with the correct clip, right ? like dendi, puppey, ppd, rtz, iceiceice even black or universe if you film them during bootcamp or on a event all the time i'm sure you get a clip like that from them and if you posted at the time they got frustrated it would look like they are cancerous as fuck. Everybody gets frustrated and complains it's just the matter of filming it at the right timing but i guess it makes more.
Even suma1l who seems like a big rager doesn't seem to give an impression from eg itself that he's been a complainer just on stream.(if you actually watch him he's not even that bad he's just like every pro who streams as well )
I can understand what you mean about those who flame to motivate their team if you want an example to that, an example to that would be pieliedie according to some of old c9. Like sing said before in one of the TI4 EU hub times (great times) where sing said if envy fucks up the pull even once pieliedie would go spam insults i'll find that clip.(ok maybe not i can't go through all the TI4 eu hub vods too much time gonna be wasted with that)
Honestly, the Misery+NoTail C9 was pretty obviously the only team Envy played on which he didn't think worked (maybe Pie for a bit as well - but that's really just Pie being a dick rather than a team problem). Personality and playstyle clash when you're locked into a roster just before the biggest tournament of your life isn't really the time to make a fair assessment of someone as a whole. You can say Envy didn't deal with those clashes as well as he might - sure - but that's only a big problem if those clashes regularly come up. NoTail was a major disappointment on C9, and maybe that was because the team didn't fit him well or whatever, but that's really on NoTail more than anyone else.
Like, actually think of Envy's C9 teammates: -Sing obviously wanted to still team with him -Pie was kicked but chose to come back and team with him -Aui wanted to stay with the team and has praised him -Bone7 has praised him as a great teammate -Misery decided to still team with him
That's hardly the attitude you expect if he's an awful teammate. So we have Fata and NoTail who presumably weren't his biggest fans at the end. But that really just speaks to the fact that C9 at the end wasn't working rather than a particular player being the problem.
One can spin the clip in different ways. Someone might say EE is raging right before TI, someone might say the team is going from bad to worse and people are just sitting quietly not doing anything about it and EE is the person who tries to get people to wake up and gets emotional about it. The video doesn't really give context on what the issues were in the team originally, what happened in that specific game or whatever. If that's in line with what EE did in the team generally then I can't see it being a good way to go about things, but the clip is mostly out of context.
And to me it's not only EE's outburst that seems somewhat bad in that clip. The way the coach and n0tail react to it doesn't seem like helpful at all to me, they are essentially saying that it shouldn't be discussed because it makes people worry right when it was already brought up in an attempt to fix something, probably leading to even more stress. But again we obviously don't see what happened before or after the clip, maybe they are just tired of EE's constant raging, maybe they don't want to discuss it because the team is too dysfunctional otherwise somehow and they've already tried and failed, maybe they proceed to talk about it right after.
I didn't mean to say he is some kind of EG.Idra, no. What I mean is, he doesn't seem (to me) like the kind of type who constructs but instead just blows steam, you can see the faces of their teammates as he rages and that face doesn't come from people living that experience for the first time, or people finding something useful in that.
That said, I think he is a teammate worth the effort even if he doesn't fit your personality, because he brings knowledge and idiosyncrasy, which for me is more important than a non talking right clicker no matter how fast he clicks. If you are able to tolerate his personality, that is.
What players share with the community about their teammates is mostly lies, white lies if you will, because telling the community EE is a crappy teammate and he should retire because he brings the team down with his never ending whining gives them nothing in return and doing it out of hate is as low as it can get. Of course there is people who may really like playing with him, why not? Not everyone function as we expect them to.
I would even say that of the opinions I heard about teammates, 98.5% were good, and if we go back to before RTZ then 99.5%, maybe chinese players behave differently, but I don't know I don't pay them to much attention.
EPT
