EPTTeam Secret Discussion - Page 128
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
I think their current playstyle will work only if they have a greedy 4 pos who can turn into a reasonable third core kinda like zai/EGM. As it stands, the supports neither get enough ganks early game, nor do they gain enough of an economic advantage through defensive/greedy play. Even in the games they win, both the supports are on the bottom of the net worth chart, even behind the supports of the losing team. As it stands, even with a dual core setup, they don't push early enough, and end up being slowly outfarmed and picked off repeatedly by enemy teams with 3+ cores. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
But I agree that one thing that is a bit problematic is how their supports seem to not get much. In recent times it feels their early game rotations aren't nearly as effective as with a lot of teams, and they also haven't really had too many drafts where they have a committed jungler just farming or where they can take advantage of pulls completely freely. Part of it is probably drafts, part how the supports play individually, and part how the team plays as a whole. After all some early fights that you win and maybe get some t1s are pretty key for getting your supports rolling, which then leads to them not just getting blown out every fight and their item progression can continue. | ||
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goody153
44203 Posts
ES is very good dude, in terms of playmaking. It's the entire secret that needs fixing. It's like a melee but better version of puck On January 30 2016 10:34 Sabu113 wrote: Hey. Why aren't we playing today?... ... ....... that's cause they won !! they won the worst team in the playoffs award | ||
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bagels21
United States4357 Posts
On January 30 2016 18:17 goody153 wrote: I don't know, I dont really like ES mid, though w33ha does well with him. They need a playmaking mid like QoP, who can still scale into the lategame reasonably well. ES is very good dude, in terms of playmaking. It's the entire secret that needs fixing. It's like a melee but better version of puck that's cause they won !! they won the worst team in the playoffs award Still better than CoL Lol Also I like the ES, I think the real problem is that they basically have to run misery as a core and don't really play death ball properly and their guerrilla style of dragging the game out hasn't really worked | ||
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uberxD
412 Posts
I see a support bodyguarding EE I see the other support trying to do "something else" in the map achieving nothing I see a mid who can do well in lane but gets shot down easily I see an offlane with 0 impact I see a Carry that does better than the rest but just because you can't see a big mistake About leadership we know Puppey should be the one in charge of team decision making and shot calling, but it seems he is not interested. I think that's the main issue with this Secret. I'm a puppey fangay but I see an exhausted guy that just keeps playing because of the habit and the money, rather than a competitive will of being the best. I think he was extremely confortable at Secret "2.0" since, as in old Na'Vi days, he could leave a lot of decision making to the players themselves. I'm just speedwriting and probably not giving a concise opinion, but in a TLRD fashion, Secret has teamplay-synergies issues, not "that pick or draft" issue. How many times Secret had lost a game in which they had a very decent advantage? A lot I would say. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
I think it creates a disconnect between the players, and those emotions are what makes them not play well. I still think Puppey is a genius, and if all the players were in on his mindset they'd be winning everything. I think both EE and Puppey are players that would like to distribute the leadership more or less between each other, but especially w33 and Misery have a bit of disconnect there. | ||
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neozxa
Indonesia545 Posts
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
Every player on Secret is plainly top notch, with the arguable exception of Misery - and offlane performance is always dependent on the team more than the reverse. Their current "problem" that I note is that the team has to play around W33. When they do well, they either pick his hero first or utilise a specific hero he likes and work around him - this has always been the case with the roster, even back to Secret vastly overrating Windranger compared to other teams. It's reminiscent of SingSing on C9, really. When W33 does well it's great, but it heavily limits what Secret can do. I don't know how you fix that problem, 'cause I don't know if W33 has it in him to change. | ||
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Darksteel
Finland319 Posts
Afterall Secret took as many games against EHOME as EG did! Everyone applauded Complexity although they finished equal to Secret. I hope my boys don't take losses too hard! | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
If we look at Secret last patch, they were in 4 consecutive finals and won 2 tournaments but it's not like they were dominant through every tournament. They often started out tournaments a bit slow and then won towards the end, but I think the scene was already then relatively close. Then you start losing, maybe lose confidence so you play worse, you don't know fully what you are doing in terms of drafts, and suddenly your tournament results become even significantly worse. Both at SL and here they've still taken games from good teams and dropped out of events in pretty close fashion, I don't think it would take that much for them to suddenly become very competitive again. Maybe there is something more dramatic going on in the team, who knows. Anyway it's very interesting to see what happens in a month in Shanghai. | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On January 31 2016 18:00 neozxa wrote: I miss the secret with s4 and kuro playing carry That was actually the best Secret team iteration  (for me to watch at least) | ||
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bluzi
4703 Posts
On January 31 2016 21:42 FuzzyJAM wrote: Dang, some pretty major negativity going on in here. Dota 2 is competitive, guys. Secret could easily have gone further in both their recent tournaments, it's not like they were clearly outclassed. Secret are clearly a team capable of winning tournaments: would anyone here be shocked if they won Shanghai? No, because we know they're good. What more are you expecting from the team? That they be continuously the best in the world? Not going to happen, hasn't happened in years. They could be doing a bit better, there's no question of that, but let's keep expectations in check. Every player on Secret is plainly top notch, with the arguable exception of Misery - and offlane performance is always dependent on the team more than the reverse. Their current "problem" that I note is that the team has to play around W33. When they do well, they either pick his hero first or utilise a specific hero he likes and work around him - this has always been the case with the roster, even back to Secret vastly overrating Windranger compared to other teams. It's reminiscent of SingSing on C9, really. When W33 does well it's great, but it heavily limits what Secret can do. I don't know how you fix that problem, 'cause I don't know if W33 has it in him to change. They play around EE alot as well , give him TB/Ember and protect him until he gets farm its not all about W33 , i would agree that they are a top team and aside from EG there isnt any team that you can 100% be sure of getting top 4 in a stacked tourny (and even EG having it really rough). the most glaring issue for me is the team play , they got so used to playing around a no #1 for the first 10-15 (until he gets farm , and sometimes even more) that once the meta became push based again they are having harder time stalling the games , they should and could run a mean Chen lineups that takes towers and pressure , and i believe they will show a different side of their game (not the stall until EE carry us dota they played recently). | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On January 31 2016 23:23 bluzi wrote: They play around EE alot as well , give him TB/Ember and protect him until he gets farm its not all about W33 , i would agree that they are a top team and aside from EG there isnt any team that you can 100% be sure of getting top 4 in a stacked tourny (and even EG having it really rough). the most glaring issue for me is the team play , they got so used to playing around a no #1 for the first 10-15 (until he gets farm , and sometimes even more) that once the meta became push based again they are having harder time stalling the games , they should and could run a mean Chen lineups that takes towers and pressure , and i believe they will show a different side of their game (not the stall until EE carry us dota they played recently). When I say "play around", I don't just mean farm priority. If you look at picks, even when Secret play 4p1, it's probable that they picked a W33 hero first. They rotate their drafts around W33. It's a mindset of "Well this is what allows W33 to do good - so let's go for that, and then everyone else has to work around it." And unlike Miracle, W33's not good enough for that to consistently work. When they give a lot of support to EE, W33 is often bad. This tournament there were a couple of strong ES games from W33 where he could be described as an enabler, which is great, but that's about it. And even there, they had to give him an atypical, ludicrously strong hero for him to pull it off. Of course I'm over-emphasising my point to draw attention to it, W33's a great player, etc., but it's the one thing I've consistently noted about Secret that seems to be holding them back. | ||
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Kabras
Romania3508 Posts
On February 01 2016 00:40 FuzzyJAM wrote: When I say "play around", I don't just mean farm priority. If you look at picks, even when Secret play 4p1, it's probable that they picked a W33 hero first. They rotate their drafts around W33. It's a mindset of "Well this is what allows W33 to do good - so let's go for that, and then everyone else has to work around it." And unlike Miracle, W33's not good enough for that to consistently work. When they give a lot of support to EE, W33 is often bad. This tournament there were a couple of strong ES games from W33 where he could be described as an enabler, which is great, but that's about it. And even there, they had to give him an atypical, ludicrously strong hero for him to pull it off. Of course I'm over-emphasising my point to draw attention to it, W33's a great player, etc., but it's the one thing I've consistently noted about Secret that seems to be holding them back. what about puppey's terrible ass play since the major? what about misery being a waste of a player slot in 80% of their games? what about pld and envy feeds? w33 this w33 that, everyone talks about him cuz he's the only one doing anything while his team's literally filler in most games. stop with the mindset bullshit and over analysis, they're all god damn terrible. what's holding them back is not having a semi competent offlaner and being an ee team, that's what's holding them back. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
1. puppey playing like shit 2. misery having zero impact on many heroes 3. Bad drafts | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
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goody153
44203 Posts
On February 01 2016 01:54 DucK- wrote: Can't expect w33 to do miracle things since he is no miracle. But while he had bad games, I don't think he was much at fault in recent tournaments (except against Alliance as zeus vs s4 bat...). I think secret's problems are: 1. puppey playing like shit 2. misery having zero impact on many heroes 3. Bad drafts I think i mostly agree. And probably also them having not so great synergythey have like there are times half of them would commit and other half wouldn't. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11068 Posts
On February 01 2016 03:57 goody153 wrote: I think i mostly agree. And probably also them having not so great synergythey have like there are times half of them would commit and other half wouldn't. I can't remember an EE team that didn't have mediocre to poor teamfight. | ||
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brinepumps
Indonesia753 Posts
A joy to watch most probably | ||
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